View Full Version : Barefoot/Minimalist Running
erichkopp
01-03-2011, 12:34
Does anyone here run trails barefoot, or in minimalist shoes? I've spent the last few months alternating between running barefoot and in Vibram Five Fingers and I'm sold on its benefits. I run slightly slower now, but have also done away with any of the knee pains that I had before - a totally acceptable tradeoff for me since I look at my trail running more as high-speed hiking between points of interest instead of running purely for speed.
For anyone that's tried running in any of the minimalist shoes available right now, what have you tried? I really like the idea of the Invisible Shoe Huraches (invisibleshoe.com), but I can't find a way to tie them that won't give me blisters. VFF's are still my go-to, but they look way too goofy for me to wear them for anything but running and hiking. I'm thinking about trying a pair of these shoes by Sockwa (http://www.sockwa.com/collections/amphibian/products/black-amphibian), but 1.5mm sounds REALLY thin for trail running. Any thoughts on the plethora of new minimalist shoes that will be coming out early this year? I'm especially looking forward to the Merrell Barefoot (http://www.merrell.com/US/en-US/Static/BarefootPreview.mvc.aspx) shoes.
I've heard that the minimalist New Balance shoes are pretty awesome but have yet to see them first hand. I've tried a few various shoes and just decided the approach wasn't for me. A
fiddlehead
01-03-2011, 15:22
I want to try them (i read the book "born to run")
And my one knee sometimes gives me problems after a long run.
But $100 is quiet the gamble isn't it.
So, i'll be watching this thread closely to hopefully come up with some other options (Vibram is all i've looked at so far)
Thanks.
Shiraz-mataz
01-03-2011, 15:30
I'm not a runner but I do hike in my VFF's (when not hiking barefoot). I like them a lot and actually wear them out and about town as well - they spur some interesting comments! For all the "barefoot shoe" marketing hype that Vibram puts out, they still feel VERY MUCH like a shoe. The easiest demonstration of this is to walk around with one on and the other foot bare - big difference. But thanks for posting the link to Sockwa. I'd heard of them but haven't looked at their shoes before. The 1.5 mm thick sole sounds more intriguing than scary so I may buy some if they ever make them in my size.
erichkopp
01-03-2011, 17:53
The fact that the Vibrams are still very shoe-like is another complaint of mine. http://shop.zemgear.com/ These might be worth checking out, too. They're basically a neoprene bootie with a thin rubber sole. Searching Google I found that they're also coming out with a running-specific version soon. Something like these or the Sockwas are more of what I'm looking for - super basic with a little protection from rocks and roots.
Fiddlehead, I started looking into minimal shoes after I developed knee problems from overdoing it way too quickly. I came into running from a cycling background racing road bikes, so the endurance was already there for me, and I didn't ease into my running at all. My knee hasn't been the same since, but I have no problems running barefoot or with a VFF while concentrating on keeping proper form. Realizing I was able to run on trails again was the greatest feeling. It's definitely not for everybody, but absolutely has worked for me.
pistol p
01-07-2011, 11:40
I've had the New Balance MT101s for 5 months, or so. I love them. They fit like a glove, support your feet well, very lightweight, and have good traction. I also like the rock guard in the sole. I don't do long distance backpacking or speed running in these, but they are great for day hiking. I think the steady trail running for point to point sight seeing is a great use for these shoes.
Good luck in your search.
fiddlehead
01-07-2011, 12:57
I've had the New Balance MT101s for 5 months, or so. I love them. They fit like a glove, support your feet well, very lightweight, and have good traction. I also like the rock guard in the sole. I don't do long distance backpacking or speed running in these, but they are great for day hiking. I think the steady trail running for point to point sight seeing is a great use for these shoes.
Good luck in your search.
They luck like a regular shoe compared to the Vibram 5 fingers.
I guess it's sort of like a hybrid.
Many of these shoes seem that way, except the Vibram 5 fingers.
One question: Do people wear socks with these type shoes?
I'm gonna order something soon so, keep the ideas coming folks
erichkopp
01-07-2011, 16:22
Injinji makes toe-socks that people sometimes use with Vibrams. Usually no socks are worn with Vibrams and the other options I've come across. I'm thinking about giving the ZEM's a try - the price is right.
Mismatch
01-09-2011, 13:09
Playing with the idea of making some of those invisible shoe huraches. I have a pair of vibrams that I run in but, as mentioned above, they are very much a shoe.
Even if I don't use them for running, just a daily all around shoe would be nice to have. Any thoughts on using something like the huraches as a trail shoe? seems like the perfect shoe for midnight bathroom trips and creek crossings. Has anybody tried them for that?
erichkopp
01-11-2011, 00:48
I have a pair of them and, as much as I want to love their simplicity, I have yet to figure out a way to lace them so that I won't get blisters between my big and second toes. I've run in them once and over the course of just a few miles I was constantly adjusting and retying them until I gave up and turned back. If I could figure out a way to lace them that would omit any of the cord needing to be between my toes, I think they'd be great.
I don't run (but someday maybe I will) but I have been making my own minimalist shoes and sandals. It has taken a lot of trial and error.
My shoes are zero-drop, no arch support, no real cushioning but my soles are a bit thicker than Barefoot Ted's Lunas. Usually between 10mm and 15mm. That seems to be about right for hiking on rocky trails. Too thin and I can't keep up with my friends.
I finished a pair of hideous sandals the other day. They are similar to sandals that Native Earth (http://oldesoles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=3) makes. I went for a walk in them today to test them out and did a little running in them. They turned out to be really comfortable. I could totally run in them. They don't slip or chafe. I could tell they let me run properly with a forefoot/midfoot strike, not a heel strike, nothing forced about it. I'm going to give them another test tomorrow. Anyway, if you don't want to go to the trouble of trying to make your own, perhaps the Native Earth sandals would work for you. Look how thin their sole is.
Here's a picture of the sandals I made (and my hairy hobbit feet :p)
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5169/5344378217_fcd86b45b7.jpg
stumpknocker
01-11-2011, 09:03
The options mentioned above are all interesting ideas.
I've been giving some thought to making my own moccasins from smoke tanned moose hide if I ever get enough down time. The information I've come up with by searching the internet is that to make a very durable pair, it has to be a thicker hide from a bull moose. This is what the trappers, hunters, native Americans and guides used in the early days.
They would even work well in cold temps from what I've read and they give you the free feel of the ground while still offering protection.
I have found some links where I could buy a quarter hide for a couple hundred dollars. I think that would be enough for about four pair which is a big gamble if it didn't work out....so I'll keep looking and maybe I can come up with someone that processes meat for hunters in Maine that might be able to help out with a smaller hide for less money.
I have become a firm believer in the barefoot thing. I had a nagging case of Plantar Facsiitis that wasn't getting better after 8 months. That was about the time I read "Born To Run" and I started going barefoot as much as possible...even running barefoot at the soccer field. The PF started getting better almost immediately.
You could use thinner leather for your moccasins and just glue on multiple layers on the sole for strength or even glue on some thin rubber soling so they last longer. Then you could at least build your skills and refine your pattern with cheap leather, possibly even stuff from the scrap bin, before hacking up some expensive stuff.
Anyway, I wouldn't have thought these sandals would be appropriate for running. Maybe somebody would laugh at me because they don't look like huaraches. But I just can't stand that toe thong on huaraches and all my attempts to make a sandal that was strappy like a huarache and didn't have a toe thong would flap in the front or even get caught in the front and trip me and would chafe in the wrong places. This style is way more comfortable. With the heel section cupping my heel and the toe parts protecting my pinky toes I don't feel like I have to fuss around with lacing, get used to them or worry about breaking my toes if I step wrong on a trail somewhere. Anyway, it is another option for those who can't wait for the new minimal shoes coming out in the spring from Altera and Merrel.
Pedaling Fool
01-11-2011, 17:55
I hate to be on the side of a bunch of barefoot hippies, but I believe there's something to all this talk about the benefits of going barefoot.
jen.sprout
01-12-2011, 21:30
Started running again last year and since I was going to have to blow $100 on something, I decided to try the VFFs. I did go out in my Sprints on the trails a few times first to make sure I could stand it. I bought a pair of the Biklias and love them - the thicker soles are the way to go for my flat, non-padded, hiking abused feet. They made running fun for me again.
FYI - if this helps anyone:
--I have run without socks, but used the Injinjis once the weather got cold - they work just fine. I figure you can do what you like.
--Make sure you actually change your running gait - some people think you run like you do in "regular" shoes; also realize you are doing something very different - be patient and take it slow. Plenty of web advice out there.
--Your calves will feel like a truck ran over them the first few times. My brother got me a pair of compression sleeves for my calves for Christmas and they have made all the difference in calf soreness - wear during and after your workout in the VFFs. Check out: Zenseh here http://www.zensah.com/compression-leg-sleeves.html
--I have run on pavement when I have to, but prefer to run on trails - usually that means run/hike/run/hike.
I consider running my "speed workout" for hiking. I decided to try running a 10k in them this weekend - not only did I finish it, I felt great and am the most nimble runner I've ever been. Plus it was entertaining to get the looks I did.....
Good luck - I'm not sure they are for everyone, but I love them.
-Sprout
I have been wearing Vibram KSOs for about a year now, and love them! Most people I know wear them as around town shoes... but I wear them for nearly anything. Sand, dirt, mud, rivers, salt water, around town, I even hiked a week in Acadia NP (maybe 60miles worth of mountainous terrain) without blisters or chaffing... and no socks.
They're not for everyone. If you are curious, find a brick and mortar store that stocks them and try them out to see if your foot will even fit them. They're like a glove... if not fitted properly, there can be a "webbed" effect or extra slop up front. NOT one size fits all!
I tell people, "It's like walking barefoot... I can still feel the gravel, it just doen't hurt when I run over it or step on a stick." I'll be buying a pair of the Komodo Sports when they're available.
I hate to be on the side of a bunch of barefoot hippies, but I believe there's something to all this talk about the benefits of going barefoot.
They remind me of "earth shoes" in the 80s. Remember those?
When the Kenyans give up their shoes, maybe I'll become a believer, but until I see barefoot elite marathoners, I'll remain a skeptic.
topshelf
01-12-2011, 22:03
I workout barefoot everyday when doing anything balance related. It has really helped strengthen my ankles and their supporting muscles.
When the Kenyans give up their shoes, maybe I'll become a believer, but until I see barefoot elite marathoners, I'll remain a skeptic.
That is, actually, where a lot of the "scientific" reports have come from to support barefoot running as "better." Many of the world's best/fastest runners train back home in Africa or the Caribbean on dirt roads and no shoes... Just saying...:-?
thechadders
01-14-2011, 03:44
Correct me if i am wrong but this running barefoot or in the vibrams is not a bad idea because shoes has actually altered the way we walk and run. Wearing no shoes you use more of the front of you foot like a spring rather than heels first with shoe running. Definatley have to build up the bottoms of the feet for that though.
That is, actually, where a lot of the "scientific" reports have come from to support barefoot running as "better." Many of the world's best/fastest runners train back home in Africa or the Caribbean on dirt roads and no shoes... Just saying...:-?
Evidence? Citation? :-? I've read all of Tanser's books and have never seen a single mention of elite distance runners training without shoes. And of the two documentaries that I have on Kenyan running, other than little kids goofing off and running about, I've never seen any marathoners going shoeless. I've only subscribed for a couple of years, but I don't recall seeing any elite-class distance runner mentioned in Running Times who trains or races barefoot. I look forward to seeing the names of the runners you know who train barefoot.
sherrill
01-14-2011, 10:15
I'm still on the fence on this. I can see the benefits, however, the trails I run are so full of roots and rocks it sometimes hurts even with trail runners on. Any gain from going barefoot would be negated by injury, at least for me.
This discussion has made me focus on not pounding my heels while I'm out, and I know it's working because my calves are sore as hell sometimes.
Pedaling Fool
01-14-2011, 12:41
They remind me of "earth shoes" in the 80s. Remember those?
When the Kenyans give up their shoes, maybe I'll become a believer, but until I see barefoot elite marathoners, I'll remain a skeptic.
That is, actually, where a lot of the "scientific" reports have come from to support barefoot running as "better." Many of the world's best/fastest runners train back home in Africa or the Caribbean on dirt roads and no shoes... Just saying...:-?
Evidence? Citation? :-? I've read all of Tanser's books and have never seen a single mention of elite distance runners training without shoes. And of the two documentaries that I have on Kenyan running, other than little kids goofing off and running about, I've never seen any marathoners going shoeless. I've only subscribed for a couple of years, but I don't recall seeing any elite-class distance runner mentioned in Running Times who trains or races barefoot. I look forward to seeing the names of the runners you know who train barefoot.
I don't remember "earth shoes", but don't doubt it one bit.
I can't argue with you, you're probably right. Barefoot running probably has no place in elite running. All I can say is my feet feel super well after a barefoot run on the beach compared to running with shoes around the city. Also all this talk makes me more conscious of how I land (i.e not pounding my heel). But it's probably mostly psychological. But I do know that my feet are much tougher thanks to running barefoot, which I also occasionally do on pavement.
But in the end it's hard to argue when we don't see any of the elites running barefoot.
I definitely agree that running barefoot on a beach is fun and feels great. Whenever I'm lucky enough to vacation in Destin, going on long barefoot beach runs is at the top of my list. But we're painfully lacking in ocean front property in Kentucky, so I have to put in my miles on roads and trails.
I also agree that many running shoes today are overly "built" and need to be scaled back so as they do not impede gait. If that's a "minimal" shoe, then I like it. But that's a far cry from being shoeless.
I've been in a few distance races and hope to have many more in front of me, but I've never once, as in not one single time, seen any serious runner racing barefoot. I'm not saying that no one does, just none that I've seen. And when I can't attend, I watch marathon races on www.universalsports.com (http://www.universalsports.com/) Again, never seen anyone racing barefoot. Maybe a few do but I can guarantee they ain't a medal threat. If someone wants to look at old races and sees the anomoly, I'd like to see it, too.
Here's a YouTube clip of the Lewa Marathon, which is run in northern Kenya (on my bucket list). I couldn't spot one single runner, be they elite, novice, or just goofing off, running barefoot. They all seem to really enjoy Nike, Adidas, Sportiva, and the like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COhlpStrW-4 If someone can spot one, I'll donate $50 to OneWorldRunning (formerly Shoes 4 Africa), which is one of many organizations dedicated to supplying new and gently used running shoes to African kids (who BTW seem to desperately want them so they can train/compete).
The link to OneWorld and many other similar programs may be found at: http://www.runtheplanet.com/shoes/selection/recycle.asp (http://www.runtheplanet.com/shoes/selection/recycle.asp)
Earth Shoes were these weirdo shoes that slanted backward. Very popular with earthy-crunchy types in the late 70s, until even the bandwagon folks soon realized that the fad caused definite achilles problems.
Correct! That's the idea Chadders.
Evidence? Citation? :-? I've read all of Tanser's books and have never seen a single mention of elite distance runners training without shoes. And of the two documentaries that I have on Kenyan running, other than little kids goofing off and running about, I've never seen any marathoners going shoeless. I've only subscribed for a couple of years, but I don't recall seeing any elite-class distance runner mentioned in Running Times who trains or races barefoot. I look forward to seeing the names of the runners you know who train barefoot.
Teglsa Loroupe ( a Kenyan) holds the world records for 20, 25 and 30 kilometres and previously held the world marathon record. She is the three-time World Half-Marathon champion. She was the first African woman to win the New York City Marathon, which she has won twice. She has won marathons in London, Boston, Rotterdam, Hong Kong, Berlin, Rome and many of other cities.
"In 1960 Ethiopia's Abebe Bikila, the greatest Olympic marathoner of all time, won the first of his consecutive gold medals sans shoes in a world record 2:15:17." -From the August 2004 issue of Runner's World, Should You be Running Barefoot? (More examples in found in the full article.)
Also read, "Barefoot Running." at the sports science web site sportsci.org
I'm not saying that barefoot is right for everyone, or every race/situation. The fact is though, in the simple google search I just did, there are "elite" runners that train and have raced sans shoes. If Loroupe and Bikila aren't "elite" enough for you, sorry for wasting your time.
Teglsa Loroupe ( a Kenyan) holds the world records for 20, 25 and 30 kilometres and previously held the world marathon record. She is the three-time World Half-Marathon champion. She was the first African woman to win the New York City Marathon, which she has won twice. She has won marathons in London, Boston, Rotterdam, Hong Kong, Berlin, Rome and many of other cities.
"In 1960 Ethiopia's Abebe Bikila, the greatest Olympic marathoner of all time, won the first of his consecutive gold medals sans shoes in a world record 2:15:17." -From the August 2004 issue of Runner's World, Should You be Running Barefoot? (More examples in found in the full article.)
Also read, "Barefoot Running." at the sports science web site sportsci.org
I'm not saying that barefoot is right for everyone, or every race/situation. The fact is though, in the simple google search I just did, there are "elite" runners that train and have raced sans shoes. If Loroupe and Bikila aren't "elite" enough for you, sorry for wasting your time.
I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that you'd mention Bikila, a runner who competed over a half century ago and died long before you were even born. He was certainly courageous to take off the shoes and run barefoot when his sponsor (Adidas) didn't have a pair to fit him. But he ran his other races WITH shoes, didn't he? Here he is in the '64 Olympics. He look barefoot to you?
Loroupe? Hell of a runner. She looks damned fast racing in her bare feet.
erichkopp
01-14-2011, 20:13
I also agree that many running shoes today are overly "built" and need to be scaled back so as they do not impede gait. If that's a "minimal" shoe, then I like it. But that's a far cry from being shoeless.
I agree with you. I'm not totally sold on running completely barefoot. I do run without shoes at times but, because I run trails 95% of the time, I like a little bit of protection and usually wear VFF. I could hardly see tons of runners suddenly eschewing their shoes, but I think there will be a lot more people wearing very scaled down, even minimal, type shoes in the future.
fiddlehead
01-14-2011, 21:06
Wow, what a bummer this thread turning into a debate on the merits of minimalist or barefoot running.
Was sure hoping this thread would lean towards techniques, different shoes, training, and talk about trials and tribulations rather than whether barefoot running is something that is not taking seriously.
I am taking it serious and just bought a pair of the Puma H shoes.
Now, i want to start running on trails and even concrete with the new shoes.
I also run a lot on the beach and know that my bad knee is much better when doing so.
I have read the book "Born to Run" and believe it enough to try it. (I remember cheering for Zola Budd in the Olympics one year)
Could any serious minimalist runners help me with how to train. How long you think it takes (miles? or days at what distances?, etc)
erichkopp
01-15-2011, 00:57
Right now I'm running about 25 miles a week mostly in Vibrams. I was running about 35-40 in various other trail running shoes but suffered from constant knee pain. Definitely take the "take it slow" advice seriously but go with what feels right. Some people can adapt much quicker and others seem to take much longer. I'm still working my way back to my previous mileage but my knees have never felt stronger; as well as my calves, the arches of my feet, and my lower body in general.
Johnny Thunder
01-15-2011, 02:26
Could any serious minimalist runners help me with how to train. How long you think it takes (miles? or days at what distances?, etc)
I've been using Nike Frees since 2006. On pair 4 or 5 now...but i run them until they fall apart (they're better when they stiffen up).
I think it depends on what you want to train for. Basic fitness for running is being able to run 3 miles daily (with rest days) with no soreness or fatigue. More than that and you'll have to work out a training program.
A few good rules for training programs are to:
focus on your weekly long-run (typically on race day). most races are sundays so you'll probably run the longest run of the week on sundays. your weekly training leads to this run. it's the most important.
never increase the distance of your long run or total mileage by more than 10%.
this is doubly true when using minimalist shoes. the shock on your joints is increased (if you don't run correctly in them) and you need to build up new strength in your feet/calves before you can run efficiently.
you need to work into a new gait (I think this was mentioned before). your foot strike should be a the ball of your foot/mid foot. NEVER on the heal...even when running downhill you need to sort of shuffle to do it correctly. think of your stride as extending out behind you starting from directly below your center mass. your feet should not strike in front of your hips. if you're doing it right you'll feel like you're pulling with your hamstrings rather than pushing with your quads.
i haven't tried any of the other shoes besides the frees...they work really well for me. i'm going to use them on the pct. so those are the only ones i can speak to.
Pedaling Fool
01-15-2011, 08:32
Does anyone here run trails barefoot, or in minimalist shoes? I've spent the last few months alternating between running barefoot and in Vibram Five Fingers and I'm sold on its benefits. I run slightly slower now, but have also done away with any of the knee pains that I had before - a totally acceptable tradeoff for me since I look at my trail running more as high-speed hiking between points of interest instead of running purely for speed.
For anyone that's tried running in any of the minimalist shoes available right now, what have you tried? I really like the idea of the Invisible Shoe Huraches (http://invisibleshoe.com), but I can't find a way to tie them that won't give me blisters. VFF's are still my go-to, but they look way too goofy for me to wear them for anything but running and hiking. I'm thinking about trying a pair of these shoes by Sockwa (http://www.sockwa.com/collections/amphibian/products/black-amphibian), but 1.5mm sounds REALLY thin for trail running. Any thoughts on the plethora of new minimalist shoes that will be coming out early this year? I'm especially looking forward to the Merrell Barefoot (http://www.merrell.com/US/en-US/Static/BarefootPreview.mvc.aspx) shoes.
What qualifies as minimalist shoes? By my definition I would think that the shoes shown in the first link (Invisible Shoe Huraches) would qualify, but can't tell about the other two links.
The reason I ask is because the other day I was looking at a pair of Vibram Five fingers (http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/index.htm), always heard they were minimalists, and I was surprised at the amount of sole padding and arch support. I always thought minimalist shoes were simply a extra covering for the soles of your feet and nothing more. The five fingers I saw kind of looked like the Merrell shoes in the OP's third link above.
BTW, it seems to me that the toe slots of those shoes are just a marketing tool, people go google over something different, but I'm sure some really like the feel, kind of like those socks with separate toes, which does nothing for me.
Camping Dave
01-16-2011, 19:23
Teglsa Loroupe ...Abebe Bikila ...
This is anecdote. Not science. There is an important difference but I am not going to explain it to you on whiteblaze.
Also read, "Barefoot Running." at the sports science web site sportsci.org
Do you mean the Caroline Burge article at sportsci.org that says this right at the very top:
"A formal assessment of the quality of evidence indicates that much more research is needed to confirm the effect of barefoot running on risk of injury and on competitive performance."