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View Full Version : bizzar people encounter/safty on thru hikes..real experiences that where unsafe!



nighthiker
10-21-2010, 07:48
Reading lots of unsafe people appraoches on thru hiking news around the internet on different sites.

Looking for (thru hiker vets ) with TRUE experiences of [ Lucky not to be harmed or taken advantage off situations ] I.E hitches, gear taken, night time approaches, other then the old stand by answers,,,,,just tell them your group is coming up behind you!

DBRIGGS9
10-21-2010, 09:45
What are you asking?

Slo-go'en
10-21-2010, 10:28
I think he is asking if anyone has had an encounter with a strange or dangerous person(s) while on or near the trail and what did they do about it.

So Far
10-21-2010, 11:15
You will be so tired sore and hungry you wont even care if someone harms you.

Buzz Saw
10-21-2010, 11:40
So Far, this guys trying to get a handle on the trail and you who claims to be a thru can only give a dumb a** answer. If you can't give constructive help why don't you just leave it along. As the saying goes nobody likes a smart A**.

Red Hat
10-21-2010, 11:56
There was not one time in my hike from GA to ME last year where I felt uncomfortable on the trail. I did get a hitch with one guy who wanted to show me where trail went that made me a little uncomfortable, so I asked if he would just take me to town and he did.

sbhikes
10-21-2010, 12:59
I never felt uncomfortable on the PCT except for one time. I met a man carrying an axe walking toward me on the trail. He seemed a little odd. He said he had just done some trail maintenance. He was wearing an old t-shirt that said US forest service but he didn't look official. I had seen a truck parked at the last road crossing so I figured he must have been legit but I wasn't sure. There was just something wierd about him. I didn't talk to him for very long. Soon after I passed him, I saw where he had removed a big tree from the trail. I felt a lot better then.

Luddite
10-21-2010, 13:05
"bizzar people encounter"? Thru-hikers. :p

Hitchhiking sounds scary in theory but once you do it you'll realize its not dangerous at all.

Iceaxe
10-21-2010, 13:10
I heard about some scary hitches my fellow thru's had on the PCT. I myself have never had sketchy experience on a hitch or on the trail. Although I was a bit intimidated by some of the traffic on the CDT in Wyoming where it follows roads.
My defense was to hike a little past dark and camp off in the grease brush away from the road or trail. It helps to have a small tent of a pale color. Generally if you camp at least 50 feet from the trail, out of site, you are going to be alone and safe. If you go 100 feet you might as well be invisible. On the PCT and CDT I almost always hiked until it was dark, camped off-trail, and cowboyed (No tent) a lot so maybe that was why I never felt in danger as it would be near impossible for anyone to stumble upon me.
Sometimes the few people I met would ask the usual questions but then also ask where I would be camping that night. This always raised warning flags especially since I was alone for 95% of the CDT. I believe they were just innocently curious but I would just tell them "Where ever my head hits the sand" which was not a lie. Also it is kinda hard to tell them anyways cause I rarely chose a site ahead of time and did not know where myself!
When Resupplying:
Before every hitch I would get my wallet out of my pack and keep it on me the whole time I was in town resupplying.
Another good rule I learned from other hikers on the PCT is: Never let your pack out of your site. If you get a hitch in a small car and the person wants to put your pack in the trunk just say your superstitious and you'll keep your pack on your lap.
A lot of times you might end up with your pack in the back seat while you ride in the front. Always tell the person "I am going to get my pack from the back" when exiting the vehicle and be sure to leave the passenger door open while you do this.

I always think the best of people first but that does not mean I take foolish risks with strangers.
Although looking back now I really never had a bad hitch or met a sketchy person on the PCT or the CDT. On the Pacific Crest most folks you meet are other thru's, section hikers, dayhikers, and overnighters (with HUGE backpacks!) and their is a real feeling of cameraderie on the trail. On the Divide I would go weeks without seeing another person on the trail. I went from Pie Town New Mexico to Far Northern Wyoming without seeing another CDT'er of any kind. There just are'nt a lot of folks out there. The only time I worried there was during resupllies in towns. These long trails have restored my faith in humanity.

Okay, I am going to say something kinda metaphysical here so i put this down at the bottom of my post. Take or leave this, it is just my opinion.
I believe you get back the same energy you project. If you are scared and guarded the folks you meet are going to seem sacred and guarded. I am not saying you influence them since you only just met them. I am saying your emotions color your judgement. If you see the world as being full of people trying to rob you at every turn you just might get robbed. It is like a self fullfilling prophecy. If you project fear the "sharks" are more likely to be drawn to you. Okay, I know folks are saying, "He's a wingnut from California." Yea maybe thats true. I also don't deny there are folks in the world that would take advantage of us. What I am suggesting is: Your attitude and what you project are the first line of defense. Agression begets agression etc. Okay I will go back to my hippie commune now and eat some organic granola flakes while I bliss out and meditate. :sun OOOHHMMM!

sbhikes
10-21-2010, 13:34
It's true, Iceaxe, no matter how hippie-dippie it may sound.

I went out there with the attitude that magic was always going to happen to me. I got rides from people who NEVER give rides to people. And I would sometimes get them simply by seeing the car approach and thinking, "Hey! There's my ride!" They'd turn out to be really nice people. They'd say "we're nice people and we never pick up hitchhikers." Some were old, which was even more amazing.

As long as I had that attitude I seemed to get everything I wanted. On the otherhand, I met a young lady who would storm around in a big huff because nothing ever went her way. And nothing ever did. I never saw so many bad things happen to someone. Everything from chafing to not getting rides to getting stuck in a town vortex for over 2 weeks.

Attitude does matter a lot.

DBRIGGS9
10-21-2010, 13:35
One time I hitched a ride from a younger girl, 25 perhaps, who had relatively fresh cut marks on her wrists (not completely healed) and was driving us about 60mph down these winding mountain roads in North Carolina. Most scared I've been in a while.

max patch
10-21-2010, 13:47
Hitchhiking sounds scary in theory but once you do it you'll realize its not dangerous at all.

It depends on who picks you up.

Like everyone (except for the one guy who did not get in a car at any time during his thru) I hitched into many towns. The only time I was scared on my thru when I was picked up by a 20ish male who literally drove 100mph on a fairly busy road and kept turning around to see who was behind him. I demanded he stop and let me out and he did. There was also the group of 4 thrus and a dog who got a hitch from a guy in a pickup. They sat in the bed. The driver took a corner too fast and overturned. Luckily everyone was thrown clear with no injuries except a few bruises. Lucky everyone wasn't killed.

Jester2000
10-21-2010, 13:53
So Far, this guys trying to get a handle on the trail and you who claims to be a thru can only give a dumb a** answer. If you can't give constructive help why don't you just leave it along. As the saying goes nobody likes a smart A**.

Actually, lots of people like smartasses. What people don't like are people who get offended on other people's behalf.

I saw a post asking for a clarification, one that interpreted the original post for that poster, and a post that was funny mainly because there was a kernel of truth in it.

As far as my experiences go, I've had one instance where I didn't feel good about the two people I met as I approached a shelter. It was the two of them and I. When they asked me if I was staying, I said that I was just signing the register for my friends behind and moving on, which ended up involving some night hiking. Almost all of us have tents with us -- and those who don't should have some kind of shelter. It's easy to walk away from this kind of uncomfortable situation.

But it's important to trust your gut. If you're wrong, you haven't really lost anything as a result.

As far as hitching goes, I've never had a problem. The one time I had a guy pull up who was drinking while driving, I asked him if the direction I was hitching led to a town I knew to be in the opposite direction. He said no, and I thanked him and pretended to start hitching that way.

As I think was already mentioned, although I frequently have my wallet in my pack while hiking, I remove it & have it on my person while hitching. You never know when someone might try to drive off with your pack.

Despite the seeming rise in on-trail crime, I think it's still incredibly safe to be out there. Just pay attention to your surroundings.

Moose2001
10-21-2010, 14:08
The only time I've been scared was during a hitch in Vermont. Guy in a pickup stopped for us. One of us in the cab....one in the back. After he pulled out, I figured out he was drunk! And I mean REALLY drunk. He couldn't stay between the lines. Quickly found a spot for him to pull over.....damn, we forgot something back there....and sent him on his way.

Torch09
10-21-2010, 15:22
In tenessee on the northbound leg of my 2009 flip flop, I met a young girl (23?) hiking sobo who claimed to have been 'trail stalked' by an older guy (50?) who i had met a few days prior. Appearently, she was able to lose him by getting an early start one day and staying in a town, while he continued hiking thinking he would catch her at the next shelter.

kayak karl
10-21-2010, 15:26
use your city street smarts, if you from the country, God help you.

DBRIGGS9
10-21-2010, 15:45
use your city street smarts, if you from the country, God help you.

hahaha, i like that

greenmtnboy
10-21-2010, 16:15
In tenessee on the northbound leg of my 2009 flip flop, I met a young girl (23?) hiking sobo who claimed to have been 'trail stalked' by an older guy (50?) who i had met a few days prior. Appearently, she was able to lose him by getting an early start one day and staying in a town, while he continued hiking thinking he would catch her at the next shelter.

Sounds like paranoia to me, what was her fear based on?

"Everyone in the world is quite mad, except for me and thee. And sometimes I have my doubts about thee."

So Far
10-21-2010, 17:07
Wow i guess someone didnt get the joke...I have idea people shouldnt take everything so GD serious...Which i learned on my 2010 Thru-hike...When did u thru???

Sugarfoot
10-21-2010, 17:08
In 17 consecutive years of hiking the AT, I've met one questionable gentleman, aside from Ward Leonard. In May 1998, I came into Peters Mountain Shelter in PA during a nasty thunderstorm. I had nearly been hit crossing the highway just before the shelter (before the overpass (or is it an underpass?) was constructed) and I was not in a good mood. There was a guy pacing in front of the shelter having a conversation with himself and waving a pistol around. A hiker I had met in Duncannon was cowering in the back of the shelter. I don't know what possessed me, but I walked up to the guy and told him to put the gun away, that he was scaring my friend. He did and quickly left the shelter area. I'm a little guy and not threatening to anyone, so I don't know why he did. Other than that, I've never felt unsafe on the trail, except maybe in electrical storms. I don't think I was brave, merely stupid.

Jester2000
10-21-2010, 17:40
In 17 consecutive years of hiking the AT, I've met one questionable gentleman, aside from Ward Leonard.

That was awesome.

And So Far, I agree with you. Taking things seriously is the sort of behavior that can end a hike long before anyone bops you on the head and takes your stuff.

nighthiker
10-21-2010, 18:11
So Far, this guys trying to get a handle on the trail and you who claims to be a thru can only give a dumb a** answer. If you can't give constructive help why don't you just leave it along. As the saying goes nobody likes a smart A**.

Thanks Buzz and Yes, the more I prepare for this Thur and read, one begins to rethink it at this stage, only 4 to 5 months out, at first it sounds ohhh, no worry, I understand ( a city is a city, if you want drugs, you can find them any place on this planet )

nighthiker
10-21-2010, 18:31
The only time I've been scared was during a hitch in Vermont. Guy in a pickup stopped for us. One of us in the cab....one in the back. After he pulled out, I figured out he was drunk! And I mean REALLY drunk. He couldn't stay between the lines. Quickly found a spot for him to pull over.....damn, we forgot something back there....and sent him on his way.

A lot of sound advise and I like the ideas of Attitude begets attitude, its just as I get closer to the start date, my support team is freakin SO i am trying to push it back to their fears of me leaving, but not pushing it yet, an trying to think of how i CAN spin it positive to the comments, i.e. well, sorry you dont like to take adventures and cant trust people....

nighthiker
10-21-2010, 18:40
This was all very helpful. so funny, the people closest to you scare ya the most....dang! then when your out on the trail, they be asking all kinds of questions....oh whats it like, blah blah blah...perhaps I should leave my damn cell phone hike and just have a blast.....2011 lets get steppin!:eek::-?;):confused::o:banana:welcome

leaftye
10-21-2010, 20:11
I'm the most dangerous person I've met on the trail. I've tried to kill myself several times, caused long term injuries and thoroughly emptied my pockets. I'm not really worried about others.

Pony
10-21-2010, 20:14
Yes, ...get steppin. While I met a handful of folks that I didn't care to be around, I never met anyone that I thought was going to harm me. And so you know, So Far's comment was mostly in jest, but there's a kernel of truth. You'll be so exhausted at times that you simply won't care.

Pony
10-21-2010, 20:18
I'm the most dangerous person I've met on the trail. I've tried to kill myself several times, caused long term injuries and thoroughly emptied my pockets. I'm not really worried about others.Seek help man, seriously.:p I met a guy on Avery Peak whose name was Suicidal. I don't think he had any real intentions of hurting himself, but it took him from may til september to get there from Katahdin due to "trail injuries".

Danielsen
10-21-2010, 23:13
Seek help man, seriously.:p I met a guy on Avery Peak whose name was Suicidal. I don't think he had any real intentions of hurting himself, but it took him from may til september to get there from Katahdin due to "trail injuries".

I dated a girl like that once. I was in lifegaurd training at the time so we joked that it was for her sake. :eek:

Jester2000
10-21-2010, 23:56
nighthiker -- I definitely have experience with trying to assuage the woories of the folks back home. It's a difficult thing for a lot of people to process -- that you are, in fact, safer on the trail than almost any other place you'd be (at home, particularly in a city).

But that's mainly because the trail is outside their knowledge base, experience, and comfort level. But given time, they'll get used to you being out there and they'll get to be comfortable with the idea, even if they never truly understand it.

You'll be fine, and in the end so will they.

Jester2000
10-21-2010, 23:57
Um, yeah. That would be "worries" rather than "woories." Whatever they are.

leaftye
10-22-2010, 00:22
Seek help man, seriously.:p I met a guy on Avery Peak whose name was Suicidal. I don't think he had any real intentions of hurting himself, but it took him from may til september to get there from Katahdin due to "trail injuries".

Some people don't realize the risks they take, like when they go off trail without the proper gear or care needed to get back, or not eating enough on a long cold hike, or going without traction/ice aids on a long icy slope, etc. I tend to get careless way more often than I'd like, but of course I don't realize my poor decision(s) until I'm out there or after I get back.

Dogwood
10-22-2010, 01:51
That was a GREAT post IceAxe!!!

I agree with everything you said, especially the last paragraph!

I had no threatening encounters by any animal, on two, four, or no legs, on the AT, PCT, or CDT! Closest thing to a BAD encounter I had was getting dive bombed by a marauding territorial Goshawk protecting its nest on the CDT. Have had black bears come into my camp on two occasions during the night sniffing around. Happened several yrs back when I didn't understand how a messy camp and/or inconsiderate messy cooking could attract wildlife. Have seen lots of rattlers, some coral snakes, several water moccasins(cottonmouths), many copperheads, scorpions, black widow and brown recluse spiders, huge centipedes(more than 10 inches long, THEY have a Painful BITE/STING, gila monsters, wolves, grizzly bears, etc

Never felt fear from anything on trail, but was ALWAYS mindful of my situation and surroundings!

IronGutsTommy
10-22-2010, 02:29
yeah sketchiest times are hitching which is always sketchy. any time a trail towns close enough ill just hike in. when doing over 2000 miles, whats another 3 or 4 to get to a town if the roadsides not too sketchy. but yeah youre more in danger of tweaking an ankle or lymes than bodily or material harm by another human being

Forever North
10-22-2010, 02:29
Attitude is everything. Without the attitude "I am going to make it to Katahdin or die trying." I don't think I would have ever made it. Attitude gives you strength into any situation you may incounter. Being positive about yourself isn't your only weapon in protecting your self.

Your basic "Instinct" for survival will tell you all you need to know. All you have to do is to listen to yourself. At times, I think our world is trying to remove these instints from us, we all have them. So, trust in them. I have spent my fair share of time hiking the AT and other trails, since 1996. In that time I ran into only two times where I thought I just might have to defend myself. Once while I was camped at the Nolichucky River and another time I beleive it was in New Hampshire. The first was with a woodbe biker and the second was with a hiker. To this day I still have no clue how I offended the hiker. He went off on me in front of the other hikers at a shelter. I just sat there listening to him then when he was done I said to him, "Well, I'm sorry you feel that way." He walked off to his tent and I never seen him again.

I have had more close encounters here in the real world (so to speek) then I have ever while hiking. I keep my witts about me and I move on if I don't feel a situation is "Right." The right Attitude and my Instinct is what keeps me safe.

Dogwood
10-22-2010, 02:40
Attitude is everything. Without the attitude "I am going to make it to Katahdin or die trying." I don't think I would have ever made it. Attitude gives you strength into any situation you may incounter. Being positive about yourself isn't your only weapon in protecting your self.

You basic "Instinct" for survival will tell you all you need to know. All you have to do is to listen to yourself. At times, I think our world is trying to remove these instints from us, we all have them. So, trust in them....

I have had more close encounters here in the real world (so to speek) then I have ever while hiking. I keep my witts about me and I move on if I don't feel a situation is "Right." The right Attitude and my Instinct is what keeps me safe.

Well said Forever North!

northernstorm
10-22-2010, 15:14
you're bound to run into some odd folks, but like someone already said, just camp off the trail in the bush somewhere. if anything is going to happen it will be at trail heads, shelters occasionally and possibly on the trail itself. its not going to happen when you are in an unknown location.

StorminMormon
10-22-2010, 16:09
Hopefully I don't catch a lot of flack for posting this, but...

The one thing that I'd like to echo on this is to trust your instincts. Above that...you're going to have to keep your eyes open. I think most people would agree that "bad things" happen when we're not paying attention.

I got into backpacking by way of an interest in wilderness survival. I'm always learning new methods for starting fire, finding water, building huts and debris shelters, and learning about all the things you can and can't eat in the wild. You probably already know about the Rules of 3:

You can survive 3 hours without shelter,
you can survive 3 days without water, and
you can survive 3 weeks without food.

A friend of mine added a new rule to the Rules of 3 and it is: You can survive 3 seconds without thinking. At first I laughed my butt off, but it is so true. When you start to get to the end of your hike and you're beat, dehydrated, hungry, and ready to collapse - that's the worst time, because your brain is literally switching off. You need to dig deep and come up with a few more minutes of brain power to keep you safe. This is MUCH easier when you have someone else with you, but when you're by yourself...it's hard to recognize and fix this drunken state.

I'm have a concealed weapons permit and I carry a pistol everywhere I go. I don't live in fear, but I do have a healthy respect for the human animal. I love my wife and my children and for the most part, I carry on their behalf because I feel an obligation to protect them more than anything.

So, here comes the flak...I would advise anyone to carry "something"..."anything" to protect themselves no matter where they go, but when all is said and done - you're greatest weapon for defense is your mind. So keep it sharp, use it, and don't walk around without it for more than 3 seconds!

TheYoungOne
10-22-2010, 16:22
One time I hitched a ride from a younger girl, 25 perhaps, who had relatively fresh cut marks on her wrists (not completely healed) and was driving us about 60mph down these winding mountain roads in North Carolina. Most scared I've been in a while.

The funny thing is I bet she picked you up as a form of self punishment, thinking that picking up a hitchhiker is dangerous and he is going to hurt me. In the end, you were more afraid of her, and she was probably disappointed.:D

TheYoungOne
10-22-2010, 16:28
I'm have a concealed weapons permit and I carry a pistol everywhere I go. I don't live in fear, but I do have a healthy respect for the human animal. I love my wife and my children and for the most part, I carry on their behalf because I feel an obligation to protect them more than anything.

So, here comes the flak...I would advise anyone to carry "something"..."anything" to protect themselves no matter where they go, but when all is said and done - you're greatest weapon for defense is your mind. So keep it sharp, use it, and don't walk around without it for more than 3 seconds!

No flak here, I carry while I hike too. If you don't want to go the CCW route, its also good to have something like bear spray, or at least a pocket knife or other sharp/hard/heavy object handy when something just doesn't seem right.

I mention this before on another thread, most people living and hiking along the AT are fine, but as with any population, your going to have a few bad seeds.

Pedaling Fool
10-24-2010, 10:33
What I am suggesting is: Your attitude and what you project are the first line of defense. Agression begets agression etc. Okay I will go back to my hippie commune now and eat some organic granola flakes while I bliss out and meditate. :sun OOOHHMMM!
That's great, but we all need second, third...lines of defense. Some of the nicest people are victims. Aggression doesn't always beget aggression, sometimes kindness begets aggression. I know you're not blaming the victim, but it does kind of sound like it when you read your hippie-type mussing;)

bredler
10-24-2010, 12:20
The only time I was a little sketched out was when I ran into a homeless guy who was "hiking" large parts of the trail. In reality he would catch very large hitches (50+ mi) and hike two shelters or so in from a road crossing and hike around that area to panhandle new hikers.

He seemed like a nice enough guy, but all he really wanted was to panhandle drugs and alcohol (which he did) from hikers on the trail. Basically he was a liar and a thief with a pleasant demeanor as long as you were joking with him and getting him loaded.

Iceaxe
10-24-2010, 13:55
"That's great, but we all need second, third...lines of defense. Some of the nicest people are victims. Aggression doesn't always beget aggression, sometimes kindness begets aggression. I know you're not blaming the victim, but it does kind of sound like it when you read your hippie-type mussing;)"
__________________
"The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."
-- Paul Dirac

Okay, I accept that some folks are gonna carry guns. My question to you is: Exactly when is it appropriate for you to use that gun?
Will you shoot someone trying to steal your stuff?
If everyone starts to carry firearms on the trail won't that change the experience?
Seriously, at what point would you be justified, in your mind or the eyes of the law, in pulling out a gun and shooting a person or wildlife?

I am not lambasting your point of view or your right to carry firearms. I own rifles myself but would not personally consider carrying them on the trail because:
1. They are heavy
2. I believe they would destroy the thru hiker experience.
3. A gun is useless against the REAL dangers.. Mosquitos.
Even on the CDT in Grizzly country I quickly realized the only way my rifle, had chosen to carry it, would be of any use to stop a bear or homicidal person would have been to have it loaded and at the ready. I can tell you that even on the Divide, in the middle of nowhere, nobody does this.
I did carry a 7ounce can of Bear repellant pepper spray. The little black can tucked neatly into the side pocket of my MLD Exodus was a comfort. So I suppose I just made your point.. I did have a second line of defense albeit non-lethal.
Interestingly many of the native Montana folks I met also chose to carry pepper spray instead of a firearm. One rancher lady sadi she only carried a gun for her horse or herself! I know.. that one took me by surprise as well!
Anyhow I must revise my previous post and say the first line of defense is attitude, the second could be Pepperspray.. at least on the CDT.
For the AT I really don't see the need for it though.. maybe I am wrong.
One fear I have regarding armed hikers is what would happen to our community. What if most hikers carried handguns? Would trail angels want to help us? Would trail towns still welcome hikers as warmyl if we showed up with firearms.
I know you can conceal them but you just know word would spread. It is interesting that so many people asked me if i carried a gun while hiking these trails. Many were shocked when I said I did not. Perhaps there would not be as big a backlash as I fear if hikers were armed. I dunno but it is fascinating.
So don't get me wrong. I do not want to start a fight over this or cast aspersions on your descision to carry a firearm. My comments are out of geniune curiosity around the issue and this is a trail safety thread.
What do y'all think?

DBRIGGS9
10-24-2010, 14:10
I think carrying a gun is ridiculous. The trail, especially the AT, is not a scary place. If you think you need the protection of a firearm to be safe on the Appalachian Trail, then I'm not so sure you should be on it to begin with.

Pedaling Fool
10-24-2010, 14:52
Okay, I accept that some folks are gonna carry guns. My question to you is: Exactly when is it appropriate for you to use that gun?
Will you shoot someone trying to steal your stuff?
If everyone starts to carry firearms on the trail won't that change the experience?
Seriously, at what point would you be justified, in your mind or the eyes of the law, in pulling out a gun and shooting a person or wildlife?

I am not lambasting your point of view or your right to carry firearms. I own rifles myself but would not personally consider carrying them on the trail because:
1. They are heavy
2. I believe they would destroy the thru hiker experience.
3. A gun is useless against the REAL dangers.. Mosquitos.
Even on the CDT in Grizzly country I quickly realized the only way my rifle, had chosen to carry it, would be of any use to stop a bear or homicidal person would have been to have it loaded and at the ready. I can tell you that even on the Divide, in the middle of nowhere, nobody does this.
I did carry a 7ounce can of Bear repellant pepper spray. The little black can tucked neatly into the side pocket of my MLD Exodus was a comfort. So I suppose I just made your point.. I did have a second line of defense albeit non-lethal.
Interestingly many of the native Montana folks I met also chose to carry pepper spray instead of a firearm. One rancher lady sadi she only carried a gun for her horse or herself! I know.. that one took me by surprise as well!
Anyhow I must revise my previous post and say the first line of defense is attitude, the second could be Pepperspray.. at least on the CDT.
For the AT I really don't see the need for it though.. maybe I am wrong.
One fear I have regarding armed hikers is what would happen to our community. What if most hikers carried handguns? Would trail angels want to help us? Would trail towns still welcome hikers as warmyl if we showed up with firearms.
I know you can conceal them but you just know word would spread. It is interesting that so many people asked me if i carried a gun while hiking these trails. Many were shocked when I said I did not. Perhaps there would not be as big a backlash as I fear if hikers were armed. I dunno but it is fascinating.
So don't get me wrong. I do not want to start a fight over this or cast aspersions on your descision to carry a firearm. My comments are out of geniune curiosity around the issue and this is a trail safety thread.
What do y'all think?
I never said anything about guns. My only point was that a chipper, happy and open attitude can (in some instances) create a possibility of becoming a victim.

I'm very comfortable around guns, been around them for my entire career, but I've never carried on the trail. And I don't care if anyone does, it's their choice.

P.S. Not sayin' I will never carry on the trail, but no one will ever know if I ever do.

Luddite
10-24-2010, 15:03
Learn how to Karate chop and you won't have to carry a gun.

rickb
10-24-2010, 16:33
I think carrying a gun is ridiculous. The trail, especially the AT, is not a scary place. If you think you need the protection of a firearm to be safe on the Appalachian Trail, then I'm not so sure you should be on it to begin with.


If five thru hikers had been killed by bears on the AT (none have) then would it be reasonable for people to discuss special precautions regarding bears?

If five thru hikers had been killed by lightening on the AT (none have) then would it be reasonable to discuss special precautions regarding lightening?

If five thru hikers had been killed by snakes on the AT (none have) then would it be reasonable for people to discuss special precautions regarding snakes?

If five thru hikers had been killed by hypothermia along the AT (none have) then would it be reasonable for people to discuss special precautions regarding hypothermia?

I really don't know how others would answer those questions-- they are entirely hypothetical.

On the other hand 5 thru hikers have been murdered by complete strangers on the AT. To my way of thinking, it is reasonable to consider discussing special precautions even if that fact makes some uncomfortable.

Luddite
10-24-2010, 17:08
5 people in the history of the AT have been murdered? Thats seems negligible to me.

rickb
10-24-2010, 17:17
5 people in the history of the AT have been murdered? Thats seems negligible to me.
Five thru hikers.

waywardfool
10-24-2010, 17:31
5 people in the history of the AT have been murdered? Thats seems negligible to me.

Would it have been so "negligible" to you if one of those five thruhikers happened to be YOU? Or someone you loved?

Luddite
10-24-2010, 18:06
Sure, the number would still be 5. I didn't say I didn't care that people died on the trail, I just said thats a very small number for a 2100 mile long trail. Its a negligible NUMBER. I bet that number would go up if everybody carried guns.

DBRIGGS9
10-24-2010, 18:40
Sure, the number would still be 5. I didn't say I didn't care that people died on the trail, I just said thats a very small number for a 2100 mile long trail. Its a negligible NUMBER. I bet that number would go up if everybody carried guns.

Agreed.

However, if I was a woman I'd consider carrying a taser or pepper spray in my hipbelt pocket.

restless
10-24-2010, 18:48
I think carrying a gun is ridiculous. The trail, especially the AT, is not a scary place. If you think you need the protection of a firearm to be safe on the Appalachian Trail, then I'm not so sure you should be on it to begin with.

Amen.
5 people, while not to discount the tragedies that they were, as Luddite has pointed out, is not a significant number. When you consider the millions of people that have been on the AT over the years, the trail does have a significantly lower crime rate than the rest of the world. The most important weapon we have at our disposal in avoiding crimes on the trail is the one that seems all too often to get left at the trailhead---our brain. God help every hiker if we start relying on a few pounds of metal for our safety on the AT.

Lone Wolf
10-24-2010, 20:09
I think carrying a gun is ridiculous. The trail, especially the AT, is not a scary place. If you think you need the protection of a firearm to be safe on the Appalachian Trail, then I'm not so sure you should be on it to begin with.
wow. clueless

Luddite
10-24-2010, 20:29
wow. clueless

He does make a point but if you feel like carrying a gun it doesn't mean you dont belong on the trail. The ultralight method would be to master the karate chop like I said. I hitchhiked and hopped trains around the country for two years and never needed a gun. The AT is definitely safer than the rails, believe me.

nighthiker
10-24-2010, 20:44
nighthiker -- I definitely have experience with trying to assuage the woories of the folks back home. It's a difficult thing for a lot of people to process -- that you are, in fact, safer on the trail than almost any other place you'd be (at home, particularly in a city).

But that's mainly because the trail is outside their knowledge base, experience, and comfort level. But given time, they'll get used to you being out there and they'll get to be comfortable with the idea, even if they never truly understand it.

You'll be fine, and in the end so will they.


Ya, know that my start date is getting close, the BACK home supports is getting restless...need to shake out the gitters and get stepping it! thanks

nighthiker
10-24-2010, 21:01
If five thru hikers had been killed by bears on the AT (none have) then would it be reasonable for people to discuss special precautions regarding bears?

If five thru hikers had been killed by lightening on the AT (none have) then would it be reasonable to discuss special precautions regarding lightening?

If five thru hikers had been killed by snakes on the AT (none have) then would it be reasonable for people to discuss special precautions regarding snakes?

If five thru hikers had been killed by hypothermia along the AT (none have) then would it be reasonable for people to discuss special precautions regarding hypothermia?

I really don't know how others would answer those questions-- they are entirely hypothetical.

On the other hand 5 thru hikers have been murdered by complete strangers on the AT. To my way of thinking, it is reasonable to consider discussing special precautions even if that fact makes some uncomfortable.


Now you are getiing my question, this is a real threat, hey, not saying I could be shopping late one night and get worse in a Mall parking lot, but this thread is real and it has help mu thus far to do what the AT was designed to accomplish,,,,adventure and overcoming challenges, thanks

nighthiker
10-24-2010, 21:08
Well, all good things said, pro's as well as those ungly things called the con's no pund intended.... All that hike the Appalachian Trail are extremely lucky to have a preserved path or system of paths that require much contemplation, The Thru Hiker just has a few more to contend with over the months of dedication they exert. Where else can hikers experience the GIFT of the Trail Magic or the Luxury of having 250 shelters to assist in the safe passage of roughly 2176 of walking, stepping out and stepping up to the challenge, thru hiker or section or day! What a trail! Thanks to all and we all matter, NIGHTHIKER

DBRIGGS9
10-24-2010, 21:31
Ok, ok. I don't necessarily think that if you want to carry a gun then you shouldn't be on the trail. I think it's silly, but I'm all for you exercising your right to have a gun on trail. I just don't care to myself.

weary
10-25-2010, 11:47
I hadn't hitch hiked in more than 40 years when I did the trail in 1993. I was a bit nervous for the first couple of hitches and then it became fun. It was nice meeting and talking to local people. The only time I was worried was after I had gotten into a car and discovered everyone was nursing a beer. They were more than friendly. But were a bit irratic on the road. I told them I needed to stop at the post office, which turned out to be closed. They offered to wait until it opened, but I lied and said I was meeting someone in town and they drove away.

Otherwise it was a thoroughly enjoyable trip -- including the wilds of New Jersey with its prowling bears.

Weary

sherrill
10-25-2010, 12:16
the Luxury of having 250 shelters

Have you ever slept in a shelter? :D

Trailbender
10-25-2010, 12:36
I carry a gun for the same reason that I keep a first aid kit and fire extinguisher in my car. I don't carry when I hike though.

As for when to use a gun? That one isn't hard at all. When they present a weapon in a threatening manner, or you feel your life is in danger. As for the slippery slope argument, that is the same garbage liberals have been spewing for years. "Assault weapons ban", "if people get carry permits, it will be like the wild west", everything they have predicted hasn't happened. They have been wrong about everything related to guns that they have ever said. The question is, why do people still listen to this crap?

DBRIGGS9
10-25-2010, 13:12
I carry a gun for the same reason that I keep a first aid kit and fire extinguisher in my car. I don't carry when I hike though.

As for when to use a gun? That one isn't hard at all. When they present a weapon in a threatening manner, or you feel your life is in danger. As for the slippery slope argument, that is the same garbage liberals have been spewing for years. "Assault weapons ban", "if people get carry permits, it will be like the wild west", everything they have predicted hasn't happened. They have been wrong about everything related to guns that they have ever said. The question is, why do people still listen to this crap?


Different strokes for different folks. You carry a gun in case you encounter a situation so incredibly dangerous that you need to use, or at least make known that you have a gun. I don't carry a gun for the same reasons why I don't carry a parachute on airplanes, wear chain mail suits when I swim in the ocean, or coat myself in rubber during thunderstorms.

StorminMormon
10-25-2010, 13:21
I was looking at books at a backpacking store a few weeks ago, and by pure coincidence I flipped to a page that discussed safety on the trail. The specific issue of whether a gun was "necessary" or not was addressed and it was the author(s) opinion that having a gun on the trail was completely pointless. I can't quote it from memory, but his statement was something to the effect of..."I have talked to hikers that have carried, and hikers that have not carried (but owned guns) and none of them said they ever felt like they needed their gun".

That's fine - I wonder what the few dozen hikers each year that go missing (for whatever reason) would have said about carrying a gun? How about the gentlemen who passed away last week because of a Mountain Goat attack? I don't carry a gun out of fear, I carry a gun because it makes sense to me. I have ABSOLUTELY no plans of shooting anyone who doesn't represent an immediate lethal threat to me. 5 people may seem like an insignificant number to some folks, but to my wife, my 3 kids, my brothers and sisters, my parents...1 is 1 too many, if that 1 is me.

After all that. I have a permit. It's my right. I carry. Do what you want. I honestly don't care.

DBRIGGS9
10-25-2010, 13:30
Do what you want. I honestly don't care.

Amen, StorminMormon.

jersey joe
10-25-2010, 13:50
I've posted this before but...On my 2002 thru hike I ran into a guy and his brother who were hiking and camping up the hill from the shelter. This guy brandished a large ramboesque knife on his belt. They were obviously into drugs/alcohol and got very rowdy, built a bonfire, and hurled large rocks at the shelter for a while while screaming obscenities. There were about four of us in the shelter and we seriously considered packing up and hiking on a few miles to get away from this guy. After a while, I guess they wore themselves out because the noise and the rocks stopped. We all slept with our hiking poles at our sides and I think felt better with what might be called "safety in numbers".

weary
10-25-2010, 13:52
Have you ever slept in a shelter? :D
Many times. Have you ever packed up a wet tent after a night of rain? After a week of rain?

Spogatz
10-25-2010, 14:42
How many thru hikers have been robbed while on the trail? Murder is the extreme but I am sure there are many other crimes committed on the trail.

Jester2000
10-25-2010, 15:45
Many times. Have you ever packed up a wet tent after a night of rain? After a week of rain?

Many times.

I thought I would continue your action of answering a question not directed towards me. Have you ever juggled cats? (Note: someone other than weary should answer this)

restless
10-25-2010, 15:55
Never juggled cats-do hamsters count?

Jester2000
10-25-2010, 15:56
Never juggled cats-do hamsters count?

Someone else is going to have to answer that.

sherrill
10-25-2010, 16:26
Yes I have juggled cats.

Sometimes, weary, I just think you don't see my humor.

FlyPaper
10-25-2010, 16:32
Sure, the number would still be 5. I didn't say I didn't care that people died on the trail, I just said thats a very small number for a 2100 mile long trail. Its a negligible NUMBER. I bet that number would go up if everybody carried guns.

Hmm. Not that I carry a gun on the trail nor am taking a stance one way or the other, but this question got me thinking about how to compare safety between the trail and the city. This is more based on curiouisity than having an axe to grind (no pun intended).

Clearly, when comparing the likelihood of being murdered one must take into account the fact that a lot more people spend a lot more time in cities than on the trail. If one survives a one hour day hike on the Appalachian Trail that is not a data point that can be directly compared against surviving one year in Baltimore.

It has been claimed that there have been 5 thru-hikers murdered on the AT.

The ATC site claims that there have been 11630 AT "completions" recorded since 1936. I seems likely that the overwhelming majority of these "completions" are thru-hikers. Perhaps there are a few non-recorded completions that can offset the section-hiker "completions", but for the sake of argument, let's say there have been 11630 thru-hikes completed since 1936.

A thru-hike consists of about 6 months living life "on the trail". That is 1/2 of a year. The population of a city such as Baltimore is based on people living there a whole year. Some move in and some move out, but the per capita murder rates are based on the average population of a city, not the number of distinct visitors or visits to the city. Since a thru-hike is 1/2 a year, we must double the per capita murder rate in order to compare "apples to apples" with large cities.

When talking about per capita murder rates, it is important to consider those who were "thru-hiking" at one point but did not finish. Obviously someone who was murdered while thru-hiking is not going to complete their
thru-hike. It is impossible to know if they would have completed their thru-hike had they not been murdered. So it is important when comparing
per capita rates of thru-hikers to city dwellers to consider the whole population of those that consider themselves to be "thru-hiking" whether or
not they would go on to finish their thru-hike.

According to the ATC web site, approximately 25% of those that start thru-hiking finish in a given year. This is based on the last 8 years. I imagine the percentage was lower before that. But for the sake of argument, we'll say 4 times as many start as finish.

Of those that start, almost 1/2 have quit within around 3 weeks. Another 25% quit later. If someone quits a thru-hike 3 weeks into the hike, that is not the same as spending a year on the trail, and hence is not proper to compare as an "apples to apples" comparison to someone living in the city for 1 year. It would take 17 people starting a thru-hike and quiting in 3 weeks to equal one person living for a whole year in a city in order to make a valid comparison to establish the relationship between per capita murder rates.

Since those that quit within 3 weeks spend almost no time "thru-hiking", for the sake of argument, we can pretend these people never were thru-hiking, and to more than offset that pretend the 25% that quit after 3 weeks to have completed the thru-hike. That means, we have 11630 x 2 thru-hike completions since 1936, each of them spending 1/2 a year on the trail.

That is like having 11630 people live for 1 year on the trail resulting in 5 murders. The murder rate per capita of the AT as a city would be 0.43 per thousand which is not as safe as Baltimore, but safer than New Orleans.

Note: I made a number of simplifying assumptions, but I believe most of these assumptions err on the side of making the trail seem safer than it really is.
Also, I am counting day hikers and section hikers as if they were part of a different "city" entirely. Since this thread mentioned murders, but not muggings, rapes, etc., all I am looking at is murders.

Based on this, I don't think you can really say that the trail is substantially safer than an ordinary city.

Luddite
10-25-2010, 16:48
How many thru hikers have been robbed while on the trail? Murder is the extreme but I am sure there are many other crimes committed on the trail.

I'm not sure how many people have been robbed but it seems like the people who have had stuff stolen from them weren't around to prevent it.

Jester2000
10-25-2010, 16:52
Separating out thru-hikers murdered and thru-hikers as a trail population when considering safety on the trail is, I think, kind of nonsensical. It would be like saying, "I'm going to look at the murder rate in Philadelphia, but I'm only going to look at murders of people who were 5'8" and left handed, and compare that to the number of 5'8" left handed people in the city. From that I'm going to determine whether the city of Philadelphia has a high murder rate."

Absent a meaningful distinction (meaning that the reason people were killed had something to do with the fact that they were thru-hikers), I don't understand why this matters.

I suppose if one really wanted to, one could factor time on the trail in hours, and one could then account for every person on the trail, whether they be day hikers, weekenders, section hikers, or thrus. If, that is, you could really figure out how many people actually use the trail -- a number than can really only be roughly estimated. And you could figure out the murder rate per hour in a city, which would be the easy part of all of this.

And in the end, you still wouldn't really have a handle on your individual safety in any given moment on the trail.

FlyPaper
10-25-2010, 17:03
Since the claim was made the 5 thru-hikers had been murdered, it seem absolutely essential to measure that against only population of thru-hikers. If the claim had been that 5 "hikers" had been murdered, then it would not make sense to seperate out thru-hikers and non-thru-hikers.

Naturally, the safety of the trail is not wholy summed up in counting only thru-hikers, but we'd need to know the total number of all murders on the trail to begin to crunch numbers that count non-thru-hikers too.



Separating out thru-hikers murdered and thru-hikers as a trail population when considering safety on the trail is, I think, kind of nonsensical. It would be like saying, "I'm going to look at the murder rate in Philadelphia, but I'm only going to look at murders of people who were 5'8" and left handed, and compare that to the number of 5'8" left handed people in the city. From that I'm going to determine whether the city of Philadelphia has a high murder rate."

Absent a meaningful distinction (meaning that the reason people were killed had something to do with the fact that they were thru-hikers), I don't understand why this matters.

I suppose if one really wanted to, one could factor time on the trail in hours, and one could then account for every person on the trail, whether they be day hikers, weekenders, section hikers, or thrus. If, that is, you could really figure out how many people actually use the trail -- a number than can really only be roughly estimated. And you could figure out the murder rate per hour in a city, which would be the easy part of all of this.

And in the end, you still wouldn't really have a handle on your individual safety in any given moment on the trail.

Trailbender
10-25-2010, 17:05
Different strokes for different folks. You carry a gun in case you encounter a situation so incredibly dangerous that you need to use, or at least make known that you have a gun. I don't carry a gun for the same reasons why I don't carry a parachute on airplanes, wear chain mail suits when I swim in the ocean, or coat myself in rubber during thunderstorms.

If I was expecting to need a gun, I would have a rifle, not a handgun. I have a lot of training, in both hand to hand, and firearms. I know there are a lot of good people out there, but there are also a lot of evil scumbags. I am not going to rely on the kindness of a crackhead when he is robbing me.

Pedaling Fool
10-25-2010, 17:10
I'm kind of confused about the "5 thru-hikers murdered" aspect of this discussion. I don't know how many thru-hikers have been killed (may of been 5 -- I don't know), nor do I know how many people (regardless of status i.e. day, weekend, section...hiker) have been killed on the AT. However I do know that others, besides thru-hikers have been killed on the AT.

Pedaling Fool
10-25-2010, 17:14
BTW, without looking at the numbers I'd say that the AT is not the most dangerous place to be, but it is also not as safe as some would have you believe.

Pedaling Fool
10-25-2010, 17:38
I'm kind of confused about the "5 thru-hikers murdered" aspect of this discussion. I don't know how many thru-hikers have been killed (may of been 5 -- I don't know), nor do I know how many people (regardless of status i.e. day, weekend, section...hiker) have been killed on the AT. However I do know that others, besides thru-hikers have been killed on the AT.
Then again I guess it depends on how far the person is off the AT, like those two girls in SNP, I've heard some argue that they don't count, to me that's an extreme technicality.
Here's one list, but I'm not saying it's conclusive http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/outdoors/shooting/crime/appalachian-trail-murders.html


Appalachian Trail Murders


The Appalachian Trail, like most parks and hiking areas in America is relatively safe. With over 3 million hikers visiting various sections of the trail per year, there have only been 9 murders along the trail since 1974, and according to the ATC an average of about 1 rape every 3 years. One unusual aspect about the Appalachian Trail murders is that three incidents have been double murders. In two of those cases one of the victims was male.


Georgia - May 1974, Joel Polsom, 26, of Hartsville, South Carolina was murdered and his female companion kidnapped by the killer at the Low Gap Trail Shelter in White County Georgia, which is in the Chattahoochee National Forest. Michigan fugitive Ralph Fox was later captured

Tennessee - April 1975, Thru-hiker Janice Balza, 22, of Madison, Wisconsin was killed by a hatchet at Vandeventer shelter in northeast Tennessee. Hiker/tree surgeon Paul Bigley, 51, was convicted of her murder and died in prison .

Virginia - May 1981, Susan Ramsay murdered while hiking along the AT with Robert Mountford Jr. Murderer Randall Smith was paroled after only 15 years for this double murder. After his release Smith tried to kill to two more people in the same area.

Virginia - May 1981, Robert Mountford Jr. (and Susan Ramsay) were murdered while hiking along the AT. Murderer Randall Smith who was paroled after only 15 years and years later returned to the same area and tried to kill two more people.

Pennsylvania - May 12, 1988, Rebecca Wight was shot dead and her partner, Claudia Brenner, was seriously wounded.

Pennsylvania - September 12, 1990, Molly LaRue, 25, of Shaker Heights, Ohio and her fiancé from Tennessee were killed at the Thelma Marks Shelter on the AT south of Duncannon, Pa

Pennsylvania - September 12, 1990, Geoffrey Hood, 26, of Signal Mountain, Tennessee was shot to death as he slept in the Thelma Marks Shelter on the A.T. south of Duncannon, Pa

Shenandoah National Park, Virginia - May 28, 1996, Julianne Williams, 24, (and Lollie Winans) were bound and had their throats cut while hiking and camping near Bridle Trail and the Appalachian Trail. There bodies were found less than 1/4 mile from the road. This crime remains unsolved.

Shenandoah National Park, Virginia - May 28, 1996, Lollie Winans, 26 (and Julianne Williams) were bound and had their throats cut while hiking and camping near Bridle Trail and the Appalachian Trail. This crime remains unsolved.
Random thoughts about the murders that have happened along the Appalachian Trail.

Of the 9 murders listed above

Female or solo hikers should not go into an empty shelter and unpack all your gear for the evening. Wait to see who else shows up. If you feel uncomfortable, leave and set up camp somewhere else.

rickb
10-25-2010, 17:50
Absent a meaningful distinction (meaning that the reason people were killed had something to do with the fact that they were thru-hikers), I don't understand why this matters.

Good point.

For starters:

1) Thru hikers spend a great deal more time on the Trail than other populations

2) It may be more common for common for a thru hiker couple to shelter with an unknown male and/or think shelters are inherently safe

3) A significant number of thru hikers (south bounders) still hike at times when the trail is not crowded

4) Some thu hikers may come across as "different" in the mind of their killer (different accent, sensibilities or lifestyle)

5) Thru hikers spend a great deal more time on the Trail than other populations (Oh, I listed that one already)

In the end, some population will always be more at risk than others. This bears thinking about. If you want to continue with the Philadelphia example, consider that a 24 Hour convenience store clerk faces more of a risk of getting shot than a person putting the wiz on a cheese steak at Geno's. That's just the way it is.

Luddite
10-25-2010, 18:21
Just go hiking. Its safe.

restless
10-25-2010, 18:23
Just go hiking. Its safe.

And leave paranoia at home too!!!:banana:banana:banana

kayak karl
10-25-2010, 18:33
And leave paranoia at home too!!!:banana:banana:banana
love everybody, nobody will hurt you, they're your friends. LOL
Idiot!

DapperD
10-25-2010, 18:36
For starters:

Thru hikers spend a great deal more time on the Trail than other populations

In the end, some population will always be more at risk than others. This bears thinking about. The population more at risk than other's is known as the "homeless population". They are more vulnerable in society to attack and murder as they are out there with bad and deranged people amongst their midst. They are most vulnerable in our society. When one chooses to thru-hike/long distance hike, they are in essence simulating a "homeless" lifestyle in a sense. So it would stand to reason then that by being out there, their chances of becoming a victim of crime would increase also. So when one thinks about it in that perspective, it may not necessarily be as foolhardy to carry a means to defend oneself (whatever that means may be) as one may initially reason. In my own opinion, I don't believe I would personally carry a firearm on an extended hike on the AT, but I think something such as a good pepper-spray could easily prove itself handy in dispensing dangerous animals, etc...And if someone so chooses to carry a firearm, I don't (as other's have said) care as long as the person carrying the weapon is capable of safely handling and operating it. I do believe that hiking with other's who are at least around and in somewhat close proximity, although not making one completely safe, tends to lend a margin of safety in ones favor.

Luddite
10-25-2010, 18:49
Seriously, Whiteblaze is making me paranoid now.

Alligator
10-25-2010, 18:59
Quite a tangle of hijacking going on, might take a bit to get it sorted out and cleaned up. The thread was about personal experiences and how they were handled.