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10-K
12-27-2010, 13:39
Before I left on my hike yesterday I loaded 100 waypoints for the section of trail from Devil's Fork Gap to Erwin into my GPS anticipating issues locating the trail in the snow. I figured this would be a good chance to play with my new GPS. The waypoints were taking from Nat Geo Southern Appalachian software. Unfortunately, just waypoints were transferred - no maps.

So, the first time I lost the trail in the snow I took out the GPS instead of my flagging tape and decided to let the GPS tell me where the trail was.

I located the next waypoint from where I was standing and basically just stumbled around in the snow for 15 minutes and never found the trail.

How do you find an exact location from a GPS waypoint? I was under the impression that I could find the AT since my waypoints were supposedly directly on the trail. I can see how it would keep me from getting hopeless lost and in the neighborhood but bushwhacking in the snow with a GPS in one had was a real PITA... I wound up using my flagging tape to mark a known location on the trail and found the trail within 15 minutes.

I guess I need to take a GPS class or something..

fiddlehead
12-27-2010, 14:55
The GPS tends to wander.
I have found that sometimes, it can be exact but others, it's off by 20 feet or more.

I have hiked the AT in winter and have found that it's not that hard to find the trail when it is completely snow covered. Just look for openings in the trees and think like a trailbuilder and you'll be surprised how easy it is to find it.
Check your GPS every 15 minutes or so and you'll know if your close or, if your off by more than a 1/4 mile, well, you'd better backtrack and look for that opening again.

ChinMusic
12-27-2010, 15:24
With certain GPS units (software) you can upload the entire trail. It is not 100% accurate because of original inputs errors and re-routes, but it is pretty good. Just putting in a few waypoints can be dicey.

"Old-school" folks depend more on map/compass. I SUCK at that. It seems that every time I really needed to know where I was, it was either foggy or tree dense, and I couldn't see ANY landmarks. With the GPS at least I can get the "you-are-here" function to work. I prefer electronic maps to paper when on the trail. I prefer paper maps when planning.

I like your idea of flagging. I have never done that, but with GPS it is fairly easy to log a waypoint and hike your cookie crumbs backwards to that point.

I agree with Fiddlehead. Open area are often dead giveaways to where the trail is. Thinking like a trail builder helps too, maybe less so on the AT, as the trails DO go some goofy places.

10-K
12-27-2010, 15:35
I'm thinking a map with the actual trail displayed instead of a bunch of waypoints without a reference.

From waypoint to waypoint is a straight line, right? If the waypoints were superimposed on a map showing the trail it would make it a lot easier.

Is such a thing possible?

ChinMusic
12-27-2010, 15:47
The blind hiker (Hanson) was using track data for the AT with the intent of it keeping him within a couple feet of the trail. IMO, that asking WAY too much from the technology. For a sighted person (less sighted with heavy snow cover :cool:) the data is certainly good enough to keep you from getting WAY off trail, as long as you check it often when unsure.

I ended off my planned route WITH all my data on my GPS last July in Yosemite. Once I realized I was off track I was a couple miles off (user error). It was real obvious once I pulled the GPS out. I could see where my cookie crumbs deviated from the plan. Had I checked more often it would have been obvious within a couple hundred yards that I missed a turn.

TheChop
12-27-2010, 15:51
You can find people's past backtrack files online and then convert them to routes using as much or as little information as possible to get a very high resolution route. If you were really worried about getting lost during snow this is what I'd do.

Some of my maps on my Garmin had some trails in Smokies marked on them as dotted lines but the resolution of them and accuracy of them were always questionable.

10-K
12-27-2010, 16:01
I wasn't worried about getting lost-lost. I've hiked this particular section at least a dozen times.

I did have to do a bit of looking twice - it's amazing how different the landscape looks when everything is covered with a deep layer of snow.

The reason I took the GPS is so I could test it out in a relatively safe situation. But, instead of finding the trail with a waypoint preloaded on the GPS I just wandered around in the snow with the GPS in one hand (and 2 hiking poles in the other) which was not only difficult but also didn't work.

I think the thing is that waypoint-to-waypoint is a straight line and the trail rarely goes in straight lines like that. It would probably be much easier if the waypoints were superimposed on a map with the trail drawn on it.

Buzz Saw
12-27-2010, 17:17
10-K you can down load the entire trail to your computer, but the one I have found has over 135,000 waypoints one every 50 ft, which makes it a little to large for the average hand held. http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~dunigan/at/ this site has most all the info you need.

10-K
12-27-2010, 17:28
Is the Garmin map software any good?

According to the Garmin site, their Topo U.S. 24k - Southeast DVD has all routeable roads and trails.

I'd like something without a steep learning curve...

Wise Old Owl
12-27-2010, 17:56
10-K on the display map one would back up or zoom out until a waypoint appeared then take the waypoint name and do this..

Where To> Waypoint touch the number or name then touch GO.

In the display mode North Up might make that confusing, Track up would be easier.

Wise Old Owl
12-27-2010, 18:04
Is the Garmin map software any good?

According to the Garmin site, their Topo U.S. 24k - Southeast DVD has all routeable roads and trails.

I'd like something without a steep learning curve...

The Oregon built in map is just fine, and easy to orient with, what GPS are you using?

10-K
12-27-2010, 18:11
The Oregon built in map is just fine, and easy to orient with, what GPS are you using?

Vista Hcx. Bare bones (as in token) road maps.

Cooldays
12-27-2010, 18:21
I have not been impressed with gps and downloaded maps so far. Near cold mountain for example the "trails" which in a wilderness area may be different than a national park, seemed to always be off but sortof parallel most of the time. Trying to follow the map on the gps will be impossible and dangerous though.

I do find it useful to mark the car and my starting point and I feel safer having a route to follow backwards in case I get lost. as I think that is extremely accurate. I also have found it helpful with people who have labeled trails well for example...nice overlook at 6.3 miles and usually those are pretty accurate and helpful to me.

Buzz Saw
12-27-2010, 19:04
http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/maps/ This is another site to get free maps. This site also allows you to download mapsource.

10-K
12-27-2010, 20:28
Bonus question: My gps shipped with waas turned off.

Wouldn't I want to enable that?

Wise Old Owl
12-27-2010, 20:56
Waas in general doesn't work very well and slows the GPS down, They had plans of launching a Waas above Kansas, and until they do Waas works better on the oceans and other locations other than here.

Wise Old Owl
12-27-2010, 22:05
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/waas.jpg

BigHodag
12-27-2010, 22:09
GPS wasn't developed with the idea of providing a step-by-step trail. GPS is designed for locating pre-defined points (airports, bridges, buildings, airdrops). If you were lost and followed your GPS to a shelter waypoint, you could likely find it easily.

The best way to use a GPS to follow the AT would be to have the waypoints for every white blaze location. Then, staning at a known waypoint, the GPS would theoretically provide the distance and direction to the next waypoint/blaze.

In reality, the path between waypoints is a stright line which the AT seldom follows. Following a GPS blindly in snow conditions could lead one to walk off a steep dropoff. Snow builds up on tree branches and then drifts connect the tree tops to hill sides. This is a fairly common winter accident in steeper hills (Trinity Alps, Desolation Wilderness, Yosemite)

Use a GPS wisely. Use it to tell you how much further to a shelter or water source. Use it to find your way back to safety if way off trail and lost.

Wise Old Owl
12-27-2010, 23:16
I agree that it was not developed for a step by step trail, but the solid state service and hand held equipment have come a long way. SO within a 60 foot to 15 foot circle a Track can give a direction in deep woods for anyone to move forward with a solid idea of direction and return or go back along a designated route. I have loaded a Simple Garmin with a course and plotted a kayak trip over some 20+miles of back bays in unfamiliar water and the system worked flawlessly.

10-K
12-28-2010, 09:15
I'm not looking for turn-by-turn directions for the AT like I get from the Tom-Tom in the car.

I'm basically looking for a map that has the trail already drawn on it instead of just a bunch of waypoints.

Has anyone tried the Garmin trail maps? Seems like most people use gpsfiledepot.com but I don't have the motivation to download and learn 3 or 4 new software programs to get maps from there to my GPS.

TheChop
12-28-2010, 09:57
I have used the Garmin maps. I have the same GPS unit as you but without the SD slot. Nope the dotted lines on them are infrequent and inaccurate. It was very uncommon to find the dotted line matching up with the trail. Garmin is in no mood to update their maps with trails that change every year. I believe most of the maps use USGS maps, etc. as starting points.

What you need is a route with more waypoints. That's just how GPS works.

10-K
12-28-2010, 10:01
What you need is a route with more waypoints. That's just how GPS works.

That would be excellent. I can't imagine such a thing doesn't exist in an easily digestible format that doesn't require contortions to get into a popular GPS unit. :)

Really all I want is the AT in NC/TN - bonus points for other marked trails in the area...

TheChop
12-28-2010, 10:09
That would be excellent. I can't imagine such a thing doesn't exist in an easily digestible format that doesn't require contortions to get into a popular GPS unit. :)

Really all I want is the AT in NC/TN - bonus points for other marked trails in the area...


Backpacker has downloadable Tracks from their website. Here's one for the Panther Creek Trail.

http://bp2.trimbleoutdoors.com/ViewTrip/32355

Mostly it's just poking around and finding the track file of someone who has hiked the trail you're looking for. The track file will probably have too many waypoints. Then you have to convert a track (where you've been data) into a route (where you want to go data). There are a few free solutions to this.

Getting the data into a GPS unit is oftentimes clunky. It's not intuitive at all.

Wise Old Owl
12-28-2010, 14:01
Yea that was where I was last year, I got it figured out by state. I chunk the tracks into roughly 50 mile sections and the tracks display in a bright color so there's no mistakes. Requires moving the data from the Backpacker or AT Websites into MapSource and editing.

Warning do not try this at home....

10-K
12-28-2010, 16:07
Backpacker has downloadable Tracks from their website. Here's one for the Panther Creek Trail.

http://bp2.trimbleoutdoors.com/ViewTrip/32355

Mostly it's just poking around and finding the track file of someone who has hiked the trail you're looking for. The track file will probably have too many waypoints. Then you have to convert a track (where you've been data) into a route (where you want to go data). There are a few free solutions to this.

Getting the data into a GPS unit is oftentimes clunky. It's not intuitive at all.

Perfect! I found a trip from Nolichucky River to Spivey Gap and put it on my GPS. Went down to Uncle Johnny's and hit the trail.

The trail was drawn on the map and waypoints for selected items (campsites, vistas, etc.) were on the trail as well. I was able to follow the trail on the GPS and find each of the waypoints with no problem - accuracy was never worse than 30' for each waypoint - most of the time within 20'. I hiked all the way up to Temple Hill Gap and back down the Temple Hill trail using the provided route and waypoints perfectly.

Had I been lost I would have been able to find the trail very easily. The trick, as I thought, was having the waypoints connected instead of just dots on a blank screen.

Now if I could find the entire AT in NC/TN I'd be a happy camper. :)

Actually, more useful to me at the moment would be the BMT through the Smokies.....

perrito
12-28-2010, 16:22
I've used the Backpacker tracks and really like them. The spots along the tracks are usually ~50' apart, but since the limit on points per track is 500, that gives you less than 5 miles per track. Play around with combining tracks in the Mapsource software and then chopping them into 500-point pieces. It's not that hard. Just save the track you're working on as a new name just in case you screw something up. You can give the tracks whatever color you like too.

Also, gpsfiledepot.com files are easy to use. The ones I have install to a folder of your chosing and are then loadable in Mapsource. No big deal. Try them. They're free and usually of excellent quality. Beats paying $100.

Tom Murphy
12-28-2010, 17:05
The default map in all of the Garmin GPS units is not suitable for hiking.

I downloaded a free map from gpsfiledepot.com for my area.

Then I downloaded the free file convertor from GPSbabel.org and converted it to the format I needed.

Then I downloaded the GARMIN software to allow me to load the map onto the GPS.

But I needed to buy a microSD card with adequate memory (relatively inexpensive).

I could have just bought a preloaded microSD card with the 24K topo map for my area and inserted it into the GPS but those are expensive at ~$125. each AND they are based on the USGS topos....

Without a topo map installed in the GPS, you are better off using the GPS to lay down a "cookie crumb" track to get you back to where you were.

With a topo map installed in the GPS, it becomes an incredible tool; you will not need trails since you are never lost.

I still use a map/compass/altimeter. I turn on the GPS at key points to set waypoints and confirm my location.

My orientating skills have improved tremendously with the GPS as feedback; especially my "dead reckoning".

jfan
12-30-2010, 22:11
You said you used natgeo maps? The TOPO! program allows you to print maps with your routes and waypoints on them. I have a Garmin Venture HC....very similar stripped down version to yours I think. I was able to upload the free maps mentioned earlier onto this unit.....then I uploaded the routes and waypoints from TOPO and they overlayed on the GPS maps without a hitch. I've heard a lot of complaints about the TOPO program, but I find it very easy to use to plot routes and waypoints. For me it's much easier than the Garmin program.

To summarize, here's what I do:

1) Open the TOPO quad(s) for the area I'll be hiking
2) Draw my route and plot the waypoints
3) Install the appropriate map onto my GPS (the unit doesn't have SD capability and I'm limited to the onboard memory so I check and delete past maps/routes if necessary)
4) Upload the routes and waypoints onto the GPS
5) When you open the route on the GPS, it usually displays with it already superimposed over the map. If not, select "show map".
6) Print the TOPO map of your route for a hard copy
7) DONE!

10-K
12-31-2010, 09:07
Ok, I downloaded the TN topo, installed it and it shows up in Mapsource.

I also opened up a route with waypoints for the AT from Spivey's Gap to Erwin and these superimposed on the topo map (that's great!)

When I try to send this to my GPS it will only send the route and waypoints. The tickbox to include the Map is grayed out.

What am I missing?

Roland
12-31-2010, 11:28
Perfect! I found a trip from Nolichucky River to Spivey Gap and put it on my GPS. ~

Now if I could find the entire AT in NC/TN I'd be a happy camper. :)
~

Doesn't the ATC website offer a centerline GPS track for the entire AT? I've seen mention of this on WB before.

10-K
12-31-2010, 12:34
Woo hoo! Progress.....

I've got the TN topo loaded into Mapsource, I've superimposed the route from Spivey's Gap to Uncle Johnny's on the topo map, complete with waypoints and I've successfully transfererd all that to my GPS.

Next dumb question... I can't seem to find any logic to waypoint numbering sequence... it seems to be in random order... 1, 2, 4, 5, 3, 81, 7, 6, etc. etc.

What's up with that?

couscous
12-31-2010, 12:45
Yes, the ATC offers centerline - parking - shelter data
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805623/k.438D/Appalachian_Trail_GIS_and_GPS_Data.htm
The GPS units and their corresponding software are just poorly designed to gather data from multiple sources and in multiple formats.

perrito
12-31-2010, 14:16
Woo hoo! Progress.....

I've got the TN topo loaded into Mapsource, I've superimposed the route from Spivey's Gap to Uncle Johnny's on the topo map, complete with waypoints and I've successfully transfererd all that to my GPS.

Next dumb question... I can't seem to find any logic to waypoint numbering sequence... it seems to be in random order... 1, 2, 4, 5, 3, 81, 7, 6, etc. etc.

What's up with that?

Are you referring to the Backpacker waypoints?

10-K
12-31-2010, 14:21
Are you referring to the Backpacker waypoints?

Yes, actually...

perrito
12-31-2010, 16:32
Yes, actually...
I always rename them in Mapsource in the order that I am traveling. You can zoom in on them on the map to see what order they are in.

10-K
12-31-2010, 16:55
I always rename them in Mapsource in the order that I am traveling. You can zoom in on them on the map to see what order they are in.

I was afraid of that. :)

I wonder how they get out of order like that?

perrito
12-31-2010, 18:25
I was afraid of that. :)

I wonder how they get out of order like that?
Another issue is that if you want to load multiple GPX files with waypoints, you always end up with repeat names and that's not good. You pretty much have to rename them. It's not really a big deal.

You know how the AT guides have NJ section 1, NJ section 2, etc.? I just rename the waypoints to NJ2-1, NJ2-2, etc. for NJ section 2 waypoint 1, ...

Something to do on a calm night in front of the TV. :)

58starter
12-31-2010, 18:26
10k I have the DeLorme P40. The topo 8 program has the AT marked on it already with a dotted line. I have the Max of 200 waypoints marked in my address book for the program. I am able to Mark all the shelters , and gaps for the trail I am hiking then download that route to my hand held GPS. It works very well for me. I have never hiked in the snow so I cannot tell you if it will work. I have hiked from Springer to Fontana with it so far and it is always correct within +- 15 ft.

10-K
12-31-2010, 18:29
10k I have the DeLorme P40. The topo 8 program has the AT marked on it already with a dotted line. I have the Max of 200 waypoints marked in my address book for the program. I am able to Mark all the shelters , and gaps for the trail I am hiking then download that route to my hand held GPS. It works very well for me. I have never hiked in the snow so I cannot tell you if it will work. I have hiked from Springer to Fontana with it so far and it is always correct within +- 15 ft.

I almost got the DeLorme. :)

10-K
01-06-2011, 15:19
Alright, I think I've got it going on....

I loaded the TN and NC topo maps from gpsfiledepot.com onto my GPS....

Then, with my Nat Geo Southern Appalachian map software I created a route (in this case, the BMT through GSMNP) and transferred said route with waypoints to the GPS and now when I load that route on the GPS it brings up the topo with the route and waypoints displayed.

Pretty slick!

Edited to add: It was a lot easier when I quit trying to do it in Windows and moved to my Macbook. :)

colonel r
01-06-2011, 16:39
Look here for some center line data:

http://guymott.com/atgps.html

perrito
01-06-2011, 17:17
Look here for some center line data:

http://guymott.com/atgps.html

Thanks for the link. Good stuff.

10-K
01-10-2011, 10:45
Basecamp is 1000x times better than Mapsource.

And there is a great Mac version!

colonel r
01-10-2011, 11:15
Basecamp is 1000x times better than Mapsource.

And there is a great Mac version!

Could elaborate on this? I have used both but am a newcomer to Basecamp. The advantages are not obvious to me.

Col R

Wise Old Owl
01-10-2011, 12:19
10-k the map waypoints are not out of order, there is a sequence-its just stupid, 10 comes before one, the computer is ok with it, the Japanese programmer who wrote the code didn't factor that in. like so many other mistakes.