Stoves on the AT - why?

[lebeda]

I read these forums and I am always puzzled by why people bring stoves on their thru hikers. Even the ultra-light ounce-counting folks would bring with them 10oz of stove and fuel. I have been backpacking since age 7 and never have carried a stove with me on any of my hikes (with the exception of Brooks Range in Alaska where in most places there just isn't anything around that would burn). Almost anywhere on the AT I can start a fire and boil a pot of water faster than with an alcohol stove. There really isn't a whole lot to it. Dig a small hole in suitable soil, set a pot over the hole keeping the pot handle between two rocks (at least as heavy as the full pot), and feed the fire. Keep the fire small. Water will boil in 5 min. When done, fill the whole with soil, spread leaves around, and nobody can tell you cooked there.

So I am wondering, why does almost everyone use stoves?

[ChinMusic]

Almost anywhere on the AT I can start a fire and boil a pot of water faster than with an alcohol stove.
If you are talking about having to make the alohol stove from scratch at camp I would agree.

Other than that, I call BS.

[Mrs Baggins]

Because finding dry burning material can be impossible sometimes?? Because they want to be absolutely sure of a hot drink/meal and not hope that they can find the right stuff to start a fire? Because they can??

[Spokes]

If you are talking about having to make the alohol stove from scratch at camp I would agree.

Other than that, I call BS.

1+

You beat me to it ChinMusic.

[Alpine Jack]

+2 on the BS.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I read these forums and I am always puzzled by why people bring stoves on their thru hikers. Even the ultra-light ounce-counting folks would bring with them 10oz of stove and fuel. I have been backpacking since age 7 and never have carried a stove with me on any of my hikes (with the exception of Brooks Range in Alaska where in most places there just isn't anything around that would burn). Almost anywhere on the AT I can start a fire and boil a pot of water faster than with an alcohol stove. There really isn't a whole lot to it. Dig a small hole in suitable soil, set a pot over the hole keeping the pot handle between two rocks (at least as heavy as the full pot), and feed the fire. Keep the fire small. Water will boil in 5 min. When done, fill the whole with soil, spread leaves around, and nobody can tell you cooked there.

So I am wondering, why does almost everyone use stoves?

1) Bans on open fires.
2) Bans / restrictions on open fires except in established fire rings.
3) Availability of dry fuel
4) Convenience

[Pommes]

I read these forums and I am always puzzled by why people bring stoves on their thru hikers. Even the ultra-light ounce-counting folks would bring with them 10oz of stove and fuel. I have been backpacking since age 7 and never have carried a stove with me on any of my hikes (with the exception of Brooks Range in Alaska where in most places there just isn't anything around that would burn). Almost anywhere on the AT I can start a fire and boil a pot of water faster than with an alcohol stove. There really isn't a whole lot to it. Dig a small hole in suitable soil, set a pot over the hole keeping the pot handle between two rocks (at least as heavy as the full pot), and feed the fire. Keep the fire small. Water will boil in 5 min. When done, fill the whole with soil, spread leaves around, and nobody can tell you cooked there.

So I am wondering, why does almost everyone use stoves?

Leave No Trace.

[fiddlehead]

On my 1st thru, my stove blew up (SVEA)
I ended up building fires for the next 600 miles or so.
I'll agree that on a perfect day, with no rain in the past few days or weeks, I can probably build a fire to boil water faster than an alcohol stove. I got very good at it.
But, most years, the AT won't have a week without rain, ANY part of your hike.
And when it's pouring down rain, and has been for 11 days straight (like it did in '95 in June), You will have to eat something besides cooked food.
Also, if you want to stay at shelters, dead wood is very hard to find sometimes.

But good luck in your quest. I'm sure you'll be an even better fire builder when you complete your hike.
Oh yeah, those dam fire bans. They can suck and most hikers won't start the woods on fire. But there are some a$$holes out there, and that is the reason for the bans IMO.

[Luddite]

Leave No Trace.

+1

Thats the biggest reason.

Plus, fires get your pots all sooty. And who wants to look for fire wood everytime they want a hot meal?

[Pommes]

Also if you do decide to start a fire during a fire ban someone will call the Warden on you. Even if your not in cell range i've seen them wait till they were and then call. As they should.

[lebeda]

Leave No Trace.

The trick is to keep the fire small - no larger than the size of the pot. A hole 4'' deep is enough. When all done and covered with leaves and debris, there is absolutely no trace left.

[Tinker]

I read these forums and I am always puzzled by why people bring stoves on their thru hikers. Even the ultra-light ounce-counting folks would bring with them 10oz of stove and fuel. I have been backpacking since age 7 and never have carried a stove with me on any of my hikes (with the exception of Brooks Range in Alaska where in most places there just isn't anything around that would burn). Almost anywhere on the AT I can start a fire and boil a pot of water faster than with an alcohol stove. There really isn't a whole lot to it. Dig a small hole in suitable soil, set a pot over the hole keeping the pot handle between two rocks (at least as heavy as the full pot), and feed the fire. Keep the fire small. Water will boil in 5 min. When done, fill the whole with soil, spread leaves around, and nobody can tell you cooked there.

So I am wondering, why does almost everyone use stoves?

So you haven't hiked the AT in Conn?
I guess you haven't seen the "No Fires Allowed" sign right on the Trail just south of Race Brook, you know, the one with the chainsaw marks all over it and the makeshift fire ring right at the foot of the tree it's nailed to?
I guess not. ;)
I think I smell a troll. :-?

[fiddlehead]

The trick is to keep the fire small - no larger than the size of the pot. A hole 4'' deep is enough. When all done and covered with leaves and debris, there is absolutely no trace left.

Now i sense a troll.
Covering your fire with leaves and debris.
Yeah right!

[RGB]

The trick is to keep the fire small - no larger than the size of the pot. A hole 4'' deep is enough. When all done and covered with leaves and debris, there is absolutely no trace left.

Unless you wait for it to burn out completely, and then broadcast the ashes, it is still considered a pollutant.

[lebeda]

Because finding dry burning material can be impossible sometimes??

You don't really need dry material. Tiny dead pine branches will easily burn when wet. Once you get those going, the slightly larger sticks will burn easily wet as well - the water evaporates very quickly once in the fire. A lot of people won't believe me - but try it out yourself. Prepare a small bundle of wood sticks of varying sizes from tiny to pencil wide. Dunk the whole bundle in a creek for a minute. Then use it for a fire. You'd be surprised how easily you can get the wood to burn.


Because they want to be absolutely sure of a hot drink/meal and not hope that they can find the right stuff to start a fire?
You may not find enough dry wood right by a shelter, but all it takes is going 50 yards away to collect enough suitable dead wood. You don't need much.


Because they can??
Well, I'll give you that. That's probably the only reason I can think of.

[lebeda]

Now i sense a troll.
Covering your fire with leaves and debris.
Yeah right!

Not a troll. I have been doing it this way for 25 years. I, of course, put out any hot embers with water. Then fill the hole with the dirt I dug out previously. Spread leaves around. No trace at all.

[Iceaxe]

The trick is to keep the fire small - no larger than the size of the pot. A hole 4'' deep is enough. When all done and covered with leaves and debris, there is absolutely no trace left.

The Trace is the hole you dug whether filled in or not.
Everyone has to bury their crap.. thats a neccesity.
Diggin holes to make fires is not a neccesity if you have a stove.
Actually i very much doubt even the most experienced woodsperson
could kindle a blaze and boil 2 cups of water faster than
a person with an alcohol stove could.
Consider the time you actually collect your wood, dig your hole, light
your tinder, and bring the water to boil.
Versus squirting an ounce of alcohol into a can stove and flicking your bic.

Anyhow, HYOH. If you wanna make fires more power to ya! ;)

[ChinMusic]

Now i sense a troll.
Covering your fire with leaves and debris.
Yeah right!
He pees on it first.

[mweinstone]

it is possable to find dry fuel in the wettest of woods. it is possible over the course of a day to assemble a "nest" in your pocket ready to light at any time without really stopping hiking to do it. it is possable to walk into camp and pull the nest from your pocket and boil water . and it is possable to become somewhat of an exspert quickdraw and do all this seamlessly and profincently in a time faster than one might open a pack and boil on a popcan. and you could outhike and out plan all fire bans and fuel sparse places. with alot of carful planning. and doing all this you could possably eat about as much hot food as a stove guy or gal hiker.there would be places you would eat cold food when you could have choosen to have a popcan. but it would have to be your chooice to be any fun. fun needs alot of room to operate. be sure to have fun.

[lebeda]

So you haven't hiked the AT in Conn?
I guess you haven't seen the "No Fires Allowed" sign right on the Trail just south of Race Brook, you know, the one with the chainsaw marks all over it and the makeshift fire ring right at the foot of the tree it's nailed to?
I guess not. ;)
I think I smell a troll. :-?

Actually I lived in CT for a number of years and hiked the AT there. There is no law on the books in CT that says "No Fires Allowed" on either the AT or any other trail. It is a rule promoted by non-profit organizations that has no legal standing. But that is a discussion for another thread.

Second, I have seen much more damage done by careless stove users than from a properly managed small cooking fire. The many burned tables and benches by shelters speak to that.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Not a troll. I have been doing it this way for 25 years. I, of course, put out any hot embers with water. Then fill the hole with the dirt I dug out previously. Spread leaves around. No trace at all.
Some 4 million people hike some part of the AT every year according to ATC. If only 1 million hike overnight and use your method, that's 1 million more fire scars every year. That's a big "trace", whether it's covered over for visual appeal or not. It's not just about one individual doing it, it's about diminishing the impact of everyone that uses the trail. To do so, everyone needs to cooperate and not make new fire sites, regardless of how small, and regardless of how minuscule their personal opinion of their impact is.

[Iceaxe]

it is possable to find dry fuel in the wettest of woods. it is possible over the course of a day to assemble a "nest" in your pocket ready to light at any time without really stopping hiking to do it. it is possable to walk into camp and pull the nest from your pocket and boil water . and it is possable to become somewhat of an exspert quickdraw and do all this seamlessly and profincently in a time faster than one might open a pack and boil on a popcan. and you could outhike and out plan all fire bans and fuel sparse places. with alot of carful planning. and doing all this you could possably eat about as much hot food as a stove guy or gal hiker.there would be places you would eat cold food when you could have choosen to have a popcan. but it would have to be your chooice to be any fun. fun needs alot of room to operate. be sure to have fun.

I really dig this guys posts!
You are like a poet/philosopher.. Good on ya man! :sun

[fiddlehead]

OK, maybe your not a troll. Sorry.
Like I said, I have tried almost every way out there: Here's a link (http://fiddleheadtravels.com/?s=stove+collection) to an article i wrote once.

I have since come to the realization that the best way (for me of course) is the pocket rocket. If I'm camping with friends, along with beer and steaks, it's fires everytime.
If i'm thru-hiking and want to be on the trail rather than in camp, it's butane for me.
Quick, easy, clean, and will simmer as low as you want.
And, i've found that if you are out for more than 2 1/2 days, it is lighter than alcohol.

But, if i'm traveling worldwide and am not sure of a fuel source, it's a Zipp stove for me.
Fire bans do suck. (except in CA where they are important)

[Pommes]

i guess its another HYOH thing. For me the stove is more then a stove. I make at least two hot meals a day. If its cold its more like 3. I like being able to make fire with little or no thought. Hell, i been known to light up an ounce just to dry my socks.

[Tinker]

The trick is to keep the fire small - no larger than the size of the pot. A hole 4'' deep is enough. When all done and covered with leaves and debris, there is absolutely no trace left.

Whether it's a big deal or not, ground fires sterilize the soil in the immediate area (killing microorganisms). Folks staying in shelters or designated tentsites often trample the undergrowth in their search for firewood.
As someone else stated, multiply that by ??? people, and it isn't necessarily a little thing anymore.:-?

[mweinstone]

jelly rolls off peanut butter
peanut butter does not chasejelly
but waits for another to replace it
man skootches jelly back up onto peanut butter
jelly runs
man forms deppression in peanut butter to hold jelly
bread squishes jelly and peanut butter,(now made more fluid due to the heat of so much handeling by man) onto mans hands
man with pbj hands is soldier guarding the doomsday devise
fumbeling with napkin man launches doomsday device
better to just cook.

[Half Note]

Who cares?

[fiddlehead]

jelly rolls off peanut butter
peanut butter does not chasejelly
but waits for another to replace it
man skootches jelly back up onto peanut butter
jelly runs
man forms deppression in peanut butter to hold jelly
bread squishes jelly and peanut butter,(now made more fluid due to the heat of so much handeling by man) onto mans hands
man with pbj hands is soldier guarding the doomsday devise
fumbeling with napkin man launches doomsday device
better to just cook.

Now that's funny.
(and true)

[ChinMusic]

Now that's funny.
(and true)
You speak Matty?

[Awol1970]

jelly rolls off peanut butter
peanut butter does not chasejelly
but waits for another to replace it
man skootches jelly back up onto peanut butter
jelly runs
man forms deppression in peanut butter to hold jelly
bread squishes jelly and peanut butter,(now made more fluid due to the heat of so much handeling by man) onto mans hands
man with pbj hands is soldier guarding the doomsday devise
fumbeling with napkin man launches doomsday device
better to just cook.

Wow. That right there is brilliant. No joke. Read it slowwwww....

[Lostone]

lebeda

Why ask a question for what you KNOW the answer? Your a punk, your right in your mind and you should really refrain from posting this crap further. Your an expert, where did you learn your craft.......dad who didn't know any better either. or better yet a book you bought at rei or ll bean.

Digging a small fire pit is not supporting leave no trace. then filling it in. Stripping firewood around the trails and shelters is leave no trace?????

Please your deluding yourself.

[Tinker]

Wow. That right there is brilliant. No joke. Read it slowwwww....

Uh........there's no other way to read Matty's writing. The man's a genius, but hard to follow.;)

[leaftye]

The fuel is why I hate carrying a stove. The weight, the bulk, having to ration it. No thanks. This stove is making me consider a stove again. I suppose in wet weather I may carry some fuel when I find it since I may not find it again when I'm ready to eat.

http://www.theboilerwerks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Boiler-Supreme-white-265x300.jpg

http://www.theboilerwerks.com

It's less than 8 ounces and the soot is inside it, so there's less mess.

[mweinstone]

i like his flagrent disregaurd for the law and the reason for bans and his inability to see hes in someone elses house. alot of someone eleses houses. and whose habitate supports all life for humanity. bans prevent blown embers from makeing me really mad cause the smokeys are burnned up. they prevent deforestation and allow reseeding and restoration projects that make hiking possible. and the nimber one reason you need a stove:

because shareing tang and pepperonie aint no first date
because cold spam sanwiches make for terrible kissing food
because bacon exists
because being responsible bacon lovers demands total devotion

[Jim Adams]

In 1990 I was hiking with a group of people that included Indiana Dan. He had just gotten out of the military and carried a large COPPER bowl about 12" in diameter and 6" deep to cook in. He used flint and steel to start a small fire for EVERY meal. The rest of us used stoves...white gas back then, but he ALWAYS had boiling water and cooked food before any of us could. He was very good at it.

All of the leaving traces statements about digging and burning are correct IMO but alcohol stoves cause more "traces" than probably anything else on the trail.

geek

[LoneRidgeRunner]

+3 on the BS... other than that..this isn't worth responding to....

[mweinstone]

geek is wise. if folks would not burn alcohol burn rings on everything, stuff would last longer. a simple foil sheet allows you to still break the rules cooking on the shelter and tables but stops them from burnning down. anyone remember stecoa gaps picnic table was on fire all day once?06 or 08. most folks dont know the wateris down the road up a dirt road.so they walked by. it was all from a burn ring left smoldering in wind.

[Awol1970]

Matt may I use "Sharing tang and pepperoni ain't no first date" in my real life? I'm asking permission now cause im stealing it for sure.

[mweinstone]

i got better. not drinkin. takes longer to warm up.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

Second, I have seen much more damage done by careless stove users than from a properly managed small cooking fire. The many burned tables and benches by shelters speak to that.

Not many full blown forest fires have been started by stove users. I nearly killed myself once (exertion) helping a wildlife officer fight a small forest fire near Fontana Lake with no tools to cut fire lanes except for our bare hands for nearly 2 hours that was caused by a careless fire building camper..Ruined my fishing day to say the least. That fire was still burning at least 2 acres when the firefighters finally arrived and took over the fight. It probably started with "just a small hole."
I never build fires when I'm camping. That's what my MSR Whisperlite shaker jet stove is for and for the record, I have never left a burn mark on ANYTHING with it.

[mweinstone]

lrr, me too. we call ourselves alcohol virgins. means you never burnt a ring.

[mweinstone]

of course folks leaving burn rings are alcohol whores. lol.

[Tinker]

geek is wise. if folks would not burn alcohol burn rings on everything, stuff would last longer. a simple foil sheet allows you to still break the rules cooking on the shelter and tables but stops them from burnning down. anyone remember stecoa gaps picnic table was on fire all day once?06 or 08. most folks dont know the wateris down the road up a dirt road.so they walked by. it was all from a burn ring left smoldering in wind.

I carry a foil sheet for my Super Cat stove. I must be cool:cool:.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

He pees on it first.

I'm surprised he didn't beat you to that one..lol...He has all the other answers...lol..

[LoneRidgeRunner]

I carry a foil sheet for my Super Cat stove. I must be cool:cool:.
That's certainly cooler than leaving burn rings and / or burning the woods down...

[Tinker]

That's certainly cooler than leaving burn rings and / or burning the woods down...

I have to admit that I did the former a few times early on in my alcy stove days :o.

[Del Q]

Why cook at all? We are on our computers on Whiteblaze which means we are probably at home, or near a fridge, stove, microwave. I am currently a section hiker and am finding the NO COOK MODE to be so much better.

Less weight, less BS to deal with, and I eat well on the AT

There are TONS OF GREAT NO COOK FOOD OPTIONS, after all, most of us are only out there for a relatively short period of time, plus we go through towns where we are pig out to our hearts delight.

Last year in Southern VA the first set of NOBO's were coming through, had the pleasure of spending time with two of them, none cook.

[RichardD]

I like to use a ZIP woodburner stove and I really think that I can boil enough water for coffee and breakfast faster than with an alcohol stove and almost as fast as a butane stove. It takes practice and of course things go a bit slower if its been raining a lot.
As for pollution, the stove uses only small amount of wood, a single fallen tree would fuel it for many lifetimes so the idea of denuding the area near shelters of wood is mute. In the larger scheme of things I would expect that the carbon footprint of operating a ZIP stove is likely much smaller than a butane stove with the disposable cannisters, shipping etc etc. I don't know how it would compare with an alcohol stove but I suspect rather favorably. The AA battery every 10 days is likely the most polluting part of the stove.
Of course a ground fire uses more wood and does sterilize the gound so is less LNT than the Zip but in my view whatever one uses it is the care and concern of the person that has the greatest impact. A caring experienced backpacker could, in my view, use a very small ground fire and leave very little trace. ( a group of ex NP and NF rangers used a ground fire every night on the JMT when I met them on the trail (or perhaps that was why they were ex NP :-?)).
A careless or uncaring backpacker could set the forest on fire with his bonfire or burn up the shelter floor with his alcohol stove.
Anyhow, I ramble, but that is my view.

[LIhikers]

......I have seen much more damage done by careless stove users than from a properly managed small cooking fire......

Not to beat a dead post, but, to be a proper comparison I think you'd need to compare a careless stove user and a careless fire builder. One leaves burn marks on wood and the other burns down the woods. Just sayin.....

[Jim Adams]

......I have seen much more damage done by careless stove users than from a properly managed small cooking fire......

Not to beat a dead post, but, to be a proper comparison I think you'd need to compare a careless stove user and a careless fire builder. One leaves burn marks on wood and the other burns down the woods. Just sayin.....

both are irresponsible. ban fires and alky stoves. alcohol was meant for drinking not burning.:D

geek

[Tinker]

One reason I started using alcohol for fuel is because it is much more friendly to the environment than fossil fueled stoves. I figure that it takes a bunch of diesel burning heavy equipment just to get at natural gas and crude oil, then it needs to be transported to refineries (requiring more fossil fuels), refined (requiring more fossil fuels [and electricity - most likely produced with the aid of fossil fuels]). Bottled or canned in steel or aluminum containers (the greater portion of which are non-recyclable), and shipped off to the retail store. Alcohol comes from rotting plant waste. Of course there's the canning and transporting of it, but it's a little more carbon neutral.
Small wood-burning stoves are maybe even more carbon neutral.

[Jim Adams]

One reason I started using alcohol for fuel is because it is much more friendly to the environment than fossil fueled stoves. I figure that it takes a bunch of diesel burning heavy equipment just to get at natural gas and crude oil, then it needs to be transported to refineries (requiring more fossil fuels), refined (requiring more fossil fuels [and electricity - most likely produced with the aid of fossil fuels]). Bottled or canned in steel or aluminum containers (the greater portion of which are non-recyclable), and shipped off to the retail store. Alcohol comes from rotting plant waste. Of course there's the canning and transporting of it, but it's a little more carbon neutral.
Small wood-burning stoves are maybe even more carbon neutral.

very good points!

geek

[leaftye]

Not to beat a dead post, but, to be a proper comparison I think you'd need to compare a careless stove user and a careless fire builder. One leaves burn marks on wood and the other burns down the woods. Just sayin.....

The first fire on the PCT last year was by a stove user.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Stoves don't cause forest fires. People do. You'll get my stove - from my cold--er warm, dead hands.

This message brought to you by the NRA - National Responsibility Association

[10-K]

Why cook at all?
Last year in Southern VA the first set of NOBO's were coming through, had the pleasure of spending time with two of them, none cook.

I'll say it again... come up with no-cook coffee and I'll leave my stove at home.

When will that register with the "no stove" people?

(To do this right, you've first got to convince people No Coffee. THEN you can work on No Stove.)

[4eyedbuzzard]

I'll say it again... come up with no-cook coffee and I'll leave my stove at home.

When will that register with the "no stove" people?

(To do this right, you've first got to convince people No Coffee. THEN you can work on No Stove.)

I'll bet no-cook coffee will taste like $#!^. I'm takin' my stove and building fires where allowed. My ancestors worked long and hard developing that fire building stuff. I ain't eating cold food when there's perfectly good heat available to cook it.

[mweinstone]

when clubbed animals can be eaten without stoves, ill give that a try. untill then, i fry, boil, bake and steam them on my stove.

[Pedaling Fool]

I read these forums and I am always puzzled by why people bring stoves on their thru hikers. Even the ultra-light ounce-counting folks would bring with them 10oz of stove and fuel. I have been backpacking since age 7 and never have carried a stove with me on any of my hikes (with the exception of Brooks Range in Alaska where in most places there just isn't anything around that would burn). Almost anywhere on the AT I can start a fire and boil a pot of water faster than with an alcohol stove. There really isn't a whole lot to it. Dig a small hole in suitable soil, set a pot over the hole keeping the pot handle between two rocks (at least as heavy as the full pot), and feed the fire. Keep the fire small. Water will boil in 5 min. When done, fill the whole with soil, spread leaves around, and nobody can tell you cooked there.

So I am wondering, why does almost everyone use stoves?
Plain and simple it all boils down to laziness, period - me included with all lazy asses.

We want to be out in nature, provided we are separated by our technology.

[fiddlehead]

when clubbed animals can be eaten without stoves, ill give that a try. untill then, i fry, boil, bake and steam them on my stove.

Farley Mowat didn't cook them.
And he tried them many different ways.
"Never Cry Wolf"

[Wise Old Owl]

Now i sense a troll.
Covering your fire with leaves and debris.
Yeah right!

no look at the number of posts - he's new.


back 50+ years ago - you would be right, make a fire carry a billy can and that was the way on the Govt. Trail. And finding fuel is easier today then back then. Why? before the fire service & having fire towers regular fires would remove all the debris and sticks leaving the trees. Hense the need for a small stove because collecting wood ment the stupid idea of breaking off live tree branches, if you could not find seasoned wood on the ground. Stoves got us all away from that, and the lack of backwoods fires has changed the landscape. Although a stove is part of the big four, It is still considered a big time saver and reduces the chance of setting a forest fire. Although you have a skill for making a hobo fire, many do not, could you imagine the risk if we all did what you do? I don't have a problem at all with what you are doing, but expect some harsh criticism on the AT if you are seen doing it by other hikers. That's my guess.\

It's more about the safety of the environment, so all can enjoy.

[Hooch]

. . . .So I am wondering, why does almost everyone use stoves?Hike your own hike, do your own thing, to each their own, etc.


. . . .I call BS.Totally!

[Wise Old Owl]

Ohh and lebeda (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?u=31484) folk have no idea how to get a fire going in a downpour with wet wood.

[Black Wolf]

I'll say it again... come up with no-cook coffee and I'll leave my stove at home.

When will that register with the "no stove" people?

(To do this right, you've first got to convince people No Coffee. THEN you can work on No Stove.)

Right on.!!...as I sip my freshly brewed coffee watching you play fiddle sticks with your hole in the ground traceless fire...


The fuel is why I hate carrying a stove. The weight, the bulk, having to ration it. No thanks. This stove is making me consider a stove again. I suppose in wet weather I may carry some fuel when I find it since I may not find it again when I'm ready to eat.

http://www.theboilerwerks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Boiler-Supreme-white-265x300.jpg

http://www.theboilerwerks.com

It's less than 8 ounces and the soot is inside it, so there's less mess.

Watched the video..nice concept...one major design flaw I see...once you lift the pot from the burn bowl...all the sticks( fuel )...fall into the nesting place of the pot..I guess it'd be OK if you only cooked one pot at a time & didn't want to reheat the contents...

My alcohol stove has a primer bowl built into it...no rings

lebeda.....BS +4 or 5..what ever the count is...I'll pit my packed stove against your fire-in-the-hole anytime,anywhere, in any weather condition...while the ability to cook with a fire is a great alternative...it's just that...an alternative...

your leave no-trace theory kinda' sounds like Bp....bury it (sink it in their case).....outta' sight..outta' mind

[Colter]

Banfield compared Mowat's 1963 bestseller to another famous wolf tale: "Little Red Riding Hood." "I hope that readers of "Never Cry Wolf" will realize that both stories have about the same factual content" Frank Banfield (http://www.salon.com/people/bc/1999/05/11/mowat/index1.html) of the Canadian Wildlife Federation. Wolf expert David Mech has also made a big point of how Mowat had fabricated much of Never Cry Wolf, particularly the part about the wolves subsisting on mice. By his own admission, Mowat spent only about 90 hours studying the wolves, so how likely is it that he ate even a single mouse?

Lots of people get by without stoves, however I am confident I can get water boiling with less time spent than someone using wood, on average. Using wood you would also have to include gathering fuel and lighting the fire, even when it's raining. And then there is the LNT and fire ban issues as has been pointed out.

[Lone Wolf]

I read these forums and I am always puzzled by why people bring stoves on their thru hikers.

So I am wondering, why does almost everyone use stoves?

cuz when it's raining and i'm soaking wet at 35 degrees i wanna boil up some hot water fast on my canister stove. plus we're not as badazz as you :rolleyes:

[4eyedbuzzard]

Real men always pack a pocket rocket :D

[Lone Wolf]

Real men always pack a pocket rocket :D

smart men at least

[earlyriser26]

There are lots of reasons to use a stove. 1) faster, I can have my pocket rocket running in less than a min., try that with a fire. 2) I don't care if you can build a fire in a rain storm, I will be in my tent or shelter using my stove. You will be in the rain storm. 3) If it wasn't for different stoves, people would have nothing to argue about...

[4eyedbuzzard]

If it wasn't for different stoves, people would have nothing to argue about...

Wanna bet? :banana

[kayak karl]

Wanna bet? :banana
LOL like, " the sky is blue"

[Skidsteer]

...Although a stove is part of the big four, It is still considered a big time saver and reduces the chance of setting a forest fire.

Actually, no, a stove isn't one of the "big four".

Those would be pack, shelter, sleeping pad, and sleeping bag.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Actually, no, a stove isn't one of the "big four".

Those would be pack, shelter, sleeping pad, and sleeping bag.

Speak fer yerself - You ain't seen my stove :D

http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00QCRaMtmjgVoh/Camping-Stove-with-Oven-CO-02P-.jpg

[Skidsteer]

Cool! A multi-use stove/pack combo. Throw straps and a hipbelt on it and carry your gear in the oven.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Cool! A multi-use stove/pack combo. Throw straps and a hipbelt on it and carry your gear in the oven.

'zactly :D

[earlyriser26]

LOL like, " the sky is blue"
Actually, it is more grey.

[Spokes]

no look at the number of posts - he's new.


back 50+ years ago - you would be right, make a fire carry a billy can and that was the way on the Govt. Trail. .........

Great point WOO. Makes me think the next bit of advice will be to dig a trench around your tent.

Too funny!!!!

[LoneRidgeRunner]

Great point WOO. Make me think the next bit of advice will be to dig a trench around your tent.

Too funny!!!!

Did that many years ago in Boy Scouts when our "tents" were nothing more than floor-less sheets of canvas pitched over 2 sticks we cut in the woods and I don't remember carrying ground sheets ..been many years and my memory ain't what it used to be ..not dug a trench in many years and ain't missed it..."ain't" = proper Southern English here in Western NC where the English language was perfected....OMG! sorta sounds like "fire in the hole" what's his name ..huh?

[LoneRidgeRunner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kayak karl http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1100070#post1100070)
LOL like, " the sky is blue"

Actually, it is more grey.

It's grey when I'm hiking.... and raining or snowing ..It would rain in the Sahara desert if I was there hiking...

[Del Q]

10-K

Come on, step it up, dehydrated coffee grinds between the cheek and gums just like chewing tobacco, no cook coffee, easy, simple, savor-the-flavor

Get fresh brewed in town

[10-K]

10-K

Come on, step it up, dehydrated coffee grinds between the cheek and gums just like chewing tobacco, no cook coffee, easy, simple, savor-the-flavor

Get fresh brewed in town

:) I was thinking about sucking on a Folgers coffee single......

[Blissful]

IMO but alcohol stoves cause more "traces" than probably anything else on the trail.

geek


Its true they cause unsightly damage, but it is on manmade structures, not in the woods where LNT principles apply.
What ticked me off was this huge fire pit some guys dug out brand new on top of the gorgeous bald heading south toward Roan when I was hiking SOBO last fall. Gross and unsightly. Sad

[veteran]

I will go along with the

[Big Dawg]

10-K

Come on, step it up, dehydrated coffee grinds between the cheek and gums just like chewing tobacco, no cook coffee, easy, simple, savor-the-flavor

Get fresh brewed in town

good one,, I may have to try that,, ha.

yeah,, I gave up messing w/ coffee in the woods,, just get my beverage fix when I hit town. I do eat choc covered coffee beans in the woods to maintain my coffee addiction.:D My normal daily hit is 8 shots of espresso over ice w/ cream and sugar,, never the same when tried to make it in the woods.

as far as a stove,, I use alky,, but am on the verge of going stoveless. so many non-cook options to choose from.

[kolokolo]

When done, fill the whole with soil, spread leaves around, and nobody can tell you cooked there.

So I am wondering, why does almost everyone use stoves?

Man, you really don't get LNT, do you?

[Joshuatree]

One reason I started using alcohol for fuel is because it is much more friendly to the environment than fossil fueled stoves. I figure that it takes a bunch of diesel burning heavy equipment just to get at natural gas and crude oil, then it needs to be transported to refineries (requiring more fossil fuels), refined (requiring more fossil fuels [and electricity - most likely produced with the aid of fossil fuels]). Bottled or canned in steel or aluminum containers (the greater portion of which are non-recyclable), and shipped off to the retail store. Alcohol comes from rotting plant waste. Of course there's the canning and transporting of it, but it's a little more carbon neutral.
Small wood-burning stoves are maybe even more carbon neutral.

Alcohol isn't as green as you would think.
Growing the corn or other plant material takes alot of oil and oil by products in running the trucks, tractors and semi's. The fertilizers and pesticides all use oil derivatives and use fuel to apply. The production plants are hugh water users they use upwards of 10 gallons of water to one gallon of product. plus you can't transport aclohol in pipelines yet, it all gets transport over the road.
Not that I think everybody should do it. But using a fire hole doesn't kill hugh numbers of microbes. The heat of a small fire to boil a liter of water doesn't reach more then a couple millimeters in to the soil. once you throw a little water in the hole from cleaning your bowl out and throw the dirt on top and redistribute the leaf litter most people would be hard press to notice any one had been there
The reason we are see all of the large forest fires is because the forest service has been putting out the small ground clearing fires for better then 80 years. There's an over abundance of ground clutter which causes larger hotter fires that do more damage to the forest then small ground fires. I would think that Responsible people using a fire to cook with would help prevent large fires around trails and campgrounds if a stove did malfunction and spill burning fuel.
I personally use a stove to cook meals unless its a cold damp night. If theres a fire ring then I'm cooking over coals. I carry a stove because I like to cook not just boil water and rehydrate somthing out of bag thats ok for lunch on the trail but dinners are differant.
If I'm carrying alcohol its going to be a nice Whiskey which
tastes wonderful with filtered mountain stream water:banana

[TheChop]

Not that I think everybody should do it. But using a fire hole doesn't kill hugh numbers of microbes. The heat of a small fire to boil a liter of water doesn't reach more then a couple millimeters in to the soil. once you throw a little water in the hole from cleaning your bowl out and throw the dirt on top and redistribute the leaf litter most people would be hard press to notice any one had been there

What you're not getting is this multiplied by X number of hikers. There are already serious problems on some sections of the trail with human waste. Sure dig a cat hole, poop in it, throw dirt on top of it, redistribute the leaves most people would be hard pressed to notice...

Until twenty people do it around a campsite... every week. Between camp fires and small fire holes anything other than the most out of the way campsites on the AT would become ash filled and barren of wood if this was widely done. Then if firewood wasn't readily available people would start harvesting smaller trees. Because it's just one sapling.

Your assumption is that everyone doing this will be responsible. In your mind you'd never be the cause of loose embers or a partially buried hole but the truth is everyone is capable of making a colossally stupid mistake add in people that are being pushed to their mental, emotional and physical breaking points and saying that most people on the AT making fires wouldn't be disastrous is silly.

[lebeda]

Man, you really don't get LNT, do you?

Reading comprehension fail. This also goes to the other 5 people who said the same thing.

small cooking fire the size of my footprint != bonfire

You leave more trace walking on a muddy trail than I do with my cooking fire.

[bpitt]

Hike your own hike, just saying.

As an aside, I've tried the coffee grains in the side cheek. It ain't too bad.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Reading comprehension fail. This also goes to the other 5 people who said the same thing.

small cooking fire the size of my footprint != bonfire

You leave more trace walking on a muddy trail than I do with my cooking fire.
But you know doubt levitated above that trail to get to your fire pit. :rolleyes: It's not a matter of one vs the other. It's a question of reducing overall impact, and not adding unneeded new ones, which you seem unable to comprehend. That's okay, the trails and parks are there for the challenged as well.

[WILLIAM HAYES]

because I love the smell of esbit in the morning

[Mags]

If every hiker made a small cooking fire, the browse line from the campsites would be ginormous...

Fires work in moderation..not when say the approx 80000 users of backcountry campsites in the Smokeys make cooking fires.
(http://web.eecs.utk.edu/%7Edunigan/gsmnp/campstats.html)
So, make your fire. Be a he-man. :) But all if the users on the AT did that, well..if would not be pretty.

I'm a wimp and don't take any stoves at all on longer hikes and eat cold. ;)

[Wise Old Owl]

Actually, no, a stove isn't one of the "big four".

Those would be pack, shelter, sleeping pad, and sleeping bag.

See there ya go again...

Its Pack, Hammock, Sleeping Bag, Stove .... Now why do I need a pad?:D

[Wise Old Owl]

Great point WOO. Make me think the next bit of advice will be to dig a trench around your tent.

Too funny!!!!


Did that many years ago in Boy Scouts when our "tents" were nothing more than floor-less sheets of canvas pitched over 2 sticks we cut in the woods and I don't remember carrying ground sheets ..been many years and my memory ain't what it used to be ..not dug a trench in many years and ain't missed it..."ain't" = proper Southern English here in Western NC where the English language was perfected....OMG! sorta sounds like "fire in the hole" what's his name ..huh?

By any chance did you see or compare the fire pits and various dug out type pits from survival school were (in) the 70's Boy Scout Book and today its all been removed in favor of "lets all get along" and other replaced sections.

[mweinstone]

for anyone who is an alum of the national outdoor leadership school, the effects of a spent match or a soc washed in a pond or a single line of footsteps thru brush or a bit of lint from your belly button are well understood. topsoil takes 100 years per inch to form. burning on anything but the mineral soil underneath kills top soil. disrespect for laws governing landuse in the further places turnes them into not so further places. flora and fauna and pond ecology and respect for others. live it love it. learn it.

bs+google

[Pedaling Fool]

I don't know why you'll keep arguing this if you're convinced that the OP is a troll -- I'm not sayin' he is, don't know and don't care.

However, troll or not, it's a legit question and a very simple question to answer.


The answer is simply convenience, period.

Let's assume that little campfires were proved to be a non-issue with respect to LNT. How many hikers do you'll suppose would stop using a stove... the answer is simple, virtually none.

We love the convenience of technology, just admit it and stop using LNT to justify your lazy ass.


:sun

[Lone Wolf]

I don't know why you'll keep arguing this if you're convinced that the OP is a troll -- I'm not sayin' he is, don't know and don't care.

However, troll or not, it's a legit question and a very simple question to answer.


The answer is simply convenience, period.

Let's assume that little campfires were proved to be a non-issue with respect to LNT. How many hikers do you'll suppose would stop using a stove... the answer is simple, virtually none.

We love the convenience of technology, just admit it and stop using LNT to justify your lazy ass.


:sun
those little holes he makes for fires aren't hurting a thing

[Wise Old Owl]

I agree and what a way to greet a new member. It's important to give folk the benifit of the doubt. The OP just joined, give it time.

[4eyedbuzzard]

those little holes he makes for fires aren't hurting a thing
True. His one fire hole isn't going to hurt anything. It's the 3,999,999 other ones that just might have an impact if everyone who hiked on the AT during some part of the year did the same.

[paradoxb3]

I agree and what a way to greet a new member. It's important to give folk the benifit of the doubt. The OP just joined, give it time.

well my thinking is that if the OP wanted any respect he wouldn't have introduced himself with a "why dont all you dumb people do like me because i'm obviously the only one thats right in the world"-type post.

the only correct answer to the question posed by our superior walker is "because you're totally way smarter than us lazy trend followers." but seriously, what i dont understand is why folks come here to start an arguement about something that doesnt have any effect them. answer me a question -- why is it any concern to you how i boil water? are you trying to save me a few ounces? while i appreciate your chivalry, my back sweat adds more weight to my pack every day than my stove and fuel. you asked "why" and got your answer within the first half-dozen posts so why keep pushing? if you're such an experienced backpacker, the first thing you would know is that there is no "best" way to do anything.

wow i'm in a bad mood, i should get off WB.

[Lone Wolf]

True. His one fire hole isn't going to hurt anything. It's the 3,999,999 other ones that just might have an impact if everyone who hiked on the AT during some part of the year did the same.

you know and i know that'll never happen

[4eyedbuzzard]

I agree and what a way to greet a new member. It's important to give folk the benifit of the doubt. The OP just joined, give it time.
He's 32 years old, been backpacking for some 25 years, has loads of experience, but hasn't read and figured out that given the heavy use of areas like the AT that restrictions on creating new fire rings are necessary? BS

[Lone Wolf]

He's 32 years old, been backpacking for some 25 years, has loads of experience, but hasn't read and figured out that given the heavy use of areas like the AT that restrictions on creating new fire rings are necessary? BS

he's not making fire rings

[lori]

He thinks that HIDING the trace he leaves is LNT. BS.

[Lone Wolf]

He thinks that HIDING the trace he leaves is LNT. BS.

do you crap in woods and bury it?

[4eyedbuzzard]

he's not making fire rings
I have to disagree with you LW on that it's an acceptable practice. If everybody did it people would complain as much about it as holes from Lekis, TP flowers, and every other scar on the landscape. It's an avoidable practice.

[Lone Wolf]

I have to disagree with you LW on that it's an acceptable practice. If everybody did it people would complain as much about it as holes from Lekis, TP flowers, and every other scar on the landscape. It's an avoidable practice.

it hurts nothing

[lori]

do you crap in woods and bury it?

Does crap kill microorganisms and bugs? BURN things? Get in the roots and cause a below-surface fire? Don't laugh, I've seen it...

[lori]

If 1,000 people build a fire every 10 miles along a 2000 mile trail, how many scars on the ground is that?

It's just not sane to assume that everyone's going to put it out properly, or go to all the trouble of burying what's left. So factor in some forest fires in there.

[Pedaling Fool]

No one is really concerned about LNT, because if you think about it LNT is not just about the trail it's about the earth. Everyone bitches about cars and the environmental impact and the need for us to reduce our footprint, yada yada yada...

However, of all the concerned people how many switch from lip service to action by incorporating all or most of the following to reduce their personal footprint:
Bicycling, walking, car pools, using various forms of public transportation, abstain from slackpacking...

Well, many can claim they do, but the numbers don't support that, our use of fossil fuels keeps going up.

That's how I know all this talk about LNT is just pure fun, but nothing practical, since people won't give-up their stoves due to the luxury. We know this just by observing all the lip service about living a greener life by reducing our use of fossil fuels. NO one (by "no one" I mean on any large scale) is willing significantly reduce their car driving. Why, because of the luxury and convenience

[Lone Wolf]

No one is really concerned about LNT, because if you think about it LNT is not just about the trail it's about the earth. Everyone bitches about cars and the environmental impact and the need for us to reduce our footprint, yada yada yada...

However, of all the concerned people how many switch from lip service to action by incorporating all or most of the following to reduce their personal footprint:
Bicycling, walking, car pools, using various forms of public transportation, abstain from slackpacking...

Well, many can claim they do, but the numbers don't support that, our use of fossil fuels keeps going up.

That's how I know all this talk about LNT is just pure fun, but nothing practical, since people won't give-up their stoves due to the luxury. We know this just by observing all the lip service about living a greener life by reducing our use of fossil fuels. NO one (by "no one" I mean on any large scale) is willing significantly reduce their car driving. Why, because of the luxury and convenience

he gets it

[nitegaunt]

As quick as people here usually shut down a ridiculous thread, I am surprised to see so many pages taken up here. It's pretty obvious that there is no way a person can gather wood, dig a hole, start a fire, and boil water faster than light a can of alcohol and wait. Yet it's an argument? As far as building fires, there are plenty of fire rings on the AT already in place. At least here in TN and SW VA I've never found it necessary to make a new one.

[Joshuatree]

What you're not getting is this multiplied by X number of hikers. There are already serious problems on some sections of the trail with human waste. Sure dig a cat hole, poop in it, throw dirt on top of it, redistribute the leaves most people would be hard pressed to notice...

Until twenty people do it around a campsite... every week. Between camp fires and small fire holes anything other than the most out of the way campsites on the AT would become ash filled and barren of wood if this was widely done. Then if firewood wasn't readily available people would start harvesting smaller trees. Because it's just one sapling.

Your assumption is that everyone doing this will be responsible. In your mind you'd never be the cause of loose embers or a partially buried hole but the truth is everyone is capable of making a colossally stupid mistake add in people that are being pushed to their mental, emotional and physical breaking points and saying that most people on the AT making fires wouldn't be disastrous is silly.


What does the first line you quoted say????? "NOT THAT I THINK EVERYBODY SHOULD DO IT." I love how the people pick apart replys using the qoute option to change the meaning of the original posts to suit their replys. I would like to know how digging a hole then burying the ashes leaves them laying all over the ground?? Cutting down small saplings for firewood I would give a person doing that a day before they give up and go home. The point of using a cook fire would be to remove downed wood. before you hacked up my post up I said burning the downed litter round campsites makes them safer. if an accident happened because a Stressed emotinally wrecked hiker misused their stove it wouldn't spread to the forest canopy which is the cause of large tree killing fires. If catholes are becoming that big of a problem maybe its time to start putting in back country toilets at campsites and popular stops to confine the pollution.
I think you are assuming cook fires are large raging affairs. Cook fires aren't large they are small made using small sticks and branches that blow out of trees everyday. a hand full of finger or thumb sized sticks and a small handful of tinder will boil a pot of water.

[Jim Adams]

Farley Mowat didn't cook them.
And he tried them many different ways.
"Never Cry Wolf"
Great movie!
Kinda strange... just watched that 2 nights ago.:-?

geek

[fehchet]

"little fire holes" won't ever be the norm or be in such abundance the forest will be cleared of burnable wood. (just not an argument) In reality the odds of stepping into somebody's hidden, fresh cat hole are probably 10,000 times more. I know if I must take a crap in a driving rain storm, that I can and I will. But I might find it difficult igniting some tinder in a dirt hole quickly filling with water. Lone Wolf, the King of pith, is right on the money again.

[Jim Adams]

It's just not sane to assume that everyone's going to put it out properly, or go to all the trouble of burying what's left. So factor in some forest fires in there.

My feelings on alcohol stoves!:(

geek

[SouthMark]

it hurts nothing

You are right but I think most people's feathers were ruffled by the "I am superior" sound to his original post.

[Jim Adams]

Its true they cause unsightly damage, but it is on manmade structures, not in the woods where LNT principles apply.
What ticked me off was this huge fire pit some guys dug out brand new on top of the gorgeous bald heading south toward Roan when I was hiking SOBO last fall. Gross and unsightly. Sad
I agree, I hate to see huge fire pits on the trail but LNT also applies to man made things...if not, everybody would like graffitti.:-?
geek

[skooch]

As quick as people here usually shut down a ridiculous thread, I am surprised to see so many pages taken up here. It's pretty obvious that there is no way a person can gather wood, dig a hole, start a fire, and boil water faster than light a can of alcohol and wait. Yet it's an argument? As far as building fires, there are plenty of fire rings on the AT already in place. At least here in TN and SW VA I've never found it necessary to make a new one.

right and I can't believe I keep reading it! on to more enlightening discussions.

[Miner]

I'll assume this was a serious question, despite the posts to the contrary. I use alcohol, esbit, canister, and wood burning stoves. And sometimes no stove at all. All have their place. However, none are superior in every situation. And personally, I much prefer cooking with my Bushbuddy Ultra wood stove over using an open fire; but that's my personal preference.

As to why I choose alcohol over a small open wood fire for a thru-hike (which were the choices given in the OP), the answer is ease and speed. If one considers how long it took over the day to gather their small supply of wood, there is no way they can start that fire, cook faster, and clean up the fire traces then I can with one of my alcohol stoves (which is stored in the top of my pack since I stop early to cook dinner before hiking on for a few more miles). The tiny alcohol stoves I use (even with the wind screen) only weigh about an ounce. Even when including my tiny pot at 2.2oz, I don't see where the 10oz stove idea comes from. Only a few hikers are carrying a jetboil on the trail. As I only need 0.5 fl. oz of alcohol per meal, I don't need to carry very much alcohol in a tiny plastic bottle between towns. So the weight penalty for the system is pretty small. I can also cook under my tarp or in a shelter which is impossible with a wood fire. The small cooking fire really only wins in cost since fuel is free. And I have to admit, there is something to be said about playing with a fire.

[takethisbread]

I carry a stove cuz im not a pu$$y, and dont think 10 oz is too much to carry.

[KMACK]

So we continue to walk on this 2000+ mile gaping wound that we put here on mother earth (we call it the AT) and we are up in arms about LNT?????

[Pommes]

I carry a stove cuz im not a pu$$y, and dont think 10 oz is too much to carry.

I like fire. I carry about 30oz.

[V Eight]

When I first started thinking about hiking again, at first I just
figured I would use my old Colman stove. As my planning progressed
I found that my Colman was just to bulky. In my search for stove options,
I chased a link to a site that had pop can stoves. Now I may be easily
amused but, I thought it was the coolest piece of gear I’d seen since the
hip belt!

Now, at the end of my hiking day, even on those days that it hurts like
hell to get all the way down to the ground (where my stove always is when lit)
it still puts a smile on my face when that thing “blooms”. Like I said I’m
easily amused.


Digging a hole, finding wood and working the fire up would just
not be the same. As for the weight penalty, I can live with the 8 to 10 oz.

[Dances with Mice]

So we continue to walk on this 2000+ mile gaping wound that we put here on mother earth (we call it the AT) and we are up in arms about LNT?????Nah. That would be I-95.

The AT is constantly returning to nature, it's a battle to just keep the "wound" open. Right now, as I write this, there's a tree falling somewhere that some volunteer is going to have to remove. Five years after a Trail section is relo'd it's totally obliterated or damn near so. That ain't no gaping wound, it's barely a scratch.

Just sayin'.

[Graywolf]

I see some of the things he is talking about. On the other hand, I would rather have astove handy as I am too tired after hiking to get out and "work" to make a fire to cook on. The stove is just simpler and easier. Now if I run out or I need a good warming fire in the Winter, yes, I will make a SMALL fire.. Thats only survival.. And it is a good relaxer sitting infront of a small firs and just chilling. Dont tell me none of you dont do that., I saw the marks all along the AT lon my secion hike..

Now for the holes, he does have a good point. Leave No Trace? Well, lets see, when you go and take a !@#$ in the woods, do you did a small hole? or do you just go on the ground for others to step on.. Then there is the smell factor.. " Oh, yes, I smell it. Someone has been here oh right!! Watch where you step."

My point is, a small hole for a fire is Leave No Trace.. Even the Scouts practice it. Its when you build a hugh fire roaring and blazing is the problem..

But once again, I will carry my little alcy stove for my tea and noodles..Its just so much easier that way..

[sheepdog]

So we continue to walk on this 2000+ mile gaping wound that we put here on mother earth (we call it the AT) and we are up in arms about LNT?????
zacktly...............

[Graywolf]

zacktly...............

You know, actually if I remember correctly, there is another thread here on White Blaze where WB members were actually putting down LNT.. So I guess this is a double standard...

Me personnaly, USE COMMON SENSE!! Thats it. Its easy...Oh, but then we are talking about....forget it!!

[Bearbag]

Obviously you are still puzzled... these nice folks answered your question with very good answers. If you dont agree with them then just agree to disagree.