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maybe clem
12-28-2010, 19:38
Does anyone know about how many miles are above the treeline?

Fog Horn
12-28-2010, 19:48
Its my understanding from the trail journals and the guide books that many of the parks in the AT do not allow you to camp above the treeline so you won't need to worry about bear proofing your food overnight up there.

I'm interested to know what the experienced hikers have to say about this, though.

maybe clem
12-28-2010, 20:48
CT, not AT.

mcskinney
12-29-2010, 02:22
you wont see a lot of black bears on the CT above treeline, in fact I've never seen a bear above treeline in 15+ years of backpacking Colorado wilderness.

I'd be more concerned with mice or marmots snooping around.
Tie your food bag to your hiking pole to keep it out of rodent reach and it should be good, place the hiking pole 100 or so ft away from your camp.

If this isn't practical for you you could always carry an ursak for peace of mind, overkill imho, or descend to treeline.

fiddlehead
12-29-2010, 04:15
I've always slept with it.

Lone Wolf
12-29-2010, 04:47
sleep with it

MedicineMan
12-29-2010, 08:24
I knew he was going to say that HA!

SouthMark
12-29-2010, 09:15
Of course he was going to say that. If it ain't t broke don't fix it.

the goat
12-29-2010, 10:19
you can sleep with your food pretty much anywhere on the AT.

Hole-In-The-Hat
12-29-2010, 10:47
Usually you'll want to camp below treeline to reduce your worries if a lightning storm comes up. This is not too hard for most of the trail, however there are ~41 miles between Spring Creek Pass and Elk Creek that are more of a challenge. This stretch, which includes Cataract Ridge, is almost entirely above treeline.

For this part of your trip, you may want to drop down to treeline to camp. However if the weather is clear and you decide to camp near the trail, bears are really not much of a problem.

Tilly
12-29-2010, 12:21
Has anyone found that rodents and other small critters are a problem on the trail? I would think that I would just sleep with my food in the tent when above treeline...but the thought of a midnight marmot visit doesn't appeal.

the goat
12-29-2010, 12:23
Has anyone found that rodents and other small critters are a problem on the trail? I would think that I would just sleep with my food in the tent when above treeline...but the thought of a midnight marmot visit doesn't appeal.

when we were cowboy camping on blackrock cliffs a rodent of some sort stole my buddy's socks. probably a rat taking them to his nest.

surprisingly, nothing touched our food....

Hole-In-The-Hat
12-29-2010, 12:27
Yes, there are a few small animals that would like your food or anything with sweat on it -- rabbits, mice, marmots, etc. Not a huge problem, but in ~500 miles you might encounter a couple. Hang your food when you can, or keep it nearby -- they're usually easy to shoo away.

handlebar
12-29-2010, 16:11
Slept with mine on the CT section that shares tread with the CDT. Never any problems. Did the same on the PCT except for where a bear can was required. Only once did I have a problem and it was with mice at an "established" campground 7 mi S of the road to Stehekin. I'd been using my bear bag line as a line to dry clothes and wound up attaching my food bag to it when the mouse just wouldn't be scared away.

Highway Man
12-29-2010, 18:47
A single stretch above the tree line may be equal to 1~2 hour walking. You can always pick up a low spot to camp at the night if you're not too fascinated about watching sun rise or sunset. Actually I believe one could have greater chance of seeing bears at lower altitude. I met bears twice on the trail next to mixed woods last summer. Also I heard coyotes howling around my camps at night a couple of times.

I only camped above the tree lines a few nights (following the rules, "climb high, sleep low"). Either way, I just hung my food bag on a nearby tree, or kept it under my tent if it rained, and never had a problem with any animals. But don't eat fish!

Pioneer Spirit
12-29-2010, 20:14
I have no experience with large animals and food but I would like to add this information from a blog I follow.
For your consideration and comments:



There was a little controversy about a comment I made back in the High Sierras about sleeping with my food at night, and now seems like a good time to explain my thoughts about bears and food. I'm convinced that the absolutely best way to protect one's food from bears is to not leave it unattended. In all of my years of backpacking, I've met a lot of people who've told me about an instance of a bear getting into their food. The one thing in common in every single case was that they had left their food unattended. Most of the time, they hung their food bags in a tree and a bear had all night to figure out how to get it down and did so. In a couple of cases, someone left their pack at a shelter on the AT went off for several minutes to get water and came back to find a bear pawing through their pack. Regardless of the circumstances, though, in every single case when a bear got into someone's food, it was because the food was left unattended.


I'd like to hear your comments, there is also more to this blog at: http://www.anotherlongwalk.com/2010/12/calm-after-storm.html

DuctTape
01-02-2011, 21:12
Sleep with it, but make sure it's close at hand. I left a Camelbak outside my tent above treeline overnight, and woke to find the bite valve all chewed up.

DuctTape
01-02-2011, 21:14
Sleep with it, but keep it close at hand. I've left a Camelback outside my tent overnight above treeline, only to wake and find the bite valve all chewed up.

Wise Old Owl
01-02-2011, 21:59
you wont see a lot of black bears on the CT above treeline, in fact I've never seen a bear above treeline in 15+ years of backpacking Colorado wilderness.

I'd be more concerned with mice or marmots snooping around.
Tie your food bag to your hiking pole to keep it out of rodent reach and it should be good, place the hiking pole 100 or so ft away from your camp.

If this isn't practical for you you could always carry an ursak for peace of mind, overkill imho, or descend to treeline.

Granted you are talking about Colorado - I remembered this fact

Ecology and bear use of alpine moth aggregations: Bear food habits research documented that bears in the Greater Glacier Ecosystem (GGE) feed on army cutworm moths. From entomological studies, it was known that these moths migrate in early summer from the Great Plains to spend the summer in the Rocky Mountains. In Glacier NP, army cutworm moths spend their days resting in the cool spaces between jumbled rocks in talus fields near the tops of some of Glacier's highest peaks. The moths emerge at night to feed on nearby flower nectar. Research on bear use of moths in the GGE and the alpine ecology of army cutworm moths estimated the nutritional importance of this diet item; during peak feeding periods when moths are abundant, bears eat approx. 40,000 moths/day which is equivalent to 20,000 kcal/day. http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/files/norock/research/moth.jpgThis study also addressed moth densities in talus fields where bears feed, physical parameters of known moth aggregation sites, locations of potential moth sites modeled on a GIS, body composition and migration potential of moths and the energetic cost of climber disturbance of bears feeding on moths. This work is reported in White et al. (1998 (http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/research/grizzlyb.htm#white))(1998 (http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/research/grizzlyb.htm#white))and (1999 (http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/research/grizzlyb.htm#white)).

BitBucket
01-02-2011, 22:17
Put it in a "RatSack" and then sleep with it...no worries other than the extra 12 oz for the sack...

http://www.armoredoutdoorgear.com/BUY%20ME%20PAGE.htm

Mags
01-02-2011, 23:15
If you are really concerned about food, cook and sleep in two different areas. Cook dinner, eat and then hike on a mile or so.

FWIW, I never hang my food in all my CO backpacking unless regulations state otherwise (e.g. RMNP now requires you to use a bear canister)

garlic08
01-03-2011, 00:03
I agree that on the CT, sleeping with your food above treeline is your best option, and that's the only time I sleep with my food. When a tree is convenient, I hang it because I don't always want to keep that close an eye on it. Once in Colorado a particularly nasty ermine raided my food bag, chewing right through my pack to get to it, when I was getting water at a stream about 20' away from my pack. Another time ravens got to it when I was less than 100' away. It's good advice to never leave your food unattended.

To disprove the "unattended food only" theory: I talked with one PCT hiker who had a bear literally reach over her shoulder and steal food out of her bear cannister which was sitting open right in front of her. This was at Tuolumne Meadows. This was not hearsay or second-hand--I heard it from the hiker herself and she's a very experienced hiker and very credible.

mcskinney
01-07-2011, 05:36
To disprove the "unattended food only" theory: I talked with one PCT hiker who had a bear literally reach over her shoulder and steal food out of her bear cannister which was sitting open right in front of her. This was at Tuolumne Meadows. This was not hearsay or second-hand--I heard it from the hiker herself and she's a very experienced hiker and very credible.


I would have loved to have seen that!

Sly
01-07-2011, 08:49
This was not hearsay or second-hand--I heard it from the hiker herself and she's a very experienced hiker and very credible.

If wasn't hearsay then, it's hearsay now. ;)

Above treeline, unless you have a bear canister, you really can't do anything with your food but sleep with it.

LoneRidgeRunner
01-07-2011, 08:54
you can sleep with your food pretty much anywhere on the AT.
I read a post somewhere here just a few days ago about a bear stealing some one's food at a shelter....on the AT .......sleep with your food if you want ..hopefully the marauding bear won't chew your head off to get to your food bag "pillow"

mcskinney
01-08-2011, 05:37
I've had mice above tree line in CO. Woke to a mouse eating a macadamia nut in my tent this summer at 12,000 ft.

heavyfoot
03-17-2012, 19:43
For those of us who don't sleep with food in the tent, the options are extra hiking (to get below the treeline) or bear canisters?

JAK
03-17-2012, 20:24
I've had mice above tree line in CO. Woke to a mouse eating a macadamia nut in my tent this summer at 12,000 ft.

Kilimanjaro is a snow-covered mountain 19,710 feet high, and is said to be the highest mountain in Africa. Its western summit is called the Masai 'Ngaje Ngai', the House of God. Close to the western summit there is a dried and frozen carcas of a common field mouse. No one has explained what the mouse was seeking at that altitude.

bearcreek
03-17-2012, 20:58
Sleep with it? Why? Just put the food out of your tent. If you lose it, it's not the end of the world. I can't imagine why you would sleep with it. (A little common sense goes a long ways)

I have spent a lot of time on the CT. I have seen bears above timberline a couple of times, but it is not common. When they are above timberline is usually in the late season - September being the main month. They forage on berries and follow the ripening crop upwards. When you run out of food you will run out of bears.

Forgetting about bears, the big issue is weather. The part of the CT where there just aren't any trees for more than a day (Cataract Ridge) has lots of ups and downs, but it's all high (12-13K). Best to try to sleep in one of the lower spots if you can. After leaving Spring Creek, there are good sheltered campsites at the south end of Carson Saddle, by Cataract Lake, and in Cuba Gulch. From Cuba Gulch you can easily make it down into Elk Creek in a day. This is the most spectacular part of the CT so enjoy!

Mountain Mike
03-17-2012, 22:04
Sleep with it. I only personally know one hiker that got woken up by a bear schreading open his tent in search of his food. His screams scared the bear away though & saved his $20 worth of food.

Edwardo Rodriguez
03-17-2012, 22:30
I will taking this on the AT next year http://www.ursack.com/

Hole-In-The-Hat
03-17-2012, 22:51
I think an odor-proof bag could be a good alternative to hanging food when on the Colorado Trail. http://www.rei.com/product/758707/loksak-opsak-odor-proof-barrier-bags-20-x-125
(http://www.rei.com/product/758707/loksak-opsak-odor-proof-barrier-bags-20-x-125)
This is what Andrew Skurka used for his 4,700-mile Alaska-Yukon Expedition 2010...

fiddlehead
03-18-2012, 03:09
I had an interesting night sleeping above treeline.
I wrote it up in my blog here (http://fiddlehead.wordpress.com/2008/07/26/my-russell-stover-candy-story-and-finish-of-my-98-thru-of-the-cdt/)


It was my last night of my NOBO CDT hike in '98.

RodentWhisperer
03-18-2012, 22:15
OK, I don't mean to keep flogging a dead horse here, but I've got to ask. If one is planning on thru-hiking the CT (like I am), would it be safe to:
1) not plan on hanging one's food bag, ever, but instead
2) carefully pack all your "smellables" into OPSacks, which should be
3) placed near to one's quarters in order to "shoo away" the varmints?

Have I understood this thread correctly? Should I leave the food-hanging cord at home?

I can sort of see that strategy working, if black bears are indeed as rare as I think they are above treeline. It might be because I've a very thick head, but I don't like the idea of "sleeping with it;" if that means placing the food as close to you as possible, then your tent's vestibule (or your tarp's outer edge) seem like the best options.

fiddlehead
03-18-2012, 23:16
Personally, I like to raise my feet a bit when I'm sleeping.
So, I use the foodbag to do this.

Hole-In-The-Hat
03-19-2012, 00:17
When I did the CT, I hung my food almost every night. But it's a bit of a joke, really... it almost always ends up a little too low, or a little too close to the trunk of the tree. I only saw fresh sign of bear once in the month I was out there - and I haven't talked to anyone on the CT who has had bear trouble.

I've since bought an Opsak bag, and on my future trips in the Colorado Rockies I will use it. Like RodentWhisperer (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?38229-RodentWhisperer), I don't like the idea of sleeping with it - but I will keep it near my shelter so I have a chance to defend it if a bear or other animal shows interest.

Sailing_Faith
03-19-2012, 00:23
Kilimanjaro is a snow-covered mountain 19,710 feet high, and is said to be the highest mountain in Africa. Its western summit is called the Masai 'Ngaje Ngai', the House of God. Close to the western summit there is a dried and frozen carcas of a common field mouse. No one has explained what the mouse was seeking at that altitude.

In 38 minutes it will be midnight where I am. I might have gone all day without learning my 'one thing' for the day if I had not read your post... thanks.

... of course now I will lay awake wondering what he was doing up there.... did he have a small rusty o2 tank strapped to his back?

RodentWhisperer
03-19-2012, 11:41
When I did the CT, I hung my food almost every night. But it's a bit of a joke, really... it almost always ends up a little too low, or a little too close to the trunk of the tree. I only saw fresh sign of bear once in the month I was out there - and I haven't talked to anyone on the CT who has had bear trouble.

Thinking last night, I thought it seemed rather pointless, too-- unless you can do the between-two-trees method, there seems to be little hope of distancing the bag from a tree trunk. You'd be dealing with Englemann spruce, lodgepole pines, and aspens when below treeline, and they just don't have wide branches. There would likely be some ponderosa pines below 9K, but you'd be above that 90% of the time.

Sevsa
03-19-2012, 13:19
Can't forget getting woken up in the middle of the night by a porcupine pulling on my bootlace and therefore pulling my boot from under my head in a shelter in NJ. Leather and sweat was much more interesting than food.

Cookerhiker
03-19-2012, 15:43
Slept with my food on last year's thruhike - no bears, not even signs of them.

bearcreek
03-19-2012, 18:41
Don't kid yourself. There are lots of bears out there. (Particularly in the San Juans.) There were 1162 bear sightings in the Durango area in 2010 alone. (Not a misprint) http://durangoherald.com/article/20110630/NEWS06/706309984/0/s/Bears-don%E2%80%99t-know-the-law We had an incident recently where the body of a person camping near town was found partially eaten by a bear. (No conclusion was reached whether he died before or after the bear visit, but they found human tissue in the bear that was snacking on him.)

I have been intimately involved with the Colorado Trail for a number of years and have completed it five times. I have seen fifteen or so bears while hiking, biking, and doing trail work. All but two of those were between Eddiesville and Durango. (Segments 20-28) I have been on the adopter crew for the Elk Creek portion of Segment 24 and bears are commonly seen there. I know of several incidents where bears along the Colorado Trail have relieved people of food, damaged tents, or bluff charged hikers. There ARE some problem bears living along the CT.

We always cook a fair distance from where we sleep and hang our food if possible. The two cord method is definitely superior and recommended. It will almost always work effectively.

It's up to you.

RodentWhisperer
03-19-2012, 20:20
@bearcreek, that's actually something of a relief. It's not relieving to see that people have had their tents damaged, food stolen and (God forbid) their flesh eaten by bears. But I'm glad to see that my anxieties aren't paranoia.

I've not checked the forum to see if you've posted onto it before. So tell me-- how would you recommend storing your food when camping above treeline?

bearcreek
03-19-2012, 21:11
I put my food bag outside 100' or so from the tent. Haven't lost any food yet, but if I do at least I will be able to hike out for more....

Segments 23 and 24.(Above Spring Creek to Elk Creek)are the only segments where you have no trees for long distances. I have spent lot of time in there and have never encountered a bear. It is the home of the largest elk herd in Colorado. You are almost guaranteed to see elk.

"I've not checked the forum to see if you've posted onto it before."

When checking bona fides, start here:
http://www.bearcreeksurvey.com

RodentWhisperer
03-19-2012, 22:14
I put my food bag outside 100' or so from the tent. Haven't lost any food yet, but if I do at least I will be able to hike out for more.... When checking bona fides, start here:
http://www.bearcreeksurvey.com

Thanks for the advice. What's your opinion of Ursacks?

Oklahoma
03-20-2012, 13:51
I store food above the tree line with a system of ropes and pulleys......the mules do most of the work.