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The Cleaner
12-03-2010, 07:21
I'm heading out to Sampson Mtn Wildderness to work on some storm damage with a CHAINSAW:eek:.I know that USFS regulations prohibit the use of any kind motorized equipment in wilderness areas.I'll only be working a few hours and in over 15 years I've never met anyone in there.My question is this"If no one hears my chainsaw,what's the harm?"I expect hikers won't miss crawling under blowdowns,so any objections or comments?

Lone Wolf
12-03-2010, 07:29
why even post this? shoulda just done it, now you're gonna catch all kinds of flak from the do-gooders

The Cleaner
12-03-2010, 07:42
why even post this? shoulda just done it, now you're gonna catch all kinds of flak from the do-gooders
Woops:eek:I'd say you're about right as long as none of them are from the local United States Attorney's office I can handle a few naysayers....

TOW
12-03-2010, 07:42
I agree with LW on this one. I learned a while back if you are going to do something along the trail that needs to be done because the local club has not gotten to it then just do it. Just make sure you do not reroute the trail in any way.

couscous
12-03-2010, 08:03
Clearing blowdowns encourages hikers to stay on the trail (durable surface) and shows consideration for others.. both LNT principles.
~~
Plan Ahead and Prepare | Travel and Camp on Durable Surfaces | Dispose of Waste Properly | Leave What You Find | Minimize Campfire Impacts | Respect Wildlife | Be Considerate of Other Visitors

daddytwosticks
12-03-2010, 08:22
Comments? Thank you. :)

Tennessee Viking
12-03-2010, 09:48
Cleaner,
Don't do it. Its a hefty fine for motorized equipment in a wilderness area. And another fine for cutting any standing trees on federal lands without approval or permit. Even my AT club is forbidden to use chainsaws in wilderness areas.

What areas are in-need of clearing anyway? Clarks Creek or Horse Creek areas, or the AT above the Sampson Wilderness?

"Hipneck" (I think he is USFS) was organizing a open-to-the-public maintenance outing with the Forest Service and Southern Appalachian Wilderness Stewards back around Thanksgiving. If it was a good outing, they should have already cleared the trails from Horse Creek into the Sampson Wilderness areas (Squibb Creek area).

If anything, report the damage to the Greeneville USFS office. Or request permission to volunteer to maintain trails in the area.

Speer Carrier
12-03-2010, 10:40
I've cleared a lot of storm damage blow downs on my section which is in a wilderness area. I use my one man cross cut saw. Admittedly, it's a pain in the butt compared to using a chain saw, but so far I've decided to follow the rules. I'll concede that a lot of the rules the forest service has, strain common sense, but, I'm living with it.

If you are a member of a maintaining club, and your speaking of the section you oversee, I guess I'd recommend discussing it with your district leader or trail supervisor before violating the rules.

If you are just planning on doing it one your own, I'd recommend just contacting the maintaining club and leaving it up to them. It's their responsibility.

DLANOIE
12-03-2010, 10:47
Back in 2006 during my SOBO thru, I came across a man who was using a chainsaw to clear blowdowns somewhere in the 100 mile wilderness. I could hear him from quite a ways out. When I met up with him, I thanked him for his sevice. I was not aware that you cant use a chainsaw to clear blowdowns...what a stupid rule!

4eyedbuzzard
12-03-2010, 10:53
Back in 2006 during my SOBO thru, I came across a man who was using a chainsaw to clear blowdowns somewhere in the 100 mile wilderness. I could hear him from quite a ways out. When I met up with him, I thanked him for his sevice. I was not aware that you cant use a chainsaw to clear blowdowns...what a stupid rule!
The "no motorized equipment" rule only applies to "designated wilderness areas". Even then, the local authority / manager can allow motorized equipment for special puposes, especially firefighting, S&R, etc. I'd imagine a big blowdown might be allowed to be cleared using chainsaw if it was the only way and it could be seen as a safety issue. They do look to not bend the rules as much as possible though.

Speer Carrier
12-03-2010, 11:31
The "no motorized equipment" rule only applies to "designated wilderness areas". Even then, the local authority / manager can allow motorized equipment for special puposes, especially firefighting, S&R, etc. I'd imagine a big blowdown might be allowed to be cleared using chainsaw if it was the only way and it could be seen as a safety issue. They do look to not bend the rules as much as possible though.

I wouldn't count on any dispensation. I believe here in Georgia, the last time the forest service allowed chain saws in the wilderness areas was after Hurricane Opal came through. A few years back, we had over two hundred blow downs to contend with after a storm and got no permission to use chain saws.

I would say that the current thinking in the forest service in the Chattahoochee forest at any rate, is to go even further with restrictions. The privy at Low Gap Shelter has no roof because it's in a wilderness area. When asked why, when the shelter has a roof, we were told that the shelter was grandfathered in. But, if the shelter was ever destroyed, it would not even be allowed to be rebuilt. I think that they like the idea that if the trail gets more unfriendly, there will be fewer hikers to contend with.

walkin' wally
12-03-2010, 11:32
The "no motorized equipment" rule only applies to "designated wilderness areas". Even then, the local authority / manager can allow motorized equipment for special puposes, especially firefighting, S&R, etc. I'd imagine a big blowdown might be allowed to be cleared using chainsaw if it was the only way and it could be seen as a safety issue. They do look to not bend the rules as much as possible though.

When I was maintaining a section at Rainbow Lake the Maine ATC had to get sort of a waiver from The Nature Conservancy when they bought a huge tract in that area. They were good about letting us continue to use chaisaws. I wondered if the " no motorized equipment " rule included chainsaws for trail clearing to begin with. I was thinking it was intended more for boats, ATV's, cars, trucks, dirt bikes etc. I would have hated to clear that section with an axe or bucksaw. I never felled any trees. I had enough laying on the ground :D

Cabin Fever
12-03-2010, 14:40
When I was maintaining a section at Rainbow Lake the Maine ATC had to get sort of a waiver from The Nature Conservancy when they bought a huge tract in that area. They were good about letting us continue to use chaisaws. I wondered if the " no motorized equipment " rule included chainsaws for trail clearing to begin with. I was thinking it was intended more for boats, ATV's, cars, trucks, dirt bikes etc. I would have hated to clear that section with an axe or bucksaw. I never felled any trees. I had enough laying on the ground :D

One of the areas that Tennessee Viking mentioned was the section I used to maintain which is Pond Mountain, TN (between Kincora and Watauga Lake). It was wilderness and I had to haul cross cut over the beast several times year. I am all for wilderness areas, but I wish they would make an exception for trail maintenance.

fehchet
12-03-2010, 16:44
Pond Mountain is a PUD but the trail is a trail. Just my opinion.

Digger'02
12-03-2010, 17:45
ok, I am also going to say Dont Do it. the agreements that the clubs/ATC/USFS are important and each time someone willingly breaks these rules they weaken the agreement.

How bad is the blowdown? Is a tangled mess and that is why you want to use a chainsaw instead of a cross-cut?

I understand that Chainsaws are easier and faster and for folks who do a lot of cutting they are a better tool.

I would call the Southern Virginia region of the ATC and talk to Joe, he is a cross cutter and if this is a really bad one, he can help by cutting it or riding the club to get it done.

I enjoy the cross cut, we are some of the few people in the world who still have a good reason to use one. The A.T. was never supposed to be easy, to hike, to build, to maintain. A smarter man than I (Bob Peoples) daid the only thing it ever promised was Blood, Toil, Sweat and tears. Be proud of that toil, and of the quiet and traditional way you are keeping the trail clear.

Tennessee Viking
12-03-2010, 17:53
One of the areas that Tennessee Viking mentioned was the section I used to maintain which is Pond Mountain, TN (between Kincora and Watauga Lake). It was wilderness and I had to haul cross cut over the beast several times year. I am all for wilderness areas, but I wish they would make an exception for trail maintenance.

Now you have the BMT and the Frogs to attend to now.

Cabin Fever
12-03-2010, 18:12
Pond Mountain is a PUD but the trail is a trail. Just my opinion.

This is the type of comment that non-trail maintainers make. They don't know the situation. Take out a map and look to see where the public land meets private land. That will squelch your opinion about the location of the trail.

Lugnut
12-03-2010, 18:25
Hard Core did a significant relo there this past May that helped a lot.

The Cleaner
12-03-2010, 18:49
:eek:It's done,somebody call the law..see the pics in my gallery..

The Cleaner
12-03-2010, 19:32
Can't get the pics to load..anyway I know the local USFS District Ranger,Terry Bowerman,from past contract work...:sun

The Cleaner
12-03-2010, 19:49
Can't get the pics to load..anyway I know the local USFS District Ranger,Terry Bowerman,from past contract work...:sun
Pics uploaded...:eek:

10-K
12-03-2010, 23:13
Pics uploaded...:eek:

Pretty impressive, should make it easier to get through there. I'm sure I'll be thanking you. :)

The Cleaner
12-03-2010, 23:29
Pretty impressive, should make it easier to get through there. I'm sure I'll be thanking you. :)
It was worse than I thought,some places you had a hard time just getting yourself through .Crawling w/full pack is no fun...

10-K
12-04-2010, 00:04
It was worse than I thought,some places you had a hard time just getting yourself through .Crawling w/full pack is no fun...

I got the waypoints for Rocky Fork off gpstracklog.com. Hopefully I can get them on my Garmin and between that and the topos we should be able to get good and lost. :)

The Cleaner
12-04-2010, 00:29
I got the waypoints for Rocky Fork off gpstracklog.com. Hopefully I can get them on my Garmin and between that and the topos we should be able to get good and lost. :)
Great,then we can use our heads+legs to get out!:-?

ATsawyer
12-04-2010, 09:18
I won't argue the politics of chainsaws in the backcountry, but that sounded like a long way to carry a chainsaw for a few blowdowns. I cut most of the BDs I encounter with a crosscut saw or use an axe if it a pine. I seldom spend more than 3-4 minutes actually sawing. Most of my time is spent "gettin' in and gettin' out". If you can't cut through a blowdown in a couple minutes with a crosscut saw, you need to get it filed.

As previously stated though, most if not virtually all hikers will thank you for clearing BDs from the trail no matter how you do it.

The Cleaner
12-04-2010, 10:40
I won't argue the politics of chainsaws in the backcountry, but that sounded like a long way to carry a chainsaw for a few blowdowns. I cut most of the BDs I encounter with a crosscut saw or use an axe if it a pine. I seldom spend more than 3-4 minutes actually sawing. Most of my time is spent "gettin' in and gettin' out". If you can't cut through a blowdown in a couple minutes with a crosscut saw, you need to get it filed.

As previously stated though, most if not virtually all hikers will thank you for clearing BDs from the trail no matter how you do it.
Just how long the trail is no one really knows,it is in some guidebooks but part of the trail is also part of the Rocky Fork purchase.I'm thinking it's between 3.5to 5 miles long.From the top at it's intersection w/ AT it takes about 3 hours to walk down.Going up takes a little longer.There were many ,15-20 8 to 12+inch blowdowns.Also there were many low hanging limbs and other growth making hiking w/pack difficult.So the chainsaw made for quicker removal .Since I was working alone there was no way Icould use hand tools to get things done.As per earlier post some work had been done on the first mile ONLY.I started up at 9am and cutting as I went I reached the end of the blowdown area(2miles from the top?) at 2pm.Then I did a little more work on the way down(limited chainsaw fuel) and got to the parking lot at 4pm,very tired.Some of these blowdowns have been there many years.Now you can hike all the way to the top w/o climbing over,under and around a bunch of crap thus making for an enjoyable hike instead of an obstacle course.:sun

ATsawyer
12-04-2010, 12:55
That IS where a chainsaw pays for itself. I've cleared ice storm and hurricane damage where the BDs were so numerous that I only stopped my saw to refuel. But then I had swampers to clean away what I cut up and carry some of my gear, which allowed me to keep moving.

That's tricky work though, as all the BDs are fresh and full of twists and tensions. Cutting open a trail full of old deadfalls should find most of those tensions relaxed and less active. But then you can pinch a bar on most any cut if you're not watching your kerf.