View Full Version : Marmot?? what am I missing?
jeremesh
12-14-2010, 00:47
Ok, so I have been looking at getting a new 15 degree bag and have been looking at the Marmot line. Specifically the Pinnacle, Helium, and Plasma. All three are 15 degree down bags but there are some things I dont understand.
PLASMA Helium Pinnacle
900 Fill down 850 Fill down 800 Fill down
EN LL 18 degrees EN LL 16 degrees EN LL 10 Degrees
30 oz. 31 oz. 40 oz.
Stuff - 7.5 x 15.5 Stuff - 7 x 14 Stuff - 7.5 x 13
$469 $369 $329
I understand the price difference due to the quality of fill as well as other issues. I understand the weight as with lower fill, it takes more down to get to the 15 degree rating. What I dont understand is why is the stuff size bigger for the lighter, higher loft down and smaller for the heavier, lower loft down? I feel like I'm missing something.
Tom Murphy
12-14-2010, 00:58
Even more surprising to me is the 8 deg difference in the EN LL temperatures.
I would have guessed that the stuff sack would be the same size and the temp ratings would be the same as well.
This information makes me wonder if the construction features are not identical.
I have a MAROT down bag and it's performance has been stellar. I would not hesitant to buy one again.
Probably is a typo. This is not unusual. Email Marmot to clear it up.
jeremesh
12-14-2010, 01:06
Wow, the spacing on that didnt come out at all as I had planned it.. sorry for the hard to read post.
The Plasma is much different because it has verticle baffles instead of the typical horizontal but otherwise, its still nylon shell and nylon lining.
Is it possible that the "stuff sack size" is not a valid representation of how small the bag can be packed with the help of a compression sack?
jeremesh
12-14-2010, 01:14
to be fair, these specs came from the REI site but they do match the specs on the Marmot site with the exception of the EN rating. Marmot site lists the same EN rating for both the Helium and the Pinnacle. The Plasma is an REI exclusive and not listed on the Marmot site yet. The marmot site does not list stuff size either.
Probably is a typo. This is not unusual. Email Marmot to clear it up.
Tom Murphy
12-16-2010, 12:24
Of course until the MARMOT site adds these bags we are left guessing but....
I can't see paying ~ $100. to save the one ounce difference between the HELIUM and the PLASMA.
But I would have a tough time justifying the cost of the PINNACLE over the SAWTOOTH as well.
garlic08
12-16-2010, 13:16
...I have a Marmot down bag and its performance has been stellar. I would not hesitant to buy one again.
Ditto this. My Helium has over 5000 trail miles on it, including the first 600 miles of the AT. Love it.
PLASMA Helium Pinnacle sawtooth
900 Fill down 850 Fill down 800 Fill down 600
EN LL 18 degrees EN LL 16 degrees EN LL 10 Degrees enll14
30 oz. 31 oz. 40 oz. 46 oz.
Stuff - 7.5 x 15.5 Stuff - 7 x 14 Stuff - 7.5 x 13 stuff 7.5 x 16
$469 $369 $329 $209@rei or 171 other places
edited to show saw tooth
The Plasma is a new bag exclusive to REI from what I understand. So it probably won't be on the Marmot home page if this is correct. The Plasma uses Pertex Quantum material and 900 df. These materials are light and expensive ~ a "higher" wuality thatn the other two bags mentioned. However, the large price tag on this bag probably comes with the idea that it is a new bag with different technology (meaning the vertical baffles).
The Helium uses 850+ df and nylon ripstop on the outside and polyester taffeta on the inside. Great materials, but a smudge heavier than the PQ. Here I will say the REI IS WRONG ON THE WEIGHT OF THE HELIUM AND I HAVE TOLD THEM SO BUT THEY WILL NOT CHANGE THEIR LISTING. According to Marmot the Helium weighs 34 oz. Even says so on the tags which are on the bags hanging in the REI store. (I had an issue with REI about this.) I have used the Helium to temps down to 15 with a wind chill below 0. I used a NeoAir and a 1/8" Thinlight pad. I was good. Mine weighs 35.2 oz in it's stuff sack. The stuff sack that comes with it compacts the bag as small as I would want to stuff it and will probably not use it anyway.
The Pinnacle is almost the same as the Helium. 800+ df and uses a different material that is just a little heavier. (can't remember what though right now...) Also the Pinnacle features a true draft collar. The heavier materials on the Pinnacle will help trap slightly more heat and the collar will also help retain that heat. This is why the Pinnacle is rated lower than the Helium. Of course because of the slightly "lower" quality materials the bag is slightly cheaper and heavier.
The Sawtooth uses 6700 df so it uses considerably more down to achieve the same rating as the other bags, which raises the weight and lowers the price. The Sawtooth also features a true draft collar. It is surprising at how much a draft collar will help, but it does.
This is not to say that the Helium does not completely have a draft collar. Rather it has a passive collar which, the way I can explain it, a baffle runs along the zipper (draft tube) and then at the top of the zipper it makes a hard turn and follows the top of the sleeping bag (along your chin). This baffle is slightly larger and will hang down a little, hence a passive collar. (If that makes sense.)
The material on the Pinnacle will also resist water better than the Helium. However, there is also a Helium Membrain bag. It is the exact same as the regular Helium except it uses an actual membrane outer so that it is much more waterproof (while still being able to breath...) Due to this, this bag is slightly heavier and a little more $$$. Obviously, this thicker outer material gives this bag a lower EN rating than the regular Helium as well.
Haha... after reading my last post I see many grammatical errors...
So, the Sawtooth does not use 6700 df. If it did it would probably weigh less than air and be so expensive no one could afford it, even Marmot...
Bags4266
12-19-2010, 19:23
I have been eye balling the Pinnacle for some time. Best price I could find was $280 at Campmor. The other day Altrec had them for $215.00..... I couldn't believe it, so I had to make the purchase. I bought it yesterday since then all gone. They also had the Helium heavly discounted too.
Based on my Helium, I am very happy with Marmot and I would assume the rest of their bags are probably equally nice.
Blissful
12-19-2010, 23:00
I have marmot pounder and pounder plus. Used on both my hikes. Very happy.
For colder weather though I went with Montbell.
jeremesh
12-19-2010, 23:13
I'm a bit torn right now between the Pinnacle/Helium and a montbell bag. Does anybody have any pics of these bags compressed for comparison? Specifically, the montbell ul super spiral stretch #1
Don't have a Montbell but here is a picture of my Helium compressed next to a few other bags. All the bags except the NF Aleutian are in their regular stuff sacks. My wifes SD bag can be compressed smaller if needed. ANyway, here is the pic:
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu88/STICK13/DSC_0378.jpg
What I don't understand is why is the stuff size bigger for the lighter, higher loft down and smaller for the heavier, lower loft down? I feel like I'm missing something. - Jeremesh
First, down is not the only thing that contributes to a sleeping bags weight(I only wish!) or its stuffed size. Zippers, zipper length, shell material, liner material, construction methods may vary from bag to bag, dimensions of each bag may vary(???, double check that!, shoulder, hip, feet, length, etc!), etc You have to do some more research but I also suspect that Stick has brought up the most logical conclusion! Different shells, and of course different down, contibute to how much a bag can be stuffed! This are only SOME factors! I would also make sure that you get your specs directly from Marmot NOT REI or, at least, compare the specs from Marmot with REI! Also, be VERY CAREFUL about what you are comparing in sleeping bags! As you have noticed these 3 Marmot bags ARE NOT exactly the same in REI's quoted speculations. REI generally does an OK job of listing specs but I've caught them on several ocassions misquoting specs and I've brought it to their attention. They have adjusted or made notes in their advertising about specs when I've made it known to them there was a discrepancy between their specs and the manufacturers.
One of the MOST MISQUOTED specs with hiking gear, and not only from REI, is the wt.! Second, you have to determine what exactly is being included in the quoted weight or what exactly is being weighed! Be forewarned!
hikerinnc
12-20-2010, 20:42
I've used marmot products for years, but lately there seems to be a shift in all of thier quality, in the wrong direction. Marmot is now showing up in departments stores and sporting goods stores that don't specialize in the outdoors. I too have my eyes on the plasma 15 deg. bag but have since decided to go with Western Mounteering. The only reason I didn't go to them earlier was cost, but now they are about the same, weight too.
skinewmexico
12-20-2010, 21:48
Plasma just looks like a typical marketing scam to me. I wouldn't consider vertical baffles earthshaking, or original.
I think I agree with you on that. IMO, it would be better to be able to shift the down from back to front rather than from top to bottom.
jeremesh
12-21-2010, 00:47
moontrail has some good pics of the bags stuffed for referene.
Montbell
http://www.moontrail.com/details/montbell/ul-super-spiral-dh-1/ul-ss-dh-1-stufff.jpg
Marmot helium
http://www.moontrail.com/details/marmot/helium/helium-stuffed.jpg
mweinstone
12-21-2010, 01:12
the helium comes in eq waterproof coating for an extra hundred dollars makeing it about 545.00$.thats what i use when im not in my marmot col negetive 20 also eq coated and about 800.00$. these two bags, hotel marmot and motel marmot,lol, are all i ever drempt of as a kid in a cotton coleman. other companys cant hold a candel to them. period.
mweinstone
12-21-2010, 01:22
well, the price went down since 2006 or i got ripped. anyway, there nice to call mine.