My winter gear list for NH for dec-jan [Archive]

lemon73

12-06-2010, 22:37

Hi all. I'm planning to do a new section of the AT in NH during my Christmas break from (15 days). This is my gear list so far. I settled for a synthetic sleeping bag because of the duration of the trip to prevent humidity issues. I decided to go with a 2 person 4 season tent. The problem is that they are really heavy. They still can be returned to the store. Do you think of any alternative (suitable for the Whites Mountains) with express shipping to Canada!!

I'm also open to general comments about my gear choices and what is missing or to cut (ice axe? shovel? Crampons?). Thanks!
Sleeping :

Tent : MEC TGV 1 5.95lb 2,700.00g
Winter stakes : MSR (4) 4
Sleeping bag : Mountain Hardwear Lamina -30° 1 5.00lb 14.00oz 2,650.00g
Compression bag 25L waterproof 1 3.00lb 8.00oz 107.00g
Sleeping pad : Exped 7 Downmat -26°C 1 2.00lb 2.00oz 998.00g

Cooking :
MSR WhisperLite stove 1 1.00lb 11.00oz 305.00g
Windscreen 1 2.00oz 57.00g
Cooking pot MSR, Quick 1 Pot set (titanium) 1 6.60oz 187.50g
Spork : MSR 1
mug/bowl silicone Coghlan's 1
Nalgene 32 oz 2 0.66lb 299.36g
Fuel bottle (995ml) (1) 1
Second fuel bottle
silnylon Food bag : OR (1) 1
Food bag rope Coghlan's (???) 1
Pristine (water treatment) 1

Cargo:
Backpack Osprey Aether 70 (stripped) 1 4.00lb 9.00oz 2,070.00g
Raincover : MEC 70l 1
Bottle parka : OR (1) 1
Bungee cord to attach snowshoes 1

Transportation:
Snowshoes : MSR Evo Ascent, with addons 16" 2 4.00lbs 12.00oz 2,166.00g
Hiking poles : Leki SuperMakalu 2
Snowflakes (where are they??) 2

Clothing :
Compression bag waterproof 18l Blue (clean clothes) 1 3.00oz 96.00g
Compression bag waterproof 18l (3.4 oz / 96 g) : Green (dirty clothes) 1 3.00 oz 96.00g

Shell :
Coat : The North Face, Gore-tex XCR 1
bibs : The North Face, Gore-tex XCR 1

Isolation
Down coat : North face duvet 700
Down camp boots : MEC

Underwear
Bamboo Boxers 3
Long johns (synth) 1
T-shirts (synth) 2

Top
T-shirt long sleeves (zip neck) 2
Polar 100 long sleeves zip neck : TNF 1
Polar 200 vest : TNF 1

Low
Polar 100 pants 1
Stretch pants (isolated) : Mountain Hardwear 1
Gaiters : Mountain Hardwear Gore-Tex 1
Belt : Pantagonia 1

feet
Boots : The North Face 1
Hiking socks (smartwool) 3
Gore-tex oversocks 1

Hands
Liner gloves 3
Polar 100 gloves 1
Gore-Tex Modular mits (inside polar 200) 1
Other modular mits

Head
Polar cap : OR 1
Polar 100 WS Gorilla Balaclava: OR 1
Ski Goggles : Oakley 1

Equipment
Leatherman tool 1.00
Head Lamp : Tika 2 Petzl 23.00g
Batteries lithium AAA (lamp) 6
Radio : Garmin 1
Batteries lithium AAA (radio) 2
Headphones 1
Lighter 2
Fire maker magnesium : Coghlan's 1
GPS satellite emergecy device (SPOT) 1 5.20oz
IPhone 1
Ziploc (lrg and med) 12
Safety blanket (Coghlan's) 1
Camera (Canon Coolpix) 1

Health
Meds
- Naproxen 24
- Advil 24
- Ventolin 1
- Advair 1
- Cortaid 1
- Polysporin 1
Band-aid
- Tape 1
- knuckles 5
- Sponges 5
Toothbrush 1
Toothpaste 1
Dentalfloos 1
CampSuds 1
Toilet paper 1
Wet-Ones 1
Small pack towel 1
Small bottle of Purell 2

Documents
Passport
Travel insurance papers and card
MC
VISA
Debit
Free universal single payer Quebec health insurance card
Driving licence

lemon73

12-06-2010, 23:46

Replying to myself here.

I want to add that in the summer/fall I used alot of utltralight material and I carry a very small load. Also I'm quite used to winter hike in the Whites. However sleeping many nights in the winter is another matter entirely. it seem I can't get around to go light in this context. I have considered going for a Tarp and digging snow caves or trench... But I'm worried that my sleeping bag might get wet. I'm looking for some input on the matter of winter multiday hikes. (and sorry for the health insurance joke :) )

Wolf - 23000

12-07-2010, 03:07

Lemon73,
Were to begin? First Wet-one 1, CampSuds, Purell etc will be ice in about an hour. It is not worth carrying.
Leave the compression sacks behind. Instead get a bigger backpack. I travel extremely UL during the summer too but in the extreme winter you have to look at how can you pack up your equipment and get moving as fast as possible. The last thing you want to deal with is packing up your equipment in a tight bag/pack when it is sub-zero out.
As snow falls down on top of you, it will freezes on your clothing including on top of gore-tex. The result is you are walking around like one sheet of iceman. I suggest leave the pack cover behind and get a poncho instead. It will help to keep you warmer and two keep won't freeze.
Your water treatment is going to be an ice bottle and unnecessary. The only source of water you are going to have is melting snow/ice. Your stove is going to be doing your water treatment all by itself.
Hopes this at least get you started in the right direction.
Wolf

4eyedbuzzard

12-07-2010, 08:52

Microspikes or similar and crampons (as conditions dictate)

Matches (I wouldn't trust disposable lighters as my only source of ignition in winter)

Maps / Compass (even if carrying GPS)

Extra batteries / back up light - you'll only have 7 - 9 hours of usable daylight depending upon weather conditions, trees, terrain.

I'm sure there is more I'm forgetting.

lemon73

12-07-2010, 09:14

Wet-one 1, CampSuds, Purell etc will be ice in about an hour.

Yes, but what if I use alcohol based products? I didn't think they could freeze. CampSuds, yes... not a good idea.

Leave the compression sacks behind. Instead get a bigger backpack. I travel extremely UL during the summer too but in the extreme winter you have to look at how can you pack up your equipment and get moving as fast as possible. The last thing you want to deal with is packing up your equipment in a tight bag/pack when it is sub-zero out.

Interesting! I have a 110l Backpack too but its around 9 pounds! And yes It is a lot of work to put my sleeping bag in the compression bag... I will make some test next week-end camping.

As snow falls down on top of you, it will freezes on your clothing including on top of gore-tex. The result is you are walking around like one sheet of iceman. I suggest leave the pack cover behind and get a poncho instead. It will help to keep you warmer and two keep won't freeze.

I always walk with a minimum of clothing in the winter to prevent sweat from getting me wet. Usually my sweat fall in frost on top of my clothes. When I stop I let myself dry a while before putting extra layers to keep warm. I never turned into an iceman before :eek: from snow. however, rain is a big concern... In big rain, I plan on stopping and wait it out in my tent.

Your water treatment is going to be an ice bottle and unnecessary.

I will have to research that. But you might be right.

The only source of water you are going to have is melting snow/ice. Your stove is going to be doing your water treatment all by itself.

I know. It's a big concern for me to get enough water for the day. I suffered for dehydration during the Maine section of the AT I did this summer, with dire consequences. The more snow I will have to melt the more fuel I have to carry... Not the mention the load of water for the entire day... Unless I melt snow during the day...

Hopes this at least get you started in the right direction.
Wolf

Yes it does thanks you so much! There is so much to plan. Summer hiking is just a walk in the park compared to this...

lemon73

12-07-2010, 09:28

Microspikes or similar and crampons (as conditions dictate)

I plan on relying on the crampons of my MSR snowshoes. I know it it not perfect however, I'm desperate to cut weight! Do you think I'm being foolish?

Matches (I wouldn't trust disposable lighters as my only source of ignition in winter) That is true, thats why I plan on brining a magnesium fire-starting tool. However is there any good waterproof matches you recommends?

Maps / Compass (even if carrying GPS) Always. Sorry its not on my list. I don't like GPS. The GPS device in the list is a SPOT to tell my friend and family I'm OK once a day or call for help in case of emergency.

Extra batteries / back up light - you'll only have 7 - 9 hours of usable daylight depending upon weather conditions, trees, terrain. Do you have opinion about lithium batteries? My lamp needs 3 batteries and I plan on bringing 3 extra. I plan on buying more along the way always having 3 extra.

Thank for the input. It is very appreciated. The resources on the web are scarce and sometime outdated. They focus on beginner camping and not on light hiking.

Regards

canoehead

12-07-2010, 13:13

You didn't mention the area you'll be in so this is what I would consider, also are you going alone? DON'T underestimate the difficulty and seriousness of this undertaking.
I would add More fuel your not going to find water that easily you'll be melting it and that consumes lots of fuel.
I would add ice axe & crampons your snow shoes won't cut it on the steep stuff and will dull out after a while. (I have the same MSR, bring both)
Map & compass because batteries die off quick in the cold. Remember if your above tree line it's harder to follow the white blazes painted on the ground, sometimes you can't see the cairns because of the clouds . and in the trees it can be difficult to see blazes on snow covered trees.
I would re-treat my outer shells just before leaving on your trip.
Balaclava: I would take a neoprene one these windproof ones don't cut it in severe winds and tend to freeze up.
More batteries and hand warmers.

LIhikers

12-07-2010, 13:19

Are you planning to carry food for the whole 15 days all at once?
That in itself is going to be quite a load.

Slo-go'en

12-07-2010, 14:24

Wolf 2300 apparently has never been above tree line in the Whites during the winter when the absolute air temps are sub zero, the wind is gusting to 50 mph or more and the snow is blowing. A poncho in those conditions would be beyond useless, even dangerous. A full Gortex suit is the only way to go.

lemon73, your gear list looks pretty good to me, though I would add a neoprene face mask. I have a neoprene Balaclava, but I find the face mask much more useful.

I don't think I saw gaters on the list, you definately need a good pair of winter gaters. I use a pair made by OR that have velcro up the front, so don't have to worry about zippers freezing up or dealing with a zipper with mittens on in sub zero temps.

I find snow shoes less then ideal above tree line. You'll need them to get there and in some places, but for the most part, crampons are better. The snow tends to be hard wind packed mixed with rocks sticking up out of the snow. Between the slope of the packed snow and the outcrops of rocks, using snow shoes becomes a pain. I perfer 8 point crampons, 4 front, 4 back with nothing in the middle section. This allows you to step on rocks and not get tripped up the way 10 or 12 point crampons would. And get real crampons, none of these cheap microspike things.

Ice axe is debatable. It can be handy, just for getting to water. Hopefully you'll never be in a situation where you'll need it for self arrest. There are places where you could potentually take a long slide and then fall off a cliff, but thankfully there are not too many of them.

Finding running water isn't that hard to do, though you might have to dig for it and/or chop through ice to get at it. Be sure to have an insulating sleeve for the Nalgine bottle(s). I wouldn't worry about treating it, our water is really good. In fact the water I drink at home here comes right out of a stream up the hill behind me.

Its starting to shape up to be a real winter around here. Good chance there will be pleanty of snow with pretty cold temps for the Christmas/New Years holiday season.

Personally, I would not attempt a long traverse hike in NH during the winter. Just too much work and too much chance of something going wrong. A better plan might be to base camp and do peak bagging instead, with the occasional high altitude overnight if needed. Although not offically open, I belive you can camp at Lincon camp ground in Franconia notch (state run) and at Dolly Cop (NFS) near Gorham during the winter. I know I've slept on picnic tables in the winter at Dolly Cop when I used to have to travel to hike up here.

The Solemates

12-07-2010, 14:33

Wolf 2300 apparently has never been above tree line in the Whites during the winter

thats funny

lemon73

12-07-2010, 19:15

Are you planning to carry food for the whole 15 days all at once?
That in itself is going to be quite a load.

No. I plan on resupplying regularly. I have yet to determine the exact section of the AT I will do. I made the error of starting a section of the AT with 6 days of food and I will not make this mistake again. I prefer to start with a few days, go in town for resupply for a night and see from there. Considering all that can go wrong I don't plan on making more than 2-3 nights before resupplying.

lemon73

12-07-2010, 19:35

You didn't mention the area you'll be in so this is what I would consider, also are you going alone? DON'T underestimate the difficulty and seriousness of this undertaking.

Yes I will go alone. Nobody is crazy enough to come with me. Maybe there will be some other crazy hikers on the trail? I doubt it.

I try to see all that can go wrong with this endeavour. However, the only things that are different from my usual winter hikes in the Whites is the load and the sleeping part. However this is what I consider the most problematic aspects :

- Staying dry : I will have to be really careful about that. I have to bring only the clothes that I can dry myself on the trail. Either by putting them in my coat to evaporate the moisture with my own heat of buy putting them in my sleeping bag at night with hot water nalgene bottles. Anything that will be used and that will stay wet and cold after use is dead weight.

- Exhaustion : I will have to respect my limits and know the signs of exhaustion. On this point one of the advantages of winter is that you can set-up your tent almost anywhere and rest for the rest of the day. I will have to carry sufficient food to sustain the effort I will have to make especially if I encounter heavy snowfall or extreme cold.

- Dehydration : This one will be tough. Especially because resupplying with water will be such an hassle. Fuel will have to be calculated in accordance with the quantity of water I will expect to need.

- hypothermia : If I can stay dry, prevent exhaustion and dehydration, I don't think hypothermia will be a problem. My sleeping bag will always be there If I start to feel in trouble.

- Getting lost : Maps, compass, and carefulness could help not getting lost. Also the Whites see allot of traffic especially during the Christmas break. In 12 years I never really encountered any unbroken trails in the Whites... However, I understand that If I do less travelled parts of the AT in NH that maybe the case especially in between mountains and with the fact that I will often be the first on the trail in the morning. In case of emergency I will still have to SPOT to get help...

TheChop

12-07-2010, 19:44

Toilet paper 1

I know you're trying to save weight but I would at least take two or maybe even three sheets. You can cut up one sheet pretty good for two uses but after that I think you're putting yourself in a crappy situation.

lemon73

12-07-2010, 20:06

I would add More fuel your not going to find water that easily you'll be melting it and that consumes lots of fuel.

I will have to calculate the amount of fuel necessary. Hopefully, it wont make it impossible to carry all my load.

I would add ice axe & crampons your snow shoes won't cut it on the steep stuff and will dull out after a while. (I have the same MSR, bring both)

Okay I will bring my Charlet Moser Ecrin hiking crampons. Only 1 pound 14 oz more and they mill almost always be on my boots.

Map & compass because batteries die off quick in the cold.

I don't plan on using a GPS for orientation.

Remember if your above tree line it's harder to follow the white blazes painted on the ground, sometimes you can't see the cairns because of the clouds . and in the trees it can be difficult to see blazes on snow covered trees.

I consider that the above the tree line part will be a small (yet beautiful part of my trip). However, I know from experience that you have to be careful navigating the summits of the Presidential. Like on normal day hikes, I will have to take great care.

I would re-treat my outer shells just before leaving on your trip.

Yes! I will use TX.DIRECT Spray-on from Niwax. And I just treated all my polar fleece clothes and gloves with Polar-Proof from Nikwax. They don't feel any different to the touch or visually. I will report of the effects of this treatment after my tests this week-end. We have plenty of new snow to play in over here in Quebec!

Thanks for your help!!!

lemon73

12-07-2010, 20:09

I know you're trying to save weight but I would at least take two or maybe even three sheets. You can cut up one sheet pretty good for two uses but after that I think you're putting yourself in a crappy situation.

I maybe I will bring more... In any case don't eat any brown snow you may find on the trail ;)

canoehead

12-07-2010, 20:27

I've had many great experiences outdoors like winter & summer mountaineering.
WW canoeing & kayaking, expedition climbing / trekking. What I've learned about extreme recreation you need to respect and have knowledge of what your doing, and a realistic self awareness about yourself and the environment you're in. Leave detailed plans and try to keep to them and give them to someone who actually cares if you come back.... Oh yeah Bring goggles and sun glasses, lip balm...
Having said that. Have a safe and fun trip..

lemon73

12-07-2010, 21:37

A poncho in those conditions would be beyond useless, even dangerous. A full Gortex suit is the only way to go.

Above treeline I concur!

[...] I would add a neoprene face mask. I have a neoprene Balaclava, but I find the face mask much more useful.

You are the second person here that want my beloved Gorilla Balacalava gone... I have a neoprene face mask somewhere... However with my HUGE head and jaw they usually don't fit well. Gorilla has seen a lot of above the tree line White Mountain action... Maybe I it is time to retire, I will see...

I don't think I saw gaters on the list

Gaters are on the list, velcro yes, huge ventilation panel on the back!
And get real crampons, none of these cheap microspike things.

I will bring my Charlet Moser Ecrin. I usually wear them when I climb Mount Washington, I just wished I could shed some weight somewhere...

Ice axe is debatable.

No axe. I don't know how to use it and I don't see myself as a glacier hiker. A friend of mine bought one and frankly after seeing him uslessly sticking it in deep snow while climbing Mount Washington, I don't feel like carrying the weight.

Finding running water isn't that hard to do, though you might have to dig for it and/or chop through ice to get at it.

I will use my poles and snowshoes to dig.

Be sure to have an insulating sleeve for the Nalgine bottle(s).

OR bottle parka, yes. I plan on brining 3 Nalgenes. I think It will gives me more flexibility with water (especially to drink during the night and having enough in the morning...)

I wouldn't worry about treating it, our water is really good. In fact the water I drink at home here comes right out of a stream up the hill behind me.

Giardia is my middle name :p.

Its starting to shape up to be a real winter around here. Good chance there will be plenty of snow with pretty cold temps for the Christmas/New Years holiday season.

YAY!!!! :banana

Personally, I would not attempt a long traverse hike in NH during the winter. Just too much work and too much chance of something going wrong.

I need to know. Is this a first? Do people do this kind of thing or is it just crazy?(BTW I don't plan to camp above tree line.) Do you know of someone that did something like this in the Whites before?

A better plan might be to base camp and do peak bagging instead, with the occasional high altitude overnight if needed. Although not officially open, I believe you can camp at Lincon camp ground in Franconia notch (state run) and at Dolly Cop (NFS) near Gorham during the winter. I know I've slept on picnic tables in the winter at Dolly Cop when I used to have to travel to hike up here.

Actually, this is not a bad idea :-?. After a few days, if I am too miserable, I may do this. Or if in the final planning, I feel like this is impossible logistically... I might then yellow blaze to Franconia Notch or Pinkham Notch.

I still have to settle on the exact stretch of the AT I want to do. Also I have to find resupply point and find a kind soul from a (closed?) hiker hostel to act as a shuttle or emergency pick-up... Now that the gear part is almost over, I will go on with the logistics.

Thank-you for your help!!! Very very much!

Slo-go'en

12-08-2010, 00:53

Personally, I would not attempt a long traverse hike in NH during the winter. Just too much work and too much chance of something going wrong.

I need to know. Is this a first? Do people do this kind of thing or is it just crazy?(BTW I don't plan to camp above tree line.) Do you know of someone that did something like this in the Whites before?

Chances are its not a first, but I know of no one who has done anything but the usual northern prezie traverse above tree line, which can be done in a day. (A really, really long day..).

Most winter hiking in NH is like what you have been doing, peak bagging. Winter accents of the 4000 footers is a popular past time and usually done as day hikes, except for one or two of the more isolated peaks, which can be an overnight trip.

As for keeping clothes dry in the long term, good luck! I would change out of my hiking shirts at night and put them in a plastic bag and then inside the sleeping bag. They will not dry out, but will at least stay warm for when you put them back on in the morning, as hard as that will be to do, especially if its 10 below out!

lemon73

12-08-2010, 01:34

As for keeping clothes dry in the long term, good luck! I would change out of my hiking shirts at night and put them in a plastic bag and then inside the sleeping bag. They will not dry out, but will at least stay warm for when you put them back on in the morning, as hard as that will be to do, especially if its 10 below out!

Good idea about the plastic bag inside the sleeping bag. That could be very useful if I encounter rain or if some clothes get really yet. However, this summer in the rain and humidity I realized that you can pretty much make any synthetic fabric (mostly) dry by wringing out the water out of it.

Of course I plan to dry my clothes by wearing them and by keeping my gloves or socks (yuk) inside my coat. This method worked for me in the past. The gore-tex will become a block of ice but that doesn't really matter. Slightly wet socks and gloves or underware will dry with the help of my body heat in the sleeping bag and with the help of one or two hot nalgene bottles.

I think I will have to be careful and monitor closely the state of my clothing to prevent myself from being stuck in the middle of nowhere with only wet clothes. If my life is in the balance, I still can make a big fire (but I know that hypothermia is a slippery slope...)

Thanks for the input. It helps my organize my thoughts about this trip.

WhoDey

12-08-2010, 01:43

A good tip for drying out your clothes is to place them is a plastic bag inside of your sleeping bag and vent the bag of clothes outside through the zipper. I have found that this works pretty well and it also keeps your bag dry

Wolf - 23000

12-08-2010, 02:07

Wolf 2300 apparently has never been above tree line in the Whites during the winter when the absolute air temps are sub zero, the wind is gusting to 50 mph or more and the snow is blowing. A poncho in those conditions would be beyond useless, even dangerous. A full Gortex suit is the only way to go.

Slo-go'en,

Would you like me to include the 300 + pictures I have winter backpacking the state of Maine. Or the nearly 200 more winter hiking the state of VT or NH most of them are not in digits but I can always scan them in. If you like I can even go as far post winter post pictures all the way down to Georgia.

lemon73 stated that he was going to winter hike NH. Well, I hate to break it to you but over half that is still below tree line. The snow weight down on the trees, brushing pass ... you end up getting a snow shower that last all day. VT was the worst but southern NH still pretty bad.

As for crampons instead of snowshoes well I carried both. There were several places that yes you need crampons but others crampons just down cut it when the snow is 4 + feet of snow.

lemon73 your alcohol based products will have floating ice crystals inside. That also goes for second skin or any kind of liqual first aid you may plan on taking.

Hiking a little bit cold with just the minimal clothing is smart but you can also do so with a poncho. It just an add piece of clothing that is not going to freeze.

"It's a big concern for me to get enough water for the day."

Yes it is. Having enough water to drink is going to be one of your biggest challenge. You are going to want to stop around lunch time to boil ice to make water. If you try to carry enough water to hike the whole day, your water in your pack is going to start freezing up.

I used several packs hiking New England. The best pack that I found was an Arc-Teryx (4,500 cb/in). I used it winter hiking Maine. It was a little $$$, but didn't freeze up like several other packs I used did.

Wolf

lemon73

12-08-2010, 08:44

Slo-go'en,

Would you like me to include the 300 + pictures I have winter backpacking the state of Maine. Or the nearly 200 more winter hiking the state of VT or NH most of them are not in digits but I can always scan them in. If you like I can even go as far post winter post pictures all the way down to Georgia.

Rain gear (snow gear) is always a question of choice especially since almost all solutions sucks in a way or another. I'm still unsure about the poncho because I am an heavy sweater and that I like to let the humidity flow away from my body. Same thing with the gore-tex clothes : I wear them in case of extreme necessities.

lemon73 stated that he was going to winter hike NH. Well, I hate to break it to you but over half that is still below tree line. The snow weight down on the trees, brushing pass ... you end up getting a snow shower that last all day. VT was the worst but southern NH still pretty bad.

True

As for crampons instead of snowshoes well I carried both.

It was snowshoes instead of crampons. I will never go without my snowshoes.

lemon73 your alcohol based products will have floating ice crystals inside. That also goes for second skin or any kind of liqual first aid you may plan on taking.

Yes. I remember the slushy water at the end of the day... However, Purell website says :13. Will Purell® instant hand sanitizer freeze?
No. But be careful in low temperatures because the bottle may become brittle and crack.

I used several packs hiking New England. The best pack that I found was an Arc-Teryx (4,500 cb/in). I used it winter hiking Maine. It was a little $$$, but didn't freeze up like several other packs I used did.

I have an Osprey Cresent 110. But the weight is starting to be extreme here... What do you think of Pulkas?

lemon73

12-08-2010, 09:04

110 liters = 6 712.61185 cubic inches

70 liters = 4 271.66209 cubic inches

Snowleopard

12-08-2010, 15:19

Slo-go'en said:
Personally, I would not attempt a long traverse hike in NH during the winter. Just too much work and too much chance of something going wrong. A better plan might be to base camp and do peak bagging instead, with the occasional high altitude overnight if needed.
It's not clear how much winter camping/mountaineering experience you have. Even the below treeline parts can be dangerous, especially alone. Unless you are very experienced, I'd recommend that you try the base camp and peak bagging at the beginning of your trip. Perhaps try moving camp short distances to test your skills and equipment in easy terrain.

Use liquid water (streams, ponds) whenever possible; it takes less fuel to boil liquid water than to melt ice/snow and then boil. Test your stove and stove skills in the cold melting ice/snow at home.

It can be hard following trails even below treeline if there's a lot of snow, and it looks like there might be a lot of snow this year (15 degrees F. below normal here this week). A GPS can be a life saver at times. Trails are cleared for summer, so with 1.5 meters of snow you'll be walking through snow covered branches. Except in popular places on weekends, you're going to be a long way from help. Your Spot may help if you get in trouble, but it might take a long time for help to arrive.

Bring extra wool hat and mitts in case your main ones get wet, lost or blown away.

Know how to repair your snowshoes.

There was a recent thread here at WB on winter tips. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1076538#post1076538 with two useful links:
http://www.wintercampers.com/
http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintcamp.shtml
Also, http://http://viewsfromthetop.com/forums/ and http://www.adkforum.net/
There may be some AMC backpacks that fit your schedule:
http://www.outdoors.org/recreation/activities/new-hampshire.cfm

khumbukat

12-09-2010, 19:34

Howdy,

Lots of great info here. A few changes i would make....

-switch fleece vest to down or nano. same weight but much warmer
-snowshoeing with bibs on would be way too hot for me
-lose soap and towel. wet wipes and bandanna.
-too much underwear
-too many stuff sacks
-need stove platform for cooking on snow.
-a small isobutane lantern w/100 grams fuel. Useful in a campfire like way. Provides light, heat, clothes dryer, companionship, ect. Dailed down to low, these put out alot of heat and light.

If you "get into" winter camping, I think you will find a way to get an expedition quality down bag. The weight and space savings is a huge benefit. Also, I have used canister stoves the last 10 or so trips. Makes cooking from tent possible, without white gas priming, spillage or flare up danger. CO danger still a big concern, so I never cook in the tent, but consider vented vestibule safe. Same goes for the lantern. Remember you have a lot of tent time and bring snacks. Enjoy.

burntoutphilosopher

12-09-2010, 22:20

I'm Late getting on this thread but i thought i'd say a few things,

as for my background, I'm not an old school experienced vet, but i am a canadian who's spent plenty of time winter camping in manitoba, and british columbia. i know 'cold' fairly well.
out trips primarily focused on shelter building, and primitive living... so this is the influence i am coming from,

here is my advice:

at some point, you get to a temperature where weight be damned you do NOT want to trust your life to a down coat. my winter hiking coat is made of rubber tubes with a cross section to keep them 'inflated' floats if gone overboard, warm when wet (repels water) doesn't really breathe... but neither will goretex at that temp once you become icicle-y.
i feel like i nearly died one night when our fire melter the snow around and seeped into my down sleeping bag (this was not in a tent, we built a lean-to from bows). unless you can keep your down dry, i would want SOMETHING synthetic backing me up. in a Tent may be much safer to sue down; see my background above.

too much stuff on here to spend an hour looking at it all as i have to work early tomorrow...i'm sure you've done your research,

just don't think it's gotta be lightweight, when we hiked Hecla island we did like 6 miles a day and were BEAT (~60 lb packs)... the idea of doing 12's or 20's is off the table IMHO.

BTW, i LOVED my exped downmat... remarkably warm. i disagree with those saying use a canister, not if it's going to be dead winter in the mountains. i use the MSR whisperlight international, and have only once had a bad uncontrollable flare up. in about 140 ounces of fuel worth of use.

lastly, i can't say enough good about my Arc Teryx Beta AR pants ... expensive retail but you can find some GREAT deals on them; like 150$ if you watch and use a coupon. i use them every day for work

goodluck, i didn't scrutinize every post; just giving another opinion, and it's just that... my opinion.

tuswm

12-10-2010, 00:07

lemon73

12-10-2010, 01:12

Slo-go'en said:
It's not clear how much winter camping/mountaineering experience you have.

Hi! I consider myself a very experienced hiker and most of my 12 years of experience are in the Whites, the Adirondacks and the Green Mountains and in Canada.

I don't have much experience in winter camping but I have much experience in winter hiking. That's why I need your input as much as I can.

Mountains that I remember climbing in the US (some up to 10 times or more) [don't read this] :

Katadhin (plus all the summits on the AT in Maine), Lincoln, Liberty, Flume, Bond, West Bond, Bond Cliff, Guyo, Zeland, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Tri-pyramid, Webster, Jackson, The Pemigawassett Wilderness, Indian Head, Hurricane, Camel hump (VT), Mansfield (VT), Bulebberry, Ampersand Mountain, Haystack Mountain, Mount Adams (NY), Noonmark Mountain, Pitchoff Mountain, Saddleback Mountain,Scarface Mountain, Bald Mountain, Bald face circle, North Twin, Garfield, Flume, Cannon, Galehead, Hopkins, Mount Marcy Algonquin Peak Mount Haystack Mount Skylight Whiteface Mountain Dix Mountain Iroquois Peak Basin Mountain, Gothics, Mount Colden, Giant Mountain, Nippletop,Wright Peak, Saddleback Mountain, Table Top Mountain,Rocky Peak Ridge, Macomb Mountain , Armstrong Mountain, Big Slide Mountain, Esther Mountain, Upper Wolfjaw Mountain Lower Wolfjaw Mountain, Phelps Mountain Sawteeth, Cascade Mountain, South Dix, Porter Mountain, Dial Mountain, East Dix, Monroe and some Volcanoes in Ecuador like the Iliniza North (16818 ft / 5126 m).

[Sorry about the list, I started to list a few and I felt like making the full list I never made before and I thought I might as well post it...]

Even the below treeline parts can be dangerous, especially alone. Unless you are very experienced, I'd recommend that you try the base camp and peak bagging at the beginning of your trip. Perhaps try moving camp short distances to test your skills and equipment in easy terrain.
Words of wisdom. I might start that way. I don't need to cover a number of specific miles. I might just do that for a few day before starting an actual section of the trail.

I may have camp 5 times in the winter. I don't remember much problems. Especially because most of time if it is extra cold it is extra dry and if it is humid, its not that cold.

Hiking the Whites in the winter as always been a challenge but always fun. The winds where terrible and the cold too. I climbed Washington countless times and Lafayette even more often... I never been so cold in my lifetime (before or since) than the first time I climbed Lafayette. The top of Washington feels like the moon and the wind keep you standing even if you try to fall froward.

I don't have any special worries about anything above the tree line (I mean the danger is always there). You have to know when to stop and turn back. I felt the winds, the snow, the rain...
Use liquid water (streams, ponds) whenever possible; it takes less fuel to boil liquid water than to melt ice/snow and then boil. Test your stove and stove skills in the cold melting ice/snow at home.
Wise. This week-end I will test my material in winter condition.

It can be hard following trails even below treeline if there's a lot of snow, and it looks like there might be a lot of snow this year (15 degrees F. below normal here this week). A GPS can be a life saver at times. Trails are cleared for summer, so with 1.5 meters of snow you'll be walking through snow covered branches. Except in popular places on weekends, you're going to be a long way from help. Your Spot may help if you get in trouble, but it might take a long time for help to arrive.
We had to turn back at Flume mountain because of too few blue blazes in the winter. The trail was impossible to find (pain in the ass that day, especially because we decided to leave the snowshoes in the car and that later the snow was terrible...) That is a problem and it is worrying... I guess a GPS can help with a map in this kind of situation. I will bring my GPS also.

Bring extra wool hat and mitts in case your main ones get wet, lost or blown away.

It's on the list. I just bought Alti mitts from OR at 50%!!!

Know how to repair your snowshoes.

I'm not sure MSR Evo Ascent are possible to fix if they break except maybe with duct tape. Maybe I could bring a MSR Snowshoe Maintenance Kit.

There was a recent thread here at WB on winter tips. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1076538#post1076538 with two useful links:

http://www.wintercampers.com/
http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintcamp.shtml (http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eoa/winter/wintcamp.shtml)
Also, http://http://viewsfromthetop.com/forums/ and http://www.adkforum.net/
There may be some AMC backpacks that fit your schedule:
http://www.outdoors.org/recreation/activities/new-hampshire.cfm

Thank You! Alot of great info here! I will continue to read further.

lemon73

12-10-2010, 01:16

I also do much sub 0 camping. Canisters dont work. I use a MSR simmer light and wind screen. I dont have an exped mat so I double up with a foam and a pro lite 4. Also a good winter tent will keep you much warmer.

Thats what I thought. In the summer I use a soda can side jet alcohol stove. I also have some MSR canister stove. But for this trip it will be the Whisperlite. I won't invest in a new stove to save 6 ounces.

Thanks!

lemon73

12-10-2010, 01:34

-switch fleece vest to down or nano. same weight but much warmer
-snowshoeing with bibs on would be way too hot for me
-lose soap and towel. wet wipes and bandanna.
-too much underwear
-too many stuff sacks
-need stove platform for cooking on snow.
-a small isobutane lantern w/100 grams fuel. Useful in a campfire like way. Provides light, heat, clothes dryer, companionship, ect. Dailed down to low, these put out alot of heat and light.

I already decided to ditch the fleece vest indeed (I'm about to post a new list soon). My down vest is 700 fill goose down. I think it is versatile enough to bring only this and leave the big fleece vest at home.
If you "get into" winter camping, I think you will find a way to get an expedition quality down bag. The weight and space savings is a huge benefit.

Down bag have been discarded from my inventory because of big concern over moisture build-up during the 15 days of this trip. The fact that they cost four times more than my current MHW lamina -30° is also a concern.

At night I lust over a Bison GWS -40 °C by Western Mountaineering... My summer sleeping bag is a WM and I'm in love with it...

Also, I have used canister stoves the last 10 or so trips. Makes cooking from tent possible, without white gas priming, spillage or flare up danger. CO danger still a big concern, so I never cook in the tent, but consider vented vestibule safe. Same goes for the lantern. Remember you have a lot of tent time and bring snacks. Enjoy.

Zen stoves has good info (http://zenstoves.net/Canister.htm#ColdWeatherOperation) about this.

lemon73

12-10-2010, 01:54

I'm Late getting on this thread but i thought i'd say a few things,

I will read every post until December 23 2010. And update you after January 10.

At some point, you get to a temperature where weight be damned you do NOT want to trust your life to a down coat. my winter hiking coat is made of rubber tubes with a cross section to keep them 'inflated' floats if gone overboard, warm when wet (repels water) doesn't really breathe... but neither will Gore-Tex at that temp once you become icicle-y.
I think that with all the clothes I will bring I will manage to keep warm by adding layers. There is no use to have a big layer that will require that I remove all the other layers. The down coat will be used only for camp and will be removed if I have to engage in any heavy activity (like building a snow shelter).

Just don't think it's gotta be lightweight, when we hiked Hecla island we did like 6 miles a day and were BEAT (~60 lb packs)... the idea of doing 12's or 20's is off the table IMHO.
I realized this long time ago... It is a BIG shift from my summer mindset... However I want to play safe. I will cut down on any non security related item as much as I can.

BTW, i LOVED my exped downmat... remarkably warm.

And expensive... Better worth it!
I disagree with those saying use a canister, not if it's going to be dead winter in the mountains. i use the MSR whisperlight international, and have only once had a bad uncontrollable flare up. in about 140 ounces of fuel worth of use.
I'm thinking about converting my Whisperlite to a Whisperlite international with a MSR WhisperLite Expedition Service Kit (http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=253437430 2696497&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442504697&bmLocale=en) in order to use gasoline instead of white gaz. Gasoline is supposed to be more efficient in winter.

Lastly, i can't say enough good about my Arc Teryx Beta AR pants ... expensive retail but you can find some GREAT deals on them; like 150$ if you watch and use a coupon. i use them every day for work.
My The North Face bibs will have to do. I forgot to reply to khumbukat about that but I really never use Gore-Tex except under extreme conditions. Accordingly I wont invest anymore in this kind of gear unless I'm forced to.
Goodluck, i didn't scrutinize every post; just giving another opinion, and it's just that... my opinion.

Really appreciated. Thank you!!

khumbukat

12-15-2010, 14:14

http://mountainvisions.blogspot.com/2010/02/hanging-stove-system-why-it-is-superior.html

BJStuart

12-15-2010, 14:42

I'm thinking about converting my Whisperlite to a Whisperlite international with a MSR WhisperLite Expedition Service Kit (http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=253437430 2696497&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442504697&bmLocale=en) in order to use gasoline instead of white gaz. Gasoline is supposed to be more efficient in winter.

I can't speak to really cold conditions, but I have never had good luck using my Internationale with gasoline. I've only tried it a couple of times, when I couldn't get white gas, and it might well be user error, but I found it to be smoky and inefficient and have never wanted to do it again. If you're going to try, I'd advise you to use it a few times with gasoline before you set out. Myself, I'd stick with white gas.

Tom Murphy

12-15-2010, 14:47

Many sections may be packed out for you so that is good.

But the weather is going to decide whether or not you make any progress because the big problem for you is that the AT in NH goes over all the peaks.

You don't want to be on the Franconia ridge or along the Presidentals in a white out. You just don't. The Carter range would be tough too. So I think your best bet would be Hanover to Franconia Notch.

That said if you are lucky enough to string together a bunch of blue bird days that you could have an excellent trip.

I think one of those handcrank radios that are tuned to the weather stations reports might be a good idea.

Look at this site for some clues into the what the "worst case" is. These guys have all their escape routes with compass bearings already figured out and write down on the back of their compasses (which are always around their neck).

www.chauvinguides.com (http://www.chauvinguides.com)

If you are not tied to doing the AT then a Bonds traverse with overnights at the Zealand Hut and at the intersection of the Bondcliff & Wilderness Trails would be a great winter backpack.

Tom Murphy

12-15-2010, 14:50

Stove - recommend SVEA123R and at least 8oz per day.

Stove base - not sure if you listed one; I use a mousepad superglued to a thin spiece of plywood as a base to insulate the stove from the snow

Tom Murphy

12-15-2010, 14:57

I never winter hike a trail I haven't already hike at least once before.

Typically my Fall hikes are all recon for my winter backpacks.

Feral Bill

12-15-2010, 21:13

Stove - recommend SVEA123R and at least 8oz per day.

Stove base - not sure if you listed one; I use a mousepad superglued to a thin spiece of plywood as a base to insulate the stove from the snow

It breaks my heart to say so, but the small fuel capacity of the SVEA makes it t tough choice if you are melting snow in quantity. This from a guy with 3 SVEAs in the family, one of which I've used for forty two years. An option would be two SVEAs, one to melt and one to cook. . If you could find an Optimus 111b or successor model, It's a great winter stove.
Also, the point about whiteout is no joke. I've been stuck in a tiny storm shelter in the Presidantial Range for two days, unable to move at all. NOT FUN!

lemon73

12-15-2010, 23:15

http://mountainvisions.blogspot.com/2010/02/hanging-stove-system-why-it-is-superior.html

Very interesting! I didn't found the MSR kit in town. I would have to build it or buy the Primus setup and modify it.

Found one on Ebay but I don't feel like waiting by the mail box this close from my departure date.

I would have to deal with the canister problem in the cold however...

I think I will stick to the Whisperlite for now... However I'm already starting to think about the ways I could built one of these... :-?

lemon73

12-15-2010, 23:17

I can't speak to really cold conditions, but I have never had good luck using my Internationale with gasoline. I've only tried it a couple of times, when I couldn't get white gas, and it might well be user error, but I found it to be smoky and inefficient and have never wanted to do it again. If you're going to try, I'd advise you to use it a few times with gasoline before you set out. Myself, I'd stick with white gas.

The gasoline conversion has been abandoned. To many bad comments about gasoline let alone the use of gasoline in the small pipes of a common Whisperlite... I don't want to spend my trip doing stove maintenance. White gas it will be.

Thanks for your comment!

lemon73

12-16-2010, 00:03

Many sections may be packed out for you so that is good.

Yes, I expect that most of the peaks will be packed before I get there.
But the weather is going to decide whether or not you make any progress because the big problem for you is that the AT in NH goes over all the peaks.

You don't want to be on the Franconia ridge or along the Presidentals in a white out. You just don't. The Carter range would be tough too. So I think your best bet would be Hanover to Franconia Notch.
Yes, this is expected. Of course I will not start the traverse of the summits if the weather station tells me that a whiteout is expected. But in the Whites the unexpected is expected... If it is possible to move when bad weather start to pick up or become foreseeable I will use pre-identified escape routes. If suddenly I can't make any more safe progress I will setup my tent (or find any kind of shelter) and wait it out in my sleeping bag.
That said if you are lucky enough to string together a bunch of blue bird days that you could have an excellent trip.
That would be so cool, sunny days are not that uncommon.
I think one of those handcrank radios that are tuned to the weather stations reports might be a good idea.

I have a Grunding radio with lithium batteries (almost worth more than the radio itself...) Very light, compact and powerful. Also, I has FM, AM and SW. (and spare batteries).
Look at this site for some clues into the what the "worst case" is. These guys have all their escape routes with compass bearings already figured out and write down on the back of their compasses (which are always around their neck).

www.chauvinguides.com (http://www.chauvinguides.com)
Very good site! I give me comfort in many of my choices and gives priceless info on the presi traverse in winter. Thank you very much!
If you are not tied to doing the AT then a Bonds traverse with overnights at the Zealand Hut and at the intersection of the Bondcliff & Wilderness Trails would be a great winter backpack.
I'm not tied to the AT, my mind is... However I love to hike the Pemigewasset Wilderness. I did the Wilderness and the Bonds this fall. Very nice easy hike.

Your post has been incredibly helpful! Thank you so much! :sun

lemon73

12-16-2010, 00:05

lemon73

12-16-2010, 00:12

It breaks my heart to say so, but the small fuel capacity of the SVEA makes it t tough choice if you are melting snow in quantity. This from a guy with 3 SVEAs in the family, one of which I've used for forty two years. An option would be two SVEAs, one to melt and one to cook. . If you could find an Optimus 111b or successor model, It's a great winter stove.
Also, the point about whiteout is no joke. I've been stuck in a tiny storm shelter in the Presidantial Range for two days, unable to move at all. NOT FUN!

The harsh realities of life are catching to me. I mean time and cash.

I already have many type of stoves at home and for this trip I have the option of using the Superfly or the Whisperlite. But I was pleased to learn about these nice little stoves.

And for the whiteout, at least I will have stories to tell!

Thanks!

lemon73

12-16-2010, 00:17

I never winter hike a trail I haven't already hike at least once before.

Typically my Fall hikes are all recon for my winter backpacks.

I already hiked most of the sections I plan to do. Also and because everything is different in the winter. I have painfully invested in a GPS (GPSMap60cx from Garmin) and the Topo maps 24K of the northeast region...

And a nice map with a great Silva compass. Being so ultralight on cash will help me find my way if eventually (and they will) the white blazes disappear in the snow.

lemon73

12-16-2010, 00:38

http://chauvinguides.com/PresiTraverse/presicookingguide.htm and Tom Murphy post made me think a lot about the hanging stove... I'm starting to think it's a must...

I also I will try my final load this weekend. If it is too heavy to be manageable (with food, 3 litre of water and 2 litre of fuel) I'm thinking of using a Pulka. On steep passage I would put the Pulka on my Backpack and elsewhere the backpack in the Pulka.

What do you think? (I could discard the Pulka before entering the Presidentials...)

(a research of the word "pulka" on this forum returned no hit at all... not a good sign)

lemon73

12-16-2010, 00:50

What is a Pulka :

http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20245

Tom Murphy

12-16-2010, 12:42

http://www.viewsfromthetop.com/forums/ Do a search on pulks.

I have never used my pulk on really steep ascents because I stay below treeline all winter; in the woods on valley trails.

http://skipulk.com/images/pulkbook.pdf This is where I got a lot of my ideas.

I made the "Chapter 3. The Simple Pipe Pulk" with a few mods.

- I reduced the length of the poles based on snowshoe use only [see page 27, Measuring Pole Length]

- used electrical conduit for the poles since I am not XC skiing and am not concerned about the poles injuring me in a fall.

- added two cross pieces; the cross pieces are PVC tees that slide over the electrical conduit with another piece of electrical conduit between them. All connections are duct tape. It looks like a ladder with two rungs.

- the system still can pivot at the two harness/conduit connections and at the two sled/conduit connections but it doesn't try to pass me going downhill

- spent a little money to use climbing rope for the pulk system. Nice to have a 25-30 foot length of high quality rope with me with no extra weight penalty.

- added a bunch of sst washers to keep the electrical conduit from possibly fraying the rope

- cannibalized a Kelty kid carrier for the harness. The load is on both shoulder and hips.

Comments:

IMO the less slop in the belt connection the better [less push pull tugging occurs].

I put my backpack in the pulk with a decent load in it. I try to put most of the "non-camping" day-hiking items in the backpack. So I could drop the pulk in an emergnecy and not have to sort through a million items.

When it gets too steep and the pulk feels like it is pulling me back down the hill, I put the backpack on and put the harness in the sled. This distributes a bunch of the load to my body and makes the ascent easier. The penalty is i have both a harness and a backpack.

I have a light weight 8x8 garden tarp that I use to keep everything in the pulk doing transit. I make a burrito with my gear as the filling and the tarp as the shell.

AVOID getting your pulk wet in river and stream crossings the added frction is murder. Thinking of buying xc ski wax or applying a can of PAM.

Good Luck, you will know very quickly whether it is feasible.

A fall back option is winter camping at Barnes Field CG or Hancock CG [both open for winter] and doing a series of day hikes.

lemon73

12-16-2010, 20:12

Here is the pictures of my prototype of hanging stove.

It is based on my MSR superfly and my MSR heat exchanger. It will fit on my 1.3 L pot. The system work without the pot in. And everything is collapsible.

Please note that is a proof of concept and that the rope will be changed for metal wire and that the coat hanger will be changed for something stronger. I may add one more coat hanger wire for full proof locking of the stove.

Alpine Jack

12-16-2010, 21:33

Tom Murphy

12-17-2010, 11:51

I'd love to see a picture of this. It sounds like a great idea!

Will do.

It is pretty straight forward. Old mouse pad and 1/4" plywood.

I also had good luck with a double mouse pad glued together because they were both pretty stiff but I burnt too many divets in that one priming the SVEA :o

tammons

12-17-2010, 16:41

Forget the poncho and get a rain suit. Even a driducks suit would be better than a poncho in cold weather.

A poncho is fine for summer, late spring and early fall, but the pits in cold wet weather.

I got a good dose of hypothermia in Colorado years ago due to a poncho and it wasn't even that cold. If I would have had been wearing a rainsuit I would have remained dry. That day if I had been in conditions you are going into I probalby would have ended up in the hospital or worse.

A breathable rain suit can act as a wind layer which is a plus.

weary

12-17-2010, 18:25

An ice axe strikes me as mandatory gear while hiking high elevations in Maine and New Hampshire. Rocky summits tend to be capped with frozen snow and ice. One slip and you can slide great distances before crashing into a boulder or over a precipice.

An ice axe is not a walking stick, but a means of self arrest. In slippery conditions carry the axe so that the sharp end can be instantly jammed into the ice when a slip occurrs, thus stopping the slide. Remember in a free fall you accelerate 32 feet per second per second. One has but a moment in which to avoid a sometimes fatal slide.

Us weekend winter hikers can occasionally skip carrying an ice axe based on a knowledge of the terrain and past weather conditions. But over 15 days in January, critically dangerous conditions are extremely likely.

Maine chapter AMC runs a very successful series of winter hikes annually designed to welcome newcomers to the winter pleasures of northern New England. Among the mandatory gear that everyone must carry is an ice axe.

Tinker

12-17-2010, 22:39

I would like to suggest that you take a look into buying some vapor barrier clothing. Worn under insulative clothing, it makes it more efficient. Worn inside a sleeping bag, it keeps your insensible perspiration from freezing inside the insulation, keeping your bag lighter, more easily compressed, and warmer. I would not suggest this for an overnighter as vapor barrier clothing is a bit tricky when it comes to heat regulation and ventilation, but it does work to keep you warmer and your insulation drier.
See www.warmlite.com (http://www.warmlite.com) for info. on vapor barrier clothing.
I would carry a sturdy container to use as a hot water bottle, too. You will sleep warmer, your bag, if damp, may dry out a bit from the extra heat, and you'll have warm water to start your breakfast with, making it a bit faster to pack and go. I use a Kleen Kantene 40 oz. bottle which I carry in an insulated holder during the day. The bottle and holder go to bed with me at night.

Tinker

12-17-2010, 22:46

Two more things:
1) Bring crampons. There are many areas above treeline which are blown clear of snow, making snowshoes unnecessary. Not only that, but the closely spaced rocks in many places (and narrow trails) make it impossible for a snowshoe user to get the crampons on the snow/ice.
2) Regarding the down air mat: In a tent on snow your body heat will usually melt some snow underneath your butt/hips. When you sit up to get out of your bag you will compress the down and air in your mat and briefly but thrillingly find yourself sitting on 32 degrees (F)! :D I know-I owned a Stephenson Down Air Mat. Now I use closed cell foam on snow - better for a number of reasons - #1 being that they don't go flat.

Tom Murphy

12-17-2010, 22:55

Vapor Barriers.

In below zero temps, I have tried plastic bags between my liner sock and the wool sock. Your feet get "clammy" and you are going to want to change out the liners to dry socks as soon as you hit camp.

I did a half-assed attempt at using a vapor barrier in my sleeping bag, hated it.

This is a good primer on VBs.

http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/vb.txt

Llama Legs

12-17-2010, 23:09

I always bring two 1/2 liter nalgene bottles. I fill them with nearly boiling water and put one in each of my boots overnight, all wrapped up in something for insulation. Dries boots out and you'll have drinking water in the morning.:sun

Snowleopard

12-18-2010, 14:31

Stove and fuel: If you already have a Whisperlight that should be fine, use it with white gas (Coleman fuel, etc.). Auto gasoline has lots of additives that you'd rather not breathe and may clog the stove. I prefer stoves like the whisperlight to the Svea 123 for cold weather (I have Optimus nova). I'd avoid a hanging stove unless you get lots of cold weather practice before the trip, especially a homemade one. The canister fuel doesn't vaporize in cold weather, so the stove system would need a way to vaporize the fuel without exploding. http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Mixtures.htm

Rain suit: your goretex suit will be great.

Ice axe and crampons: Crampons, definitely. Ice axe, yes if you know how to self arrest. Without an ice axe and skill in using it, you will have to turn back if it gets icy (likely) and steep. Always ask yourself, 'If I fall there, what happens?' On the other hand, an ice axe can be dangerous if you don't know how to use it.

Pulk, I haven't used one, but they seem like they'd be great for flat ground and miserable for steep.

GPS with lithium batteries plus map and compass is good.

Feet: Are your boots warm enough? Vapor barriers are often recommended for feet in cold. Plastic bread bags over liner socks work fine but wear out; bring spare bags.

Some interesting winter hiking/camping/climbing info from the ADK:
http://www.winterschool.org/WMS%20Student%20Handbook.pdf
http://www.winterschool.org/faqs.html
http://www.adk.org/trails/WinterHikingInfo.aspx

lemon73

12-18-2010, 23:32

I will stick to my Gore-Tex suit.

I will not get an ice axe. The main reason is that I have never used one. I'm quite used to hike in the Whites and I won't take very technical routes.

Thanks you for your comments ;)

lemon73

12-18-2010, 23:52

Stove and fuel: If you already have a Whisperlight that should be fine, use it with white gas (Coleman fuel, etc.).

I have decided that I will use Iso-propane. I want to try the hanging stove. I'm currently testing my homemade setup. It is quite undestructible unless you use an axe. However, I know the dangers and I will use extreme caution not to trow boiling water on myself, or my sleeping bag or start a fire or become asphyxiated.

It seem that many winter campers manage to use the Iso-butane efficiently. I will use hand warmer, my coat and my sleeping bag to get the canister to a reasonable temperature.

here is my final setup :

lemon73

12-19-2010, 00:11

This is pretty much my final list. Feel free to comment some more.

I think I have listen a lot to and learned also.

Thank you all!

lemon73

12-19-2010, 00:26

Feet: Are your boots warm enough? Vapor barriers are often recommended for feet in cold. Plastic bread bags over liner socks work fine but wear out; bring spare bags.

I use something like this : http://www.thenorthface.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=162579&storeId=207&catalogId=10201&langId=-1&from=subCat&parent_category_rn=11706&variationId=0L0

They are not alpine boots but they are 100% waterproof and very warm. Tested.

I will use the hot Nalgene trick. I might put them inside my sleeping bag or under my legs with the sole in my sleeping bag.

Other than that I have Gore-Tex socks that work quite well in the event my boots get wet.

I have a lot of experience with plastic bags and I tell you my friend, these days are over :o.

Roland

12-19-2010, 07:51

Monsieur Lemon,

Do not underestimate the value of an ice axe. It can be invaluable when getting water from frozen streams and waterfalls. With your experience in the Whites, you know these are prevalent at low elevations. And with the recent rainfall, they are flowing full-pipe. (Getting water in liquid form will save you a lot of fuel and the weight of that fuel.)

An ice axe is also useful to chip the ice that will form at the mouth of your water bottle. You may not have experienced this problem on day-hikes, but it will be an issue on an extended trip. You will likely find other uses for your axe, too, like lopping dead limbs off a spruce tree, to use as deadman anchors.

Since you plan to avoid technical routes, consider substituting your 12 point crampons with MicroSpikes. The weight savings will help offset the additional weight of a small ice axe. Full crampons can be a killer on ankles and knees in mixed conditions (rock, ice). We don't have a lot of snow right now; MicroSpikes may be more useful.

Hiking alone in full winter conditions is ill-advised, but I understand your "need" to do this. Be especially careful to stay hydrated. This can be a challenge in the winter. In freezing temperatures, we rarely feel thirsty. But with humidity so low, we lose water with each breath we exhale. Force yourself to drink a few liters each day. Even moderate dehydration leads to impaired judgment. And when you're alone, in conditions that can kill you, there's no room for impaired judgment.

Bonne Chance,

Tom Murphy

12-19-2010, 10:10

Great stove set-up. Of course be sure you have a top vent and a bottom vent. IMO use this set-up in a real emergency only.

That is a very comprehensive list with some real quality gear.

Here are things I take that I didn't see (but I am not doing much elevation and I have a pulk so it may be apples and oranges...)

thermometer & windchill chart
whistle
watch
thermos, 16 oz, sst
altimeter [non-electrical]
snow shovel , plastic
coffee filters / rubber bands for filtering melted snow
garage bag for snow collection
duct tape
electrical tie wraps
21" sven bow saw
gerber hatchet
pee bottle
book, paperback
lantern, battery powered
candle lanterns (2)
pen and paper

lemon73

12-19-2010, 12:09

Great stove set-up. Of course be sure you have a top vent and a bottom vent. IMO use this set-up in a real emergency only.

The tent is well vented from the top and I will leave an opening in the door while cooking.

thermometer & windchill chart : I keep forgetting to put it on the list!
whistle : I have one on my head lamp and the other on my backpack.
watch : Small Ironman
thermos, 16 oz, sst : None
altimeter [non-electrical] : None
snow shovel , plastic : Will use snowshoes
coffee filters / rubber bands for filtering melted snow : GREAT IDEA!
garage bag for snow collection : GREAT IDEA ALSO!
duct tape : Of course. I have some lengths on my hiking poles
electrical tie wraps : Great idea to repair snowshoes
21" sven bow saw : Leatherman tool saw
gerber hatchet : None (knife)
pee bottle : I get out at night (I might think about it.)
book, paperback : maybe (I listen to radio)
lantern, battery powered : Head lamp if needed
candle lanterns (2) : None
pen and paper : Yes

Thank you Tom for your great involvement is this tread. I really appreciate.

lemon73

12-19-2010, 12:32

Monsieur Lemon, do not underestimate the value of an ice axe.

I'm certain that an ice axe is a valuable tool. However, I have to make tough decisions based on financial and weight factors. I think I will have to manage with my hiking poles and knife/saw to do all that you said. I appreciate the info because It gave many useful use of an ice axe other than self arrest.

Since you plan to avoid technical routes, consider substituting your 12 point crampons with MicroSpikes. The weight savings will help offset the additional weight of a small ice axe. Full crampons can be a killer on ankles and knees in mixed conditions (rock, ice). We don't have a lot of snow right now; MicroSpikes may be more useful. I have pondered on this. Microspikes are surprisingly heavy. Although they are lighter than my Crampons. However, I like to have my front spikes to climb. I have a lot of hiking miles on my crampons and I know they can be though on ankles. There will be time at resupply to buy some Microspikes if needed.

Hiking alone in full winter conditions is ill-advised, but I understand your "need" to do this.I try to remove the risk factor as much as possible with good gear and safety devices. However the risk is always there. Last summer in the 100 miles wilderness I had a fall and my hiking pole punched a deep hole in my thigh. I had to walk alone bleeding for 2 miles to get to the golden road (hopefully I was at the end of the trail). So I always keep in mind that freak accidents can happen...

Be especially careful to stay hydrated. This can be a challenge in the winter. In freezing temperatures, we rarely feel thirsty. But with humidity so low, we lose water with each breath we exhale. Force yourself to drink a few liters each day. Even moderate dehydration leads to impaired judgment. And when you're alone, in conditions that can kill you, there's no room for impaired judgment.As suggested by my fellow Whitebalzers, I will make a few day hikes with a base camp before going for a multiday traverse. This will help me working out the details and see how I react to the cold, exhaustion and sleeping outside. And Yes I will stay hydrated.

Bonne Chance,Thank you! :sun

lemon73

12-19-2010, 12:45

Forgot to add to the list my mountain house cozy. To keep my food warm!

Roland

12-19-2010, 16:32

If you'd like to borrow an ice axe, and/or MicroSpikes (if they fit your boots), let me know.

lemon73

12-20-2010, 22:27

If you'd like to borrow an ice axe, and/or MicroSpikes (if they fit your boots), let me know.

Finally I bought the Microspikes. Actually the "Trail crampons" from Hillsound that I prefer.

I also bought a metal coffee filter to filter water.

No ice axe ;)

Tom Murphy

12-20-2010, 23:13

Those trail crampons have slightly longer teeth. Definitely what I will buy when my microspikes fail or get worn out.

I solo hike/camp in winter and love it.

Doing that for more than 2 or 3 nights is the challenge.

Out of curiosity, weigh your sleeping bag before and after. I have read books on Arctic explorations where the bags got very heavy from water vapor from the sleepers.

Good luck, please post a trip report.

Toolshed

12-21-2010, 01:32

I thought I'd own tehmarket on these 2 points but tinker beat me to it. As for a synth sleeping bag, you will still get ice build up inside the bag and you will need to carry that damn thing every day. It will get heavier and heavier and the loft will become less and less. Use your down bag and a VBL. You really need to keep moisture out of the bag not only for loss of loft, but also to avoid weight gain in the bag.

Please get a closed cell foam pad for beneath your exped. I have winter climbed and backpacked in the northeast for several decades and your #1 issue is safetay and backup safety. The foam pad is foolproof. If all else fails and you find yourself in a snowcave, the pad is still foolproof.

- As for the stove. I swear by whisperlites.
- I use an iceaxe to break through frozen streams to get water to avoid
tediously melting snow.
- I carry/wear Grivel Newmatic 10point Crampons that will work with any
snowshoe boot.
- I also carry/wear Atlas 1235 snowshoes (I'll carry smaller 8x15 snowshoes
if I am going to be on often used broken trails).
- you need to avoid anything loose like ponchos - All that flapping will beat
you senseless in high winds and become a sail.
- You will need goggles or your eyelashes will freeze shut when your eyes
tear up in the high winds
- I swear by a light set of gloves that allow dexterity and a small level of
protection, I wear them inside my OR Goretex shell overmitts, but I also
have a pair of fleece mitts that go inside the overmitts.
- I also carry a very large Dana Designs Astralplane and it barely fits my winter gear.
- I used a pulka from time to time. I tried a homemade with an old external frame backpack frame and PVC tubing (with an x-cross design) to stop the sled from jamming me when going downhill, but the results were marginal overall and horrible in peaks and narrow trails.
- I had an opportunity to use a mountainsmith pulka one year and I liked it a
lot. It has straps/lashings so when teh pulka tipped, (as they will on narrow
trails and turns) everything didn't fall out of it. I have seen others with the
backpack in the pulk and just pick it up and put the whole thing on. I never
got around to trying that. :)

Good luck!!!

weary

12-21-2010, 12:01

lemon73

12-29-2010, 13:49

Hello all thank you again for your help with the gear. As promised here is my trip report.

December 29 - Gorham public librairy (no spellcheck so be kind - I don't speak english you know...)

I have decided that for starters and to test my gear that I would do a trail I have done fairly often and that I know well. I decided to go from Lincon woods trough the Pemigewasset Wilderness and up the Bonds. After that I had the option to go back by the Franconia Fall trail or to go to Garfield and Lafayette and come back to Lincon Wood trough the Osceo trail. My point was that there was many escape options if anything got wrong with my gear of physicly.

I came at Lincon Woods early in the afternoon on the 25th of December. All my gear from the list was in my backpack and I took 4-5 day worth of food to give my plenty of options. The food was mainly mountain house, instant oaltmeal, Cliff Bars and bread and peanut butter.

The pack was over 50 pounds without the snowshoes (my fish scale dosent go over 50 pounds). I weight 225 pounds (just to give you a ratio).

I left around 3:00 if I remember well. The trail was pretty much devoid of snow. I walked the flat section (the old railroad) until I passed the bridge and was on the Wilderness trail. When the night falled I found a nice camping spot 200 feet from the trail and established my camp there.

The weight of the bag was pretty managable. The Osprey Alther 70 suspension system was really comfortable (custom heat-molded hip belt) and handled the weight pretty well. I had left the pulka in the car and I was confident that was a good decision.

Nothing special about that night. As usual not much sleep.

- tried to sleep with boots in the sleeping bag : very difficult and they wetted to bottom of the sleeping bag.

- All of the clothes that I wore that day stayed in the sleeping bag with me. I sleept with only a t-shirt but all my gear was around me in the sleeping bag (only slightly humid) everything got dry pretty fast.

- The hanging stove performed really well. I had reheated the Iso-propane canisted in my down coat while setting up camp. I used a "Tosterz" hand warmer putunder it to keep it warm. I used a sock and a big rubber band to keep it in place. I also used my aluminium windshield to channel the heat from the stove to the canister by putting the shield thight around the canister.

- Had a Mountain House for diner. The Mountain house cozy is a must (made from duct tape and aluminium bubble isolation material (I don't know the name of this material...))

- I didin't had to melt snow as water was pretty abundant.

- Making a good snow platform to put the tent on is a challenge. Especially sinc there wasen't much snow around (6 inches outside the trail). This is pretty important as you will end up sliding to the bottom of the tent is there is a slope in your platform.

- The Exped Downmat 7 performed really well keeping the cold away. However, there is a slow leak somewhere and I had to pump some more air into in to prevent my self to sink in too much in some spots. My decision to go for the model with the pump not intergrated into the matter was a good one I think. I could just slide the mattress from under me and inflate it with its own bag in minutes. Otherwise I would have to got out of the sleeping bag. found a flat surface on the ground of the tent, clear it from gear just to be able to pump properly...

- My lamina 30 was really warm. I had no trouble compressing it in my granitgear waterproof compression bag. However, I had terrible problems with the zipper. The zipper snag constently. It is a real problem. The time and enery need to unzip or zip the bag is enormous. The problem is that there is tow small band of black fabric on each side of the zipper (to prevent air to enter I assume). These two small band of fabric often snag into the zipper preventing is from moving froward or backward. You have to pull really hard with your fingers on it to remove it from the mechanism. It is not an easy feat especially when you are inside the bag or with freezing fingers. My shoulders and arms were in pain form all the twisting required to unsnag the zipper. Basiclly unless you unsag it, you are trapped in the sleeping bag. This could be a very dangerous situation (more on this later).

Continue in next reply...

lemon73

12-29-2010, 15:09

Leaving from Lincoln Woods I looked at the weather one last time. The
weather, for all I remember, was pretty good for the next five days...
The morning after my first night camping I packed my stuff and got on the
trail again. I took time before that to make coffee and oatmeal with the
stove hanging for a tree branch outside (really convenient).

The trail was open by someone wearing red MSR snowshoes getting down from Guyot campsite. I know this because I followed his trail from the bridge to the campsite finding bits of red plastic here and there. At some point I putted on my Hillsound crampons.

- The Hillsound crampons were really easy to put on. Only the velcro part is more tricky. More on this later... They are good on mixed terrain with
patches of ice, rock and snow. I felt confident at all times and I almost
forgot they were there unless I was walking on ice. They feel very light.
The XL fitted really well on my size 12 winter boots.

I did not really encounter snow until I was over the Bonds. After that I
had to wear my MSR snowshoes. I spent the night at Guyot campsite inside a shelter. I used the fly for my tent as a door to block the wind. There is 6 anchors to fit a tarp, very useful in bad weather. There was a huge vinly mattress there so I didint have to use my Downmat.

The water source is running and was pretty much clear of snow and ice.
During the night the wind was pretty strong and I had to fix the fly once using my snowshoes to hold it. Listening to the radio all night. I had no idea of what was happening outside. Seems like all weather reports are recorded way in advance and don't really take into account for current developpements.

In the morning I waked up to weater reports describing the blizzard that occured between the 26th and the 27th. Low visibility and high winds...
There was about 2 feet of snow on the ground in addition to the 6 inchs to one foot of snow on the trail after the summit of Bond. Had to put my snowshoes to use the privy and to get some more water.

I decided to put my Gore-Tex Bivies and my goretex coat. I knew there would be deep snow and that I could fall many times. I putted my Mountain Hardwear gaiters over the bivies for added protection. I used only the outside part of my OR Alti Mitts with ultra thin Marmott liners (last minute addition) and I kept the Primaloft inner mitts inside my Gore-Tex with a pair of polar 100 windstopper gloves. I knew the Alti were too hot but I wanted the protection form snow.

I drank plenty of water before leaving. (not using water treatment is very straightfroward! - not problems so far...).

I decided to go up to the top of Mount Guyot to see how the situation would evolve (left around 9:30). The snow was really powerdery, my snowshoes didin't provide any flotation at all. I don't think any other kind of snowshoes would have provided flotation in this kind of snow. It was fairly easy to walk because the snow was so light. But still I had to be careful because the terrain under it was uneven. However, the snowshoes were giving me stability.

My progression was real slow. And my souvenirs of Mount Guyot being really close from the camp site seemed like off. Depending of the wind shifting the snow I was walking in anywere from 2 feet of snow to 4 feet at times. The worst part was just before the end of the treeline. I had to dig trough a wall of snow 8 feet deep and 12 feet long to finally getting over the bump and onto the naked rock above treeline.

From there I saw that the blizzard was making it too dangerous to continue this way. The kerns were visibles at a distance, but I was feeling that It would not be a good option to continue. Especially because I remember being confuse about what trail to follow at this spot before even under clear skies.

So I decided to turn back. It was only a test run and it didn't matter much. I went back to the intersection of the trail to the campsite and the Bondcliff trail. There I decided that I didin't wanted to got down 200 feet again to the campsite. I heard on the radio that morning that the blizzard would calmdown. So I took the chance to continue froward to the summit of Bond to see what could be done from there. I was also thinking that because the snow was still falling, I could be worse tomorrow with even more snow in the trail... So what was done today even if not much would have been someting won.

It took forever to get there. I must say I was pleased by my general physical shape. But somehow the action of walking in this type of snow on uneven terrain made for a really slow progression.

The wind and blizzard at the summit of Bond was tolerable. Thats why I took the decision to go froward to see how things looked like on the ridge. For the small portion of the trail above treeline everything looked pretty good. Still I had to be carefull with hidden rock under the snow.

But when I got to the end of the trees, where the ridge is on bare rock again, I stopped in my tracks. The blizzard was terrible. The wind was blowing full force carrying snow with it. I knew the day was over. Back into the trees I found a sheltered spot on the trail where I decieded to put up my tent...

To be continued in the next reply (the day where I alomst died)

lemon73

12-29-2010, 16:01

Usually I would not camp in the middle of a trail. But the perspective of seeing other hikers that day where close to nil and I have no intention to get back to Guyot. I decided to camp there to keep and eye on any clearing of the blizzard. Altought I was in pretty good shape with a good level of energy, I didint wanted to be in trouble the next day, packing everything up, get back to the same point and turn back again loosing a ton of energy...

It was out of the question for me to wait with all my clothes on for a clearing of the blizzard. Either I walk or I camp. Otherwise I could have become cold in matter of minutes and it is really hard to reverse that state.

I built a large snow platform with my snowshoes using all the snow I could find around. Large engouh to fit my tent. I setup the tent with three guylines on each side attached to trees. I used my hiking poles for securing the tent while I was setting it up and my snow shoes as anchors for the vestibule. I putted my bag inside the tent and I went in with it. It was around 2:30 PM.

I soon realized that my platform was not on level. It was not critical altought it made my stay less confortable. As soon as I got inside I cleared all the snow I could from my equipment. I removed my bibs and my down coat. I forgot to tell but while going back on Mount Bond I putted my down coat over my Gore-Tex to fight the chill. BIG mistake. I should have worn it and take it of after a short while. The perspiration made it lost a lot of loft. However, it was still mostly warm when I putted it on later that day.

I took my sleeping bag out of the compression bag. At that point there was a fair amount of ice on the surface of the bag. The night before I used to hot nalgene bottle inside the bag. It worked well drying it but later that night I was perspiring too much and all that humidity froze outside the bag. There didin't seem to have any ice inside however. The outer layer of the Mountain Hardwear Lamina -30 is a bit too ice frienly I must say. I would have expected that the ice would have go off but scrubbing it but it was really clinging to the bag. Otherwise than that the bag was warm.

After a few hour of rest I was feeling too cold because of the wind. I went outside to build snow walls around the tent. That did the job by cutting the wind from going in from under the fly. The tent was pretty warm after that. however with the snow added by the wind, my tent was becoming smaller and smaller inside and I had to push on walls to make more space.

I decided to cook a hot meal to give me warmth and energy. That was a very good idea. That would have been impossible whitout the hanging stove. I made a hot nalgene and while it was warming my feet I boiled tow cups of water to make a Mountain house. The best beef macaroni I ever had. The nalgene quickly melted the ice and dryed the sleeping bag and everthing in it. The tent was full of steam for my gear and from the stove. I opened the tent screen door to let air in and the condensation was making a ballet of fog with the movement of the wind...
Not much sleep, very warm, terrible winds.

To be continued...

lemon73

12-29-2010, 16:05

I'm running out of time here and I will be back on the trail tomorrow moring. I don't want to rush things (I already skiped so much gear info and comment...). I will be back soon to tell you about how I got down from there after many adventures and some poor decision making (or not?).

BTW I bought an ice axe and a shovel...

Snowleopard

12-29-2010, 16:16

Interesting report. Be careful out there.

Tom Murphy

12-29-2010, 19:32

Thanks for such an honest report. And you made a number of good decisions that we can all learn from (or re-learn from).

- Turning around.

- Securing the flying (!) and then tying out to trees.

- Going back out to building the snow walls.

- The hot nalgene to warm your feet.

- Getting as much snow off of your clothes as possible before the tent got warm.

- The stove set-up.

IMO camping on trail is absolutely acceptable given the conditions.

I would have gotten off the ridge down to Guyot given how much food and fuel you had but that is just me. It is a lot of elevation to give up from the ridge to the shelter, no doubt.

Sounds like you repeated Ken's experience, thankfully with better gear and a better outcome.

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Newsroom/News_2004/News_2004_Q1/Hiker_Holmes_IDed_011604.htm

hnryclay

12-31-2010, 22:38

coffee filters / rubber bands for filtering melted snow

Definitely bring this, or a clean bandanna unless you like drinking floaties!!

Slo-go'en

01-01-2011, 16:44

I meet lemon73 up at the Gray knob cabin on Mt Adams last night. He's doing good and in good shape. He's one sturdy fellow to do what he has been doing this last week!

Wags

01-02-2011, 02:58

sounds like a really cool adventure... i'm sure you're learning tons!

eric1981

01-07-2011, 12:53

Hey Lemon, you make it back safe?
Anymore updates?

lemon73

01-08-2011, 00:39

I'm back! (a little sooner) I have driven for so long. Really tired. Lost 10 pounds. I'm feel really fit (winter hiking is great for the legs but also upper body). Will post many updates this week-end. I'm going hiking tomorrow, have to sleep...

Also will get a refund for the SPOT and cancel and get refund for all the fees for the activation of the SPOT. How can you trust a device that is supposed to save your life if it breaks so easily? My, camera, Iphone, radio and GPS made it in the cold and humidity and the SPOT did not...

A part form that really great trip! (Also my car got smashed in Lafayette Campground parking and invaded by rodents...). Synthetic sleeping bags are so indestructible! And I now know where all the moose hide in the winter, I found them!

See you tomorrow!

lemon73

01-09-2011, 11:50

In the morning after my night on the side of Mount Bond I woke up around 7:00. I waited a bit for the sun to come up and I crawled into the vestibule that I had positioned in a way that I could monitor the ridge easily. The blizzard was gone and the sun was shinning!:sun Its time! I said to my self. I started packing inside the tent. I decided to wear my bibs with my Gore-Tex coat. Under that I was wearing what I have worn all my trip which is a Nike dryfit t-****, a long sleeve synthetic pullover (MOMENTUM HYBRID) and an old polar 100. I was also wearing my MHW pants and gaiters.

I packed the tent and the wind was not that terrible (it always feel worst when you are inside...) I putted my snowshoes on as a reflex because I spent the last day in so much snow. Soon I was on my way...

And then the wind. :eek:

I went many time on top of Mount Washington in the winter. Sometime I go on top of the restaurant and I play with the wind. I let myself fall forward in the wind so the wind will keep me standing... Fun. However, I never NEVER EVER experienced winds as the ones that were blowing on the ridge of the Bonds that day.

Lets remember I'm 225 pounds 5'11" and I had a 55 pounds backpack on me. I started walking on the ridge using all the strength in my leg and arms with my poles to stay standing. I was stopping at times trying not to fall from the gust of wind that were coming from the west side of the ridge (west to east). Bending my knees and using my poles to stay up. But finally I felt to the ground. My snowshoes were really useless and were really a hassle trying to make my way on the ridge naked of snow because of the high winds. I was wondering my face close to the reddish gravel of the Bonds how rocks were staying in place...

My right snowshoe undid itself when I felt. I guess it is my fault. The snowshoes spent all the night buried in the snow and were very cold when I putted them on. I guess I didn't made sure the to rear strap was properly secured... As I experienced in the next days, properly secured MSR snowshoes never undo themselves. So there I was... Lying on the soil, fighting to stay in place and with a snowshoe to fix.

I was wearing my OR Alti Mitts (http://www.outdoorresearch.com/site/m_s_alti_mitts.html) with the idiot cords fixed to my coat. After a few tries I had to remove my mitten to secure the straps. At that moment, my mitten flown into the wind away from me! THE IDIOT CORD BROKE!!!! :eek:

I remember sometime ago when I was reading about Everest and all the story of a guy that died or that lost a hand because he lost his mitten in the wind like that... That story is always in my mind in the winter above tree line and thats why I always secure my mittens!

I would never had expected something like this to happen... Outdoor Research M's Alti Mitts™ are safety devices. The are supposed to be constructed for the meanest coldest conditions on earth. "Warmest expedition mitt available" as they say on the web site. They are not for use in your yard. $199 USD (224$ Canadian) Mittens... But they let me down when i needed them the most.

The thermometer was indicating -20°C (-4 F) and with the wind chill... No idea... I think I could have lost my hand.

The horror hit me like a blow when I saw the mitten leave my sight. F***! I said. I was seeing myself shuffle into my bag for my other mittens in the crushing wind. I looked up to see where the mitten went (Mount Washington perhaps?) but is was stuck into the strap of my Leki pole!!!!

I quickly grabbed my mitt and putted it on my freezing hand and said to myself I will never remove you again!! I managed to put the snowshoes on again and I resumed my progression.

[the dogs have to go out... Be back with the rest of the story...]

Wags

01-09-2011, 12:31

awesome adventure...

lemon73

01-09-2011, 14:14

Well, it is not much an adventure than a tale to think about when making decisions while winter hiking.

I resumed walking. Crouching down times to times and hanging to kerns. The gust of wind were so strong I had to stop and wait many times to have a little calm down in order to start again.

I second guessed my decision to cross the ridge many times.

- I should have gone down to the ridge before packing to see how the wind was.

- I should have gone down to the ridge to see if snowshoes were necessary.

- I should not have crossed in this wind condition.

The reason why I should not have crossed is that although it was doable, the potential for accidents or other trouble was too great. The ridge was really an inhospitable dangerous place. The mitten incident was a reminder of that.

I made it to a small plateau with big rocks. however the wind was coming from everywhere and there was not much shelter.

I rested a while and regained my composure. I decided to ditch the snowshoes and put on my crampons (for ice). I thought for a brief moment about staying there longer... But that seem like a very bad idea. It was very cold and not real shelter was available. I was glad that the sun was there to bost my morale and to warm me a little.

However i was looking with apprehension at the rest of the ridge... But I decided that I had to get out of that "death zone".

I was under then impression that the wind could not get worst. I was wrong. It got worst. I had to crawl on my belly for a few hundred feet. Walking or walking on all four was out of the question.

At one moment I was so close to the cliff... I was securing myself with my crampon into the ice as much as I could. Hopefully the wind was blowing in the right direction away from the cliff. At that spot the noise of the wind was deafening!!! It was like standing close to a freight train passing by. That distinctive noise resonated long after in the valley.

I forgot to say that I was wearing my OR baklava. I was really grateful for that because frostbite was a real concern at that moment. however, the mouth and the nose are not as protected as they could be. And and was happy after this ordeal to see that I did not had no frostbite on my upper lips and nose. At times I was giving myself additional protection with my mitten.

As soon as I got near to the summit of Bondcliff, the wind was less terrible. The wind was bouncing on the side of the mountain and was blowing over the summit instead than close to the ground like on the ridge. I almost ran, stopping at times to let gust of wind pass. Soon I was to that small 8' rock wall that I climbed two days before to get out of the treeline.

I have to say that my Gore-Tex bibs and coat performed extraordinary well during this crossing. I never felt the wind. I never felt the wind chill either. I was free to focus on the real problems instead of focusing on keeping warm fighting frostbite.

Once back in the deep snow I put on my snowshoes again because the snow was really deep. I looked at the thermometer and saw that I was -20°C. I ate some cliff bar and took time to fix my clothes and equipment. To start fresh. The sun was still shinning and the sky was blue. But the growling of the wind was still really present...

I made it to the parking lot of Lincon woods that day around 4 pm. My car was a snow bank with 2 foot of snow on top.

I think it was important for me to share this experience with you guys. Altought it doesn't put me in good light and expose me to critisisim.

I made other hikes during my stay in the Whites I may continue this trip report later with more gear comments (MHW sleeping bag, Marmot glove liners, MEC TGV tent, The use of Isopropane in cold weather, Petzl / Charlet Moser Snowracer Ice Axe and the infamous SPOT device...)

Hello also to Slo-go'en that I met at Grey Knob at new year eve after a 12 hours day of trail breaking on the slopes of mount Adams.

Later guys!

Tom Murphy

01-09-2011, 14:51

If anyone thinks he is overstating the conditions, read this:

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/News...Ded_011604.htm

Same ridge, same time of year. The exposed ridges of the Whites can be easy or deadly, it depends on the weather.

Seems like you made good decisions then bad decisions. How was the rest of the trip? Had the big thaw hit while you were not there on the Northern Presidentals?

Tom Murphy

01-09-2011, 16:34

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Newsroom/News_2004/News_2004_Q1/Hiker_Holmes_IDed_011604.htm

weary

01-09-2011, 20:03

Sadly, I can't do it any more without endangering rescuers. But for 25 or 30 years, I did three or four backpacks a year into the high ridges and summits of Maine and New Hampshire. I have fond memories of them all. It was great fun. The only true wilderness in the east is the high peaks in winter. I heartedly recommend the experience. Just temper enthusiasm with common sense.

eric1981

01-09-2011, 22:33

I am really enjoying your reports! As I am a relatively inexperienced winter backpacker, reading about your accomplishments and mistakes is exciting and sobering at the same time. Keep'em coming!
It's crazy that the idiot cord broke!!! Awful timing.
How did the isopro do?

lemon73

01-10-2011, 01:02

The infamous ridge
The infamous mitten
Washington summit
Adams summit
Breaking trail
My tent during that night
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=44807&catid=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=22905&cutoffdate=-1

Deadeye

01-10-2011, 10:40

The only source of water you are going to have is melting snow/ice. Wolf

I dsagree... many streams will be flowing just fine even in sub-zero temps, and you'll have pleny of liquid water available.

Tom Murphy

01-10-2011, 13:41

I disagree... many streams will be flowing just fine even in sub-zero temps, and you'll have pleny of liquid water available.

Yes, you can save a LOT of fuel by heating stream water that you can gotten under the ice but I think one of the best parts of winter camping is not having to worry about water sources.

@LEMON73, what trail is the "broken out trail" pic from? Coming back off Bondcliff to Wilderness Trail?

What was your route to Washington? Out and back from from Grey Knob? that waould have been a HUGE day !

lemon73

01-10-2011, 21:31

Yes, you can save a LOT of fuel by heating stream water that you can gotten under the ice but I think one of the best parts of winter camping is not having to worry about water sources.

@LEMON73, what trail is the "broken out trail" pic from? Coming back off Bondcliff to Wilderness Trail?

What was your route to Washington? Out and back from from Grey Knob? that waould have been a HUGE day !

The water was abundant. I was able to refill many times a day and to get water close to each of my camps. My Isopro 8oz canister were lasting many nights. I mostly used my stove at night for dinner. The truth is that I only ate cliff bars for breakfast and lunch (4 to 5 bars a day every time I was hungry).

The pic is from the Six husbans trail. I went up Mount Washington and down the Sphix trail in the deep deep snow (I got lost many times on my way down) and I slept on the intersection of Great Gulf trail and Sphinx trail after loosing the trail for a while. Next morning I found where the trail crossed the brook and went to the Six Husbands trail and after that up to Madison by the Buttress trail, then to Tunderstorm Junction and down Lowes path to Grey Knob where I took the wrong way until I met the intersection of The Perch on the Gray Knob trail. Then turned back and got in at the Grey Knob Cabin at 7:30 or later. All of this while breaking trail in 2 feet of snow (until Starlight lake). I was kind of hungry...

lemon73

01-10-2011, 21:52

Some other pictures. I didn't take much pictures. I was to busy. Also everybody has seen countless pictures of the Whites.

-Summit of Bond before the blizzard

-The Bond Cliff trail after I was back from my adventure

-The Wilderness trail back to the parking lot wasn't open at all (but the snow was less deep in the valley)

Tom Murphy

01-11-2011, 17:29

WOW - I have been on those trails in the Summer. I can't imagine them in the winter with the deep snow and a winter pack. Well done !

Heading up there for two nights / three days.

Starting at the North Twin Trailhead to third river crossing and then bushwhacking into the Little River Drainage. Plan is to cross over the col between Zealand and Hale and then out Lend-A- Hand trail, Zealand trail, Zealand road. If I make good time I will cross back over the ridge at the col between two of the Sugerloafs via a snowmobile trail, overwise a roadwalk back to car....

Not up to par with your adventure but a challenging trip given my current conditioning level.

Thank you so much for this thread.

Wags

01-11-2011, 21:12

so in hindsight and if you had to go again... would you or will you carry a 2nd pair of mittens?

Snowleopard

01-11-2011, 21:38

Lemon, I'm glad you're back OK. Thanks for this very instructive thread.
The lesson I've learned: I've got to be sure that I can adjust all my equipment with my shell mittens on. I'm not close to that now because my shell mitts are just too big. Once I get new shell mitts I have to practice putting on and taking off showshoes and crampons and adjusting clothing. I've got to get more efficient and fast at doing this in awkward and uncomfortable circumstances.
--Walter
PS One of my favorite pieces of equipment is a tunnel hood. It has a wire stiffener that allows you to close it up so that you're looking out through a narrow tunnel. They're great for windy conditions. They can be found sometimes in Army Navy surplus stores. The best version that I have I got in Montreal, Canadian Army surplus.
http://store.colemans.com/cart/images/0105.gif

lemon73

01-13-2011, 22:43

For your information I got a full refund at the store for my SPOT that stopped functioning on dec 31. The thing went dead and did not start anymore even after 2 battery changes.

I also got a full refund of the activation fee and all other options by the SPOT consumer support.

I did not pursue any compensation for all my troubles related to the failure of the system. I was lucky the SPOT did not failed at a crucial moment (I was having cell phone reception at Grey Knob that morning and warned my contact at home that no OK message would follow).

Before that I was pretty happy with the device. My friend and family liked to be able to follow me around on google maps. However, I have a hard time trusting that device now. All my other electronic devices are in perfect condition and these products are in no way supposed to be as rugged as the SPOT.

I would not recommend the device because it create great expectations that it cannot meet.

lemon73

01-13-2011, 22:56

Thank you Tom for posting that information. I was deeply sadden by this story. Kenneth Holmes was a father of 5 and a state park worker.

I have to say that my conditions on Bondcliff although dangerous and uncomfortable do not compare with Holmes situation. The day Holmes dies, the temperature was -44F and -100F with the wind chill.

"Sometimes even with the best gear, "it’s not always going to cut it," said Lt. Robert Bryant of the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department"

lemon73

01-13-2011, 23:05

The lesson I've learned: I've got to be sure that I can adjust all my equipment with my shell mittens on.

I'm not sure if this is the lesson to be learned from this... Maybe, always test your equipment and inspect it before you go?

Or don't trust your life on some pieces of equipment, always think twice and take all the precautions?

BTW, OR is telling me they are inspecting their stock of Alti Mitt for any defects. They asked me for the Batch code of my mitts so they could locate them. I don't think I will hear more about this. I tested a few mitten at the store and some failed easily. I think their error is in the design. The way the loop of the Idiot cord is sewn into the mitten is prone to manufacturing defects. They should change that to be sure that manufacturing defect is less likely to occur.

About the Tunnel hood. I have that on my Canada Goose Expedition coat. Its a great coat but it does require a snowmobile to transport around...

lemon73

01-13-2011, 23:09

so in hindsight and if you had to go again... would you or will you carry a 2nd pair of mittens?

I had a second pair in my backpack. Somehow the idea of emptying my backpack in extreme wind condition is not pleasing. Also, if I had removed my backpack I would have had to try to keep it from flying away in the fist place.

lemon73

02-04-2011, 20:24

Hey! I know this tread is dead now but I feel like I need to finish it with some final info.

1) Regarding the OR mittens. This is the mail I got from OR :

Hi Daniel,

I wanted to follow up and thank you for bringing this to our attention. A recent shipment of Alti Mitts and Gloves were indeed manufactured differently from what we specified. We are currently in the process of repairing them, and informing our dealers of the issue. If you want a replacement pair, I can have our customer service team contact you and arrange to have a replacement pair sent to you once they have been repaired. Another option is to attach the idiot cord to the hang loop on the cuff as this loop is bartacked and is quite secure (see photo attached).

Regards,
Troy
Troy Jones | Compliance Manager
2203 1st Ave S, Seattle, WA 98134

So in the end I'm pretty satisfied with OR reaction. They have been very kind from the start and took the issue seriously. My mittens are in the mail.

2) Exped gave me a new Downmat 7 because mine had a slow leak of some sorts.

3) I got a full refund or my SPOT device after it failed me while at Grey Knob cabin. They also refunded me for all I paid for activation and insurances and options on the SPOT website. They were really prompt to accommodate me and the were really appalled by the failing of the device.

Sorry if I didn't report on the other hike I did on this trip. Needless to say I had a blast hiking in the Whites this winter and my dreams take me back almost every night to theses trails...

I hope you can enjoy the same.