PDA

View Full Version : If you were going to look into building a long distance trail in your state...



BigCheddar
11-15-2010, 06:01
I interested in starting a committee to look into building a long distance trail in my home state of Alaska. Where should I start? I thought of contacting local hiking groups, long distance hikers and other such groups but am not really sure if that’s a good place to start. Anyone have any ideas/thought on where to begin or how to proceed. I can tell you now that I would not be the one to head such a large project but I’d love to be directly involved. I apologize if this is not posted in the right area.

Hooch
11-15-2010, 07:14
I interested in starting a committee to look into building a long distance trail in my home state of Alaska. Where should I start?. . . . I'd try starting in Alaska. :banana

couscous
11-15-2010, 08:29
I would start by looking at the 4,680 mile loop Andrew Skurka did this year.
http://andrewskurka.com/AK10/index.php - National Geographic Magazine is planning a feature story about the trip in the March 2011 issue

fiddlehead
11-15-2010, 08:46
I'm doing a similar thing in Thailand.
Fortunately for me, people don't care if you go on their property, especially up above 80 meters above sea level (They're not allowed to build up there)

Anyway, except for the issues you are going to possibly have with private landowners, here's what I do to actually design a route:

I use Google Earth to plan my hopeful route. (if you hold down the shift key in GE and turn your mouse wheel, you'll tilt the earth to see the profile.
I like to go up the ridges and get to the top and basically try to stay there or a little on the leeward side of the mtn. (top is like the AT, 100 meters down from the top is like the PCT)
I spend a lot of time doing this and put in a lot of waypoints and create (draw) a route which i transfer that route to my GPS.
Then i go out and try to follow that route and use the waypoints for access.
I track my walking and then go back to GE and put this route in there in red. (the first one i do in white)

You can then upload it all to google maps and anyone can then walk your route.

Anyway, after a lot of trial, error, and bushwhacking, i have no completed 75 miles of a hiking trail in Phuket Thailand over a 3 year period. I expect my trail to be about 100 miles when i finish.
At that time i will give it all to the dept of tourism there and maybe they'll even build a trail through all that jungle.

Have fun. i sure have.

TheChop
11-15-2010, 08:54
Anyway, after a lot of trial, error, and bushwhacking, i have no completed 75 miles of a hiking trail in Phuket Thailand over a 3 year period. I expect my trail to be about 100 miles when i finish.
At that time i will give it all to the dept of tourism there and maybe they'll even build a trail through all that jungle.


So you'll finish your trail and then say, "Phuket. You guys take over!"

:D

4eyedbuzzard
11-15-2010, 09:00
So you'll finish your trail and then say, "Phuket. You guys take over!"

:D
Or, *****et, I'm phinished - I'm goin' phishin' . . .

4eyedbuzzard
11-15-2010, 09:01
Or, *****et, I'm phinished - I'm goin' phishin' . . .

Phrickin' ********** spell checkin' censors - I spelled Phuket wrong.

4eyedbuzzard
11-15-2010, 09:10
Hiking groups would be a great place to start, as would fishing / hunting groups. Contact state park / forest authorities and federal agencies as well for their input. Get some local politicians involved - not the kind who get big paychecks, at least in the beginning - rather the ones who do it to make a difference. Find a politically active champion.

I'd look into seeing what is already there trail wise in the hope of incorporating at least some existing trails into a longer trail (similar to how the AT was originally "assembled" through much of VT/NH/ME)

Good luck - and just don't name it "Sarah Palin's Alaska Trail" - PLEASE!

Trailbender
11-15-2010, 09:17
Yeah, I have definitely noticed people are way too uptight about personal property in the US. Yeah, it's land, you can never really own it, get over it. The earth belongs to all of us.

garlic08
11-15-2010, 09:19
Look at these links for the type of person it takes to do it:

http://www.aztrail.org/dale.html

http://www.coloradotrail.org/gudy.html

ki0eh
11-15-2010, 09:55
I've been involved in extending the longest footpath in PA and on into NY.

GIS is extremely helpful at a conceptual stage, looking at all of topography, soils, wetlands, land ownership patterns, drainage. If you don't have GIS resources Google Earth is a good start. Never totally believe what a GIS or Google Earth tell you, use these resources critically. If you don't believe me, ask the Nicaraguan army. :D

Although the land tenure is completely different in AK vs. PA and NY, the "Prime Directive" is likely the same. ALWAYS have permission from the land owner or land manager to consider your project BEFORE you even SCOUT on the ground looking for a path, or if public land setting any flags, clearing/marking anything, or doing anything outside the normal regulations on that tract. Show respect by your words and your actions. Gradually, not immediately, you and your project will get respect, if you deserve it by showing respect first. Have patience.

Don't ask the land managers immediately to change all their regulations for your trail. Work within them. Have patience. They won't believe you, the outsider that things like "no camping" rules are counterproductive. They may have to see that for themselves over years of cooperative effort.

Even with all that you may very well have some power mad manager who will say no or impose some idiotic restriction. Have patience. A few months after they retire have a talk with their successor. Use that time to be up and working on the next more pliable segment, hopefully on both sides of the guy who says "it's not in my ten-year plan" or similar bureaucratic inaction. Don't be afraid to work the middle from both ends if you have to.

Work with a top-down vision and ground-up work. Deal first and foremost with the front-line managers and work your way up from there.

Develop relationships with your users, often they know the front-line managers and the front-line managers know them.

With patience and determination, you can build a legacy with little money. Grant-funded headquarters directives aren't lasting. Ground-up grassroots initiatives, with time, can. Just look at the A.T., and PCT, not necessarily as they currently are, but find out how they came to be.

fiddlehead
11-15-2010, 11:16
So you'll finish your trail and then say, "Phuket. You guys take over!"

:D

Or, I'll go thru-hike it.
Of course there is still no trail, only a route.
I must get better at sharpening up that machete though.

skinewmexico
11-15-2010, 11:39
Impossible in my state, almost all private land.

weary
11-15-2010, 12:24
Impossible in my state, almost all private land.
The route MacKaye proposed for the AT was "almost all private land." But the trail got built, and at least a narrow corridor stretching 2,175 miles became public land, showing what private individuals with the cooperation of wise government can accomplish.

Mags
11-15-2010, 12:26
Impossible in my state, almost all private land.

Depends on what you consider a long trail, but there is this trail:

http://www.lshtclub.com/Default.htm

(128 miles...a bit short for a long trail..but it is a start. Could see where the private land could be an issue for anything longer! This thread has interesting info on the issues. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29737&highlight=lone+star+trail))

Bear Bag
11-15-2010, 12:53
I don't know how helpful this will be, but it may be an arrow for your quiver:


Trail Effects on Neighborhoods: Home Value, Safety, Quality of Life

http://www.americantrails.org/resources/adjacent/sumadjacent.html

Ladytrekker
11-15-2010, 13:08
I interested in starting a committee to look into building a long distance trail in my home state of Alaska. Where should I start? I thought of contacting local hiking groups, long distance hikers and other such groups but am not really sure if that’s a good place to start. Anyone have any ideas/thought on where to begin or how to proceed. I can tell you now that I would not be the one to head such a large project but I’d love to be directly involved. I apologize if this is not posted in the right area.

I would talk to the AT Conservancy and Florida Trail Assoc and see what there first out of the gate grass roots efforts were. I know that the Florida Trail gets most of their money thru grants from the FWC (Florida Wildlife Management) and federal money for forest conservation.

The biggest issues are acquisition of lands. You must acquire the lands to place the trail and if the property is privately owned you must get permission from the home owner. The other obstacles are liability of persons using the land. I don't want to talk you out of it because it can be done. By adapting the trail in Florida many acres of land have been acquired by the state for the Trail which will preserve this land hopefully forever.

I would however think that a good majority of the land in Alaska especially wilderness land is owned by the state, which could solve many of the issues.

Don't think this sounds stupid but I would approach or write Sarah Palin her interest in Alaska and its conservation along with promoting hikers to come hike for tourism she may answer you and point you in the direction of who to approach.

Just my thoughts.

ki0eh
11-15-2010, 13:15
Land "acquisition" for a trail means very different things to different people in different contexts.

In PA and NY, as in many other states, clearing and minimal marking of a natural surface trail through the woods with the permission of the landowner is an activity protected from liability of the landowner to the user by statute. Such laws are referred to as Recreational Use Statutes, and are said to exist in every state though the terms vary.

In many cases, it is not necessary to purchase land in fee simple to "acquire" it for a trail. The organizations I'm most involved with use many at-will or handshake agreements where the landowner gives up no rights, the trail pays nothing, the liability is relieved as described above.

With such agreements the trail is not protected from a change of heart by the landowner. It also has minimum involvement by the "gummint".

Ladytrekker
11-15-2010, 13:29
Ki0eh thanks for the legal info, I know that in Florida we do both acquire and private land use. In Florida it is very hard to find open/free land. The State of Florida started a Forever Florida campaign and have been acquiring as much land as possible on river fronts, non passable lands anything that could be used in conservation and trail building. Florida has been exploding in the last few years of persons now getting out into the inner environments with kayaking, hiking and backpacking. Most people think of Florida for the beaches but we are a whole lot more than that.

Alaskanhkr23
11-15-2010, 13:35
Hey where -in The valley you ,live? i used to live in Palmer and wassilla,then moved Outside of the Fairbanks

Montana AT05
11-15-2010, 14:12
1. Never, ever, for any reason, form a committee.

2. For the guy (Trailbender): Private Property is the basis of individual rights and individual rights (protected by objective law) are the basis for America's exceptional prosperity which, in turn, is a key reason why we have such a wonderful trail and park system. There is no contradiction here.

To the OP: You have a good idea in a great state. Look into conservation easements, land-use policies of your state, existing national park and trail systems, existing public lands, water-ways and the laws around them.

If you disregard or are ignorant of property rights, you won't get far.

If you rely solely on environmental groups and people who view the private property of others as an inconvenience to their personal cause of the day (while locking their own home and car doors), you won't get far.

Prepare a list of pros AND cons to such a trail. Discuss them openly. Beware of zealots on all sides, they accomplish nothing by their tantrums but a temporary stay of their own realization of their life's failure.

BigCheddar
11-15-2010, 18:41
Lots of great info, thanks! One thing about AK is that almost all the land up here is owned by the state or the Feds so dealing with private property owners would be rare and in most cases it would be easy to go around their land. I live 16 miles outside Wasilla. I would rather be hung by my toes than get Sara Palin involved in any way. My thoughts so far have been this:
1. A four month long trail due to the winter.
2. Possible start point at the Alaskan/Canada border (where the main border station is), the trail that was just finished in Canada ends only a hundred miles or so from this point.
3. A big issue will be the lack of re-supply points die the vast distances between towns. My idea is to have cabins built in these remote areas and have caretakers there to stay the summer to watch over peoples mail drops.
4. Water crossings: I thing that many foot bridges would have to be built.
5. ATV's on the trail: Up here we tend to ignore rules and I think this could be possibly a big issue with hunters and joy riders. Plus with the vast distances and open landscape it might be hard to enforce foot traffic only.

Just some of my thoughts

sbhikes
11-15-2010, 23:08
My friend has been working on establishing the Condor Trail. He's a cartographer who has hiked every trail in the area of the Condor Trail. He and a few others have been working on establishing a route connecting established trails, many of which are abandoned. Additionally, he is trying to work with the forest service and I think he's going to try to start a non-profit. There has to be some kind of organization to take in the donations so that trail maintenance and stuff like that will get done. You can't just ask the forest service to do it.

You might send him an email to get a sense of what it has taken so far.
http://www.condortrail.org

weary
11-15-2010, 23:53
Creating a long distance trail is not a one person project. You need an organization to generate broad support, and to maintain the trail once its built.

So first create a committee, followed by a non profit corporation to do the hard work of raising money, laying out a trail, persuading land owners (both public and private), and recruiting volunteers.

A new long distance trail requires the work of hundreds of people, devoting thousands of hours of volunteer labor, and lead by leadership willing to devote years to the effort.

I'd start by contacting someone who has managed such a chore recently. Dick Anderson, who dreamed up the idea of the International Appalachian Trail a couple of decades ago, comes to mind. The IAT began as an election campaign gimmick, and remains a work in progress requiring the work of an elaborate active organization, and skilled public relations.

I don't have Dick's contact at hand, but you can find him with a Google search, I'm sure. He lives in Freeport, Maine, I believe.

Weary

fiddlehead
11-16-2010, 08:42
I remember a few years back that the ATC sent some people over to Lebanon (the country, not the county or town in PA) to build a trail there.
They had to leave I believe because a war broke out or something like that.

But, then i talked to Brian King about it because of my trail in Thailand and he told me that the state department does go to other countries and help design and build trails if i remember correctly.

I wonder if they would also do it in our own country?

If I were you, I'd go out and do what i do with the GPS and Google Earth and have a LOT of fun. Cause once the govt. get's involved, most likely they won't put it where you think it should be but, they might listen to your recommendations.

It should open up a lot of doors for you anyway.

BTW, could you list your hiking experience?
Trails should be designed by experienced hikers.
The CDT and Jim Wolf is an excellent example.
Compare his trail (society) to the Alliance's. It's hikers vs bikers.

Each trail has it's own personality.
What will your's be?

BigCheddar
11-16-2010, 17:46
I’m going to show you a small basic list of the priorities from the recommendations here (best as I can figure). As I stated in the first post I’m not the guy to head this up, I lack the knowledge, experience, organization skills, contacts and expertise to be the main person. Mostly I want to get a little credit for the original idea. I’d love to be directly involved and I do have attributes that can help. I’m great at brainstorming, physical labor, and following direction. I can do research and am able to deal with people well, so contacting government agencies and getting info would be easy. I actually do know a few local politicians and think I’m more than capable of organizing the initial meetings with enthusiasts.
1. Contact and organize a meeting of local Alaskan enthusiasts. Leaders of local outdoors clubs, backpacking/hiking groups, community oriented politicians, alaskan native groups, government agencies such as the forest service or borough of land management, boy scouts, other already established trail groups like the AT conservatory and trail associations, adventurers or anyone else that might be interested. Some of the groups listed above would be contacted purely for input and advise, I would not expect for them to be actually represented in a meeting.
2. Research property laws, land use policies, waterway regulation, existing trails, pros/cons, possible routes, grants, effects of a trail on land, animals and a community.
3. Find the funds, volunteers, mark and scout routes, look into building shelters and areas that would need special attention due to remoteness and water bridges.

Montana AT05
11-16-2010, 18:03
Best of luck to you! You might also consider a loop trail as well as a point to point one. A long trail need not be straight (but a straight trail could eventually be linked to others).

A friend of mine owns a local magazine, its focus is outside life in our area (montana). Something he told me may be of use/interest to you.

I commented on the high quality of the photographs in his magaize as well as on the covers. I figured they must have cost a lot to acquire. He said, "No, you'd be surprised how many talented people will contribute for free or at reduced costs if it means they can be a part of something worthwhile."

I hope you find the same in your effort.

flemdawg1
11-17-2010, 14:57
What I think would be awesome is a loop trail connecting the 8 major NPs of AK.
Denali (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_denal.htm)
Gates of the Arctic (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_gates.htm)
Glacier Bay (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_glacier.htm)
Katmai (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_katmai.htm)
Kenai Fjords (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_ak_kenai.htm)
Kobuk Valley (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_kobuk.htm)
Lake Clark (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_lake.htm)
Wrangell-St. Elias (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_wrang.htm)

Luddite
11-17-2010, 15:08
What I think would be awesome is a loop trail connecting the 8 major NPs of AK.
Denali (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_denal.htm)
Gates of the Arctic (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_gates.htm)
Glacier Bay (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_glacier.htm)
Katmai (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_katmai.htm)
Kenai Fjords (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_ak_kenai.htm)
Kobuk Valley (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_kobuk.htm)
Lake Clark (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_lake.htm)
Wrangell-St. Elias (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/ak/index_wrang.htm)

Cool idea, but I wouldn't hike on any established trail in Alaska. Thats what makes Denali so awesome...very few trails.

flemdawg1
11-17-2010, 16:03
Cool idea, but I wouldn't hike on any established trail in Alaska. Thats what makes Denali so awesome...very few trails.

Well you don't really have to walk a trail if you don't want, it could be a "corridor" concept with a bridge crossing here and a resuppley point there, etc.

The cool thing about the NP loop trail is it would provide access to some AK NPs that are now only accessible by air (i.e. Lake Clark)

BigCheddar
11-17-2010, 19:44
I really like the idea of going through the National Parks, although I foresee an issue. The reason the Iditarod trail is not a backpacking trail it that it goes through so many swamps, bogs and tundra areas that its impassible in the summer (plus mosquitoes). I had figured on an east to west trail staying in the lower half of Alaska. This way you would be walking through more forests and the trail would have more solid ground (no boardwalks). This does not mean it wouldn’t work , just my initial thoughts. I’m also thinking this trail might have to be for experienced long distance hikers, due to the distance between re-supply points and the difficulty of the terrain. Theses of course just thoughts not in concrete by any means. We have to give the people want they want. The idea of going into Lake Clark is a great idea, I love it.

Uncle Cranky
11-17-2010, 21:19
Here in NC we have the Mountain-to-Sea Trail an unfinished 900 mile east to west path across the state.
The driving force behind this near 20 year project has been Alan de Hart.
A former professor of Louisburg College he formed the Friends of the Mountain-to-Sea Trail organization to oversee the development of the project.
De Hart also mapped the proposed trail and did the first thru hike to promote it.
He also hiked every mile of trail in VA, WVA, NC, SC and FL with a measuring wheel and wrote the definitive hiking guides to those states.
He has 55,000 trail miles under his boots.
At the age of 84 he currently promotes his pet projects, especially the MTST.
De Hart might be an excellent resource and mentor to help you with your dream project for AK.
Seriously consider tracking him down.