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SavageLlama
12-22-2004, 13:28
Be careful when you got out for that winter hike.. or you may end up like this numbnut.


Hiker stuck in Smokies awaits rescue
December 22, 2004
Associated Press Newswires (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow(%20'FIISrcDetails','?from=article&ids=aprs');void(0);)

COSBY, Tenn. (AP) - Rescuers were attempting on Wednesday to reach a hiker who collapsed along the snow-covered Appalachian Trail in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.

David Dinwiddie, 62, of Knoxville, called 911 on his cell phone on Tuesday.

Park officials believe he may have frostbite on both hands and has suffered from hypothermia. He spent Tuesday night in subfreezing temperatures and two feet of snow on the 5,000-foot-high section of the trail.

The park was sending a crew with a litter to carry him out, and they were prepared to spend the night with him on the trail if necessary.

Officials were not sure of Dinwiddie's exact location when he called 911, and the signal was too weak to determine his exact problem.

Later they learned his location from three hikers who saw him.

Rescue aircraft could not fly Wednesday morning because of high winds.

Park officials said Dinwiddie is an experienced winter backpacker.

------

The Solemates
12-22-2004, 13:30
I think the name says it all....Dinwiddie.

Lone Wolf
12-22-2004, 13:35
He may have ******ed up but he's still a human being with a family. I hope he's okay. Hold criticism till you hear the whole story.

wacocelt
12-22-2004, 13:46
I agree with L.Wolf, the old guy might have had any number of natural illness' injuries which caused him to need rescue.

MisterSweetie
12-22-2004, 13:52
The article says he is an "experienced winter backpacker".. so what did he really do wrong here? Maybe he "collapsed" because of a stroke or something! The article gives no indication that his problem was due to stupidity or lack of preparedness. So why is he a "numbnut" aside from the real and likely possibility that his nuts were in fact numb from the cold?

c.coyle
12-22-2004, 14:19
I think the name says it all....Dinwiddie.

Do you, now? He collapsed, therefore he must be weak and/or stupid.

Percival
12-22-2004, 14:21
So why is he a "numbnut" aside from the real and likely possibility that his nuts were in fact numb from the cold?
Hmmm ... Being numb is not the same a being dumb. But if he was dumb in the cold, his nuts would be numb. He could be both dumb and numb.

Lion King
12-22-2004, 14:24
Could happen to anyone at anytime.

Sometimes when sh$t happens you arent aware of it till its too late...maybe this happend to him.

There are plenty of stories of very experianced people who die...things change, experiance teaches us what we know up until the time when something we havent experianced raises its head, and we can only hope that when it does, something in us is powerful enough to make the right choices that keep us alive.

Even if he made a stupid mistake, its a shame. and degrading someone for knowing only partial facts is humiliating to the situation and the concern of anyone involved.

The Solemates
12-22-2004, 14:58
Sorry for the above comment. I agree with everyone who has put me in my place.

Percival
12-22-2004, 15:31
Sorry for the above comment. I agree with everyone who has put me in my place.
I agree with your original assessment. Dimwittie probably is a dumbass who got exhausted postholing in the deep snow when he should have known better, then collapsed and froze his nuts off. A Darwin Award candidate.

Percival
12-22-2004, 15:59
The park was sending a crew with a litter to carry him out, and they were prepared to spend the night with him on the trail if necessary.
This really pains me. We shouldn't be sending park service employees to hike up to 5,000 feet and carry some numbnut out on a guerney in 4 foot snowdrifts. Nature's job is to weed out fools like that.

Lone Wolf
12-22-2004, 16:02
You're a friggin idiot Percy. :)

Puck
12-22-2004, 16:03
I think I will reserve judgement untill some facts and details are revealed.

It is important to analyze these incidents for educational purposes. Was he prepared physicaly and mentaly. Was there a lapse of judgement? Or did ***** just happen.

Lilred
12-22-2004, 16:15
This really pains me. We shouldn't be sending park service employees to hike up to 5,000 feet and carry some numbnut out on a guerney in 4 foot snowdrifts. Nature's job is to weed out fools like that.


Percival,
We'll all remember you said this when something happens to you on a trail and you need help. Where's your compassion? Where's your sense of decency? What goes around comes around........

c.coyle
12-22-2004, 16:43
Looks like he's an experienced hiker who just fell. S**t apparently happened:

12/22/04 News Article (http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/gs_news/article/0,1406,KNS_392_3418206,00.html)

Big Guy
12-22-2004, 16:50
The one think I have learned from hiking is that sometimes things are not as they appear. I agree that we should not pass judgement on others. Each of us in our hiking experience can look back and think of really stupid things we did. In those instances we were either lucky we did not need help or someone else on the trail was willing to help. We need to be supportive and not demeaning or critical of others when we hear of these types of cases until all the facts are know..

Percival
12-22-2004, 17:48
If I go out seeking the Reaper, I'm liable to find him. Dimwittie found him, before misguided park policies interfered. Now the idiot will just have to make another appointment, and next time the Reaper will be some pissed for being stood up.

Bolo
12-22-2004, 18:24
Percival,

Your ridiculous little o...pinion has been noted. :bse

Bolo

TNadine
12-22-2004, 18:28
You out on an icy ridge, and then you slip and twist something - it doesn't matter how friggin' experienced you are. Body is sedentary; therefore, body heat is quickly lost, and hypothermia sets in. If you hike alone, that can happen fo sho! Ever watch "Touching the Void?" Ever read "Lost!"?

:cool:

humanpackmule
12-22-2004, 19:00
I lurk here occaisionally never felt a need to post. Now I know why.

I personally know David.

David has been part of the Parks SAR effort since, well since they had a SAR effort as far as I am aware.

Think of any lost hiker scenarios you remember were they called in more than just park personell. David was there.

The dude knows his **** and has hiked that whole area on and off trail many times over in every season. I would bet anything he is more experienced than ANY of his detractors.

This will be the first time in 36 years that David will miss spending New Years Eve at Spence Field.

David is the kind of guy that goes the extra mile for you. Last March he offered to help shuttle the Troop Van for us. When we finished the hike. David was there cooking dinner for the bunch of us, brought out his home brewed rootbeer to share, stayed up most of the night telling the boys stories of his adventures in the woods and the next morning cooked fresh doughnuts for everyone. Completely unasked.

David is a good guy and deserves support.

He'd do the same for you.

But then again he can't cause he was out there hiking and somehow got into trouble while y'all were busy sitting behind a compter screen talking crap.

Bye bye now.

jlb2012
12-22-2004, 19:26
dang HPM - you know how to make an entrance (grin)

welcome to whiteblaze.net, a kinder gentler place devoted to the AT - but given all that its not much different than TT is it?

Percival
12-22-2004, 19:47
The dude knows his **** and has hiked that whole area on and off trail many times over in every season. I would bet anything he is more experienced than ANY of his detractors.
If he's that experienced, it must have been time for him to go. He was 60 years old and going to meet the Reaper. Until we interfered. Don't fool with Mother Nature, if you know what's good for you.

Dimwittie was going to meet his Maker the way the Eskimos do, by going out on the snow. Up there, a 60 y.o. eskimo will go out and sit on the ice by the sea, and die with dignity. Not so here. We have to "search and rescue" and carry the decrepit body back kicking and screaming on a guerney. Enough is enough. Let the man reach his destination.

orangebug
12-22-2004, 19:56
Anyone know how that Ignore Button works?

Lion King
12-22-2004, 20:09
If he's that experienced, it must have been time for him to go. He was 60 years old and going to meet the Reaper. Until we interfered. Don't fool with Mother Nature, if you know what's good for you.

Dimwittie was going to meet his Maker the way the Eskimos do, by going out on the snow. Up there, a 60 y.o. eskimo will go out and sit on the ice by the sea, and die with dignity. Not so here. We have to "search and rescue" and carry the decrepit body back kicking and screaming on a guerney. Enough is enough. Let the man reach his destination.
Its a beautiful day...you are out walking and loving it. Suddenly a storm blows in, lightening strikes you, it makes you bounce about fifty yards onto a cliffs edge, where suddenly the scree gives and you fall head over hills down down down into a raging rapid river, your pack wieght is holding you under and you can see the light, above you are other hikers...they want to help you, they really do, but they remember your words.

They hear your screams for help and htey note that the longing for life and one the desire for one more adventure is in your voice, but it would be wrong for them to stop the reaper from sowing.

Your body slams into a hydrolic and you go end over end, your head is bashing into the rocks, you are screaming through blood and water as it chokes you to death...your hands reach for the little sunlight your swollen eyes let in...you can see the hikers standing there...watching you die.

ummmmmmmmmmmm...that doesnt sound right or okay to me.

Hiking and the people out here do care about others, because no matter how careful you are, and no matter how much you know sh$t can indeed and does happen.

ga>me>ak
12-22-2004, 20:32
Percival....hope you don't need help out on the trail, and people recognize you from your posts. can you say, oh chiiiiiiiiiit!!!

To all others, dont feed the troll.

ga>me>ak
12-22-2004, 20:35
Where's the #$@! edit button?
Hey Perv, did the reaper decide to torture you. He left your body but took your brain :bse

The Old Fhart
12-22-2004, 20:55
This is kind of scary, maybe it is just the Christmas spirit, but I’m agreeing with Lone Wolf 100% on this issue. Having been on some search and rescues I never asked if the person in trouble “deserved” help or not, that they needed help was enough.

As to those who think Percival has posted the stupidest, most heartless things possible on this thread, I have great confidence in his ability to sink even lower. I don’t know that he is a troll but has anyone ever noticed his screen name is an anagram for “evil crap”?

humanpackmule
12-22-2004, 21:02
Whats happening HOI? Merry Christmas.

Percival you are an arrogant jackass and utterly devoid of class.
Thanks for confirming it for everyone else to see. Now I can rest assured that I never need give consideration to anything that ever blows out your piehole. Feel free to continue to gibber like an ignorant fool.

Much the same if you were ever in trouble David and I would still carry your decrepit body back kicking and screaming on a guerney.

Admin, I apologise to you and the rest of the board.
Carry on.

Glee
12-22-2004, 21:07
I think I know what Percivil is so upset about and how to solve the problem .... If you read his post on Wool Mittens today:

Itchy wool mitts




<HR color=#339966 SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->I just bought a pair of Dachstein boiled wool mitts, and they itch. They also shed wool fibers on my hand when I take them off. Any solution?



Hmm, ya I would take them on a hike into the Smokies tonight and wear nothing but the mitts. I promise ya by morning they won't itch at all...:jump
<!-- / message -->

Tn Bandit
12-22-2004, 21:34
It's true anything can and will happen. He was experienced with the Smokies but the bad part was he didn't register with the backcountry office and didn't let any family members know where he was going. We were up there two weeks ago and the snow was heavy which made for a slow trail. But noticed I said "we", I do and enjoy solo hiking and backpacking but not in the winter. Last report they will have to stay one more night with him.
TN Bandit
SMHC
Localhikes.com

minnesotasmith
12-22-2004, 22:04
"I agree that we should not pass judgement on others."

Oh? There shouldn't be such things as grades in school, scores in sports, winners and losers in beauty contests (or whom you decide to marry)? The military shouldn't have different ranks? Everyone applying to get into medical school or to get a job should all have an equally random chance of getting in? The salesman who sells 5x as much product as the guy next to him should get the exact same bonus? Whether or not someone goes to jail for 20 years shouldn't have anything to do with whether or not they committed a crime?

No, I can't see that. The closest societies have ever come to operating that way are communist countries (and a very few shortlived religious groups), and even they had to back down from that way of operating in short order, it being so impossible for human nature, or even just living at all.

I find much more moral and practical Ayn Rand's advice: "Judge, and prepare to be judged." Every action in your life, even every conscious breath is a decision, and needs as much as possible to be a considered one, a correct judgement, about which no shame for making is needed.

Frosty
12-22-2004, 22:49
There are plenty of stories of very experianced people who die....I've heard it said that the difference between an epic adventure and a tragedy is that if you survive, it's called an epic adventure.

steve hiker
12-22-2004, 23:01
"Judge, and prepare to be judged." Every action in your life, even every conscious breath is a decision, and needs as much as possible to be a considered one, a correct judgement, about which no shame for making is needed.
AMEN. This earth is God's testing ground for the faithful, and at the end there will be a final Judgement Day. Do not think you will not be called forth to stand before the Lord, and account for your acts.

But even if you have sinned much, you can survive Judgement if you bow down and REPENT before the Lord's son, Jesus Christ. Do not let these most holy days pass by without coming clean to God. For there is not much time left before His return and the Day of Reckoning. These are the final days, the End Times.

Lilred
12-22-2004, 23:06
"I agree that we should not pass judgement on others."

Oh? There shouldn't be such things as grades in school, scores in sports, winners and losers in beauty contests (or whom you decide to marry)? The military shouldn't have different ranks? Everyone applying to get into medical school or to get a job should all have an equally random chance of getting in? The salesman who sells 5x as much product as the guy next to him should get the exact same bonus? Whether or not someone goes to jail for 20 years shouldn't have anything to do with whether or not they committed a crime?

No, I can't see that. The closest societies have ever come to operating that way are communist countries (and a very few shortlived religious groups), and even they had to back down from that way of operating in short order, it being so impossible for human nature, or even just living at all.

I find much more moral and practical Ayn Rand's advice: "Judge, and prepare to be judged." Every action in your life, even every conscious breath is a decision, and needs as much as possible to be a considered one, a correct judgement, about which no shame for making is needed.


Hey MS,
Would be nice if you could keep things in context. That poster was referring to passing judgement on other hikers who make or don't make mistakes while hiking. Try to stay on topic MS.

Lilred
12-22-2004, 23:09
For there is not much time left before His return and the Day of Reckoning. These are the final days, the End Times.


Willk,
How would you know? The bible clearly states that only the Father knows when the end will be. I KNOW you don't have inside information. Maybe instead of preaching, you oughta read that bible you thump so much. :rolleyes:

weary
12-22-2004, 23:20
I've only half read this thread, so I won't comment on what's happening tonight in the Smokies. But I continue to worry about the growing clamor for ultralite backpacking. We all carry useless things and wise folks will always minimize pack weight within the limits of safety.

But we should also all recognize that the gear that serves perfectly well most of the time, from time to time becomes inadequate. Those who choose to carry minimum weight should also expect to either die or be rescued from time to time.

Yes. I know for most rescue is never needed. But everyone should also recognize that from time to time people die rescuing those who were ill prepared either out of ignorance, or philosophy, or because ultralight packs are now the current fad.

I do know that I've hiked many times in very severe winter conditions. My philosophy has always been to make sure I have the gear that can get me out safely, without risking anyone else. I don't and will never carry a cell phone. I go into the woods aware of the risks -- and especially aware of the added risk as one ages. That essentially means that my pack gets heavier, not lighter, as the years progress.

Whoever said 62 is aged and should be allowed to die is mumbling nonsense. But equally nonsensical is the idea that taking risks should have no consequences. We all need to judge our capabilities and gear realistically and make wise decisions uninfluenced by the likelihood that rescue may be possible.

Weary

Glee
12-22-2004, 23:25
I lurk here occaisionally never felt a need to post. Now I know why.

I personally know David.

David is a good guy and deserves support.

He'd do the same for you.

But then again he can't cause he was out there hiking and somehow got into trouble while y'all were busy sitting behind a compter screen talking crap.

Bye bye now.I hope, as I know the hundreds of others who visit this web site, that David makes it out ok and is back out hiking soon. If you’ve been reading posts on WB or for that matter any forum, then you know there will always be a few who either misspeak without thinking and those who just want to stir up trouble. This place is no different. Please keep us informed as to how he’s doing. There’s not a true hiker here who does not share in your grief and worry for your friend.

Lilred
12-22-2004, 23:36
I hope, as I know the hundreds of others who visit this web site, that David makes it out ok and is back out hiking soon. If you’ve been reading posts on WB or for that matter any forum, then you know there will always be a few who either misspeak without thinking and those who just want to stir up trouble. This place is no different. Please keep us informed as to how he’s doing. There’s not a true hiker here who does not share in your grief and worry for your friend.


I second Glee's sentiments. My prayers are with David and his rescuers tonight.

rainmaker
12-22-2004, 23:47
Thank you Glee for nicely summing up the attitude and opinion of many of us. I am sure David will get through this OK. As for Percival , this is one almost 60 year old hiker who would like a picture of Mr. know-it-all so that if the occasion ever presents itself, I can walk on by and let nature take her course. Gee, I feel better now. Ta ta...

neo
12-22-2004, 23:58
i cant believe so many people here on white blaze are making lite or fun of a fellow hikers misfortune,regardless of what happened to mr.dinwiddie,its not
some thing to laugh about,from what i gather he his very experienced hiker
any thing can happen to anybody regardless of experience,one thing for sure
nature can roar on any body,are you people proud off laughing and calling this man names,:sun neo

minnesotasmith
12-23-2004, 00:15
The other poster indicated that they thought that makind judgements about another hiker's behavior WRT safety on the Trail was inappropriate. Leaving aside the fact that here on WB members do exactly that all the time, I gave commonly encountered counterexamples to show that that is an indefensible approach to take in life -- or on the Trail.

I have not yet formed an opinion about this hiker and his misfortunes BC I do not yet have enough information. I understand where Percival is coming from; certainly, tax dollars don't need to be used in quantity to assist innumerable fools in trouble of their own making. Neither should someone always turn their back on another hiker who is in serious trouble, although that would be their right. IMO, voluntary assistance to those in trouble would be the way to go.

Weary probably has the best post on this thread so far about this event, I'd say.

tombone
12-23-2004, 00:50
the late local news reported that they brought him down the snake den mtn. trail today-some frostbite but he is in stable condition. a task force of 30 climbed to fetch him-there were not specifics as to how many were volunteers.
the early news(while he was still up on the mtn.) reported that the first responders(park service personnel)erected a tent to warm him mid-morning today. there was also considerable space given to interviews with family, including a sister who recounted hiking logs that were kept on david's hikes with his father in the gsmnp, dating back 20+ years.
we're under a flood watch now due to snowmelt-temps have ballooned to 59 which is the high for the day. i had snow laying all around through the day and now the driveway has turned to a quagmire. the high elevations have been belted over the past week with snow and ice, not to mention extreme temps and high winds.
i, too, lurk more than post. i'm amazed at some of the hair trigger typists here who start pounding on the keys just to see their rancorous stuff in print.

NICKTHEGREEK
12-23-2004, 07:31
My hat is off to the gent. I hope at 62 I'll have what it takes to backpack in the smokies in December. Hope hes is rescued quickly and has a speedy recovery.

For the critics and those who posted the snide remarks- This guy was doing it, not sitting in a warm room talking about it.

Ramble~On
12-23-2004, 08:13
If he's that experienced, it must have been time for him to go. He was 60 years old and going to meet the Reaper. Until we interfered. Don't fool with Mother Nature, if you know what's good for you.

Dimwittie was going to meet his Maker the way the Eskimos do, by going out on the snow. Up there, a 60 y.o. eskimo will go out and sit on the ice by the sea, and die with dignity. Not so here. We have to "search and rescue" and carry the decrepit body back kicking and screaming on a guerney. Enough is enough. Let the man reach his destination.
Excuse me. "Until we interfered"
"We have to "search and rescue" and carry..."
Percival....what's with the "We" stuff.

Were you there ? Have you ever been involved in any type extraction ?
Have you ever been to the Smokies in winter ?
Do you know the man you are talking about ?
Do you know anything about the circumstances regarding his hike ?
:-?

neo
12-23-2004, 08:26
i am glad mr dinwiddie is going to be ok,i am still kinda ticked off at the inviduals
that made lite of this situation,i hope mr dinwiddie makes a comeplete recovery,those individuals that made jokes about mr dinwiddie should be ashamed of themselfs.:sun neo

no ones misfortune is a laughing matter.:sun neo

C-Stepper
12-23-2004, 09:09
http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=2723738

Posted in the backpacker mag forums, a local paper ran this update to the story.

Glad he's OK...

c.coyle
12-23-2004, 10:35
Snowbound Hiker Found (12/23/2004) (http://www.thedailytimes.com/sited/story/html/181602)

Glee
12-23-2004, 11:44
Fantastic he’s relativity ok. Hopefully now this thread will look and discuss in a possitive light of what was done, be it right or wrong and how he was able to survive. (As far as we know, this doesn’t mean IMO, he did anything wrong as there are a number of things beyond are control)
This man survived in temps – 11 degrees in a wet sleeping bag. He had the knowledge to stay on the trail and in doing so was found.
Just because we’re not out there today, doesn't mean we won’t think about or go for it at 62 or even 72 years old. I’m sure he had the time to reflect on the “What if’s” & “Could have’s” He’s an experience hiker and backpacker. I’m optimistic this gentleman will be sharing his experience and will not hesitate to share both the good and bad (If Any) and what he did do survive.<O:p</O:p

grrickar
12-23-2004, 12:01
Excellent news that he was found and is okay now. With the high winds the wind chills were likely down zero or below.

bailcor
12-23-2004, 12:03
Percival - I don’t know how old you are from looking at your site, but I suspect that you are very young. I am 66 years old and have seen enough of life to know that there is nothing predictable about it. To suggest at the age of 62 that he, Dinwiddie, should meet his destiny like the Eskimos, without knowing his circumstances indicates that you have the malady of youth, believing that all history started when you were born, and the race only began when you reached the track. Dinwiddie was found at a high elevation. He didn’t fly there, he hiked there with his gear. I suspect that he is an experienced, well conditioned hiker, that ran into a little bit of bad luck. It is doled out to all of us eventually, no matter how prepared we are, or how old we are.

grrickar
12-23-2004, 12:07
From the daily times article:
{On Tuesday, Sevier County 911 picked up a weak cell phone call and transferred it to Park dispatch.
"The transmission wasn't very clear. The cell phone company was able to pinpoint the signal and give us a general direction,'' Gray said.}

The article goes on to say that a man and his son were able to give rangers GPS coordinates from where they last saw him.

I know cell phones on the trail are a controversial topic, but in this case it very well could have saved this man's life.

MOWGLI
12-23-2004, 12:08
If I go out seeking the Reaper, I'm liable to find him. Dimwittie found him, before misguided park policies interfered. Now the idiot will just have to make another appointment, and next time the Reaper will be some pissed for being stood up.


I don't know you Percy. Have you spent any time hiking in the mountains? It seems like you haven't from your post.

The weather is very changeable in the mountains. Storms can blow in with little or no notice. The margin or error can be very slim in the winter. A fall in a creek, a slip on some ice, is all that is necessary to put someone in dire straits in a hurry.

To generalize without knowing the facts or the individual is just plain ignorant.

Kerosene
12-23-2004, 12:48
Anyone know how that Ignore Button works?Click on the poster's handle and select "View Public Profile". A window will pop up and near the middle of the screen is an option to "Add [handle] to Your Ignore List". I've put several trolls and self-righteous posters on my list, helping me to enjoy WhiteBlaze just a little more.

c.coyle
12-23-2004, 12:51
Percy, we know you're trolling, but there's no need to refer to this guy as "Dimwittie".

Miss Janet
12-23-2004, 15:23
The past several days have shown the huge range of weather conditions that the south can throw at you in the winter. We were cooking out on the grill in T shirts about 10 days ago... since then we have had it all! Snowstorms, Icestorms, sub zero temps, high winds... and then last night we were again at above 50 when we were out Christmas shopping.

The SoBo hikers that have been in this area are being very careful and cautious but you can never plan for all of the variables. Be careful and over prepared to go out there in the winter. Huffing a sleeping bag and a tarp or tent on a day hike may seem like overkill... until you need it to survive after an injury or a freak storm. Make sure someone knows where you are going and what your plans are.

Tractor
12-23-2004, 15:34
1) I was just talking with my mom & dad and mentioned this story about the rescue. My dad reminded me about his cousin who died attempting a helicopter rescue in or near the Smokies several years ago. We doubt he had any clue, or cared a ratz azz, as to why the folks got in the predicament they were in. It was part of his job, a job he chose to do.

2) I challenge each of you, who so quickly slammed Mr. Dinwiddie and/or those who went to help him, to sit back (if u haven't already) and think about what you might post the next time some similar event pops up for review. You and I have the right to individual opinion and the right to post such. My opinion, right this minute, is I wish someone would kick a couple of you in the :-? when you least expect it..... and I've deserved such a kick myself from time to time.

Puck
12-23-2004, 16:01
The other poster indicated that they thought that makind judgements about another hiker's behavior WRT safety on the Trail was inappropriate. Leaving aside the fact that here on WB members do exactly that all the time, I gave commonly encountered counterexamples to show that that is an indefensible approach to take in life -- or on the Trail.

I have not yet formed an opinion about this hiker and his misfortunes BC I do not yet have enough information. I understand where Percival is coming from; certainly, tax dollars don't need to be used in quantity to assist innumerable fools in trouble of their own making. Neither should someone always turn their back on another hiker who is in serious trouble, although that would be their right. IMO, voluntary assistance to those in trouble would be the way to go.

Weary probably has the best post on this thread so far about this event, I'd say.
You sir are conflicted...you deliver a tirade about judgement, stating everyone does it. Then in your next breath you say you have not formed an opinion because you don't have enough information. The posters who warned about making rash judgements based there words on the fact that no details were known. Making judgements without information is the hallmark of an idiot.

Bloodroot
12-23-2004, 16:41
I have not yet formed an opinion about this hiker and his misfortunes BC I do not yet have enough information. I understand where Percival is coming from; certainly, tax dollars don't need to be used in quantity to assist innumerable fools in trouble of their own making. Neither should someone always turn their back on another hiker who is in serious trouble, although that would be their right. IMO, voluntary assistance to those in trouble would be the way to go.
Do what!? How do you figure? So you feel there shouldn't be any fire departments, police, homeless shelters, etc...etc? Certainly these organizations are funded by the so called tax dollars to assist those is need.

Then, you turn around and contradict the previous statement with "Neither should someone turn their back on another hiker who is in serious trouble."

What, in your honest opinion, is this voluntary assistance to those in need? A hiker who walks by and catches a glimpse of someone on the ground freezing to death and thinks, "Now should I keep on going or should I actually delay my hike to help someone? Hmmmm...let me see?

You can't be serious.

Ridge
12-23-2004, 16:56
was it a down or synthetic. I read he was in a wet bag in minus temps. Also, I would like to know what kind of cell phone will work with those kind of temps. My battery in mine gets zapped in no time when temps or that low. Usually want last the night unless I keep it in a very warm place. Experienced winter hikers learn to keep the most important and life saving piece of equipment they have
DRY..the Sleeping Bag., and do so at all cost. I am glad he has survived.

lostjohn
12-23-2004, 18:03
Click on the poster's handle and select "View Public Profile". A window will pop up and near the middle of the screen is an option to "Add [handle] to Your Ignore List". I've put several trolls and self-righteous posters on my list, helping me to enjoy WhiteBlaze just a little more.
Thanks for the info on how to ignore some folks. It is that or give up on White Blaze!

Merry Christmas

minnesotasmith
12-24-2004, 02:00
"So you feel there shouldn't be any fire departments, police, homeless shelters, etc...etc? Certainly these organizations are funded by the so called tax dollars to assist those is need."

No, I don't think there should be tax-funded fire departments or tax-funded homeless shelters. Fire departments should be private businesses, whose services any property owner should be free to subscribe to -- or not, with obvious possible consequences. Any homeless shelters that exist should be funded solely by voluntary contributions.

Police departments are a different kettle of fish; as they involve the initiation of force (morally usable basically only to protect citizens from others initiating force, or to correct fraud), they must exist, and they must be part of government, which should have a monopoly on its initiation.

As far as charity/welfare work goes, it's IMO like seeing a hiker in distress: need does not constitute a claim between strangers. I would likely help out a stranger in trouble I saw on the Trail, under several conditions. (No, the conditions aren't repayment of any kind.) One, an adult that had put themselves in harm's way through blatantly obvious great stupidity, like a novice BASE jumper whose first jump went horribly wrong, or a hiker with cotton-T-shirt-and-shorts-on-Katahdin-in-December would likely elicit considerably less sympathy from me than a child in trouble, or a responsible adult who just had terrribly bad luck that day. Too, if the degree of risk to my own life is high, that also would tend to put a damper on my inclination to help. In the Boy Scouts Lifesaving (water safety) merit badge training, it's hammered into you NOT to put your own life at risk while saving another. Many a single drowning victim's plight has inadvertently lured in multiple other would-be rescuers to their deaths.

Bloodroot
12-24-2004, 08:35
As far as charity/welfare work goes, it's IMO like seeing a hiker in distress: need does not constitute a claim between strangers.
So weighing the options here. Would you first interogate the hiker in distress to decipher whether it was legit enough for you to assist? Man, wouldn't you feel bad if you ruined your hike saving someone and come to find out the person you saved lost their matches? Bummer.


I would likely help out a stranger in trouble I saw on the Trail, under several conditions. (No, the conditions aren't repayment of any kind.)For some reason I feel like you would expect repayment for your time.
One, an adult that had put themselves in harm's way through blatantly obvious great stupidity, like a novice BASE jumper whose first jump went horribly wrong, or a hiker with cotton-T-shirt-and-shorts-on-Katahdin-in-December would likely elicit considerably less sympathy from me than a child in trouble, or a responsible adult who just had terrribly bad luck that day.Sure, a child in trouble would hold more ground for helping. I think the reasons are obvious. All the time on the news you hear of people being rescued from silly, ignorant mistakes on their part. Over here I have witnessed countless times where Iraqi people have died from driving on the wrong side of road. Obviously they have no traffic laws here or even an understanding of what the uniform way of motoring is. However, to us traffic-law obiding citizens this is an act of suicide and stupidity. Regardless of the situation, *****t happens sometimes MS without fully understanding why. I would never allow someone to die from my negligence to help, whether it was stupid or not.


Too, if the degree of risk to my own life is high, that also would tend to put a damper on my inclination to help. In the Boy Scouts Lifesaving (water safety) merit badge training, it's hammered into you NOT to put your own life at risk while saving another. Many a single drowning victim's plight has inadvertently lured in multiple other would-be rescuers to their deaths.Sure MS. No is asking you to jump in Class 5 rapids to save anyone.

weary
12-24-2004, 10:21
No, I don't think there should be tax-funded fire departments or tax-funded homeless shelters. Fire departments should be private businesses, whose services any property owner should be free to subscribe to -- or not, with obvious possible consequences. .
Some services like fire departments and long distance trails -- are provided by government for reasons of efficiency.

Private fire departments in small towns would quickly become monopolies and in big cities a dangerous and inefficient nuicance. Plus in most small towns the fire department is made up mostly of volunteers. It strikes me as silly to dismantle an inexpensive system that works, in the interest of furthering a theoretical belief in free enterprise.

Not that I'm against free enterprise. Actually, it has some appealing aspects so appealing that I find it puzzling that no community that I know of has ever tried it.

But since only governments have the power of eminent domain, only governments can acquire the land needed for long distance trails. The best us private groups can do is to pick up the occasional piece of valuable hiking terrain as it comes on to the market.

There's a rare chance to do that in Maine at the moment, thanks to the decision of the multinational conglomerates to abandon their Maine operations. That's why we created the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust. Now if we could only get free enterprise believers like MinnesotaS to contribute. It's easy to get details just open: www.matlt.org

Weary

Kerosene
12-24-2004, 11:50
Okay, if you haven't noticed we're now off-topic from the start of this thread.

Valmet
12-24-2004, 12:59
Anyone regardless of their age or ability can get hurt on a trail. All it takes is one mistep. I do think it is not wise to hike in snow alone. I don't condem him but I think it was reckless. I'm glad he did not die but he did come close. The Backcountry can be brutal and anyone going into it should be aware of that and be prepared.

Theo
12-24-2004, 13:43
Anyone that judges this person before they have heard the whole story, needs the rescuing. I hope he's OK and back doing what he loves to do soon. At 62 he's got my respect.

weary
12-24-2004, 15:03
Okay, if you haven't noticed we're now off-topic from the start of this thread.
That is the nature of human communications. One thing just leads to another. I know, it's a damn nuicance. But one can't easily change the nature of humans as near as I can tell.

Weary

minnesotasmith
12-24-2004, 15:07
"Some services like fire departments and long distance trails -- are provided by government for reasons of efficiency."

Efficiency is not the only good in the universe. If it were, we'd all drive or fly the length of the AT in hours or a couple of days, instead of taking months to walk it as through-hikers. I happen to think that Constitutionality, freedom, and (an act being) moral are all generally more important than simple efficiency, whose worship leads to dictatorship. Remember how Mussolini's enslavement of Italy was excused by "he made the trains run on time"? The Nazi death camps and Soviet slave labor camps were really efficient at what they did, too, but that hardly justifies their existence.

Anyway, the old saying about government still hold true IMO, that it can do only two things efficiently; make war (including on its own citizens), and inflate the currency. Most endeavors are done more efficiently by the private sector; how else would you explain UPS/FedEx/etc. having taken over 90% of the U.S. Snail's package business away from them?

=================================================

As far as helping hikers in distress: no, I wouldn't put one in obvious great trouble and distress through a lengthy interrogation before I would do squat for one. I referred above to BLATANTLY obvious great stupidity. Examples would be Flyin' Brian refusing to carry sufficient warm clothing day after day on the Trail during cooler months (knowing perfectly well from his great experience what conditions would be like at night), expecting to repeatedly borrow clothing and bedding at night from fellow (better-prepared) hikers in the shelters who were willing to hump what supplies it took to be safe. I'd say giving Brian L.L. Bean's or REI's web address is all the charity appropriate then.

Other members here have complained about ultra-light hikers repeatedly borrowing their maps and whatnot, refusing to spend the money to buy and then carry their own. I definitely see how their complaint has legitimacy.

Likewise, if I encountered that hiker that brought his entire family along as roadside "support" and was expecting to panhandle his entire way to Maine, here's what I think I'd do: if he were out of food a ways from a road crossing or town, I might give him enough food to head towards the nearest one, even if it was in the reverse direction, but that would be the extent of my food charity towards him, forever. If he told me he was going to continue onward towards the more distant (but forward direction) next resupply point, I'd say he sounded to me like a Darwin Award candidate, and head on my way with a clear conscience.

If I saw a BASE jumper fallen in amongst a bunch of rock outcrops halfway-down a tall near-vertical cliff, I'd shake my head, think "turtle on the highway", and head on. Sure, I'd pass the word about his plight to others, and at the next town, but putting my life at any risk for someone who didn't highly value their own life, strikes me as an immoral use of my own.

Before all this gov't-mandated tax-fed welfare immoral B.S., which makes no distinction between those who cause (and continue to knowingly cause) their problems and those who don't, it was well understood by those inclined to offer charity that there were differences in the unfortunate. Those who were able-bodied but refused to work and stay off drugs or booze (and out of jail) rightly were seen differently than abandoned or orphaned young children, the severely handicapped, and the like. I propose that hikers in extremis have the same degree of judgement applied to them. No, someone in immediate need of aid to prevent death doesn't neccessarily get passed up by someone who could aid them without risking their own life or even minor expense. Rather, that some hiker knowingly continuing on into trouble (even after being warned) does not get to mandate the kindness of strangers to save them from the just results of their flawed approach to the Trail, anymore than they would in life.

skeeterfeeder
12-24-2004, 15:56
Has anyone else noticed that certain (im)posters tend to hijack every post and eventually draw the focus to their own, lonely existances; via some quasi- intellectual garbage, or just plain venom. I wish there was an electronic cat hole for some of this stuff.

Best wishes and God's speed to the gentleman that was rescued AND to his rescuers.

minnesotasmith
12-24-2004, 16:22
The psychoanalysis of fellow members you just did is first cousin to flaming, and is definitely OT. I for one would appreciate it if you would stick to at least subjects related to when and whether to help, as I did.

c.coyle
12-24-2004, 17:17
Keeping wits after fall helped hiker stay alive (12/24/04) (http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_3422585,00.html)

orangebug
12-24-2004, 17:31
Knoxville News wouldn't allow me to register and make a password. Would you cut and paste the important passages, please?

Frosty
12-24-2004, 17:56
The psychoanalysis of fellow members you just did is first cousin to flaming, and is definitely OT. I for one would appreciate it if you would stick to at least subjects related to when and whether to help, as I did.

Like these prior comments for yours from this thread?:



The closest societies have ever come to operating that way are communist countries (and a very few shortlived religious groups), and even they had to back down from that way of operating in short order, it being so impossible for human nature, or even just living at all.


I don't think there should be tax-funded fire departments or tax-funded homeless shelters. Fire departments should be private businesses, whose services any property owner should be free to subscribe to -- or not, with obvious possible consequences. Any homeless shelters that exist should be funded solely by voluntary contributions. .


Police departments are a different kettle of fish; as they involve the initiation of force (morally usable basically only to protect citizens from others initiating force, or to correct fraud), they must exist, and they must be part of government, which should have a monopoly on its initiation.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it does seem just a wee bit as though a thread on a hiker needing rescue has been hikacked and turned into a political forum, and maybe skeeterfeeder has a point.

minnesotasmith
12-24-2004, 18:21
I answered questions that were put to me (as a courteous forum member generally should IMO), and also gave what I considered to be related examples from ordinary life to show through metaphor why I take the positions that I do WRT how and when I will assist other hikers in trouble. I believe that a hiker being in trouble is the topic of this thread, NOT "pop" psychological flaming of nonsocialist/non-PC members.

Stix
12-24-2004, 18:28
Yea! You tell’em Smokygirl. I find it quite amazing and extremely amusing when arm chair Discovery Channel wannabees start preaching the gospel. Hey, I could be wrong. “Eddie Bauer Day Hikers”?



:bse

weary
12-24-2004, 18:38
Knoxville News wouldn't allow me to register and make a password. Would you cut and paste the important passages, please?
It was one of the more irritating newspaper sites. But I think the story is as follows:


J. MILES CARY
NEWS SENTINEL

David Dinwiddie, right, who fell and was stranded for four days while hiking in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, tells about his ordeal Thursday while convalescing at the University of Tennessee Medical Center. At left is his friend Richard Butcher.

J. MILES CARY
NEWS SENTINEL

David Dinwiddie shows his frostbitten fingers, some of which doctors have said may have to be amputated. Dinwiddie survived a fourday ordeal after falling and hurting himself while hiking in the Smokies.


PRINT THIS STORY | E-MAIL THIS STORY

Keeping wits after fall helped hiker stay alive
Man who took shelter in sleeping bag kept life, but may lose fingers

By SCOTT BARKER, [email protected]
December 24, 2004

The snow was knee-deep on Inadu Knob.

Temperatures dropped below zero on the mountain, making David Dinwiddie's hands so stiff he couldn't prepare any food. For days snow was his sustenance and his only shelter was a down sleeping bag.

As the hours passed, he prayed that someone — anyone — would find him as he lay in the middle of the Appalachian Trail about 6,000 feet above sea level in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.

Dinwiddie's prayers were answered Tuesday evening when three hikers stumbled into the makeshift campground he'd fashioned after falling on the trail on Sunday.

Frostbitten, hypothermic and a little disoriented, Dinwiddie had already spent two nights in the rugged mountains south of Cosby on the North Carolina border. His sleeping bag very nearly served as a burial shroud.

Seated in a wheelchair Thursday morning in an 11th-floor lounge at the University of Tennessee Medical Center, Dinwiddie recounted his harrowing backcountry experience.

"I knew I was going to get out," the 62-year-old veteran backpacker said less than 14 hours after being rescued by park rangers. "I just didn't know when."

His fingers were black and swollen from frostbite, his toes a dishwater gray. His speech was thick, and he sometimes had difficulty understanding questions. At his side sat Richard Butcher, who had accompanied Dinwiddie on many previous hikes.

"He's a survivor," Butcher said. "He's tough."

Dinwiddie's ordeal began on Sunday, when he hiked up the steep, 4.6-mile Snake Den Ridge Trail. His destination was the Tricorner Knob shelter, nearly 4 miles farther down the Appalachian Trail. He had planned to meet some friends from Florida at the shelter and trek with them to shelters at Cosby Knob and Davenport Gap.

Dinwiddie turned onto the Appalachian Trail. As he slogged through the 18-inch-deep snow and freezing wind, he lost his footing.

"I stepped on the trail and it gave way on me," he said.

Dinwiddie tumbled down and found himself entangled in branches. After more than an hour of struggling to free himself, Dinwiddie took off his gloves so he could remove his backpack. By the time he wriggled out, his hands were frozen.

Dinwiddie decided not to risk hiking out. After all, he was only a short distance from his destination, where friends presumably were waiting on him. He crawled into his sleeping bag to warm up. Because he'd planned to stay in shelters, he didn't pack a tent.

Unbeknownst to Dinwiddie, his Florida friends had cut short their trip because of the snow and swirling winds in the high Smokies. He was alone on the mountain.

The temperature plunged. On Mount LeConte, 12 miles away as the raven flies from Dinwiddie's perch and less than 300 feet higher in elevation, the thermometer read 11 degrees below zero on Monday.

Dinwiddie stared up at the stars, which hung like shards of shaved ice in the clear mountain skies.

"I just looked at 'em and looked at 'em till it turned daylight again," Dinwiddie said.

He knew he couldn't fall asleep. When a person suffers from hypothermia, sleep is little more than the first phase of death.

"I didn't panic," Dinwiddie said. "I didn't get scared. I talked myself into not going to sleep."

An Operation Desert Storm veteran, Dinwiddie said his military training had taught him how to stay awake for long periods of time. He needed that training as the hours stretched into days.

Dinwiddie carried plenty of food, but his frozen fingers couldn't open the packaging. His camping stove was useless.

Instead, he would form snowballs, put them into his mouth and let them melt so he could stay hydrated. The only solids he consumed were evergreen needles and dirt embedded in the snow. Preparing the snowballs further exposed his already damaged fingers.

On Tuesday morning, with temperatures warming into the 20s, he dug out his cell phone and managed to call a Sevier County 911 operator, who relayed the call to the National Park Service switchboard.

The call was garbled. The 911 system, the Park Service and the phone company determined he was in the northeastern portion of the park, but couldn't pinpoint the location.

That evening, a trio of hikers came upon Dinwiddie's sleeping bag in the darkness. They hustled down the mountain and notified park personnel.

Three rangers — Pat Patten, Gene Wesloh and Joe Pond — headed for the trailhead about 5:30 a.m. on Wednesday. Four hours later, they were at Dinwiddie's side. Pond, who's also a medic, assessed Dinwiddie's condition. His body temperature had plunged to 94 degrees.

The rangers hustled Dinwiddie out of his soggy sleeping bag and into a hastily erected tent. After changing him into some dry clothes, they made him drink hot chocolate, both for sustenance and to raise his core temperature.

Chief Ranger Jim Northup said Dinwiddie would have died had he not kept his wits about him after his fall.

"He certainly did the right thing by getting into the sleeping bag," Northup said.

More than two dozen people joined in the rescue effort. The state park system sent eight rangers to augment the National Park Service rescue team. A group arrived at the tent with a litter.

Fighting a ferocious storm, the rescuers placed Dinwiddie onto the litter and dragged him down the trail.

"We were actually able to slide him on the snow to the top of the Snake Den Ridge trail on Maddron Bald," Northup said.

When the snow cover petered out, the rangers transferred Dinwiddie to a more nimble litter outfitted with a wheel and brakes.

Bob Fulcher, manager of the Cumberland Trail State Park, was a member of the fourth and final team that went up the mountain late Wednesday afternoon to help bring Dinwiddie down in the teeth of the storm.

"It was incredible weather — winds gusting to 60 miles an hour, with sleet, mist and snow flying sideways, depending on the elevation," Fulcher said.

"He would groan in pain and let you know he was hurt," Fulcher continued. "This guy had been lying in the snow for three days. The fact that he was partially lucid is amazing."

The rangers got Dinwiddie down about 9:30 p.m. as wind and rain lashed the mountaintops. On Cove Mountain, the Park Service recorded the highest wind speeds ever in the Smokies — 110 mph.

Dinwiddie said he would have died had he remained on the mountain. As it is, he might emerge from the hospital maimed. Doctors have told him he may lose some of his fingers.

Holding his blackened, trembling hands before him, Dinwiddie said, "I can't move any of these fingers at all."

A planned hike to Spence Field next week, a New Year's ritual for Dinwiddie, will have to be cancelled for only the second time in 37 years. But Dinwiddie said he would return to the mountains as soon as he recovers. The Smokies are in his blood.

His father, the late Paul Dinwiddie, hiked Mount LeConte 750 times between his 65th birthday and his death in 1995 at age 80. Like his father, Dinwiddie spends much of his time in the mountains and has helped his share of hikers in trouble.

"I've helped a lot of people out of them mountains," he said. "I didn't think I'd be one of them someday."


Scott Barker may be reached at 865-342-6309. Staff writer Morgan Simmons contributed to this story.

Copyright 2004, Knoxville News Sentinel Co.
Click for permission

minnesotasmith
12-24-2004, 20:28
Did anyone else catch this?

"Because he'd planned to stay in shelters, he didn't pack a tent." [in winter]

Lobo
12-24-2004, 20:47
I usually post photos instead of words, but after reading the above 77 posts I think there are two fellows here that would be excellent hiking partners.

c.coyle
12-25-2004, 11:12
Knoxville News wouldn't allow me to register and make a password. Would you cut and paste the important passages, please?

It's pretty long. Some excerpts:

"Dinwiddie's ordeal began on Sunday, when he hiked up the steep, 4.6-mile Snake Den Ridge Trail. His destination was the Tricorner Knob shelter, nearly 4 miles farther down the Appalachian Trail. He had planned to meet some friends from Florida at the shelter and trek with them to shelters at Cosby Knob and Davenport Gap.

Dinwiddie turned onto the Appalachian Trail. As he slogged through the 18-inch-deep snow and freezing wind, he lost his footing.

'I stepped on the trail and it gave way on me,' he said.

Dinwiddie tumbled down and found himself entangled in branches. After more than an hour of struggling to free himself, Dinwiddie took off his gloves so he could remove his backpack. By the time he wriggled out, his hands were frozen.

Dinwiddie decided not to risk hiking out. After all, he was only a short distance from his destination, where friends presumably were waiting on him. He crawled into his sleeping bag to warm up. Because he'd planned to stay in shelters, he didn't pack a tent.

Unbeknownst to Dinwiddie, his Florida friends had cut short their trip because of the snow and swirling winds in the high Smokies. He was alone on the mountain."

...

"Dinwiddie carried plenty of food, but his frozen fingers couldn't open the packaging. His camping stove was useless.

Instead, he would form snowballs, put them into his mouth and let them melt so he could stay hydrated. The only solids he consumed were evergreen needles and dirt embedded in the snow. Preparing the snowballs further exposed his already damaged fingers."

SGT Rock
12-25-2004, 11:39
Well since it is illegal to camp out of the Shelters instead of designated areas, I have thought about not carrrying a shelter myself in the Smokies. So far I still carry my shelter, but even my hammock wouldn't have given me good shelter in such conditions. If his hands were frozen that bad even a tent may not have been able to since most likely he couldn't set it up. Probably a tarp or a poncho would have been all he could have managed anyway. I have seen pictures of his hands here on local TV, he got pretty screwed up on that mountain. Experience and preperation mean a lot, but **** happens to every one.

orangebug
12-25-2004, 11:51
I'm trying to figure out how he could have dealt with a tent or tarp with those winds, the snow depth and the state of his hands. The shelter was his best hope.

His story should give one caution about why you do not eat snow to rehydrate. I suspect that his hypothermia and thirst drove him to extreme measures. He is lucky to have survived, even with a few amputations.

I wonder where he fell. I recall a 50 yard segment of knife edge between Tricorner Knob and Cosby Knob Shelters. I'd have hated to fall there. I was worried about falling through the drifts on the downhill side of the trail, but fatigued from postholing on the uphill side back in March 2001. I can see how his fall started a sequence of bad events.

The cell phone 911 call sounds almost miraculous. Cold weather on the batteries, poor ability to dial, distance from any cell and other factors could have kept that from working. At least no one has blamed the man for depending on his cell phone for a rescue.

Ridge
12-25-2004, 12:11
http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_3422585,00.html

This is a good article about a sucessfull rescue, he was lucky some other hikers found him and reported his location. I have a lot of questions about several aspects of his hike, about his friends he was to meet, etc. But, I'll not speculate or make any observations, as for the pictures from the above article, I will say the frostbitten fingers on this guy look wicked.

MOWGLI
12-25-2004, 12:14
Well since it is illegal to camp out of the Shelters instead of designated areas, I have thought about not carrrying a shelter myself in the Smokies.

The last time I backpacked in GSMNP (August '04) the Ranger who arranged our reservations specifically told me not to take a tent. Granted, that was summer hiking as opposed to winter. The Ranger told me, "camping is not permitted at the shelter, so you won't need your tent." I asked him a second time, and he reiterated that I should leave my tent home.

shades of blue
12-25-2004, 12:27
I understand why the ranger said that...but I think that is poor advice. Shelter and your sleeping bag are your final defense against hypothermia. Hypothermia can happen anytime of the year. If you get hurt away from a shelter, what else can you do? I think the ranger may have been more interested in keeping people from stealth camping instead of possible emergencies. Bad advice IMOH.

SGT Rock
12-25-2004, 12:49
I also think it is a bad idea not to take a shelter, even if you plan on camping from shelter to shelter. I have contemplating getting a 10x12 sil-nylon tarp for back up just in case while in the Smokies. I still carry my hammock for now, and I bet if an emergency happened any good ranger would be glad you had a shelter instead of mad that you camped "illegally". Maybe I ought to get a ranger job when I retire...

MOWGLI
12-25-2004, 13:06
Well, I won't disagree that the advice wasn't the best. For me in August, I had just purchased a new Go-Lite pack, and not being a liteweight weenie, I didn't have a tent that would fit in my new pack, so I took the advice, and left my clip flashlite at home on that trip. I was able to pull off 40 miles in 48 hours packing lite (Clingmans to Davenport Gap). Not half bad for a fat guy.

On my backpacking trips last week, and starting again tomorrow, I'll be toting my Dana Design Glacier pack, with my tent and a thermarest guidelite AND a 3/4 ridgerest. That's for an Alabama hike that is seldom above 2000'.

Valmet
12-25-2004, 13:09
About 20 years ago I was going through the GSMNP end to end with a couple of friends, it rained the whole week we were there. This was around Veterans week and the temps were in the low 50's during the day. On the third day out one person got wet and by afternoon was shivering pretty bad. We did have a tent. We were about 5 miles from the next shelter but deceided to pop up the tent and stay there for the night. We did not camp on the trail, did not start a fire, etc. The next day a Ranger came by when we were finishing packing up and gave us a ticket for camping in a non-designated area. He would not listen about the fact we had some one that we considered was about to go into hypothermia. He said not his problem. We went to the park supertendent when we got out and explained what we did. He said we did the right thing and dropped the ticket. I always carry a tent, summer or winter even if I plan to stay at a shelter. Better safe than sorry.

Ridge
12-25-2004, 13:33
I always carry a tent, summer or winter even if I plan to stay at a shelter. Better safe than sorry.
The FIRST and most important thing to have is your sleeping bag, The SECOND is shelter. Now, I will say both a sleeping bag and tent are a form of shelter( actually making the general term shelter the most important) and in winter travel it would be wise to have both, or at least a bivy type system. I always carry a one person tent, even though it is a 3 season one, in the GSMNP or anywhere, esp during winter months. It is almost suicidal to do otherwise. No NPS person in their right mind will ever sight you for doing this. Its equal to a first aid kit and better than a cell phone to call the NPS of help.

SGT Rock
12-25-2004, 13:43
Cell phone coverage stinks where I live, I would guess it is even worse up there anyway.

Jack Tarlin
12-25-2004, 14:17
Ridge is absolutely right, especially as regards cell phones. If you read the story of Dimwiddie's rescue, you'll see that he was NOT able to use his phone to tell folks exactly where he was.

Cell phones MIGHT help you in an emergency. They might not. The can break, malfunction, get wet, have batteries go dead. Or, you simply might find yourself in a location where they don't work period.

There is no replacement for carrying the correct emergency equipment and gear. At ALL times, this means carrying such things as maps, food & water, a firestarter of some sort, a flashlight with extra batteries, foul-weather clothes, a knife. In the winter, it means carrying much more, such as extra dry clothes and some sort of shelter.

I delighted this guy is OK, and I wish him a speedy recovery. But fact is, he's very lucky to be alive.

Drala Hiker
12-25-2004, 14:27
I'm visiting my family in Maryville, TN. We've been awaiting more details on David D.s hike (BTW Sgt. Rock, when did you move from LA to E TN? I only check this post occassionally, didn't realize you'd moved). Thank the heavens that he was found and survived, battered though he was. And great thanks to the SAR teams that spent many, many hours on the mountain in horrendous conditions to evacuate him (BTW, Treemont Institute is hosting a week long Wilderness First Responder class starting Jan. 7).

Last night I talked with a woman in her 60s who is a volunteer at LeConte Lodge. She hikes up there several times per month when weather allows. There are many details yet to be known in regards to his predicament. Dorothy pointed out a few: what happened to his gloves? Why no shelter such as bivy sack or tarp (I agree with you Sgt. Rock, always carry shelter in winter)? What happened to his water bottles, why weren't they in his sleeping bag with him? Why wasn't he using his pack as a bivy over the bottom of his bag? Why did he not register a backcountry permit at the trailhead, as required by GSMNP for overnights? Did the FL friends he was to meet have his hike plan? Did they try to contact anyone to see if David had bailed on the trip once they reached their car? Did David leave his hike plan with someone (such as his brother, interviewed in an article in Wednesday's paper). As I said, there is a LOT of missing information on this event, and no reasonable conclusions can be made until those details are known.

Of course hypothermia will degrade one's thinking ability, bringing up the point that he must have been incapaciated for some period of time - a bump on the head? - before he took action, and then the action he took overlooked some rather obvious details.

Sometimes vast experience leads to over-confidence, short cuts are taken, details are missed, and accidents happen. That is why pilots are required to run down a pre-flight check list before take-off (a pilot was in the same conversation the LeConte volunteer and myself). That is why SCUBA divers use a similar system. The unforeseen is always what catches you before you know it. That's why it's so important to be prepared for the possibilities. I wish David D. a swift recovery.

grrickar
12-25-2004, 14:54
One other thing - the article said his stove was 'useless'. Why was that the case? Even in high winds I would think that he could have dug a pit in the snow and kept it lit. Did anyone catch what type of stove is was?

SGT Rock
12-25-2004, 15:40
His stove was most likely useless because of the conditions of his hands. The pictures I saw of him his hands were very F***ED. Anyone with any sort of stove would have been in the same predicament because of that.

Drala Hiker, I now live in east TN with a Maryville address. My house is actually closer to Waland than MAryville out in the Rocky Branch/Laws Chapel area.

weary
12-25-2004, 16:13
....Sometimes vast experience leads to over-confidence, short cuts are taken, details are missed, and accidents happen. That is why pilots are required to run down a pre-flight check list before take-off (a pilot was in the same conversation the LeConte volunteer and myself). That is why SCUBA divers use a similar system. The unforeseen is always what catches you before you know it. That's why it's so important to be prepared for the possibilities. ....
Absolutely true. I backpacked every winter in Maine for 30 years. My gear improved over the decades, but I recognize that what happened on my first trip -- minus 32 F -- and the loss of expected shelter was no problem in 1970. It might have been had similar conditions prevailed in 2000, as I grew complacent.

Even the most skilled of us tend to grow careless with experience. Some deadly accidents occur as a result of sheer stupidity. Others occur as a result of confidence born of years of good luck.

Weary

Rocks 'n Roots
12-26-2004, 15:40
I'm often amazed by the general lack of obvious awareness by the Trail Community. Frankly, it makes Trail members look dumb.




I know cell phones on the trail are a controversial topic, but in this case it very well could have saved this man's life.<!-- / message -->

Did it ever strike any of the profound thinkers in here who generally present themselves as the "Trail Community" that this man probably over-extended himself because he used the cell phone as a life saver device and pushed too far because of it? Doesn't seem too difficult to realize.

Unfortunately, mankind is stuck in his primitive mode of thinking and doesn't like to admit things that make him look bad or spoil his desired conceptions. This holds true for AT people as well unfortunately.


The man probably pushed too far because he unconsciously gave himself more rope because of the cell phone. This also happened in the Whites a few years ago with fatal results. The discussion of this from the so-called "Trail Community" was nil (except of course harsh criticism of the messenger).

"Politeness" is no replacement for honest, intelligent admission...

Stix
12-26-2004, 15:41
On a Sunday evening Back in September, I called my boss from Tri-Corner Shelter and told him I wouldn’t be able to make it in on Monday.

Reception wasn’t too bad. "Verizon Wireless"<O:p</O:p

:jump

Bloodroot
12-26-2004, 16:02
I'm often amazed by the general lack of obvious awareness by the Trail Community. Frankly, it makes Trail members look dumb.





Did it ever strike any of the profound thinkers in here who generally present themselves as the "Trail Community" that this man probably over-extended himself because he used the cell phone as a life saver device and pushed too far because of it? Doesn't seem too difficult to realize.

Unfortunately, mankind is stuck in his primitive mode of thinking and doesn't like to admit things that make him look bad or spoil his desired conceptions. This holds true for AT people as well unfortunately.


The man probably pushed too far because he unconsciously gave himself more rope because of the cell phone. This also happened in the Whites a few years ago with fatal results. The discussion of this from the so-called "Trail Community" was nil (except of course harsh criticism of the messenger).

"Politeness" is no replacement for honest, intelligent admission...
No way! I'm sure "some" if "any" have used a cell phone as a crutch. I would like to think other than keeping in touch with others (if that's your thing), that it was used a last resort emergency device. This post is nothing more than a assumption.

neo
12-26-2004, 16:53
my brother hiked to top of mount laconte in early march 1999,it was 60 degrees

when he drove thru maryville,had a 40 degree walmart sleeping bag,my old kelty pack,he fell in a creek on the way up,he hiked in knee deep snow,it was almost dark when he made it to the top,he only had one thought in his mind,he was going to die if he did not make it to the shelter,temp was 5 degrees when he got to the shelter,he changed clothes,his pants were frozen solid,then he fired up his stove,warm his hands,then melted snow and made coffee and something to eat,he made it back with all his fingers and toes,we grew up poor,so survival has always been in our blood.:sun neo

Drala Hiker
12-26-2004, 17:29
Considering that David D. is a very experienced Smokies hiker, it would be a bit of a stretch to think he took his cell phone expecting to use it. I happen to take my cell phone with me on hikes, simply because I don't want to leave it in the car in case of trailhead vandalism. I've never even turned my phone on when I'm in the woods.

There have been no further articles on David D.'s situation in the Knoxville or Maryville papers over the weekend, that I could find. Perhaps Monday there will be an updated report on his condition.

Jack Tarlin
12-26-2004, 17:43
Rocks:

You cited a recent incident in the White Mountains in which over-reliance on a cell phone resulted in a fatality.

Please provide names, dates, details.

orangebug
12-26-2004, 20:56
RnR is channeling again.

The prior incident was a retired minister who did a flip flop, fell and apparently was impaired and unable to be cajoled into his sleeping bag or other resuscitative measures before he died. A call was made on cell phone that did not lead to rescue or change in that sad outcome. This was thoroughly discussed on AT-L and the AMC's sites, with similar channeling of the deceased motivations and use of the evil cell phone.

Unfortunately, we will now here how MacKaye, the Creator of All Things Good, would have never planted cell phone towers next to his lumber mills and work camps. Only the unclean would stoop to use a cell phone, even in emergency situations.

SGT Rock
12-26-2004, 21:20
So moral of the story - the cell phone won't save you as a real safety item. To plan it as a safety item is to shortcut your way around good wilderness knowledge and is planning to failure.

weary
12-26-2004, 21:37
RnR is channeling again. .
These would be more interesting discussions if we would either discuss what others say -- or, perhaps, simply ignore what others say. Accusing people with contrary opinions of "channeling" or using a OUIJA Board serves no purpose other than revealing the accuser as being unable to verbalize legitimate responses.

One doesn't need mystical means to have an opinion about what Mackaye or most other historical figures may have believed about an issue. This is especially true of Mackaye who lived for 90 + years and left hundreds of pages of carefully reasoned analysis, a depth of correspondence, and many, many speeches.

No one can know for certain the private thoughts of others. But one can certainly make a judgment based on the historical record, without "channeling" or resorting to magic.

Weary

weary
12-26-2004, 22:00
RnR is channeling again.

The prior incident was a retired minister who did a flip flop, fell and apparently was impaired and unable to be cajoled into his sleeping bag or other resuscitative measures before he died. A call was made on cell phone that did not lead to rescue or change in that sad outcome. This was thoroughly discussed on AT-L and the AMC's sites, with similar channeling of the deceased motivations and use of the evil cell phone.

Unfortunately, we will now here how MacKaye, the Creator of All Things Good, would have never planted cell phone towers next to his lumber mills and work camps. Only the unclean would stoop to use a cell phone, even in emergency situations.
Obviously, a cell phone from time to time will save lives. But some of us also go into the woods not to maximize our safety, but to expose ourselves to primitive challenges. We deliberately do not carry the crutch of a cell phone and resent it when others damage our sense of wildness by publicly doing so.

This is not a matter of being clean or unclean, OB. It is a deliberate decision designed to maximize our outdoor experiences. If our aim were maximum safety, there are many things society could do. We could pave all the trails, install escalators on steep slopes, top every mountain with a cellular transmitting tower, require medical and psychiatric examinations before venturing out, require cell phone use....

A few of us, at least, simply prefer to keep wild places wild and recognize that carrying the means of instance communication with rescuers and home, damages that wildness.

Yes. I know, some, perhaps most, will have no idea of what I am saying. But I like to think there may be a few kindred souls remaining.

Weary

SGT Rock
12-26-2004, 22:02
Good post Weary.

The Old Fhart
12-27-2004, 00:48
I believe SGT Rock would agree that if you go to war you don’t want to have muskets (just to preserve your romantic idea of what warfare should be like) while the other side has AK-47s. To go into the wild without maps, 1st aid, shelter, and proper clothing is also romantic but not very smart. To criticize someone else’s use of technology while you are using silnylon, high tech hammocks, Goretex, etc., is also somewhat hypocritical. I’ve hiked in the whites for 45 years and have gone from cutting boughs for bedding to using a Thermorest mattress. Times and equipment change and I have been flexible enough to change as well. I don’t feel that that has cheapened my wilderness experience one bit. Our forefathers went into the wild with the best equipment they could afford and was available at the time. The ones that didn’t go properly equipped, didn’t survive. This wasn’t a game for them, it was life. By the way, just how many Everest climbers use wool clothes today?

It has been my experience that the people who hike the trail saying they want to get away from it all generally ask you what time it is, to see your map or guidebook, or make room in an overcrowded shelter because they chose not to bring “stuff” like a tent that would degrade their wilderness experience. They are not self-reliant but they are the first to criticize your enjoying your hike your way.

I also carry a cell phone and am not threatened by it at all. I have been a volunteer instructor in the New Hampshire AMC chapter’s mountain safety workshops for over 22 years and am certified in wilderness 1st aid. I have been on search and rescues and have seen where a cell phone could, in some situations where there was coverage, save hours on a rescue. I do not use a cell phone as a crutch but as a piece of equipment that can be used after everything else has been done. Other than using it for outgoing calls, it is off. Yes, I do make non-emergency calls with it as well, just not in shelters. This is because I rarely sleep in shelters, not because shelters degrade my wilderness experience, but because a crowded shelter degrades my ability to sleep.

Ramble~On
12-27-2004, 01:38
Frankly, I think cell phones are fantastic.
David Dinwiddie had a cell phone and for whatever reason needed help and got it. What would have happened to David if not for having his phone ? Well, we'll never know.
Hike your own hike. Take whatever gear best suits you.
David is alive, he can hike another day.

I usually do not carry my phone with me on hikes.
I have carried my phone with me when I was expecting an important call or had to make an important call. Without the phone along I wouldn't have been able to go where I wanted to go and do what I wanted to do.

Cell Phones, Guns, Dogs.
Cell Phones, Guns, Dogs.

Debate all you want to, like them or hate them...they'll always be there legal or not.

grrickar
12-27-2004, 01:42
I seriously doubt ANYONE ever pushed themselves because they had a cell phone on their person. If they did, then if they lived they very likely learned their lesson. :rolleyes:

Carry one, or don't -- but don't criticize others for carrying one. If they are using one in a way that annoys you, be man enough to approach them and tell them so. Spewing your contempt for the devices on a message board doesn't accomplish a dang thing.

I carry one, and I seek the approval of no one. I'm courteous and use it off the trail and away from shelters, where no one can see or hear me. I also keep it off when I'm not making an outbound call. If others don't do the same, it has nothing to do with me, sorry - take it up with them.

neo
12-27-2004, 01:46
i do not think its any ones buisness if i carry a cell phone or not,i never use mine in the presence of other hikers,no hiker has the right to tell me what i should or should not be carrying in my pack:sun neo

grrickar
12-27-2004, 02:20
A few of us, at least, simply prefer to keep wild places wild and recognize that carrying the means of instance communication with rescuers and home, damages that wildness.
Weary
So a ranger showing up at a shelter with a two way radio ruins your trail experience? If you fall and said ranger grabs his radio from his belt to call in for help you'd ask him not to? What about if that was another hiker with a cell phone calling 911 for someone to help you?

Cell towers aren't there to cater to AT hikers, they are there because 60% of the US population now carries one. I don't agree with towers every mile apart either but it happens nonetheless. Will leaving my cell phone at home save us from more towers going up - not likely.

To me there are plenty other issues to tackle to keep the AT pristine - like people burying their waste and packing out their trash. I saw several cases where people left plastic smouldering in the fire rings and shelter fireplaces, and piles of human waste convienently flagged with white TP. I didn't see anyone chatting on a cell phone.

SGT Rock
12-27-2004, 06:30
Frankly, I think cell phones are fantastic.
David Dinwiddie had a cell phone and for whatever reason needed help and got it. What would have happened to David if not for having his phone ?

As I understand he didn't get a good signal. He was found the old fashioned way by a pair of hikers going down the trail who happened to hear him then go find the rangers and get him help. It sort of throws that out since we do know what happened to him.

SGT Rock
12-27-2004, 07:58
criticize someone else’s use of technology while you are using silnylon, high tech hammocks, Goretex, etc., is also somewhat hypocritical. I’ve hiked in the whites for 45 years and have gone from cutting boughs for bedding to using a Thermorest mattress. Times and equipment change and I have been flexible enough to change as well. I don’t feel that that has cheapened my wilderness experience one bit. Our forefathers went into the wild with the best equipment they could afford and was available at the time. The ones that didn’t go properly equipped, didn’t survive. This wasn’t a game for them, it was life. By the way, just how many Everest climbers use wool clothes today?

Ahh, but my sil-nylon stuff doesn't need repeater towers to work. My hammock doesn't speak out loud around others. My stove doesn't need me to hold conversations with it nightly to keep it satisfied I am safe in order to stay working on the trail. The thought that any technological improvement is equal to all other technology is simply a straw dog argument. We have always had pants, so a pair of GorTex pants is just a change in fabric like changing from leather to wool was for pioneers. Stoves are portable heat that save the forest and allow lower impact camping formore people in the same site. etc, etc,etc...

Cell phones, boom boxes, portable TVs, 2-way radios, are adding the convininces of home to someone's kit, and often a person will use the justification of safety to excuse carrying the thing. Every year we hear the same questions about cell phones for safety, LOL! If you are worried about safety: build a good first aid kit, carry maps, learn to use a compass, have adequate clothing and a good sleeping bag, carry a shelter of some sort, work out to get in shape before you hit the trail. A cell phone doesn't substitute for any of this.

Think about how much a cell phone actually helps. Think about what is actually more likely to hurt you on the trail. I mean if you were really interested in safety, then a pair of kneepads would get more use over time on the trail for actual safety than a cell phone would, but no one wants to hike in kneepads, yet it seems more and more people want to bring their safety cell phone with them.

Skeemer
12-27-2004, 09:39
What about the guy whose wife wouldn't let him hike the Trail unless he carried one? Look what he would have missed.

They are now a fact of life and I don't care what anyone says, they do detract from the "wilderness experience"...even if it's just knowing there are hikers out there secretly carrying one.

SGT Rock
12-27-2004, 09:57
No it doesn't detract knowing it is there. I never said anything of the sort and a lot of others have said exactly the same thing, but it seems the favorite argument of the cell phone proponents that people objecting to them consider them some sort garlic to a vampire sort of magic to them. The truth is we know what is going on and the slippery slope it can lead to. One only need look around to the state of our country on such things.

It "seems" that all the cell phone proponents all plan to just carry one and never use it? I doubt that. Do they plan on getting in a jam so they can use it? I dount that either. So the agenda is they want one period - well bully for them. But you also need a good GPS and a map if you really want to call for help - seems no one wants to add all that to the unused cell phone kit. The goal seems to be able to call and say "Guess where I am calling from?"

Keeping in touch,well I think there may be a few people out there that have been less in touch with family than I have, but for the most part I think I have a good deal of experience in this are and I know that the family can live without a daily phone call. If his wife makes him carry one, then he should do like all good husbands and carry it without ever turning it on. Eventually the wife could get over her concern.

Anyway, it detracts when people use them without thought to those around them. The people that assume that the phone is generally accepted on the trail; and the idea that those that do not accept them need to get over it because as it has been stated-they are leagal and a fact of life. Sure some of you have not specifically said "get over it", but what are the people that aren't interested in your phone conversation to think when you say something like that? What detracts/will detract from the wilderness experience is when the safety nazis and their weenie followers decide that it is a safety issue that we need better cell phone coverage for the trail in order to make it safer.

neo
12-27-2004, 10:21
I say each to his own,if ya wanna carry a cell phone,i do not have a home phone,my computer is on high speed cable,all i have is a cell phone,it has internet,an excellent weather program with dopplar weather,lots of great stuff,i dont give as rats ass about what any body thinks,its my cell phone and i am gonna carry it.:sun neo

weary
12-27-2004, 11:13
So a ranger showing up at a shelter with a two way radio ruins your trail experience? If you fall and said ranger grabs his radio from his belt to call in for help you'd ask him not to? What about if that was another hiker with a cell phone calling 911 for someone to help you?
.
The answers in order: Yep, nope and nope. Rangers showing up always annoy me -- radio or no. I knew most would not understand. But I'll provide a hint. It's the knowledge of the presence of instant communication that is the problem. Not the use.

Thus, when a new paved road crosses the Appalachian Trail north of Saddleback to provide access for the maintenance of thirty 400-foot high industrial energy towers I'll resent the intrusion into one of the wildest roadless areas on the entire 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail. But that doesn't mean I won't from time to time arrange to be picked up at the intersection.

Let me suggest that those who are not bothered by the unnecessary intrusion of civilization in the few remaining wildlands, consider using highways and walkways for their hiking excursions. It would be both easier and far safer.

Weary

Puck
12-27-2004, 11:49
[QUOTE=SGT Rock
Anyway, it detracts when people use them without thought to those around them. The people that assume that the phone is generally accepted on the trail; and the idea that those that do not accept them need to get over it because as it has been stated-they are leagal and a fact of life. Sure some of you have not specifically said "get over it", but what are the people that aren't interested in your phone conversation to think when you say something like that? What detracts/will detract from the wilderness experience is when the safety nazis and their weenie followers decide that it is a safety issue that we need better cell phone coverage for the trail in order to make it safer.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more. Cell phones amplify ones charecter. If one is rude, self centered and obnoxious by nature a cell phone helps them offend more people. If one is considerate you could never tell they have a phone. Many people treat the outdoors like it is a cathedral. Cells phones are an intrusion. But I noticed at the midnight service on christmas eve some idiot left thier cell phone on. It kept chiming with this cheap electronic sounding Christmas song. So it seems in today's age nothing is considered sacred.

I bring a cell phone and I leave it in the car. I have always made a call when Im finished with a trip. Remeber the emergency dime in the first aid kit? I use to use it in a pay phone to call home. When I am hiking I want to be away from it all. Safety? That is a weak argument at best. Your safety depends on you training and state of mind. Besides as has been said before, if one needs to be safe...stay home. Life has risks.

Miss Janet
12-27-2004, 12:12
A few years ago there were occaisionally hikers with phones that would quietly ask if there was somewhere they could recharge. I heard "Mom" "Dad" "Children" made me carry it. I remember an older retired teacher that felt he was forced to carry a phone for his families peace of mind. He was very afraid of what other hikers would say. Most people kept the off and seemed to be low key about them.

Now, I find chargers plugged in all through the house. I have seen 4-5 hikers on phone in my front yard... at the same time! Even the hikers that do not have a phone are quick to recall who does have one ... if they need it. I think they are going to be out there on the trails in greater numbers every year.

I am not so sure how I feel about that. I have been in the woods and found that really weird chirping sound was not a new kind of cricket. Having to listen to someone take a call at a resturant is rude... in the woods it is obnoxious!... But, I have also been involved with rescues where a cell phone was a real factor. But in order for a cf to help you have to remember to get hurt where there is a signal... and remember that a 911 call from the woods may go back to your home in Boston!

Jaybird
12-27-2004, 12:22
A few years ago there were occaisionally hikers with phones that would quietly ask if there was somewhere they could recharge...........................Now, I find chargers plugged in all through the house. I have seen 4-5 hikers on phone in my front yard.........................
I am not so sure how I feel about that. I have been in the woods and found that really weird chirping sound was not a new kind of cricket. Having to listen to someone take a call at a resturant is rude... in the woods it is obnoxious!... But, I have also been involved with rescues where a cell phone was a real factor............................................ .............


Miss Janet:

I'm w/ you! I, personally, dont care much for Cell Phones especially while i'm out "communing with Wilderness"......but, while i'll be out in 2005 for 3 straight weeks....i promised my wife i will carry one for "emergency use only".
This, she says, makes her feel better...as i will be hiking alone 2 of the 3 weeks.

see you in May! :D

The Old Fhart
12-27-2004, 12:34
SGT Rock, Sorry that in your post #112 that you thought that my entire post was directed at you, only the first sentence was, and you clipped that off when quoting me. However, your responses seem to be to refute what I have stated while overlooking the last paragraph in my post so I’ll repeat it again:
I also carry a cell phone and am not threatened by it at all. I have been a volunteer instructor in the New Hampshire AMC chapter’s mountain safety workshops for over 22 years and am certified in wilderness 1st aid. I have been on search and rescues and have seen where a cell phone could, in some situations where there was coverage, save hours on a rescue. I do not use a cell phone as a crutch but as a piece of equipment that can be used after everything else has been done. Other than using it for outgoing calls, it is off. Yes, I do make non-emergency calls with it as well, just not in shelters. This is because I rarely sleep in shelters, not because shelters degrade my wilderness experience, but because a crowded shelter degrades my ability to sleep. Notice that I never, never, say I rely on a cell phone or that I use it in public. As to your suggesting kneepads are more practical, Bill Irwin would agree with that being a good safety item but I doubt that many hikers would put them ahead of a cell phone. Your stating:
The thought that any technological improvement is equal to all other technology is simply a straw dog argument. We have always had pants, so a pair of GorTex pants is just a change in fabric like changing from leather to wool was for pioneers. Stoves are portable heat that save the forest and allow lower impact camping formore people in the same site. etc, etc,etc... is an incorrect analogy. There has always been human communication from pictographs, smoke signals, letters, etc…, and 2meter HTs, satellite phones, and cell phones are all just another “high-tech” means of communications.

When you say:
If you are worried about safety: build a good first aid kit, carry maps, learn to use a compass, have adequate clothing and a good sleeping bag, carry a shelter of some sort, work out to get in shape before you hit the trail. A cell phone doesn't substitute for any of this. You are ignoring what I said. I carry all the “stuff” you have mentioned and have the knowledge and experience to use it all. I do not turn a blind eye on any method of getting help in an emergency.

What is being ignored here is that thru-hikers are a very small minority of the approximately 4-5 million trail users out there. While we like to think of ourselves as “elite”, most trail users don’t have our experience so to criticize their choice of equipment isn’t too meaningful. I also don’t want to hear anyone else’s cell phone ring or be caught in the middle of their conversation but that is the fault of the person, not the technology. That is the same as saying cars should be banned because drunk drivers use them and ignoring that millions use them somewhat responsibly. The problem with a brief reply like this to a complex subject is that it will be misconstrued.

Skeemer
12-27-2004, 13:20
The guy I was referring to in post @113 was required to try and call his wife every night...so it was more of a "hey honey I'm still alive and still love you" sort of thing more than it was an emergency issue. Anyway, it was the only way she was gonna let him hike the AT and he so he did try and use it every night.

There were 3 of us in a shelter one night. He used his phone openly. After that the other person makes a call in the open and explains to the person on the other end "how cf's are now accepted on the AT and are no big deal."

I know I should have said something to him but I really liked the guy and didn't want to piss him off. If I had said something, I believe he would have said "I don't care what you or anyone else thinks, I'm gonna use it."

Bloodroot
12-27-2004, 13:39
The guy I was referring to in post @113 was required to try and call his wife every night...so it was more of a "hey honey I'm still alive and still love you" sort of thing more than it was an emergency issue. Anyway, it was the only way she was gonna let him hike the AT and he so he did try and use it every night.

There were 3 of us in a shelter one night. He used his phone openly. After that the other person makes a call in the open and explains to the person on the other end "how cf's are now accepted on the AT and are no big deal."

I know I should have said something to him but I really liked the guy and didn't want to piss him off. If I had said something, I believe he would have said "I don't care what you or anyone else thinks, I'm gonna use it."
Again another example of people lack of respect for others. This whole topic runs along the same lines as many of the other hot topics we have discussed in the past. It all boils down to common courtesy. I have no problem if someone uses their phone, just keep it away from me. If folks feel like they have to have it for a security measure or peice of mind, so be it. But I have to agree, if folks think a phone will save you, chances are they will be sadly mistaken by their own poor judgement. Folks, like the one you mentioned, could care less that people still leave urban life to commune with nature. After all the wilderness should be place maintained for "primeval character and influence" to keep "the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable." (The Wilderness Act of 1964)

Bloodroot
12-27-2004, 13:47
The guy I was referring to in post @113 was required to try and call his wife every night...so it was more of a "hey honey I'm still alive and still love you" sort of thing more than it was an emergency issue. Anyway, it was the only way she was gonna let him hike the AT and he so he did try and use it every night.

There were 3 of us in a shelter one night. He used his phone openly. After that the other person makes a call in the open and explains to the person on the other end "how cf's are now accepted on the AT and are no big deal."

I know I should have said something to him but I really liked the guy and didn't want to piss him off. If I had said something, I believe he would have said "I don't care what you or anyone else thinks, I'm gonna use it."
Again another example of people lack of respect for others. This whole topic runs along the same lines as many of the other hot topics we have discussed in the past. It all boils down to common courtesy. I have no problem if someone uses their phone, just keep it away from me. If folks feel like they have to have it for a security measure or peice of mind, so be it. But I have to agree, if folks think a phone will save you, chances are they will be sadly mistaken by their own poor judgement. Folks, like the one you mentioned, could care less that people still leave urban life to commune with nature. After all the wilderness should be place maintained for "primeval character and influence" to keep "the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable." (The Wilderness Act of 1964)

SGT Rock
12-27-2004, 13:52
Old Fhart,

Sorry if my post seemed totally directed at you. Really only the part about technology and phones was my point in response to you. The rest of the post "you" was more to the general phone user. No hard feelings at all on this end and I hope none on yours as well.

But anyway, since man has always had some means of communications doesn't mean they ended up in a hiking kit, that is something more recent. Sure you can argue that there has been smoke signals pre electrical days, but not until recently have you seen people listing communications devices on the trail as a must have safety item. I think Skeemer's post shows clearly the creep in attitude I am referring too by the cell phone supporters, if he had been hiking only10 years earlier his wife would have gotten used to the phone call every 4-5 days from the gaps and been comfortable, now she can demand his use of something totally unnecessary.

I honestly think this is off trail conditioning bringing itself to the trail, same as folks thinking they need item X to make it through the day or to be safe based on city thinking, not the realization of what the outdoors is really like or about for others around them - same as thinking you need a gun to hike for whatever reason. I figure most people that want to bring a cell phone already decided it before they read these posts, so they either continue to agree with the safety logic to justify the phone. Or maybe, just maybe there may be the one or two folks out there that realize after reading these debates just how unnecessary and often useless a phone is and also they may end up understanding before they get there that there are still quite a few people that do not want to see or hear their phone conversations in the woods.

Bloodroot
12-27-2004, 14:05
Again another example of people lack of respect for others. This whole topic runs along the same lines as many of the other hot topics we have discussed in the past. It all boils down to common courtesy. I have no problem if someone uses their phone, just keep it away from me. If folks feel like they have to have it for a security measure or peice of mind, so be it. But I have to agree, if folks think a phone will save you, chances are they will be sadly mistaken by their own poor judgement. Folks, like the one you mentioned, could care less that people still leave urban life to commune with nature. After all the wilderness should be place maintained for "primeval character and influence" to keep "the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable." (The Wilderness Act of 1964)
Again another example of people lack of respect for others. This whole topic runs along the same lines as many of the other hot topics we have discussed in the past. It all boils down to common courtesy. I have no problem if someone uses their phone, just keep it away from me. If folks feel like they have to have it for a security measure or peice of mind, so be it. But I have to agree, if folks think a phone will save you, chances are they will be sadly mistaken by their own poor judgement. Folks, like the one you mentioned, could care less that people still leave urban life to commune with nature. After all the wilderness should be place maintained for "primeval character and influence" to keep "the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable." (The Wilderness Act of 1964)

grrickar
12-27-2004, 14:49
Let me state for the record that I do not argue with anyone that cell phone users are many times disrespectful. I see it in public places all the time - the yappy businessman sitting next to you talking 10x louder than he needs to, presumably because he thinks it makes him appear important. I'm sure there are those types that are found on the trail as well, and that is unfortunate. Cell phones ring in churches, movie theaters, restaurants, etc. and they are annoying.

I don't think that there will ever be a ban on cell phones on the trail. I also think those who carry them as their only means of safety are misguided. If they carry all of the other proper equipment, a cell phone them becomes nothing more than another means of possibly being rescued in an emergency.

I carry my phone to stay in contact with my family (discreetly, as I have stated in my other posts), and I have parents whose health is failing. I would not want to return from a week long hike to find out one of them had a stroke and has been in the hospital the whole time (my mom has already had one stroke).

While it is not fully implemented yet, phase two ANI has been mandated by the FCC, and should be completed by December 2005. Phase I ANI is currently in effect, and allows 911 centers that are equipped properly to recieve the coordinates of the tower that the call was placed from. This would give rescuers a general idea of where the individual is. In the Knoxville Times article, it said they knew the general area of the park that the hiker was in. This was likely due to the Phase I data the 911 center recieved.

Phase II ANI takes things a step further and requires that the cellular carrier provide far more precise information, with an accuracy of 50 to 300 meters.

I work for a company that provides software to public safety communication centers around the world, and I can say the push is on to get this implemented.

I did some onsite work for the Coconino County dispatch center (AZ) and they said that hikers there get lost, have no maps, and they have no idea where they are. Phase II ANI is a great help to SnR crews for locating the victim(s), else they are fumbling in the dark to try and find the person(s), which wastes time and resources.


From the FCC website:

"The wireless Enhanced 911 (E911) rules seek to improve the effectiveness and reliability of wireless 911 service by providing 911 dispatchers with additional information on wireless 911 calls.
The wireless E911 program is divided into two parts - Phase I and Phase II. Phase I requires carriers, upon appropriate request by a local Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP), to report the telephone number of a wireless 911 caller and the location of the antenna that received the call. Phase II requires wireless carriers to provide far more precise location information, within 50 to 300 meters in most cases.

The deployment of E911 requires the development of new technologies and upgrades to local 911 PSAPs, as well as coordination among public safety agencies, wireless carriers, technology vendors, equipment manufacturers, and local wireline carriers. The FCC established a four-year rollout schedule for Phase II, beginning October 1, 2001 and to be completed by December 31, 2005. "

http://www.fcc.gov/911/enhanced/

Frosty
12-27-2004, 14:51
I do not use a cell phone as a crutch but as a piece of equipment that can be used after everything else has been done. Good point. The mere act of carrying maps, GPSs, and cell phones is not a sign that you rely on them to the exclusion of all else. It only means that you are carrying a piece of safety gear which may come in handy. It does not mean you have neglected other means of recovery, or that you will use a cell phone to call for help needlessly (though there may be a special place in hell for those who do abuse cell phones in the woods).

orangebug
12-27-2004, 16:49
... the yappy businessman sitting next to you talking 10x louder than he needs to, presumably because he thinks it makes him appear important. ...I understand that the loud speaking is related to a design flaw/feature of cell phones. On regular land lines, we hear our own speach repeated through the earset. On cell phones, there is no similar feedback to regulate our volume. If the user has the earset volume set low, he will shout even louder as he only hears himself with one ear.

Cell phones are a fact of life, and occasionally provide a service to ill and injured hikers. More frequently, they are an intrusion that we will learn to deal with. Blaming injury victims because they employed a cell phone call to seek rescue is rather foolish and shallow.

Stix
12-29-2004, 16:10
I think the real issue here is rude people and not cell phones. Can I get a amen brother? For the record, I carry my cell turned off and when I use it, I will walk away so as not to be heard by other hikers. Technology is not to be feared, embrace it. :)

SGT Rock
12-29-2004, 16:11
Well a half Amen.

Drala Hiker
12-30-2004, 11:35
Amazing how this thread went off on a cell phone tangent. According to the information in the Knoxville paper, and further information I was told by GSMNP volunteers, David D. was not found via cell phone triangulation. The authorities were able to triangulate an area he was in, but were not yet at the scene. The hikers that stumbled across David (literally, as he had placed himself squarely in the trail) in fact had a GPS, took coordinates, and gave those to SAR. That is how they quickly found him. The cell phone scenario merely made SAR aware that a hiker was down in a rather large and rugged geographic area.

Has anyone seen any further info in the papers on this incident? The article was written in the midst of the holiday rush, many details were left unanswered, and I wonder if the KNS bothered with a followup article (as they no doubt would if David had not survived).

SGT Rock
12-30-2004, 11:47
I haven't heard more about this, but I did talk with a local hiker (Captain Chaos) who knows David. Apparently he is a tough old bird. The story I heard was about a previous hike where a tree fell on him and he was stuckunder there until some other hikers showed up to the shelter and rolled it off him. Apparently he was pretty bruised up, but just spent the night at the shelter then hiked out the next day with his pack over one shoulder because his other was too bruised up to carry a load with.

JillJones
12-30-2004, 12:36
I think the real issue here is rude people and not cell phones. Can I get a amen brother? For the record, I carry my cell turned off and when I use it, I will walk away so as not to be heard by other hikers. Technology is not to be feared, embrace it. :) Take a ride on Amtrak on a daily basis and at the end of the day listening to 20 people talk while trying to relax is futile. The rolling message displayed at the head of each car informing cell phone users to be considerate of fellow passengers seems useless. Most could give a rip. Of course, it's annoying listening to one side of a conversation. Like listening to a deranged individual next to you talking to themselves. Just a though for fun and educating them as well. Next time, start a conversation with yourself... Talk about the most boring subject. “ Hey Bill, Jill here… Look I was thinking about the molecular structure in the T-4 Polywally-By Golly polymer chain which, the segmented block copolymer containing those long, randomly coiled, liquid, soft segments that move to a more linear, lower entropy”. For fun, every once in a while throw in, "Hold on, your breaking up, You there?, You there? Hello... Damm, You there?" Of course I would wait about 5 minutes before my stop before attempting the deed.....Like I said, just a thought....

oldfivetango
01-06-2005, 10:06
I agree that Percival is probably a kid.I often tell the wife and kids that i
can "read people" after my many years of dealing with the public.I would
not be surprised if i were to learn that Percival is probably one of those
Gothic(dressed in black only types like Harris and Kliebold) and probably
a Satanists as well.
Or he could just me a sadistic jerk that enjoys hitting other people's hot
buttons.In either case he is one sick little puppy.
Best wishes to Mr David Dinwiddie-hope to meet you on the trail someday,sir.
Oldfivetango

oldfivetango
01-06-2005, 10:46
Obviously, a cell phone from time to time will save lives. But some of us also go into the woods not to maximize our safety, but to expose ourselves to primitive challenges. We deliberately do not carry the crutch of a cell phone and resent it when others damage our sense of wildness by publicly doing so.

This is not a matter of being clean or unclean, OB. It is a deliberate decision designed to maximize our outdoor experiences. If our aim were maximum safety, there are many things society could do. We could pave all the trails, install escalators on steep slopes, top every mountain with a cellular transmitting tower, require medical and psychiatric examinations before venturing out, require cell phone use....

A few of us, at least, simply prefer to keep wild places wild and recognize that carrying the means of instance communication with rescuers and home, damages that wildness.

Yes. I know, some, perhaps most, will have no idea of what I am saying. But I like to think there may be a few kindred souls remaining.

Weary So in the event that one of us "stealth cell phone carriers" should find
you lying on the trail with symptoms of heat stroke or heart attack you would not want us/me to call 911 and violate your sense of "wildness"?
Whatever works for you -but you better be conscious enough to tell me
not to make that call.
Oldfivetango

oldfivetango
01-06-2005, 10:58
I think the real issue here is rude people and not cell phones. Can I get a amen brother? For the record, I carry my cell turned off and when I use it, I will walk away so as not to be heard by other hikers. Technology is not to be feared, embrace it. :) AMEN Brother! I have acquaintances who will take a cell call at
the coffe shop in the midst of their buds and yap on whilst the rest
of us sit there quietly offended.It's ridiculously rude behavior.
Incidentally, I would NEVER carry a GPS on the AT but a cell phone
in the "OFF" position could be a Godsend to others and i would not
hesitate to use it in that scenario but would not even consider using
one in the presence of a fellow hiker unless it was a partner who would
permit its use.
Oldfivetango:clap

titanium_hiker
01-06-2005, 12:43
No, I don't think there should be tax-funded fire departments

fires spread.

this means that if a 'non subscriber' set thier house on fire, and the fire dept. ignored it untill it spread to the other subscriber's houses... and then it is too big to controll or stop.... *shudder*
When a farm starts to burn all the neighbours take off in fireequiped tractors to the fire... part neighbourly, part protecting their own property.

Background on me... I am an Australian who leans to the left and thinks that taxes are mostly good. "If we have enough to eat and drink, and adequate clothing, then we will be content with that"
When a farm starts to burn all the neighbours take off in tractors to the fire... part neighbourly, part protecting their own property.

titanium_hiker

:)

minnesotasmith
01-08-2005, 05:26
Being private does NOT mean that people in an organization are prevented from using their brains; in fact, they are more likely to do so than are people in gov't orgs. For example, if a young female member of one's family chronically lived irresponsibly and immorally, even producing multiple bastards while using drugs, would anyone (acting privately) just set them up in their own apartment, provide them with food/ medical care/spending money, and expect nothing in the way of self-improvement or contrition from them? Of course not, but gov't does that all the time, proving my point.

Wolfpaw
01-03-2006, 00:49
i hope he is ok. comments like these make me worried about other people out there. hope i dont end up needing any help around elitist prickslike this. id be better off alone it seems. I ll be thru hiking in march and it could get just as rough for a few weeks. lookout for karma police Dic#s. so much for togetherness
wolfpaw

weary
01-03-2006, 01:47
So in the event that one of us "stealth cell phone carriers" should find
you lying on the trail with symptoms of heat stroke or heart attack you would not want us/me to call 911 and violate your sense of "wildness"?
Whatever works for you -but you better be conscious enough to tell me
not to make that call. Oldfivetango
Well as I predicted, "... some, perhaps most, will have no idea what I am saying."

Dances with Mice
01-03-2006, 01:57
Well as I predicted, "... some, perhaps most, will have no idea what I am saying."I'd consider it dead certain. Some, perhaps most, find it easier to follow threads with less than 360 days between replies.

Shutterbug
01-03-2006, 02:00
My hat is off to the gent. I hope at 62 I'll have what it takes to backpack in the smokies in December. Hope hes is rescued quickly and has a speedy recovery.



This discussion reminds me of an incident that happened this summer. I was on the Wonderland Trail when I met a young female hiker coming from the other direction. She was looking for a Ranger to help rescue her father who was stranded on the trail. She said, "He is 62 years old and is a heart patient. He needs help." My first reaction was, "Well, what does he expect. A 62 year-old heart patient shouldnt' be in this kind of situation." My second thought was "Wait a second. I am a 62 year-old heart patient."

All I can say is that you younger folks shouldn't judge Mr. Dinwitty too harshly. If you are lucky, you will still be around to hike with us "old guys" when you are in your '60's.

Shutterbug
01-03-2006, 02:08
i hope he is ok. comments like these make me worried about other people out there. hope i dont end up needing any help around elitist prickslike this. id be better off alone it seems. I ll be thru hiking in march and it could get just as rough for a few weeks. lookout for karma police Dic#s. so much for togetherness
wolfpaw

Because Wolfpaw brought this thread back to the top, I decided to "Google" David Dinwiddie to see if he survived the incident that was discussed last year. This article was from last week:

Hiker who was rescued goes hiking to celebrate
<TABLE cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=0 width=180 align=right bgColor=#ffffff border=0 NAME="D20"><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle colSpan=2>http://wate.images.worldnow.com/images/4283002_BG1.jpg</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle colSpan=2>It looks like nothing will stop David Dinwiddie.
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December 23, 2005
By TIM MILLER
(http://wate.com/Global/Story.asp?s=1199666)6 News Anchor/Reporter
KNOXVILLE (WATE) -- While most people are preparing for the holidays, one man who loves to hike has even more to celebrate, life itself.
Imagine being stuck in heavy snow in the Smokies by yourself for four nights. That's what happened to David Dinwiddie this time last year. But somehow, he survived.
"I figured somebody would be along any time but it was four days and four nights I laid there," Dinwiddie says.
It was a hike up the Smokies that Dinwiddie will never forget. On December 19, 2004, he ventured out by himself to meet some friends at Pack's Corner, near Cosby. But high winds blew him down, his backpack got tangled in a tree limb and he lay in snow that had been waist deep.
Dinwiddie decided to stay with his gear so he wrapped himself in his sleeping bag and waited. He ate pine needles, snow and mud, not knowing if someone would come by in time, or at all.
"I was wondering, will I see tomorrow? Will I see another day? What, you know, what were they thinking about me at work, you know, because I was supposed to be back at work."
As luck would have it, three other hikers, a father and two sons, eventually found Dinwiddie. They went for help and came back with park rangers who rescued him.
"I had already lost all my body fluid and I think the doctor told me I probably only had three to four more hours to live. I would have been gone," Dinwiddie says. He suffered serious frostbite and had two toes amputated.
Dinwiddie still has some physical problems but his hands are healed.
He's planning to spend the one year anniversary of his rescue by returning to the Smokies for a New Year's Eve hike. But not by himself. He'll have four friends to help him along the way.
You may think David Dinwiddie is crazy to return to hiking after what he's endured but he says, "I'm a mountain man so I've got to get back to the mountains."
It looks like nothing will stop him.

:clap

TAMBOURINE
01-03-2006, 04:55
God i hope yall never say that about me i have Seizures not bad but i don't let that stop me and it has been a dream of mine to hike hope i don't fall out on my thur hike and need help...I will probally be called stupid also.

weary
01-03-2006, 12:48
God i hope yall never say that about me i have Seizures not bad but i don't let that stop me and it has been a dream of mine to hike hope i don't fall out on my thur hike and need help...I will probally be called stupid also.
DelDoc took medicine for epiletic seizures, but managed to hike the trail -- and run marathons -- several times in his 70s. A year before he died, he was carrying a pack with many pounds of GPS equipment plus his regular gear to pinpoint the location of the trail.

orangebug
01-03-2006, 13:27
...I will probally be called stupid also.People, in imperfect health, who leave perfectly good houses and think it is fun to walk in snow, rain, wind, heat and other adversity through hills and dales well populated with roads and parking lots.

Yeh, you have stupidity covered, but have a bunch of other compatriots.

MOREHEAD
01-04-2006, 07:47
I was living in knoxville when this story took place.
I spent alot of time in GSMNP
I kept a file of people that had either tried to die or had succesfully died in the smokies.
my thoughts on this story when it came out was that Mr. Dinwiddie had Zero Survival Instinct.

Smile
01-04-2006, 07:58
There's a great book about this called "Deep Survival" -Who lives, Who dies and Why. By Laurence Gonzales, it's a great book. A little technical in the physiology section, but the rest is littered with survival stories, or those who didn't make it, on rivers, mountains, trails, etc.

For those interested the ISBN is 0-393-32615-2

TAMBOURINE
01-04-2006, 09:13
People, in imperfect health, who leave perfectly good houses and think it is fun to walk in snow, rain, wind, heat and other adversity through hills and dales well populated with roads and parking lots.

Yeh, you have stupidity covered, but have a bunch of other compatriots. so your saying stay in my little house and be unhappy not likley i am a very out going person if i had some limb removed i suppose to let that get the best of me wrong i would try to keep walking or doing what i want to do just because i have had seizures means don't hike not likley but i guess that makes me stupid i would be stupid to listen to someone so negitive...have a nice day:) (((I will Hike my Hike))

weary
01-04-2006, 10:22
so your saying stay in my little house and be unhappy not likley i am a very out going person if i had some limb removed i suppose to let that get the best of me wrong i would try to keep walking or doing what i want to do just because i have had seizures means don't hike not likley but i guess that makes me stupid i would be stupid to listen to someone so negitive...have a nice day:) (((I will Hike my Hike))
Hey, Tambourine, OB was being ironic. He's like you. Nothing keeps him away from the trails. Not even a wife.

DavidNH
01-04-2006, 10:34
collapsing at 5000 feet in the smokies in winter.

Did I miss something here? why would some one be hiking at 5000 foot elevation in mid winter without snow shoes? and there was 2 feet of snow!!!

DavidNH

MOWGLI
01-04-2006, 10:46
collapsing at 5000 feet in the smokies in winter.

Did I miss something here? why would some one be hiking at 5000 foot elevation in mid winter without snow shoes? and there was 2 feet of snow!!!

DavidNH

1) This is not New Hampshire.

2) Snowshoes are not commonly used in the SE. Crampons are generally more useful. Still, I don't own a pair, and I backpack in the winter fairly frequently.

3) Lots of people backpack successfully in the Smokies in the winter. This guy got caught by a storm and made some bad choices. It happens.

4) Thankfully he's alive and back hiking. That's the spirit! Go David Dinwiddie!

mingo
01-04-2006, 11:10
i met this fellow at spence field one new year's eve. he had spent the past 33 new year's eves at that shelter. he was a really nice guy, very funny, like a stand-up comic, and had a lot of great stories to tell. we had a great time together. i imagine his survival skills were better than most. that kind of thing can happen to anybody.

cls
01-04-2006, 18:35
Does anyone know if he was back on the trail last month? On Dec. 19 I was southbound beweeen Thunderhead and Rocky Top and passed a guy going north. He looked to be in his 60's. I told him about the trail conditions ahead, 1 to 2 feet of snow generally and ice on a couple of steep rocky places. I was warning him specifically about the ice and he said that he had been hiking in the Park for many years and was familiar with the places I mentioned. Haven't heard of any rescues since then so I guess he made it whoever he was.

smokymtnsteve
01-04-2006, 18:46
People, in imperfect health, who leave perfectly good houses and think it is fun to walk in snow, rain, wind, heat and other adversity through hills and dales well populated with roads and parking lots.

Yeh, you have stupidity covered, but have a bunch of other compatriots.


Yahoo...I enjoyed the snowshoe trek to my Pickup truck and then the 125 miles drive in -30 degree weather across AK to met the fed ex plane in
Fairbanks(where it was slighty cooler @-43) to pick up my protease inhibitors,,,then back to Healy AK ,,and the snow shoe back up the mtn to the cabin with my meds, (which can't frezze), but luckily the weather had warmed up to -25 F,

Stoopid is as Stoopid does ;)

mingo
01-05-2006, 11:51
Does anyone know if he was back on the trail last month? On Dec. 19 I was southbound beweeen Thunderhead and Rocky Top and passed a guy going north. He looked to be in his 60's. I told him about the trail conditions ahead, 1 to 2 feet of snow generally and ice on a couple of steep rocky places. I was warning him specifically about the ice and he said that he had been hiking in the Park for many years and was familiar with the places I mentioned. Haven't heard of any rescues since then so I guess he made it whoever he was.

yes, he's back on the trail. there was a story in the newspaper saying he went back to spence field for another new year's eve but it said he wasn't hiking by himself anymore.

the goat
01-05-2006, 18:24
Yahoo...I enjoyed the snowshoe trek to my Pickup truck and then the 125 miles drive in -30 degree weather across AK to met the fed ex plane in
Fairbanks(where it was slighty cooler @-43) to pick up my protease inhibitors,,,then back to Healy AK ,,and the snow shoe back up the mtn to the cabin with my meds, (which can't frezze), but luckily the weather had warmed up to -25 F,

Stoopid is as Stoopid does ;)

sounds like ya'll are havin a heat wave! :sun

lobster
01-05-2006, 18:37
Tambourine,

"so your saying stay in my little house and be unhappy not likley i am a very out going person if i had some limb removed i suppose to let that get the best of me wrong i would try to keep walking or doing what i want to do just because i have had seizures means don't hike not likley but i guess that makes me stupid i would be stupid to listen to someone so negitive...have a nice day:) (((I will Hike my Hike))"

A punctuation mark once in while might be helpful to the reader!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Animal Man
01-05-2006, 19:05
This really pains me. We shouldn't be sending park service employees to hike up to 5,000 feet and carry some numbnut out on a guerney in 4 foot snowdrifts. Nature's job is to weed out fools like that.

I wonder if you would have the same feelings if it was you or one of your loved ones on that mountain. I think not!!

smokymtnsteve
01-05-2006, 19:30
I wonder if you would have the same feelings if it was you or one of your loved ones on that mountain. I think not!!

I had an AVM burst in my front left hemisphere and I dragged my own carcass out along with the help of my son ...so they should drag thier own carcass out,,,

mweinstone
01-05-2006, 20:26
sounds like my dear friend arty.making dohnuts and root beer? i guess he loves to gather sassafrass for it . so do i.wonder if hell be in accedents in north american mountaineering's journal. sounds like a mountaineer to me.one day im gonna bump into this guy i hope.goodfolk.matthewski out.