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Digger'02
12-07-2010, 10:16
What are your tricks for making camping fun below freezing and beyond? Yes, the boiling water in a nalgene in a sock, the hand warmer in the boot at night, the warming of the fuel bottle, old grandad,....anything else?

nox
12-07-2010, 10:42
Take your insoles out of your boots and put them in the bottom of your sleeping bag. It warms them up for you so putting your frozen boots on in the morning isn't as painful. If you arent sleeping with your water bottles, make sure they are empty with the lid off so you can refill them the next day without having to deal with the lid being frozen on it. Bring a stove that can handle the temperature that you are expecting.

scope
12-07-2010, 10:48
Don't let yourself get too cooled down as the temps drop in the late afternoon, early evening. You need body heat to help your bag (or quilt) be more efficient and you likely need all the efficiency you can get. Might mean early to bed, and no sitting around a campfire.

My warming beverage of choice is red wine.

Tipi Walter
12-07-2010, 10:56
This is gonna sound like overkill, but it has really improved my winter backpacking and camping life: Get a Feathered Friends Icefall down parka and a pair of WMountaineering down pants!! I even use down booties sometimes.

Some other tricks:
** Get several 3 hour candles and light one for in-tent hand warming when sitting up on your pad reading or writing. It's all about Hands and Feet.

** Have an overkill -15F or -25F down bag and depend on it as your lifeline and in-tent woodstove---it's the main thing keeping you alive.

** Don't scrimp on flimsy or inadequate sleeping pads---get whatever will keep you off the ground and warm with at least an R value of 5. Hint: Exped downmat at 8R. Nice.

** Long nights help with books, radio, keeping a journal, eating. Carry a couple books and burn them thru the trip. Why not? Cheap books can be found almost anywhere. Or copy a bunch of stuff off the interweb and take them out to read and burn, etc.

** When it's -10F you can fill your cooking pot with water from the creek the night before and in the morning get up, fire the stove and melt and boil the water. Water filters are useless in deep cold so you'll be using a bunch more stove fuel---take extra. And stick with the old reliable and hot burning white gas variety stove. It'll work no matter how cold it gets.

** Hot water bottles are nice to have when packing up in the morning as your fingers will be really hurting but before you shove off you can instantly warm them with one of those hot bottles. Uses alot of fuel, though.

** For in-tent overnight water storage I bring in the boots, put a glove over the top of my full water bottle, place bottle in a boot and cover and wrap the entire boot and bottle with my down parka right before going to sleep. You can also place your camera and camera batteries in the parka, too. I never put a full bottle of water inside my sleeping bag with me as anything could leak---disaster. Forget about using water bladders when it's zero or below. Tubes freeze up.

** Be prepared for changing conditions. When you start out at 2,000 feet with 4 inches of snow and climb to 5,000 feet you may certainly hit a ridge line with 2 or more feet of the white stuff. Will you camp up there? Did you bring snowshoes? Did you brng a shovel to dig out a tent site? Or are you gonna fall back down the mountain to easier places?

** If you plan on getting the best Miss Nature has to offer, I recommend you take a full-on four season tent with adequate pegs and numerous guylines. This shelter will allow you to go anywhere and set up in any conditions---open bald blizzards, etc. A bombproof tent will really make life easier at exposed campsites in the dead of winter. Learn to put your Trust In Nylon.

Digger'02
12-07-2010, 13:36
i love it.

I also find sunglasses a must and preferably a mask--its uber nice for the cold winds.

tell me more about this "in-tent wood stove" this is something that is new to me. I use candles of course, but a heater stove? Me likey.

wrongway_08
12-07-2010, 13:40
Don't over dress! If you are sweaty while hiking, open up or take off a layer. That sweat will cool you down fast when you stop and can freeze - making it hard for your body to warm back up.

nitewalker
12-07-2010, 14:03
i love it.

I also find sunglasses a must and preferably a mask--its uber nice for the cold winds.

tell me more about this "in-tent wood stove" this is something that is new to me. I use candles of course, but a heater stove? Me likey.

the overkill sleeping bag is the woodstove!!;):D

nitewalker
12-07-2010, 14:14
1. plan proper mileages for winter travel. you would be more apt to run into problems during winter.

2. bring a length of paracord or rope just in case travel becomes icy. depending where you are going to travel the rope could be a sure lifeline.

3. leave your expected route of travel and return times with someone at home.

4.always observe what is above you and around you at all times especially when traversing certain snowfields and lower bowl areas. ice chunks falling and avalanches occuring can hapen at a moments notice.

5. try to get into camp before nitefall. sucks looking for camp at nite during winter, trust me..

6. sleep on the side of the mtn where the sun rises. its nice to get the sun as early as possible for warmth and energy.

these are some of the techniques i like to practice when out during the winter.

The Solemates
12-07-2010, 14:26
eat up before going to bed. even snack through the night if needed. being hungry makes you colder.

Mags
12-07-2010, 14:34
http://www.pmags.com/beginners-winter-backpack

Digger'02
12-07-2010, 15:20
i get it.....a "woodstove"

humunuku
12-07-2010, 18:04
6. sleep on the side of the mtn where the sun rises. its nice to get the sun as early as possible for warmth and energy.



totally agree

Luddite
12-07-2010, 18:09
Eat spicy food. Bring some hot sauce with you and eat high calorie meals before bed. Bring a good sleeping bag and thick sleeping pad(s). Down booties.

10-K
12-07-2010, 18:14
My all time favorite technique regardless of season:

Never step on anything you can step over.

scope
12-07-2010, 18:59
forgot... P bottle

The Cleaner
12-07-2010, 19:31
Anybody take any type of shovel, to clear or level snow for sleeping pad& other uses?:eek:

couscous
12-07-2010, 20:12
".. old reliable and hot burning white gas variety stove. It'll work no matter how cold it gets." -- You need to monitor the condition of your o-ring because at sub-zero temps the o-ring can shrink to where you can't pump up pressure to operate the stove. I've used my alcohol stove to carefully thaw out white gas stoves that got too cold to work.

garlic08
12-07-2010, 20:47
All excellent tips so far. All I'll add is thinking out guys and supports for your shelter, especially in deep snow. One trick I use is bringing along some short lengths of disposable cord to make deadmen out of sticks--dig a shallow trench perpendicular to your guyline, tie a cord around a stick, put stick in trench, bury and stomp. It will freeze in so you'll never get it out, so you'll have to cut and abandon the cord.

When I'm skiing, I carry a rescue shovel, but have never used it for anything other than digging the car out of snow banks. You can achieve a camping platform by stomping around and waiting half hour for the snow to solidify.

In addition to sweat, you have to be careful of moisture building up from breathing. Be sure to breathe outside of your bag, and try to ventilate your shelter enough so it doesn't freeze over too much. I know a guy who got frozen into his tent and had to wait for the sun to hit the zippers so he could go out and pee.

Turtle Feet
12-07-2010, 20:55
".. old reliable and hot burning white gas variety stove. It'll work no matter how cold it gets." -- You need to monitor the condition of your o-ring because at sub-zero temps the o-ring can shrink to where you can't pump up pressure to operate the stove. I've used my alcohol stove to carefully thaw out white gas stoves that got too cold to work.

I haven't had any trouble burning HEET in my alky stove, but only down to the 20's - does anyone know how low it can go?

On the other hand, it's 11 degrees outside at this very moment - I guess I could check it out myself.... :o

tf

garlic08
12-07-2010, 21:00
I haven't had any trouble burning HEET in my alky stove, but only down to the 20's - does anyone know how low it can go?

On the other hand, it's 11 degrees outside at this very moment - I guess I could check it out myself.... :o

tf

I've used my alky stove down to about -20F at an elevation of 11,000'. I was very pleased with it for melting snow, because it takes a long time to prime and it's best to start melting snow with a cooler flame. I wouldn't take it for more than an overnighter if you need to melt snow because of the lower energy density of the fuel. If you have to carry more than 10 oz of fuel, you're better off with white gas.

Turtle Feet
12-07-2010, 21:32
Yep - Heet is good to go, nice hearty flame at 11 degrees. I think I've seen someone with stats regarding the energy density somewhere here on the boards.

Has anyone here had experience with a Caldera Cone?

tf

10-K
12-07-2010, 21:38
I pretty much only use esbit these days but back when I used canisters and alcohol I'd always carry a few esbit tabs to use for fire starters.

So.. my other tip would be to carry a few esbit tabs in addition to whatever other fuel you're using.

bigcranky
12-07-2010, 21:52
+1 on some Esbit tabs for fire starters. If I'm going out for just a weekend, I'll add a good folding saw.

Down booties are a huge help when it gets below the mid-teens or so. They keep my feet warm around camp and in my bag. Don't have to worry about getting them muddy, either, since it's so cold.

A really good winter sleeping bag, and a nice warm pad. A second closed cell foam pad if it's below 15 or so. (Makes a good pad for breaks and lunch, too.)

Two sets of gloves and hats -- a light set for hiking (I like a Powerstretch balaclava, and some light windstopper gloves), and a warmer set for camp and sleeping. Even on the coldest days, my hat and gloves get wet from perspiration. Goretex or eVent overmitts are great, too -- they add a lot of warmth.

Skidsteer
12-07-2010, 22:06
...I know a guy who got frozen into his tent and had to wait for the sun to hit the zippers so he could go out and pee...

And that was the last time you forgot your pee bottle, right? :D

camojack
12-08-2010, 02:43
My absolute favorite technique for camping in Winter is to go someplace warm. :sun
(Like Hawaii, where I'll be camping in about 3 weeks (http://www.hawaiiweb.com/lanai/html/sites/hulopoe_beach.html))

Bronk
12-08-2010, 04:06
Sleep with your hat and gloves on...put your boots in a plastic grocery bag and sleep with them in your sleeping bag...in fact, keep any clothing you plan on wearing in the morning in your sleeping bag...sleep with wet clothing in your bag and it will be dry in the morning...you don't want to put on cold wet clothing in the morning...sleep with your water filter...it will freeze if you don't and either break (as mine did) or you won't be able to use it until it thaws...if it does freeze, hang it around your neck under your shirt and it will be thawed in a couple hours. Do all this and you will wake up warm and have warm dry clothes to change into...your boots won't be frozen...I've heard of people being stranded because their boots were wet when they took them off and they froze into a position where they couldn't be put back on in the morning. Eat something before you go to bed...it will keep you warm. Get up at the crack of dawn...you won't have as many daylight hours in the winter time...and actually, you probably won't have a problem getting up early since you've been in your tent since 6pm with nothing to do in the cold and dark. Get up and get moving...eat a bar on the go and then stop to cook a hot breakfast after an hour once you've got your blood moving and warmed up a bit.

If it rains and then freezes over night the bungie cords in your tent poles will freeze and will no longer be flexible...kinda hard to put your tent up the next night because you'll be trying to stuff the frozen bungie cords into the poles where they connect together. Not much you can do about it, I'm just telling you it happens.

couscous
12-08-2010, 07:38
Has anyone here had experience with a Caldera Cone?
I use a Caldera Cone with a Vargo Ti Lite mug and denatured alcohol. Have been very happy with the combination.

Mags
12-08-2010, 10:44
Winter camping is such a broad term. For me (an I emphasize for me), it is only really winter camping when there is enough snow for skis/snowshoes. Otherwise, it is just camping in colder weather.

Sounds silly perhaps..but when there is not that much snow, my lightweight gear works just fine (if some shoulder season gear is added).

When I did the BMT in mid-February or so, I mentally did not think of it as winter camping.

When I was hiking the AT in snow, I did not think of it as winter camping...ditto for the CDT when I woke up to six inches+ of snow on my tarp.

When I strap on my skis, have negative temps at night (but it is oh-so-toasty warm in a snow cave) and need to melt snow for drinking water, that is really winter camping to me. :)


Anybody take any type of shovel, to clear or level snow for sleeping pad& other uses?:eek:

As with Garlic, my shovel is part of my normal backcountry ski kit. Avalanche danger, in case I need to make a snowcave..and yes, digging my truck out! :)

But, for winter backpacking, I use it to make snow shelters as well. Snow shelters can be elaborate (we made and slept in an igloo one time) or simple (a very quick snowcave). Snowcaves can be very warm , toasty and quite weather proof. I've been comfortable when it was negative temps outside and had to unzip my bag a bit!!!

And why winter backpack?

http://ih1.redbubble.net/work.2456185.2.flat,550x550,075,f.mitchell-lake-winter-sunset.jpg

That's why...

Cookerhiker
12-08-2010, 10:52
So is there a temperature point below which canister stoves are useless or ineffective?

It sounds like the colder it is, the better off you are using white gas?

chelko
12-08-2010, 11:07
I hate putting on a wet hiking shirt and pants in the morning. When I get to camp I change into my underarmour cold gear then put my wet hiking clothes back on followed by my fleece jacket and pants and then an outer shell layer if needed. This dries out my hiking clothes rather quickly. I don't like putting them in my bag as mentioned in an earlier post because i toss and turn alot and end up all tangled.

Tipi Walter
12-08-2010, 14:32
Don't let Mags and his definition of winter camping in Colorado lessen the gravity and impact of winter camping in the Appalachians. He may think only certain places out west get "real winters" but I can say that we get winter conditions just as cold and challenging here in the mountains of TN and NC. And anything over 5,000 feet in elevation here will commonly see -10F to -20F with several feet of snow. Last winter was a good example of difficult winter backpacking conditions along the high mountain ridges. Some southern App fotogs follow and depict a small portion of winter conditions available to Southeast backpackers.

In Jan '85 we got -30F in Boone, NC, and during the Blizzard of '93 the mountains were covered in many feet of snow with high winds. A couple years ago Grandfather Mt in NC had a windspeed of over 200 mph. But it's not a testosterone contest on who gets the worst, it's more about getting frequent winter bag nights in all conditions---and we get winter here, too.

http://www.trailspace.com/assets/6/f/c/9980/Trip-103-242.jpg


http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/5046/tj5046%5F052307%5F132421%5F220963.jpg



http://www.trailspace.com/assets/2/2/5/12837/trip-90-116.jpg


http://www.trailspace.com/assets/9/1/3/14611/TRIP-106-240.jpg


http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/4861/tj4861%5F102706%5F062307%5F191414.jpg


http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/4861/tj4861%5F102706%5F062854%5F191416.jpg

Mags
12-08-2010, 14:45
Walter, no need to obfuscate the issue.

Did I mention any place where winter can/not happen? Think someone is feeling the need to pump their chest a bit. ;)


I don't care where the conditions may be located, if there is that much snow on the ground and that cold of temps...that seems like winter to me. Your photos make me want to grab skis....and that's a good thing!

If it is mid-teens at night and no snow, does not seem like winter to me :)

I don't care where you are. Those are my own personal definitions.

Did I mention for me? :)

Being simple minded, but I like to keep it simple.

LoneRidgeRunner
12-08-2010, 17:24
This is gonna sound like overkill, but it has really improved my winter backpacking and camping life: Get a Feathered Friends Icefall down parka and a pair of WMountaineering down pants!! I even use down booties sometimes.

Some other tricks:
** Get several 3 hour candles and light one for in-tent hand warming when sitting up on your pad reading or writing. It's all about Hands and Feet.

** Have an overkill -15F or -25F down bag and depend on it as your lifeline and in-tent woodstove---it's the main thing keeping you alive.

** Don't scrimp on flimsy or inadequate sleeping pads---get whatever will keep you off the ground and warm with at least an R value of 5. Hint: Exped downmat at 8R. Nice.

** Long nights help with books, radio, keeping a journal, eating. Carry a couple books and burn them thru the trip. Why not? Cheap books can be found almost anywhere. Or copy a bunch of stuff off the interweb and take them out to read and burn, etc.

** When it's -10F you can fill your cooking pot with water from the creek the night before and in the morning get up, fire the stove and melt and boil the water. Water filters are useless in deep cold so you'll be using a bunch more stove fuel---take extra. And stick with the old reliable and hot burning white gas variety stove. It'll work no matter how cold it gets.

** Hot water bottles are nice to have when packing up in the morning as your fingers will be really hurting but before you shove off you can instantly warm them with one of those hot bottles. Uses alot of fuel, though.

** For in-tent overnight water storage I bring in the boots, put a glove over the top of my full water bottle, place bottle in a boot and cover and wrap the entire boot and bottle with my down parka right before going to sleep. You can also place your camera and camera batteries in the parka, too. I never put a full bottle of water inside my sleeping bag with me as anything could leak---disaster. Forget about using water bladders when it's zero or below. Tubes freeze up.

** Be prepared for changing conditions. When you start out at 2,000 feet with 4 inches of snow and climb to 5,000 feet you may certainly hit a ridge line with 2 or more feet of the white stuff. Will you camp up there? Did you bring snowshoes? Did you brng a shovel to dig out a tent site? Or are you gonna fall back down the mountain to easier places?

** If you plan on getting the best Miss Nature has to offer, I recommend you take a full-on four season tent with adequate pegs and numerous guylines. This shelter will allow you to go anywhere and set up in any conditions---open bald blizzards, etc. A bombproof tent will really make life easier at exposed campsites in the dead of winter. Learn to put your Trust In Nylon.

This certainly shoots down all this I read on here about tarp camping and carrying a total of 30 pounds on a thru hike when and where you could encounter temps near or below 0 and wind chills as low as 20 or 30 below 0.....I will NEVER listen to any of that "all you need is a tarp and 30 degree bag and wear your one pair of drawers and one wicking tee shirt for 6 months" that I see being preached on here. Your post is really one of the few really sensible ones I've read yet... I have no intentions of hiking all day only to freeze my as* off all night because I only carried a 30 pound pack including food.. I hope not too many people take that seriously...and only duct tape for first aid? get real people....do you really wanta die from an infection to save 4 ounces of weight in your pack?

Tipi Walter
12-08-2010, 20:13
This certainly shoots down all this I read on here about tarp camping and carrying a total of 30 pounds on a thru hike when and where you could encounter temps near or below 0 and wind chills as low as 20 or 30 below 0.....I will NEVER listen to any of that "all you need is a tarp and 30 degree bag and wear your one pair of drawers and one wicking tee shirt for 6 months" that I see being preached on here. Your post is really one of the few really sensible ones I've read yet... I have no intentions of hiking all day only to freeze my as* off all night because I only carried a 30 pound pack including food.. I hope not too many people take that seriously...and only duct tape for first aid? get real people....do you really wanta die from an infection to save 4 ounces of weight in your pack?

If you read thru many Trail Journals that are posted online, you will find a small group of thruhikers who start in December and January. Most of them do okay and keep at it until a real storm hits, with temps in the single digits, zero, or below. And then you find them getting off the trail to the closest town to zero out the rough conditions. Why?

I think the main reason is their unwillingness to carry the extra weight in garments, bags, pads and sometimes shelters to stay out and not bail. Bailing is a common occurrence for many winter backpackers and it seems the main reason has to do with too little weight(or carrying the gear needed to stay comfortable).

The thing is, many backpackers on the AT will not encounter conditions that require beefy winter gear like a four season tent or an Icefall parka or an Exped Downmat. At least not for the time they are out. But if they stay out long enough and at high enough elevations, well, it's a different story. Especially when that kick-butt winter storm comes in and gets everybody off the trail and scurrying into Gatlinburg or Hot Springs.

garlic08
12-09-2010, 00:01
This thread started out as a pretty decent, constructive discussion on winter camping techniques. Why did it suddenly deteriorate into the usual argument about gear?

Gear is useless without experience and good techniques. If you carry forty pounds of the very best down and leather and nylon and get it soaked with snow and condensed perspiration and respiration the first night, you bail out at Gatlinburg.

If you're out in a late season storm on your thru hike in running shoes, a light jacket and a tarp, and you know how to keep all your insulation dry except maybe one pair of socks (which is dry the next morning) and you know how to eat and drink well, you keep hiking. And you shake your head in wonder at how someone with forty pounds of gear and leather boots can get frostbitten feet and have to leave the trail because they didn't know how to keep a pair of socks dry.

For sure, an experienced person with a ton of gear will wonder at the inexperienced person with a light load caught out in bad weather, flailing around helplessly and sure, that happens too. My point is that the gear alone does not dictate the result.

Tom Murphy
12-09-2010, 00:15
You can certainly apply UL concepts to winter backpacking but, at the end of the day, your winter pack weight is going to be considerably heavier than your 3 season pack weight.

Misjudge your sleep system in the summer and you have a long night.

Misjudge your sleep system in a New England winter & your fire building skills better be up to snuff.....

MotherShip
12-09-2010, 02:57
Great info. I was on top of Mt Rogers last month with our first snow storm and your info is needed when camping in the snow/cold conditions. Take care when out there in the snow. It's beautiful but can be difficult. When trying a winter camping trip start close to car so you can hike out if need be. I hiked out in the dark last month. It was scary but taught me alot about the area and myself.

LoneRidgeRunner
12-09-2010, 07:13
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This thread started out as a pretty decent, constructive discussion on winter camping techniques. Why did it suddenly deteriorate into the usual argument about gear?

Gear is useless without experience and good techniques. If you carry forty pounds of the very best down and leather and nylon and get it soaked with snow and condensed perspiration and respiration the first night, you bail out at Gatlinburg.

If you're out in a late season storm on your thru hike in running shoes, a light jacket and a tarp, and you know how to keep all your insulation dry except maybe one pair of socks (which is dry the next morning) and you know how to eat and drink well, you keep hiking. And you shake your head in wonder at how someone with forty pounds of gear and leather boots can get frostbitten feet and have to leave the trail because they didn't know how to keep a pair of socks dry.

For sure, an experienced person with a ton of gear will wonder at the inexperienced person with a light load caught out in bad weather, flailing around helplessly and sure, that happens too. My point is that the gear alone does not dictate the result.


You can certainly apply UL concepts to winter backpacking but, at the end of the day, your winter pack weight is going to be considerably heavier than your 3 season pack weight.

Misjudge your sleep system in the summer and you have a long night.

Misjudge your sleep system in a New England winter & your fire building skills better be up to snuff.....

Garlic...It seems odd to me that every time someone doesn't have the same opinions as someone else..it's an "argument"...LOL...

Tom..Well said....

Tipi Walter
12-09-2010, 09:20
Great info. I was on top of Mt Rogers last month with our first snow storm and your info is needed when camping in the snow/cold conditions. Take care when out there in the snow. It's beautiful but can be difficult. When trying a winter camping trip start close to car so you can hike out if need be. I hiked out in the dark last month. It was scary but taught me alot about the area and myself.

Grayson Highlands/Mt Rogers is one perfect place to get your winter camping chops either down or blown away entirely. It's the perfect place to do a two week trip in January and see a Southeast winter in action. It's got the three main components to winter backpacking: Severe cold, high winds, and frequent snows. And Wilburn Ridge is fantastic.

As far as parking goes, either at Mt Rogers or anywhere else, you know you've had a good winter experience when you end your trip by having to hitchhike out because the roads are "impassable." Most of my trips are started by getting dropped off by my GF who will meet me a couple weeks later at some evac point. Trouble is, two weeks later and the roads are snowed-over and dangerous. We always have the same policy: Do not come get me if the roads are bad, I'll hitch out. Last year I had to do this twice. But here's the thing: The worst the roads are and the more snow that falls(within reason), the easier it is to hitch a ride because there's always a handful of SUV types who love to come out and drive the snowy roads---and they are all in very good spirits and will give people rides. Winter wonderlands make people giddy.

garlic08
12-09-2010, 09:37
Grayson Highlands/Mt Rogers is one perfect place to get your winter camping chops either down or blown away entirely. It's the perfect place to do a two week trip in January and see a Southeast winter in action. It's got the three main components to winter backpacking: Severe cold, high winds, and frequent snows. And Wilburn Ridge is fantastic.

This is something we agree on 100%. Even in April I was nearly blown away by a winter storm that was right at the edge of my experience, even compared to winter above treeline in Colorado. I could squint my eyes and imagine the Continental Divide at 13,000' in a blizzard. I will never underestimate Appalachian weather.

kayak karl
12-09-2010, 09:51
Grayson Highlands/Mt Rogers is one perfect place to get your winter camping chops either down or blown away entirely. It's the perfect place to do a two week trip in January and see a Southeast winter in action. It's got the three main components to winter backpacking: Severe cold, high winds, and frequent snows. And Wilburn Ridge is fantastic.

As far as parking goes, either at Mt Rogers or anywhere else, you know you've had a good winter experience when you end your trip by having to hitchhike out because the roads are "impassable." Most of my trips are started by getting dropped off by my GF who will meet me a couple weeks later at some evac point. Trouble is, two weeks later and the roads are snowed-over and dangerous. We always have the same policy: Do not come get me if the roads are bad, I'll hitch out. Last year I had to do this twice. But here's the thing: The worst the roads are and the more snow that falls(within reason), the easier it is to hitch a ride because there's always a handful of SUV types who love to come out and drive the snowy roads---and they are all in very good spirits and will give people rides. Winter wonderlands make people giddy.

i agree tipi. you gave me a lot of good advice and it really paid off in this area in jan-feb. its also easy (if roads allow) to get shuttled in or out of this area.

Wise Old Owl
12-09-2010, 10:00
Knowing when not to camp and hike.

nitewalker
12-09-2010, 10:36
1. fold up some newspaper at home and stuff that into the pouch along the back pad of the pack, keep dry. good fire starter in an emergency if needed..

2. kepp a small ziplock of dry twigs to add onto the newspaper to get the fire going if needed and in the rite emergency situation..

3. charge up a spare battery for backup for your cell..

4. BRING A MAP AND COMPASS

5. short frequent breaks to avoid sweating[more than a summer hike]

6. power up with energy snakcks thruout the day. minimizes need for bigger cooked meals.

7. bring crampons and poles or ice axe , they are a must during the winter up here in the north east.

8. watch out where you set your tent up. avalanche zones are a no no. stay away from steep areas with snow overhangs[cornices]. if they let go you could be in trouble. it hapened to two hikers on mt washington one time and they both died.[monroe cooper and derek lattay ?] i could have the names and story mixed up but it did hapen[not without peril].

9. make smart decisions if the trip has the potential to become really extreme really fast..

10. before the trip starts you must go on whiteblaze.net and run the gauntlet with all its members. give em your info and get a whirlwind of responses from the group...:D gotta love it:D

Mags
12-09-2010, 10:40
Why did it suddenly deteriorate into the usual argument about gear?




Because most people don't spend time outdoors..but collect gear instead. ;)

Did I say that out loud? :D

(Morning coffee kicking in...then that work thing starts...Sigh)

tzbrown
12-09-2010, 11:15
This thread started out as a pretty decent, constructive discussion on winter camping techniques. Why did it suddenly deteriorate into the usual argument about gear?

Gear is useless without experience and good techniques. If you carry forty pounds of the very best down and leather and nylon and get it soaked with snow and condensed perspiration and respiration the first night, you bail out at Gatlinburg.

If you're out in a late season storm on your thru hike in running shoes, a light jacket and a tarp, and you know how to keep all your insulation dry except maybe one pair of socks (which is dry the next morning) and you know how to eat and drink well, you keep hiking. And you shake your head in wonder at how someone with forty pounds of gear and leather boots can get frostbitten feet and have to leave the trail because they didn't know how to keep a pair of socks dry.

For sure, an experienced person with a ton of gear will wonder at the inexperienced person with a light load caught out in bad weather, flailing around helplessly and sure, that happens too. My point is that the gear alone does not dictate the result.


Because most people don't spend time outdoors..but collect gear instead. ;)

Did I say that out loud? :D

(Morning coffee kicking in...then that work thing starts...Sigh)

The best posts so far today. :)

In the end winter, or cold weather camping and travel is more about knowledge than about gear.

Learnin what works for you may not work for others.

TZ

Tipi Walter
12-09-2010, 12:07
The best posts so far today. :)

In the end winter, or cold weather camping and travel is more about knowledge than about gear.

Learnin what works for you may not work for others.

TZ

The inverse may also be true, that the more knowledge and experience a backpacker has, the more valued and important is his gear. Of course this really applies in the winter. The newbie days of cowboy camping under a foot of snow in a blizzard can be experienced and recorded and then you can move on to a better way of doing things---or a more comfortable way to stay out longer in winter. Learning what works for a person is an evolution and changes as gear is sorted and refined and tested in extreme conditions.

There will always be talk of gear when humans go into extreme environments, unless they are pulling somesort of emergency K2 bivouac at 27,000 feet---but then we've crossed over from a backpacking or mountaineering adventure into a survival scenario. Short of that, winter backpackers will for good reason be justly concerned with a few very important pieces of gear: Sleeping bag and pad, shelter, clothing and boots.

To think that knowledge trumps gear is one way to put yourself into a Survival situation---you know, going out with a knife and a piece of tyvek, the stuff that's bandied about on the many survivor TV shows: Dual Survival, Man Woman Wild, Man vs Wild, Survivorman, etc. But you know, when you study mountaineers doing alpine ascents, you see people heavily committed and dependent on a variety of critical gear to stay alive, with tents and sleeping bags being two such important items.

Winter backpackers here in the mountains of NC and TN(or Colorado for that matter)can learn alot from not only the mindset and knowledge of these mountaineers, but also from the gear they use. Why? Because they face high winds, spindrift, deep snow and severe cold on a regular basis. What works for them? We don't need oxygen bottles or climbing ropes or even crampons, but we should take an interested look at their bags and pads and clothing and shelters, because every once in a while we are going to see similar conditions.

Wags
12-09-2010, 12:07
6. sleep on the side of the mtn where the sun rises. its nice to get the sun as early as possible for warmth and energy.


i really like that one

dgaf169
12-09-2010, 14:45
For me it is simple....

1.) Throughout the day when you need to stop have your jacket in a place where you can easily reach it. Put it on as SOON as you stop. Keep breaks under 15 min.

2.) When you get to camp put on dry clothes ASAP!

3.) Set up camp while cooking to maintain your body heat.

4.) Eat and drink something warm...coffee,tea, hot chocolate

5.) Get in your sleeping bag.

6.) Watch everyone else be cold.

In the morning to break down camp I...

1.)Make hot breakfast

2.) put my wet clothes and boots back on, its pretty uncomfortable but they will warm up it will just take a little while

3.) Finish packing

4.) Start moving!!!!!

Ive done a good bit of winter camping, never done the whole pee bottle thing...im afraid i might miss. I use a trangia alcohol stove, i fill it before i go to bed put the cap on and sleep with it in the morning it lights right up. I also agree that you should not skimp on a sleeping bag or sleeping pad they both will make a huge difference in how enjoyable your hike is. IMO if water is easily available just dump ur bottles the night before and get more water in the AM. Melting ice will use up a good deal of fuel. If water is not easily available i would suggest sleeping with your water bottles NEXT to you. on my thru i put my water bottle in my bag and it leaked...it was 12 degrees made for a very cold night. luckely i got to a hostel the night day and was able to dry my bag out. if not for that hostel that could have been a fatal situation as the high for the next day was only 19.

Tom Murphy
12-09-2010, 14:52
IMO the skills vs gear disagreements between pack mules and gram weenies are even worse when we start talking about winter backpacking.

We all recognize that camping in the winter has extra challenges and, depending on what tribe we belong to, we look at those challenges through that bias.

And to be fair, we also need to identify what we mean by winter backpacking, because starting a NoBo AT thru in Jan is lot different than backpacking in Baxter.

For example, I can sigificantly reduce my winter pack weight by choosing valley trails like Hancock Notch over an above treeline trail like a Bonds traverse.

On the former, I don't need double plastics, axe, or crampons & I use my 3 season tent. A ton of weight right there.

Mags
12-09-2010, 15:36
We don't need oxygen bottles or climbing ropes or even crampons\.


:D


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs143.ash2/40493_459113435020_563440020_6695522_1588998_n.jpg

LoneRidgeRunner
12-09-2010, 15:59
All excellent tips so far. All I'll add is thinking out guys and supports for your shelter, especially in deep snow. One trick I use is bringing along some short lengths of disposable cord to make deadmen out of sticks--dig a shallow trench perpendicular to your guyline, tie a cord around a stick, put stick in trench, bury and stomp. It will freeze in so you'll never get it out, so you'll have to cut and abandon the cord.

When I'm skiing, I carry a rescue shovel, but have never used it for anything other than digging the car out of snow banks. You can achieve a camping platform by stomping around and waiting half hour for the snow to solidify.

In addition to sweat, you have to be careful of moisture building up from breathing. Be sure to breathe outside of your bag, and try to ventilate your shelter enough so it doesn't freeze over too much. I know a guy who got frozen into his tent and had to wait for the sun to hit the zippers so he could go out and pee.

Just a thought on the dead man anchor technique..I've never tried this and just thought of it and am wondering if any one else has tried and if it works or not. Maybe instead of tying the cord around the stick and then cutting it later..possible just go around the sticks, then back to the tent guy out loop and tie it there? Then just untie when it's time to break camp and pull it out that way? That would save carrying extra cord and leaving some behind IF it could be pulled out....Anyone tried this?
I also learned the hard way about ventilating when I closed my tent up completely on a very cold night in Joyce Kilmer Wilderness. Of course all my breath froze into a sheet of ice inside my tent..then when the sun warmed it up next morning it began to "rain" inside my 4 season tent as the ice melted...
After that I open every possible venting spot on my tent and don't get nearly as much ice build up inside.

Tinker
12-09-2010, 16:08
I can pass on a couple of tips I learned over the years:
1) Use a hot water bottle to sleep warmer (my current bottle for winter use is a 40 oz. Kleen Canteen). I heat the water by the fire (plastic top off, of course) until it is just beginning to boil. I then put it in an insulated holder I carry it in during the day to keep the water from freezing and take it to bed with me. Smaller bottles may be placed inside wet boots to help dry them.
2) In an emergency, when your clothing is either wet or insufficient to keep you warm, you can take your sleeping pad and wrap it around your torso (you'll probably have to stick it into your pants as few people have a waist to armpit length of over 20"). That's free insulation that you have to carry anyway for nighttime use.

LoneRidgeRunner
12-09-2010, 16:10
Originally Posted by tzbrown http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1077576#post1077576)
The best posts so far today. :)

In the end winter, or cold weather camping and travel is more about knowledge than about gear.

Learnin what works for you may not work for others.

TZ


The inverse may also be true, that the more knowledge and experience a backpacker has, the more valued and important is his gear. Of course this really applies in the winter. The newbie days of cowboy camping under a foot of snow in a blizzard can be experienced and recorded and then you can move on to a better way of doing things---or a more comfortable way to stay out longer in winter. Learning what works for a person is an evolution and changes as gear is sorted and refined and tested in extreme conditions.

There will always be talk of gear when humans go into extreme environments, unless they are pulling somesort of emergency K2 bivouac at 27,000 feet---but then we've crossed over from a backpacking or mountaineering adventure into a survival scenario. Short of that, winter backpackers will for good reason be justly concerned with a few very important pieces of gear: Sleeping bag and pad, shelter, clothing and boots.

To think that knowledge trumps gear is one way to put yourself into a Survival situation---you know, going out with a knife and a piece of tyvek, the stuff that's bandied about on the many survivor TV shows: Dual Survival, Man Woman Wild, Man vs Wild, Survivorman, etc. But you know, when you study mountaineers doing alpine ascents, you see people heavily committed and dependent on a variety of critical gear to stay alive, with tents and sleeping bags being two such important items.

Winter backpackers here in the mountains of NC and TN(or Colorado for that matter)can learn alot from not only the mindset and knowledge of these mountaineers, but also from the gear they use. Why? Because they face high winds, spindrift, deep snow and severe cold on a regular basis. What works for them? We don't need oxygen bottles or climbing ropes or even crampons, but we should take an interested look at their bags and pads and clothing and shelters, because every once in a while we are going to see similar conditions.

Well put Tipi......Believe it or not..this time I have nothing to add as it could not have been said any better...

tzbrown
12-09-2010, 16:48
The inverse may also be true, that the more knowledge and experience a backpacker has, the more valued and important is his gear. Of course this really applies in the winter. The newbie days of cowboy camping under a foot of snow in a blizzard can be experienced and recorded and then you can move on to a better way of doing things---or a more comfortable way to stay out longer in winter. Learning what works for a person is an evolution and changes as gear is sorted and refined and tested in extreme conditions.

There will always be talk of gear when humans go into extreme environments, unless they are pulling somesort of emergency K2 bivouac at 27,000 feet---but then we've crossed over from a backpacking or mountaineering adventure into a survival scenario. Short of that, winter backpackers will for good reason be justly concerned with a few very important pieces of gear: Sleeping bag and pad, shelter, clothing and boots.

To think that knowledge trumps gear is one way to put yourself into a Survival situation---you know, going out with a knife and a piece of tyvek, the stuff that's bandied about on the many survivor TV shows: Dual Survival, Man Woman Wild, Man vs Wild, Survivorman, etc. But you know, when you study mountaineers doing alpine ascents, you see people heavily committed and dependent on a variety of critical gear to stay alive, with tents and sleeping bags being two such important items.

Winter backpackers here in the mountains of NC and TN(or Colorado for that matter)can learn alot from not only the mindset and knowledge of these mountaineers, but also from the gear they use. Why? Because they face high winds, spindrift, deep snow and severe cold on a regular basis. What works for them? We don't need oxygen bottles or climbing ropes or even crampons, but we should take an interested look at their bags and pads and clothing and shelters, because every once in a while we are going to see similar conditions.


Fully Agree with all of that, very well stated.
Research, and use all of the information available, to make your choices and know how to use what you have.

Don't count on a rescue, carrying a PLB, or SPOT, may not save you. Don't be to macho to accept a plan "B" and retreat if necessary.

Start your cold weather adventures where you have an option to bail out, if it gets to bad, or you find yourself not prepared. As you gain skills you will gain confidence and be able to extend your range.

Plan and prepare well, but, if you are caught without something have the knowledge to improvise and still have an enjoyable experience.

TZ

Digger'02
12-09-2010, 17:45
One point that hasnt been mentioned is to avoid leaving anything out that may get covered in snow and thus lost. I made the mistake with a TP bag a few years ago and was forced to....well....

Good point on the trip planning manage your bail outs if you can so after an assesment you have options. My boys and I have been hiking on MLK day (mid jan) for a few years now, 2 years ago at Mt Rodgers it was -10 and 18-30inches of snow. FUN. This year its going to be the Art Loeb Trail. Above 6,000 and exposed. Itll be fun, but it will be a nice test as well.

Wilson
12-09-2010, 17:49
:D


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs143.ash2/40493_459113435020_563440020_6695522_1588998_n.jpg
That looks like a lot of trouble just to take a dump.

garlic08
12-09-2010, 17:54
Fully Agree with all of that, very well stated.TZ

Ditto this, Tipi--good argument and point taken.

garlic08
12-09-2010, 18:02
Just a thought on the dead man anchor technique..I've never tried this and just thought of it and am wondering if any one else has tried and if it works or not. Maybe instead of tying the cord around the stick and then cutting it later..possible just go around the sticks, then back to the tent guy out loop and tie it there? Then just untie when it's time to break camp and pull it out that way? That would save carrying extra cord and leaving some behind IF it could be pulled out....Anyone tried this?

Good thought, but it hasn't worked in the conditions I've tried it. I use natural hemp twine, which is very rough (and at least has a chance of breaking down in our lifetimes). Maybe if you used paracord or similar it would pull out, depending on the moisture content and compaction of the snow, as well as overnight temps.

WILLIAM HAYES
12-09-2010, 20:04
when I hiked the smokies several years ago in very tough winter conditions (pictures in gallery) I carried a 15 degree down bag, down jacket, midweight woolies top and bottom and layered accordingly for the conditions make sure you sleep in dry clothes and socks-and a skull cap- turn your nalgene bottles upside down in their holders eat something right before you turn in to generate caloric heat- put your boots in a plastic bag and inside your bag at night -i also heated water in my nalgene bottles and put them inside socks inside my bag-big lesson is not to overheat while you hike and make sure you change into dry socks when you turn in

10-K
12-09-2010, 21:16
So I guess this can be condensed down to the following?

Have the gear you need for your experience level.

LoneRidgeRunner
12-09-2010, 21:53
Originally Posted by LoneRidgeRunner http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1077677#post1077677)
Just a thought on the dead man anchor technique..I've never tried this and just thought of it and am wondering if any one else has tried and if it works or not. Maybe instead of tying the cord around the stick and then cutting it later..possible just go around the sticks, then back to the tent guy out loop and tie it there? Then just untie when it's time to break camp and pull it out that way? That would save carrying extra cord and leaving some behind IF it could be pulled out....Anyone tried this?


Good thought, but it hasn't worked in the conditions I've tried it. I use natural hemp twine, which is very rough (and at least has a chance of breaking down in our lifetimes). Maybe if you used paracord or similar it would pull out, depending on the moisture content and compaction of the snow, as well as overnight temps.

Thanks Garlic..so apparently you have tried it that way....This is what I like about the whiteblaze forums..so much little things that add up to a great deal can be learned here

Tipi Walter
12-09-2010, 21:55
So I guess this can be condensed down to the following?

Have the gear you need for your experience level.

I've condensed it down to this: It's all about Hands and Feet.

J5man
12-09-2010, 22:48
Tipi, which down pants do you use? the WM Flash or Flight?

BTW, everyone else, I have learned a lot about keeping warm in the winter from Tipi! He spends more time out hiking in the winter than most of us do all year combined!

Mags
12-09-2010, 23:06
That looks like a lot of trouble just to take a dump.

http://www.trdparts4u.com/ProdImages/298010%20WAG-BAG-Individual.jpg

:sun

Wilson
12-09-2010, 23:35
http://www.trdparts4u.com/ProdImages/298010%20WAG-BAG-Individual.jpg

:sun
NOW you show me, after I just bought 200 feet of climbing rope.:o

kayak karl
12-09-2010, 23:40
stay warm, stay dry, stay fed and hydrated.

Tipi Walter
12-10-2010, 00:25
Tipi, which down pants do you use? the WM Flash or Flight?

I have the heavier pair, the Flight I think.

J5man
12-10-2010, 13:49
I have the heavier pair, the Flight I think.

heck with those things, you could actually have on only your skivvies underneath and survive an overnight on Mt. Everest!

Bare Bear
12-10-2010, 14:51
Winter hike in Florida where it is 73F today....

Gray Blazer
12-10-2010, 15:04
Winter hike in Florida where it is 73F today....

Set up on Clearwater Beach.

Mizirlou
12-10-2010, 15:36
:rolleyes: No hiking, no camping. Hulk Hogan and other like-minded property owners would object. Go to Isla Mujeres.:sun

mkmangold
12-10-2010, 22:45
I've been cursed with Raynaud's so those chemical feet/hand warmers come in handy, no pun intended.
Sleep in the same sleeping bag with someone else.
After you go, keep your leakproof pee bottle with you in the sleeping bag to reclaim your body heat.
A silk bagliner seems flimsy but the point is to create another layer of trapped air between you and the weather.
If you get cold, move.
I wear Head gloves underneath wool-lined deerskin mittens. The mittens can always be removed if you get too warm and as needed for finer manipulations.

Lilred
12-10-2010, 22:56
What are your tricks for making camping fun below freezing and beyond? Yes, the boiling water in a nalgene in a sock, the hand warmer in the boot at night, the warming of the fuel bottle, old grandad,....anything else?

The RV and the space heater???

Tipi Walter
12-10-2010, 23:28
This is a pertinent thread on winter camping now that a storm is coming in for this weekend. Lows around K'ville are supposed to be somewhere around 7F. This means around -5F up on the high ground. Hope to see you guys out there.

ShaneP
12-11-2010, 09:34
Get the toe warmers that are semi circles with adhesive on one side and stick them on your undershirt in your armpits. A pack comes with two, one for each pit. A lot of blood flows through your armpits and will be further warmed by the pads and transport the warmth to the rest of your body. You'll forget they are there.

The most exposed blood flow on your body is at the tops of your feet, your wrists, and your temples. keep those places covered warm and dry.

I still sometimes use my solid fuel stick red velvet case handwarmer. remember those?


S

J5man
12-12-2010, 00:04
This is a pertinent thread on winter camping now that a storm is coming in for this weekend. Lows around K'ville are supposed to be somewhere around 7F. This means around -5F up on the high ground. Hope to see you guys out there.

I think we may get some cold weather in the Roanoke Valley in the next few days. I will be deer hunting on Wednesday and Saturday. Looks like it will be my coldest days out this year! I would like to get out and do more winter backpacking this year too. Have fun if you go out this next week.........and watch out for those crazy deer hunters!

ec.hiker
12-12-2010, 01:03
At what temperature does propane/butane quit working?

ShaneP
12-12-2010, 01:53
At what temperature does propane/butane quit working?


This is a combination of altitude, temperature, and canister fullness.

The higher the altitude, the lower the temperature, the emptier the canister, all conspire against you.

Seems to me a half full can of all season gas will lose its ability to boil water at 3k ft and 20 degrees. Gets worse higher than that, emptier than that, and colder than that. In any combination.

S

4eyedbuzzard
12-12-2010, 02:21
Actually, higher altitude itself works in your favor as less canister gas pressure is needed to overcome the lower atmospheric pressure. But the lower temps that generally come with higher altitude hurt. Biggest thing is to warm the canister with body heat by putting it inside your insulation layer, be it jacket or sleeping bag, prior to using it so it can vaporize the fuel. The more you use a cannister when temps are below freezing, the more of the propane in the butane/propane mixture gets burned as it is the liquid vaporizing and supplying the pressure. The butane part, which is the majority of the fuel, doesn't vaporize, and eventually you can be left with a partially full canister of butane that won't work in cold temps without a lot of prewarming. A full windscreen that reflects / contains some of the stove heat and helps keep the canister warm helps as well.

FWIW though, they use canister stoves in the high camps on most mountaineering expeditions, so it can be done with proper technique.

jlb2012
12-12-2010, 09:54
assuming one has some liquid water available and a larger zip lock bag - put the canister in the zip lock bag and roll the top down so it is out of the way then pour in a few ounces of water - this keeps the canister at 32 deg F and acts as a heat source for vaporizing the fuel

also works with other containers like a plastic bowl to hold the water and canister but the zip lock is easier to carry

Digger'02
12-13-2010, 12:05
assuming one has some liquid water available and a larger zip lock bag - put the canister in the zip lock bag and roll the top down so it is out of the way then pour in a few ounces of water - this keeps the canister at 32 deg F and acts as a heat source for vaporizing the fuel

also works with other containers like a plastic bowl to hold the water and canister but the zip lock is easier to carry


This is great. Anyone else try this one? Is 32 degrees enough to make a difference? I am impressed.

Tom Murphy
12-16-2010, 13:24
What are your tricks for making camping fun below freezing and beyond?

After you know how to winter camp, the two toughest things are the long nights and breaking camp in the morning.

Tricks for more fun at night

Bring a friend to talk to.

If allowed, build a campfire.

If full moon, do some night time snow shoeing.

Bring a book to read.

Bring a radio to listen to.

Do not go to sleep before 9 pm.

Tricks for more fun in the morning

Bring your down parka into sleeping bag to warm it up.

Sit in your bag and think through the packing process [make a plan of attack] so you don't waste time.

Have something "ready to eat" food handy so you can add fuel to your metabolism before getting out of the sleeping bag to start boiling water.

Get back in your bag or go for a quick hike while the water is boiling.

Prepare a hot drink for a noon time treat.

Dkeener
12-16-2010, 17:51
Don't eat yellow snow!

Use a P bottle and relieve yourself as soon as necessary. No sense heating a pint of P you're going to eliminate anyway.

I use round nalgenes for water and a square rubbermaid bottle for P. You don't want to mix them in the dark.


Dennis