View Full Version : Opinion of ATC
In my opinion, ATC works hard to protect the AT through many programs: Trail crews, maintaining clubs, working with teachers and the new AT Community program to name a few.
What do you think of the ATC as an organization. What do they do well and what could they improve on. Of course when I say they I am including all full time staff, 31 maintaining clubs and all its members.
Trying to make this part of the world (AT) a better place.
Dayglo
4eyedbuzzard
12-14-2010, 11:33
Overall, I think they do a pretty darn good job.
One criticism I have is that I think their maps could use improving. They could take a lesson from Nat. Geo. Trails Illustrated in terms of map illustration and color / number coding allowing easier coordination with the Guides, Companion, etc. Obviously, they won't cover as large an area as they are looking at a more narrow section of real estate, but they could be much more user friendly and easier to read, IMO.
LIhikers
12-14-2010, 19:49
.......What do you think of the ATC as an organization. What do they do well and what could they improve on. Of course when I say they I am including all full time staff, 31 maintaining clubs and all its members.
Dayglo
That's painting with a very wide brush.
I'd suggest you narrow your focus a little and leave out the maintaining clubs as each one is different even though they are all caretakers of the trail.
Overall, I think they do a pretty darn good job.
One criticism I have is that I think their maps could use improving. They could take a lesson from Nat. Geo. Trails Illustrated in terms of map illustration and color / number coding allowing easier coordination with the Guides, Companion, etc. Obviously, they won't cover as large an area as they are looking at a more narrow section of real estate, but they could be much more user friendly and easier to read, IMO.
I'm not sure of relationship or how it works with the maps but if you noticed each maintaining club produces their own maps. However, I do agree, if they could coordinate and make a NG TI type maps for the entire trail, that would be great.
Rain Man
12-14-2010, 21:02
I'm not sure of relationship or how it works with the maps but if you noticed each maintaining club produces their own maps.
News to me! I had no idea.
Rain:sunMan
.
4eyedbuzzard
12-14-2010, 22:21
I'm not sure of relationship or how it works with the maps but if you noticed each maintaining club produces their own maps. However, I do agree, if they could coordinate and make a NG TI type maps for the entire trail, that would be great.
Come to think of it, yeah, you're right. Okay, so my complaint now is that they should coordinate standardizing all the maps from the maintaing clubs and make them more like the NG TI ones. :D
wcgornto
12-14-2010, 22:40
One criticism I have is that I think their maps could use improving. They could take a lesson from Nat. Geo. Trails Illustrated in terms of map illustration and color / number coding allowing easier coordination with the Guides, Companion, etc. Obviously, they won't cover as large an area as they are looking at a more narrow section of real estate, but they could be much more user friendly and easier to read, IMO.
The map I liked the least on my thru hike was the Nat. Geo. map used for the Smoky Mountains. I used the elevation profiles on the maps extensively to get a feel for what was ahead of me. The elevation profile on this particular Nat. Geo. map was inadequate at best, bordering on completely useless.
I almost hate to admit that, though I am a member, I know very little about how they spend my (meager) membership fee. The mags are informative, and I hope that the little bit I give makes a difference somehow.
The map I liked the least on my thru hike was the Nat. Geo. map used for the Smoky Mountains. I used the elevation profiles on the maps extensively to get a feel for what was ahead of me. The elevation profile on this particular Nat. Geo. map was inadequate at best, bordering on completely useless.
I agree, the profile on this map wasn't the best, but if you know how to read a topo, or a map in general, then you should have no problem. I think the real issue with maps is that people don't know how to read them.
To understand ATC, you need to know a bit about the history. The trail began in the 1920s when volunteers from the hiking community began building new trails and connecting old trails in response to Benton MacKaye's original proposal for a continuous footpath along the Appalachians. As trail clubs elsewhere followed suit the Appalachian Trail Conference was created, again by volunteers. From the beginning it has been a coordinating organization designed to encourage maintaining clubs to work cooperatively. Essentially, ATC began as an organization of volunteers, advising volunteers. It's powers were essentially the powers of persuasion.
Each maintaining club built its own trails whereever it could find a cooperating landowner on public land if possible, but mostly through private land.
That worked fine during the great depression of the 1930s, less well as prosperity returned after World War II and land through the mountains became valuable. Every year more and more private owners took back the land maintaining clubs had used for trails, forcing the trail to switch to public roads.
This changed with the passage of the National Scenic Trails Act in 1968 which ordered the National Park Service and the U. S. Forest Service to acquire land in the woods and mountains for a trail corridor. Congress charged the National Park Service with being the lead agency for the new public corridor. The park service in turn delegated day to day responsibility to the ATC. For the first time ATC had more than the power of persuasion over the local clubs. After considerable internal debate, ATC for the first time hired professional managers and staff.
But the basic work of the trail continues to be done by the maintaining clubs. Each of the 30 clubs raises most of its own money, recruits volunteers to keep blowdowns and brush at bay, builds shelters, and designs maps and in some cases trail guides.
ATC, however, remains critical to the success of the trail. It's the funnel through which badly needed federal dollars come, it keeps the federal bureaucracy mostly out of the hair of the local clubs, and it provides critical liasison with the Congress, which ultimately is in control.
It's weakness is that it has never been able to raise the money needed to do all that needs to be done. In my opinion all trail users need to be members of ATC and to contribute to its support.
I used the elevation profiles on the maps extensively to get a feel for what was ahead of me.
Seriously, on the AT, you needed an elevation profile to tell you that? It's up and down from ME to GA. :p
The ATC seems like a text book public/private partnership.
Excellent post, Weary. Thank you.
Also ATC has a professional GIS department (probably just one person) who's churning through creating newer and better maps especially in the mid-South. Most of the maintaining clubs don't print their own maps, only some of the larger groups (PATC, NYNJTC, etc.) do.
Blissful
12-15-2010, 14:57
I love the ATC - but I do not like their new map for NC/TN
The old NY maps were the best trail maps. When the trail was going to turn on a road crossing or where you find the trail at a road crossing, by golly, it was right on target (except of course Bear Mtn which its totally changed now). You could follow those maps to a tee. They were reliable
Not so, at least with the new Tn /NC map. Nor are there road names for many roads (like near 19E) where the trail crosses, so if one gets off trail (like I did before 19E) I had no idea what road I was on. There was also mistakes at Watauga Dam going SOBO. I could not follow the map, it appeared incorrect. I get frustrated when a map becomes unreliable.
Digger'02
12-15-2010, 18:00
To understand ATC, you need to know a bit about the history. The trail began in the 1920s when volunteers from the hiking community began building new trails and connecting old trails in response to Benton MacKaye's original proposal for a continuous footpath along the Appalachians. As trail clubs elsewhere followed suit the Appalachian Trail Conference was created, again by volunteers. From the beginning it has been a coordinating organization designed to encourage maintaining clubs to work cooperatively. Essentially, ATC began as an organization of volunteers, advising volunteers. It's powers were essentially the powers of persuasion.
Each maintaining club built its own trails whereever it could find a cooperating landowner on public land if possible, but mostly through private land.
That worked fine during the great depression of the 1930s, less well as prosperity returned after World War II and land through the mountains became valuable. Every year more and more private owners took back the land maintaining clubs had used for trails, forcing the trail to switch to public roads.
This changed with the passage of the National Scenic Trails Act in 1968 which ordered the National Park Service and the U. S. Forest Service to acquire land in the woods and mountains for a trail corridor. Congress charged the National Park Service with being the lead agency for the new public corridor. The park service in turn delegated day to day responsibility to the ATC. For the first time ATC had more than the power of persuasion over the local clubs. After considerable internal debate, ATC for the first time hired professional managers and staff.
But the basic work of the trail continues to be done by the maintaining clubs. Each of the 30 clubs raises most of its own money, recruits volunteers to keep blowdowns and brush at bay, builds shelters, and designs maps and in some cases trail guides.
ATC, however, remains critical to the success of the trail. It's the funnel through which badly needed federal dollars come, it keeps the federal bureaucracy mostly out of the hair of the local clubs, and it provides critical liasison with the Congress, which ultimately is in control.
It's weakness is that it has never been able to raise the money needed to do all that needs to be done. In my opinion all trail users need to be members of ATC and to contribute to its support.
Nice post, one critical point to add, the ATC also stewards the agreements that keep volunteers trained (chainsaw etc.) and safe (personal protective equipment). NEPA in a lot of instances is sheparded by the ATC (although conducted by Feds) and land protection is the ATC's responsibility.
Its nice to have paid staff who have to interact with the government and push the papers so the volunteers can just get out there and do it without a lot of hubbub. bub.
And Sly, its all down hill from Clingman's dome ;)
BYW, the AT is on the National Geographic maps...the best part of the ATC maps is that they line up (In theory) with the data book.
SassyWindsor
12-15-2010, 18:13
The ATC seems to be doing a good job, especially at keeping the Trail Maintenance Clubs focused and coordinated.
Nice post, one critical point to add, the ATC also stewards the agreements that keep volunteers trained (chainsaw etc.) and safe (personal protective equipment). NEPA in a lot of instances is sheparded by the ATC (although conducted by Feds) and land protection is the ATC's responsibility.
Its nice to have paid staff who have to interact with the government and push the papers so the volunteers can just get out there and do it without a lot of hubbub. bub.
I thought he covered that by his mention of keeping the federal bureaucracy mostly out of the hair of the local clubs. :D
The map I liked the least on my thru hike was the Nat. Geo. map used for the Smoky Mountains. I used the elevation profiles on the maps extensively to get a feel for what was ahead of me. The elevation profile on this particular Nat. Geo. map was inadequate at best, bordering on completely useless.
I finally decided the elevation profile on this map was printed upside down.....
No complaints or suggestions for the ATC. The only nit I have to pick are the maps with only 1 printed side. Not a biggie really but pretty wasteful.
Digger'02
12-16-2010, 11:00
I thought he covered that by his mention of keeping the federal bureaucracy mostly out of the hair of the local clubs. :D
ahh yes. graci. I sometimes have to pe pointed directly at the target then slapped firmly, a flaw perhaps but it works for hiking. Thanks, didn't mean to short change you weary.
walkin' wally
12-16-2010, 12:58
Come to think of it, yeah, you're right. Okay, so my complaint now is that they should coordinate standardizing all the maps from the maintaing clubs and make them more like the NG TI ones. :D
Respectfully, no thanks. The maps for Maine do a good job for the average hiker. The Maine ATC and WalkinHome here at WB put together a new issue every so many years and a lot of people think they are very good. They apparently don't see the need for a lot of useless detail. Really, all one has to do is follow the white blazes. YMMV :)
4eyedbuzzard
12-16-2010, 13:30
Respectfully, no thanks. The maps for Maine do a good job for the average hiker. The Maine ATC and WalkinHome here at WB put together a new issue every so many years and a lot of people think they are very good. They apparently don't see the need for a lot of useless detail. Really, all one has to do is follow the white blazes. YMMV :)
I'm not familiar with the current ME maps, so I won't comment in that respect. But I hardly think additional detail and/or better color rendering as found on the NG TI maps compared to most AT section maps is "useless detail". I (and likely others) find the greater detail very helpful for section hikes that incorporate sections of the AT along with the many "blue blaze" access trails we use. Section hikers often have to do more navigating than just following the white blazes. But as you said, YMMV. I guess we must be happy with our differing opinions. :)
ahh yes. graci. I sometimes have to pe pointed directly at the target then slapped firmly, a flaw perhaps but it works for hiking. Thanks, didn't mean to short change you weary.
No apologies are called for. The more times things are repeated the better understood they become. The more people repeat things I say, the better.
Jack Tarlin
12-16-2010, 18:27
So the Maine maps "do a good job for the average hiker"?
Um, please allow another view.
The Maine maps are superb; they should be used as a model for all the other Trail clubs when it comes time to designing or re-designing trail maps; and they don't just do a good job, they do an extraordinary one. They are far superior than ANY of the other Trail maps presently available and have been for years.
Wally, with all due respect, wait until you do the rest of the Trail and have to rely daily on the maps that the other Trail groups/clubs provide. I think after this, you'll feel a bit better about the Maine maps and the volunteers who produce them. (Like, wait til you see and use the 5 Virginia strip maps, from Damascus to Waynesboro, that are pitifully bad and haven't been reworked in years). To say that the Maine maps do a good job for the average hiker, in truth, is kind of insulting. These maps do a lot better than that.
Blue Jay
12-17-2010, 11:21
In my opinion all trail users need to be members of ATC and to contribute to its support.
I agree 100%. Please, everyone support this organization as much as possible.
hikerboy57
12-17-2010, 12:45
These guys do a great job of not only maintaining the trails, but also the shelters and tentsites thru NH and the Mahoosucs. I do prefer the AT maps to the ATC maps though, as the elevation charts give you a much better picture of what you're hiking.
Toolshed
12-17-2010, 13:25
In my opinion, ATC works hard to protect the AT through many programs: Trail crews, maintaining clubs, working with teachers and the new AT Community program to name a few.
What do you think of the ATC as an organization. What do they do well and what could they improve on. Of course when I say they I am including all full time staff, 31 maintaining clubs and all its members.
Trying to make this part of the world (AT) a better place.
Dayglo
HI Dayglo,
I'm trying to understand the context of the question(s)...
So, are you asking this as part of an poll for the ATC? Are you an employee of the ATC?
Do you have an affiliation with the ATC -marketing, consulting or otherwise?
You mentioned they worked hard, but you give no indication of whether you are pleased with what they do or whether their efforts are successful (in your opinion) perhaps it's because you don't want to lead or temper the responses (which I appreciate).. but I am just curious....
Thanks
Toolshed
These guys do a great job of not only maintaining the trails, but also the shelters and tentsites thru NH and the Mahoosucs. I do prefer the AT maps to the ATC maps though, as the elevation charts give you a much better picture of what you're hiking.
I'm not sure what you mean by the AT maps vs. ATC maps. The only complete maps of the Appalachian Trail that I know of are those produced by the Appalachian Trail Conservancy and it's maintaining clubs.
Other agencies such as the U. S. Forest Service, the National Park Service, Baxter State Park, and AMC produce maps of small areas that include the trail. But the AT maps and the ATC maps are one and the same -- or were the last time I looked.
Most of the maps are designed by the maintaining clubs. PATC, MATC, and perhaps others, are also published and printed by the maintaining clubs. Other are published and printed by ATC. But by and large the information is provided by the maintaining clubs, as I understand it. All are sold by the ATC. The annual sale is now on. It ends later this month. I can't imagine planning a thru hike without the maps on hand for consultation, though I know many do so.
hikerboy57
12-17-2010, 14:27
I'm not sure what you mean by the AT maps vs. ATC maps. The only complete maps of the Appalachian Trail that I know of are those produced by the Appalachian Trail Conservancy and it's maintaining clubs.
Other agencies such as the U. S. Forest Service, the National Park Service, Baxter State Park, and AMC produce maps of small areas that include the trail. But the AT maps and the ATC maps are one and the same -- or were the last time I looked.
Most of the maps are designed by the maintaining clubs. PATC, MATC, and perhaps others, are also published and printed by the maintaining clubs. Other are published and printed by ATC. But by and large the information is provided by the maintaining clubs, as I understand it. All are sold by the ATC. The annual sale is now on. It ends later this month. I can't imagine planning a thru hike without the maps on hand for consultation, though I know many do so.
I know, my bad, was confusing with AMC, and the ATC maps are far better.
Cookerhiker
12-17-2010, 18:05
..... In my opinion all trail users need to be members of ATC and to contribute to its support.
I agree 100%. Please, everyone support this organization as much as possible.
Me three! I'm looking forward to the 2011 ATC biennial. (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.5288831/k.F99/Virginia_Journeys_2011.htm)
They are far superior than ANY of the other Trail maps presently available and have been for years.
To say that the Maine maps do a good job for the average hiker, in truth, is kind of insulting. These maps do a lot better than that.
Maybe Wally is just being a typical Mainer. You know, "it was kind of cool this morning.":)
walkin' wally
12-18-2010, 10:59
So the Maine maps "do a good job for the average hiker"?
Um, please allow another view.
The Maine maps are superb; they should be used as a model for all the other Trail clubs when it comes time to designing or re-designing trail maps; and they don't just do a good job, they do an extraordinary one. They are far superior than ANY of the other Trail maps presently available and have been for years.
Wally, with all due respect, wait until you do the rest of the Trail and have to rely daily on the maps that the other Trail groups/clubs provide. I think after this, you'll feel a bit better about the Maine maps and the volunteers who produce them. (Like, wait til you see and use the 5 Virginia strip maps, from Damascus to Waynesboro, that are pitifully bad and haven't been reworked in years). To say that the Maine maps do a good job for the average hiker, in truth, is kind of insulting. These maps do a lot better than that.
I don't deal in superlatives like you do. I am only talking about Maine and Ray's and MATC's good job. I don't care about the other states. Never been there. You want to see insulting look in a mirror.
I don't deal in superlatives like you do. I am only talking about Maine and Ray's and MATC's good job. I don't care about the other states. Never been there. You want to see insulting look in a mirror.
Come on Wally. Jack's just trying to praise us in his own inimitable way.
walkin' wally
12-18-2010, 15:57
Come on Wally. Jack's just trying to praise us in his own inimitable way.
This is ridiculous. I've never insulted anyone or anything on this website.
Thanks for all your work Weary.
RedneckRye
12-19-2010, 12:04
Only wish they would spend fewer of my membership dollars sending me mail asking for more dollars.
I'd be far more likely to respond if I knew that the organization wouldn't be sending 6 more pieces of similar mail over the next 6 months.
Obviously they could use more money, but at some point it starts to seem as if they are just crying "Wolf!".
Only wish they would spend fewer of my membership dollars sending me mail asking for more dollars.
I'd be far more likely to respond if I knew that the organization wouldn't be sending 6 more pieces of similar mail over the next 6 months.
Obviously they could use more money, but at some point it starts to seem as if they are just crying "Wolf!".
Those of us who have tried to buy land for trails or to build trails over the decades know that the more times you ask, the more money that comes in.
Since there is never enough money for trail needs, the wise among us just keep asking. It's amazing the money several 23 cent bulk mail stamps will generate. And how few dollars a single bulk mail stamp generates.
Sir-Packs-Alot
12-26-2010, 06:07
Thanks for that .. sorry I'm only saying that now - after you posted it ages ago!
To understand ATC, you need to know a bit about the history. The trail began in the 1920s when volunteers from the hiking community began building new trails and connecting old trails in response to Benton MacKaye's original proposal for a continuous footpath along the Appalachians. As trail clubs elsewhere followed suit the Appalachian Trail Conference was created, again by volunteers. From the beginning it has been a coordinating organization designed to encourage maintaining clubs to work cooperatively. Essentially, ATC began as an organization of volunteers, advising volunteers. It's powers were essentially the powers of persuasion.
Each maintaining club built its own trails whereever it could find a cooperating landowner on public land if possible, but mostly through private land.
That worked fine during the great depression of the 1930s, less well as prosperity returned after World War II and land through the mountains became valuable. Every year more and more private owners took back the land maintaining clubs had used for trails, forcing the trail to switch to public roads.
This changed with the passage of the National Scenic Trails Act in 1968 which ordered the National Park Service and the U. S. Forest Service to acquire land in the woods and mountains for a trail corridor. Congress charged the National Park Service with being the lead agency for the new public corridor. The park service in turn delegated day to day responsibility to the ATC. For the first time ATC had more than the power of persuasion over the local clubs. After considerable internal debate, ATC for the first time hired professional managers and staff.
But the basic work of the trail continues to be done by the maintaining clubs. Each of the 30 clubs raises most of its own money, recruits volunteers to keep blowdowns and brush at bay, builds shelters, and designs maps and in some cases trail guides.
ATC, however, remains critical to the success of the trail. It's the funnel through which badly needed federal dollars come, it keeps the federal bureaucracy mostly out of the hair of the local clubs, and it provides critical liasison with the Congress, which ultimately is in control.
It's weakness is that it has never been able to raise the money needed to do all that needs to be done. In my opinion all trail users need to be members of ATC and to contribute to its support.
I had belonged to ATC, but this year I joined PATC because every time I go out in MD/VA I meet PATC volunteers, not ATC people. The local clubs have their boots on the ground and do a lot of good work. They need our support too.
I think of the ATC as more of a management organization, that also spends a huge amount of our money just putting solicitations in the mail. With perhaps a political side as well (do they spend our money on lobbyists in Washington?).
Cookerhiker
02-23-2011, 20:43
I had belonged to ATC, but this year I joined PATC because every time I go out in MD/VA I meet PATC volunteers, not ATC people. The local clubs have their boots on the ground and do a lot of good work. They need our support too.
I think of the ATC as more of a management organization, that also spends a huge amount of our money just putting solicitations in the mail. With perhaps a political side as well (do they spend our money on lobbyists in Washington?).
You're correct in that the 2 organizations serve different purposes but the ATC is vital to the continued existence of the AT.
They do not lobby or spend money on lobbyists. They do on occasion testify before Congressional committees, both in connection with appropriations and other issues involving trails.
I don't know what they spend "putting solicitations in the mail" but I doubt it's "huge." In addition to publishing the magazine AT Journeys, they also provide outreach materials to the public (and to hikers) and most importantly, work with local communities in the Trail corridor to ensure continued protection of the AT viewshed so that all hikers may continue to enjoy a "footpath in the wilderness."
It's not mutually exclusive to support both a local club and the ATC. I've been an ATC member for over 30 years as well as a member of the Green Mountain Club (since 1969) and the PATC. I did end my 25 year membership in the AMC a few years ago.