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saimyoji
12-13-2004, 15:32
I've recently read on Trailplace.com about a certain hiker who arrived at a shelter on a rainy nite. As he entered, the occupants: a family of uncertain religious persuasion, informed said hiker they did not want him to stay due to their values. Said hiker said (basically) "Nuts to you, I'm staying. I'll also be changing my clothes (getting naked in front of them all?)." The family was so upset by this hikers defiant innability to compromise (stay clothed/conceiled) that, after prolonged pleading, they fled into the rainy night.

My question: WTHeck? Shouldn't we expect/show more civility to the various people we encounter on the trail? If someone has a personal request (IE "please don't show your nakedness to my small children," "please don't hang your nasty dirty laundry above where I'm sleeping," etc.) is it unreasonable to try to "go along to get along" while sharing a shelter? If I'm hiking with my daughter, I would not tolerate random nudity around shelters, nor would I tolerate people imposing their values on me. Why would this 'HIKER' force this family to leave due to his inability to be a little understanding/compassionate and cover up?

Am I misguided in my ideas of the use of shelters? There is also some talk on that thread of SOBOs not being allowed to use some shelters, only NOBOs. ???

gravityman
12-13-2004, 15:51
I've recently read on Trailplace.com

Sounds like some urban legend. Well. maybe not urban, but at least rural legend :)

As for the other comments, yes, people aren't as considerate as they should be. I've been protective of my space at times even. However, we all must try to educate others about being more tolerant of others and of what we want when staying in shelters. Or don't stay in them.

Gravity

kncats
12-13-2004, 15:52
Not having been there during this specific incident I can only give a general response:
1. No one has a "right" to a shelter and to expect some one else to not stay there because of their religious values. Shelters are essentially public places. If you anticipate that you are not going to appreciate having company then you need to make plans for staying elsewhere, such as in a tent.
2. On a rainy night I certainly expect to change into dry clothes. And, particularly if my wife is with me, I anticipate that any one else in the shelter would simply exhibit a little common courtesy by turning their backs while we do so. Neither of us intends to parade around the shelter naked, particularly in front of children, however that's the way life is in a shelter.
3. It doesn't sound as though this family was "forced" to leave the shelter, they chose to. And as mentioned before, they should have been prepared to make this choice in advance.

rocket04
12-13-2004, 15:57
I think I've seen that post, don't remember the details. You make it sound like they told him they didn't want him to stay straight off the bat, and not after he said he was going to get naked or what not. In which case I understand his reluctance to go away. Also, if they acted all self-righteous and talked to him as if he was less entitled to being there, I also understand his reluctance to leave. Most of the time, it's not what you do but how you do it.

As for the shelter, I think the shelter mentioned may be the Birches in Katahdin, which is for thru-hikers only. By Baxter State Park's definition, a thru-hiker is somebody who has come through the 100 mile wilderness, and as such SOBOs don't qualify.

grrickar
12-13-2004, 15:58
I haven't heard of any issues with SOBOs not being able to use shelters; as far as I know anyone may use the shelters. There are rules about how long one is supposed to stay at a shelter.

The GSMNP has rules that you have to get a permit, which we did on our last hike thru there. I'm not sure what that permit really buys you - no one every questioned whether or not we had one. They have some weird rule that you are considered a thru-hiker if you start and finish 50 miles outside the park I think. Are non-thrus supposed to give up shelter space to thrus? It was never an issue, I just was curious.

As far as shelter ettiquite, people should show the same respect to one another that they would in any public place like a restaurant or office building. The thought that the trail is a place that people can act as they choose is a dangerous thought indeed. There are still rules and codes of conduct that should be obeyed, and that goes for anyone.

saimyoji
12-13-2004, 16:06
Is public nudity to be expected in shelters? Along the trail? Sorry, but isn't public nudity, public nudity: on the AT or along I-95 it is still illegal, right? Am i wrong? I don't mind public nudity for myself (an adult) but to provide an appropriate environment for kids is another issue. Do scout masters tell their scouts to shut up and accept that they have to get naked in the woods when cleaning-up/changing? My experience is NOT.

I'm not a prude, little bit of devil's advocate, but what's appropriate? Clearly the hiker I mentioned in my original post was insensitive to the family, no?

I would have said: "Okay, I need to get dry, then I'm gonna sleep over here. I won't bother you, don't worry, no need to freak out."

baseballswthrt
12-13-2004, 16:24
I would think that the family and the hiker would try and respect each others privacy. The hiker could have discreetly removed his wet clothing in a corner after asking the family to give him privacy (they could turn their backs). I rarely use shelters since I like my privacy, but I would probably be in the shelter if I showed up wet in the night. I wouldn't parade around in front of others naked either!
Everyone needs to show everyone else civil courtesy no matter who or where you are!
Some shelters do have limits regarding who may use the shelters. In SNP they are reserved for long distance (defined as 3 nights minimum) hikers, but most everyone uses them. I've never heard of SOBO hikers being excluded.

Anita

rickb
12-13-2004, 16:51
If I am not mistaken, the SOBO exclusion does apply to the special "Birches" shelter at Katahdin. Whether the rangers will bend the rules, I don't know.

I think that the theory is that a SOBO should have the ability to make a regular reservation like everyone else. That kind of sort of makes sense.

Except reservations can be hard to get.

Bottom line is that if you are going SOBO, you might want to consider making reservations for two nights at a regular Katahdin Stream site just as soon as they start taking them. Which means about two weeks from today.

Brushy Sage
12-13-2004, 17:50
I haven't heard of any issues with SOBOs not being able to use shelters; as far as I know anyone may use the shelters. There are rules about how long one is supposed to stay at a shelter.

The GSMNP has rules that you have to get a permit, which we did on our last hike thru there. I'm not sure what that permit really buys you - no one every questioned whether or not we had one. They have some weird rule that you are considered a thru-hiker if you start and finish 50 miles outside the park I think. Are non-thrus supposed to give up shelter space to thrus? It was never an issue, I just was curious. ....



Unless the rules have changed since 2002, the shelters in GSMNP are for people with reservations for that specific night at that specific shelter. An exception is made so that three thru hikers may stay in a shelter, based on the thru-hiking permit they obtained before entering the park. If more than three thru hikers show up, and the shelter is otherwise full of people with reservations, the thru hikers have to set up outside the shelter. At least his is how it is supposed to work. I never did see it actually put to the test. I did see a ranger hike in late one afternoon and asked to see everyone's reservation and permit (which everybody had).

rocket04
12-13-2004, 18:36
Is public nudity to be expected in shelters? Along the trail? Sorry, but isn't public nudity, public nudity: on the AT or along I-95 it is still illegal, right? Am i wrong? I feel there's a big difference in somebody parading around naked (which some people do on the summer solstice, btw) and just getting naked for the sake of changing your clothes. I mean, the latter can take about 15 seconds and you can tell people not to look. If we're gonna talk about being accomodating, I'd say that the said family could do the hiker the favor of not looking while he changes so he doesn't have to sleep out of the shelter or sleep in drenched clothes. Wouldn't you agree?

On the subject of nudity, I did hear a story from Tom Levardi about a thru-hiker who was a nudist and as such hiked mostly naked. If I recall, he said that when he came to town he would just wrap something around his waist. He had only had problems in one town by the time he reached Massachusetts: Kent, CT.

SGT Rock
12-13-2004, 18:36
Is public nudity to be expected in shelters? Along the trail? Sorry, but isn't public nudity, public nudity: on the AT or along I-95 it is still illegal, right? Am i wrong? I don't mind public nudity for myself (an adult) but to provide an appropriate environment for kids is another issue. Do scout masters tell their scouts to shut up and accept that they have to get naked in the woods when cleaning-up/changing? My experience is NOT.

I'm not a prude, little bit of devil's advocate, but what's appropriate? Clearly the hiker I mentioned in my original post was insensitive to the family, no?

I would have said: "Okay, I need to get dry, then I'm gonna sleep over here. I won't bother you, don't worry, no need to freak out."

Geez, not like this was Michael Jackson ruining around little boys without their parents while wearing his birthday suit.

Shelters are kind of like a barracks. I expect someone will some in, and I expect someone coming out of a rainstorm just might want to change out of wet clothing if they are there. It isn't really public nudity, just a poor wet hiker trying to get out of the wet clothing, and it seems pretty selfish of a religious person not to practice rules of good samaratinizm by expecting someone to suffer and stay wet and cold so they can preserve their religious prudishness. Perhaps instead of trying to tell the hiker what he couldn't do, maybe they should have just told the kids to be nice and look the other way while the nice hiker got changed.

I let my boys know ahead of time about such things - getting naked in the woods is going to happen and nudity like this is only something to worry about if you worry about it. In my experience, children raised with less uptight attitudes about little things like this become well adjusted people.

rocket04
12-13-2004, 18:41
In my experience, children raised with less uptight attitudes about little things like this become well adjusted people. I think that's an excellent point. What is so horrifying about seeing somebody naked for a few minutes? It ain't the end of the world and it's bound to happen one way or another. People running around naked is one thing, catching a peak of a person quickly changing is another. But again, it won't kill anybody to look the other way for a few seconds...

Alligator
12-13-2004, 18:46
But don't yell "Don't look" as you're dropping your drawers, it tends to have the opposite effect. It does work for a free cheap moon now and then though:jump .

cascader
12-13-2004, 22:01
This all reminds me of a story from my youth in the North Cascades. We used to hike to a natural hotsprings--someone had built a square cedar box where the thermal water came in. It was an amazingly good feeling after climbing the 5 miles + 3,000 foot elevation gain or whatever to get up there.

One day, a couple of my friends were soaking in the hotsprings, naked of course. (This was circa 1973). A huge, muscular, tough-looking guy showed up--they took him for a local logger--with his two young daughters. My friends began to wonder if the big guy was about to evict them--he looked like he might well be packing a gun.

The upshot? The big local and his two daughters took of all their clothes, and got into the hotsprings with my friends. That's how things were back then--nobody was uptight, nobody thought children needed to be "protected" against a little nudity, and if you were willing to haul a heavy backpack up to a relatively isolated spot, you could take off your clothes if you wanted--it was all considered "natural." (Who's about to insist that wild animals wear diapers in case someone's kids are offended?)

So, I'm w/ Sgt Rock and others above--share the shelter, turn your head when appropriate, don't be uptight--if you're really, really concerned about your privacy, why would you want to sleep in a shelter open to all comers? Haul up a 4-person tent if you want to shut others out. Don't sleep in a shelter if you want it to yourselves (that's what the hiker was told, btw---not to even think of sleeping in a shelter that wasn't full, even though AT shelters are clearly open to all until full.) But, above all, lighten up! We've got enough constraints to deal with in the city--don't import them into the little bit that's left of the wild.

saimyoji
12-13-2004, 22:19
Actually I think I prefer my tent, not for nudity, but for a whole host of other reasons. While not a prude (I have been known to do the naked-wildman-dance-under-the-full-moon) I guess I am a little over protective.

As for hiking 2000 miles naked: that seems like it'd raise some extra problems: sunscreen, ticks, general dirt not blocked by clothes, Poison Ivy!!...

TakeABreak
12-14-2004, 00:01
Cascader, I think it is just sick for man to go skinny dipping or as you said soaking, nude with his daughters, that is just sick.

But as far as the family goes, in the original post, it sounds like they didn't want them to begin with as said earlier. Also what make a family think they just go in and take over a shelter and no one else can come in. The family should not have been their to begin with in my book, especially if they were a group of 5 or more as stated in the A.T.'s shelters ediquette guide lines.

Second I have come into shelters soaked and informed peole I was going to be changing into dry clothes, if you don't like hypothermia it's the intelligent thing to do.

I have also been their with women,they informed what they were going to do, I said, OK, I will be looking this way when your done let me know.

The SOBO thing at baxter is that they a lot of sobo's come want to stay the night and the summit katahdin and then spend another night, as explained to me by baxter rangers, when I was going to do sobo in 99 (which had to get off and do a nobo). Is that you are not a sobo until after you have climbed Katahdin, and then they ask that unless it is late in the day, that you continue because they are so crowded there.

RITBlake
12-14-2004, 01:27
As he entered, the occupants: a family of uncertain religious persuasion, informed said hiker they did not want him to stay due to their values. Said hiker said (basically) "Nuts to you, I'm staying.

I was suprised most people are talking about the hiker and not the family. Seems like they were the ones that were very rude to start. I would have said exactly what that guy said.

A sketchy paranoid family hunkering down in a shelter somewhere in the middle of the woods??? fugitives? :-?

Pencil Pusher
12-16-2004, 01:48
This all reminds me of a story from my youth in the North Cascades. We used to hike to a natural hotsprings--someone had built a square cedar box where the thermal water came in. It was an amazingly good feeling after climbing the 5 miles + 3,000 foot elevation gain or whatever to get up there.
Kennedy Hot Springs? If so, it's now buried under tons of mudslide debris. We hiked in from the Lost Creek trail and it was very nice to have that all to ourselves to soak in. Though I can't say I'd get naked with strangers for a dip in the springs. There's a spring near Stevens Pass where they all get naked, but I've never been to it. But on this topic, getting naked to change clothes is acceptable and it seems to me the family insisting otherwise was being unreasonable. Had both the hiker and the family been a little more accomodating to each other, I'm sure they could've worked out a reasonable compromise.

cascader
12-19-2004, 15:30
Yeah, it was Kennedy Hot Springs. Wow, buried under tons of debris--that makes me sad, though I doubt I'll be backpacking in that area again.

Interesting reactions to that post w/ its memory of 30 yrs ago--makes that time period as well seem buried under tons of debris--the Reagan years, the yuppification of the youth culture, the rise of the Christian right, the born again movement, the new cultural obsession with child abuse, some of it needed (like the exposure of all the abusive priests out here in New England) and some hysterical--what a long time ago it does seem, what an innocent and utopian (and kind of silly) time by contrast. Very different atmosphere then, esp on the West Coast, or at least my part of it in Seattle--communes, impromptu nude beaches on Lake Washington, nakedness absolutely fine when camping in the high country (tho' no one hiked naked--that seems intrusive and uncomfortable and I never heard of anyone doing it back then). But I guess I myself wouldn't take off all my clothes in front of my own daughter--not because I think it's "sick," but that in these times it would not send the right message. At all. But I don't think it was sick back then in that very different context--hey, you had to be there. And, yes, that time is gone--you really can't go home--

Still, anyone who wants to change clothes in a shelter is OK by me. And anyone who wants a shelter to themselves for puritanical reasons should go to one of the places where you can reserve locked cabins, or lug that big tent.

Doctari
05-29-2006, 15:31
Having worked at 2 "amusement parks" I have discovered there are people who (My words) "look to be offended" seems the only reason they go anywhere is to be offended, so they can complain about it, usually loud & long, to anyone & every one. And, (my experience) they blow the whole thing WAY out of proportion, making for a better story.

Just a guess, this is possibly how the story really should have been told: Hiker came into the shelter, family DEMANDED he leave with out a please or thank you. Hiker stated factually "this is a public shelter". Family then mentioned "religous reasons", Hiker "whatever. I need to get out of these wet clothes, if you could please turn around while I change." Family refused! hiker changed as family stared, then complained he "paraded around naked" when all he did, following shelter etequate, was change from wet clothing to dry after giving fair warning.

I have met people like this family, so, while this may or may not be how the story unfolded, I have seen similar scenarios enough to bet that my version is at least possible, even probable.

Just another reason to avoid shelters.


Doctari.

Uncle Silly
05-29-2006, 16:39
As for hiking 2000 miles naked: that seems like it'd raise some extra problems: sunscreen, ticks, general dirt not blocked by clothes, Poison Ivy!!...

Actually, ticks are LESS of a problem for nudist hikers -- it's easier to feel them crawling on you, thus easier to find them before they dig in. Sure, poison ivy and dirt and sun have a little easier time getting directly to your skin, but then poison ivy and dirt can transfer from your clothes to your skin pretty easily too. And if you're really hiking that far nude, your tan won't take long to build up -- no more sunburn. Heh. Forget the prudes; more people should hike nude.

shiningpathb4me
02-07-2007, 22:10
The story is true but the thread originator left out some rather important details. 1) It was raining. 2) The mother told the hiker that due to religious reasons, he could not sleep in the shelter around her underage daughters. 3) the Hiker in question politely informed the family (the father of whom walked up from his trip to the spring) what the rules were about shelter use, and if they didn't want to sleep with him they would have to leave he wasn't 4) The hiker in question warned them that he was going to strip out of his wet clothes and change into dry (2 or 3 times) 5) the family was so upset by this that left in the middle of the storm to parts unkown.

It's real simple folks - You don't tell other hikers that they can't sleep in the shelter with you and your family, whatever you personal prejudices may be. When someone is wet and cold and needs to change their clothes, you turn your head when asked, not act indignant and offended.

shiningpathb4me
02-07-2007, 22:16
Furthermore - parents should teach their children tolerance, charity, and the golden rule instead of expecting a fellow traveler to leave in the middle of a storm because of their sick minds feel that being hospitable would somehow jeopardize ther virtue. Sound like a *turd family* if you ask me, and their children are paying for it.

Grampie
02-08-2007, 11:21
I just have to share an Shelter Etiquette story from my thru.
While hiking SOBO thru Mass. I stopped at Wilcox North Shelter. Two section hikers came in and we started to talk. They asked "how do you reserve a shelter." I told them that you could not and any one could stay at one. They than told me that they had stopped at Wilcox South Shelter and there was a couple staying there and that they had it reserved. They told the two guys that they would have to move on, so they did. As I hiked on to that shelter, where I had planned to stay, I thought about how I was going to handle that situation and decided to do what any normal thru-hiker would do. Come into the shelter, greeted any one there and start to claim a spot. When I arrived a couple were in the shelter. They had a nice fire going, in the fire pit, plenty of wood cut and had staked out most of the shelter floor with blankets and quilts. They asked me if I was staying and I sad "yes". I asked them if they were and they just looked at each other with a blank look. They left the sheter and walked away to talk. When they returned they informed me that "something had come up and we will be leaving." I think that something was me. They packed up and left. Telling me that I could burn the wood that they had gathered.:rolleyes:

minnesotasmith
02-08-2007, 15:53
2) The mother told the hiker that due to religious reasons, he could not sleep in the shelter around her underage daughters.

The proper response IMO would have been to say that he did not have those religious reasons for controls on his behavior, not having whatever subdenomination's beliefs they did, so that those reasons did not apply to him. Thus, he'd be staying. (Note that the family did not claim his staying there was illegal; that'd be impossible to claim plausibly, and they probably knew it.)

Webs
02-08-2007, 16:17
The GSMNP has rules that you have to get a permit, which we did on our last hike thru there. I'm not sure what that permit really buys you - no one every questioned whether or not we had one. They have some weird rule that you are considered a thru-hiker if you start and finish 50 miles outside the park I think. Are non-thrus supposed to give up shelter space to thrus? It was never an issue, I just was curious.


Yes, i think the rule is 50mi before and 50mi after. Our section ended about 30 mi after the end of the park, but we were basically considered thrus anyway. I think there was a rule that, if the shelter was full, a thru-hiker was allowed to pitch a tent (which we did most nights while there, b/c the shelters were often full), whereas otherwise it was not permitted. We had a lot of trouble getting permit (i.e. pay phones not working, cell not working, didn't know exact sch in advance) and ended up not having one, but tenting worked out fine for us. Oh the fun of GSMNP! :p

Phil1959
02-08-2007, 16:46
Ya would think religious people would want to show the children the right thing to do, and welcome a stranger in out of the rain!!!! Maybe his mistake was not making an offering to them(sorry could not resist!)

gsingjane
02-08-2007, 17:41
We had a siimilar situation but it resulted in us leaving, not the other hikers. One time last November I was out with my two daughters and son and it had been raining ALL day. We were all pretty near hypothermic when we hit the shelter, and we had just gotten dried off and warm and were napping in the shelter when two male hikers showed up.

Boy, I just cannot tell you I was happy to see them! But, I had promised my husband that I would not have the girls share a shelter with strange men, so out in the rain we went and pitched our tent. Which leaked. Which led to an extremely cold and miserable night. I still didn't think I had the right to ask the other hikers to leave, though... I can't say I look back on this night fondly but it never occurred to me that I could or should have tried to prevent them from staying.

This was the second horrible experience I've had in two times staying at this particular shelter (the first was when we were attacked by hellgrammites!!!) and so I think I'm done with it, now. I can take a hint.

Jane in CT

The Weasel
02-08-2007, 17:56
I think that's an excellent point. What is so horrifying about seeing somebody naked for a few minutes? It ain't the end of the world and it's bound to happen one way or another. People running around naked is one thing, catching a peak of a person quickly changing is another. But again, it won't kill anybody to look the other way for a few seconds...

Sheesh. I'm sorry, but I can't help being a lawyer sometimes....

First, my sense of 'trail etiquette' is that if the weather is truly nasty, there is always room for one more in a shelter. That can make for some very, very close quarters. Even if there is a reservation system, someone arriving in the midst of a storm should be allowed inside at least until they can get their tent out of their gear and set up. That might be impractical, though, and the late arrival should be accommodated.

Second, though, is the 'legal' aspect. As anyone who has visited public beaches in the south of France or much of the Caribbean can attest, it is possible for men and women to change clothes, totally, without being seen by others to be naked. Someone who insisted on being nude, and able to be seen by children, may find a complaint being made with the authorities. While it is very possible that it would be dismissed, that can be a very scary thing; as my Article notes, a conviction for 'public indecency' can result in being required to register as a sexual offender.

Thru hikers who have never been on the trail before should realize that "citizens" (people who are short visitors) and especially youth groups may not be as accommidating to thrus as we think they should.

The Weasel

mnof1000v
02-08-2007, 18:50
I think people who do not fully comprehend the use of the trail simply cannot grasp some facts about the trail. Just because you arrive first, doesn't mean you own the place. And just because you live by a particular set of beliefs, it does not mean other free individuals must abide by your system.

The GSMNP does have a reservation system, and does often have crowded shelters. However, two spaces are supposed to be reserved for thru-hikers in each shelter each night. That said, people holding permits usually aren't so accomodating. I recall coming over Clingman's Dome with 3 fellow thru's late in the day during a 33 degree downpour. Upon arrival at a full shelter (mostly spring-breakers), we were told we'd have to tent. No accomodations were going to be made for us - no way, no how - and we all wound up pitching tents in the downpour.:mad:

Lone Wolf
02-08-2007, 19:19
two spaces are supposed to be reserved for thru-hikers in each shelter each night. That said, people holding permits usually aren't so accomodating. I recall coming over Clingman's Dome with 3 fellow thru's late in the day during a 33 degree downpour. Upon arrival at a full shelter (mostly spring-breakers), we were told we'd have to tent. No accomodations were going to be made for us - no way, no how - and we all wound up pitching tents in the downpour.:mad:

that "2 space" rule isn't in the backcountry rules. if the shelter holds 14 and you arrive and 14 people are there with proper permits, then you tent. that's just the way it is.

Jester2000
02-08-2007, 19:22
Yah, it's my understanding that the long distance permit deal allows you to tent outside a shelter if it's full, which others are not allowed to do.

NINpigNIN
02-08-2007, 19:59
Yah, it's my understanding that the long distance permit deal allows you to tent outside a shelter if it's full, which others are not allowed to do.

Yep. The only tent camping permitted along the A.T. through GSMNP is when a thru-hiker arrives at a full shelter. And then they're supposed to stay at the shelter site. I've read a couple of the shelter registers that talk about shelters made for 12 with 16 people and others who actually put their tents up inside the shelter itself (I'd imagine these would be inside the renovated ones where they've extended the roof to make the "porch" areas.

I've got two weekenders planned for GSMNP next month and for both (one I have reservations for already) I'm planning on using Kephart Shelter since it is 3+ miles off the A.T. That way my group doesn't take space away that may be used by NOBOs.

Lone Wolf
02-08-2007, 20:30
I've got two weekenders planned for GSMNP next month and for both (one I have reservations for already) I'm planning on using Kephart Shelter since it is 3+ miles off the A.T. That way my group doesn't take space away that may be used by NOBOs.

thru-hikers are in no way special. altering your trip because of them is crazy. first come, first served.

generoll
02-08-2007, 20:53
There is a persistant belief that thru hikers in some way have special rights where shelters are concerned. I've heard hikers state with great authority that thrus have priority where shelters are concerned. This is of course nonsense and is not stated in any of the 'rules' that I am aware of. The bottom line as far as I am concerned is that it's first come first served. Dunno just how strongly someone wants to insist on that. I suppose that it's kinda like two people arguing over a parking space at the mall. I've never seen a situation where it got ugly, but I suppose that it could happen. Does anyone have firsthand knowledge of such a situation? As far as I am aware such things have always been settled peacefully. Peacefully being a relative term.

smokymtnsteve
02-08-2007, 20:58
that "2 space" rule isn't in the backcountry rules. if the shelter holds 14 and you arrive and 14 people are there with proper permits, then you tent. that's just the way it is.

during "thru-hiking" season the park service doesn't issue 14 permits for the 14 person shelter,,,a couple shelter slots are kept open with no official reservations made for them in anticiaption of thru hikers.


but what do U care U big butch canine ,,,u ain't gonna stay in a shelter anyway

Jester2000
02-08-2007, 21:33
I f you want to ensure space in a shelter you need to pick up a BSR "Shelter Clearing Outfit," which was demonstrated at Trail Days a couple of years ago.

eightiesguy
02-08-2007, 21:36
thru-hikers are in no way special. altering your trip because of them is crazy. first come, first served.

As another member of NINpigNIN's group, we aren't altering our trip because we feel that the Thrus are special. We are looking at having a group of 4 people total (which would occupy probably 1/3 of the shelter), and really would prefer not have to crowd into an over filled shelter.

Honestly, if it were just the two of us, then we would probably prefer staying along the AT just for the experience of meeting and talking to the thru hikers.

NINpigNIN
02-08-2007, 21:50
We're not altering anything, we were taking factors into consideration. As eightiesguy said, one of those factors is that with a group of four we don't want to run into a possibility of an overcrowded shelter. Two of the four have never been backpacking before.

Another factor is that the hike to Kephart Shelter from the Kephart Prong trailhead is an easy 2.0 miles along an old Jeep road with only an 800 foot elevation gain over that entire distance. Again, trying to keep it easy for the n00bs.

If we had planned on staying at Icewater or Davenport and then decided to change to Kephart solely because of the thru-hikers, then it would be altering.

generoll
02-28-2007, 15:17
dunno if this is exactly the right place for this, but on the subject of tents in shelters, here's a link you might find of interest.

http://trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=167714

Sly
02-28-2007, 15:45
But, I had promised my husband that I would not have the girls share a shelter with strange men, so out in the rain we went...

To each their own but I can't understand why you left simply because they were male.

Lone Wolf
02-28-2007, 15:52
setting up a tent in a shelter is simply rude.

Pacific Tortuga
02-28-2007, 18:27
setting up a tent in a shelter is simply rude.

Wolf seems to know alot about shelter's. :-?

Jack Tarlin
02-28-2007, 19:32
Maybe because he stayed in a lot of them, til he knew better, and learned to avoid them!

But he's 100% right about the tent thing......tents belong on tentsites, and not in shelters.

bfitz
02-28-2007, 20:08
You should expect to bump elbows and step on toes in a crowded shelter. It's a community place. People will talk, cook, hang gear, maybe have a fire and stay up late. If you want privacy, peace and quiet, elbow room etc. that's what tents are for. You have absolutely no right to anything but common courtesy in a shelter. Anyone who whines about noise and talking at 930 but bangs around making breakfast at 530 am like its perfectly acceptable is discourteous! It is perfectly acceptable, just hypocritical in the case of the nightime whiner....

DMA, 2000
02-28-2007, 21:11
Is this the first broad and emphatic defense of Wingfoot on Whiteblaze?

bfitz
02-28-2007, 21:26
To each their own but I can't understand why you left simply because they were male.Her husband made her promise, Sly:rolleyes: . The poor kids had to suffer through the rain because of it, though. Bet they won't fall in love with hiking.

Skidsteer
02-28-2007, 21:54
Is this the first broad and emphatic defense of Wingfoot on Whiteblaze?

How did you draw that conclusion?

DMA, 2000
02-28-2007, 22:27
Well, most everyone seems to be taking the side of the hiker who came in from the rain. Having read Wingfoot's 1st person account of this story on Trailplace...I'm assuming the exact same thing didn't happen to two people in just the same way.

Skidsteer
02-28-2007, 22:28
Well, most everyone seems to be taking the side of the hiker who came in from the rain. Having read Wingfoot's 1st person account of this story on Trailplace...I'm assuming the exact same thing didn't happen to two people in just the same way.

Oh........

I wouldn't want to see Wingfoot naked either.

Panzer1
02-28-2007, 22:32
Her husband made her promise, Sly:rolleyes: . The poor kids had to suffer through the rain because of it, though. Bet they won't fall in love with hiking.

Yea, I know what you mean. I had a very close friend that I could never get to go backpacking with me. He kept telling me a story about when he was a kid they took him out backpacking in the winter and he froze. Even when he was 50 years old he still would not go backpacking anytime of the year because of that experience. Hiking was over for him.

Panzer

sliderule
02-28-2007, 22:46
during "thru-hiking" season the park service doesn't issue 14 permits for the 14 person shelter,,,a couple shelter slots are kept open with no official reservations made for them in anticiaption of thru hikers.



Last year (2006), the NPS held out four slots per shelter.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-28-2007, 22:58
In defense of GsingJane and her husband, I wouldn't sleep my teen and pre-teen granddaughters in a crowded shelter with fellows I didn't know either. While 99.9% of you fellows are perfect gentlemen, it is the .1% that are not gentlemen that would persaude me to err on the side of caution and keep my babies tucked under my wing in our tent. (Seen the current thread on 'Saved'?)

sliderule
02-28-2007, 22:59
Yep. The only tent camping permitted along the A.T. through GSMNP is when a thru-hiker arrives at a full shelter.
Except at the site of the former Birch Spring Gap shelter. Tents are allowed there, as there is no longer a shelter.

TinAbbey
02-28-2007, 23:00
i remember reading this post on trailplace. its memorable for some reason. and as i remember wingfoot was the anonymous hiker that came upon that family...i could be wrong but its never happened before

i would enjoy it if this thread could get all riled up about this topic!

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-28-2007, 23:05
I wish the GSMNP would add some legal backcountry campsites. Not everyone likes sleeping with rodents (if I did, I'd still be married to my ex :D)

generoll
02-28-2007, 23:12
The Smokies are full of legal backcountry campsites. With a very few exceptions the only shelters are along the AT.

Baum Trigger
02-28-2007, 23:16
The Smokies are full of legal backcountry campsites. With a very few exceptions the only shelters are along the AT.


Yes, a little over 100 of them and if any of those were located close to the AT, I'm sure those would be rodent infested as well (many of the more popular sites are!)

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-28-2007, 23:20
I meant legal campsites along the AT. I use some of the backcountry campsites in the Smokies fairly regularly.

joel137
02-28-2007, 23:46
You should expect to bump elbows and step on toes in a crowded shelter. It's a community place. People will talk, cook, hang gear, maybe have a fire and stay up late. If you want privacy, peace and quiet, elbow room etc. that's what tents are for. You have absolutely no right to anything but common courtesy in a shelter. Anyone who whines about noise and talking at 930 but bangs around making breakfast at 530 am like its perfectly acceptable is discourteous! It is perfectly acceptable, just hypocritical in the case of the nightime whiner....

The sun sets at 9:30, the sun rises at 5:30;)

(talking summertime with the above stats)

I wonder if the banging pots at 5:30 had anything to do with the after 9:30 noise??? :-?

sliderule
02-28-2007, 23:55
The sun sets at 9:30, the sun rises at 5:30;)

(talking summertime with the above stats)

I wonder if the banging pots at 5:30 had anything to do with the after 9:30 noise??? :-?
I know that, on occasion, there is most certainly a correlation.

Lone Wolf
02-28-2007, 23:56
Maybe because he stayed in a lot of them, til he knew better, and learned to avoid them!

But he's 100% right about the tent thing......tents belong on tentsites, and not in shelters.

no s**t. thanks jack. obviously left coast fishes are fu**in clueless.:D

rafe
03-01-2007, 00:03
But he's 100% right about the tent thing......tents belong on tentsites, and not in shelters.

As a rule, I'd agree. But I remember a hot summer night in June, 2005 at Glen Brook shelter in CT... when a couple of thrus set up their tents in the shelter, because of the mosquitos. Since they were the only ones who chose to stay in it, I didn't complain and saw no problem with it.

Lone Wolf
03-01-2007, 00:10
As a rule, I'd agree. But I remember a hot summer night in June, 2005 at Glen Brook shelter in CT... when a couple of thrus set up their tents in the shelter, because of the mosquitos. Since they were the only ones who chose to stay in it, I didn't complain and saw no problem with it.

they don't belong in the woods..they had a TENT. set it up, crawl in it. setting a tent up in a man-made structure is totally weenie. you subscribe to that though, terrapin.:rolleyes:

rafe
03-01-2007, 00:18
they don't belong in the woods..they had a TENT. set it up, crawl in it. setting a tent up in a man-made structure is totally weenie. you subscribe to that though, terrapin.:rolleyes:

I didn't say I "subscribe" to it, LW. I slept in my tent that night, away from the shelter. My only point is that if there's no contention for the shelter, there's no harm in doing what they did. That's all. Don't put words in my mouth.

Sly
03-01-2007, 00:23
In defense of GsingJane and her husband, I wouldn't sleep my teen and pre-teen granddaughters in a crowded shelter with fellows I didn't know either. While 99.9% of you fellows are perfect gentlemen, it is the .1% that are not gentlemen that would persaude me to err on the side of caution and keep my babies tucked under my wing in our tent. (Seen the current thread on 'Saved'?)

Well then maybe they shouldn't have set up in the shelter in the first place. What if the "strange males" came in late when the kids were asleep?

Sly
03-01-2007, 00:25
I didn't say I "subscribe" to it, LW. I slept in my tent that night, away from the shelter. My only point is that if there's no contention for the shelter, there's no harm in doing what they did. That's all.

Yeah, but you don't know when others are going to show up...

rafe
03-01-2007, 00:30
Yeah, but you don't know when others are going to show up...

If more folks show up and ask for space, they should take the tents down. Agreed. On my last section I had the shelters to myself almost every night. All I'm saying is that "shelter etiquette" is always situational.

Marta
03-01-2007, 07:20
In defense of GsingJane and her husband, I wouldn't sleep my teen and pre-teen granddaughters in a crowded shelter with fellows I didn't know either. While 99.9% of you fellows are perfect gentlemen, it is the .1% that are not gentlemen that would persaude me to err on the side of caution and keep my babies tucked under my wing in our tent. (Seen the current thread on 'Saved'?)

I completely disagree. What is the message here? That to avoid the .01% of bad apples, you should fear all men? Much more useful for the girls to start developing judgement while they're in your company, to start working on that radar that can separate the dangerous from the normal. Okay, so we're talking about hikers. Strike the word "normal" and substitute "not dangerous in this situation." Girls also need to work on their ability to control interactions, and not just run away.

Many people have very poor radars. Their thought processes go pretty shallowly, like "Well dressed and clean shaven=trustworthy. Unkempt=dangerous." I think everyone here knows that's not true. Some of the more successful serial killers have used that stereotype to lure victims.

Besides, efforts to keep girls completely away from men frequently backfire because they are so incredibly curious about them that they will seek them out. Much better for men to lose their mystery...and be revealed for the people that they are. They don't completely lose their appeal, but one becomes more discriminating...

My $.02.

Now I will step down off the soap box and go have breakfast with my husband.

Marta/Five-Leaf

Blissful
03-01-2007, 13:00
Glad I have a son. :) My son loves shelters, so we will probably be near them on this hike. I hope to stay in my tent unless the weather forces other plans or I'm in GSMNP and have no choice.

But if I had young teenage daughters, they'd be in tents and nowhere near shelter areas in the first place. (esp with some of the shenanigans I've seen with occupants at shelters - like the pot smoking). Set up tents by a stream or under some nice trees. And with a good tent, you can stay nice and dry and even dry out some in rain.

Lyle
03-01-2007, 13:14
Glad I have a son. :) My son loves shelters, so we will probably be near them on this hike. I hope to stay in my tent unless the weather forces other plans or I'm in GSMNP and have no choice.

But if I had young teenage daughters, they'd be in tents and nowhere near shelter areas in the first place. (esp with some of the shenanigans I've seen with occupants at shelters - like the pot smoking). Set up tents by a stream or under some nice trees. And with a good tent, you can stay nice and dry and even dry out some in rain.

OK Blissful,

I've never met you, but assume you are a relatively liberated, free-thinking, self-reliant woman. Most women backpackers I've met fall into this catagory or very close.

It surprises me that you have this seemingly double standard for you teenage boy (will be near them because he enjoys them) and your attitude if he were female (in tents, nowhere near shelter areas). The pot-smoking influence would be the same, either gender.

I have no kids, so I don't mean to be judgemental here. I think you are great to give this opportunity to your son. I'm just surprised.

Lyle

Ewker
03-01-2007, 13:17
Lyle, I thought the same thing. You just beat me to it.

sliderule
03-01-2007, 13:25
Besides, efforts to keep girls completely away from men frequently backfire because they are so incredibly curious about them that they will seek them out.

Thank goodness for that phenomenon. Without it, I may never have gotten a date!!!

sherrill
03-01-2007, 13:34
Far better to be curious about a guy in a shelter (with you there) than with a bear or raccoon digging in your food bag. :p

Pennsylvania Rose
03-01-2007, 14:17
As a parent of 3 teenagers (2 girls and a boy), and a high school teacher, I can assure you that there isn't anything questionable that goes on in shelters that can't be found in public high schools. (Guess that doesn't say much for schools, huh?) My kids think shelters are cool because of the people that they get to meet. I've always worried more that the kids would be rude and disturb others rather than them being exposed to something unseemly or scary.


BTW, Blissful, my two oldest are extremely jealous of you and PB. They want to thru so badly, but can't for a few more years.

sliderule
03-01-2007, 14:26
As a parent of 3 teenagers (2 girls and a boy), and a high school teacher...

You don't teach English, by chance, do you?

Outlaw
03-01-2007, 14:36
You don't teach English, by chance, do you?

Wondering the same thing myself.;)

Blissful
03-01-2007, 16:11
OK Blissful,

I've never met you, but assume you are a relatively liberated, free-thinking, self-reliant woman. Most women backpackers I've met fall into this catagory or very close.

It surprises me that you have this seemingly double standard for you teenage boy (will be near them because he enjoys them) and your attitude if he were female (in tents, nowhere near shelter areas). The pot-smoking influence would be the same, either gender.

I have no kids, so I don't mean to be judgemental here. I think you are great to give this opportunity to your son. I'm just surprised.

Lyle


It isn't a double standard at all. My 16 1/2 yr old son takes after my hubby. He loves the social scene, and thus, the shelter. it's the main reason he's going on the trail, BTW. I am not a socialite, sharing sleeping space with strange men. Sure I'll do it if I need to (weather or other). But that's not me. I'll eat my food at the shelters. Share a fire. Talk to people there. But sharing my sleep with rodents or a man a foot away is not my cup of tea. I prefer my tent and my privacy. I go for the wilderness adventure of it. Not to see if I can be a man at a shelter (I like being a woman who wants privacy, BTW. And as far as being liberated, I like being under the headship my hubby, though sometimes that gets tested, ha ha. If he had said no to my thru hike, for instance, I wouldn't be doing this. But he has said, yes, yes yes! hurray. And he has helped me in more ways than anyone could count).

Anyway, if I want teen girls (I work with them at my church in a Teen Adventure group, btw) to experience the outdoors, sleeping in a trail shelter is not my idea of wilderness experience or something they need to go through to prove anything in life. I'd rather they camp by a stream or under pine trees. That is wilderness. Let's get real. Women are not men. And these days, you can hardly walk down the street alone at night. I hate it, but that's the way it is. You have to watch everything. Be safe and err on the side of caution. And that's what I would do if I needed to safeguard teenage girls on a backpacking trip.

gsingjane
03-01-2007, 16:23
Wow, I am very surprised that so many found fault with my and my husband's agreement vis-a-vis male hikers and shelters. I thought we did the considerate thing by moving out and did not impose our values on others.

In terms of what my husband and I decide regarding our children, my thought would be that, as in every other family and pretty much every other parenting decision that doesn't involve public health or safety, that is between the individual parents and their individual children. Just as with many of the other folks on this board who have successful working relationships with their partners, over the years we've both learned to compromise, and this is one of the areas on which I've agreed to concede. Again, that would seem to be purely my affair.

I certainly don't subscribe to the notion that if my girls don't sleep with strange men in shelters, they'll grow up fascinated by men (or strange men!) in general. For Pete's sake, they live with their two older teenage brothers - that should eliminate most of the mystique right there! I also hope that a cold and rainy night didn't ruin my children's enthusiasm for backpacking (it hasn't so far) but I guess I will have to wait another 5 or 10 or maybe 20 years to know that for sure. We are planning our spring trip now and certainly nobody has said that they don't want to go.

I am just sort of puzzled at how what I thought was an extremely non-confrontational way to handle a situation became so controversial anyway. But that's WB for you, I guess!

Jane in CT

p.s. to Sly: we were out on a weekday on a cold and rainy day in late November and had no reason to expect that any other hikers would come along, given that we hadn't seen any for the entire day, and had slept alone the prior night. But I will certainly keep your views in mind for next time.

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 16:52
Um...note to Terrapin.

Tents are mosquito proof. That's why they all come with bug netting, in case you were wondering what the mesh was for.

So, the excuse of setting up a tent in a shelter cuz it was buggy is ridiculous.

And as for the "If anyone showed up and wanted to stay, then they could have said something," well that's ridiculous. That makes the later arrivals be the "bad guys" and it makes them "inconvenience" the shelter tenters.....who shouldn't have set up in there in the first place.

Tents don't belong in shelters, and setting one up in a shelter is laziness, period. Tents belong on tentsites.

Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously hasn't spent much time on the Trail.

rafe
03-01-2007, 16:56
Tents don't belong in shelters, and setting one up in a shelter is laziness, period. Tents belong on tentsites.

Perhaps you need to explain that to the two NOBO thru hikers of whom I speak at the particular shelter in CT where this event occured. ;)

My sole point was that no harm was done, and nobody was inconvenienced by their actions, as far as I know. End of story.

Gray Blazer
03-01-2007, 17:00
Um...note to Terrapin.

Tents are mosquito proof. That's why they all come with bug netting.
Good one. I didn't even notice that one. Now if you're tent leaked a lot and it was raining and there were a ton of mosquitos.......:-?


Don't set your tent up in a shelter. I ought to make that my WB avatar.

sliderule
03-01-2007, 17:06
A couple of years ago my 11 year-old son and I were at a shelter on a very inclement day. A young lady stopped in for a break. She announced that she would like to change into dry clothes. My son and I turned our backs until she was finished. For some reason, I thought nothing of the event. I am fairly certain that my son thought nothing of it.

Was it a non-event? Or am I failing to recognize some great trauma that my son may have endured? To use one of my late mother-in-law's favorite expressions, could he have been "scarred for life?"

Gray Blazer
03-01-2007, 17:08
A couple of years ago my 11 year-old son and I were at a shelter on a very inclement day. A young lady stopped in for a break. She announced that she would like to change into dry clothes. My son and I turned our backs until she was finished. For some reason, I thought nothing of the event. I am fairly certain that my son thought nothing of it.

Was it a non-event? Or am I failing to recognize some great trauma that my son may have endured? To use one of my late mother-in-law's favorite expressions, could he have been "scarred for life?"You'd better get him some psychologists right away!!:banana

Lyle
03-01-2007, 17:30
He loves the social scene, and thus, the shelter. it's the main reason he's going on the trail, BTW. I am not a socialite, sharing sleeping space with strange men. Sure I'll do it if I need to (weather or other).

I'd rather they camp by a stream or under pine trees. That is wilderness. Let's get real. Women are not men. And these days, you can hardly walk down the street alone at night. I hate it, but that's the way it is. You have to watch everything. Be safe and err on the side of caution. And that's what I would do if I needed to safeguard teenage girls on a backpacking trip.

Well, I wasn't trying to judge anything, just not what I would have expected, but, again, I don't really know you. The fact that you yourself don't like to sleep in the shelters is appreciated, and you are compromising by sleeping near them so that your son can experience the social opportunities is commendable, and puts your other comments into perspective.

Just one point - food for thought, if you will - in the hypothetical case where you were out with young ladies. Since I think everyone is in agreement, that the vast majority of male backpackers are trustworthy and honorable, wouldn't it be safer to sleep at least near a shelter, where assistance would only be a shout away if in fact you met someone who planned to take advantage? The only exception to this would be if you found yourself at a shelter with a lone male hiker, or group of hiker friends. I would think that as long as there were a diverse group, you could count on all the assistance possible. This wouldn't be an option if you were tenting too far from a shelter.

Again, I'm not trying to imply that women can't defend themselves, or that this is really much of an issue among the folks you would meet on the trail, but you voiced it as a possible concern. Considering your comment about women not being able to walk down the street alone, you are probably right in most areas. There is, after all, safety in numbers - like near a shelter. ;)

Anyway - absolutely no offense intended, just an interesting (to me anyway) discussion.

Have a fantastic hike - I'm jealous.
Lyle

bfitz
03-01-2007, 17:49
I'm with T2 regarding a tent in a shelter. No harm=no foul.

Unless there is a genuine reason to be fearful, I see no reason to segregate the sexes. If there's a bad vibe or a real sense of danger, don't just sleep in your tent, get the heck outta there!! A few yards and a flimsy tent isn't going to protect anyone from actual danger. Any jerks who smoke pot or engage in other such activities when there are young kids or those who find such things objectionable around ought to be scolded, and even reported if such oppurtunity exists. Shelter etiquette is definitely contextual.

bfitz
03-01-2007, 17:57
I just felt bad for the poor girls who had to sleep in miserable conditions when a perfctly good shelter was just yards away. Hard to comprehend, but to each their own. I'm sure plenty of folks will find issues with the way I raise my kids too ....:p

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 18:04
You're missing the point, Bfitz. Why should it be up the later arrivals to have to say something, and make themselves the "bad" guys in the process? People shouldn't be put in the situation where they have to say things likje "Um, would you mind taking your tent down so we can stay?" or "Would you mind not having your dogs in the shelter?" or "Would you mind NOT playning the accordion any more?" or whatever.....people shouldn't be put in the situation where THEY have to stand up and request that people alter objectionable behavior. It'd be far better if people didn't engage in the objectionable behavior in the first place.

Even the smallest of tents takes up a lot of space in a shelter, and also, a tent puts up a "wall" between its occupants and anyone else who wants to stay in the shelter that night. Setting up a tent inevitably creates "exclusive" private space in a structure desinged to be used as a communal space, where everyone is equal. Anyone that sets up a tent in a shelter is absolutely saying "Hi, we demand our right to be in this communal space, but we want to be totally apart from anyone else who might be staying here."

Well, if that's your attitude, and you want your own space and privacy, well that's what tentsites are for.

Marta
03-01-2007, 18:13
Women can't walk down the street alone at night? That is, fortunately, not true. Should one use caution and exercise judgement? Of course. But a blanket "It's not safe!"? BS.

This is the Saudi Arabian mindset, where women can only go out with an escort of male relatives.

I am fairly astonished to hear female hikers parroting the nonsense my mother has told me all my life, and tells me still.

But...I will stop ranting on in this vein. I've already said more than enough.

Marta/Five-Leaf

rafe
03-01-2007, 18:15
Anyone that sets up a tent in a shelter is absolutely saying "Hi, we demand our right to be in this communal space, but we want to be totally apart from anyone else who might be staying here."

These two hikers weren't saying much... but if they had, I suspect they'd have said what I was thinking and feeling at the moment, which was, "damn these mosquitos" or something along those lines. I think I've mentioned that they were the only two people in the shelter... so they really had no need to communicate their thoughts or intentions. PS: It was at least 9 PM or so and past dusk when they set up their tents. IMO, it wasn't likely that more hikers would arrive that night.

Marta
03-01-2007, 18:15
I'm with T2 regarding a tent in a shelter. No harm=no foul.

Unless there is a genuine reason to be fearful, I see no reason to segregate the sexes. If there's a bad vibe or a real sense of danger, don't just sleep in your tent, get the heck outta there!! A few yards and a flimsy tent isn't going to protect anyone from actual danger. Any jerks who smoke pot or engage in other such activities when there are young kids or those who find such things objectionable around ought to be scolded, and even reported if such oppurtunity exists. Shelter etiquette is definitely contextual.


Ditto what he said.

bfitz
03-01-2007, 18:18
You're missing the point, Bfitz. Why should it be up the later arrivals to have to say something, and make themselves the "bad" guys in the process? People shouldn't be put in the situation where they have to say things likje "Um, would you mind taking your tent down so we can stay?" or "Would you mind not having your dogs in the shelter?" or "Would you mind NOT playning the accordion any more?" or whatever.....people shouldn't be put in the situation where THEY have to stand up and request that people alter objectionable behavior. It'd be far better if people didn't engage in the objectionable behavior in the first place.

Even the smallest of tents takes up a lot of space in a shelter, and also, a tent puts up a "wall" between its occupants and anyone else who wants to stay in the shelter that night. Setting up a tent inevitably creates "exclusive" private space in a structure desinged to be used as a communal space, where everyone is equal. Anyone that sets up a tent in a shelter is absolutely saying "Hi, we demand our right to be in this communal space, but we want to be totally apart from anyone else who might be staying here."

Well, if that's your attitude, and you want your own space and privacy, well that's what tentsites are for.
Not missing any points. That's why I said shelter etiquette is contextual. Sometimes you just know that no one else is coming, and if you are proactive about keeping people from having to speak up in that fashion or experience any such social anxiety it's no problem. Once I was in a shelter with a mother and daughter hiking a section (not hardened hikers...) and the mosquitos were vicious that night. I had some mosquito coils incense but it was running low. They were kindof at the end of their rope as far as "tolerating" the rugged outdoors. They had a tent and I suggested they hang it like a teepee from the ceiling of the shelter and sleep inside it. Saved them from the mosquito onslaught and I get the feeling both of them might have hit the road the next morning if they had been kept up irritated all night. Instead they showed up at the next shelter the next day, ready for more. Mosquitos weren't that bad that night. Oddly, the only other hiker around some from 03 will remember, was Rick the Lone Wolf, and I wasn't looking or smelling very savory either, the two of us must have seemed pretty scary to normals but mom and daughter were completely unfazed, and we all ended up having great conversation and I think both were fascinated by the idea of thru-hiking etc. So we had mom and young daughter and two very strange men and a tent set up in a shelter and we built a big fire and stayed up late and it was a good experience for all. I repeat, no harm = no foul.

leeki pole
03-01-2007, 18:20
I'm with LW on this one, tear 'em all down. Put everybody on equal footing. You want a walk in the woods? Be self-sufficient and enjoy.:)

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 18:21
Um, you just don't get it, do you?

Setting up a tent in a shelter isn't go to make anyone less available to mosquitoes, Terrapin. Assuming one's tent isn't full of holes, a tent provides protection against insects no matter where you set it up, and if the tent is full of holes, wll putting it up in a shelter ain't gonna help out much.

And while they might have been the only people at the shelter when they arrived, how on earth were they in a position to know who might be arriving later and would want to stay in the shelter?

In short, these people didn't really care whether or not anyone might be inconvenienced.

Nice folks.

rafe
03-01-2007, 18:26
Much ado about nothing, Jack. Have it your way. Might as well argue with a brick.

bfitz
03-01-2007, 18:27
Wrong this time Jack. You know there are no absolutes. I know you are a stickler for courtesy, and that's a good thing, I am too. But if there is no one to be dicourteous to it can't happen. You can swear and fart and be naked and set up your tent, and it don't matter. Tree falling in the forest...

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 18:29
And you might as well get a few more Trail miles in before speaking with such authority, Mr. expert!

Anyone who thinks that it's cool to put up a tent in an A.T. shelter has pretty obviously not spent much time on the A.T.

bfitz
03-01-2007, 18:30
Some said our keg party at a shelter was wrong, too, but we knew every person within twenty miles of trail and there wasn't even the possibility of any harm or any stranger walking up unexpectedly. I don't need unbreakable rules, since I have common courtesy and common sense.

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 18:30
That was directed at Terrapin, Bfitz.

You're wrong on this one, but at least you've hiked some! :D

bfitz
03-01-2007, 18:32
And you might as well get a few more Trail miles in before speaking with such authority, Mr. expert!

Anyone who thinks that it's cool to put up a tent in an A.T. shelter has pretty obviously not spent much time on the A.T.What's "much time"?

sliderule
03-01-2007, 18:32
And you might as well get a few more Trail miles in before speaking with such authority, Mr. expert!


Just curious, how many miles are required before one is permitted to have an opinion?

bfitz
03-01-2007, 18:33
ooops.....

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 18:34
Um, Bfitz, if you're talking about Rattle River shelter near Gorham, that's a VERY well-travelled section of Trail in August and September. You had no way of knowing who might arrive unexpectedly; and furthermore, you probably did not, in fact, know "everyone" within 20 miles, and there's a really good chance that someone arriving at a shelter or campsite at the end of the day might not want to find a keg party going on. Kegs don't belong in shelters any more than tents do. And what's more, you know it.

rafe
03-01-2007, 18:36
And you might as well get a few more Trail miles in before speaking with such authority, Mr. expert!

About 1600 so far on the AT, Jack, over about 30 years time. Plus plenty of non-AT miles, in the Whites, the DAKs, etc.


Anyone who thinks that it's cool to put up a tent in an A.T. shelter has pretty obviously not spent much time on the A.T.Maybe you missed the first few words in my reply to you (in Msg #63) were, "As a rule, I'd agree."

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 18:39
Anyone can have an opinion, Sliderule, but it's pretty obvious from some of the posts here that some folks simply haven't spent much time hiking on the A.T. It's pretty clear that ole Terrapin has logged more miles on a keyboard in any given week than he's logged in the woods in any given summer.

Doesn't stop him from being an expert, tho.

bfitz
03-01-2007, 18:42
We had a dragnet. Very few would be capable of escaping it. Certainly someone could have come to the road at our end and hiked in a few hunded yards to sleep in the shelter after dark, but that would have been highly unlikely. I suppose that was what you call a calculated risk. Maybe that invalidates my stance, but as it turned out, the "no harm" maxim was maintained. Being lucky is part of breaking the "rules" succesfully I guess...I'm glad it happened, just like I'm glad the mother and daughter in my tent story set up their tent. In that particular shelter a bit before great barrington, I believe...there is plenty of room and 3 more could've showed up no problem.

bfitz
03-01-2007, 18:44
As a rule, I'd agree, too.

Lyle
03-01-2007, 19:05
Heaven forbid this thread die down. Jack, I see your point about mosquitoes. No reason someone can't move out to a tent site if they want mosquito protection. How about this scenario:

It's mid November, SNP. Few hikers on the trail, it's a weekday. Arrive at shelter in nice weather, but expecting severe thunderstorms. Unpack in the shelter, have supper. Rain begins, soon changes to freezing rain and sleet. As the trees become coated in ice, limbs start breaking and falling, eventually full trees are giving way. You are thankful you have the solid walls and roof of the shelter to offer some protection. About 9:30 pm, you can't get warm. The wind has picked up and is blowing into the shelter. The freezing rain has turned to very heavy snow - blizzard conditions. You set up your tent inside the shelter to help conserve heat and keep the snow off your bag.

Next morning, the snow has stopped, but there is about 1.5 feet of snow on the ground and the tree branches are bent down, almost touching the trail. You attempt to hike, but you cannot get above a squatting position. You move to the Skyline drive to hike on to the next shelter. The roadway is completely blocked by drifts up to 10 feet deep. You make the next shelter and again set up your tent, to help stay warm. Not another person was seen all day.

The next morning you have a fantasticly beautiful hike out in sunshine with all the trees glistening. Your ride picks you up, but you must wait another 2 days before Skyline Drive is re-opened so you can get a ride back to your vehicle which is parked along the Drive.

In your book (which many of us genterally subscribe to) were these actions reasonable and acceptable? This is not hypothetical, it happened, and we did not feel a bit guilty about it.

Lyle

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 19:12
Lyle:

I regards to the situation you described, the actions were eminently reasonable and acceptable. And if there were other people present. it would've made sense for everyone to share tents, as it would've made everyone warmer.

One thought, tho....if these folks found it impossible to keep warm after nightfall, that's a pretty good indication that they didn't dress appropriately or bring enough gear, or didn't bring gear that could handle November mountain conditions.

But no, of course you shouldn't feel guilty about what you guys did under these remarkable circumstances. I'd have probably done pretty much the same thing!

Jester2000
03-01-2007, 19:23
People shouldn't be put in the situation where they have to say things like. . ."Would you mind NOT playing the accordion any more?"

You know, it was actually a concertina, and you had every opportunity to tell me you didn't enjoy it. Now, if someone busts into a shelter with a Schrammel, that's a wee bit offside. But a concertina? You know you liked it.

eventidecu
03-01-2007, 19:23
I think most people who set tents up inside a shelter are wanting the "perceived security" of "the shelter" and the privacy of "the tent" and throwing the justification of "bugs" out there to appease them selfs. Personally I don't care as long as their not keeping others from using the shelter and the person, as I would, offer to take it down as soon as someone walks into camp (day or night) that needs a space. And take it down without hesitation if the space is needed FOR ANYONE. Jeez it's probably a free standing tent anyway that would take what, a whole 2 minutes to pull your bag out and pick up the tent and walk it outside?

If you say you shouldn't put it up in the first place no matter what because "thats just wrong", well thats no different than "stealth camping" somewhere you KNOW you shouldn't be. And WHO AMONG US hasn't done that? :-?

The rule doesn't say "stealth camp but leave no trace", it says "NO TENTING / CAMPING" anywhere other than DESIGNATED tent / camping spots. I don't see many people if any chastising others for "stealth camping". They give them tips on how to do it and finish with "Leave no trace", as if thats an authorization code for breaking the rules aka "stealth camping" somewhere they KNOW they should not be. Sorry but if you've stealth camped anywhere ever you don't qualify to bitch about where anyone else pitches their tent. Having said that you should not ever refuse anyone a space in a shelter so you can pitch a tent. Matter of courtesy not rule. Ever notice everything we grip about usually comes back to giving someonw "common courtesy"? Hmmm:-?

Lyle
03-01-2007, 19:28
Good, was just getting the impression that you were totally inflexible with this. I have had other people tell me we were wrong (not on WB).

Generally speaking, tents don't belong in shelters for all the reasons stated. As long as we reserve the right to declare an emergency and suspend this rule.

I'd vote for the position that Kegs never belong in shelters. I have hiked in from a road after a long drive to get to the trail, and would have been quite ticked off if I found a kegger going on. That's what towns and bars are for, or get permission to have your party on private property - have done that when I was younger.

Lyle

Jester2000
03-01-2007, 19:31
I've never stealth camped. Do I get permission to say that tents in shelters, which I've seen before, in Virginia and CT, are visually unfriendly, not to mention silly?

If you're married to the idea of feeling a hardwood floor under you, why not just set your tent up in your livingroom and do that for six months?

I guess I just don't understand the perceived benefit of setting a tent up in a shelter. If bugs are the issue, set up the tent next to the shelter.

Can anyone tell me why this would seem like a better option than setting one up, say, on the ground, where tents are traditionally found?

eventidecu
03-01-2007, 19:41
:-? "visually unfriendly?" Do you think that big orange tent is "visually friendly" if it's parked out in the middle of a vista in front of the shelter? "never stealth camped?" Surly you jest! LOL (pun intended there)
I've never stealth camped. Do I get permission to say that tents in shelters, which I've seen before, in Virginia and CT, are visually unfriendly, not to mention silly?

If you're married to the idea of feeling a hardwood floor under you, why not just set your tent up in your livingroom and do that for six months?

I guess I just don't understand the perceived benefit of setting a tent up in a shelter. If bugs are the issue, set up the tent next to the shelter.
The perceived benefit is the same as one gets from being in a tent verses sleeping in the wide open. Hence the word "perceived". :dance
Can anyone tell me why this would seem like a better option than setting one up, say, on the ground, where tents are traditionally found?

Jester2000
03-01-2007, 19:54
:-? "visually unfriendly?" Do you think that big orange tent is "visually friendly" if it's parked out in the middle of a vista in front of the shelter? "never stealth camped?" Surly you jest! LOL (pun intended there)

Um, I don't own a "big orange tent." You're probably thinking about Redneck. And if you asked him nicely, I bet he'd let you set up your tent inside his tent. And then we could put a bivy in that and have a whole Russian Doll thing going on.

By "visually unfriendly," I mean that it sends a message that the person inside is intentionally seperating thenselves, that they don't want to be bothered or in any other way take part in what typically happens in shelters. This may not be at all true, but it makes it a bit uncomfortable to say, "hey, do you mind taking your tent down?"

And I have never, to my knowledge, stealth camped. There are others on this site that might correct me on this, but I think I'm right.

bfitz
03-01-2007, 20:06
I guess I just don't understand the perceived benefit of setting a tent up in a shelter. If bugs are the issue, set up the tent next to the shelter.

Can anyone tell me why this would seem like a better option than setting one up, say, on the ground, where tents are traditionally found?In very rare circumstances setting up or partially hanging a tent in a shelter makes sense, but even if it doesn't make sense, so long as no one is annoyed by it, what's the harm?
Originally Posted by Jack Tarlin
People shouldn't be put in the situation where they have to say things like. . ."Would you mind NOT playing the accordion any more?"There's plenty of elbow room in the woods, this problem is easily avoided.

Jester2000
03-01-2007, 20:10
Are you kidding? The woods are littered with accordion players. Why do you think you hardly ever see any in towns?

Fannypack
03-01-2007, 20:12
That was directed at Terrapin, Bfitz.

You're wrong on this one, but at least you've hiked some! :D
Jack u have made your point... enuff is enuff... cool it.... as u would tell me "Jack, don't have a coronary episode!!!" (I could prolly use a few more adjectives, and words that talk down to people, but i guess I made my point)...

Btw, I don't believe tents belong in shelters. If u are putting up a tent, why put it in the shelter?? to keep it dry? if the bugs are bothering ya in the shelter carry some Deet.

We can't expect persons to act like we want them to act but BJ aka MR. EXPERT (expert on everything from Springer to Big K) seems to think so...

Hit me with it, I am ready... give me your best shot...

Hope to see some of u on the trail the week before Trail Days (http://www.traildays.info/schedule07.html)

rafe
03-01-2007, 20:17
Are you kidding? The woods are littered with accordion players. Why do you think you hardly ever see any in towns?

Hey, not so fast. No lie, the wife and I had a fine time last Saturday night, at the Bedford Congregational Church, two-stepping to the tunes of the Squeezebox Stompers (http://www.squeezeboxstompers.com/).

eventidecu
03-01-2007, 20:17
Well the "big orange" comment was in reference to most tents fancy colors, most of us got that.

If one wants to "intentionally separate" them selfs thats OK with me. Ever heard of the concept "Hike your own hike"? I think most people go hiking for the solitude not a social gathering or social interactions with others. Thats what this sight and rucks are for.

I get the point of it not becoming an epidemic about tents in shelters and it's probably not a good idea for the most part but it's not a cardinal sin either. I'm not going to para phrase your definition of "visually unfriendly" because it sounds like your doing a lot of "assuming" of what "they" are thinking and their attitudes. As I said I would and think others should never refuse someone a space over a tent in a shelter. Make your intentions known politely that you plan on staying and if that one in a thousand hiker that cops an attitude or ignores you than I'd hardly say he or she is sheepish enough to get their feeling hurt if you wind up asking them to make room please, I intend on staying in the shelter tonight.

And to your knowledge? you have never stealth camped? You leave it open that "others on this site" "might correct me but I think I'm right"??? I take that as yes you have. Oops!
Um, I don't own a "big orange tent." You're probably thinking about Redneck. And if you asked him nicely, I bet he'd let you set up your tent inside his tent. And then we could put a bivy in that and have a whole Russian Doll thing going on.

By "visually unfriendly," I mean that it sends a message that the person inside is intentionally seperating thenselves, that they don't want to be bothered or in any other way take part in what typically happens in shelters. This may not be at all true, but it makes it a bit uncomfortable to say, "hey, do you mind taking your tent down?"

And I have never, to my knowledge, stealth camped. There are others on this site that might correct me on this, but I think I'm right.

Skidsteer
03-01-2007, 20:20
In very rare circumstances setting up or partially hanging a tent in a shelter makes sense, but even if it doesn't make sense, so long as no one is annoyed by it, what's the harm?

They commit the unpardonable sin of looking goofy.

Sorta like planting flowers in a toilet.

Fannypack
03-01-2007, 20:28
Anyway, if I want teen girls (I work with them at my church in a Teen Adventure group, btw) to experience the outdoors, sleeping in a trail shelter is not my idea of wilderness experience or something they need to go through to prove anything in life. I'd rather they camp by a stream or under pine trees. That is wilderness. Let's get real. Women are not men. And these days, you can hardly walk down the street alone at night. I hate it, but that's the way it is. You have to watch everything. Be safe and err on the side of caution. And that's what I would do if I needed to safeguard teenage girls on a backpacking trip.
how are u safeguarding the teenage girls? by not sleeping in the shelter?

I can only speak for myself but when staying in a shelter at the end of a day of hiking I have never had the thought cross my mind that i wanted to jump the bones of the female next to me. I maybe wrong but i don't consider sleeping in a shelter with a woman next to me to be the same thing as "sleeping with a woman". Am I missing something on this "safeguarding of teenage girls" need of yours ? Feedback please....

Finally, I will say that since most of the hikers are men that u may find that there is some foul language being used in the shelter as well as other places on the trail, if so, just ask/request for this language to cease (just as u might do in the "off trail" world).... Believe it or not, some men don't even realize that they are cussing since they do it so often..

Blissful
03-01-2007, 20:30
Women can't walk down the street alone at night? That is, fortunately, not true. Should one use caution and exercise judgement? Of course. But a blanket "It's not safe!"? BS.

This is the Saudi Arabian mindset, where women can only go out with an escort of male relatives.

I am fairly astonished to hear female hikers parroting the nonsense my mother has told me all my life, and tells me still.

Marta/Five-Leaf

Marta, love ya, :) but tell this to the escort services then on most of the college campuses now and women are encouraged to use them. It's not Saudia Arabia, it's what our nation has become so it really isn't safe anymore, which is really sad. Near my home, in Charlottesville, just last month there were two attempted rapes with women walking at night. I rarely walk at night on a street or if I need to I have my keys ready, etc.

I'm not saying things like that will happen on the trail. But being prudent, watching your surroundings, etc is wisdom, whether on or off the trail. I never thought hikers would get murdered on the trail either, but they have. And people have talked about having things ripped off, even this past year. One guy is going with a lock and chain for his backpack. Crime happens everywhere. It's just wise to be cautious and be very observant, no matter where you are.

But as far as me taking young girls out camping, I still would have them in tent or be ready to tent even in rain - that's what backpacking is all about. Being ready. And tenting in the rain is fun, esp when you're together playing cards or Yahtzee with your headlamp shining overhead. Cozy and much warmer too. I'd much rather do that then be in a dingy, cold, damp dark shelter with mice running everywhere.

peanuts
03-01-2007, 20:33
thank god i found the "hammock":D:D
i can't believe i just said that!!!:eek::eek:

Fannypack
03-01-2007, 20:37
I've never stealth camped. Do I get permission to say that tents in shelters, which I've seen before, in Virginia and CT, are visually unfriendly, not to mention silly?

If you're married to the idea of feeling a hardwood floor under you, why not just set your tent up in your livingroom and do that for six months?

I guess I just don't understand the perceived benefit of setting a tent up in a shelter. If bugs are the issue, set up the tent next to the shelter.

Can anyone tell me why this would seem like a better option than setting one up, say, on the ground, where tents are traditionally found?
Jester, it is scary, on this issue we think very much alike, even down to the exact words u use... See ya at TD.

Jester2000
03-01-2007, 20:37
Well the "big orange" comment was in reference to most tents fancy colors, most of us got that.

Sorry, I thought you were referring to Redneck's ginourmous base camp tent. It could be put up with the shelter inside it, I believe.




I think most people go hiking for the solitude not a social gathering or social interactions with others. Thats what this sight and rucks are for.


Well, if they're out for the solitude, one wonders why they're in a shelter at all. Shelters ARE social locations. Anyone who doesn't know that learns it right quick.



As I said I would and think others should never refuse someone a space over a tent in a shelter. Make your intentions known politely that you plan on staying and if that one in a thousand hiker that cops an attitude or ignores you than I'd hardly say he or she is sheepish enough to get their feeling hurt if you wind up asking them to make room please, I intend on staying in the shelter tonight.

I guess I just believe that I shouldn't be put in the position of having to ask someone politely to take down a tent that's in a shelter, 'cause, well, you know. . .

And you'll note that I admit that assumptions are made, and that they may be entirely wrong.



And to your knowledge? you have never stealth camped? You leave it open that "others on this site" "might correct me but I think I'm right"??? I take that as yes you have. Oops!

Actually, don't take it that way. I've spent many nights in the woods and more in bars. I say that I haven't stealth camped. Because I am not God, I admit to the possibility that I may be wrong. I may have, unwittingly, camped in an out of bounds area in the Blue Stack Mountains in Ireland, for example. Who knows? Or is stealthing an intentional thing only? Furthermore, I may have forgotten something I've done in the past. If someone on this site reminds me of something I've done that I've forgotten, I'll admit it.

You're not one of those people. At least not yet. But way to assume.

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 20:43
I've seen Jester stealth in Blister's old living room in Hanover. Does this count? If we hadn't woken him up, I think he'd still be there.

Jester2000
03-01-2007, 20:45
I've seen Jester stealth in Blister's old living room in Hanover. Does this count? If we hadn't woken him up, I think he'd still be there.

Yes, but she drew the line when I tried to set up my tent in the bathroom.

Fannypack
03-01-2007, 20:48
But as far as me taking young girls out camping, I still would have them in tent or be ready to tent even in rain - that's what backpacking is all about. Being ready. And tenting in the rain is fun, esp when you're together playing cards or Yahtzee with your headlamp shining overhead. Cozy and much warmer too. I'd much rather do that then be in a dingy, cold, damp dark shelter with mice running everywhere.
I believe these are very valid reasons for tenting but in this post (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=330968#post330968) u seems to say that there was a "safeguarding the teenage girls issue"?

eventidecu
03-01-2007, 21:14
Jester I'm just crackin on ya buddy! But I like that " I admit to the posibility that I may be wrong" LOL Furthermore I may have forgotten something I've done in the past", ...BUT..."I may have unwittingly (insert crime) done something wrong" ...but..."If someone reminds me of something I've done that I've forgotten,,,THEN I'll admit it...:D Sounds like your a lawyer or been paying for one for A LONG LONG TIME! LOL ,,, No confessions no statements and no waivers,,,if ya got me then charge me,,,otherwise refer all further corespondence to my attorney at We Cheatem and Howe!!!:eek:

Jester2000
03-01-2007, 21:27
Jester I'm just crackin on ya buddy! But I like that " I admit to the posibility that I may be wrong" LOL Furthermore I may have forgotten something I've done in the past", ...BUT..."I may have unwittingly (insert crime) done something wrong" ...but..."If someone reminds me of something I've done that I've forgotten,,,THEN I'll admit it...:D Sounds like your a lawyer or been paying for one for A LONG LONG TIME! LOL ,,, No confessions no statements and no waivers,,,if ya got me then charge me,,,otherwise refer all further corespondence to my attorney at We Cheatem and Howe!!!:eek:

Yah, it's "Dewey, Cheatem & Howe!"

I have to admit to the possibility that I'm wrong because my experience shows that I've been wrong so many times in the past.

. . .but not about stealthing.

Marta
03-01-2007, 21:29
Marta, love ya, :) but tell this to the escort services then on most of the college campuses now and women are encouraged to use them. It's not Saudia Arabia, it's what our nation has become so it really isn't safe anymore, which is really sad. Near my home, in Charlottesville, just last month there were two attempted rapes with women walking at night. I rarely walk at night on a street or if I need to I have my keys ready, etc.

I'm not saying things like that will happen on the trail. But being prudent, watching your surroundings, etc is wisdom, whether on or off the trail. I never thought hikers would get murdered on the trail either, but they have. And people have talked about having things ripped off, even this past year. One guy is going with a lock and chain for his backpack. Crime happens everywhere. It's just wise to be cautious and be very observant, no matter where you are.

But as far as me taking young girls out camping, I still would have them in tent or be ready to tent even in rain - that's what backpacking is all about. Being ready. And tenting in the rain is fun, esp when you're together playing cards or Yahtzee with your headlamp shining overhead. Cozy and much warmer too. I'd much rather do that then be in a dingy, cold, damp dark shelter with mice running everywhere.



"It's just wise to be cautious and very observant, no matter where you are." That's about the only thing you said that I agree with. The rest is mostly hysteria. I can hardly believe the level of paranoia people are operating under now. I don't know where it comes from--maybe it's created by overblown press reports that feed our fears by pumping up the danger of almost everything. (Headline news tonight: "Can the XXX you are eating KILL you?")

There have been escort services on college campuses for decades. There was one on the campus of the podunk school I attended in rural KY in the early 80s. Having to escort girls around at night gives them something to do and makes the security department feel important. It's a lot more fun that enforcing parking restrictions. (The one girl I know who was raped at that school was raped at a frat party. The perpetrator got off scot free. The girl dropped out of school and left the state. I am not belittling the serious consequences of brutality.)

I live in the city and walk and jog around all the time. Are there neighborhoods and parks where I don't do that? Sure. But I've lived on the South Side of Chicago (at the U of C--in a very bad neighborhood) and spent time in some majorly nasty cities, like Bogota, and I can tell you absolutely and for sure that women in those places do go about on their own, and live to tell the tale.

Do I think about crime and personal security? Of course. I hardly ever leave my pack unattended, especially at events like Trail Days. Stores and restaurants that require me to leave it outside usually don't get my patronage. On my hike last year, I met one man who made me uneasy, a weird guy in Hanover who was pretending to be a hiker, when he obviously wasn't--jeans, cotton T-shirt, peculiar gear, lack of knowledge about the Trail... I took precautions to make sure I wouldn't be going in the same direction at the same time he was.

Is tenting fun, with kids and in the rain? Of course it is! But I'd never express it in terms of safety.

BTW, my #2 son and I are planning to hike up Springer this weekend. We will be tenting--not in the shelter--since we're out for the weekend and we expect the area to be crowded. My next longer-than-a-weekend hike--the John Muir Trail--doesn't even have shelters. I like tents just fine.

Back to the main subject of this thread--I really don't get what all the fuss about tents in shelters is. I've seen it a few times, but never when it really inconvenienced other people. I've done it about twice myself, to keep the bugs off. With a Tarptent, I can just hang a string from the ceiling and the tent doesn't take up any bigger footprint than my sleeping bag. Why not take the tent outside? Well, I got to the shelter first and I didn't want to get my tent wet and have to carry a wet tent all day.

Marta/Five-Leaf

Jester2000
03-01-2007, 21:36
Well, I got to the shelter first and I didn't want to get my tent wet and have to carry a wet tent all day.

Marta/Five-Leaf

Do you find, in general, that it's very buggy when it's pouring rain?

Blissful
03-01-2007, 21:38
I believe these are very valid reasons for tenting but in this post (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=330968#post330968) u seems to say that there was a "safeguarding the teenage girls issue"?

Safeguarding as in safeguarding 13 and 14 year old girls like my church teen group who are entrusted to me by their parents. Having them sleep side by side in a shelter next to strange men is not something they would want me to do. And it is my responsibility to plan for their safety - ie - carrying a tent and not relying on shelter use. This is not to say male hikers are not gentlemen (I've slept in shelters with guys who were, btw. God love 'em! BUT I've also been in shelters with guys smoking pot, which doesn't quite make one's neurons function normally after drug use). However, I don't plan to take that chance, esp with young girls and strangers you know absolutely nothing about, side by side, in a shelter. Safeguarding as to be prudent and to plan accordingly for their safety and security as their parents (and I) would wish - like making sure they carry the tents they need so we don't rely on the shelter system but can camp elsewhere.

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 21:40
Groups should never stay in shelters, for all sorts of reasons.

bfitz
03-01-2007, 21:43
Safeguarding as in safeguarding 13 and 14 year old girls like my church teen group who are entrusted to me by their parents. Having them sleep side by side in a shelter next to strange men is not something they would want me to do. And it is my responsibility to plan for their safety - ie - carrying a tent and not relying on shelter use. This is not to say male hikers are not gentlemen (I've slept in shelters with guys who were, btw. God love 'em! BUT I've also been in shelters with guys smoking pot, which doesn't quite make one's neurons function normally after drug use). However, I don't plan to take that chance, esp with young girls and strangers you know absolutely nothing about, side by side, in a shelter. Safeguarding as to be prudent and to plan accordingly for their safety and security as their parents (and I) would wish - like making sure they carry the tents they need so we don't rely on the shelter system but can camp elsewhere.
Now that's sensible.

Blissful
03-01-2007, 21:48
On my hike last year, I met one man who made me uneasy, a weird guy in Hanover who was pretending to be a hiker, when he obviously wasn't--jeans, cotton T-shirt, peculiar gear, lack of knowledge about the Trail... I took precautions to make sure I wouldn't be going in the same direction at the same time he was.
Marta/Five-Leaf


Yep, and that is all I'm saying, too. :)

Glad I had the time I had in Italy, being around some interesting characters, and what to do. Living here in rural part of VA and growing up in the Cakskills of NY, I am not city bred, so uneasiness and suspicion is more common. (I hate cities!) I will likely be much more at home on the trail in the woods than on a city street at night.

Jester2000
03-01-2007, 21:53
On my hike last year, I met one man who made me uneasy, a weird guy in Hanover who was pretending to be a hiker, when he obviously wasn't--jeans, cotton T-shirt, peculiar gear, lack of knowledge about the Trail... I took precautions to make sure I wouldn't be going in the same direction at the same time he was.
Marta/Five-Leaf

Wait -- was his name Jack, and was the direction he was traveling towards 5 Olde?

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 21:58
Hey Jester, I noticed that description too, but was sorta hoping nobody else did!! :D

Peculiar gear?

Damn, I guess that 110-liter Osprey really does make a statement. Time to downsize, maybe!

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-01-2007, 22:17
If the tent flooded, I'd take the kids to the shelter.... but what business would I have taking kids into woods if I don't know how to set up my tent where it won't be getting flooded?

bfitz
03-01-2007, 22:17
Sign at shelter:

No spooning!

bfitz
03-01-2007, 22:18
If the tent flooded, I'd take the kids to the shelter.... but what business would I have taking kids into woods if I don't know how to set up my tent where it won't be getting flooded?Now that is a very good question.

Footslogger
03-01-2007, 22:19
Sign at shelter:

No spooning!

================

No forking either !!

'Slogger

Skidsteer
03-01-2007, 22:23
Sign at shelter:

No spooning!


================

No forking either !!

'Slogger

And 'what happens in the shelter, stays in the shelter.'

Footslogger
03-01-2007, 22:26
And 'what happens in the shelter, stays in the shelter.'

==============================

Even if it's just innocent sporking ??

'Slogger

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-01-2007, 22:29
You adults can spoon and fork all you want - just don't do it in front of my grandkids :D

Bravo
03-01-2007, 22:30
==============================

Even if it's just innocent sporking ??

'Slogger

As long as it's titanium. I'm too tired at the end of the day for that heavy sporking.

Jester2000
03-01-2007, 22:32
You adults can spoon and fork all you want - just don't do it in front of my grandkids :D

C'mon. You're grandkids won't mind a little innocent utensil love.

Skidsteer
03-01-2007, 22:34
==============================

Even if it's just innocent sporking ??

'Slogger

Oh in that case...Get your spork on!(I almost, read almost, posted a dancing banana). :D

Marta
03-01-2007, 22:38
Do you find, in general, that it's very buggy when it's pouring rain?

In Vermont this past summer, yes.

Marta/Five-Leaf

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-01-2007, 22:41
C'mon. You're grandkids won't mind a little innocent utensil love.Hurrrummppp - I'll be teaching them about using their utensils..... :D

Gaiter
03-01-2007, 22:46
The worst shelter etiquette I've encountered:
i arrived at a shelter (near perisburg) and there was two brothers and they each had a grandson w/ them (12 & 14), they had already taken over the shelter, and i should have known to just set up my tent, but i was tired, there was a recent bear sighting by that shelter and it was close to raining, and so I asked if they could make a little room. i went to get water and when i got back, they had split going to both sides, putting me in btn. the two grandsons, another big clue to set up my tent. that whole night i was kicked and hit and rolled on as the grandsons tossed and turned all night, i even had to literally move both of them off of me, pushing them as far away from me as possible. I always put my glasses in my boots and i had them next to my head to keep them dry, but no, those were knocked on the ground, had to wake one of them up to find my glasses, and one of my boots got a little wet.
The next morning the grandfathers thought it was the funniest thing, I wasn't laughing.

Programbo
03-01-2007, 22:46
All I know is back when I was on my thru in the 70`s a thru-hiker would always be among the first to give up his or her place in a shelter to someone if there wasn`t enough room..However it was rare for a shelter to be full back then

Gaiter
03-01-2007, 22:52
oh i should mention even after i was in there, the shelter could have comfortably held 2-3 more people before the boys started kicking around

Marta
03-01-2007, 22:56
Wait -- was his name Jack, and was the direction he was traveling towards 5 Olde?

I was pretty sure it wasn't BJ because this guy was pretending to be a SOBO.

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2007, 22:57
Whew. Gets ME off the hook!

Me, a SOBO??

I'd sooner die. :D

rafe
03-01-2007, 22:59
Whew. Gets ME off the hook!

Me, a SOBO??

I'd sooner die. :D


::: bites tongue :::

eventidecu
03-02-2007, 11:08
:eek: T2<---hands Jack a compass that only points south,,,LOL
::: bites tongue :::

sliderule
03-02-2007, 11:11
Anyone can have an opinion, Sliderule, but it's pretty obvious from some of the posts here that some folks simply haven't spent much time hiking on the A.T. It's pretty clear that ole Terrapin has logged more miles on a keyboard in any given week than he's logged in the woods in any given summer.

Doesn't stop him from being an expert, tho.

Well, Jack, if "number of posts" are any indication, a reasonable person might draw a different conclusion!!!

In your expert opinion, Jack, what would you consider to be the "top ten" shelter etiquette violations?

Grampie
03-02-2007, 11:31
[QUOTE=Jack Tarlin;
Anyone who thinks that it's cool to put up a tent in an A.T. shelter has pretty obviously not spent much time on the A.T.[/QUOTE]

During my 2001 thru I slept in a shelter probably 75 times. I never incountered anyone putting up a tent in one. I do agree with Jack, any on doing so "obviously not spent much time on the AT."
In my estimation, a tent doesn't belong in a shelter. Set it up outside.
I think if I came to a shelter, where I was planning to stay, and saw a tent inside, I'd probably tell the person that it wasn't proper trail etiquette and ask them to take it down. But that's only me, and how I feel.

rafe
03-02-2007, 11:55
I think if I came to a shelter, where I was planning to stay, and saw a tent inside, I'd probably tell the person that it wasn't proper trail etiquette and ask them to take it down. But that's only me, and how I feel.

If there was plenty of room for both of you -- the other guy in the tent and you presumably not -- would you still ask him to take it down?

bfitz
03-02-2007, 12:13
Yeah, maybe he would take it down without being asked. Or maybe noone would show up, and it wouldn't matter at all. Or maybe it would be an inexperienced mother and daughter trying to escape bugs and rain and you'd say "never mind keep it up, I'm not a jerk" and offer them some hot soup.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-02-2007, 12:14
A question for all you Mr. & Ms. Manners just in case a dino ever has to stay in a shelter - would it be a no-no to use a double bivy in a shelter provided it did not use more footprint than the double occupants? (Dinos really don't like rodents and female dino will squeal like a girl everytime one runs thru her hair).

bfitz
03-02-2007, 12:16
A question for all you Mr. & Ms. Manners just in case a dino ever has to stay in a shelter - would it be a no-no to use a double bivy in a shelter provided it did not use more footprint than the double occupants? (Dinos really don't like rodents and female dino will squeal like a girl everytime one runs thru her hair).I wouldn't mind.

Lone Wolf
03-02-2007, 12:16
A question for all you Mr. & Ms. Manners just in case a dino ever has to stay in a shelter - would it be a no-no to use a double bivy in a shelter provided it did not use more footprint than the double occupants? (Dinos really don't like rodents and female dino will squeal like a girl everytime one runs thru her hair).

Buy a tent. Set it up. Sleep in it.:)

Footslogger
03-02-2007, 12:19
A question for all you Mr. & Ms. Manners just in case a dino ever has to stay in a shelter - would it be a no-no to use a double bivy in a shelter provided it did not use more footprint than the double occupants? (Dinos really don't like rodents and female dino will squeal like a girl everytime one runs thru her hair).
===========================================

I don't think so. Afer all you're taking up the same space you would be otherwise. I have a single OR Bug Bivy and used it in shelters during buggy periods on the trail in 2003. Never infringed on anyone else's space.

'Slogger

saimyoji
03-02-2007, 12:32
A question for all you Mr. & Ms. Manners just in case a dino ever has to stay in a shelter - would it be a no-no to use a double bivy in a shelter provided it did not use more footprint than the double occupants? (Dinos really don't like rodents and female dino will squeal like a girl everytime one runs thru her hair).

You may be the target of flying mice in the night....:eek:

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-02-2007, 13:30
You may be the target of flying mice in the night....:eek:The furry little critters would roll off my bivy - it hangs from above...

Captn
03-02-2007, 14:32
How bad is Snoring in the shelters?

Lone Wolf
03-02-2007, 14:34
How bad is Snoring in the shelters?

really bad.

Footslogger
03-02-2007, 14:35
How bad is Snoring in the shelters?

============================

Gives all new meaning to "Getting a Buzz" !!

'Slogger

bfitz
03-02-2007, 14:41
We kept top 10 snorers and farters lists in the registers. Many a battle was waged for the titles.

Ewker
03-02-2007, 14:49
I have sleep apnea so when I cut loose snoring you better have ear plugs :eek:

Jack Tarlin
03-02-2007, 15:16
Sliderule:

I've never really thought about a "top ten" list of shelter etiquette violations, but since you asked, here are the things that bother me the most. Or I should say, these are things that bothered me in the past, as I generally only stay in shelters if I have to (like the Smokies) or if the weather is really horrible, or if they're pretty much empty. Funny thing......shelter etiquette violations tend not to bother you if you're sleeping happily in your tent 150 yards away!

But in no particular order:

*I don't like people who spread their crap all over the shelter and take up the
space that by rights, belongs to two or three folks. Then they give you a
dirty look when you show up obvioulsy hoping for a spot; they try to imply
that the shelter is full, and then, very grudgingly, re-arrange all their junk
so there's room for you; while doing this, they imply that you've greatly
inconvenienced them, and that they're somehow doing you a grand favor by
making room for you. In extreme cases, these people will tell folks "Sorry,
shelter's full!" when in point of fact, there's room for plenty more folks.
People like this deserve to crack their ankles within sight of Katahdin.

*People without tents or tarps (usually it's some gram-weenie ultra-lighter)
who seems to think he's entitled to an automatic shelter spot cuz he elected
not to bring a tent. Sorry, fool. That was YOUR decision. Sheleters are
first come, first served, and one's making the voluntary decision NOT to
carry vital gear does NOT entitle them to any special privileges in the
shelter.

*Improper use of electronic devices. You have every right to carry a cell
phone or music player. But that does NOT mean I want to be in a shelter
and hear you call into work, argue with your boss, talk to your sweetie,
place sports bets, or any of the other horrifying things I've seen people do
with cell phones in shelters. In a shelter, keep the damned thing turned
OFF, and have your conversations elsewhere. Anyone whose cell phone
goes offf in the middle of the night in a Trail shelter deserves to be fed to
the Donner Party. Likewise, keeep your music turned DOWN. Not everyone
out there is as crazy about Dave Matthews or the Dixie Chicks as you are.

*Dogs. In any group of seven or eight people, there's probably at least one
who is allergic, or is afraid of dogs, or has had a bad experience with one.
Plus they bark, get mud and crud all over people's stuff, they beg food, eat
stuff they shouldn't, piss on packs, shed hair, and most of all, are all flea
and vermin-ridden. They don't belong in Trail shelters, period. Ever.

*Late arrivals. It is flatly imposible to arrive in a shelter and set up for the
night without greatly disturbing (i.e. bothering and awakening) the folks who
had the good sense to get there before nine. Unless you're crippled with
injuries or the weather is ghastly, you should NOT plan to stay in a shelter
if you arrive after dark. Unlerss, of course, you enjoy being known as a
complete a*******.

*Early risers. Equally annoying are the folks who get up at five and "tiptoe"
around the shelter thinking they can get all their stuff together, cook
breakfast, and hike out without waking everyone up. They can't. If you like
to hit the Trail at first light or before, you need to stay in a tent.

*Snorers. Here's the news, kids. Everyone that has a snoring problem KNOWS
they have a snoring problem, cuz someone, at some time, has pointed it
out to them. Really bad snorers, (i.e. most guys over forty, especially
heavy-set ones) need to stay outside the shelters. First time people tell
you about your snoring, it's usually pretty light-hearted. Second time, folks
don't think it's cute anymore. Third time, they weant you dead. Sleep is
VERY important to long-distance hikers, and nobody has the right to deprive
other hikers of their rest. If you know you have a snoring problem, you
shouldn't plan on staying in a shelter, and anyone who refuses to
acknowledge this is an inconsiderate schmuck. And if you DO snore, other
folks have the right to wake you up, IN ANY WAY NECESSARY!

*People overly sensitive to snorers and other noises. A shelter is communal
space. People will snore, wheeze, grunt, fart. They will stink. They will
make noise at night, in the morning, getting out of bed in the middle of the
night to pee. People REALLY sensitive about this would probably be better
off in their tents. If you want quiet at night, pitch a tent.

*Late night talkers, card, players, etc. Sorry folks, but darkness is quiet
time. If you can't bring yourself to stop the conversation or the card game
when it's obvious people are going to bed, then it's time to move the game
somewhere else.

*Musicians. Just cause you've packed a banjo or harmonica, DO NOT assume
your shelter mates want an impromptu concert every evening. I assure you
they don't. Most Trail musicians are pretty terrible, tho nobody has the
heart or gumption to tell them. And the Trail is NOT a place for beginner
musicians, unlesss you're anxious to retrieve your harmonica from a truly
inconvenient location.

Well, that's ten. I'm sure I can think of some others. First off, register hogs.
These are the folks that spend three hours reading every line of the Trail register and get very offended if you ask to borrow the book for a minute and a half so you can sign in. Very annoying. Then, there are peg-hogs, the ones who use all 23 nails and pegs in the shelter to dry or air out every single item of clothing in their packs, despite the presence of nine other people who need to do the same thing. And along with these guys are the ones who insist on hanging their most loathsome item of clothing right over someone's face, especially when it's dripping wet. Also, yakkety-yaks, the people who feel compelled to engage every human being they see in animated conversation, usually when the other person is writing in their journal, reading,
or otherwise engaged. What else: Oh, yeah, exhibitionists. Unless you're REALLY good-looking, young, and female, I assure you nobody wants to see you get naked. Unless the weather is terrible, go change clothes behind the shelter; likewise, personal hygeine stuff, like sponge baths or intimate area chafe treatment needs to be carried out behind a tree or something, and not by the picnic table when people are making dinner. If you are Scarlett Johansson, please disregard the above. And lastly there are the good folks who feel the need to save your soul and begin their conversations with all sorts of pointed personal questions about one's spiritual well-being. These people are destined for a very special place in hell where the water source is really lousy, kinda like Lehigh Gap in July.

Anyway, that's my list, I'm sure other folks will happily add to it.

Oh. I just re-read this, and it made me laugh. Maybe it should go in the articles section!

Littlest Hobo
03-02-2007, 15:27
Sliderule:

People like this deserve to crack their ankles within sight of Katahdin.


Paging Tonya Harding!:D

bfitz
03-02-2007, 15:30
I second both the thing about space hogs and exhibitionists. The rest depends on context. I think it depends on group dynamics weather staying up late is appropriate or not. If just one whiner wants absolute quiet whie several others are still up, tough. That guy should've tented.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-02-2007, 15:48
Paging Tonya Harding!:DThis ridgerunner scares me. (http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/pete_mcentegart/10/17/ten.spot/tx_harding.jpg)

bfitz
03-02-2007, 15:59
Wow, you didn't have to alter that picture one bit.

MrHappy
03-02-2007, 16:26
Going back a ways, to when Marta and Blissful and others were talking about the double standards regarding guys and gals safety. Double standards based solely on gender can be problematic, but there are double standards that are ok. I'm 6', 180 pounds. There might be people out there who would want to have their way with me, but I'm pretty big and going to put up a good fight, so I can afford to be less cautious. My girlfriend lives in a fairly crime ridden city. She's barely 130 pounds, and honestly pretty weak. When she goes out, she locks her car doors while she's in it and carries mace in her purse. She also tries not to go out alone. It's not because she's a girl, it's just because she is more defenseless.

sliderule
03-02-2007, 16:31
My favorite peeve is with the late arrival.

You hear them in the distance. You look at your watch. It's after midnight.

"It's got to be here somewhere."

"I think we passed it."

"No, it's got to be around here somewhere."

Then "Guys, guys guys!!! I found it!!! Over here!!!"

Within seconds, the shelter is illuminated with a few million candlepower.

The point man does a quick recon, then yells back to the rest of the group, "Guys, there's people sleeping in here!!!"

Well, not any more.

Footslogger
03-02-2007, 16:43
[quote=sliderule;332011]My favorite peeve is with the late arrival.

=======================================


Well THAT ...and we had a guy in 2003 (Rick the Lonewolf) who would arrive late and announce his presence with a blood curdling howl. Some of us had a little talk with Rick and the howling ceased, but he never quite caught on in terms of getting to a shelter at a reasonable hour.

'Slogger

Fannypack
03-02-2007, 16:44
Sliderule:
I've never really thought about a "top ten" list of shelter etiquette violations, but since you asked, here are the things that bother me the most. Or I should say, these are things that bothered me in the past, as I generally only stay in shelters if I have to (like the Smokies) or if the weather is really horrible, or if they're pretty much empty. Funny thing......shelter etiquette violations tend not to bother you if you're sleeping happily in your tent 150 yards away!

But in no particular order:
<snip>
*Snorers. Here's the news, kids. Everyone that has a snoring problem KNOWS they have a snoring problem, cuz someone, at some time, has pointed itout to them. Really bad snorers, (i.e. most guys over forty, especially heavy-set ones) need to stay outside the shelters. First time people tell you about your snoring, it's usually pretty light-hearted. Second time, folks don't think it's cute anymore. Third time, they weant you dead. Sleep is VERY important to long-distance hikers, and nobody has the right to deprive other hikers of their rest. If you know you have a snoring problem, you shouldn't plan on staying in a shelter, and anyone who refuses to acknowledge this is an inconsiderate schmuck. And if you DO snore, other folks have the right to wake you up, IN ANY WAY NECESSARY!
<snip>
so Jack, u are a snorer, right? is this the reason that u TENT? Thx from all the shelter dwellers for tenting.

Footslogger
03-02-2007, 16:52
In my experience ...EVERYONE snors. Some more soft and rythmic, some more loud and violent, but EVERYONE snors !

'Slogger

Jack Tarlin
03-02-2007, 18:06
FPack:

Some nights I snore badly. Some nights a little. Some nights not at all. As previously stated, I only stay in shelters if I absolutely have to. (I'm also very sensitive to noise made by other people). I carry earplugs and so should everyone else. But if one knows one snores regularly, one should avoid shelters, just as a courtesy to others. Everyone sleeps better that way........including the snorer.

smokymtnsteve
03-02-2007, 18:09
ear plugs???why should I carry ear plugs??

wHAt?? I can't hear U:D

Gray Blazer
03-02-2007, 18:30
This ridgerunner scares me. (http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/pete_mcentegart/10/17/ten.spot/tx_harding.jpg)Hey MZ D. About this pic. I hate it when girls have more muscles than me!:eek:

Fannypack
03-02-2007, 18:34
FPack:

Some nights I snore badly. Some nights a little. Some nights not at all. As previously stated, I only stay in shelters if I absolutely have to. (I'm also very sensitive to noise made by other people). I carry earplugs and so should everyone else. But if one knows one snores regularly, one should avoid shelters, just as a courtesy to others. Everyone sleeps better that way........including the snorer.
I remember at Gravel Springs Hut in 98, Professor & Peacepipe had a nice tape recording of u cutting some serious zzzzz's at another shelter. And when they woke u, they had u recorded saying: "who me, I don't snore!"(paraphased).. Sound familar... the good ole days...

Jester2000
03-02-2007, 19:52
*Musicians. Just cause you've packed a banjo or harmonica, DO NOT assume your shelter mates want an impromptu concert every evening.

Accordions are OK, though. Everyone loves an impromptu accordion concert.

bfitz
03-02-2007, 22:03
[quote=sliderule;332011]My favorite peeve is with the late arrival.

=======================================


Well THAT ...and we had a guy in 2003 (Rick the Lonewolf) who would arrive late and announce his presence with a blood curdling howl. Some of us had a little talk with Rick and the howling ceased, but he never quite caught on in terms of getting to a shelter at a reasonable hour.

'SloggerHe was our Minnesota Smith!

Footslogger
03-02-2007, 23:12
[quote=Footslogger;332019]He was our Minnesota Smith!

====================================

I think Rick the Lone Wolf was in a class all by himself !!

Dude wrote the book on being miserable.

'Slogger

bfitz
03-02-2007, 23:19
[quote=bfitz;332265]

====================================

I think Rick the Lone Wolf was in a class all by himself !!

Dude wrote the book on being miserable.

'Slogger
All you had to do was get him talking about science or time machines or computers. I managed to get him toasted once on top of a mountain and he was downright giggly. I read his register entries for months (it was a daily ritual!) before finally meeting him. I'd love to see a collection of his entries. Reality never fits expectations. One of the best was at the patc office in boiling springs, or when he unscrewed the plastic cover on the sign in the privy at Allentown shelter and wrote his entry on a piece of paper and placed it under the cover and screwed it back on so mountain dew couldn't "edit" his missive. Classic!

bfitz
03-02-2007, 23:20
The allentown shelter one was a rant against blueblazin party scum. Hysterical.

Footslogger
03-02-2007, 23:21
[quote=Footslogger;332309]
All you had to do was get him talking about science or time machines or computers. I managed to get him toasted once on top of a mountain and he was downright giggly. I read his register entries for months (it was a daily ritual!) before finally meeting him. I'd love to see a collection of his entries. Reality never fits expectations. One of the best was at the patc office in boiling springs, or when he unscrewed the plastic cover on the sign in the privy at Allentown shelter and wrote his entry on a piece of paper and placed it under the cover and screwed it back on so mountain dew couldn't "edit" his missive. Classic!

=====================================

...or the time in Virginia when he arrived at the shelter and decided no one like him so he slept UNDER the shelter, or at least that's what his entry said the next day when I hiked through.

'Slogger

bfitz
03-02-2007, 23:42
Yup, I remember that one. Wonder how they felt about him being under there? I bet the spiders had a feild day! He lost at least 70 pounds, and was type 2 diabetic, sent his insulin home, didn't need it any more!

rainmaker
03-03-2007, 22:00
If there was plenty of room for both of you -- the other guy in the tent and you presumably not -- would you still ask him to take it down?

I would and have said something like, "boy the bugs must really be bad, maybe no other hikers will show up and ask you to take it down. Madame and I will take this side over here. BTW, where y'all from" ?

bfitz
03-04-2007, 05:51
I would and have said something like, "boy the bugs must really be bad, maybe no other hikers will show up and ask you to take it down. Madame and I will take this side over here. BTW, where y'all from" ?
Excellent thing to say, except you might not have needed to add the hint, because they may already have been ready to take it down in a hot second if anyone else showed up. You ought to give everyone the oppurtunity to fail before you correct them, it's just basic manners!

joel137
03-04-2007, 11:48
My favorite peeve is with the late arrival.



I don't know if its my pet peeve, but it is a peeve, in the SNP we had a couple that arrived at about 2am, I was lucky I was just getting up for the late night pee, so I wasn't woken. Actually for a late night arrival they were polite, they basically found the empty spot in the shelter and immediately crashed; i.e. no long and protracted cooking, finding water, chatting etc etc etc.

Grampie
03-04-2007, 12:08
Most folks who come into a shelter very late, make a lot of noise, shine lights all over are usually not long distance hikers. Most of the time they just hiked in from a near by road, started late and are just conserned with themselves.
These will be the same folks who will complain when you get up at dawn to start your day, and they want to stay in the sack until 10.:-?

mweinstone
03-04-2007, 12:14
in life and on the trail i tollorate anything. no matter what you do , ill move on rather than make you change.you can pee on my stuff and ill just walk. eat all my food while im in the privy , ill quietly pack and leave. you wont tempt me into confrontation on my trail. my peace is not for sale. my buttons cannot be pushed. i enter the woods knowing and exspecting to see drunken idiots rapeing my wilderness. we must pray. we must act. not react.

Grampie
03-04-2007, 12:20
in life and on the trail i tollorate anything. no matter what you do , ill move on rather than make you change.you can pee on my stuff and ill just walk. eat all my food while im in the privy , ill quietly pack and leave. you wont tempt me into confrontation on my trail. my peace is not for sale. my buttons cannot be pushed. i enter the woods knowing and exspecting to see drunken idiots rapeing my wilderness. we must pray. we must act. not react.

:sun :sun You sound like a super nice guy

eventidecu
03-04-2007, 14:11
in life and on the trail i tollorate anything. no matter what you do , ill move on rather than make you change.you can pee on my stuff and ill just walk. eat all my food while im in the privy , ill quietly pack and leave. you wont tempt me into confrontation on my trail. my peace is not for sale. my buttons cannot be pushed. i enter the woods knowing and exspecting to see drunken idiots rapeing my wilderness. we must pray. we must act. not react.

I bet your glad you live in the United States OF America that ME and my FAMILY FOUGHT AND DIED for, because with that attitude we ALL would be speaking the Queens English and by now German, and laughing at all the Innocent (aka passive) people we exterminated (aka killed for sport) because they had that "non confrontational" attitude you speak of. Hell your so out of it you can't even use that little spell checker button up in the right hand corner or bother to attempt to punctuate your writing's properly! Your just too dam lazy to care about anything even your self because it "easier" that way. Just remember it's because God, me and others like me paid a price for you to be able to live that way. The next time you bother praying be sure to thank God he gave your world people like me! You say you can not "tempt me into confrontation on my trail" all you want but I wont allow anyone to "rape" Your "wilderness" because "I" have the fortitude to protect YOU and YOUR lifestyle. Just at least do ME and others the honor of putting enough effort into at least capitalizing your sentences while bragging about how you wouldn't stand up for yourself much less me, my family or OUR TRAIL! Thank you, your welcome,

written by a former US MARINE and proud, proactive keeper of OUR woods.

eventidecu
03-04-2007, 14:48
And another thing MR. Weinstone, ( is that Jewish?) if we, the few, the proud, Americans had not "reacted" to Hitler's little attempt to exterminate the Jewish people and had simply "prayed, acted" but not "reacted", you and your family probably wouldn't be here. So the next time you see someone "rapeing" our American wilderness return the favor and do what you can even if it's voice an objection or report them so your, and my family can have the oportunity to be there for generations to come. This is not only the Land of the Free it's the Home of The Brave!

Gaiter
03-04-2007, 15:03
so what do yall think about sleep talkers/walkers, supposably i've done it a couple of times? any bad experiences w/ sleeptalkers/walkers?

ed bell
03-04-2007, 15:23
And another thing MR. Weinstone, ( is that Jewish?) if we, the few, the proud, Americans had not "reacted" to Hitler's little attempt to exterminate the Jewish people and had simply "prayed, acted" but not "reacted", you and your family probably wouldn't be here. So the next time you see someone "rapeing" our American wilderness return the favor and do what you can even if it's voice an objection or report them so your, and my family can have the oportunity to be there for generations to come. This is not only the Land of the Free it's the Home of The Brave!Whew, I've never met Matt, but I'll be willing to bet you are overreacting. Matt has been known to use hyperbole and utter disregard for punctuation. Don't worry about it, though. You probably aren't the first to take him literally. I think he is just talking about the inner peace he realizes through hiking.:sun

Programbo
03-04-2007, 15:29
If there was plenty of room for both of you -- the other guy in the tent and you presumably not -- would you still ask him to take it down?

I think I`d look at them like they were standing on their head singing the Star Spangled Banner and say, What are you goofy?...For anyone out there who even considers this (Tent IN a shelter..I assume for bugs????) They do make little self supporting mosquito nets you can sleep under that cover your entire upper body (We`ll assume your lower potions are covered in some manner)..They collapse down to nothing and weigh like 10 ounces

Trillium
03-04-2007, 16:42
I think I`d look at them like they were standing on their head singing the Star Spangled Banner and say, What are you goofy?...For anyone out there who even considers this (Tent IN a shelter..I assume for bugs????) They do make little self supporting mosquito nets you can sleep under that cover your entire upper body (We`ll assume your lower potions are covered in some manner)..They collapse down to nothing and weigh like 10 ounces
that sounds like something that I might be interested in. do you have a link or can you share a source?

sliderule
03-04-2007, 17:22
Hell your so out of it you can't even use that little spell checker button up in the right hand corner or bother to attempt to punctuate your writing's properly! Your just too dam lazy to care Thank you, your welcome,

written by a former US MARINE and proud, proactive keeper of OUR woods.

Spell checker does have it's limitations!!!

Sly
03-04-2007, 17:25
I think I'll start using yer for your and you're

Bravo
03-04-2007, 17:31
------------------------------

Programbo
03-04-2007, 19:19
that sounds like something that I might be interested in. do you have a link or can you share a source?

I`m sure there are a bunch of companies making their own versions of this product..Here are a few links online but I`m sure some local place has something like it

http://www.pharmacalway.com/brands/repel/popups/345_346_pop.html

http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/single-sleepscreen.html

http://campmor.stores.yahoo.net/41168.html

eventidecu
03-04-2007, 22:13
Which war were you in that gained us our freedom??? Just wondering.

Which "war" were you in that "EARNED YOU", and YOUR family's "FREEDOM"? My family started with the war against England for this countrys freedom, YOU? I hear Iraq is a good place to start over without the burden of democrocy, wanna a ticket there? The US Marine Corps is giving FREE TICKETS there. Try fighting for your right to bitch there. Why don't you ask Sgt. Rock which "war" he fought for that "gained" his aka "us" family's "freedom". Huh? " JUST WONDERING.
Sincerly, a Retired US Marine.

sliderule
03-04-2007, 22:26
Which "war" were you in that "EARNED YOU", and YOUR family's "FREEDOM"? My family started with the war against England for this countrys freedom, YOU? I hear Iraq is a good place to start over without the burden of democrocy, wanna a ticket there? The US Marine Corps is giving FREE TICKETS there. Try fighting for your right to bitch there. Why don't you ask Sgt. Rock which "war" he fought for that "gained" his aka "us" family's "freedom". Huh? " JUST WONDERING.
Sincerly, a Retired US Marine.

Do you have any plans for Nov 10th?

camich
03-04-2007, 22:29
I`m sure there are a bunch of companies making their own versions of this product..Here are a few links online but I`m sure some local place has something like it

http://www.pharmacalway.com/brands/repel/popups/345_346_pop.html

http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/single-sleepscreen.html

http://campmor.stores.yahoo.net/41168.html


This actually looks pretty interesting...anybody ever use one of these?

Footslogger
03-04-2007, 22:33
Here's an option with full netting and a waterproof bottom section. No wider than a sleeping bag. Used this quite a bit in and out of shelters during my thru.

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/outdoor-research/bug-bivy/

'Slogger

eventidecu
03-04-2007, 22:41
Do you have any plans for Nov 10th?

Other than celibrate my Corps Birth day? No but I'd like to find that guy or anyone with that attiutde out in the middle of the AT anyday. :banana

Programbo
03-04-2007, 22:44
This actually looks pretty interesting...anybody ever use one of these?

No..But I sold a couple of hundred of them in my career :) ..They pack up pretty small and at 10 ounces they aren`t a burden to carry...I have used the larger version of this idea on several trips to Vietnam and the netting is very fine so it keeps out most everything

Jester2000
03-05-2007, 01:14
Spell checker does have it's limitations!!!

Yes, I guess you could say that was an ad homonym attack. . .

sliderule
03-05-2007, 10:13
Yes, I guess you could say that was an ad homonym attack. . .
Yew thawed so, two?

bfitz
03-05-2007, 14:25
Which "war" were you in that "EARNED YOU", and YOUR family's "FREEDOM"? My family started with the war against England for this countrys freedom, YOU? I hear Iraq is a good place to start over without the burden of democrocy, wanna a ticket there? The US Marine Corps is giving FREE TICKETS there. Try fighting for your right to bitch there. Why don't you ask Sgt. Rock which "war" he fought for that "gained" his aka "us" family's "freedom". Huh? " JUST WONDERING.
Sincerly, a Retired US Marine.You're joking, right? I think you guys are out there fighting for wienstones right to think feel and act as he pleases. If you don't believe in that right, why are you fighting for our side?

"And I don't quite know wether to remember or forget that Jesus Christ was the first non-violent revolutionary..."

Bravo
03-05-2007, 17:57
--------------------------------------

generoll
03-05-2007, 18:06
hard to believe that this all got started over whether or not one should pitch a tent in a shelter.

saimyoji
03-05-2007, 18:13
hard to believe that this all got started over whether or not one should pitch a tent in a shelter.


No, it was much simpler than that....It was a story related on WingFoot's sight brought up here for discussion...that's pretty much it....so I guess you could say its all WF's fault. Or mine. :-?

sliderule
03-05-2007, 18:43
These are the folks that spend three hours reading every line of the Trail register and get very offended if you ask to borrow the book for a minute and a half so you can sign in. Very annoying.

Then there are folks who refuse to sign the register.

How does that make you feel?

Jack Tarlin
03-05-2007, 19:03
That's their business. A lot of folks don't sign in, or don't always sign in. And some folks, especially women, don't necessarily want to advertise where they are on the Trail, when they were there, and where they're likely to be staying that night or where they can be found the following day.

If folks don't wanna sign the log books, that's entirely up to them, and it shouldn't be anyone else's business.

bfitz
03-05-2007, 19:04
That's their business. A lot of folks don't sign in, or don't always sign in. And some folks, especially women, don't necessarily want to advertise where they are on the Trail, when they were there, and where they're likely to be staying that night or where they can be found the following day......
Don't forget the fugitives from the law.

sliderule
03-05-2007, 19:48
There is an aspect of shelter registers that seems to violate the spirit of LNT.

It's one thing to record information that other hikers might find helpful. But a number of hikers apparently feel the need to leave a record of their every thought, feeling and emotion. So it sometimes seems that the self-centered ramblings that they leave behind are not unlike a banana peel thrown in the fireplace or a candy bar wrapper dropped along the footpath.

bfitz
03-05-2007, 19:51
There's an aspect of shelters that seem to violate LNT, namely the fact that they exist. LNT is a tiny bit absurd anyhow...not that I don't get it, before you flame me...

rafe
03-05-2007, 19:53
There is an aspect of shelter registers that seems to violate the spirit of LNT.

It's one thing to record information that other hikers might find helpful. But a number of hikers apparently feel the need to leave a record of their every thought, feeling and emotion. So it sometimes seems that the self-centered ramblings that they leave behind are not unlike a banana peel thrown in the fireplace or a candy bar wrapper dropped along the footpath.

Wow. First time I've heard that objection. But seriously, nobody's forcing you to read any of it. I suppose now we need to ask for Jack Tarlin's Ten Rules of Register Entry Etiquette... :rolleyes: Proper number of words, not too depressing, not too optimistic, proper penmanship, spelling, ink color, etc.

The Weasel
03-05-2007, 20:17
Safeguarding as in safeguarding 13 and 14 year old girls like my church teen group who are entrusted to me by their parents. Having them sleep side by side in a shelter next to strange men is not something they would want me to do. And it is my responsibility to plan for their safety - ie - carrying a tent and not relying on shelter use. This is not to say male hikers are not gentlemen (I've slept in shelters with guys who were, btw. God love 'em! BUT I've also been in shelters with guys smoking pot, which doesn't quite make one's neurons function normally after drug use). However, I don't plan to take that chance, esp with young girls and strangers you know absolutely nothing about, side by side, in a shelter. Safeguarding as to be prudent and to plan accordingly for their safety and security as their parents (and I) would wish - like making sure they carry the tents they need so we don't rely on the shelter system but can camp elsewhere.

Blissful has the same problem that Scout leaders have: We have kids in our care that have parents who are worried, in some cases, and need to be assured their children are safe. We also have young people who do not always understand things that are happening in places like shelters, and can misconstrue things, to the risk of all concerned. Scouting has a mandatory program called "Youth Protection Training," and emphasizes that it is not merely to protect children - the most important goal - but to protect adults from misunderstandings that can arise. If I were taking a youth group - Scout or otherwise - I might want them to enjoy some of the aspects of 'shelter life', but if there were others in the shelter - male OR female - I would set up tents a little way off every time.

The Weasel

The Weasel
03-05-2007, 20:19
Wow. First time I've heard that objection. But seriously, nobody's forcing you to read any of it. I suppose now we need to ask for Jack Tarlin's Ten Rules of Register Entry Etiquette... :rolleyes: Proper number of words, not too depressing, not too optimistic, proper penmanship, spelling, ink color, etc.

Well, if Jack feels compelled...but they won't be anyone else's rules.

Shelter registers are like shelters. People can use them any way they want as long as it's not destructive. To me, they are one of the best parts of life on the AT.

The Weasel

saimyoji
03-05-2007, 20:41
Well, if Jack feels compelled...but they won't be anyone else's rules.

Shelter registers are like shelters. People can use them any way they want as long as it's not destructive. To me, they are one of the best parts of life on the AT.

The Weasel


Yeah....perhaps the register etiquette rules should start with...

1. Don't remove register pages.

:-? ;)

sliderule
03-05-2007, 20:57
Yeah....perhaps the register etiquette rules should start with...

1. Don't remove register pages.

:-? ;)
That brings up some interesting questions. Who is the legal owner of a shelter register? If a person regards the register as litter, can he not dispose of it? Or some portion of it, as he sees fit?

rafe
03-05-2007, 21:21
That brings up some interesting questions. Who is the legal owner of a shelter register?

I've occasionally wondered that myself. Not that it matters much, one way or another. Some registers have a note somewhere saying, "When finished, please return this register to so-and-so." I think it's pretty loose. I do know that registers in the AMC huts are kept for years and years. On my last section hike, the shabbiest shelter was an AMC shelter... and it had a snazzy, brand-new, hardbound register. ;)

ed bell
03-05-2007, 21:41
The shelter register talk caused me to wonder this: how many years until shelters will have real time electronic registers?

Programbo
03-05-2007, 22:00
Then there are folks who refuse to sign the register.

Register?..I never signed no stinkin registers!...Just teasing...But I never did sign them..I was sort of a loner in my youth and associated only loosely with those I did meet on the trail so I didn`t really care who was there and where they were going and figured no one needed to know if I had been there or where I was going

weary
03-05-2007, 22:58
I've recently read on Trailplace.com about a certain hiker who arrived at a shelter on a rainy nite. As he entered, the occupants: a family of uncertain religious persuasion, informed said hiker they did not want him to stay due to their values. Said hiker said (basically) "Nuts to you, I'm staying. I'll also be changing my clothes (getting naked in front of them all?)." The family was so upset by this hikers defiant innability to compromise (stay clothed/conceiled) that, after prolonged pleading, they fled into the rainy night.

My question: WTHeck? Shouldn't we expect/show more civility to the various people we encounter on the trail? If someone has a personal request (IE "please don't show your nakedness to my small children," "please don't hang your nasty dirty laundry above where I'm sleeping," etc.) is it unreasonable to try to "go along to get along" while sharing a shelter? If I'm hiking with my daughter, I would not tolerate random nudity around shelters, nor would I tolerate people imposing their values on me. Why would this 'HIKER' force this family to leave due to his inability to be a little understanding/compassionate and cover up?

Am I misguided in my ideas of the use of shelters? There is also some talk on that thread of SOBOs not being allowed to use some shelters, only NOBOs. ???
It depends on the circumstances. I arrived at the first shelter north of Springer, shivering in a cold rain. I gently suggested I needed to change my clothes, when nobody offered to accomodate, I went around back, and changed in the rain.

But I was a trail newby. If such a thing happened today, I would simply announce for all to hear that I was about to change my clothes and people could do whatever they thought appropriate.

Weary

saimyoji
03-06-2007, 00:10
I've recently read on Trailplace.com about...blah blah blah...


I wrote this over two years ago...have since re-developed my ideas about using shelters. Thanks for the input all, I appreciate it. :D

(never thought this thread would be resurrected and take the direction it seems to have.....:o)

bfitz
03-06-2007, 01:44
The only rule for register entries ought to be if you are going to write an obscenity it better be damned funny.

Lone Wolf
03-06-2007, 10:20
Yeah....perhaps the register etiquette rules should start with...

1. Don't remove register pages.

:-? ;)

...still waiting for that page to be posted.

Fannypack
03-06-2007, 12:08
...still waiting for that page to be posted.
"by askin' u r callin' me`a liar"..... hah hah hah

LW, maybe he`can bring it when he comes south and u can scan it for him...

DawnTreader
03-06-2007, 15:10
Shelter Ettiquete....
I hope nobody decides to adopt a list of rules to be posted on shelter walls, ala the "how to be a good house guest" thread. The fact of the matter is, unless there is a caretaker to tell people they can't put a tent in a shelter, then it must be that putting up said tent isn't breaking any rules. If said tent isn't taking up the space of 2 people, ... think MSR huba without the rain fly, then I don't care, nor should anyone else.

bfitz
03-06-2007, 15:27
Shelter Ettiquete....
I hope nobody decides to adopt a list of rules to be posted on shelter walls, ala the "how to be a good house guest" thread. The fact of the matter is, unless there is a caretaker to tell people they can't put a tent in a shelter, then it must be that putting up said tent isn't breaking any rules. If said tent isn't taking up the space of 2 people, ... think MSR huba without the rain fly, then I don't care, nor should anyone else.Unless they do something dicourteous like fail to take it down when someone arrives to claim that space. Otherwise, No harm= no foul. Pure and simple. Silly argument. It's wrong to just assume people are incapable of knowing how to behave. No matter how many jerks before me have failed to be courteous it is an insult to assume I will fail to be courteous. You MUST wait until I have failed to correct me. Preemptive correction is the worst kind of impoliteness. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth of anyone who experiences it.

Footslogger
03-06-2007, 15:37
[quote=DawnTreader;334226]Shelter Ettiquete....
I hope nobody decides to adopt a list of rules to be posted on shelter walls
================================

Yeah ...that could be dangerous. Cause in 2003 someone was going through all the shelters and writing "SMOKE WEED" with a huge black marking pen.

'Slogger

bfitz
03-06-2007, 15:42
[quote=DawnTreader;334226]Shelter Ettiquete....
I hope nobody decides to adopt a list of rules to be posted on shelter walls
================================

Yeah ...that could be dangerous. Cause in 2003 someone was going through all the shelters and writing "SMOKE WEED" with a huge black marking pen.

'Slogger
His name is legion. I have seen that all over the country.

Jack Tarlin
03-06-2007, 16:52
Dawn Treader:

I agree with you....I also don't want to see a list of etiquette rules posted in shelters.

But in re. to the "How to be a Good House Guest" thread, what specifically in that thread do you object to, and what in that thread did you have a problem with?

Peaks
03-06-2007, 19:33
There's an aspect of shelters that seem to violate LNT, namely the fact that they exist. LNT is a tiny bit absurd anyhow...not that I don't get it, before you flame me...

No, one of the options of LNT is to concentrate the impact. It's sometimes better to limit and control impact to a concentrated area rather than spread out the impact over a larger area or section of trail.

The same concept applies to "hardening" the footpath. Better that than herd paths all over the place.

Jester2000
03-06-2007, 19:43
Jester's Shelter Etiquette Rules
(to be posted in every shelter on the AT)

1) Upon arriving at a shelter, ask politely if there is room in the shelter. When the person inside informs you that you are at the privy, excuse yourself and find the shelter. Then firmly plant your flag and announce, "I hereby claim this shelter for Spain!"

2) If you need to change your clothes in the shelter, announce that you are about to do so. This allows some to avert their eyes, and others to charge up the flashes on their cameras. Inviting others to get naked with you is considered polite and classy.

3) All softball played inside the shelter must be slow pitch only.

4) If you absolutely must ingest illegal drugs, do so while wearing a full indian war bonnet, and claim that it is for sacramental purposes only.

5)Walking on the sleeping deck in boots is only permitted if said boots have clear heels filled with goldfish.

6)Only one tuba solo per evening.

7)Building a fire inside the shelter is only permitted if
a)it is very cold
b)the fuel is all deadfall
c)you are as stupid and insane as a syphilitic donkey

8) No couscous.

9) Nine PM is considered hiker midnight. After this time, the only songs that can be sung aloud are "The Humpty Dance," "Baby Got Back," and "Desperado." (New Jersey only)

10) If you insist on bringing him with you, you must be understanding of the fact that sooner or later someone is going to try to eat your dog.

Skidsteer
03-06-2007, 19:46
Roflmao...:D

Topcat
03-06-2007, 20:31
Jester, I would say you earned your name tonight...

jlb2012
03-06-2007, 20:49
Question for the shelter etiquette gurus - what is the proper thing to say after letting out a loud fart :

1. first base!
2. is there an echo in here?
3. your turn.
4. dang near schart myself there.
5. are you done eating?
6. anyone got a match?
7. say nothing but have a big grin.
8. which way is the privy?
9. I think my hemorrhoids are still a-flapping from that one.
10. hum I think I'll give that one a 9.4 score.