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Newb
12-25-2004, 18:01
I read in the newspaper this morning that someone had defaced (with spraypaint) the Jefferson Rock at Harper's Ferry. Just a sad note on the type of idiots we have in this world.

neo
12-26-2004, 14:13
vandals and thiefs piss me off:sun neo

Lone Wolf
12-27-2004, 08:48
If indians had spray paint 10,000 years ago they woulda used it to graffiti canyon walls and such.

SGT Rock
12-27-2004, 08:51
Probably,but it would have been more tastefull.

willyhort0w2
12-27-2004, 08:57
WOW, good answer L. Wolf. I'm loosing more and more respect for you with every new post you add. So are you saying that because they also had fire and guns it was ok for the colonists to attack and pillage indian camps. I mean come on L. Wolf think about some things before you say them.

Lone Wolf
12-27-2004, 09:03
Lighten up willy. Where's your sense of humor? :D Good thing indians didn't have better weapons than the oppressors. We wouldn't be here eatin no turkey on Thanksgiving. And willy, don't take the internet so serious. Put me on your ignore list if you're so sensitive.

Skeemer
12-27-2004, 09:03
This past September, a hiker was staying overnight in the back of his truck in my driveway (the beds were all taken in the house and he wanted to sleep in his truck) when at 2:20 a.m. four kids spray painted a dirty message on the back of his truck bed cover. He woke up, jumped out and scared the hell out of them. It was great! Too bad he didn't go after them and tackle one or have a gun that he could have fired in the air. But, maybe not cause some gd lawyer would have sued him.

You would like to think they wouldn't go after historical treasures. IMO, the penalties aren't stiff enough for these little bastards when they are caught...which is a rarety.

Just misguided youth that need did'nt get enough kicks from their video games I guess. That's why I always admire the children hiking with ther parents on the AT...really says something.

Jeff
12-27-2004, 09:27
You hit the nail on the head Skeemer!! Good parenting is a responsibility. More and more rare these days.

Hikerhead
04-02-2005, 17:23
I just read in the ATN today that they caught the little vandals that did this.

Who wants to make a bet.......$25 fine and a smack on the butt.

Oracle
04-02-2005, 17:49
Hopefully the vandals will get a good judge who will make them clean it off with toothbrushes.

plodder
04-02-2005, 17:55
Hope they piss in their Gore-Tex, with gaiters.

saimyoji
04-02-2005, 19:10
In Singapore kids get caned for such vandalism. I'm sure you all remember the story. I actually met that kid....a very misguided soul.

Rocks 'n Roots
04-05-2005, 00:42
"A slap on the wrist and a $25 fine."


Trailplace says the feds are throwing the book at them with a $250,000 fine and the possibility of 10 years...

smokymtnsteve
04-05-2005, 00:45
If indians had spray paint 10,000 years ago they woulda used it to graffiti canyon walls and such.

certainly correct..nowdays we find plenty of indian trash piles filled with broken pottery but we call theis trash they left behind artifacts. ;)

MedicineMan
04-05-2005, 01:35
we romanticize the American Indian of old but in reality he/she was a barbarian on the same level of modern day Arabs, when you think of the Arabs what have they done since the pyramids (and someone probably showed them how to build them) except kill kill train their kids to kill, hate hate and hate some more.........think i blowing smoke? go to one of the remote eskimo villages in northern canada and look at the garbage-not tourist garbage but eskimo garbage, they still havent gotten the concept of trash bag or trash can

Caleb
04-05-2005, 01:52
Harp Ferry has a lot of 'large canvass' grafitti, some of it dating back 100 years. The faded MENNEN advertisment on the MD. Height rocks come to mind. More recent additions of grafitti scrawl are to be found all over the rocks and heights. Jeff Rock hasn't been immune from these attentions either. It's been spray painted before and over the years name carvers have turned it into a regular alphabet tableau. So the kids probably thought they were carrying on a time honored tradition of claiming ownership, though in this case they distinguished themselves additionally by being stupid enough to get caught.

I fall in with the Lone Wolf school of thought about the cultural inevitability of certain things, grafitti being one of them.

Caleb
04-05-2005, 02:16
we romanticize the American Indian of old but in reality he/she was a barbarian on the same level of modern day Arabs, when you think of the Arabs what have they done since the pyramids (and someone probably showed them how to build them) except kill kill train their kids to kill, hate hate and hate some more.........think i blowing smoke? go to one of the remote eskimo villages in northern canada and look at the garbage-not tourist garbage but eskimo garbage, they still havent gotten the concept of trash bag or trash can
Maybe the reason Eskimo's are so casual about trash is because, unlike the white man, they don't produce enough of it to have required the invention of entire industries just to deal with it (and badly I might add). Who are the real barbarians?

As for Arabs, next time you count the rear hooves on your favorite goat, don't forget to to thank the folks who saved mathematics from the dark ages.

I don't even know where to begin with the 'hate' part of your rant, so I won't even try.

Skeemer
04-05-2005, 09:18
MedicineMan, please learn more about history. Start with the PBS series "The Way West." It is not fiction. It documents how the white man conquered the western frontier from 1845 through 1899.

The white man drove the American Indian off their lands, herded them onto reservations; then when we wanted the reservatin land back, we broke the treaties. We didn't quit until we eliminated them (as a threat) and their main food source, the buffalo. All they wanted was to be left alone. Our ancestors slaughtered eveyone in their path, including innocent women and children. They called in "manifest destiny."

We're so proud to be Americans, land of the free...home of the brave. Well, it was their land...they were here first. We weren't any better than ancient conquerors like Alexander the Great, Atta the Hun, Hitler, anyone who conquered new territory by force.

I for one am so ashamed, I am seriously considering leaving my inheritance to them.

hikerjohnd
04-05-2005, 09:44
If indians had spray paint 10,000 years ago they woulda used it to graffiti canyon walls and such.
Actually Wolf is correct. I won't have time to provide you with links and such, but there are several examples of graffiti by native populations, not only here but all over the world!

BlackCloud
04-05-2005, 12:18
We're so proud to be Americans, land of the free...home of the brave. Well, it was their land...they were here first. We weren't any better than ancient conquerors like Alexander the Great, Atta the Hun, Hitler, anyone who conquered new territory by force.

I for one am so ashamed, I am seriously considering leaving my inheritance to them.Since you're so ashamed, feel free to leave at your earliest opportunity. As for leaving your inheritance: why wait, those poor people need it now, not when you're done using it. Talk is cheap - blow it elsewhere...........

Lone Wolf
04-05-2005, 12:29
They've got a bunch of casinos. What more do they want?

BlackCloud
04-05-2005, 15:26
They've got a bunch of casinos. What more do they want?
That's about the most of it.

Skeemer
04-05-2005, 17:21
...our democracy isn't perfect and there are many citizens who I admire, honor and respect...it's just not the murderers...the self-serving, lying xssholes that I have a problem with. I remain ashamed of what we did to the American Indian with no apologies for saying so to people such as yourself. You say "talk is cheap" but that works both ways...look at yourself.

FFTorched
04-05-2005, 18:29
Human nature makes us want to immortalize ourselves through some act, so we carve things into trees or anything else we can find. Spray painting is just another form of that. Anthropologists and archiologists love that stuff if it's over a hundred years old. It tells them what the hell was important to us, and what was going on in history. Now with our advancements in technology most importantly what I feel is one of the greatest inventions of all time; the printing press we leave our marks in other ways. When I'm hiking I like to feel like I'm experiencing something unique that few have seen before me, this not being very true with 99% of it, but perception is how we skew the truth. Now we don't have time nor the money to put a ranger at every rockface in the United States and I would be very annoyed to fund such an endevour by the park service. Now as for the Native Americans and their trash, what you should realize is that their trash was all natural. They made everything from nature, and most of it was biodegradible, except things like pottery but it wasn't hurting anything, not giving off toxic gases or poisoning the water. Now if anthropologically it's important to know "Jack + Diane 4EVER '02" but that's for later generations to decide. If you get caught doing it you get what you deserve, but we were all kids and like me some still are, and did likewise stuff. We just have to educate the younger generation better, introduce them to the outdoors so like use they grow to love and respect it. Just my two cents.

bailcor
04-05-2005, 19:03
Lone Wolf 46 - Willey 24. Lone Wolf knows that we have had 12 ice ages in the last million years, and the next one will wipe out all graffiti.

lumpy
04-06-2005, 00:53
Trails of Tears.

BlackCloud
04-06-2005, 10:18
[QUOTE=SkeemerYou say "talk is cheap" but that works both ways...look at yourself.[/QUOTE]
Great comeback........

Nearly Normal
04-06-2005, 13:35
Thw ATN has a good story on this.
The quick version is a federal grand jury indicted 3 guys between the ages of 18 and 22 (they give the names) for varying felony counts. 2 of the guys face up to 5 years and a 500,000 in fines. The other faces up to 5 years and 125,000.
Jefferson Rock was cordoned off for almost 2 months. Much of the paint has been removed and only a "pink" tint remains except in the crevices.
The incident happened Christmas week and the young "men" were charged late January.
As the weather improves, so will the restoration.

I think they should pay all cost for police time, court time, cleaning cost including man hours, and everything related costing taxpayers or private donated work. Even a little chain gang training with a sling blade might improve there attitude toward screwing up. How about trail maintenance for a year?

Unless of course they find out the "men" have ADD or some such problem. Then they should be allowed to go free. Placed in a special "learning" school that teaches these poor fellows how to be better persons, even paying them for there time there.
NOT............................................... .................................................. .!

pete

Rocks 'n Roots
04-06-2005, 22:18
I disagree with governments slowly trying to foist the total cost of crimes onto the perpetrators. It's really a way of justifying inflation and impossible costs. The boys did something that adolsecents have been doing for years without having the western equivalent of "caning" done to them.


If this were the standard the US would be bankrupt paying off environmental impacts...

Caleb
04-07-2005, 01:24
I have to admit I'm not too fond of the name 'Jefferson Rock'. That rock had value long before Jefferson's singular visit. It was perfect. But now, as 'Jefferson's Rock', the rock is degraded by implication of ownership. It's a touchy matter of convenience (how would 'the Rock that Jefferson visited' sound?) but it also reflects, I think, the bad habit in Westerners to bend the earth our will and see value almost exclusively in our own terms. Other cultures pointedly DO NOT name natural objects after themselves, or to the excess that we do. I prefer Denali over McKinley, Chomulugma over Everest, etc. If I had it my way only human-made structures would get human designations.

I wonder if something along the lines of this sensibility was at the (stupid) root of the grafitti effort? who gave that rock to Jeff anyway?

lobster
04-07-2005, 11:45
Is it George Jefferson's or Jefferson Davis' rock?

hikerjohnd
04-07-2005, 13:17
I disagree with governments slowly trying to foist the total cost of crimes onto the perpetrators. It's really a way of justifying inflation and impossible costs. The boys did something that adolsecents have been doing for years without having the western equivalent of "caning" done to them.
So the innocent taxpayer should foot the bill??????? I think NOT! If the individuals are caught, then they should absolutely be ordered to pay for the cost to clean-up the damage they caused. This is not kids putting graffiti on a wall, it was the defacement of a historic landmark. Yes, boys will be boys, but there are consequences and repercussions for actions. These are not boys or adolescents, they are adults and solely responsible for their actions.

lobster
04-07-2005, 14:14
Agreed, but the reality is they never will have the money to pay for the cleanup!

Jack Tarlin
04-07-2005, 14:15
1. The rock is named for Thomas Jefferson, who described the view there (of the confluence of the Potomac and Shenandoah Rivers) as being worth a trip across the Atlantic. Kind of an over-statement, but it's still a very nice view.

2. And Rocks, you astound me! Every other post of yours condemns
someone here for not caring enough about the Trail....you frequently use
the term "contempt" when describing how some of us feel about caring,
protecting, and safeguarding the Trail. And now you feel that folks who
vandalize or trash the Trail are merely guilty of an adolescent prank.
What's up with that? Anyway, the next time you prattle on about folks
not really caring about the Trail, we'll all remember the day that you said
that malicious vandalism on the Trail wasn't that big a deal and that the
perpetrators haven't really done anything wrong. In other words, the next
time you prattle on about who cares for the Trail and who doesn't, we'll
do what we generally do with your comments here: Ignore them. Geez,
I'm starting to wonder.......back in the day, Rocks, when you did all that
Trail maintenace that you've mentioned, which were you better at
wielding.......a pickaxe or a can of spray paint?

Rocks 'n Roots
04-09-2005, 01:27
Jack:

Too much talk, too little response to what was said.

Nobody responded to my point about governments heaping total costs on violators in order to alleviate increasing costs (and even to make money). Believe it or not, taxpayers have been footing these things for years. If that's the name of the game fairness should dictate allowing the violators to fix the damage they caused.

If the total cost of the US's pollution in the world were charged to us we would be bankrupted trying to pay-off global warming damage...

Mountain Dew
04-09-2005, 01:48
lobster, "Is it George Jefferson's or Jefferson Davis' rock?" --- :clap George Jefferson owned a cleaners on an 80's TV show ! hahahaa " Moving on up...to the top..... to a deluxe apartment in the sky" or so the song to the show went. :sun

Nightwalker
04-09-2005, 05:30
WOW, good answer L. Wolf. I'm loosing more and more respect for you with every new post you add. So are you saying that because they also had fire and guns it was ok for the colonists to attack and pillage indian camps. I mean come on L. Wolf think about some things before you say them.
Hey Willy! Don't let the Wolf puppy get to you. He's a tweaker, born and bred. I used to let him make me mad enough to chew ten-penny nails. Then a funny thing happened and I met the buzzard at a hiker gathering. Good people. Real hiker (not just internet! And no, I'm not talking about you :D). He just likes to stir the pot, that's all. Read a few of his posts and you'll see that he's a friendly wolf unless you're slammin' the Corps or trying to take his bike or something. :datz

Nightwalker
04-09-2005, 05:37
Just misguided youth that need did'nt get enough kicks from their video games I guess. That's why I always admire the children hiking with ther parents on the AT...really says something.
Last week I saw a dad with five of his own young kids. The oldest was maybe ten or so. The weatherman called for 53 and partly cloudy. What we got was horizontal snow for a few hours, and high 20s with wind in the 30s.

This guy was cool and calm in a tough situation. He never lost it or screamed and yelled, and he got all of his kids warm and fed and down in the shelter FAST. They also compressed down and took up three shelter spaces between the five kids and the dad.

You won't hear about those kids shooting up their school. Not with that kind of example.

orangebug
04-09-2005, 07:41
2. And Rocks, you astound me! Every other post of yours condemns
someone here for not caring enough about the Trail....you frequently use
the term "contempt" when describing how some of us feel about caring,
protecting, and safeguarding the Trail. And now you feel that folks who
vandalize or trash the Trail are merely guilty of an adolescent prank.
What's up with that? ...Jack, Jack, Jack.

How quickly we forget. This is the guy who contended that felony arson was justified as RnR could channel that it derived from some whacked out environmental agenda.

:datz

Jack Tarlin
04-09-2005, 08:49
OB--

He's also the guy who lectured us on urban sprawl and reckless development....and then gave us the heads-up on the great food selection at Wal-Mart....and he did this all on the same day!

Oh, and Rocks, the reason nobody bothered to directly respond to one of your comments is because like so many of your other posts here, it didn't make any sense. By the way, Rocks, if you don't think perpetrators should bear the costs of their actions, then who should?

As for the guys who defaced Jefferson Rocks, caning the bejayzus out of them is too mild, in my opinion. But it'd be a start.

Rocks 'n Roots
04-09-2005, 23:27
Let's see. What a surprise. Jack spins a personal smear while completely avoiding the point about saddling violators with total costs...

orangebug
04-10-2005, 08:24
Chortle.

You know, this isn't supposed to be a humor thread. :clap

Jack Tarlin
04-10-2005, 09:00
Rocks, once again (surprise!) you miss the point.

All I'm proposing is prosecuting these guys to the fullest extent of the law, and saddling THEM with the costs of their action. You seem to think this is cruel and unusual punishment. I don't. You also seem to think this is an adolescent game, even tho the guys in question were grown men between
18 and 22. As adults, these guys should be held responsible for their behavior, tho you seem to think otherwise.


I hope these guys get fined heavily and perhaps see some jail time; I further hope that their prosecution gets a lot of press so that future idiots who hear about this are deterred from similar acts.

Why any rational person would object to this being done is a mystery to me.

For someone one spends nearly all of his time claiming to be one of the few true defenders of the Trail, your actual position when the Trail is attacked and marred is odd, to say the least. If you don't actually believe in defending the Trail, you should stop blathering about it. Here's a singular example of folks getting caught vandalizing your allegedly beloved Trail.....and you think they should walk. This is defending and honoring the Trail?

Hardly.

Skyline
04-10-2005, 09:23
Let's see. What a surprise. Jack spins a personal smear while completely avoiding the point about saddling violators with total costs...

I still don't understand what is wrong with the perpetrators of a crime making full restitution to the victims.

Whether it's a thief who steals your TV set, the CEO of Enron wiping out your life savings, or vandals creating ugly graffiti we can easily identify both the perp and the victim(s). It shouldn't be difficult, if the crime is proven beyond reasonable doubt, to attach a financial and/or other value to the damage done. Who besides the perp should be assesssed the cost of restitution?

In the case of the adults who intentionally defaced Jefferson Rock, the costs of restoration are likely to exceed the criminals' ability to pay in one lump sum. So, you slap a lien on 'em and they pay a percentage of their income until it's paid off. You garnish a percentage of their paychecks if necessary. You make them report to a probation officer after they serve any jail time, and produce records of all income on a timely basis. That it may take them most of their lifetimes to pay back the debt is not something the rest of us should weep about. It's fair, and serves as a real world example to others who may be thinking of carving or spray painting.

If part of the sentence a judge hands these fine folks involves physical labor to clean up this graffiti (or more likely other graffiti at less historic sites), that would be great too.

I also do not understand the value system that some people in this--and other threads involving graffiti--have that condones the intentional defacing of property that does not belong to them and them alone. To laugh it off as "a rite of passage," "historical or archaeological," or "boys will be boys" shows a lack of maturity and a lack of respect toward other folks' property. Even when that property is in the control of a public entity--as with Jefferson Rock, AT shelters, highway or trail signage, or trees in a forest. When they wake up one day and their cars, trucks, trailers, homes, etc. have become the latest depository for ugly graffiti we'll see how "innocent" these crimes are to them, then.

Skyline
07-27-2005, 14:28
IMHO the perps got off easy. In today's Northern Virginia Daily, it was reported that the sentences were handed down Tuesday 7/26 in Martinsburg WV US District Court. Here are the details:

Robert and Steven Hopkins (21 and 19, respectively) each received three years' probation, were ordered to perform 250 hours of community service at Harpers Ferry NHP, and each pay $3,644.77 in restitution. A third person, Nicholas Vlachos (no age given), received six months' probation, 80 hours service, and $500 in restitution. All three pled guilty in March.

Most of the red paint has been removed, and HFNHP officials say rain should eventually wash away the remaining specks.

BlackCloud
07-27-2005, 14:35
A third person, Nicholas Vlachos (no age given), received six months' probation, 80 hours service, and $500 in restitution. All three pled guilty in March.
In greek, the term Vlachos [Vla-hoes], spelled identically, refers to an uneducated man from a rural area; in essence, a redneck.

Skyline
07-28-2005, 14:08
From the Thursday, 7/28 NPS "Morning Report":



Harpers Ferry National Historical Park (WV)
Sentencing in Jefferson Rock Vandalism Case



On July 26th, the three men found guilty of vandalizing Jefferson Rock were sentenced in federal district court in Martinsburg, West Virginia. Park employees found the historic rock covered in bright red paint when they came to work on December 23, 2004. The sentences were as follows:


Robert O. Hopkins, 20, was sentenced to three years probation, restitution to Harpers Ferry NHP in the amount of $3,644.74, and 250 hours of community service for damage to government property.


Steven N Hopkins, 19, was sentenced to three years probation, restitution to Harpers Ferry NHP in the amount of $3,644.74, and 250 hours of community service for damage to government property.


Nicholas B. Vlachos, 23, was sentenced to six months probation, 80 hours of community service, and $500 in restitution for accessory after the fact.


The restitution covered what the park had to pay for the restoration of the rock back to its original state. The judge indicated that he would have had the defendants also pay the government back for the law enforcement costs if he felt that they had the means to do so. The entire case cost the park over $14,000.


The issuance of the sentences also made it possible for the park to provide additional information on how swiftly the three men were identified and confessed to their crime. In the early morning hours of December 23, 2004, a Harpers Ferry police officer caught the suspects literally “red handed.” Officer Brian Dolan stopped a car for speeding on residential streets. The occupants of the car had red hands and their pants and shoes had red paint spotted and smeared on them. Unable to associate them with a crime, he identified all three and released them. In the morning, when the damage was discovered in the park, rangers had the names of the suspects and an in-car video from Dolan’s patrol car. Harpers Ferry rangers were able to obtain search warrants for the suspects’ car and residence. With the assistance of C&O Canal rangers, the warrants were successfully executed and confessions were obtained in subsequent interviews. Less than 24 hours after the crime was committed, the case was very nearly closed. A juvenile who was with the three men was also prosecuted in the county court system.
[Submitted by Jennifer Flynn, Chief Ranger]

dream
07-28-2005, 18:45
we romanticize the American Indian of old but in reality he/she was a barbarian on the same level of modern day Arabs, when you think of the Arabs what have they done since the pyramids (and someone probably showed them how to build them) except kill kill train their kids to kill, hate hate and hate some more.........think i blowing smoke? go to one of the remote eskimo villages in northern canada and look at the garbage-not tourist garbage but eskimo garbage, they still havent gotten the concept of trash bag or trash canWhoa WHoa Whoa! I am In Iraq right now, I have never been to an eskimo (I believe I should be saying native or perhaps native american)village. Comparing the two this way is ridiculous. I am not the one to throw out the PC flag but you sir have certainly crossed a definite line.

Ridge
07-29-2005, 01:42
From the figures (fines and actual cost) citizens will end up picking up roughly half $7000 of the total cost of the offense. I would like to have the total cost covered by the criminals, but I'm also thankful these guys where even caught. Arson, graffiti, and litter is an all out attack on nature and to those of us who do "givadam".

TOW
07-29-2005, 05:31
In greek, the term Vlachos [Vla-hoes], spelled identically, refers to an uneducated man from a rural area; in essence, a redneck.i know plenty of rednecks that are very well educated....

BlackCloud
07-29-2005, 10:11
i know plenty of rednecks that are very well educated....Those associates of yours for whom you speak are something other then rednecks....

From Dictionary.com:
red·neck http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dredneck) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (rhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gifdhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gifkhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gif)
n. Offensive Slang

Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class, especially in the southern United States.
A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.

orangebug
07-29-2005, 10:14
Those associates of yours for whom you speak are something other then rednecks........
A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.[/list]There are plenty of well educated rednecks by that definition.

SGT Rock
07-29-2005, 10:26
I prefer the Foxworthy definition:


"My definition of being a redneck has always been 'a glorious absence of sophistication' or in simpler terms — it is an attitude. Geographic, racial or economic grounds do not bind being a redneck,"

BlackCloud
07-29-2005, 11:34
I prefer the Foxworthy definition:
I concur.......

Patrickjd9
07-29-2005, 19:25
Agreed, but the reality is they never will have the money to pay for the cleanup! They're young. They can make payments with interest over 30 years.

weary
07-29-2005, 21:13
There are plenty of well educated rednecks by that definition.
I doubt it. They may have attended good schools. Some may have graduated from same. But that doesn't make them educated. Our President attended and graduated from a good school. I have yet to see signs that he is educated.

Weary

Jack Tarlin
07-30-2005, 11:45
Right, Weary, our President has degrees from Harvard and Yale but in your eyes, he's not educated. Teddy Kennedy, who I assume you admire greatly, also has a Harvard degree....of course, he was thrown out of that institution for cheating but they still gave him a degree. In your eyes, was HE properly educated? Bill and Hillary Clinton both attended law school at Yale; this presumably involved taking mandatory courses in ethics. Do you think THEY were properly educated or benefitted from these classes? Their subsequent histories would leave this open to speculation.

You're right....a degree from a good school doesn't necessarily mean that the person got much out of the time they spent there, but you could at least be fair and open-minded about it.

justusryans
07-30-2005, 17:59
They are polititians. Professional liars and thieves. All who use positions of trust for their own personal gain or the personal gain of their friends and cronies. A good education does not equal a moral man. I have as much respect for them as I have for a pedophile. none!

Skyline
07-30-2005, 18:31
You're right....a degree from a good school doesn't necessarily mean that the person got much out of the time they spent there, but you could at least be fair and open-minded about it.

I prefer "fair and open-minded" to Fox News' "fair and balanced."