PDA

View Full Version : Possible big snowstorm wk of 1/24/11



Mrs Baggins
01-22-2011, 08:38
http://www.accuweather.com/blogs/news/story/44753/next-weeks-snowstorm-is-a-big.asp

This big storm could track any number of ways, but just in case you're starting out next week keep your eyes on this one.....the worst of it could track straight up the Appalachians from north GA onward. Check out the forecast map for where the heaviest snowfall could be.

fehchet
01-22-2011, 09:01
We have 18 inches on the ground and are contemplating firing up the tractor or the snow blower. Big snow this winter for Maine. Great for skiing and other outdoor winter activities. Supposed to have a high of 4F/-16C tomorrow. Guess I better get that snow blower going.

mweinstone
01-22-2011, 09:02
mrs baggins thank you. this is the kind of storm we can actually fear with reason. usually our meterorologists freak out for money and fame. this is a case of actuall real fearfull worry. thats because this is the perfect storm. i want everyone to stop and think hard about your starting a thruhike untill this passes. its a killer. i dont want to loose any of you.10k? stay out of the mountains after wednesday. pirate? dont let folks leave mountain crossings after wed. lwolf? have the chains on the ambulance and get a plowtruck to ride out front. HiKen2011? keep warm and safe and stock up on fuel. serial? pull jill close and the dog too. tow? put on your insulated crocs. pawpaw? get inside your old and brittle and break in cold like this.pacrat, stay off the roads. pat and vicky? be prepared to heat the doyal with the bodys of drunken sailors.stack them like corded wood and make a shelter of them and get inside. mrs baggins will be on her snowmobile looking for survivors after the storm so hang in there she'll find you.

Carbo
01-22-2011, 09:06
Haven't seen the ground here in NJ since Dec 26, which is already the worst I can remember in many years. Can't imagine another dump coming next week!

walkin' wally
01-22-2011, 10:05
We have 18 inches on the ground and are contemplating firing up the tractor or the snow blower. Big snow this winter for Maine. Great for skiing and other outdoor winter activities. Supposed to have a high of 4F/-16C tomorrow. Guess I better get that snow blower going.

So how is Siesta Key looking now?:sun We may be heading to -20F soon.:D

wornoutboots
01-22-2011, 10:11
-2 here in Northern KY this morning with @ 8" of fresh snow, they're calling for more snow this Monay

Lone Wolf
01-22-2011, 10:14
well it is winter. why all the hoopla?

tawa
01-22-2011, 10:17
You just gotta love all this global warming!! lol

Namaste
01-22-2011, 10:19
Oh yeah, winter it is.....love the snow. I'm taking advantage of the great snow and heading out on my cross-country skis. No complaining here :)

Lone Wolf
01-22-2011, 10:20
global warming...

....doesn't exist

Mrs Baggins
01-22-2011, 10:20
Haven't seen the ground here in NJ since Dec 26, which is already the worst I can remember in many years. Can't imagine another dump coming next week!

Unfortunately, I can imagine it. We had 3 big blizzards last year, one after the other and ended up with 10' high drifts and 2 lane roads with barely one plowed lane....for weeks. So far we've been escaping the worst of the last couple of storms but we may not this time. I think many attempting their first thru know there could be snow in the Smokies, but honestly don't expect it in Georgia. That's evidenced by the number of people who come on this forum to ask if they'll need any cold weather gear. If they're geared up for this, then God bless 'em and have a grand adventure.....but if they're not.......:eek:

walkin' wally
01-22-2011, 11:20
Oh yeah, winter it is.....love the snow. I'm taking advantage of the great snow and heading out on my cross-country skis. No complaining here :)

Cross country skiing for me too.:)

Slo-go'en
01-22-2011, 11:33
well it is winter. why all the hoopla?

Because after 10 or 15 years of pretty mild winters, especially down south, all of a sudden we have record cold and snow in places which didn't often get it in the past. Plus, just like the media, we all like to hype a good storm :rolleyes:

Gray Blazer
01-22-2011, 11:34
....doesn't exist

Yes it does. It is caused by the sun, not Al Goreacle.

Blissful
01-22-2011, 12:45
Been nothing here so far. So much for the robin I saw a few weeks ago. He must've been headin' south. :(

CinciJP
01-22-2011, 19:09
You just gotta love all this global warming!! lol

I love the response I get when I say that these days ... "It's climate change!" Yeah, every second the climate's changing. :-?

Mrs Baggins
01-22-2011, 19:47
I love the response I get when I say that these days ... "It's climate change!" Yeah, every second the climate's changing. :-?

In the Death Valley Visitors Center they have displays about how the earth has changed. There's an exhibit explaining that that area alone has gone from desert to ice to ocean and back to desert FOUR TIMES that can be traced. So which one of those was "normal"?? And how exactly did man (eg lawnmowers, cars, etc) cause that??? Idiots. It's all in cycles. And anytime some weather person says "in recorded history" be advised that they only have written weather records back to the mid 1800's. Those that swallow the Algore inspired crap rabidly believe that means all history for all time to the creation of the earth. Get.over.it. The earth is far more powerful than man and it can and it will heal itself thru weather cycles. How extraordinarily arrogant and self righteous to believe that man can control it.

rainmaker
01-22-2011, 20:15
....doesn't exist

in your mind...

rainmaker
01-22-2011, 20:31
In the Death Valley Visitors Center they have displays about how the earth has changed. There's an exhibit explaining that that area alone has gone from desert to ice to ocean and back to desert FOUR TIMES that can be traced. So which one of those was "normal"?? And how exactly did man (eg lawnmowers, cars, etc) cause that??? Idiots. It's all in cycles. And anytime some weather person says "in recorded history" be advised that they only have written weather records back to the mid 1800's. Those that swallow the Algore inspired crap rabidly believe that means all history for all time to the creation of the earth. Get.over.it. The earth is far more powerful than man and it can and it will heal itself thru weather cycles. How extraordinarily arrogant and self righteous to believe that man can control it.

Whether or not man can control and hopefully stop or reverse global warming is questionable; whether or not man through industrialization and increased carbon dioxide emmissions caused it is generally accepted as fact by the scientific community, and that ain't crap.

Mrs Baggins
01-22-2011, 20:49
Whether or not man can control and hopefully stop or reverse global warming is questionable; whether or not man through industrialization and increased carbon dioxide emmissions caused it is generally accepted as fact by the scientific community, and that ain't crap.

Yeah, actually it is crap. "Generally accepted" does not mean real climatologists accept it. They don't. Algore can't claim any real climatologists among his "scientists". It's about control and regulation, and how much money the whack jobs can make off of carbon credits, nothing more. I will not use those hideous mercury filled light bulbs, I will not be terrorized into "recycling" when recycling more often than not cost more and uses more energy than just tossing it and buying new (another lie the enviros don't want anyone to know). Man cannot stop or reverse ANY climatological cycle of the earth - how extremely arrogant to believe otherwise. Every human who lived thru every climate change, from ice age to desert and back again, believed they were seeing the end of the world. They were seeing the end of life as they knew it but it was NOT the end of the world and to believe that the end of life as you know it is the same as the end of the world is to believe that you are some kind of god. You are not. You will adapt or you will die. Just like every generation from time immemorial. But the earth will go on. Humans are not "the earth" and they need to get over thinking so.

hobbs
01-22-2011, 21:06
Whether or not man can control and hopefully stop or reverse global warming is questionable; whether or not man through industrialization and increased carbon dioxide emmissions caused it is generally accepted as fact by the scientific community, and that ain't crap.
They just released an article that the DATA and Procedures they were useing on Global Warming were and are BUNK! Thats the Whole scientific community saying its BS!!! Yes Carbon admission do cause pollution and other issues, But they do not change the whole worlds Climatic cycle..But MYO is we need to clean up our act anyway...:D

rainmaker
01-22-2011, 21:10
Yeah, actually it is crap. "Generally accepted" does not mean real climatologists accept it. They don't. Algore can't claim any real climatologists among his "scientists". It's about control and regulation, and how much money the whack jobs can make off of carbon credits, nothing more. I will not use those hideous mercury filled light bulbs, I will not be terrorized into "recycling" when recycling more often than not cost more and uses more energy than just tossing it and buying new (another lie the enviros don't want anyone to know). Man cannot stop or reverse ANY climatological cycle of the earth - how extremely arrogant to believe otherwise. Every human who lived thru every climate change, from ice age to desert and back again, believed they were seeing the end of the world. They were seeing the end of life as they knew it but it was NOT the end of the world and to believe that the end of life as you know it is the same as the end of the world is to believe that you are some kind of god. You are not. You will adapt or you will die. Just like every generation from time immemorial. But the earth will go on. Humans are not "the earth" and they need to get over thinking so.

You have your firmly held opinions and I have mine, go in peace.

weary
01-22-2011, 22:12
You just gotta love all this global warming!! lol
Two totally different issues. As I remember we had strange snow patterns early on last year. Yet, overall those who measure these things have concluded that 2010 is in a close tie for the warmest year since records began, more than a century ago.

weary
01-22-2011, 22:23
Yeah, actually it is crap. "Generally accepted" does not mean real climatologists accept it. They don't. Algore can't claim any real climatologists among his "scientists". It's about control and regulation, and how much money the whack jobs can make off of carbon credits, nothing more. I will not use those hideous mercury filled light bulbs, I will not be terrorized into "recycling" when recycling more often than not cost more and uses more energy than just tossing it and buying new (another lie the enviros don't want anyone to know). Man cannot stop or reverse ANY climatological cycle of the earth - how extremely arrogant to believe otherwise. Every human who lived thru every climate change, from ice age to desert and back again, believed they were seeing the end of the world. They were seeing the end of life as they knew it but it was NOT the end of the world and to believe that the end of life as you know it is the same as the end of the world is to believe that you are some kind of god. You are not. You will adapt or you will die. Just like every generation from time immemorial. But the earth will go on. Humans are not "the earth" and they need to get over thinking so.
Man can, however, burn billion year old fossil carbon (oil and coal), thus increasing the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Scientists have been pretty sure that natural CO2 and other gases in the atmosphere is what keeps the earth from being mostly ice covered. When someone shows me why if some CO2 keeps the earth warm, more CO2 won't make us warmer, I may doubt the fact of man-induced global warming. Until then I'll trust scientists more than I trust Mrs. Baggins.

mweinstone
01-22-2011, 22:35
when billions of dollars change hands arguing over the temperature of the earth and its patterns over epocs and ages and times and periods,......that means were all gonna run out of stuff to argue over soon. all that argueing is gonna make folks want a real fight. maby the earth heats up and down to make men fight over wheather its happening or not untill they fight really bad and reduce populatin thru war so the feild can lay fallow a bit so to say. maby?

Skidsteer
01-22-2011, 22:35
Until then I'll trust scientists more than I trust Mrs. Baggins.

I'll take door number three.

Tinker
01-22-2011, 22:36
http://www.accuweather.com/blogs/news/story/44753/next-weeks-snowstorm-is-a-big.asp

This big storm could track any number of ways, but just in case you're starting out next week keep your eyes on this one.....the worst of it could track straight up the Appalachians from north GA onward. Check out the forecast map for where the heaviest snowfall could be.

Cool. For once we might have enough (possibly too much) snow for the Feb. 4-6 cross country instruction trip with the AMC at Sargent Center in New Hampshire. I've been doing this for 15 years. We've had ice storms, rain storms, bare ground (had to reschedule). New England - a land of wonder (like, "Gee, I wonder why people like living here year-round";)).
Registration for the above trip is closed for the upcoming one, but we have it every year, so, everyone's invited to the next one! :)

mweinstone
01-22-2011, 22:45
enough blather. we need a plan. im assuming the earth will be destroyed by this snowstorm. whos got ideas? obviosly we need to draw lots for the available beds in the space station. then theirs the underground labs like los alamos and the others. some of them can be exspected to survive. the west will be destroyed so lets save as much of the east as we can and not worrry about the midwest too much. nobody lives there. we can save it if we have time and space. so whos got shotgun in the shuttel? no one? fine. i call shotgun in the shuttle. we should all meet monday morning with our luggage.

Tinker
01-22-2011, 22:49
Matty, we're all going to die sometime.
Yet another good reason to make more friends than enemies. :)

4eyedbuzzard
01-22-2011, 23:01
I'll take door number three.
Don't do it. The donkeyzonk is always behind door #3.
Go for Monte's Cookie Jar.

pattydivins
01-22-2011, 23:11
Time to go skiing, YEAAAAAAH EAST COST POWDER!!!!11

MoodyBluer
01-22-2011, 23:38
well it is winter. why all the hoopla?

what might not be hoopla in VA is freakin' armageddon here in the ATL...lived here all my life and every TV weatherman I can remember has gone absolutely apes**t over the possibility of getting 1" of snow or sleet...in all fairness 2 weeks ago ATL was sheets of impassable ice in many places (like I285) we just don't have salt spreaders here and all those folks who think we need an army of plows and salt trucks down here for a once every 10-15 year blizzard needs to have their heads examined.

Oh well, it's what makes the boredom of winter go by a little faster...

Driver8
01-22-2011, 23:39
You just gotta love all this global warming!! lol

Most of the climatologists expert in the subject predict greater intensity of storms - bigger blizzards, when they happen, likewise hurricanes, etc. Doubtless you're convinced now. ...

Tinker
01-22-2011, 23:50
Weather forecasting is theology for the agnostic. :D

TheChop
01-22-2011, 23:51
You just gotta love all this global warming!! lol

Holy crap I am tired of hearing this every time it snows. Extreme weather patterns are part and parcel of a rise in average global temperatures.

Driver8
01-22-2011, 23:54
Man cannot stop or reverse ANY climatological cycle of the earth - how extremely arrogant to believe otherwise.

Let's try this. If mankind were to set off all the nuclear weapons we have, do you accept, or not, that this would change our climate? You can man "cannot" stop or reverse "ANY" climatological cycle. Do you always speak in such absolutes, with such certitude? Are you so smart, so right about everything? Or do you just have special expertise in climatology? Care to share your credentials, your data set?

And does everyone who doesn't see things exactly as you do have to be an idiot, a crook or a whackjob? And have you ever been wrong or mistaken about something really important? Would you admit it if it were so?

I marvel at the following things about global warming denialists:

1) How right all of them are sure they are,

2) How angry they are about the topic and how little room there is for dissent or discussion, and

3) How consistently they personally attack those who don't toe the line, Soviet Russia style - mocking their names ("Algore"), calling them names (idiot, whackjob).

Veritable founts of wisdom and good will.

Tinker
01-23-2011, 00:15
I used to move among religious folks much more to the right of center, so to speak. We put down all the ideas of the "left wingers" just because they were "left wingers" and, most likely, aethists, or at least agnostics. Of course Global Warming was one of those "left wing God hating ideas".
I'm not so sure anymore.
Love means never having to say you're sorry, we've heard.
I say humility means never having to say I have all the answers.
My new social model might just be "look both ways before crossing others." ;)

Driver8
01-23-2011, 01:28
We put down all the ideas of the "left wingers" just because they were "left wingers" and, most likely, aethists, or at least agnostics. Of course Global Warming was one of those "left wing God hating ideas".

The asinine thing about global warming denialism is its practitioner's politicization of the issue. What the weather's doing is NOT political, and concern about CO2 and CH4 and other greenhouse gas emissions and their effects comes from scientists and their reports.

The fact that we need to reduce consumption of our primary sources of energy and shift to other sources does mean major economic and, therefore, political change. But the facts themselves, that we've massively increased CO2 and CH4 concentrations in our atmosphere in the past century or so, that observed atmospheric temperatures has increase steadily in that time, that glaciers and ice caps, world wide, are retreating and melting, among other fact, are, in themselves, not political at all.

It makes for a bit of pathetic political theater, wherein the denialists personally attack the credibility and motives of the great preponderance of climate experts in the world and of those who would rely on these scientists for, horrors, setting and informating policy relating to climate. The damn thing of it is that oil companies and other fossil-fuel sensitive concerns, in this country, have so much power and sway over politics and the news media that they are able to block a lot of the constructive change that needs to happen in this country, the sooner the better. Helluva mess.

Ol Mole
01-23-2011, 07:07
The fact that we need to reduce consumption of our primary sources of energy and shift to other sources does mean major economic and, therefore, political change. But the facts themselves, that we've massively increased CO2 and CH4 concentrations in our atmosphere in the past century or so, that observed atmospheric temperatures has increase steadily in that time, that glaciers and ice caps, world wide, are retreating and melting, among other fact, are, in themselves, not political at all.

There is a better coralation between the suns cycles than that of man's activity. Any sucessful attempt by man to rearrange the levels to effect the levels and balances of things that control the temp here on this planet can be undone quickly by a shift in the sun's activity.

Adaption to your environment is the key. That's what hikers do.

Happy trails.

Doc Mike
01-23-2011, 07:23
The earth temp has gotten colder and warmer in cycles as far back as the fossil record. We could blame the cave man and his fires for ending the second ice age but what eneded the first if not some natural occurence.
There is some pretty good evidence that this warming and previous warmings are due to an increase in the suns activity sun spots, solar flares etc. If the sun is like a furnace burning the available fuel and occaisional burning a hotter fuel wouldn't that affect the felt heat on this planet. For example if someone added a few drops unleaded gas in your alchy stove.
Looking back at history my prediction is the earth will get hotter for a while and then cooler then hotter then cooler etc...

Just my .02
Doc Mike

RGB
01-23-2011, 07:43
3) How consistently they personally attack those who don't toe the line, Soviet Russia style - mocking their names ("Algore"), calling them names (idiot, whackjob).

I was actually called a Marxist once because I said I try to walk everywhere rather than drive cause it's better for the environment. No surprise that the moron neither knew who Karl Marx was, nor what he did in history.

Also, how is this thread still here? Or is everyone just duking it out cause they know it'll be gone tomorrow?

Chenango
01-23-2011, 08:01
Time to go skiing, YEAAAAAAH EAST COST POWDER!!!!11

Or, snowshoeing!!

Toolshed
01-23-2011, 09:03
This weather is awesome!!! Only problem with this winter is not enough time to do everything..... Between Backcountry skiing, snowshoeing, Hosting sledding parties for our children on our hill and then of course snowmobiling. :D

Egads
01-23-2011, 09:12
Baggins, it's winter time. I don't know how old you are but haven't you experienced this before?

10-K
01-23-2011, 09:13
People believe what they want to believe.

Facts are secondary - first you have a belief, then you look around for information that makes what you believe "right".

Which is totally backwards...

10-K
01-23-2011, 09:19
No surprise that the moron neither knew who Karl Marx was, nor what he did in history.


I doubt very seriously that 5% of the population could read anything written by Karl Marx and comprehend it.

That says something about Karl Marx or the population - not sure which. :)

Given the inclination to let other people think for us this and turn everything into a 10 second sound byte that whips us into an emotional frenzy I'm not looking for much in the way of progress.

If I could only say one thing it would be, "Don't be a sheep."

Driver8
01-23-2011, 09:26
The earth temp has gotten colder and warmer in cycles as far back as the fossil record. ...

There is some pretty good evidence that this warming and previous warmings are due to an increase in the suns activity sun spots, solar flares etc. If the sun is like a furnace burning the available fuel and occaisional burning a hotter fuel wouldn't that affect the felt heat on this planet. For example if someone added a few drops unleaded gas in your alchy stove.

Doc:

The sun "burns" the same fuel, more or less, all the time. Hydrogen. Some helium and other elements undergo nuclear fusion along the way, as well, best as scientists can tell. That process, in itself, does not vary appreciably.



There is a better coralation between the suns cycles than that of man's activity. Any sucessful attempt by man t theo rearrange the levels to effect the levels and balances of things that control the temp here on this planet can be undone quickly by a shift in the sun's activity.

Ol Mole:

It's also possible that a supernova will happen nearby us and kill us all off, vaporizing our planet in short order. Does that call for a "don't worry, be happy" approach?

Both Doc and Mole:

Does it not concern you, at all, that we've increased the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere by over 1/3 in a century or so? Yes, that concentration has varied in the past, but not so fast as that.

Or that the temperatures measured by meteorologists and climatologists have so consistently, so quickly - relative to earth's very slow normal time cycles - gone up in the same time frame?

Does the world wide massive retreat and melting of ice caps and glaciers ring any alarm bells? Have you looked at the photos? Do you realize that ice shelves the size of New England states have collapsed and melted into the Antarctic Ocean since the 1990s? This stuff can all easily be found via Google search. You just have to open your mind to the obvious - what's staring you in the face.

The temperature increases we've observed in the past 100-125 years have happened in the past, according to the best available geological, biological and fossil evidence. It's just that they've happened on the scale of millenia, not decades.

Bottom line: we can do something about the problem. It involves reforestation of deforested areas - planting lots of trees - and shifting away, asap, from oil and coal and natural gas to solar, wind, water and nuclear power. That, on a world-wide level, would be adaptation, like hikers do. It would reduce our reliance on many unstable and violent countries - do I need to name them? - for oil and coal, etc.

PS: My credentials, since I asked for others'. Undergrad, I majored in environmental biology, which was interdisciplinary - biology, chemisty, geology (including meteorology and climatology) and chemical engineering. In law school I studied for a semester and wrote a long paper about constructive steps that can be taken internationally to solve the problem of excessive greenhouse gas emissions. I have continued to study these issues since graduating.

Driver8
01-23-2011, 09:30
This weather is awesome!!! Only problem with this winter is not enough time to do everything.....:D

Agreed! :)

Pedaling Fool
01-23-2011, 09:40
Doc:


PS: My credentials, since I asked for others'. Undergrad, I majored in environmental biology, which was interdisciplinary - biology, chemisty, geology (including meteorology and climatology) and chemical engineering. In law school I studied for a semester and wrote a long paper about constructive steps that can be taken internationally to solve the problem of excessive greenhouse gas emissions. I have continued to study these issues since graduating.
Oh crap, I guess he speaks the scientific truth :D

Driver8
01-23-2011, 10:13
Oh crap, I guess he speaks the scientific truth :D

Yessir, the one and only truth, and anyone who disagrees with me, in the slightest, is an idiot, a scoundrel and a fool. :rolleyes:

Driver8
01-23-2011, 10:18
People believe what they want to believe.

Facts are secondary - first you have a belief, then you look around for information that makes what you believe "right".

Which is totally backwards...

Yes, the opposite of the scientific method. Kinda like the old witch test - if she sinks, and dies, she's not a witch. Do we want to do that with the whole planet?

generoll
01-23-2011, 12:22
could you tell me what the CO2 levels were at the beginning of the 1900s as opposed to now? Can you explain nuclear powers role in increasing CO2 levels? got any numbers to give some oblective analysis to your scientific exposition?

mweinstone
01-23-2011, 12:38
i never graduated 10th grade and i got credentials.
i have a non driver id,a passport, a carry permit,a superfresh card, an acme card, a cvs card, a social security card, a contracters license, a library card, an ebt food benifits card, a dd214, a birth certificate, a rite aid card, an abbotts assist program card,a personal buissnes card,and a picture of my son.
i got credentials out the wazoo.

Driver8
01-23-2011, 12:46
could you tell me what the CO2 levels were at the beginning of the 1900s as opposed to now? Can you explain nuclear powers role in increasing CO2 levels? got any numbers to give some oblective analysis to your scientific exposition?

I'm glad you asked and happy to share some solid data.

Atmospheric concentrations of Carbon Dioxide:

1900 - 290 parts per million, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v247/n5439/abs/247273a0.html

2008 - 385 ppm, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090618143950.htm

The same article re: 2008 also states that the historic average CO2 concentration in the atmosphere over the past 2.1 million years was 280 ppm. 385 ppm is 37.5% higher than that long term average and 32.8% (about 1/3, as I stated in a prior post) higher than the 1900 figure.

Nuclear power plants do not generate or emit, in themselves, any CO2 or other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Mining and processing of the radioactive fuel materials usually does involve use of carbon-fuel-burning equipment, which does emit CO2. This need not be the case, of necessity, though, since such equipment can be powered by alternative means.

Driver8
01-23-2011, 12:51
There's also a lengthy article in Wikipedia about the retreat of glaciers which serves as a ready reference and a decent introduction to the topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850

Pedaling Fool
01-23-2011, 13:03
Driver8, since you speak the only scientific truth here and are the only one qualified. When will we all have to move to antarctica?

kolokolo
01-23-2011, 13:04
Back on the O.P.'s original topic: Anyone going out this week, make sure you are prepared and cautious. Don't let your ego cloud your judgement.

Driver8
01-23-2011, 13:05
Driver8, since you speak the only scientific truth here and are the only one qualified. When will we all have to move to antarctica?

You're not packing already? Better get with it!

Ender
01-23-2011, 13:31
Time out on this thread until you all learn to play nice. No running with scissors and all that.