View Full Version : How to stay warm in a shelter?
StorminMormon
11-10-2010, 11:06
So my wife and I will be on the AT this weekend and this is her first backpacking trip so I'm trying to make it nice. We will have a tent with us but she seems bent on sleeping in the shelter each night. I don't know...I guess it's the novelty of the whole thing. Anyway, what can I do to help make sleeping in the shelter more comfortable? We'll both have 20 degree bags, and inflatable pads. I picked up a few "hand warmers" to open up and toss in our bag to make it a little warmer.
As near as I can tell, the temp this weekend near Hot Springs will be low 30s on one night and possibly low 20s the second night. I thought of us sleeping shoulder to shoulder in our bags, and wrapping a large space blanket over the top of us. Would that work? I know the tent will be warmer and so I'm pretty sure I'm going to setup the tent and we'll try to sleep in the shelter, and if it's not working out...we'll move to the already setup tent.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Stir Fry
11-10-2010, 11:39
Set the tent up in the shelter if you are alone.
StorminMormon
11-10-2010, 11:44
Set the tent up in the shelter if you are alone.
Eh...that kind of strikes me as being in poor taste. If I setup and some other hiker comes along an hour or two later...even if it's really late, then I would feel like an idiot. It's not so much the "roof" that she likes, it's the idea of sleeping up off the ground on a flat surface...so the tent in the shelter doesn't really solve that.
swamp dawg
11-10-2010, 11:51
Some folks set up their tent in the shelter if it isn't full. Most hikers do not have a problem with that since there is not a whole volume of hiker this time of the year. If someone has a problem with the tent simply take it down and relocate. A bonus to setting up in a shelter is that it give an extra barrier to the shelter mice. Life is good on the trail, have a good hike.....swamp dawg
SullyJoe
11-10-2010, 11:54
Put hot water in you water bottle and put them in your bags a 1/2 hour before you climb in.
I thought of us sleeping shoulder to shoulder in our bags, and wrapping a large space blanket over the top of us.Makes a huge difference with two bodies in one bag
Slo-go'en
11-10-2010, 12:14
DO NOT use a space blanket - if you do you'll wake up soaking wet from the condensasion. (plus the noise it makes everytime you move will drive you nuts)
DO wear a hat. A fleece neck warmer thingie helps a lot too.
StorminMormon
11-10-2010, 12:18
Makes a huge difference with two bodies in one bag
Ha! Well, the bags we have are kinda snug as it is. It is my birthday this weekend so I'm sure I'll get the requisite hug and kiss. If nothing else, I'll try a few things and definitely report back. The hot water bottle idea sounds good - I may try that.
Covering up with a space blanket risks causing condensation problems and defeating the purpose.
1) Silk bag liner helps a little and is light.
2) Mid-weight wool longjohns add a lot of comfort, keep them just for camp and sleeping so they are nice and dry
3) If it's windy, a tarp or tent fly hung across the shelter opening helps
4) Extra blue pad underneath the inflatable adds a lot of warmth.
5) Comfortable knit hat is essential.
6) Dry wool socks or, better yet, down booties are a luxury inside the sleeping bag
7) High energy food just before bed and a snack during the night helps
8) Stay well hydrated
9) If she/you needs to pee, do so. Don't try to hold it, adds tremendously to your discomfort. Getting up to pee at night isn't as bad as it sounds.
10) A t-shirt pulled over your head and worn around the neck can help block cold breezes from entering your sleeping bag every time you move if the bag isn't cinched completely closed.
11) Other insulating layers can be worn inside the bag as long as they don't compress the sleeping bag from the inside, again that defeats the purpose. Could be draped over the bag in that case. Make sure they are dry.
At the temperatures you expect, most of these will be overkill, but are good to have in your arsenal.
Good Luck and HAVE FUN!!!!
StorminMormon
11-10-2010, 12:28
Covering up with a space blanket risks causing condensation problems and defeating the purpose.
1) Silk bag liner helps a little and is light.
2) Mid-weight wool longjohns add a lot of comfort, keep them just for camp and sleeping so they are nice and dry
3) If it's windy, a tarp or tent fly hung across the shelter opening helps
4) Extra blue pad underneath the inflatable adds a lot of warmth.
5) Comfortable knit hat is essential.
6) Dry wool socks or, better yet, down booties are a luxury inside the sleeping bag
7) High energy food just before bed and a snack during the night helps
8) Stay well hydrated
9) If she/you needs to pee, do so. Don't try to hold it, adds tremendously to your discomfort. Getting up to pee at night isn't as bad as it sounds.
10) A t-shirt pulled over your head and worn around the neck can help block cold breezes from entering your sleeping bag every time you move if the bag isn't cinched completely closed.
11) Other insulating layers can be worn inside the bag as long as they don't compress the sleeping bag from the inside, again that defeats the purpose. Could be draped over the bag in that case. Make sure they are dry.
At the temperatures you expect, most of these will be overkill, but are good to have in your arsenal.
Good Luck and HAVE FUN!!!!
Wow, awesome suggestions. Thanks a ton. Yeah, we'll have some "wool jammies" to wear and I was definitely going to wear my cap to keep warm.
Stay at Trimpi Shelter it has a fire place! :)
beartripper
11-10-2010, 12:38
Post nine, #9 Your body has to work extra to keep a full bladder the same temperture. The sleeping bag should not be too big, fill up any extra space with coats, etc. My wife sleeps cold and it is always hard for her to keep warm early in the night. I understand what you are stating.
Good luck.
Berserker
11-10-2010, 12:40
Along with the suggestions for insulating layers and what not above, make sure to have adequate padding to sleep on. A lot of heat gets lost through the floor of the shelter as the floors usually consist of wood platforms sitting above the ground (i.e. there's air space underneath them).
The novelty of the shelter may wear off quick if you get in one with a lot of mice...unless of course you like mice :eek:
Forgot to mention. A very lightweight ground cloth is also valuable inside a shelter. It is a clean place to lay your bags, is dry even if previous users tracked in mud or wet, and in windy conditions blocks wind from coming up between the cracks in some shelter floors.
I use polycryo (shrink wrap) but tyvek or 2 or 3 mil plastic works well also. Can usually buy it in big rolls at any hardware or XYZ Mart.
Forgotten tip number 2: If sleeping bag is too long, it is very difficult to keep warm feet. Tie a cord around the outside of the bag at the proper "shortness". Not too tight, just to compress the foot section off without completely flattening it. Some good bags are designed with an internal draw cord just for this purpose.
StorminMormon
11-10-2010, 12:43
The novelty of the shelter may wear off quick if you get in one with a lot of mice...unless of course you like mice :eek:
I'm curious to see how "active" the mice will be mid-November. That area got well over 3 inches of snow last weekend. I guess I'll have to wait and see. As I mentioned, I'm setting up that tent pretty much regardless. The last thing I need is for her waking up at 1:00 a.m. and demanding me to setup a tent because she's done with the idea of shelter sleeping.
Blissful
11-10-2010, 12:49
She will regret not being in a nice warm tent. One night in a cold shelter is enough and the novelty wears off mighty fast. Esp if this is her first backpacking trip. I'd go with the tent for a first-timer, and if novelty suits after that, do the shelter some other time.
The shelter floors are not always flat - they often sag one way or another.
I was out in the shenandoah testing my new winter tent last weekend. the tent stayed at 45* all nite and it was 28* outside. I used a 1 pound, 6 ounce JRB quilt with my exped 9 and was comfortable.
a bivy is nice in a shelter to reduce heat loss from any wind.
Looks like lows in the mid 30's around Hot Springs this weekend. If you've got inflatable pads, 20* bags and wool pajamas you don't need anything else.
StorminMormon
11-10-2010, 14:18
Looks like lows in the mid 30's around Hot Springs this weekend. If you've got inflatable pads, 20* bags and wool pajamas you don't need anything else.
Thanks 10-k. I planned this trip about 2 months ago, and I almost decided to go last week. My birthday is this Saturday so that's why we are going but a couple months ago I thought to myself - if I'm going to go in November, better go early as you can so that it's warmer. HA HA HA. This past weekend (all the snowfall) would have been a completely different experience than the upcoming weekend.
bigcranky
11-10-2010, 14:23
If you can find her a pair of down booties, they do wonders both around camp and inside the sleeping bag.
+1 on the ground sheet inside the shelter, this also helps to block wind coming up through the floor boards. If you really want to be nice, bring a second pad of closed cell foam for more insulation.
All good suggestions. It may be good to have some chocolate on hand so you can 'stoke the furnace' in the middle of the night should you get cold. Some quick, easily digestible calories, can help warm you up.
And, if your wife is anything like my girlfriend, taking some chocolate will give you some great brownie points. :sun
If the first night is warmer, try to stay in the shelter and then use the tent for the second colder night. You could pose it as an experiment to compare which sleeps warmer. That might resolve the issue for future trips.
peakbagger
11-10-2010, 16:00
A closed cell pad (ensolite) is going to be warmer then a self inflator like a Thermarest. In the winter, if I am not carrying the pad, I use both.
SawnieRobertson
11-10-2010, 17:50
Covering up with a space blanket risks causing condensation problems and defeating the purpose.
1) Silk bag liner helps a little and is light.
2) Mid-weight wool longjohns add a lot of comfort, keep them just for camp and sleeping so they are nice and dry
3) If it's windy, a tarp or tent fly hung across the shelter opening helps
4) Extra blue pad underneath the inflatable adds a lot of warmth.
5) Comfortable knit hat is essential.
6) Dry wool socks or, better yet, down booties are a luxury inside the sleeping bag
7) High energy food just before bed and a snack during the night helps
8) Stay well hydrated
9) If she/you needs to pee, do so. Don't try to hold it, adds tremendously to your discomfort. Getting up to pee at night isn't as bad as it sounds.
10) A t-shirt pulled over your head and worn around the neck can help block cold breezes from entering your sleeping bag every time you move if the bag isn't cinched completely closed.
11) Other insulating layers can be worn inside the bag as long as they don't compress the sleeping bag from the inside, again that defeats the purpose. Could be draped over the bag in that case. Make sure they are dry.
At the temperatures you expect, most of these will be overkill, but are good to have in your arsenal.
Good Luck and HAVE FUN!!!!
Lyle really has it all down pat. And you are a dear to care so much for her intro into trail life. Happy Birthday!--Kinnickinic
mikecordes
11-10-2010, 18:05
Stay in the tent.. Shelter is alwys colder than tent because the ground is the best insulator on the trail... Mice are very active in November and the temperature will be colder than you think on the mountain
Just got back from a 2-day solo hike to check out the cold weather stuff. It was in the lower 40's (maybe upper 30's) with wind gusting up to 15 mph. The gear seemed ok, but for the mind it was torture! The sun set at 4:40 and dark by 5:15. After staring at "dark" for two hours inside a tent, wrapped in a sleeping bag, and realizing it would still be another 11 hours until daylight, I vowed "never again!".
How do you keep yourself occupied at night, other than the 6-8 hours of sleeping, when the nights are about 13 hours long? The hiking was great, but I am about to give up on ever doing another overnight during the short daylight hours.
BTW - speaking of mice. The campsite where I stayed had bear boxes (DWG - NJ). I put my food inside the box, the mice got in and ate through the zip-locs, and of course the food as well.:D Happy day.
4eyedbuzzard
11-10-2010, 23:25
Just got back from a 2-day solo hike to check out the cold weather stuff. It was in the lower 40's (maybe upper 30's) with wind gusting up to 15 mph. The gear seemed ok, but for the mind it was torture! The sun set at 4:40 and dark by 5:15. After staring at "dark" for two hours inside a tent, wrapped in a sleeping bag, and realizing it would still be another 11 hours until daylight, I vowed "never again!".
How do you keep yourself occupied at night, other than the 6-8 hours of sleeping, when the nights are about 13 hours long? The hiking was great, but I am about to give up on ever doing another overnight during the short daylight hours.
Headlamp and Campfire and a Book - stay up and don't go to sleep too early or you'll wake up a 2 am and have to wait 4 to 5 hours for dawn. If looking to maximize hiking time, do breakfast and dinner and make and break camp by headlamp. Hike before dawn and after dusk as well by headlamp if terrain and safety allows. Consider a candle or small light LED lantern for ambient light.
StorminMormon
11-11-2010, 07:10
How do you keep yourself occupied at night, other than the 6-8 hours of sleeping, when the nights are about 13 hours long? The hiking was great, but I am about to give up on ever doing another overnight during the short daylight hours.
Oh....I'm sure we'll figure out something to occupy ourselves. Ha ha ha. In all seriousness, she's bringing a book and we both have mp3 players. We have three boys (in-laws are watching them for our trip) so we're excited for some alone time to talk and just be together.
Oh....I'm sure we'll figure out something to occupy ourselves. Ha ha ha. In all seriousness, she's bringing a book and we both have mp3 players. We have three boys (in-laws are watching them for our trip) so we're excited for some alone time to talk and just be together.
how about just one mp3 player and share the headphones... more romantic that way :D
mweinstone
11-11-2010, 09:54
i dissagree with 99% of all this. start over.
your bags are snug. danger. not cool. this alone ruins everything. bags must fit with extra room.
two pads would ruin hiking. too bulky and heavy and not usefull at all.
handwarmers are poop.
shelters arent warm. period. tents are. safty first. wife second.
any liner or extra clothes in a bag decrese comfort and increase wet. bad idea. sleep nude or in thin johns.never wool.wool is done. its over. not usefull anymore.
mice just arent a problem anywhere on the AT when you do this:
sleep in a tent.
shelters are fun to do anything but sleep in in cold. lunch sure. dinner and a fire, good. sleep,no.
the unbeliveable warmth of two in a tent will ensure she likes hiking.
the unbeliveable cold of a shelter will ensure she hates hiking.
20 degree bags arent at all for this trip. danger.
fun in a tent is funner than fun in a shelter for a couple in the cold. duh.
the privacy and security of the tent will impress her and make her happy.
StorminMormon
11-11-2010, 10:26
i dissagree with 99% of all this. start over.
your bags are snug. danger. not cool. this alone ruins everything. bags must fit with extra room.
two pads would ruin hiking. too bulky and heavy and not usefull at all.
handwarmers are poop.
shelters arent warm. period. tents are. safty first. wife second.
any liner or extra clothes in a bag decrese comfort and increase wet. bad idea. sleep nude or in thin johns.never wool.wool is done. its over. not usefull anymore.
mice just arent a problem anywhere on the AT when you do this:
sleep in a tent.
shelters are fun to do anything but sleep in in cold. lunch sure. dinner and a fire, good. sleep,no.
the unbeliveable warmth of two in a tent will ensure she likes hiking.
the unbeliveable cold of a shelter will ensure she hates hiking.
20 degree bags arent at all for this trip. danger.
fun in a tent is funner than fun in a shelter for a couple in the cold. duh.
the privacy and security of the tent will impress her and make her happy.
I'm sure you're either using a mobile phone, or a circa 1890s teletype (Send help! STOP The Infamouse El Guapo. STOP), but can you explain your line about "20 degree bags arent at all for this trip. danger ." Are you saying too warm, or not warm enough?
I kinda' doubt that they aren't warm enough when the lows are expected to be low 30s or high 20s. Especially when we'll have a tent and warm clothing to add comfort if necessary. And I didn't say the bags were too tight, but come on - they're mummy bags. They're not made for two people! Each of us fits quite comfortably in our bag, but no - there's not enough room for another human being in those bags.
I appreciate your comments, but would like more clarification on what you meant by the 20 degree bags = danger.
Thanks!
The tent in the shelter, as mentioned earlier, should work best especially if you have a bag large enough for both of you. Things I've learned here and through my own experience for winter camping:
Dont wear a lot of layers in a sleeping bag, you tend to sweat and get colder not warmer.
Have high energy food (candy bars) with you.
Have something to occupy your time (in your case a willing spouse is great!!);)
Stay hydrated.
Pee when you feel the urge, don't wait it just makes you feel worse and besides the movement of getting up will get the blood flowing.
I have to believe the best of all is having another warm body next to you - may even get too warm!
Finally if everything fails and you are just plain miserable and you don't have an exit possibility like walking back to the car, learn what you can from the experience. This happened to me in the last couple days and I came here to find out how to make things go better if there is a next time for me.
StorminMormon
11-11-2010, 11:17
The tent in the shelter, as mentioned earlier, should work best especially if you have a bag large enough for both of you. Things I've learned here and through my own experience for winter camping...
Awesome...thanks for the advice! I think I'll take that advice and leave the "jammies" at home and just have a good t-shirt and sleeping shorts. It's really not going to be "that cold" in perspective. I mean, I know there are dozens (if not hundreds) of men and women on this forum that have had to sleep in much colder conditions. I'll have some firewood handy and if it gets so cold in the tent we can't take it. I'll start a campfire and we'll just do jumping jacks all night.
Set the tent up in the shelter if you are alone.
For god sakes don't don't do this. If you have a tent set up.. there is no need to be in a shelter. Leave that space for others. You speak of temps in low 30's so there will be no bugs.
incidentally.. shelters may keep you dry but they won't keep you warm.
DavidNH
StorminMormon
11-11-2010, 11:31
For god sakes don't don't do this. If you have a tent set up.. there is no need to be in a shelter. Leave that space for others. You speak of temps in low 30's so there will be no bugs.
incidentally.. shelters may keep you dry but they won't keep you warm.
DavidNH
Yeah, don't worry - I wasn't planning on it. I've read several trail journals where hikers (after a long day) came to the shelter only to find it stuffed wall to wall with tents. I read how that really disappointed them and made for a rough "end-of-day" setup. I'd rather walk up to a shelter full of hikers, than a shelter full of tents. That would just be disheartening. Plus, if the shelter has a picnic table or other "amenity" you're basically precluding anyone else from taking advantage of those items, even when you aren't using them - e.g., I don't want to sit at a picnic table and enjoy my meal if you are "right there" in your tent doing "whatever".
Oh....I'm sure we'll figure out something to occupy ourselves.You got the idea, then! That'll warm up things in no time.
Rain Man
11-11-2010, 12:56
So my wife and I will be on the AT this weekend and this is her first backpacking trip so I'm trying to make it nice.
My lovely bride of 35 years has hiked with me several times on the AT, including in very cold weather. I'd say one thing is to keep the miles short, so she's not exhausted and her body (and therefore body chemistry) is totally worn down and out of whack at the end of the day. I have a hard time staying warm in that condition, even with a good sleeping bad.
Keep in mind that sleeping bag temp ratings seem to be "survival" and not "comfort." For some, a 20-degree bag in 20 degree weather is just fine. For others, it is brutal. I assume you cannot zip them together (as you have not mentioned that)? I certainly agree with placing a good Nalgene bottle full of hot water in the bags. When I do that, it's usually still warm to the touch in the morning. Wrap in something so it doesn't burn you, however!
I also agree DO NOT place a space blanket on top of your bags. Condensation will soak the bags. I like the t-shirt around the neck idea for keeping out drafts! I also like the idea of keeping your bodies fueled-up with food that they need to metabolize for overnight warmth.
I like the idea of placing something on the shelter floor to keep out drafts. Even so, lots of your heat will escape down, not just up and out. Use a good pad. Sleep with a cap or insulated head gear. Really helps. Personally, I like a "long" sleeping bag. I buy "longs" and have never noticed my feet getting cold. Easy enough to pull the bag up a bit if needed. But the main thing is you have room to put your boots (place them in an oven roaster bag) in the bottom of the sleeping bag. When others wake up to frozen boots and frozen shoelaces, you will have warm footwear! Women get cold feet easier, so take her some down booties.
A candle in a shelter sure adds nice ambiance. Makes you feel warmer! Make sure to have her favorite hot chocolate or tea. And if you're a super hubby, you might even make reservations for one of the hot spring tubs in Hot Springs at the end of the trip.
I hope you post some pics of your trip!
Rain:sunMan
.
Rain Man
11-11-2010, 13:01
Stay at Trimpi Shelter it has a fire place! :)
You mean this one?! :) Spent chilly rainy night there this summer. The fireplace was nice!
Though, Trimpi Shelter is nowhere near Hot Springs.
Rain:sunMan
.
Berserker
11-11-2010, 14:32
I'm curious to see how "active" the mice will be mid-November. That area got well over 3 inches of snow last weekend. I guess I'll have to wait and see. As I mentioned, I'm setting up that tent pretty much regardless. The last thing I need is for her waking up at 1:00 a.m. and demanding me to setup a tent because she's done with the idea of shelter sleeping.
In my experience snow/cold doesn't seem to have much of an effect on mouse activity. If they're there, they'll be out rooting around in everything no matter what. Good thing is it should help get your wife over the shelters, and into your tent quicker :D
4eyedbuzzard
11-11-2010, 15:07
safty first. wife second
You aren't married, are you?
They will tell you, you can't sleep alone in a strange place
Then they'll tell you, you can't sleep with somebody else
Ah, but sooner or later you sleep in your own space
Either way it's okay to wake up with yourself.
:banana
canoehead
11-11-2010, 17:35
pack light and share your sleeping bag
re: Safety first vs what the other half wants
I've learned that I always get the last words in any discussion with my girlfriend... "Yes dear". :)
mweinstone
11-11-2010, 20:00
i ment you need at least 15 degree bags. minimum. mummy bags are not constricting. only yours is . cause it aint all that. and tents in shelters is horrid. do that and im not helping you ever. or likeing you. and no one wants you to sleep two in a bag. they make bags for that. their called, the kind you dont have.and if your bags zip together or not is something you may not ever have heard of. and i belive this trip will end in frozen regret.your one of those guys who takes safty lightly.dont. if the record lows for the area cannot be survived in your bags with your skill level,..and if they occur,......then u learn why matthewski is your friend. ill come out with wolf and git ya. but it wil cost you. alot of embarresment.be safe. ur not starting a fire after wakeing up cold and wet in a record low with your skillset. all your doing then is shivering and trying to light a fire. trust me. your gonna freeze. heres my number. call if you have signal where you camp and ill tell you what to do if its 4 in the morn and 20 degrees with wind . ill say stuff like, take off all your clothes and unzip the foot section of your bag 12 inches and go back to sleep. and youll think thats crazy. and i might tell you to do isotonics. or eat jello. or one of a million things u might not know to do when shes dangerously hypothermed. i help ya. and ill bring lwolf. he has money.
mweinstone
11-11-2010, 20:04
questions while freezing? call matthewski. 215 668 0898. ill asses your situation and give you life saveing instructions.of course you wont be able to dial frozen and all. might wanna activate voice command and location feature on the cell. and for gods sake, take it easy and stay calm .remember, most marshmallow toasting related bigfoot deaths occur in this area at this time of year.
Rocket Jones
11-11-2010, 20:27
re: Safety first vs what the other half wants
I've learned that I always get the last words in any discussion with my girlfriend... "Yes dear". :)
I knew she was "Mrs. Right." I just didn't realize her first name was "Always." :p
So my wife and I will be on the AT this weekend and this is her first backpacking trip so I'm trying to make it nice. We will have a tent with us but she seems bent on sleeping in the shelter each night. I don't know...I guess it's the novelty of the whole thing. Anyway, what can I do to help make sleeping in the shelter more comfortable? We'll both have 20 degree bags, and inflatable pads. I picked up a few "hand warmers" to open up and toss in our bag to make it a little warmer.
As near as I can tell, the temp this weekend near Hot Springs will be low 30s on one night and possibly low 20s the second night. I thought of us sleeping shoulder to shoulder in our bags, and wrapping a large space blanket over the top of us. Would that work? I know the tent will be warmer and so I'm pretty sure I'm going to setup the tent and we'll try to sleep in the shelter, and if it's not working out...we'll move to the already setup tent.
Thanks in advance for your help!
she will spend 1 night miserable in a shelter at her insistence. then you, in your mighty wisdom, will be the savior on saturday night with a nice dry, warm tent that you should have sat up in the first place on friday night. but you will shut up and be nice about it because you love her.
mweinstone
11-12-2010, 09:25
thank you kanga. but the second night wont be in the mountains. shes looking at a forced frozen forggettable march back to the cars heater at dawn. folowed by an argumentative ride home complaining and finaly, a call to her girlfriend recounting the horror. future trips will find you hiking alone with matthewski like you should have done.lol.
4eyedbuzzard
11-12-2010, 09:30
[insert situation of choice] but you will shut up and be nice about it because you love her.
well, duh :D
well, duh :D
I am still learning that lesson at times. Stubborn (and vocal) Eye-talian that I am... :o
mweinstone
11-12-2010, 10:18
u used a curseword. saying italian that way offend me deeply. appologize .
mweinstone
11-12-2010, 10:19
i will now moderate whiteblaxe propperly. apoogize now.