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saimyoji
12-18-2004, 15:00
We've seen all the different opinions on having dogs on the trail. I've suggested that dogs and owners must be trained. Some have replied that they have trained dogs for use on the trail. Maybe we could get some info up here about exactly what training dogs need, how to do it successfully and advice for these people while hiking with their four-legged companions.

I'm not a dog owner and know nothing about training dogs, just thought it might be better to educate these people, rather than just whine about their behavior.

snarbles
12-18-2004, 15:19
I live hear in Houston and we go to an expert trainer near where I live. Place is called My Dog and Me (http://www.thinklikeadog.com/mdm/home.asp) There not cheap, but you get what pay for. Overall they are focusing more on training the owner over the dog.....that's the hard part. It takes alot of time, energy, and dedication to do it correctly.

Bloodroot
12-18-2004, 15:46
Saimyoji-

I also agree that the owner must be trained as well as the dog (I actually quoted this in "Dog Poll" thread).

Here's is my reasoning though-

I was primarily placing the emphasis of your quote on the owner. The owner needs to respect all the things I mentioned. He is the liability, not the dog.

If the owner sends the dog off for training, obiediance school, etc., that's the owner's choice. But I feel these simple rules can be followed without sending the dog off to training. These are the simple things that an owner can train a dog with "time, energy, and dedication" on their own time.

Panama Red
12-18-2004, 16:43
this may be off topic but i have found the best way to train a dog to wear a pack and hike is to set him up with a back pack full of cold beer and call him when your thirsty, wait are we talking about being a hiker or a waiter?

FatMan
12-18-2004, 16:45
I am in the process of training my pup, Cooper, for the trail.

We, of course, are doing the obedience training thing but that doesn't do much for the trail. The way to train your dog for the trail is to start young and spend lots of time on the trail training him. You can't train a trail dog from home. You have to have the distractions common to the trail.

Not a week goes by where Cooper is not on some sort of trail for work. In fact we just got back from a 6 mile hike on the trail around Stone Mountain. Lots of people, water, other dogs, squirrels, and other distractions. It is a great place for training.

But you also have to train for terrain. The dog needs to be develop trail legs (trail feet toughness) just as we do. We get out to the mountains about every other week or so.

Cooper is being trained "on leash" and "off leash". He currently is doing well with both. I've read the posts saying dogs need to be leashed 100% of the time. That is not reality. In fact, in many places it is simply dangerous. Tough terrain requires both the dog and the owner to be free of restaints. A trail dog knows how to behave off leash. BTW, most trails have no leash requirement. I'm not saying that is bad or good. Just stating fact. The majority of the AT has no leash requirement as well.

There are no magic wands for training a trail dog. It takes time, patience, and more time. Cooper is now 7 months old and has probably hiked a couple hundred miles of trails. He has overnighted at several public campgrounds but not yet on the trail. That will begin in the spring. By the time he is 18 months old I expect him to be a pro. I can assure all the naysayers that they will not have to worry about this pup.

I encourage anyone who has an interest in hiking with their dog to take it very seriously. It is not a "we'll figure it out as we go" process. That is not fair to the dog and certainly not fair to other hikers. The woods are a great place for dogs, but can be overwhelming to an unaclimated dog. Take it slow and do it right, or don't do it at all.

Tractor
12-18-2004, 19:55
Fatman. I like your attitude about all this. I wish more hikers, those here and not, had the same outlook and dedication. Best of luck with Cooper.

saimyoji
12-18-2004, 20:06
Bloodroot: We agree on this point. I just thought instead of the typical complaining, threatening and name-calling on this subject that we could try to be proactive and productive. So many threads get great input: food, gear, health issues...why not something for dog owners.

Perhaps I'm being naive. I guess if dog owners wanted that kind of info/advice they'd speak up and ask for it.:datz

Blue Jay
12-18-2004, 20:42
I'm not a dog owner and know nothing about training dogs, just thought it might be better to educate these people, rather than just whine about their behavior.

You whine about beer, others wine about dogs.

minnesotasmith
12-18-2004, 22:14
"I've read the posts saying dogs need to be leashed 100% of the time. That is not reality. In fact, in many places it is simply dangerous. Tough terrain requires both the dog and the owner to be free of restaints. A trail dog knows how to behave off leash."

Then, find out in advance what sections of the Trail are that way, and don't bring your dog along on those sections you are not going be able to manage the complexity of hooking a leash to your dog, and holding onto the leash. Your problems/convenience do not constitute justification for exposing innocent strangers to a loose dog.

weary
12-18-2004, 22:30
....There are no magic wands for training a trail dog. It takes time, patience, and more time. Cooper is now 7 months old and has probably hiked a couple hundred miles of trails. He has overnighted at several public campgrounds but not yet on the trail. That will begin in the spring. By the time he is 18 months old I expect him to be a pro. I can assure all the naysayers that they will not have to worry about this pup.
Now tell us about all those people 7-month-old Cooper has met during his 200 trail miles of training.

Weary

FatMan
12-18-2004, 23:19
Then, find out in advance what sections of the Trail are that way, and don't bring your dog along on those sections you are not going be able to manage the complexity of hooking a leash to your dog, and holding onto the leash. Your problems/convenience do not constitute justification for exposing innocent strangers to a loose dog.I am very aware of where leash requirements exist and follow the rule 100%. I might suggest to you to avoid trails where dogs are not required to be leashed so you will not be exposed to a loose dog. Too bad you do not set the rules. All the trails in your home state in the National Forests have no leash requirement. Instead of your rediculous babling on the topic, if you feel so strong about it get the rules changed. Until you get the rules changed it is my right to hike with my dog off leash under verbal control where I deem necessary. The fact is I keep my dog on leash 98% of the time. In the meantime, if you can't accept that stick to the State Park trails where all dogs are required on leash.


Now tell us about all those people 7-month-old Cooper has met during his 200 trail miles of training. I say with complete confidence not a single person would have a bad thing to say about Cooper. In fact, perfect strangers who I've stopped and talked with give him good marks.

BTW, this thread was supposed to be about training dogs and dog owners. Don't you naysayers have enough other threads about all the terrible dogs on the trail to post on. Oh, I know, you just can't help yourselves. Just more of the out of control hikers that I often speak of.

minnesotasmith
12-19-2004, 00:08
"I am very aware of where leash requirements exist and follow the rule 100%. I might suggest to you to avoid trails where dogs are not required to be leashed so you will not be exposed to a loose dog. Too bad you do not set the rules. All the trails in your home state in the National Forests have no leash requirement."

There aren't any posted rules on the AT saying that it's not OK to let your dog shake off wet inside shelters on other hikers and their gear, knock over people's food, bite them, etc., so in your world, that's allowed, then? You probably think that a shrug, a smile, and continuing on down the Trail (instead of paying for the damages, apologizing, and getting your &%* mutt the Hades off the Trail right then) would be the appropriate action afterwards, too.

"Just more of the out of control hikers that I often speak of."

No, it's about the out-of-control (off-leash) dogs that grossly selfish insensible-to-the-idea-that-other-people-have-rights-too dogowners let loose on the Trail that's the issue. Apparently, you are one of them.

FatMan
12-19-2004, 00:40
Hey MS


If you would read what others post on this forum instead of just running your mouth all the time you would already know that I feel dogs should be banned from all shelters.

And there are laws in this country about dog owner's liability for dog bites and damage to other's personal property. In fact if my dog were to ever damage anyones personal property I would definately make restitution. If my dog ever bit anyone without cause I would make restitution and put him down.

I am a strong proponent of owner responsibility for their dog's actions. Whether walking down the street or hiking on the trail it is the owner's sole responsibilty to see that their dog behaves properly and does not endanger any property or person.

Your post directly attacking me is very un-informed and without merit. Just another case of your diarrhea of the mouth that you have become known by on this forum.

I'm done wasting my time with you and your off topic rants. I'll keep my future posts on this thread on topic.

minnesotasmith
12-19-2004, 00:59
I'll retract most of what I said against you on this thread. However, why won't you restrict where you take your dog outdoors either to A) your own property, B) away from hiking trails, or C) where you can keep him leashed? Having a dog off-leash is an experiment (no matter how many times you have done it successfully) that other people have not consented to be part of. It just seems unreasonably selfish and insensitive IMO to do so, the animal ownership equivalent of the opposite of LNT.

Seraphim
12-19-2004, 06:30
Damn, MS! Haven't you ever needed a bit of warmth in one of those cold shelter moments! Have a heart-I've never met a dog on the trail that was bloodthirsty or rabid, and until I do, I think I'll be alright. Grumpy hikers are worse than an annoying dog. I, probably like every other hiker, think that trail dogs should take after their (hopefully respectable) owner, be quiet and stay put when everyone's trying to eat or sleep! I have seen hikers get bitten, but because of their stupidity.

I have also hiked with a very energetic dog that didn't belong to me. At the beginnning, her seemingly-ceaseless motion and misbehaviours had me uneasy about having her in the mix of everyday hiking. By katahdin, I would've fought for Kaya... She added so much to every day, cleaned our pots, watched our backs, gave us entertainment and extra exercise... and not to mention LOVE! She was part of our family, and in the wilderness, it just wasn't the same without her.

Anyhow, all I am trying to say is that hiking with a dog is quite rewarding and refreshing when done correctly. No trail dog is on a leash 90% of the time, it's more like 9%= road crossings, town and parks. But before coming on the trail, the dog needs to prove it can handle being free of constraint. It needs to get accustomed to seeing tons of strangers, smelling tons of other animals, sleeping outside, walking all day and sleeping all night. It is all vital to EVERYONEs hike, and completely up to the owner. Trail dogs need to be loved, nutured and learned, well-fed and well-trained. THEY'RE THRU-HIKERS TOO! But, if the dog can't respect other hikers, it should not be on the trail. So, MS and fellow hikers, if you had a bad experience with a dog on the trail, don't get mad at the animal, get mad at the human. Because a dog cannot help curiosity, especially if that is all it has ever known.

Valmet
12-19-2004, 09:24
Most dogs I have come across on the trail are a pain. I do not like out of control dogs. But I do realize that it is their owners fault. I do know that a dog is just responding to how they were raised. But that being said I finally came across a dog that was trained and perfect. I was on a section south of Blood Mountain in Ga and there came a dog down the trail in front of his master about 50 feet. He said sit and the dog instantly sat down. He put his hand on top of his head and waited for me to come up. The dog was wagging his tail. I stopped and told him what a well behaved dog he had. He said he can't stand dogs that run wild and he had his trained to obey his commands. He said shake and the dog held out his paw. I shook the paw and he just kept wagging his tail. As I left his owner said let's go and the dog trotted just in front of him. Now this owner and dog was a real role model for hiking with an animal. If they were all like this I would saw bring Fido along.

FatMan
12-19-2004, 13:15
Tips on training your dog for the Trail. This is not all-inclusive but some highlights.

1. Your dog must know that different behaviors are expected when hiking. So you must have a signal that the different behaviors are expected. When I put a harness / pack on my dog he knows we are going hiking. He only wears the harness / pack on the trail.

2. You need some special commands for the trail to avoid confusion for your dog. The two I use most are "Hike" and "Halt".

Hiking is different than walking. When dogs are trained for walks they are taught to stay at the owner's left side. That is not possible on the trail. The best is for the dog to walk 7' - 12' in front of the owner on a retractable leash, or if hiking with another for the dog to stay between the two. The dog should never be out of site and he will be able to tell how far ahead he is with his hearing. The command "Hike" lets the dog know to move forward from my side to the hiking behavior.

"Halt" is a special command that eventually will become a sight command. As soon a hiker approaches the dog is given the command. Upon the command the dog is to stop, and turn back to me. Over time the verbal is not necessary as the dog will exhibit the behavior upon sight of another hiker. "Wait" Is a different command that requires the dog to stop and then I come to him. I rarely use it on the trail as I usually want the dog to stop and return to me.

3. Training is a Praise and Reward process. While training you have to find places to perform the expected behaviors over and over again in five minute sessions. During a day hike you should have about 10 of these sessions each time. Every time you get the behavior expected be sure to "Praise and Reward(food treats).

4. All command training must take place "on leash". It is only after your dog exhibits instant recognition to verbal and sight commands that you move to the same training "off leash". If your dog does not perform "off leash" as expected don't punish, just don't praise or reward. Just stop and move on and
try again in ten or fifteen minutes.

5. When hiking with your dog try to read the other hikers. It's not hard to tell dog friend or foe by body language. If your dog is properly trained his only exposure to strangers will be on leash as he has returned to you upon sight of the on coming hiker. With my dog I always yield to other hikers. Upon stopping my dog is given a sight command to sit. I shorten the leash and allow them to pass. If the oncoming hikers stop to talk or show an interest in my dog, I announce "He is friendly and you can pet him if you wish". In either situation the dog is always praised for correct behavior.
6.Train you dog as a puppy. The most difficult behavior to correct is "chasing". It is instinct and instinctive behavior is toughest to change. You can only train this in areas where critters are common. I fortunately have tons of squirrels in my yard and we worked on this daily for weeks on end. You have to make not chasing a greater thrill than chasing. I keep a small squeaky toy in my pocket and when he makes a move towards the squirrel I pull it out and we play. I make playing with me more fun than chasing the squirrels. And of course a treat.

7. Recognize that your dog will do things that no training will change. For example, if your dog feels you are being threatened by others he will growl. For some reason they find certain people offensive, I suppose just like some people find dogs offensive. Just understand this will happen. Just move on.

8. And lastly, you have chosen to hike with your dog. Others have not done the same. If hiking with a dog it is your responsibility to avoid contact with other hikers. That means no shelters and hiking by yourself. If you want human contact on the trail leave your dog at home. However, with a well trained dog some hikers may adopt your dog. If that is the case feel free to hike with the adopters, but again....not in shelters. Pitch a tent and keep your dog away.

As I stated earlier in the thread, this takes time, patience, and more time. If you're not going to do it right, don't do it. Your untrained dog only causes headaches for me (see posts above), just as out of control hikers in trail towns cause headaches for all of us.

Happy Hiking and bring your well trained Fido along.

Jack Tarlin
12-19-2004, 16:34
I think it's wonderful that there are folks out there who realize how important it is that their dog is well-trained before they take it on the Trail.

That being said, after thinking about this a long time, and after having seen and interacted with scores of dogs and their owners on the A.T., it is my considered opionion that if you truly care about what's best for your pet, and if you truly care about the consideration of the hundreds of other folks that you'll be sharing the Trail with on a long hike, then the single most significant choice you can make regarding your dog is to leave it at home.

Ridge
12-19-2004, 23:56
A very very small percentage of dog hikers ever complete a thru hike as started. Every one of the hikers I've known personally who did start a long hike with a dog eventually had to have someone pick the dog up somewhere along the trail. The dog usually being injured. I consider those who hike with dogs are just out to walk the dog, mess up shelters and the trail, and are just not serious thru hikers. Dogs are not trail or wildlife friendly, so leave fido at home and save it the injuries it probably will incur.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

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RU98A
12-20-2004, 08:27
Why don't ya just leave little ole poochie at home and save the other hikers from stepping in stinking dog poop and having dogs piss on their packs and in shelters where ya have to smell dog piss while trying to rest? Or jumping all over you while you are trying to eat a meal.

Bloodroot
12-20-2004, 08:59
Why don't ya just leave little ole poochie at home and save the other hikers from stepping in stinking dog poop and having dogs piss on their packs and in shelters where ya have to smell dog piss while trying to rest? Or jumping all over you while you are trying to eat a meal.
Again, it all goes back to the owner's measure of responsibility.

Now I would by no means not take my dog, just because I don't want to have to deal with catering him. But that's just me. Generally speaking, I don't feel that someone should discriminate against folks who do. Just respect other hikers while doing so.

LIhikers
12-21-2004, 09:46
My wife and I often take our 80 pound shephard hiking with us on the AT as well as other trails. He's done more hiking than most people I know. We know full well that not everyone likes dogs and we take measures to make sure others don't have to deal with our dog if they don't want to.

1. First of all, he's obedience trained. We had originally raised him for a local guide dog school. That required us to spend a lot of time and effort socializing and obedience training him under their instruction. He didn't make it as a guide so we adopted him. I believe every dog should be trained for obedience.

2. He stays on leash 99% of the time while hiking. On the rare occasion that we let him off leash we're confident that he will stay within sight of us and come when called.

3. We step off the trail to let other hikers pass. That way it's their choice if they want to interact with the dog or not.

4. We always clean up after him.

5. At night we use our tent and the dog comes in it with us. In fact, we bought a 3 person tent specifically for hiking with our dog.

I've met more hikers that were less amenable than our dog but I'm not going to suggest that people be banned from the trail. In fact, I know that our dog won't hurt or both me or others, that's more than I know about the other people I meet out on the trails. Life just doesn't come with any guarantees.

Blue Jay
12-21-2004, 10:02
My wife and I often take our 80 pound shephard hiking with us on the AT as well as other trails. He's done more hiking than most people I know................In fact, I know that our dog won't hurt or both me or others, that's more than I know about the other people I meet out on the trails. Life just doesn't come with any guarantees.

This post clearly describes the main problem with dog people. He knows his 80 pound shepard won't hurt others. He assumes everyone else knows this, when it is clearly more than we know about his large dog. Being bitten by a human is not likely unless you are a police officer, yet he claims not to know this. He has no clue that his large dog could cause fear in a human that has been bitten, or if he does he, could care less. As he said, life does not come with guarantees. For his own pleasure, he has scared more people than he knows or cares.

Lone Wolf
12-21-2004, 10:11
Bottom line, dogs don't belong on the AT. It's a footpath for humans and the wild animals that live there.

Blue Jay
12-21-2004, 10:12
Think of it another way. I decide it would be fun to walk the trail with an AK-47 (I would in fact carry a car first). It's not loaded, and also has all internal parts removed. I know it's harmless, but many people would be terrified to walk past me while I pointed it at them. But since I want to bring my "pet" with me, screw their reaction. This is exactly what dog people accomplish.

Lone Wolf
12-21-2004, 10:13
Damn good analogy. :D

SGT Rock
12-21-2004, 10:59
I totally agree. MAybe I would even add that I might bring the guts so I could fire it occasionally, but those aroundme should feel perfectly safe because I promise none of the bullets will hit them and the noise really isn't that bad, especially to a gun lover.

Lone Wolf
12-21-2004, 11:30
I LOVE the smell of gun powder in the morning...

Peter Mossberg
12-21-2004, 11:52
Can you imagine if every hiker brought a dog along with them?

Most dogs are okay, but they are definitely high-impact. I see lots of dog crap on the trail, and always seem to step in it. Some people let them run off in the woods chasing wildlife and run around above treeline (fragile alpine terrain).

The excitable ones also like to jump up on you with their muddy paws.

If you let them run unleashed, you can't watch them all the time. I watched a dog take a dump right on top of Mt. LAfayette NH, while the 2 owners were busy with their stove (the dog's owners did not see it happen)

As long as dog owner's understand that not everyone thinks their puppy is adorable and some are even deathly afraid of dogs, I really don't have a problem with it, but try and use your brain.

Ridge
12-21-2004, 12:27
are really just walking the mutt. I guess its like a vacation because its been locked up at home because the owner fears a car or someone make get it. The owners could be tired of picking up the crap because of some ordinance and need a break, so they come and mess up the great outdoors, where "it will harm nothing". I am thinking about starting a poll, "How many AT thru-miles(within an 8mth period) have you hiked with a dog?" (1.) 0- wouldn't take a dog (2.) 1-50 (3) 51-100 (4) 101-500 (5) 501 -1200(6) 1201- 1700 (7) 1701-2100 (8) 2101-Katahdin. Lets see how many liars are out there.

LIhikers
12-21-2004, 14:19
First of all I don't assume that everyone knows my dog is harmless. If you read, and quote, my entire post you'll see the things I do so that NOONE else has to bother with or be bothered by my dog. Next point, I DO care about how others feel about my dog. That's why I do the things I do because I DON'T want to ruin their hike. If I were only concerned about myself and my dog he'd be running free instead of on the leash. I never claimed to know anything about being bitten by a human. Please read the words that are actually there and don't make things up. Humans have a much bigger bag of tricks than just bitting. If they are up to no good there's no way to tell what they might do.

Now lets go on to the idea of carrying an AK-47. First let me say right up front that I don't know much about weapons, but I'm pretty sure they are illegal on most, if not all, of the AT. I guess either of us could find that out by a simple call to the ATC. I do know that in most of NY state (except NY city and maybe some of the other cities) it is not illegal to carry an unconcealed rifle, even through a residential neighborhood, even if it scares the begeebers out of people. Sure they may not like it, just as some people don't like dogs on hiking trails, but society, by it's laws has deemed it OK. I'm no lawyer, and don't play one on TV so I won't pretend to know for sure but I'd bet that once you start pointing that rifle at people that might be considered a threatening act which, in some jurisdictions, might be illegal. It would kind be like if I held my dog's leash with one hand, pointed at someone with the other hand and commanded the dog to attack. Once I unhooked the leash, or you pulled the trigger, it would go from a threat to an action and we'd both be on the wrong side of the law.

I think this dog thing is one issue where we will never agree. The chance of either of us convincing the other to change his mind is slim to none. Despite that we are both members of the community of hikers and it's OK to disagree on some things.

weary
12-21-2004, 14:21
Can you imagine if every hiker brought a dog along with them?

Most dogs are okay, but they are definitely high-impact. I see lots of dog crap on the trail, and always seem to step in it. Some people let them run off in the woods chasing wildlife and run around above treeline (fragile alpine terrain).

The excitable ones also like to jump up on you with their muddy paws.

If you let them run unleashed, you can't watch them all the time. I watched a dog take a dump right on top of Mt. LAfayette NH, while the 2 owners were busy with their stove (the dog's owners did not see it happen)

As long as dog owner's understand that not everyone thinks their puppy is adorable and some are even deathly afraid of dogs, I really don't have a problem with it, but try and use your brain.
No one mentions the most serious problem with dogs on the trail. Studies show that almost all outdoor dogs eventually become carriers of giardia. That friendly pooch that likes to snuggle up and drool and lap the hands and faces of hikers is drooling giardia cysts and spreading giardia.

Weary

SGT Rock
12-21-2004, 15:03
Now lets go on to the idea of carrying an AK-47. First let me say right up front that I don't know much about weapons, but I'm pretty sure they are illegal on most, if not all, of the AT....


I think this dog thing is one issue where we will never agree. The chance of either of us convincing the other to change his mind is slim to none. Despite that we are both members of the community of hikers and it's OK to disagree on some things.

Well, substitute running chainsaw for AK47, still pretty bleak idea. The thought was to show the absurdity of saying it is others problems to get over their fear of dogs instead of the other way around.

But on the point of changing minds, I disagree here. I used to think having a dog on a trail was no big deal until I started listneing to other hikers on boards like this. It opened my eyes to the things I was blind to as a dog lover. Years ago I was converted. Hopefully others can be too.

Blue Jay
12-21-2004, 15:25
LI, I am very aware that an AK-47, even a hollow one, is illegal. I certainly am not claiming anyone should carry one. It was merely an attempt to show you what you are doing. To anyone hiking near you, your fingers are on a trigger (the leash). To anyone hiking near you, you could pull that trigger (letting go of the leash) at any time. Is your legal right to have an 80 pound dog in the woods, while we are miles from help, worth terrorizing people? Clearly to you it is, YOU DO NOT CARE. Actually someone who is pointing an AK-47 is more honest than you are, because they are risking arrest for terrorizing people. You just do it for your own amusement with no risk. You are dog people, cold and unfeeling.

java
12-21-2004, 19:47
Why does every 'dog' thread have to degrade to dog hating 'my ideas are holier than thou'???<O =""></O>

We're all entitled to our opinions. Right?<O =""></O>

I don't think bigots and racists should hike the trail, and they scare the heck out of me, but that's MY opinion. Everyone is allowed to hike the trail; I can't do anything about them. Except maybe avoid them. If you hate dogs, avoid them. If you see a dog taking a crap where it shouldn't, just say something. If you don't want a dog in a shelter, speak up. Is that so hard? I've done it, and I like dogs. But I believe that we all need help remembering to be responsible in the woods. I've walked up on (gasp!) HUMANS crapping next to the trail, and I let them know how I feel about that. Maybe this should be taken up on an individual basis in the woods, rather than over and over again here. NOT all dogs are bad, neither are all dog owners.<O =""></O>

Face it, dogs are allowed on the AT with the exception of GSMNP and Baxter.
Yeah, you don't like dogs on the trail. We GET it!!<O =""></O>

So why reply so negatively when someone is actually seeking advice on how to do something that is actually ALLOWED on the trail??? Expecially when they're asking how to do it responsibly???

Does this forum always have to resort to this? We've heard it before. <O =""></O>

Again, MY OPINION. Clearly not yours.
And for the record, no, I didn't thru-hike with a dog.<O =""></O>

Chip
12-21-2004, 21:42
Why does every 'dog' thread have to degrade to dog hating 'my ideas are holier than thou'???<O =""></O>

We're all entitled to our opinions. Right?<O =""></O>

I don't think bigots and racists should hike the trail, and they scare the heck out of me, but that's MY opinion. Everyone is allowed to hike the trail; I can't do anything about them. Except maybe avoid them. If you hate dogs, avoid them. If you see a dog taking a crap where it shouldn't, just say something. If you don't want a dog in a shelter, speak up. Is that so hard? I've done it, and I like dogs. But I believe that we all need help remembering to be responsible in the woods. I've walked up on (gasp!) HUMANS crapping next to the trail, and I let them know how I feel about that. Maybe this should be taken up on an individual basis in the woods, rather than over and over again here. NOT all dogs are bad, neither are all dog owners.<O =""></O>

Face it, dogs are allowed on the AT with the exception of GSMNP and Baxter.
Yeah, you don't like dogs on the trail. We GET it!!<O =""></O>

So why reply so negatively when someone is actually seeking advice on how to do something that is actually ALLOWED on the trail??? Expecially when they're asking how to do it responsibly???

Does this forum always have to resort to this? We've heard it before. <O =""></O>

Again, MY OPINION. Clearly not yours.
And for the record, no, I didn't thru-hike with a dog.<O =""></O>
Expressed very well Java :clap :clap . I have added my 2 cents about hiking with dogs on other threads and there have expressed the fact that it is the owner who is responsible for their dog. At times I hike with my dogs on the
AT and other trails in this area. My dogs are trained, leashed (and they can be managed that way), always tent, NO SHELTERS. Always remember that we share the trail and respect all who hike (include LNT).

For those who want to hike with their dog you must do three things first.

1.Train yourself - get trained or read, there are some good books out there on this subject. 2. Train your dog. 3. Respect the other hikers on the trail & use common sense. That means LNT (clean up after your dog). Tent, DO NOT STAY IN SHELTERS. Keep your dog quiet at night. Keep them away from hikers as they pass by on the trail. Basically put yourself in the other hikers
"boots". Not everyone wants to be bothered by a dog. When I hike with my dogs it is my choice and my responsibility.

Thanks again and Happy Trails!!!!
Chip ;)

Alligator
12-21-2004, 22:09
Right on Java. "Why do all the anti-dog people have to ruin perfectly good threads." There's probably a dozen other anti-dog threads you folks could piss and moan in. Oh well goodtimes. (Who am I busting today?;) .)

Bitch about it all you want, (ole Alligator certainly ain't gonna stop you), but dog owners have a legal right in most places to have the dog on the trail. Making realistic suggestions about training the animal will have more positive impacts for all concerned than will the constant anti-dog rhetoric.

woof woof.


P.S. For a real laugh, google (news) Bark Mitzvah.

minnesotasmith
12-21-2004, 22:32
You are a jerk (whom I hope never gets to hike), no matter how many hundreds or thousands of words of blathering B.S. self-serving rationalization you can s**t from your mouth. Period.

So, what other subjects do you dogowners want to talk about?

Oh, and gun ownership as a right is explicityly aprt of the U.S. Constitution, putting it on a bit higher plane than is the non-"right" to bring dogs where they will always have a nonzero chance of causing trouble for innocent strangers. And, anyone that thinks that humans don't have higher rights than animals would have to be a lifetime strict vegan active member of ALF, or they would be a hypocrite, not to ever be listened to on any conversation related to animals.

JillJones
12-22-2004, 00:46
I love dogs and saw many well-trained dogs on the trail. However, I also had my share of dogs charge me and also one dog who tried to bite me. The owner had taped the dogs mouth to keep it from biting others hikers as well. I think this thread should be about finding solutions to the problems we face while hiking. Not just the AT, but other trails as well. I don’t wish to turn it into a slugfest, however, when I see posts of misinformation being written here, then I feel I should put my two cents in. Such as from the 2 quotes below: " /><O:p></O:p>

Seraphim: I have also hiked with a very energetic dog that didn't belong to me. At the beginnning, her seemingly-ceaseless motion and misbehaviours had me uneasy about having her in the mix of everyday hiking. By katahdin, I would've fought for Kaya... She added so much to every day, cleaned our pots, watched our backs, gave us entertainment and extra exercise... and not to mention LOVE! She was part of our family, and in the wilderness, it just wasn't the same without her.<O:p></O:p>

Well Seraphim, It was not the same for the people who had to put up with this dog and the owners. I was in one of the shelters when Kava, you and her owners came into one of the shelters. Not only did they not take care of the dog as it jumped all over the place, (Including my gear), but it barked enough for me to leave, they failed to clean up it’s crap and then I heard later from others who left also, they let the dog sleep in the shelter. I can understand why you folks felt you needed it to watch your backs as you all were either wasted most of the time or talking about how wasted you got at the last town. Which is why maybe you and your friends failed to see the reality of trail & shelter behavior. <O:p></O:p>

Java: I don't think bigots and racists should hike the trail, and they scare the heck out of me, but that's MY opinion. Everyone is allowed to hike the trail; I can't do anything about them. Except maybe avoid them. If you hate dogs, avoid them. If you see a dog taking a crap where it shouldn't, just say something. If you don't want a dog in a shelter, speak up. Is that so hard? I've done it, and I like dogs. But I believe that we all need help remembering to be responsible in the woods.<O:p></O:p>

I agree with you that there is not much we can do about who hikes the trail and if they bring their dog. I tried to avoid them as much as possible if they are not trained. However, after a 20-mile day and your ready to fall asleep when a group comes in with a dog like the above group did then I have 2 choices? One, I can said something. Yet, being outnumbered 6 to 1 would not be a smart thing on my part. Two, get up and move on which I did. So while this immature 19 year-old girl Seraphim wishes to think the dog gave her love, it gave many of us around this group a whole difference experience. She failed to even consider what a pain in the butt the dog was for others. I didn’t say anything then, but here I will in the hope that, (And like you said, “we all need help remembering to be responsible in the woods.”) if her group decides to do the trail again, maybe they might give some thought as to who will remember the truth of what really took place on the trail and behave differently..

saimyoji
12-22-2004, 00:59
My hope was that this thread would be more about exchange of info. rather than another place to bust on dog lovers/coulddowithouters. I am ambivalent (never thru-hiked, but have encountered dogs on the trail) as of yet, but we ought to be able to come to a common agreement about dogs on trails: if you have a dog, you tent at least 10 yards from shelters? Dog has to wear a diaper? Dog has to wear a muzzle? Leash must be secured to gear, not hand? You need a permit on display to have a dog on trail?

Just tossing out ideas here.

screwysquirrel
12-22-2004, 01:08
Thank God for dogs! They provide many threads of considerate thoughts on this site. And it doesn't matter whether you love em or not, they're gonna be out there no matter you post here. So get used to it. And now about the homeless on the trail.....

java
12-22-2004, 01:23
.... However, after a 20-mile day and your ready to fall asleep when a group comes in with a dog like the above group did then I have 2 choices? One, I can said something. Yet, being outnumbered 6 to 1 would not be a smart thing on my part. Two, get up and move on which I did. ...
Jill, really, I don't mean to be a jerk, but a.) why not say something? and b.) wasn't it the group bothering you or just the dog? I have a feeling it was the entire group including the dog, not just the dog. Inconsiderate people can be inconsiderate on many fronts. Talking late into the night at a shelter, smoking in the shelter, doing dishes in the watersource, not bear bagging can all be considered rude.
I've met many many ******** on the trail, and frankly very few of them are of the canine persuasion. ******** come with and without fur. That's reality, both on and off the trail. Some of them even come from my home state.
I meet plenty of them when I take my dog for a walk in the city. I hate poeple who let their dogs off leash where it isn't allowed, but hey, that's life and I deal with it. I tell them to leash their dogs because I can't be responsible if my dog bites theirs when my is leashed and theirs is not. Not that he would, but thats the law...
Case in point:
I remember hiking out of Pearisburg in 2001 with a bunch of hikers, it was raining hard. Among our 'group' was a guy and his dog who I had hiked with on and off for some weeks. I considered him a decent hiker and good trail friend. When the shelter was full, he didn't immediatley relinquish his dog's 'shelter space' for a newly arrived, very wet hiker...not cool...so instead of brooding about it I spoke up. "Hey man, make room for a wet incoming hiker, that space is hers, not your dogs."
He may have been miffed that I kicked his dog out, but he got over it. The dog lived, the hikers had a dry place to stay, and we all got on with our lives.
My advice for dog owners who want to hike with their dogs:
Be respectful and vocal. ASK the hikers your sharing a space with if they perfer the dog stays out of the shelter, or if they perfer that you tent 100 yards away. Don't be upset if they ask you to move. Pick up after your dog, and most importantly, don't push your dog too hard. It's your hike and they don't have a choice.

mattyg2
12-22-2004, 02:48
It’s great to finally see a thread where people are trying to educate themselves concerning dogs on the trail.

Here is some tricks I've developed while hiking with my dog, hopefully people will start posting some more instead of all of the pointless bickering.

First and most importantly, socialize your dog at home before ever taking him on a trail. Get him used to strangers, other dogs, cats, deer, and other wild animals, cars, loud noises, and anything else you can imagine. The more comfortable your dog is in different situations, the more likely he will be to obey.

The second is obviously obedience train your dog. Come, heel, and down are all critical commands that you dog should be able to perform in all of the above locations with a leash, and finally, without a leash on (on a side note, while training, never give a command you can not enforce immediately, if in doubt, let the dog slide until you are in a position to enforce it).

As for hiking, I find that after the dog is well trained; hiking with a retractable leash attached to my pack is very easy and effective. Beware; constant pulling on retractable leashes can lead to the leash snapping, causing injury to both the dog and the owner.

For the times that the dog is off leash, and there will be times when this is more practical / safe, train your dog to an electronic shock collar. I have had tremendous success with this, and it provides and extra level of security and control for your dog.

For those of you that haven't seen one, it is a collar with a remote control that delivers a SLIGHT electric shock to the dog when a remote control is used. Having tried it on myself several times, (including unintentional times when my brother was playing practical jokes) it is a very surprising tingling sensation that really causes you to stop dead in your tracks, either human or dog. It does not cause pain, but will definitely surprise and stop a dog, allowing you to recall it. Whenever I take my dog anywhere off leash, the collar goes on, either on the trail, around my yard, or at the park. This way, you have the best of both worlds. For those of you that are interested, Innotec (spelled something like this) makes excellent ones.

While making camp, I find that the best method is to bring a long lead, tie it around a nearby tree, and then rig a tarp for the dog, staking three corners and tying the top to the tree trunk with the leash around it. I think this is called the flying diamond, but I'm not positive. This gives your dog ample protection from foul weather, room to roam around, and can be placed near shelters or tents without the dog bothering either one.

As for dogs crapping on the trail, I’m still trying to work out an easy method. Right now, I get my dog off of the trail, and then bury it using local debris, although this is a real pain. Any suggestions would be welcome.

Hope this helps anyone hiking with a dog, and I look forward to hearing any other suggestions or tricks you have picked up along the way. The rest of this forum is very informative; hopefully this thread will start educating dog owners about proper etiquette and responsibility, allowing everyone to enjoy hiking trails.

LIhikers
12-22-2004, 08:23
Well, substitute running chainsaw for AK47, still pretty bleak idea. The thought was to show the absurdity of saying it is others problems to get over their fear of dogs instead of the other way around.

But on the point of changing minds, I disagree here. I used to think having a dog on a trail was no big deal until I started listneing to other hikers on boards like this. It opened my eyes to the things I was blind to as a dog lover. Years ago I was converted. Hopefully others can be too.
First of all, noplace, in any of my posts have I suggested that those who fear dogs should "get over it". Fear of anything is not something that is easily put aside.

As for changing minds, sure that's possible. I'm sure we've all done it on different issues over the years. For me decision making is an internal process, I don't do it just because someone says I should. That's what I ment when I said.."The chance of either of us convincing the other to change his mind is slim to none." In an effort to better understand this whole issue, one day shortly after Christmas, I'll sit down and reread this entire thread paying particular attention to those who say that dogs shouldn't be on the trail. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind too.

Blue Jay
12-22-2004, 08:47
Everyone is allowed to hike the trail; I can't do anything about them. Except maybe avoid them. If you hate dogs, avoid them.Yeah, you don't like dogs on the trail. We GET it!!<O =""></O>

[color=black]So why reply so negatively when someone is actually seeking advice on how to do something that is actually ALLOWED on the trail??? Expecially when they're asking how to do it responsibly???

[color=black]Does this forum always have to resort to this? We've heard it before.

1) Avoid them, you can't.
2) They are not acting responsibly, they are pointing clearly unknown weapons at random hikers.
3) Yes you've heard it before and you'll hear it again. The fact that you refuse to see what is happening is irrelevent. You used to see a lot more garbage along the trail, eventually people get the idea.
4) Minnisota pleaase don't help, you make me want to hike with a dog (don't worry I won't).

LIhikers
12-22-2004, 08:54
LI, I am very aware that an AK-47, even a hollow one, is illegal. I certainly am not claiming anyone should carry one. It was merely an attempt to show you what you are doing. To anyone hiking near you, your fingers are on a trigger (the leash). To anyone hiking near you, you could pull that trigger (letting go of the leash) at any time. Is your legal right to have an 80 pound dog in the woods, while we are miles from help, worth terrorizing people? Clearly to you it is, YOU DO NOT CARE. Actually someone who is pointing an AK-47 is more honest than you are, because they are risking arrest for terrorizing people. You just do it for your own amusement with no risk. You are dog people, cold and unfeeling.
By me bringing my dog with me hiking I'm not "terrorizing" anyone. For me to terrorize someone would mean that I'm purposefully setting out to cause them great fear, and that's not the case. You acuse me of not caring about other people, and that's not true. If I didn't care about others I wouldn't take the measures I do to control my dog so that noone else has to deal with him. Please reread my post from a couple of days ago. Keep in mid that saying that I don't care about others, just because we don't agree on this point about dogs, doesn't mean it's true. That would be like some couch potato saying that anyone who likes to sleep in the woods must be crazy. Does it make him right just because he doesn't understand what we like to do? No, it surely doesn't. And in the same way you are not right about making statements about me just because you and I don't understand each other on this point.

After Christmas, when life is a little less hectic, I'm going to reread this entire thread paying particular attention to the posts that side with no dogs on the trail. Who knows, if I glean some new information that I haven't already considered maybe I'll change my mind.

Peter Mossberg
12-22-2004, 10:13
Did you know that 90% of dog owners believe that their dog is above average in behavior?

(all right, I made up the statistic, but you get my point)

There are good dogs and bad dogs. Unfortunately (like parents) , the dog owner is usually blinded by his or her love for the dog, and does not recognize a bad dog.

Also,
Someone suggested that if you have a dog, you should tent 100 yards away from the shelter. I don't know about the rest of the AT, but in NH, you must sleep in the shelter, or find a site at least 1/4 mile away (and usually) 200 feet off the trail.

Blue Jay
12-22-2004, 10:41
By me bringing my dog with me hiking I'm not "terrorizing" anyone. For me to terrorize someone would mean that I'm purposefully setting out to cause them great fear, and that's not the case. You acuse me of not caring about other people, and that's not true.

As I'm sure you are aware, hundreds of people are attacked and bitten by dogs each year. This is an open fact. If you come upon one of these people you WILL cause them great fear, you know this also. Therefore you are purposefully setting out to cause these people great fear. Granted you may not come upon one of these people. So you are in a way correct, you are only a random terrorist. That's so much better.

Blue Jay
12-22-2004, 10:47
just because we don't agree on this point about dogs, doesn't mean it's true. That would be like some couch potato saying that anyone who likes to sleep in the woods must be crazy. Does it make him right just because he doesn't understand what we like to do? No, it surely doesn't. And in the same way you are not right about making statements about me just because you and I don't understand each other on this point.

Your analogy has some major flaws, but it again does illustrate why dog people just don't get it. The couch potato does not threaten those who sleep in the woods. Those who sleep in the woods do not threaten couch potatoes. They DON'T EVEN SEE EACH OTHER. You simply do not see those you threaten.

SGT Rock
12-22-2004, 10:48
By me bringing my dog with me hiking I'm not "terrorizing" anyone. For me to terrorize someone would mean that I'm purposefully setting out to cause them great fear, and that's not the case. You acuse me of not caring about other people, and that's not true. If I didn't care about others I wouldn't take the measures I do to control my dog so that noone else has to deal with him.

I disagree, you can terrorize someone without ever meaning to. Everhave someone do something stupid in a car ahead of you on the highway? Terrorizing isn't it. But they probably didn'tmean to scare you.

Anyway, the thread is about how to best train your dog to hike so it gets along with people. How about train your dog to do without you while you hike and train yourself to do without your dog? Hmmmm....

Seriously, the question is valid as if someone asks what is the best gun for hiking the AT, the obvious answer is none. Think about it :-?

LIhikers
12-22-2004, 12:50
SGT Rock said..."Anyway, the thread is about how to best train your dog to hike so it gets along with people"

Point well taken. Having raised a dozen dogs that went on to become guides for the blind, law enforcement, and arson dogs I can start off by saying that it's a process that involves a lot of time and effort. If a person isn't willing to put in the work they should never take their dog out in public. I believe there are 2 kinds of attention any pet dog should have. The first is obedience training and the second is socialization. The dog not only has to listen and obey it's handler but it needs to know how to act when in the company of people and other animals. In addition, the dog's handler has to be trained as well. The handler has to know how to control the dog, both verbally and with the leash, and what to expect and not expect of the animal. All of this is basic and nothing specific to hiking and the training never ends. They need to be treated and handled the same day in and day out. There are whole books, websites, and organizations that specialize in training and they can expalin it better than we could in this small space.

Then there are a few things specific to hiking. Things that they'll have to deal with on a trail that they don't normally experience. Things like sleeping in a tent, or navigating rugged terrain. Not chasing other animals, including people, should be part of the dog's regular training.

Duggie
12-22-2004, 16:29
I am not a dog owner, but am reasonably fond of most dogs. One subtlety I have difficulty with is being sniffed and licked. I KNOW they are just being friendly, but in the summer, when I am in shorts, the feeling of having a wet nose and tongue on me feels unclean. Yeah, I know the crap about a dog's tongue is cleaner than a human's but I also see the old nose up the butt move. I am sure all dogs trained for hiking are perfect in the eyes of the owner, but the perspective is everything.

Puck
12-22-2004, 16:41
....I have difficulty.... being sniffed and licked. I KNOW they are just being friendly, but in the summer, when I am in shorts, the feeling of having a wet nose and tongue on me feels unclean. Yeah,....the old nose up the butt move. The quote was intentionaly modified for distortion.

Duggie...couldn't you just close your eyes for a few minutes and daydream? :bse

Seraphim
12-22-2004, 17:14
Seraphim: I have also hiked with a very energetic dog that didn't belong to me. At the beginnning, her seemingly-ceaseless motion and misbehaviours had me uneasy about having her in the mix of everyday hiking. By katahdin, I would've fought for Kaya... She added so much to every day, cleaned our pots, watched our backs, gave us entertainment and extra exercise... and not to mention LOVE! She was part of our family, and in the wilderness, it just wasn't the same without her. <O:p</O:pWell Seraphim, It was not the same for the people who had to put up with this dog and the owners. I was in one of the shelters when Kava, you and her owners came into one of the shelters. Not only did they not take care of the dog as it jumped all over the place, (Including my gear), but it barked enough for me to leave, they failed to clean up it’s crap and then I heard later from others who left also, they let the dog sleep in the shelter. I can understand why you folks felt you needed it to watch your backs as you all were either wasted most of the time or talking about how wasted you got at the last town. Which is why maybe you and your friends failed to see the reality of trail & shelter behavior. <O:p></O:p>

Okay, I do not know who you are or when you met me, but all of this blasphemy is ridiculous. I hiked the trail, just like everyone else, and I happened to meet up with Lil Munchkin and her lab, Kaya, in Stratton. I had pretty much hiked my own hike up to that town, soloing quite a bit, and I never had problems with any hiker, ever. I understand that some do not take to dogs, especially an energetic one. But Kaya settled down after we settled- she was just a hiker, exploring her home for the night and marking territory. I am not her owner, so do not scold me for her behaviour, which I never recall. She did sleep in the shelter once it started getting cold, but only so she wouldn't FREEZE TO DEATH! And we only slept in a few shelters, so I am curious as to where we met you and all of the other hikers who apparently had a problem with Kaya. If you have a problem as to our hiking tendencies, then speak your mind instead of being ridiculous and holding back until after the hike. There's nothing I can do now. Oh, and yeah, we did get wasted in town in Maine. A lot. But that is because we had walked 2000 miles to get there. Yea, we were the party train. Everyone remembers, and everyone knows. Also, not only are my town antics none of your business, they are obviously none of your concern. I am a wild child with a passionate heart, a sound mind, and dreams bigger than the life I've lived up to this point. I am a gypsy, and I am a thru-hiker. I deserve at least the respect of having done the AT, LNT and being a remarkable teenager.

JillJones
12-22-2004, 20:18
Okay, I do not know who you are or when you met me,

You were too stoned at the time to remember. You were falling all over the place. When you tried to talk to me you made no sense at all. That was the 1st time. After that I kept my distance.

but all of this blasphemy is ridiculous.

So was watching you stumble, and fall and listen to your stories about getting high.

I hiked the trail, just like everyone else, and I happened to meet up with Lil Munchkin and her lab, Kaya, in Stratton. I had pretty much hiked my own hike up to that town, soloing quite a bit, and I never had problems with any hiker, ever.

Once again, how could you remember when you were stoned most of the time? But then you must have had some problems with hikers. Once again your words:

Grumpy hikers are worse than an annoying dog.... And I have seen hikers get bitten, but because of their stupidity.

Why were they grumpy hikers? Maybe they just wanted to get some sleep or enjoy some peace and quiet. So how many hikers have you seen get bitten and what stupid things were they doing to deserve to be bitten? Does someone's "Stupidity' mean it's ok to inflict injury upon this person?

I understand that some do not take to dogs, especially an energetic one. But Kaya settled down after we settled- she was just a hiker, exploring her home for the night and marking territory. I am not her owner, so do not scold me for her behaviour, which I never recall.

I didn't scold you for the dog's behavior. I simply was telling what I experienced and how it differed from your perspective.

She did sleep in the shelter once it started getting cold, but only so she wouldn't FREEZE TO DEATH! And we only slept in a few shelters, so I am curious as to where we met you and all of the other hikers who apparently had a problem with Kaya. If you have a problem as to our hiking tendencies, then speak your mind instead of being ridiculous and holding back until after the hike.

You asked why I didn't say anything. Well here are your words not mine.

"By katahdin, I would've fought for Kaya..."

Not a wise thing for a single woman on the trail to confront a group of people who are stoned. What if the owners, or you did not like what I had to say and an argument or yelling started... Once again your words..

"A dog is there to protect it owner"

I guess if I had been bitten, it would have been my stupidity because I made the mistake and took your advice and: Your words:

"speak your mind instead of being ridiculous and holding back until after the hike."

There's nothing I can do now.

Hmm, Maybe an apology...

Oh, and yeah, we did get wasted in town in Maine. A lot.

According to you it seems you got either high or drunk as much as possible long before you got to Maine.

But that is because we had walked 2000 miles to get there.

I think you need to recheck your mileage as to what you did walk/hike. I listened to your stories as you were pretty well stoned. You had so many places you had been since you left Damascus, and stories you told, that you would have had to hiked 40 miles a day to be a Thru hiker.

According to your post on June 9th, 2004 -

"Today is the day I'm leaving for Maine... from Damascus. I'm starting late, but it's just been weighing on my mind, and I wasn't planning on hiking until next year...

So you didn't leave from Springer this year and walk 2,000 miles. By the way, there are thousands of hikers who have walked 2,000 miles and didn't feel the need to get stoned and falling down drunk.

Yea, we were the party train. Everyone remembers, and everyone knows. Also, not only are my town antics none of your business, they are obviously none of your concern.

Your town antics are not my business, concern or whatever else you do with your life. However, you're the one who choose to tell it to everyone within earshot. You're the one on the trail making the ass of yourself. You and your "Party Train" live in your own little world not caring about other hikers sense of peace and enjoyment on the trail and in shelters.

I am a wild child with a passionate heart, a sound mind, and dreams bigger than the life I've lived up to this point. I am a gypsy, and I am a thru-hiker

(And your definition of a thru-hiker is?) I read your post where you came onto White Blaze on 8/04/2004 and wrote.

Help A Hiker Out!
Hello everyone, Seraphim here in Waynesboro VA... I've come to WhiteBlaze in good faith of someone, anyone, having a tent for a thru-hiker in a jam. I got my tent stolen from the YMCA while I was working (at the HUT).... to get money to get to Maine. So, in making money, I lost it, everything except my therma, my sleep bag and my pack (thank god I feel naked without it!) Be careful at the Y, everyone! Anyway, if anyone has a tent that they would like to get rid of.... feel free to email me...
PLEASE!

Maybe some of that money you spent getting drunk and high on could have gone to buying yourself a tent...

I deserve at least the respect of having done the AT,

(Once again, please fill us in on your start dates and details and I'm sure it will not hold up)

LNT and being a remarkable teenager.

Yes, you are a teenager and a very troubled one at that.

Oh and here's your banana back :banana I think you might have slipped on it...

JillJones
12-22-2004, 20:43
Jill, really, I don't mean to be a jerk, but a.) why not say something? and b.) wasn't it the group bothering you or just the dog? I have a feeling it was the entire group including the dog, not just the dog. Inconsiderate people can be inconsiderate on many fronts. Talking late into the night at a shelter, smoking in the shelter, doing dishes in the watersource, not bear bagging can all be considered rude.
I've met many many ******** on the trail, and frankly very few of them are of the canine persuasion. ******** come with and without fur. That's reality, both on and off the trail. Some of them even come from my home state.
I meet plenty of them when I take my dog for a walk in the city. I hate poeple who let their dogs off leash where it isn't allowed, but hey, that's life and I deal with it. I tell them to leash their dogs because I can't be responsible if my dog bites theirs when my is leashed and theirs is not. Not that he would, but thats the law...
.You’re right that my main problem was with the hikers and not the dog. I love dogs. However, if you read my post in answer to the girl Seraphim then you might understand why I did not say anything at the time. I really wish dogs could be on the trail. As one poster suggested that maybe they should have some type of license, or permit stating their dog has been thru a Trail Dog Training Course. However, the people who do have well behaved dogs are the ones who suffer. More and more people are turning against dogs on the trail and I don't want that. As a single female hiker I wanted to bring my very well trained dog with me. The reason I didn’t was, I read where one girl had her dog shot twice and was lucky that it lived. Will it come to this? People are scared enough as it is. There are a number of people who carry firearms on the trail. It would not take much for a scared hiker to shoot in self-defense and not only end up killing a dog, but also another hiker.... I guess my problem with that poster was that she felt everything was ok and how could people be so cruel. She was not only blind to what the dog was doing, but as to what her and her group were doing as well…

minnesotasmith
12-22-2004, 21:39
"She did sleep in the shelter once it started getting cold, but only so she wouldn't FREEZE TO DEATH!"

You just admitted to taking a dog on the Trail for which you were UNPREPARED to properly care for during the hike. If you had been ready to properly care for your dog, it would have had an adequate (noncotton) dog sweater, room in your tent for it to sleep, been a breed (husky/Malamute/Great Pyrenee/etc.) that could have handled the temperatures, or you'd have had the wisdom to only take your dog when the temps were within its range.

Jeez, what blindness and inconsiderateness you have towards your own animal. If you have this degree of lack of awareness towards how badly you treated your own pet, no wonder you are simply ineducable (like trying to teach a kid with Downs Syndrome differential equations) to how much of a PITA you have been with bringing a dog on the Trail.

Likewise, hiking around you when you have a dog with you in the future will surely involve you being a jerk to innocent strangers, again. Stop being a jerk, and leave off taking a dog on the Trail to those who can do it without degrading other hikers' experience; you obviously can't manage this.

saimyoji
12-22-2004, 21:56
I'm not defending Seraphim, MS, but you should read more carefully. She did not bring the dog on the trail, merely defended its presence. It doesn't make her arguments valid, but it does make yours invallid when directed at her.

minnesotasmith
12-22-2004, 22:13
Seraphim apparently took part in a group hike where a dog was brought on theTrail without adequate preparation, and said and did nothing when this led to either or both of the dog and/or innocent strangers hiking to suffer from this, not seeing anything wrong about it. Too, she still doesn't seem able to understand that what took place was wrong, even though it has been explained to her very simply and clearly. IMO, she has demonstrated some kind of mental block about the whole subject, that arguably disqualifies her from bringing any dog on the AT, ever.

MOWGLI
12-22-2004, 22:28
One subtlety I have difficulty with is being sniffed and licked. I KNOW they are just being friendly, but in the summer, when I am in shorts, the feeling of having a wet nose and tongue on me feels unclean.

In 2000 and for a couple of years after, there were some feral goats living on a ridge along the AT in Virginia. I think it was the same ridge that Sarvers Cabin is on.

When hikers would come upon the goats, the goats would aggresively run up to the hikers and treat them like a salt block.

Well, I get to the shelter just north of where I encountered the goats, and I'm reading the shelter register. Everyone is posting about their encounters with the goats. I come upon one posting, and the hiker wrote "I haven't been licked like that since the night before I left for the trail". Well, I nearly split my liver laughing over that one.

Another true story... I'm somewhere just north of the goats, and some dude with a blue blaze t-shirt (whose name I forget) starts talking jokingly about the goats being Baltimore Jack's love interest (sorry Jack - true story). Well, I didn't know who Jack was at the time, so I was kinda confused. The guy got a big kick out of the fact that I didn't know who Jack was. He just said "you may not know who he is now, but trust me, you will eventually". Jack, you sure have some interesting friends out there. :D

Maybe we should start a separate thread to tell tale about goat encounters.

superman
12-23-2004, 08:06
<TABLE width=320 align=left background=../blank.gif><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.anotherzero.com/tj/photos/1331/pat%2Dme%2Dwinter.jpg (http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=18131&back=1)
Winter, Pat & Superman - Click picture to see full size</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Hiking With A Dog



Considerations

1. Type of relationship you have with your dog. (i.e. does the dog follow your commands?)

2. Breed of dog. Some breeds are better suited to hiking than others. The breeds closer to the wolf seem to do better but there are many exceptions. Winter is a white German Shepard.

3. Will the dog accept carrying a pack (some just don’t want to or won’t)?

4. Is the dog fully socialized to both people and other animals (huge issue!!!!)?

A. I walked Winter through down town Brattleboro, VT many times so she would learn that she didn’t have to react to each person she meets. Winter has also had plenty of time playing and hanging out with other dogs. Other hikers don’t know that your dog is friendly and need assurance from both you and your dog. That also means no jumping up on another hiker or getting in their personal space with out being invited.

B. We sat behind the house and just watched deer, fox, dogs, squirrels and chipmunks. Each time she wanted to go I would say, “stay” and hold her leash. This is an important command for the safety of your dog and the safety of the animals whose home you are hiking through. Winter is not a game dog. She makes no effort to go after other animals. She’s been within a few feet of skunk, porcupine, deer, and snakes and shows no interest in them and they don’t seem to react to her. Last fall we had an incident with a black bear mother with cub. They crossed the trail within feet of Winter. Winter’s back went up and I calmly whispered, “stay.” Winter eased back and stood still until they were off the trail. Then I turned and walked in the opposite direction from the bears and Winter followed.

5. Automatic “stay” before entering shelters. Other hikers especially don’t like wet dogs getting them and their gear wet. I avoid shelters as a rule. I carry a tent.

6. Automatic stay at water sources. I like my dog but don’t want to drink from her water dish. Winter quickly learned the command “drink”. She simply would wait for me to either give the command “drink” or point to where she was to drink from i.e. below the people water. When there was no good place for Winter to drink from I would whip out a collapsible plastic bag that I would quickly get water in for her or fill from my nalgene bottle. Some water sources were simply bad looking and not a good place for Winter to drink from.

7. Food begging is not allowed at home but so many hikers want to give dogs a piece of cheese, meat, bone, chocolate and that is an issue. On the one hand some hikers assume they can give any dog anything while other hikers are bothered by begging dogs. I haven’t found a good answer to this problem except to be vigilant.

8. Distance between you and your dog may vary due to terrain but the rule of thumb is that you should be able to see your dog. You can’t control or protect your dog if you can’t see it.

9. Other hikers who left their dogs at home will play with your dog as a surrogate. Unfortunately what they do with their dog may not be appropriate for your dog. I don’t appreciate or allow Winter to be played with roughly or to get over agitated. Both you and your dog will have a better hike if you train your dog for the trail. All of the things listed above are pretty easily learned due to the repetition of these events on the trail. You simply have to be consistent in what you expect from your dog. You get to hold the leash so that means you’re the one in charge. Taking an ill suited pooch on a long hike is not good, unsafe and unfair to everyone. Your dog should be your best friend and you will both be happier if it is trained for what you are doing. Hiking is not just taking your dog to the woods and walking. I agree, to an extent, with many anti-dog people who think dogs should not be allowed on the trail. Untrained dogs and their indifferent owners should not be allowed on the trail. I was snapped at and the owner simply said, “that’s just what dogs do.” That behavior and that attitude ruin it for other dog owners who want to hike responsibly with their best friend.

superman
12-23-2004, 08:46
Also.....
Winter has hiked the Long Trail in 99, the AT in 00. Since then she hiked on the Florida Trail, PCT, some shorter trails and rehiked some AT sections. She's always ready to go hiking summer or winter. She's 7.5 years old now and doesn't have any hiking problems but at her age I have to be more watchful.

Blue Jay
12-23-2004, 09:08
Your town antics are not my business, concern or whatever else you do with your life. However, you're the one who choose to tell it to everyone within earshot. You're the one on the trail making the ass of yourself. You and your "Party Train" live in your own little world not caring about other hikers sense of peace and enjoyment on the trail and in shelters.

Yes, you are a teenager and a very troubled one at that.


You are WAAAAY out of line slandering Seraphim. I hiked around the same time and met her on and off, both on the trail and in town. I even came into a place where she had been drinking and I was stone sober. There was nothing even remotely wrong with how she was behaving. Your problem is not with a dog or with drinking, you're just mad that she enjoys life more than you do.

Blue Jay
12-23-2004, 09:17
Seraphim apparently took part in a group hike where a dog was brought on theTrail without adequate preparation, and said and did nothing when this led to either or both of the dog and/or innocent

Your ignorance is astounding. So now you condemn anyone who even hikes near a dog. A dog and owner she never met before and just happened to be hiking near. I don't believe you've ever been to a trail head, let alone had the guts to hike at all.

JillJones
12-23-2004, 12:46
You are WAAAAY out of line slandering Seraphim. I hiked around the same time and met her on and off, both on the trail and in town. I even came into a place where she had been drinking and I was stone sober. There was nothing even remotely wrong with how she was behaving. Your problem is not with a dog or with drinking, you're just mad that she enjoys life more than you do.What does that tell you… 19 years old and in a place, which serves, minors. However, did you see her at the end of the night? Did you listen to any of her stories of how drunk and wasted she got? Her outright lies about her hiking. Read her trailjoural on trailjounals, which I did after reading your response. Much of it is how she spent her time drinking and not hiking. Of course there she did not put down her drug use, but on & off the trail it was there. Just because you didn’t see it does not mean it didn’t happen.
There was a story not too long ago about some guy name Fubar who was a great guy. However, once he started drinking then it was a different story. He ended up in jail with a number of charges against him after he attacked some female hiker (This is what was written from an eye witness) and was the reason one hiker at lease left the trail. (P.S. I’m glad to see this guy has made major changes according to him and is even returning to the trail.)

I was enjoying life and do. What I told was just the truth and how her, and her friends made the trail and shelters an unpleasant place to be, due to a dog, and their drinking and drug use. If you can’t see that anyone who spends as much time on and off the trail getting drunk and high has a major problem in their lives, then you need to get educated. She’s a troubled kid who has IMO a drinking and drug problem. She is a major liar and you defending her just helps her think she is on the right track. You telling me “Your problem is not with a dog or with drinking, you're just mad that she enjoys life more than you do.” However, without even knowing all the facts, or me, would be like me saying to you. ‘You problem is you enjoy having a 19 year old flirt and pay some attention to an old s***.’ Get all the facts and then make a knowledgeable opinion.

I no have no doubt that she made friends out there who will defend her and her actions. However, 20 years from now if she is still alive, (Which I hope she is) she just might look back with deep regret. (Just as each and every one of us have about a time in our past)<O:p</O:p

MOWGLI
12-23-2004, 12:53
[color=black][font=Times New Roman]What does that tell you…

Hey Jill, please increase your font size. You're killin' me!

JillJones
12-23-2004, 13:14
Hey Jill, please increase your font size. You're killin' me!Sorry MOWGLI16. I previewed the message before I submitted and everything looked fine... On my browser it's showing the same size fonts. For some reason, there is no edit button on my thread or I would check it and try a different font....

Jill

Blue Jay
12-23-2004, 13:49
Jill, read your last post. You made my point, better than I ever could have. As for flirting, there were plenty of young attractive guys around her at all times (again I believe that to be your major problem). It would have been embarassing to the extreme for me to flirt with her, and I'd be willing to bet she never knew I existed. I'm glad you used the term "old s***" because that is exactly your problem.

JillJones
12-23-2004, 14:33
Jill, read your last post. You made my point, better than I ever could have.

You didn’t make a point to prove one.

If you're implying you think I’m slandering her, then I would check your own house 1st. (As one could make a point that you’re slandering me here by implying I’m jealous or over the hill)

As for flirting, there were plenty of young attractive guys around her at all times (again I believe that to be your major problem).

Shows that you really don't know anything… I could be a lesbian, or I could only be attracted to old, macho, opinionated s****. I guess it’s easy to try and turn it into a catfight on your part so you don’t have think and to deal with the facts.

It would have been embarassing to the extreme for me to flirt with her, and I'd be willing to bet she never knew I existed.

Then you prove my point. You were not around and know all the facts as it was stated and the problem is more then just with this girl.

I'm glad you used the term "old s***" because that is exactly your problem.

And once again, you prove my point. You can’t comment on the issues with facts. You call a few people names, make some bravado statements then run and hide.

Blue Jay
12-23-2004, 14:46
I guess it’s easy to try and turn it into a catfight on your part so you don’t have think and to deal with the facts....You were not around and know all the facts as it was stated and the problem is more then just with this girl.

You keep alluding to "facts", yet your only complaint is that she drinks, takes drugs (marihuana, you make it sound like she was shooting up), and was in the general vicinity of a dog that was not hers. What exactly was her action or actions that has such an extreme bug up you a##. Frankly it must have been something to keep you soooo angry all these months.

Blue Jay
12-23-2004, 15:10
Jill: Martha, just look at that young girl over there. I saw her in town going into a saloon with strange men. I thought our President assured us America would have moral values. In my day a youngins like that would be silent and sweet and help her poor mother, not having a good time.

Martha: Yes, she should be in a convent somewhere. I bet she's having S-E-X.

Jill: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Lone Wolf
12-23-2004, 15:12
Jay and Jill went up the hill.... :D

Blue Jay
12-23-2004, 15:14
Smoky would have loved this one. Damn, I miss him. He would have the perfect Abby quote.

JillJones
12-23-2004, 15:22
You keep alluding to "facts", yet your only complaint is that she drinks, takes drugs (marihuana, you make it sound like she was shooting up), and was in the general vicinity of a dog that was not hers. What exactly was her action or actions that has such an extreme bug up you a##. Frankly it must have been something to keep you soooo angry all these months. You keep alluding to "facts", yet your only complaint is that she drinks, takes drugs (marihuana, you make it sound like she was shooting up),
Nice drama statement, which is not what, I did.

and was in the general vicinity of a dog that was not hers.
I know the dog was not hers and have stated that many times. However, she made a post here that IMO was a lie. I posted what I saw happen on the trail and my experience with the group of hikers with a dog she was hiking the trail with. I had many experiences on the trail with people who like to party and have no respect for any of their fellow hikers. She just happens to be one of the party train, who posted here at WhiteBlaze. Is there a problem to let people know that their actions affect others on the trail?

Frankly it must have been something to keep you soooo angry all these months.
Nice Drama again… Once again, just stating what happened and what the truth is about this girl and the group.. Is that so hard for you to understand? Anger for the most part gets nothing accomplished. As stated before, I was not able to on the trail to speak out, as were many others for the sake of peace and harmony while there. However, here we can in a honest, and no matter how cruel it might sound, the way I saw it. This thread is about many things. Dogs, drinking and drug use, shelter and trail behavior.

What exactly was her action or actions that has such an extreme bug up you a##.
If you want go back over the posts that I have written here, read them and answer them if you would like. You thinking I have an “extreme bug up my a##” is your attempt to avoid any of my replies to you… I guess you must have something inching close to your hind end as you feel the need to defend her and jump into this thread…

So I guess you can do one of 3 things.
1.Either stick to the points & facts that I posted if you want to be involved and answer them.
2.Continue your snide, uneducated replies.
3.Run and hide….

JillJones
12-23-2004, 15:33
Jill: Martha, just look at that young girl over there. I saw her in town going into a saloon with strange men. I thought our President assured us America would have moral values. In my day a youngins like that would be silent and sweet and help her poor mother, not having a good time.

Martha: Yes, she should be in a convent somewhere. I bet she's having S-E-X.

Jill: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Gee, I’ll jump in on the fun on this one….

Blue Jay: Mommy there’s a woman online who seems to know that I’m uneducated and insecure. What should I do?

Blue Jay's Mommy: Try and be funny and make it sound like it’s her problem and then that she’s a right wing ultra conservative. Everyone hates them…

Jill: They don’t get much more liberal then me. I have no problem with anyone doing whatever they want, whenever they want and as much as they want. As long as they do it and it's not bothering anyone else.

Once again it’s just your attempt to avoid the issue and try and regain some standing here at WB.

JillJones
12-23-2004, 15:37
Smoky would have loved this one. Damn, I miss him. He would have the perfect Abby quote. I'm sure he would for it seems you lack the capability and talent to find one for yourself.

Lone Wolf
12-23-2004, 15:39
K I S S I N G.... :d

Blue Jay
12-23-2004, 15:52
What exactly was her action or actions that has such an extreme bug up you a##.

If you want go back over the posts that I have written here, read them and answer them if you would like. You thinking I have an “extreme bug up my a##” is your attempt to avoid any of my replies to you… I guess you must have something inching close to your hind end as you feel the need to defend her and jump into this thread…


OK, I went back over your posts and still did not find a single action that you claim to have been done to you. You are clearly the one that is hiding.
Only that you hate to see people enjoying themselves, which you continue to repeat over and over.

Lucy Lulu
12-23-2004, 15:59
This is the Cat fight post...right? No, wait.....it IS a dog post!

Bloodroot
12-23-2004, 16:00
K I S S I N G.... :d
Is this a re-run of "As the Trail Turns"? (Oh, that's your line, sorry):D

Blue Jay
12-23-2004, 16:03
Blue Jay's Mommy: Try and be funny and make it sound like it’s her problem and then that she’s a right wing ultra conservative. Everyone hates them…

Jill: They don’t get much more liberal then me. I have no problem with anyone doing whatever they want, whenever they want and as much as they want. As long as they do it and it's not bothering anyone else.

Once again it’s just your attempt to avoid the issue and try and regain some standing here at WB.

Actually Blue Jay's Mommy is a right wing ultra conservative and even she thinks your a wee bit tight. She though prohibition was over. OK, we get it you don't like people doing things to themselves that bother you. As for regaining standing at WB, that is hysterical. Ask anyone I have never had standing at WB. Like you, they just put up with me.

Blue Jay
12-23-2004, 16:06
Is this a re-run of "As the Trail Turns"? (Oh, that's your line, sorry):D

It's "As the Stomach Turns". Come on, most of you were sick of dog stories any way.

Bloodroot
12-23-2004, 16:10
Yes very true! This has become more amusing.:) Good luck!

Bloodroot
12-23-2004, 16:19
"they just put up with me"
I hate to intervene, but you're right! I remember I joined this place and after a week or so and posted a not so popular thread. You were there to set me straight. I remember ending it with......

Blue Jay...Fly Away!

Still, I know you probably don't hear this often enough, but you're actually a pretty cool dude.:o

JillJones
12-23-2004, 16:27
OK, I went back over your posts and still did not find a single action that you claim to have been done to you. You are clearly the one that is hiding.
Only that you hate to see people enjoying themselves, which you continue to repeat over and over. OK, I went back over your posts and still did not find a single action that you claim to have been done to you.

Lets see… Here’s just a few quotes from me..

Well Seraphim, It was not the same for the people who had to put up with this dog and the owners. I was in one of the shelters when Kava, you and her owners came into one of the shelters. Not only did they not take care of the dog as it jumped all over the place, (Including my gear), but it barked enough for me to leave,

after a 20-mile day and your ready to fall asleep when a group comes in with a dog like the above group did then I have 2 choices? One, I can said something. Yet, being outnumbered 6 to 1 would not be a smart thing on my part. Two, get up and move on which I did. So while this immature 19 year-old girl Seraphim wishes to think the dog gave her love, it gave many of us around this group a whole difference experience. She failed to even consider what a pain in the butt the dog was for others. I didn’t say anything then, but here I will in the hope that, (And like you said, “we all need help remembering to be responsible in the woods.”) if her group decides to do the trail again, maybe they might give some thought as to who will remember the truth of what really took place on the trail and behave differently..


So it seems you failed to go back over the posts. A dog jumping all over my gear, barking and a group of people who I have seen totally wasted on their ass. I not only had encountered this girl and group before, but as Seraphim stated, “She would have fought for the dog”

You are clearly the one that is hiding?

As a matter of fact I’m coming right out in the open here and telling what happened… How is that hiding.

Only that you hate to see people enjoying themselves, which you continue to repeat over and over.

The idea behind this post is how people can better enjoy themselves on the trails and shelters. Do you not think people have the right to sleep? Here is maybe something you might be able to relate to… A group of Hell’s Angels decide to hike the trail.. Wherever you set up camp, they setup camp. Week after week. Now, it’s been known these boys like to party a little bit… So good old Blue Jay, (Which your name, I’m sure would go over real well with them) goes over and tells them to please not make so much noise so he can get his beauty sleep. Do you sit down and hide behind your computer screen and write out a funny, snide note to them. Or are you a brave man and go tell it to them like it is?

Ridge
12-23-2004, 16:31
As for dogs crapping on the trail, I’m still trying to work out an easy method. Right now, I get my dog off of the trail, and then bury it using local debris, although this is a real pain. Any suggestions would be welcome
I would like to know how you keep the dog from peeing on vegatation along the trail side where it runs down the legs of hikers behind you. Every dog I have been around will pee about every 10 yards or so to mark his territory. Leave the dog at home and consider taking up hiking and not just taking the dog out for a walk.

SGT Rock
12-23-2004, 16:35
Gee, I wish I could tell where this thread turned into a total mudball fight between a couple of posters so I could split it easier. I'll get to it I swear!

Ridge
12-23-2004, 16:39
[QUOTE=superman]<TABLE width=320 align=left background=../blank.gif><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.anotherzero.com/tj/photos/1331/pat%2Dme%2Dwinter.jpg (http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=18131&back=1)

Winter, Pat & Superman - Click picture to see full size
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> How do you keep the dog from pissing on the trail side vegatation, only to run down hikers legs when they come from behind. I have yet to see a dog pull an owner from the trail so they can pee./QUOTE]

JillJones
12-23-2004, 16:43
Actually Blue Jay's Mommy is a right wing ultra conservative and even she thinks your a wee bit tight. She though prohibition was over. OK, we get it you don't like people doing things to themselves that bother you. As for regaining standing at WB, that is hysterical. Ask anyone I have never had standing at WB. Like you, they just put up with me.
Just like I thought. The words of a coward. And now everyone can see that you run from answering questions and twist words when you get backed into a corner. I’ve done more then my share of drinking and having a good time, but not at the expense of others. However, it seems someone turned off the light at your house for you fail to see the big picture. However, You’re right about having no standing here, and might I had as well on the trail.

Now go have mommy tuck you into bed....

Well time for me to go spread some holiday cheer and leave this happy thread..

Nightly Night Blue Jay

FatMan
12-23-2004, 16:46
Gee, I wish I could tell where this thread turned into a total mudball fight between a couple of posters so I could split it easier. I'll get to it I swear!There are only about 10 posts on topic in this thread. The other 80 posts are nothing but a silly cat fight and the off topic rants posted over and over and over again by the same anti dog crowd.

I thought when this thread started it might actually turn into a constructive conversation. I was wrong. I don't know what happened to the edit key but I would appreciate it if you would remove my posts from this thread as it is not one that I want to be a part of.

Bloodroot
12-23-2004, 16:49
Gee, I wish I could tell where this thread turned into a total mudball fight between a couple of posters so I could split it easier. I'll get to it I swear!
LMAO..Don't be a mediator this time Top, go along with antagonizing....it's more fun.:jump

Ridge
12-23-2004, 17:15
of those who carry dogs. When I thru hiked I barely had the time to care for myself. I didn't have to worry about a dog, carry the extra food or have it slow me down. I didn't have to deal with motels, hostels etc not allowing the dog,
Wasn't tempted to try to slip him through the GSMNP or Baxter, or to arrange for a dog shuttle. Didn't have to evacuate an injured dog from the trail, all I have personally known that tried to hike the entire AT, did so. I will again state that if one is seriously into long distance hiking they will leave the dog at home and concentrate on the hike at hand.

Blue Jay
12-24-2004, 09:22
Here is maybe something you might be able to relate to… A group of Hell’s Angels decide to hike the trail.. Wherever you set up camp, they setup camp. Week after week. Now, it’s been known these boys like to party a little bit… So good old Blue Jay, (Which your name, I’m sure would go over real well with them) goes over and tells them to please not make so much noise so he can get his beauty sleep. Do you sit down and hide behind your computer screen and write out a funny, snide note to them. Or are you a brave man and go tell it to them like it is?

Actually I can relate to your analogy. I've owned a Harley since the 70's and know most of the local Angel chapter as Blue Jay. I would be thrilled if they would hike the trail. They actually follow a code of honor much like the military (since most of them are former military). They are also slandered by people like you. Rock, split it if you want. I still think this is more interesting than yet another dog story.

Blue Jay
12-24-2004, 09:24
Still, I know you probably don't hear this often enough, but you're actually a pretty cool dude.:o


Thank you, best Christmas gift so far.

minnesotasmith
12-24-2004, 14:26
Do tell everyone here at WB what prospective members have to do to be initiated into the HA. Rumor has it that it typically involves one's girlfriend, and publicly engaging in a particular act at a particularly uninviting time. Oh, and don't the HA run drugs as a matter of course? Real classy people.

Here is an article about bikers that even Blue Jay might find entertaining.
http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm (go to the column at the left, and click on #5, "Elegance in a Biker Bar".)

Excerpts:

"In those days Craig and I hung out for a while in the Berkeley Bar in a bad section of Denver. Craig was a big, baby-faced street fighter out of Chicago with a Special Forces past and a mean streak. He mostly drew skulls. He also like the Brandenburg concertos, and used to listen to them at his easel with headphones built into a World War II leather flying helmet.



The Berk was the home pit for the Sons of Silence, a bad biker club. If you haven't been in dives like this, don't start now. They swarm with huge bearded bozos with tattooed eyeballs and missing teeth and slow ominous grins and the IQ of a camshaft. You get the impression that they are evolving, but just not as fast as the rest of us. They'll hurt you. Either they like you or you're jelly. They don't worry about consequences. They can't remember them.

The Berk had Formica wood tables and smelled like a weight room. Rows of bottles waited patiently, but not for long, behind the counter and corpulent biker babes lolled about like stranded elephant seals. No one else did. When you have a biker clientele, you don't have any other kind of clientele."

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"Lurch just stared at his beer with his mouth hanging open. He didn't actually drool, probably because he couldn't remember how. I figured he had smoked too much brass polish or sniffed some bad glue.


During this prayer meeting, Lurch had An Idea. You could tell it was bubbling up inside him. His jaw closed slightly and a crazed focus came into his eyes. He was going to say something, as soon as he figured out what. His head came up. Yes, an idea. He almost had it. And then it left him. He collapsed with a soughing sound, like a punctured tire. Gone. A Real Idea, probably the unified field theory. And it got away. He stared sorrowfully at his beer. Eeyore of the Bikers."

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"Torque [a biker] had a face like a gorilla's armpit."
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"The chief instrument of intercourse in those regions was the pool cue. It was simple and direct and provided the hospitals with a brisk business."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"About then one of the biker babes got into it with the barmaid. I don't know what the raison de guerre was. The challenger was a gas-station Brunhilde like a sack of potatoes, except potatoes have better skin. Shrieking ensued. Barmaids in motorcycle hangouts do not back down. You could tell this one wasn't a Latin professor at Bryn Mawr. She screamed obscenities in a florid cloacal gush. The potato sack gave as good as she got.

Over Mountain Jerry's shoulder I saw the challenger's arm flash forward. She was throwing a bottle at the barmaid. Either her aim was bad or the barmaid ducked. Bottles shattered behind the bar and the mirror pretty much exploded. Slivers rained down on me, but missed my drink."

==================================================

Oh, yeah, go right ahead and ask a bunch of Hell's Angel's in the other 3/4 of a shelter to stop drinking, stop smoking weed and tobacco, to quiet down since it's almost 9:00 P.M., and to go to sleep, or for them to leave the shelter and go tent somewhere in the pouring rain. I expect you'd end up like the mirror in the preceding paragraph. Not a bunch of people I'd ever be happy to see in the shelter at the end of a high-mileage day on the Trail. Blue Jay, you might want to find a different group of people to hang with, and to consider admirable.

JillJones
12-24-2004, 22:36
Actually I can relate to your analogy. I've owned a Harley since the 70's and know most of the local Angel chapter as Blue Jay. I would be thrilled if they would hike the trail. They actually follow a code of honor much like the military (since most of them are former military). They are also slandered by people like you. Rock, split it if you want. I still think this is more interesting than yet another dog story.Actually I can relate to your analogy. I've owned a Harley since the 70's and know most of the local Angel chapter as Blue Jay.

No you don’t relate to the analogy. You just wanted to slip in you own a Harley. (Which I guess must mean, you’re a real man if you own one instead of something like, maybe a Honda) (Which, of course, has nothing to do with anything we’ve been talking about here anyway)
And since you’re such good friends with them, please prove it. Take a video cam and go yuck it up with the boys. Tell them about the broad with the bug up her a**. Sure, take some pictures with them and lets see you put it here. Don't forget, we need a way to verify that they know what their picture is being used for. I’m sure it will prove you’re not only a coward (Which is what the Hells Angels are as well) but also a liar and a big Bull S*****.
By the time they get done Bitch slapping your silly a** request, maybe you can come back here and try and be honest

You say, "I would be thrilled if they would hike the trail."

Why not take a poll and see how many of your fellow hikers here on White Blaze would,
"Be thrilled if they would hike the trail."

I really didn’t even think your ignorance could be this pathetic.

They actually follow a code of honor much like the military (since most of them are former military). They are also slandered by people like you.

Gee, Blue Jay, would you tell them how sorry I am. While you're apologizing for me, I’ll try and contact as many law enforcement departments, prisons, newspapers, news stations, rape survivors, and the thousands of victims of violence by the hands of outlaw motorcycle gangs, (which includes the Hell's Angels) and tell them that thanks to Blue Jay, that after all these years, we were all wrong.

However, I’ll go back to the subject of this thread. You made an analogy Post #25 on this thread. Where you were trying to prove a point by how scared hikers would be if:

"I decide it would be fun to walk the trail with an AK-47. It's not loaded, and also has all internal parts removed. I know it's harmless, but many people would be terrified to walk past me while I pointed it at them. But since I want to bring my "pet" with me, screw their reaction. This is exactly what dog people accomplish."

(I actually thought it was a good analogy) These are your words.. So tell me, what’s the difference? Not only is there a dog here, but a group of people who are wasted. In your analogy, you’re trying to show the perception of what a dog does (In your opinion, instills fear) to some people.
Well, each year, millions of violent crimes are committed against individuals by individuals. Go to the Department of Justice web site and check out the stats. The number one contributor to violent crime: Alcohol and drug abuse. (Noticed I said abuse and not use. There is a difference)
So, here is this group with a dog. Not only a dog, but also they’re under the influence, which clouds their judgment. So over there, you’re telling people not to bring a dog on the trail, then turn around and now find fault because I have a problem with a group of individuals who have a dog and are high?
What if the guy you were arguing with answered your little analogy like you did with mine? I would think it might sound something like:

Actually I can relate to your analogy. I've owned an AK-47 since the 70's and know most of the boys over at the NRA (National Rifle Association). They actually follow a code of honor much like the military (since most of them are former military). Most of the boys over there know me as M-16.. I would love it if more people would hike the trail with AK-47’s. (It’s OK if they’re stoned or high as well) They are also slandered by people like you.

Yet, once again, your answer was just a smoke screen to avoid the question.

You remind me of the school/town bully. It's discovered, he's just a coward and confronted. Now, all he can do is run and hide behind his teacher or mothers dress, and pop his head out from behind and stick out his tongue. Instead of dealing with the facts and answering anything, you pop in and out with little messages.

However, you have accomplished one thing since you decided to put you’re 2 cents into a discussion between myself and another poster. You like being a Verbal Bully. Trying to wear people out by intimidation. Yet, I think now, everyone can see you for what you are.
In my eyes, you’re a coward, a liar, and a hypocrite, which hides behind a loud bark with no bite. Yes, an empty pathetic shell of an individual who has posted over 1,339 messages and yet only started 3 threads. You like to jump in when you think you can win and then run and hide when you can’t.
I’ve tried to get you to look at the facts and I see it’s useless and time consuming. In many ways, at times, I’ve even lowered myself to your standards and to any posters I’ve offended, I’m sorry.
As with anything we do, I can see I might have handled this differently with Saraphim. However, I can see that this thread for me has enabled someone, like Blue Jay to suggest, they would be thrilled to bring a known group of outlaws, who love terrorizing people, is beyond understanding. Many Hell’s Angels, and other outlaw motorcycle gangs are rapists, murderers, and at best just plain punks. Yet Blue Jay thinks I’ve slandered them. So, I’ve decided, I will leave this thread. I will not respond to any more of what I consider his dangerous and immature answers. I said dangerous, because I wonder how many females on the trail would feel safe if Blue Jay, or anyone else for that matter, sent a letter to any of the Hell’s Angles, and other outlaw motorcycle gangs, informing them of Shelter locations and how many single female hikers are on the trail and invited them on out.

Blue Jay tried to make it sound like I’m jealous of a very troubled girl. He wanted to make it sound like I don’t want people to have a good time, and that I’m against drinking, sex and anything else. I went to hike the AT to find many things. And yes, peace and quiet at times was one of them.

Rock, split it if you want. I still think this is more interesting than yet another dog story.

Sorry, Blue Jay, but it’s not interesting or even funny and if anything, your suggestions should be removed.

Seraphim
12-24-2004, 22:49
hello friends, tess here. i didn't hike the trail this year but i did do some section hiking with seraphim this summer. i would just like to say one thing, anyone who has a problem with seraphim needs to seriously let it go. yelling at her about a dog that's not hers, or her behavior is ludicrous. she's an adult, she is responsible enough to take care of herself and others. yes, she gets drunk, so do i, so does every other person her age. yes, she gets high, so do i, so does every other person her age. you were all there once too, remember? or have you forgotten what it's like to be a kid on a crazy adventure, trying to figure out what the hell is going on in your life? what she does on or off the trail (unless it involves physical harm in some way) is solely her concern. i've read some of these posts against her and i feel like no matter what, i'll never be out of highschool. if hikers, supposedly the most laid-back, chill people in the world, can piss and moan about something as trivial as someone getting drunk/high, then i feel afraid for the way society is heading, because it doesn't bode well for future generations. look at it this way, you've been off the trail for over a month now, don't think about seraphim if she pisses you off. you're not going to see her again, so why stress? especially since you waited so long to say anything about it.

~tess
p.s. i just want to remind all of you that hate and love are the same emotions, on the opposite ends of the spectrum. it takes as much time and energy to hate someone as it does love them. so how much time do you waste on people you don't like?

JillJones
12-24-2004, 23:14
hello friends, tess here. i didn't hike the trail this year but i did do some section hiking with seraphim this summer. i would just like to say one thing, anyone who has a problem with seraphim needs to seriously let it go. yelling at her about a dog that's not hers, or her behavior is ludicrous. she's an adult, she is responsible enough to take care of herself and others. yes, she gets drunk, so do i, so does every other person her age. yes, she gets high, so do i, so does every other person her age. you were all there once too, remember? or have you forgotten what it's like to be a kid on a crazy adventure, trying to figure out what the hell is going on in your life? what she does on or off the trail (unless it involves physical harm in some way) is solely her concern. i've read some of these posts against her and i feel like no matter what, i'll never be out of highschool. if hikers, supposedly the most laid-back, chill people in the world, can piss and moan about something as trivial as someone getting drunk/high, then i feel afraid for the way society is heading, because it doesn't bode well for future generations. look at it this way, you've been off the trail for over a month now, don't think about seraphim if she pisses you off. you're not going to see her again, so why stress? especially since you waited so long to say anything about it.

~tess
p.s. i just want to remind all of you that hate and love are the same emotions, on the opposite ends of the spectrum. it takes as much time and energy to hate someone as it does love them. so how much time do you waste on people you don't like?My last message was going to be my last post. However, I just read your message. In my last post, I did say, that I had wished I handled it differently with Seraphim and for that I’m sorry. You’re right that we all have been there. I’m not going to debate anything about the issue. It’s so easy to get caught up with words here and I should have sent a private message to her and talked about it, and not posted it in the thread. It was not meant to slander her, for I do realize she is young and like all of us have a long way to go in life. So Seraphim, to you I’m saying I’m sorry for my words that caused you harm…. I wish you the best…

Pencil Pusher
12-26-2004, 18:08
Look at what I missed out on...

Blue Jay
12-27-2004, 09:38
My last message was going to be my last post. However, I just read your message. In my last post, I did say, that I had wished I handled it differently with Seraphim and for that I’m sorry. You’re right that we all have been there. I’m not going to debate anything about the issue. It’s so easy to get caught up with words here and I should have sent a private message to her and talked about it, and not posted it in the thread. It was not meant to slander her, for I do realize she is young and like all of us have a long way to go in life. So Seraphim, to you I’m saying I’m sorry for my words that caused you harm…. I wish you the best…

Sorry, I was out hiking. All this vitriol and then you apologize.

Seraphim
12-28-2004, 02:17
I, too, have been out hiking, and getting high and drunk! woooooow. I cannot believe you, J Jones... YOu said that all of this bull**** was "useless and time consuming". WEll, I hope you read this, because everything you said about me was ridiculous. And a waste of time. My friend Tess, to all of you that met her out of Damascus "HookaH" is her trailname.. told you everything you needed to hear- except I need to tell you what I think. I think you SHOULD have handled this differently. I think you took things WAY too far. I think no matter how high, drunk or ****ed up I get, I still respect everyone. I am never out of common sense or intellegence, no matter how under the influence I am. And I cannot believe how much you took my behaviour out of context. Put it in perspective- no matter what, I am a hiker. How far, how long, under what circumstances- I have summited, I have completed a dream. I stuck it out in some pretty damn dire situations, and I fought to get to Lady K. So if you want to take a minor thing like a bit of pot and whiskey and put that over my head like it cancels out every thing I have accomplished in my young age, you can go get some peace and quiet on the trail now- there won't be any crazy, out-of-control youngsters out ruining the trail in the snow. So if you want it, take it. Or kiss my ass. If you are sincerely sorry, then I accept it. But I will never forget how much anger and hostility is out there on the trail, and even moreso on here. And it is because of you, because of people who think everything should be perfect and clean on the trail. Make a point or better yet, smoke a joint! Mellow out! Aren't we all out there to GET DIRTY?!!!!!!!! howls to the GAME croo of 2004! Oh yeah, Jill, please tell me who you are so I can put a face to the words... and remember to skip trail days because it's nothin but a big ol southern Woodstock.

willyhort0w2
12-28-2004, 02:40
Good thing I gave up reading this thread I dee that once again it it back to having nothing to do about training a dog for some sort of trail. Hold on, are we even still talking about a trail

minnesotasmith
12-28-2004, 03:23
If getting drunk or high is no big deal at all: then, if you are ever in a major traffic accident and get seriously injured, how about the ambulance driver is drunk as a skunk (so he can't drive over 20 mph, and that unsafely), and the trauma surgeon at the hospital is high as a kite on LSD or an equivalent, and thinks you are unharmed where you are injured, and injured where you are unharmed? Would that be OK? How about you are on trial for Murder One (you are innocent), but your attorney defending you is high on something, makes multiple mistakes during the trial, you get convicted, and get strapped onto the gurney to get lethal injection? It's just getting high, so it's no big deal, right?

I don't think it's that great an idea to have the guys who design the bridges you drive over, fly the airplanes you ride in, control the missiles with nuclear weapons that defend you, etc., really need to use booze on the job -- or mind-altering drugs ever. Frankly, anything important and booze or drugs do not mix.

White Oak
12-28-2004, 03:28
I LOVE the smell of gun powder in the morning...
smells like victory. :D

White Oak
12-28-2004, 04:12
If you can’t see that anyone who spends as much time on and off the trail getting drunk and high has a major problem in their lives, then you need to get educated. She’s a troubled kid who has IMO a drinking and drug problem. She is a major liar and you defending her just helps her think she is on the right track.

I no have no doubt that she made friends out there who will defend her and her actions. However, 20 years from now if she is still alive, (Which I hope she is) she just might look back with deep regret. (Just as each and every one of us have about a time in our past)<O:p</O:p


Wow. Talk about bitterness. I see Jill J is 40 years old, and is really ragging off at an uninhibited 19 y.o. who is simply living like a 19 y.o. What's the beef, Jill? Didn't let go and enjoy life when you were young? Bitter now?


I bet when Seraphim is 40 and looks back on her youth, she'll be glad she lived wild and free while she was young and had the chance to.

White Oak
12-28-2004, 04:19
Shows that you really don't know anything… I could be a lesbian.
Ohhhhhhhhh?

Blue Jay
12-28-2004, 08:41
Minnisota, I know you're not a hiker, but when most of us are out on the trail we rarely do any of the activities you spoke about. I think you are the one with a drinking problem.

Peter Mossberg
12-28-2004, 10:35
Personally, I would rather share the shelter with drunk and stoned people, than dogs.

At least when a drunk chick tries to hump my leg, I can actually enjoy it.

JillJones
12-28-2004, 16:35
I've moved my comments and answers to the "Off Topic" section. I started a thread there which is, Questions? Solutions? It Depends

SGT Rock
12-28-2004, 16:40
Cool, now that is what I like to see, folks doing the stuff on their own.

minnesotasmith
12-28-2004, 17:21
Although, I haven't yet figured out what (if anything) that might be.

"Minnisota, I know you're not a hiker... I think you are the one with a drinking problem."

I have repeatedly posted about my hikes, both recently and in the past (such as the 6 weeks solid I hiked around W. TX, NM, and UT, and hiked all over Taiwan, which has mountains similiar to the Rockies). I simply have not kept up on gear changes in recent years, and have only about 100 miles on the AT, which I expect to triple well before summer.

Further, not only do I not do drugs, I drink perhaps 4x a year, never more than a single small glass of wine with dinner with family.

Blue Jay, you were wrong about bikers being desirable potential additions to the AT, and practically everything else I've seen you post on recently. Are you this clueless in your profession as well?

Blue Jay
12-29-2004, 08:46
Blue Jay, you were wrong about bikers being desirable potential additions to the AT, and practically everything else I've seen you post on recently.

This is truly the highest compliment anyone has ever given me, thank you for this post.

superman
12-29-2004, 08:58
Training your dog to go off the trail is one of the easy things on the trail. It's easy to train a dog to go off the trail to pee or what ever. The hard part is training the people to go off the trail to pee, etc. Dogs are easy to train by example, repetition and they want to please. It's people that are difficult...not dogs. I would not have thought that so many hikers would foul the trails and shelters they use.


Superman and Winter GA>ME 2000

Skeemer
12-29-2004, 10:27
MS wrote in part:
Blue Jay...Are you this clueless in your profession as well?

We're not sure BJ has ever held a job.

I do think he would enjoy Atlas Shrugged if he could finish the book.

bearbait2k4
12-30-2004, 18:19
The point to this seems to be that dogs are not the problem, rather that the people who bring their dogs on the trail are the problem.

I have seen many well-behaved dogs out on the trail, and some mis-behaving dogs. I have seen quite a few owners bringing their dogs on property and premises that didn't allow dogs, only to blatantly ignore requests to have their dogs removed and to justify their actions by simply stating the dog "should" be allowed there.

Dogs are trainable. Dogs usually can and will do almost anything you train them to do, including staying on leash, and being obedient around strangers. Dog owners, however, are not so easy about being trained. I am not at all trying to say that all dog owners have this problem. Not at all. However, we have seen what a few bad apples can do to the whole bunch. We've also seen how "super polite" people can be when they have a problem with dogs, or people, but just don't want to upset the herd. We can't pass judgement on people who have withheld from giving their opinion on the trail, when we've all probably been in the same situation ourselves and have probably chosen to ignore a situation instead of deal with it head-on. Of course, it's not a good idea to bring it up after the fact and lament about what a problem some people or some dogs were either, that of which I'm sure we've all learned with this post. The best thing to do is to confront a person with respect when there is a problem out on the trail, but we're all human, and nobody is perfect.

But, in the end, the best thing for a dog owner who wants to hike with their dog to understand is that there are people out there that don't like dogs. There are people out there that don't want to be around dogs. There are certainly people that don't want to sleep with a dog in a shelter, and people that don't want to run into an unleashed dog in the middle of the woods. It's the same thing if you smoke or drink on the trail. You are potentially bringing something on the trail that other people don't wish to be around, and the best thing to do is ask people what their opinion is, or just avoid people you don't know when setting camp for the night.

I've run into unleashed dogs on the trail myself. You get an uneasy feeling, because you don't know where that dog came from, or what kind of upbringing or training it's had. Even if the owners are a couple of feet, or a couple hundred feet behind, yelling, "it's okay, he's friendly," it's not okay, because you don't know the dog or the people, or what they consider to be okay. Friendly could mean walking right by you while wagging his tail, or jumping up on you with their muddy paws, something which you may not want to deal with.

Just keep these kind of things in mind when you bring your pet into foreign areas with strangers, train your dog accordingly, and you should be okay.

saimyoji
12-30-2004, 18:35
I started this thread to ellicit advice to people with dogs who may not realize that the presence of their dog may not be appreciated, and to provide those dog owners with anecdotal advice on how to train their dogs. I guess not many people here have dogs, or know how to train dogs for this purpose, hence the lack of constructive discussion.

To those who did provide helpful info., advice: thanks! :)

Is there anyone else out there with something constructive to add?
Please avoid the following statements: dogs and owners need to be trained, its the owners not the dogs, keep all dogs out of shelters, shoot the dogs and piss/crap on the owners' property...
These things have been stated repeatedly.

Thanks again to all who contributed. Oh, BTW, I may be hiking with a dog soon!! :D

bearbait2k4
12-30-2004, 18:55
Saimyoji, do you have the ability to currently take your dog out on walks in areas with, I wouldn't say huge, but sizeable populations? It's good to take a dog out and see how it deals with the general public, and you can usually go from there.

When you are training it around people, always keep it on a leash. Not just because it will keep the dog from bothering other people, but it gives you complete control over the dog, and that is something you need to let the dog know - - that you are in control, and they are subservient to you. That could sound mean to animal lovers, but it's true. If you use common commands to get it to heal to you, or to have it come to you, put these commands into use when around other people.

It's not like you're going to be running into shopping mall crowds on the trail, but teaching the dog to get used to running into strangers is a good thing. A leash is an important thing to train the dog to, as well. It doesn't matter how much you can train a dog, if the dog sees a wild animal run across the path, it's instinct will kick in and it may take off for hours. I had a friend last year who's dog took off after a squirrel, and came back hours later, sans pack and collar.

And, I know that a lot of things have seemed pretty redundant as far as dog ediquitte on the trail, especially when it comes to people who don't even hike with a dog on a regular basis, but please take heed to what these people have to say. Afterall, people who don't own dogs and are not used to them know of how they will react to a dog on the trail more than dog owners. Not to mention that any one of these people posting could potentially be a person you run into on a trail in the future. Any advice is good advice.

Just keep in mind that it is not anyone's trail, it's everyone's trail.

Chip
12-30-2004, 19:04
[QUOTE=superman]Training your dog to go off the trail is one of the easy things on the trail. It's easy to train a dog to go off the trail to pee or what ever. The hard part is training the people to go off the trail to pee, etc. Dogs are easy to train by example, repetition and they want to please. It's people that are difficult...not dogs. I would not have thought that so many hikers would foul the trails and shelters they use.


Superman and Winter GA>ME 2000[/QUOT
GREAT response Superman :clap !! Also your first response was excellent!!! I too agree with your statement regarding how to train a dog to go off trail to pee or take a dump. People with dogs should bury the solid waste. I know that some will bag it and carry it out (LNT). I have seen far too many spots along the trail & shelters where folks leave TP laying around and don't even bother to bury their own waste. Glad to see another dog owner who knows
how to hike with a dog. There are very few of us who do and too many who don't, so we lose the respect of our fellow hikers which is too bad. Don't want to convert them , just want them to know that there are some of us who repect all hikers who hike the AT and other trails. Anyhow thanks again !!

Happy Trails,
Chip ;)

minnesotasmith
12-31-2004, 05:34
"Just keep in mind that it is not anyone's trail, it's everyone's trail."

And, "anyone" means HUMANS (and secondarily native wildlife). A dog is not a hiker, even if it is brought onto a hiking trail; it is and remains a domestic animal, no more. "Hiker" means a human being.

Don't agree? Then, consider all the times someone says "I saw a hiker, and asked him a question.", or "I am a hiker.". I don't ever see the modifier "human" placed in front of the word "hiker". That is because there is no need for it; everyone but "dogs for drugs" people understand what is being referred to.

Blue Jay
12-31-2004, 09:02
We're not sure BJ has ever held a job.

I do think he would enjoy Atlas Shrugged if he could finish the book.

I've read and enjoyed all Rand's books. I believe she takes objectivism a little too far. Her utter contempt for the poor assures objectivism will never be a main stream philosophy. I suggest you read Gravity's Rainbow and get back to me.

As for my holding jobs, I own my own home free and clear with enough land for horses. My father died when I was young, every last thing I have, I've earned. The fact that I have the ability to dumpster dive and live on no money is merely an adaptation to assure that if a major catastrophe occurs and there are only rats and cockroches left, I will be one of them.

Seraphim
01-01-2005, 10:51
My goodness, Minnesota, where IS your heart? The first time I asked, I was just kidding.... But now I am actually wondering. And it makes me sad... And then I remember I'm not you, that I am a pleasant person with no real stress or worry holding me back from where I'm trying to get to. Do you have a dream, MS?

mdionne
01-01-2005, 14:42
I'm not going to get into dog etiquette part of this thread even though well trained dogs are best for hiking. I do think, for most breeds, that hiking the entire AT with dogs is cruel. Most of the thru hikers I know sent their dogs home at some point. Dogs of many breeds because it was too hot and/or pads were wearing thin. I hiked with a guy who had a small dog that hated the hike after a few hundred miles of the trail. He would find yellow blazers and they would take the dog to the next town. By N.H. the dog would run off the trail to hikers hitching into town. It worked out pretty well for him. However, I met a girl in fontana dam that pushed her dog to do 25 mile days. It is unnatural for a dog to hike even 12 miles a day. Maybe five or six at most. Naturally a dog would only move as far as it takes to make a kill, then would rest for a day or two for digestion and energy conservation. I'm also not sure how many hikers are aware of the dangers of heat exhaustion for a dog. I wasn't until my dog died of it a couple of years ago. It takes over dogs very quickly, and if you don't get their core temperature down within a half hour the dog will die or suffer major brain damage and need to be put to sleep. With that said, I would take a wet, stinky dog with the ****s in a shelter anytime over Minnesota Smith. :bse

bearbait2k4
01-01-2005, 15:59
Actually, MS, there's no rule or law excluding dogs on the trail. So, they're allowed.

Sorry, you lose. The dogs stay.

minnesotasmith
01-03-2005, 00:02
Seraphim said: "Do you have a dream, MS?"

Of course; multiple. Aside from through-hiking the AT, here's where I discussed another one I have at length:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5605&highlight=alaska

As a piece of advice, until you put your dreams above your drug use, I would be pessimistic about you reaching any of them that are at all complex or demanding. Drugs or dreams worth having; pick one.

================================================== =

Blue Jay: "Her [Ayn Rand's] utter contempt for the poor"

Correction: she thought that they should have the same rights as anyone else, which is to rise as far as they are able, to keep all that they make, to make their own decisions (right or wrong), to reap the consequences (good or bad) of their decisions as any adult should, and to have the right to be free from coercion. The only appropriate limit on their freedom in her eyes is that they are in turn not free to force others in any way. They do NOT have the right to steal from others, whether they use a gun themselves, or resort to a government to use guns to steal for them.

================================================== =

Bearbait said: "Actually, MS, there's no rule or law excluding dogs on the trail."

But there are laws against dogs running up to strangers and touching them (or even threatening to do so) without advance overt spoken permission[which is an assault], damaging or stealing their gear and food, etc. It's along the same lines as it may be legal along most of the AT to carry a firearm, but it sure as h*ll is NOT OK to aim it at other people or their children, repeatedly dry-fire it, and wonder aloud if THIS time there will be a round in the chamber. Would it be OK if that repeatedly happened to you? That is what a dog owner does when they set a dog loose on or near the Trail.

Even a dog properly fitted with a biteproof muzzle and anti-jump halter (as it should be IMO if it is off its owner's property, even leashed) can still be a major PITA if it wrongly is set loose (wrongly defined as off its owner's private property). Any ignorant "I'm the only one in the world with any rights" AH who lets a dog run loose on the Trail is knowingly and intentionally playing Russian roulette with other people's rights, and (judging from the "dogs-for-drugs" posters on this thread such as you) is likely to laugh about any damage other hikers take to their hike. Do you steal money as well as other people's hikes, Bearbait? Given what your attitude on letting dogs loose on the Trail reveals about your ethical system, it would follow.

My advice? Educate the would-be hikers that are capable of being educated that dogs must be on-leash 100.000000% of the time they are brought near the Trail by a hiker (if even brought along), and if their dog EVER even ONCE inconveniences another hiker, they are in the wrong, and the dog should immediately leave the Trail, never to return.

What about the dog-bringing hikers that are NOT capable of learning even one new concept? Bring a can of bear (not pepper) spray for any stray (e.g., loose) dogs that approach you, saving some for any people that take umbrage and (not or) threaten/attack you. If you have to hose down any "owners" (a real dog owner would care enough about their dog to have it restrained, hence the quotation marks) while defending yourself, do so without hesitation. Then, while they are blindly rolling around in the fetal position and wailing, take out their wallets long enough to write down their name, address, etc. Then, with a clear conscience, at the next trail town, make a complaint at the police station, where that person is charged with crimes both for what their animal did, and for what they tried to do, so that they will be arrested, have to make multiple court appearances in a state in which they probably do not live, and hopefully be jailed for a while so that they at least are not in a position to let loose dogs on the Trail while in prison with their peers. Lastly, with a song in your heart (because the Trail will be a better place for your actions), continue your hike, all the way to Katahdin, with the thanks of other real hikers assured.

saimyoji
01-03-2005, 02:02
I've decided that as much as dogs may play a part in my life, they do not play a part in my hiking life. I request of you all who have dogs :see all of the above posts, and other threads on this site and others. Leave Fido home, eh?

MinnSmith: I feel compelled to remind you that if you press charges against someone, you have the obligation to face them in court (you can't accuse them and run off down the trail) which would hold up your hike until the matter was solved, or you'd have to return to the place yourself. This is why many people get off scott-free for many misdemeanor charges: the accusers just can't be bothered to show up in court (this includes cops). So, if you plan make the offender eat your proverbial ****, you'd better plan on sticking around to make sure they have the proper motivation!

I believe there are local and state laws regarding pets on the trail, each must be taken case by case, but aren't there places on the trail (National Parks, etc.) where dogs are prohibited?

minnesotasmith
01-03-2005, 05:37
The witness generally has to be present, UNLESS (under some circumstances) a deposition is given. That can be done from almost any town. Too, the indicted person has to show up no matter what, or they are guilty of fleeing/failure to show, and ANOTHER arrest warrant is issued for them.

Looks like it would just be better for hikers who own dogs to leave them behind when they hike on marked trails, or at least have someone a bit brighter show them (as slowly and repeating as many times as needed) how these leash things work. :-?

superman
01-03-2005, 10:25
This dog thing is easy:ffice:office" /><O:p></O:p>

1. Train your dog for the trail<O:p></O:p>

2. Carry a tent for you and your dog<O:p></O:p>

3. Don’t worry about the anti-dog people since they tend to be on the Internet...not the trails<O:p></O:p>



Superman and Winter GA>ME 2000

Seraphim
01-05-2005, 11:28
Yea, what Superman said, Samyoji! Don't be discouraged by all of these negative anti-dog hikers! I never saw anyone complain about Kaya WHILE we were hiking, even though she wasn't well-behaved sometimes. But anyway, it is your perrogative!

MS, you might want to reconsider thru-hiking next year... Some of the stuff thru hikers do is pretty offensive, by the sound of all this WHINING! "As a piece of advice, until you put your dreams above your drug use, I would be pessimistic about you reaching any of them that are at all complex or demanding. Drugs or dreams worth having; pick one." Your hike in Alaska sounds superb. No one to bother you, right? I have lots of dreams, and have already accomplished one lifelong dream, one lifetime achievement. And I smoked pot WHILE hiking and did just fine. Being an alcoholic and being an addict is different than smoking pot and drinking. I'm not an addict, never have been, never will be. Because I have willpower. And though I'm not that old, I've wisdom. Dont act like I'm a moron- you seem to dislike me too. Stop criticizing me and trying to get me down- I won't have it! I'm above that, and I wish you were too. My dreams are all worth-having and I will continue to chase them with passion and virtue, living life to it's fullest and paying attention on the ride. And I'll probably smoke some more of that good ol' mary jane. Get that stick outta your *&$, MS.

Lone Wolf
01-05-2005, 11:34
Smokin dope and gettin ******ed up is cool. :rolleyes:

ripple
01-05-2005, 11:55
so is tagging dumpsters :cool:

superman
01-05-2005, 12:27
Don't get me wrong. I'm as offended by anyone else by dogs that aren't right for the trail. Training is not a small matter...if the dog isn't ready don't bring it on. It takes time an effort to train a dog for hiking. The dog has to be absolutely socialized to people and to other animals. Winter has been about a foot away from skunks, porcupines, snakes, deer and bear without a problem. She doesn't bother them and they don't bother her. I've had many dogs over the years and Winter is the only one that has the right tempermant for the AT. You need to explore your dogs abilities on weekend hikes before thinking of distance hiking. It's not a small matter. Some dogs are easy to travel with and some aren't. For the sake of everyone on the trail you need to answer these questions in advance as much for you and your dog. None of it is too hard if you simply like being with your dog. I'd like to take credit for Winter but she's one of the smartest dogs I've ever met and I suspect that she reads my mind. Winter and I hiked the Long Trail in 99 as a training and gear shake down before doing the AT in 00.

minnesotasmith
01-05-2005, 13:42
You sound high again. If you use pot, your willpower is s**t, proven by your drug habit. Out of curiosity, what even harder stuff have you tried? (You're probably too ashamed to answer that.)

Oh, and no pothead (nor anyone else) is going to talk me out of my through-hike. It's not hikers in general that I have a problem with, not at all; it's that tiny minority who let animals physically capable of injuring other hikers loose on the Trail because they think it's "fun". Such people probably would think it was a hoot when that anti-hiking clown (discussed on a previous thread) emptied trash bags full of used toilet paper on the Trail, or when near Rt. 19E those fishhooks were stretched across the Trail at eye level; philosophically, it's the same type of behavior, done for the same sort of motivation. It is the act of a sadist or vandal, something only someone with the ethics of a sociopath would commit upon innocent strangers, people who want nothing but to have a good hike.

The irony is that when a hiker has a dog along, it is such a degradation of their chances to make it to Katahdin, that having a dog generally marks you to other, knowledgeable hikers as not being serious about through-hiking. Having a dog is kind of like having all your clothes be 100% cotton. See you at Katahdin? Probably not.

bearbait2k4
01-05-2005, 14:08
MinnesotaSmith, I may or may not speak for all of those who have thru-hiked or attempted a thru-hike in the past, but anyway - - I don't really want you speaking for any of us, in regards to what we think about people with dogs.

There have been plenty of people that have made the hike with dogs.

And by the way - - there is little that is more comfortable than a cotton shirt on a warm summer day out on the trail.

superman
01-05-2005, 14:18
also:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

The completion rate is about the same for people with dogs or without them.:bse

minnesotasmith
01-05-2005, 14:39
You said:

"The completion rate is about the same for people with dogs or without them."

That is completely at variance with what Ridge saw during his through-hike. (See his posts earlier on this thread.) Can you explain that?

superman
01-05-2005, 19:04
My observation is that it's about the same as hiking the whole AT with another person.

saimyoji
01-05-2005, 19:23
Advice: Ignore the people who bash you here. I was bashed not long ago for stating my favorite type of Japanese beer, by someone far less experienced and knowledgable than I. Keep in mind your audience when you post here, some of the things you say will be accepted by some, and will offend others.

You seem to be a very spirited, confident young woman. Nothing wrong with that. I was exactly like that when I was 19, only regret one choice I made from my youth (won't reveal that for all the tea in China, well...maybe for ALL the tea...).

Point is, try not offend people with your passion. People here are VERY forgiving of others who genuinely show respect, compassion, and a love for the AT...regardless of your opinion on politics, society, economics, beer, hiking poles, batteries, cameras, boots, tents, shelters, dogs, and more recently SWORDS! and any other issue you can fabricate. Case in point: wacocelt.

Trying to convince people that getting high (however you do it) is acceptable is a losing battle. Just be discreet, be respectful and be yourself, and no one will bother you too much. Most hikers aren't bothered by the things people do to themselves, but when you bring your party to their space, I think you have to expect some complaints.

Hope you don't turn us all off because of a few flame posts. :)

Jack Tarlin
01-05-2005, 19:36
Superman:

I don't know where you get your statistics from regarding completion rates.

My guess is that FEWER people that start with dogs finish, the main reason being that in many cases, the dog is forced to go home for one reason or another, and the owner doesn't wish to continue hiking without it. I've seen this happen on many occasions.

I know of several folks who ran out of time and didn't finish because their dogs (older and larger ones) had health problems which slowed them down; I also know of at least two people who were forced to end their trip because they ran out of money, partly because of costly and unexpected veterinary bills.

In short, I think while people may derive various benefits (primarily psychological) from hiking with their pet, in the end, your chances of completing the Trail are probably diminished if you go with a dog. Not by much, probably, but it is something to think about.

Lastly, remember that there are many places on the Trail where hikers with dogs are not welcome. If you happen to arrive at one of these hostels or hotels at a point on the Trail where you really need its services (due to fatigue, stress, injury, horrible weather, etc.), it can be extremely discouraging to skip the rest stop or keep moving on when you don't really want to, all because you opted to hike with a dog.

smokymtnsteve
01-05-2005, 22:46
Smokin dope and gettin ******ed up is cool. :rolleyes:

greetings from AK the land of the Trail Do...I'm working on training some dogs for the Yukon Quest,,,the toughest Dog sled race in the world...

over 1000 miles in 10-14 days so a dog should certainly be able to walk the
AT in 6 months,

and as for horrible weather on the AT..what a joke...might not be able to get into a hostel...hahaha...U should see the weather here in AK,,,-27 F...but U still run the dogs.

hope U are well..LW,,,lots of x-drinkers take up smoking,,, :D

Youngblood
01-06-2005, 00:35
greetings from AK the land of the Trail Do...I'm working on training some dogs for the Yukon Quest,,,the toughest Dog sled race in the world...

over 1000 miles in 10-14 days so a dog should certainly be able to walk the
AT in 6 months,

and as for horrible weather on the AT..what a joke...might not be able to get into a hostel...hahaha...U should see the weather here in AK,,,-27 F...but U still run the dogs.

hope U are well..LW,,,lots of x-drinkers take up smoking,,, :DSo, how much daylight you getting these days?

Dudeboard
01-06-2005, 01:44
and as for horrible weather on the AT..what a joke...might not be able to get into a hostel...hahaha...U should see the weather here in AK,,,-27 F...but U still run the dogs.
At least its a dry cold in central AK, not like the clammy wet cold you have on the AT. Hope you're having a good time, take some pics and post em here.

Also dude you need to change the location by your name from from Atlanta to Healy, AK. I don't think the folks in Georgia have huskies running around in -27.

superman
01-06-2005, 08:37
Jack Tarlin<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Just my opinion based on my particular observations. I'd heard your assertion for years but I've also seen tons of human hiking partners not go the distance for a whole range of reasons. My point is that every time a hiker joins his hike to another’s hike (human or pet) he increases the chance of not finishing.<o:p></o:p>

Yes, there are many places that are not dog friendly but there are plenty of places on the AT that are. I've never found it to be a problem for Winter and I. It was close to a problem on one occasion down south. There was only one motel in a very small town. The owner had a big sign in the window the said "NO PETS". The owner looked and sort of acted like Boss Hog sitting in his lawn chair in from of the sign. I said something like I see your sign but I have a well behaved and trained dog here. So the owner said, "What can your dog do?" So Winter did a whole bunch of tricks. The owner then said "OK, the dog has a room.... now what can you do?" LOL

Seraphim
01-08-2005, 14:01
No, I will not turn you all off! You're all hikers, aren't you? While I admit that many of my posts have been heated, and many of those posts have been in response to others' comments, I fail to see where I said smoking pot was cool. Just because I am open about it doesn't mean I'm a drug addict or a pusher. I didn't bring it into discussion originally, J Jill did, or it wouldn't be on these posts. But now that it is out, everyone is calling me on it. Thanks for the heads up, Sam, because I have been getting bashed, and I don't see any reason for it. I had never really posted much here before all this, and it left a bad taste in my mouth for awhile. So, now, I will only post in response to who or what is just and good in the world... Or maybe just the things that catch my eye, like usual... LIGHTEN UP, YA'LL!

steve hiker
01-08-2005, 14:18
Seraphim,

You gotta lighten up youself, this is the internet where trolls and trublemakers lurk at every corner. If you say anything interesting, someone is going to bash you for it. As often as not, it's out of jealousy because they're not interesting or daring themselves, so they bash you. Don't let it get to you, and don't react to every flame because it's like throwing gasoline on a fire.

As to smoking pot, it IS cool. Look at my name. I think it's so cool that I've annointed myself Pothead, just to sing the praises of having a good bowl or joint. Do I get into heated flame wars with internet trolls? No ... if someone flames me, I just let it roll off like water off a duck's back.

Toke and be happy. :sun

Seraphim
01-08-2005, 19:44
I have found peace. Bad week. 5-0 took my pipes (the ones I acquired on the trail!), among other horredous events... :D Sorry all. I'm back to being Seraphim, angel of light and love.

Skeemer
01-09-2005, 13:32
A man and his dog were walking along a road. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead. He remembered dying, and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them. After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight. When he was standing before it he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like Mother of Pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold. He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side. When he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, where are we?" "This is Heaven, sir," the man answered. "Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man asked. "Of course sir, come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up." The man gestured, and the gate began to open. "Can my friend," gesturing toward his dog, "come in, too?" the traveler asked. "I'm sorry sir, but we don't accept pets." The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way he had been going with his dog.

After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road which led through a farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence. As he approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book. "Excuse me!" he called to the reader. "Do you have any water?" "Yeah, sure, there's a pump over there". The man pointed to a place that couldn't be seen from outside the gate. "Come on in." "How about my friend here?" the traveler gestured to the dog. "There should be a bowl by the pump." They went through the gate, and sure enough, there was an old fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it. The traveler filled the bowl and took a long drink himself, then he gave some to the dog. When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree waiting for them. "What do you call this place?" the traveler asked. "This is Heaven," he answered. "Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "The man down the road said that was Heaven, too." "Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates? Nope. That's Hell." "Doesn't it make you mad for them to use your name like that?" "No. I can see how you might think so, but we're just happy that they screen out the folks who'll leave their best friend behind." :)

smokymtnsteve
01-16-2005, 19:35
So, how much daylight you getting these days?


daylight from about 9;30am-4;15pm...

a few nights ago we had an awesome northern lights show..simply fatastic,,

smokymtnsteve
01-16-2005, 19:36
At least its a dry cold in central AK, not like the clammy wet cold you have on the AT. Hope you're having a good time, take some pics and post em here.

Also dude you need to change the location by your name from from Atlanta to Healy, AK. I don't think the folks in Georgia have huskies running around in -27.



Duh,,,stupid me :o

smokymtnsteve
01-16-2005, 19:39
At least its a dry cold in central AK, not like the clammy wet cold you have on the AT. Hope you're having a good time, take some pics and post em here.

Also dude you need to change the location by your name from from Atlanta to Healy, AK. I don't think the folks in Georgia have huskies running around in -27.


Like Duh..stupid me :o

steve hiker
01-16-2005, 23:38
[QUOTE=smokymtnsteve]daylight from about 9;30am-4;15pm...
QUOTE]

pretty short days. do you get a break at 4:20? :D

Youngblood
01-17-2005, 08:44
daylight from about 9;30am-4;15pm...

a few nights ago we had an awesome northern lights show..simply fatastic,,
That's not as bad as I was guessing. How high in the sky does the sun get at midday, compared to what you were use to in Atlanta?

Youngblood

steve hiker
01-17-2005, 14:04
Skeemer, that's one of the best things I've read in a long time.


A man and his dog were walking along a road. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead. He remembered dying, and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them. After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight. When he was standing before it he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like Mother of Pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold. He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side. When he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, where are we?" "This is Heaven, sir," the man answered. "Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man asked. "Of course sir, come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up." The man gestured, and the gate began to open. "Can my friend," gesturing toward his dog, "come in, too?" the traveler asked. "I'm sorry sir, but we don't accept pets." The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way he had been going with his dog.

After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road which led through a farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence. As he approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book. "Excuse me!" he called to the reader. "Do you have any water?" "Yeah, sure, there's a pump over there". The man pointed to a place that couldn't be seen from outside the gate. "Come on in." "How about my friend here?" the traveler gestured to the dog. "There should be a bowl by the pump." They went through the gate, and sure enough, there was an old fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it. The traveler filled the bowl and took a long drink himself, then he gave some to the dog. When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree waiting for them. "What do you call this place?" the traveler asked. "This is Heaven," he answered. "Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "The man down the road said that was Heaven, too." "Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates? Nope. That's Hell." "Doesn't it make you mad for them to use your name like that?" "No. I can see how you might think so, but we're just happy that they screen out the folks who'll leave their best friend behind." :)

ed bell
01-17-2005, 17:52
I might be mistaken, but I seem to remember that story (post #146) being used for an episode of the Twilight Zone. Anybody remember it? It's one of my favorites.

Ridge
01-19-2005, 00:57
A man and his dog were walking along a road. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead. He remembered dying, and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years. =

Both probably fell victim to a teed off thru hiker years early.

steve hiker
01-19-2005, 06:13
probably fell victim to a teed off thru hiker years early.
9th hole Silers Bald. FORE!