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lawman
12-29-2004, 21:32
Greetings all, I was a bit put off with the written insults about Wingfoot. I met the man in 1992 when I was doing the Smokies. I really dont know what has happened between then and now but we must give him the respect due. I don't care about who he sleeps with or his politics, just as long as he would help any one of us on the Trail. I was surprised and so put off that I was thinking over my membership to this site. How can anyone compare Wingfoot to Ward Lenord!! I met Ward in the mid 90's and no way could anyone compare him to Wingfoot. I completed my 13 year section hike in 2001. I started in 2002 for a second AT try. 2005 my friend Huff & Puff and I will do over 100 days from Aug-Nov, completing his first AT hike. His will take 16 years. I have met many hikers both thru and section. Look we are all out there to enjoy the moment and all get along. I hope the magic does totally leave when we are home. Happy New Years. Lawman (Gary) Chesapeake, va.:-?

SGT Rock
12-29-2004, 21:45
Well there has been some mud slinging and a few unofficial attempts by some to turn this into an anti-WF site, something I always try to turn aside with a general comment. We figure it is better to try and let general free speech reign here whenever possible even if it means letting some people talk when they use the wrong part of their anatomy for thought and speech. We would rather folks see stuff they disagree with than to force feed a general consensus from the top. There are also folks here that give WF respect as well, so don't let it get you that you read some negative stuff about him. Quite probably there is negative things about me on the net, but that is part of doing something like a web site. Anyway, if that philosophy doesn't suit you, this might not be the site for you, but I can guarantee you won't have posts deleted or be banned for disagreeing with me or ATTroll unless you just get totally vulgar or something similar.

Frosty
12-29-2004, 22:40
Greetings all, I was a bit put off with the written insults about Wingfoot. I met the man in 1992 when I was doing the Smokies. I really dont know what has happened between then and now but we must give him the respect due. I don't care about who he sleeps with or his politics, just as long as he would help any one of us on the Trail. I was surprised and so put off that I was thinking over my membership to this site. How can anyone compare Wingfoot to Ward Lenord!! I met Ward in the mid 90's and no way could anyone compare him to Wingfoot. I completed my 13 year section hike in 2001. I started in 2002 for a second AT try. 2005 my friend Huff & Puff and I will do over 100 days from Aug-Nov, completing his first AT hike. His will take 16 years. I have met many hikers both thru and section. Look we are all out there to enjoy the moment and all get along. I hope the magic does totally leave when we are home. Happy New Years. Lawman (Gary) Chesapeake, va.:-?Nice that you can talk about Wingfoot here. If you mentioned Whiteblaze at Trailplace, your post would be deleted, and if you tried again you would be banned. Like my ex-mother-in-law, WF is great as long as you agree with him, but all bets are off when you say/do something of which he doesn't approve. I like it here where you can post about the way you like to hike, even if it isn't the way the moderator would like to hike, and would never go back to Trailplace. I doubt if anyone there has missed me.

JillJones
12-29-2004, 23:18
Itís definitely a 2-edged sword when it comes to free speech. Iíve been watching both sites for a few yearsÖ Personality, I think WB strikes a nice sense of balance.
1<SUP>st</SUP>, thereís a good group of people whoíve thru hiked, section hiked, in the planning stages and everything in between. The voices you hear from WB are from a large group and not just a few. I think, the thought is, given the amount of information a person can obtain from this site; they can then make an intelligent decision for themselves.

Like was stated, whenever you have free speech, then people no doubt at times, will say stupid, hurtful, off the wall and unintelligent statements. Which everyone (Self included) is capable of doing from time to time. However, if it goes off topic, then thereís a place to take the matter and discuss it there. I think there is enough maturity here, given time, for people to sort it out themselves. Iíve read his policy and I understand what WF is trying to accomplish. To put it simply, IMO, I donít think, ďThe end justifies the meansí.

I agree I think what is best for new and old hikers alike as it relates to the trail should be the main focus. I feel, WB tries to maintain this focus by letting the individual voices of the hikers be heard.. This topic has been debated both here and on the trail forever. From everything Iíve heard and read, and so much discussion, I doubt, many people will change the way they think or feel. <O:p</O:p
However, at lease here, it can be discussed. Iíve read through all the threads in the forums on this discussion about WF, (Trust me, there is plenty) and anyone can do a WhiteBlaze search on Wingfoot and youíre off and running. Youíll find more then enough info there on peopleís thoughts on this subject. I would suggest, if you canít find an answer to a question or a comment or thought on this matter, which hasnít been made at lease a few times, then come back and ask a question. Just my though on the matter..

PS I've been having trouble with the size of the fonts on my posts... If someone is having trouble reading this, please let me know...

SGT Rock
12-29-2004, 23:26
Check your browser font. If you are using IE, look under "View" then "Text Size". See if it is set to Smaller or Smallest.

TJ aka Teej
12-29-2004, 23:32
Greetings all, I was a bit put off with the written insults about Wingfoot.
70 thousand some odd posts here, and 99.99% don't mention W***F*** at all. Only 169 references, according to the WhiteBlaze search feature. Beer has been mentioned 1500 more times than W***F***, so you can see what really matters to AT hikers.
What did you think about the tin can stove posts? The hammock posts? How about the Gathering and Ruck posts? What about the posts about coffee, peak bagging, trip reports, maildrops, trail angeling, hitch-hiking, southbounding, start dates, PUDs, dogs, boots, tents, tarps, Lekis, leave-no-trace, the AMC, the ATC, land trusts, photography, cell phones, canoe rides, hostels, shelters, GPS devices, AYCEs, slackpacking, beards, music players, rashes, books, DVDs, and yogi-ing?
Congrats on your section hikes lawman, and welcome to WhiteBlaze.

FatMan
12-29-2004, 23:55
:welcome

You want to read insults here. Just say you hike with a dog and watch the insults fly. Oops, gotta go....incoming!:bse

attroll
12-30-2004, 01:22
wbdent I am asking kindly here. Lets please not start a Wingfoot bashing thread out of this again. If anyone wants to read the past bashings then do a search on this site for the name "wingfoot" and you can read what has already been said 1,000 times. Sorry to be a pain about this, but how many times can only beat a horse with the same stick. Well I think that is the pharse.

Jack Lincoln
12-30-2004, 03:00
Just let everyone keep posting whatever they like. Nobody is making anyone read any posts!

Thank you Administrators for all you do...


Jack

chomp
12-30-2004, 09:42
Greetings all, I was a bit put off with the written insults about Wingfoot. I met the man in 1992 when I was doing the Smokies. I really dont know what has happened between then and now but we must give him the respect due. I don't care about who he sleeps with or his politics, just as long as he would help any one of us on the Trail. I was surprised and so put off that I was thinking over my membership to this site. How can anyone compare Wingfoot to Ward Lenord!! I met Ward in the mid 90's and no way could anyone compare him to Wingfoot. I completed my 13 year section hike in 2001. I started in 2002 for a second AT try. 2005 my friend Huff & Puff and I will do over 100 days from Aug-Nov, completing his first AT hike. His will take 16 years. I have met many hikers both thru and section. Look we are all out there to enjoy the moment and all get along. I hope the magic does totally leave when we are home. Happy New Years. Lawman (Gary) Chesapeake, va.:-?
Lighten up. As you said, you haven't met or spoken to the man in 13 years. Keep in mind that a lot could have changed since then. I met him five years ago and have traded emails with him more recent than that. I think the guy is a self-centered jerk. You think he is a stand up guy. I have my reasons (non of which have to do with who he sleeps with or his politics), and you have yours. We can agree to disagree without getting offended or put off.

Good luck on your second AT hike attempt, congrats to your friend, and happy new year.

neo
12-30-2004, 09:48
i have never met wingfoot,but i have heard a lot of funny jokes about him

:sun neo

superman
12-30-2004, 12:27
Wingfoot created a format that speaks in an absolute way the etiquette and responsibility of hikers. He doesn't tolerate other opinions or debate the issues. It's his way or the highway. Having said that he has introduced important issues to an awful lot of hikers. When I hiked the LT in 99 I did it with only the misinformation I had learned in the military and scouting. My gear and my approach to hiking made it harder on the environment and me than it needed to be. In the course of my 99 hike other hikers told me about Wingfoots site. The issues discussed on Wingfoots site got me to rethink what I'd been doing. I agree with some of his opinions and disagree with others. The important thing was that he got me to change what I'd been doing. The odd thing is that when Winter, Tuk and I talked to him on his porch in 2000 he was very personable and easy to talk to. He talked about hikes that he'd made with most all the things that he rants about on his site. There was a lot more "hike your own hike" in person than on his site. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

I appreciate the information that I got from his site but I didn't appreciate it when my journal got dumped before I got it copied.

Superman and Winter GA>ME 2000

JillJones
12-30-2004, 12:50
Itís really very simple for individuals to make a decision on which site they like best. Just use it. Post questions and comments there and here. If you feel your needs are being met, your questions are being answered, then great. If not, do a Google and find what you want, and move on.

Footnotes
12-30-2004, 15:29
Is there any chance that this could be the last post concerning WF for the year 2004? Is there anyone who hasn't voiced their opinion in the past and doesn't know what others think and feel? ATTroll is right. It has all been said before over and over including by yours truly. Lawman has a right to his opinion as do all of us. What is really important is how we treat each other when we come together on the trail. Give it a rest
Foot Notes

SGT Rock
12-30-2004, 15:32
Amen. Like talking about WF makes it any easier to hike or makes your hike more enjoyable. Seems more likely the rants about him produce nothing and improve nothing. Go help someon critique their packing list ;)

TJ aka Teej
12-30-2004, 15:44
Give it a rest
Hi Footnotes. Like you I thought it was worth a response. I also thought it quite odd that after weeks with no mention at all of W***F*** here on WhiteBlaze, a new poster would make a point of complaining about just a few of the 73,000 posts here. Makes you wonder just what info he was searching for after joining, what with all the other topics here. I wonder if lawman has made a similar post over there?

food
12-30-2004, 16:22
Disclosure: I have been banned for life from WingFoot's site.

While rasing our daughter we always emphasized that being talented in one area does not give you insight into other areas. Smart people do make stupid choices. Performing at a high level in an activity almost always requires life balance to be sacrificed. Rock Stars are NOT role models.

I respect and admire his intensity, effort and devotion to the AT. But skilled hikers are not necessarily talented forum moderators.

We are all unique, but it seems to me that independence and resourcefulness are the shared traits of long distance hikers. These traits are not compatible with rigid moderation. I don't think that WingFoot has created an environment where hikers can thrive.

I believe that the majority of conflicts on the WhiteBlaze are caused by Cabin Fever. I think we would get along a lot better if we all hiked more. But, I also think that this forum is comfortable for most hikers.

Lugnut
12-30-2004, 17:44
Superman, There is an (unauthorized, I think) archive of Trail Place journals.
The computer I have the address on is "confused", but as near as I can tell this is the address: http://archive.org/web/20000510104141/http://trailplace.com/ If I remember correctly the year 2000 is the main focus of the archive. Hope this helps you out. If the address doesn't work out I'll forward you the link as soon as I get my other computer straightened up.

Footnotes
12-30-2004, 18:54
Hey TJ,

Now I can come up with lots of scenarios on who Lawman is, what he wants, why, where, and when. My mind doesn't work that way yet I know many play games on these forums. Oh well, I was hoping for peace, love, joy to end the old year and now I am thinking conspiracies LOL. Hope you have a Happy New Year and the same to everyone else on this thread.
Foot Notes :jump

weary
12-30-2004, 19:07
Hey TJ, Now I can come up with lots of scenarios on who Lawman is, what he wants, why, where, and when. My mind doesn't work that way yet I know many play games on these forums. Oh well, I was hoping for peace, love, joy to end the old year and now I am thinking conspiracies LOL. Hope you have a Happy New Year and the same to everyone else on this thread. Foot Notes :jump
No need to be puzzled:
Birthday:
August 31, 1955
Location:
chesapeake, virginia
Biography:
Soon to be retired police officer of 26 years. Completed the AT in 2001 after thirteen years. Started it again.
Interests:
Avid backpacker, kickboxer, diver and sometime roadbiker
Occupation:
police officer

I hope this helps.

Weary

Footslogger
12-30-2004, 19:08
Amen. Like talking about WF makes it any easier to hike or makes your hike more enjoyable. Seems more likely the rants about him produce nothing and improve nothing. Go help someon critique their packing list ;)=========================
Good point Rock ...and just for the record, like or dislike the guy, he continues on. This stuff only appears to bother some people at Whiteblaze. It doesn't interfere with Wingfoot. His Handbook will still be carried by many hikers in 2005 and beyond.

Spend time and energy on your own hikes. Nuff said ...

'Slogger
AT 2003

attroll
12-30-2004, 20:52
Wingfoot created a format that speaks in an absolute way the etiquette and responsibility of hikers. He doesn't tolerate other opinions or debate the issues. It's his way or the highway. Having said that he has introduced important issues to an awful lot of hikers. When I hiked the LT in 99 I did it with only the misinformation I had learned in the military and scouting. My gear and my approach to hiking made it harder on the environment and me than it needed to be. In the course of my 99 hike other hikers told me about Wingfoots site. The issues discussed on Wingfoots site got me to rethink what I'd been doing. I agree with some of his opinions and disagree with others. The important thing was that he got me to change what I'd been doing. The odd thing is that when Winter, Tuk and I talked to him on his porch in 2000 he was very personable and easy to talk to. He talked about hikes that he'd made with most all the things that he rants about on his site. There was a lot more "hike your own hike" in person than on his site.

I appreciate the information that I got from his site but I didn't appreciate it when my journal got dumped before I got it copied.

Superman and Winter GA>ME 2000
What a bummer Superman. I can go back to his archives and can see almost everyones's journals except yours. Here is the link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20001205161200/trailplace.com/cgi-bin/miva?index_tp.mv+mode=Index&fileid=945585439

orangebug
12-30-2004, 21:07
This is a good reason to support website like WB and www.Trailjournals.Com

You have much more reason to anticipate that your journal will be around for awhile, that you and your friends will be able to access it in the future, and that impulsive actions will not cost you memories and other losses.

There is very much value to WF and TP, but also value in the breadth of resources on the internet for the AT. Hopefully, his guide will continue, as it is an almagam (sp?) of the Databook and other resources. We've come to anticipate that he misses production schedules from time to time.

weary
12-30-2004, 22:31
....We've come to anticipate that he misses production schedules from time to time.
I sense that that particular problem is behind Wingfoot now that he's discovered "books on demand," a more expensive means of book production, but one less likely to be influenced by changing fads.

I can appreciate his dilemma. In the 70s I wrote a home energy book at the height of the 1974 Arab oil boycott. It was a great book, I and my publisher thought. She printed 10,000 copies and dreamed of nationwide demand.

Unfortunately, publication was delayed, the embargo collapsed, along with oil prices. Demand as a result also collapsed. Sorry for the digression.

I'm only speculating. But I sense Wingfoot a few years ago misjudged the demand for his excellent trail guide, ran into financial difficulties and was unable to raise the money needed for publication.

The more recent issues cost more, but because books are only printed as demand comes in, the risk of such problems diminish. I think all innovative, pioneering, strong willed people from time to time experience unexpected setbacks. The wise among us move on to continue achieving.

Weary

bluebird
12-30-2004, 22:55
Really! That's my birthday! Pretty close in birth years but I'm not saying just how close, ha.ha.

I've been following this thread and find it interesting, not so much as do like or not like WF but as a study of human nature. We all seem to find our gods and then rip them to pieces :-) Look at how we (human) love to gossip about the king/queens in our sports, our movie stars, the managers at work.

Can't help but say that WF paid some dues (miles and blisters) and put himself out there. Yes, I've met him and have my own opinions. Anytime someone voices a strong opinion then open the door to criticism. The saying 'be careful what you wish for comes to mind'. On the other hand, always being in the spotlight does strange things to people.

My question is: 'How many times do you have to hike the AT to have everyone talking about you?' When do you become a god of the trail?

Bluebird FF '2001

MOWGLI
12-30-2004, 23:42
What a bummer Superman. I can go back to his archives and can see almost everyones's journals except yours. Here is the link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20001205161200/trailplace.com/cgi-bin/miva?index_tp.mv+mode=Index&fileid=945585439


Thanks ATTROLL. Although only the last 7 days of my journal are available at that link, that's 7 days of journal entries that I don't have to re-type. I'm currently in the process of transcribing my 2000 journal (formerly on trailplace) over to trailjournals.

If anyone has any tips on how I can find my entries between Jerry Cabin Shelter & Monson, I'd be greatly appreciative!!!

Jeffrey Hunter
aka Little Bear

attroll
12-30-2004, 23:59
Superman

Did you try getting ahold of Wingfoot and asking him for the entries?

Freighttrain
12-31-2004, 10:48
thanks for that link to the old wingfoot journals!! i had no idea my hike was still available!! thought it was gone forever

FreightTrain

Lobo
12-31-2004, 12:02
Thanks for finding my journal among the 300+ journals from 1997 to 2001 that were removed from TP because "most journals usually have very little about the history of the Trail, or the nature and land through which it passes, or the wonderful work of the people who built or volunteers who maintain the Trail for all of us." I tried to include all those aspects of the Trail in my journal, and when my journal was removed, I felt like I was being given detention with the rest of the class because a few others in the classroom misbehaved(I am a retired teacher). I have to admit that I poured over the 1997, 1998, & 1999 journals posted on TP and found them to be extremely valuable to me in planning my hike. At that time, TP was the only show in town.

Lobo
GA>ME
2000

superman
12-31-2004, 13:27
When my journal disappeared I called Wingfoot on the phone and offered to pay him to retrieve it. He said that he couldn't...that it was gone. It appears to still be gone since it won't come up in the trailplace archive. My journal was "Jim and Steve Thompson". My younger son Steve went as far as Gatlinburg with me. I hadn't intended to keep a journal but Steve insisted. He kept the journal until he went back to work but insisted that I keep the journal going. After I finished the AT I found out that my ex-mother-in-law had hung on every posting I'd made. She and I had planned to hike the AT when I got out of the service in 68. There had been a big article in our local newspaper about a guy who had thru hiked the AT that year. Instead of thru hiking I married her daughter and had kids. My ex-mother-in-law had been diagnosed with cancer in 98 and been given two years to live. She mailed me the original newspaper article that she had kept all those years and it re-lit the fire to thru-hike the AT. I summated 7 Oct 2000 and she passed away in January. I was told that she literally lived to read my journal entries and that she vicariously hiked the AT with me. I didn't find out about most of this until after it was too late.....and then the journal disappeared. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Wingfoot had never made any guarantees of duration or availability of our journals. It was a disappointment but in the greater scheme of things doesn't matter so much. What's done is done.


Superman and Winter GA>ME 2000

Mags
12-31-2004, 14:32
journals posted on TP and found them to be extremely valuable to me in planning my hike. At that time, TP was the only show in town.



Yep. Way back in the day (1997!), on-line journals of any sort.never mind on-line hiking journals, were rare. Funny how far we have come in 8 yrs. Blogs are common place. Seems anywho who does a thru-hike also has a corresponding journal.

Tim Rich
12-31-2004, 18:41
The first journal I intently followed was Curious George's in I believe '96 or '97. Well written, novel approach to use sandals during part of his hiking day, and he was a mile monster.

Rocks 'n Roots
01-01-2005, 01:44
Wingfoot saw a need to define what was important about the AT and promote it for the good of the Trail. I only wish he had continued doing so. Especially in the letter writing campaign department...

oldfivetango
01-06-2005, 09:35
:)Banned for life?!! Sheesh! Maybe you should do what I did and sneak in under
the radar with a different handle.WF bounced me out of his site for what i thought
was a really MINOR offense;you see i made a reference to his lack of tolerance and he lowered the boom on me.
But in the end it did not totally diminish my respect for who he is and what
he has done.In my book he has done MUCH more good than harm for the AT community.Yesterday I did send him a check for a 2005 Handbook.It will be interesting to see if he will take the money of a right wing extremist and Bush supporter like myself.
If he doesn't I will just have my bro-in-law order the book and reimburse him for it-
Mama always said that there is more than one way to skin a rabbit-HEHEH.
Now that I have found WB I won't be going back to his site because I can get
as much or more good information here and don't have to put up with the left-wing
extremist rant.Conversely I won't be expressing my political views to anyone here
except by private request.It's funny that WF and I do agree on alot of issues he has
raised in some of his editorial though.There is no way for me to tell him that,however,since he will not even speak to or associate with others who do not
"fall in line" and support his rhetoric;we call that narrow minded bigotry where i come from.
Oldfivetango

food
01-06-2005, 10:05
OldTangoFive,

I knew my post would get me banned, but I did not see the experience and and knowledge at his site that WB has. It could be considered a letter of resignation because I have no desire to return to his site.

I do have respect for his accomplishments and dedication. But I don't think he creates a hiker friendly environment.

I emailed to him before the election that we all had reasons to vote against Bush, but his efforts would be much more effective if he would post reasons to vote for Kerry. He just never "got it." Sad that he has all that passion but insisted on shooting himself in the foot.

Besides L Wolf alone is worth the price of admission here at WB. Hey, the rest of you aren't half bad either. :banana

Lone Wolf
01-06-2005, 10:08
Thanks food. :) Nice to be wanted. A fan club of one.

DavidNH
01-06-2005, 20:36
I belong to both sites..whiteblaze.net and trailplace.com both have lots of good information. Is it really true that I would be banned from trailplace.com if I where to mention whiteblaze.net? Do these two quality websites really need to compete against each other?

I must have missed the thread..why would any one be insulting wingfoot? His site is wonderful and has lots of quality information on the AT as does this one.

I don't get it guys.

NH Hiker.

SGT Rock
01-06-2005, 20:48
Well I don't know if you would be banned. I haven't beenthere in a long time and I do not know how he operates. But if you do mention this site it will be deleted. The moderaters of WhiteBlaze don't compete with TrailPlace. It just happens that a lot of people seemed to get banned from Trail Place and come here and vent and/or people that WF rubbed the wrong way also come here and vent about it. So occasionally we do get people trying to turn WhiteBlaze into the anti-Trail Place or something similar. I just figure we welcome just about anyone and let people say almost anything they want to. Let you decide if they are full of crap or if their opinion is valuable.

The Hog
01-06-2005, 21:17
I think we all have our ranting or venting moments at one time or another. I am seldom proud of mine and afterwards often remember the words of Lao Tzu: "Disputation is proof of not seeing clearly."

food
01-07-2005, 14:45
I was banned from his site for an "I told you so" and not an insult.

I wish him well and have heard good things about his book. He is hiking again in 2005. Maybe that will mellow him out.

walkin' wally
01-07-2005, 14:52
What usualy happens to a web site when the webmaster goes on an extended leave of absence? Just curious

SGT Rock
01-07-2005, 18:36
Depends on how the site is set up. There are web pages like wings that haven't been maintained in years but are still up. A forum will just about run itself with the right software even without a moderator. Occasionally there may be issues that would require intervention, but that might not happen for months or years. The more important issue is paying the bills to keep the site rolling.

attroll
01-07-2005, 23:47
Wow. Does that mean we can all log back onto his web site while he is thru-hiking and will not get kicked off? He will probably check his web site in all the trail towns he stops in. He better not induldge in any trail magic. Remember he is totally against it.

steve hiker
01-08-2005, 00:00
Wow. Does that mean we can all log back onto his web site while he is thru-hiking and will not get kicked off? He will probably check his web site in all the trail towns he stops in. He better not induldge in any trail magic. Remember he is totally against it.
He'll probably have one of his gay buddies patrol the site while he's on the trail, with a blacklist of persona non grata.

SGT Rock
01-08-2005, 00:32
If I only attempted to give trail magic but no hikers showed up, am Iguilt of conspiracy to perform trail magic?

oldfivetango
01-08-2005, 09:38
Wow. Does that mean we can all log back onto his web site while he is thru-hiking and will not get kicked off? He will probably check his web site in all the trail towns he stops in. He better not induldge in any trail magic. Remember he is totally against it.
LOL ATTROLL-he kicked me off! YOu TOO?!
cheers.
Oldfivetango:banana

oldfivetango
01-08-2005, 09:47
Thanks food. :) Nice to be wanted. A fan club of one. MAke that TWO sir.
Oldfivetango:D

Deafsmart
08-12-2005, 20:56
After I read halfway on compartive and restraint rants on this man in this thread, I went over to tp.com (which I haven't bother for 2 weeks. I am shock at one of my post started by NWFLHillBilly (http://www.trailplace.com/portal/thread.php?id=3931) I interpret this as a threat; I would steer my chiildren away from this pure sick-mind wacko who wants us to see his thinly clothes garment at his website. There is no such thing as "we'; I seriously cast doubt if anyone work for him. Outset of his cruelity and rude remark but abide only to his very own, will have serious ramification along Appalachian Mountain region.

For the record: I never stated what political platform I am in. It seems this man in egotistic vain has text-blinded (oppose of being color-blind). His background, mentioned elsewhere, sum to all passage of wording and the very description of false god of AT is fitting. Don't bother to buy his book, instead, do plan on get Appalachian Trail Thru-Hikers' Companion, (http://www.aldha.org/companyn.htm) (and you can also download free The Online Companion (http://www.aldha.org/comp_pdf.htm). Not-for Profit Organization (The Appalachian Long Distance Hikers Association-off-trail family of fellow hikers) or For Profit Organization (The Center for Appalachian Trail Studies-specialty publishing house and information clearinghouse), take your pick.

Now to the floor show: (http://www.trailplace.com/portal/thread.php?id=3931)

f you support George W. Bush, you really aren't welcome here unless you keep your mouth shut about him. That's my personal decision as webmaster. On the A.T. I don't talk about politics, but this isn't the Trail but instead a website offered at no cost to users, so I set the rules.

Apart from the fact that Bush is an environmental disaster, the reason I don't like Bush is that I don't like liars, here on Trailplace or in the White House. You know how you can tell that GWB is lying? His lips are moving.

As for Republicans, I remember when the Republican Party really stood for decency and honor, but that went out the door with Ronald Reagan, who was a poor excuse for a president, and GWB is even worse. There are still some decent Republicans who do not like Bush, and I sympathize with them.

If you are gay or HIV+, feel free to say so here. I wouldn't ask a married couple to hide their marriage, or a cancer patient to hide their disease, and I don't expect gays to hide who they are either. There are some who may not like it, but they can get over it or leave.

I hope this is clear enough.

______________________________
George W. Bush says America is at war. However, Bush himself isn't. Instead, he is enjoying a leisurely 5-week vacation on his ranch in Texas. So far, during this Bush vacation (he's taken the most vacations of any U.S. president ever), 46 American soldiers and marines have died in Iraq!Hump, what a noisemaker :rolleyes:

Deafsmart
08-12-2005, 21:03
If I couldn't find a way to cancel/close my Trailplace account, he would have kick me out anyhow. I am done for today.
After I read halfway on compartive and restraint rants on this man in this thread, I went over to tp.com (which I haven't bother for 2 weeks. I am shock at one of my post started by NWFLHillBilly (http://www.trailplace.com/portal/thread.php?id=3931) I interpret this as a threat; I would steer my chiildren away from this pure sick-mind wacko who wants us....

Needles
08-12-2005, 22:44
I interpret this as a threat

I looked at the quote and the referenced thread over and over again. WF said something that you interpret as a threat? Am I understanding you correctly?

I can see where he stated his opinions about George Bush, something that we have the right to do in the USA, and I can see where he states that anyone who wants to praise Bush isn't welcome on his site, you might think he is an ass for feeling this way, but hey, it is his site, but I can't find anything at all threatening in anything that he said.

If you did find something threatening in WF's statements then you might very well be the most paranoid person I have met, heck you might be even more paranoid than WF himself ;)

Don't all of you who love to bash WF realize that by doing so all you have really managed to do is give trailplace some free advertising?

Nightwalker
08-12-2005, 23:01
:welcome

You want to read insults here. Just say you hike with a dog and watch the insults fly. Oops, gotta go....incoming!:bse
While carrying a gun and a cell-phone...

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-13-2005, 19:10
This ( and the posts found when searching for "Wingfoot") was enlightening. I bought his 2003 book in preparation for the section hiking. I was thinking of getting the 2006 version, but have changed my mind. Could anyone recommend an alternative? I know there is one on the Net, but I'd like to have a tote-able printed version.

Lone Wolf
08-13-2005, 19:36
The Thru-Hikers Companion www.aldha.org

max patch
08-13-2005, 20:37
This ( and the posts found when searching for "Wingfoot") was enlightening.

Don't believe everything you read. Especially on the internet.

attroll
08-13-2005, 21:45
Just like Max Patch said "Don't believe everyhting you read about Wingfoot". I have chatted with the guy and he seems like a real nice guy. I have never had any real issues with him. I don't agree with how he does some things. But that is his choice and his life and that is how he wishes to do things. I think everyone has there own quirks that others don't like. Sometimes I wonder if the internet did not exist would be still be talking bad about Wingfoot? I doubt it. The only reason we all seem to talk bad about him is because of how he runs his web site. If he did not run a web site then I sometimes I wonder, would we have anything to complain about him, would we?

Don't get me wrong here I am not taking sides just making a statement.

SGT Rock
08-13-2005, 22:03
Just to add to that, although I am an ALDHA member and a supporter of them, I personally feel that the Thru-Hiker handbook's lay out it better than the Companion lay out. You can make the decision not to buy WFs book because you don't like him, that is always anyones business. I've also chatted with WF and I like him for the most part, I just think he needs another partner admin like I do to keep me in check :D

Hopefully someday ALDHA makes either another book, or changes the lay out of the Companion.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-13-2005, 22:16
Guys, it was the stuff on his site that lead to my decision. This site just pointed me to his site.

Sly
08-13-2005, 22:51
Hopefully someday ALDHA makes either another book, or changes the lay out of the Companion.

For the most part, the data in either book is public domain and to my knowledge isn't copyrightable. I suggest the ALDHA Companion use the same format, with mileage details upfront and town/resupply and flora and fauna info in the back.

Sure it will be a rip-off, but no more so then WF did when he used databook to change his format.

I'd also get rid of the spriral binding and make the mileage info and each town section seperately bound and easily pulled from the main binding.

SGT Rock
08-13-2005, 23:02
For the most part, the data in either book is public domain and to my knowledge isn't copyrightable. I suggest the ALDHA Companion use the same format, with mileage details upfront and town/resupply and flora and fauna info in the back.

Sure it will be a rip-off, but no more so then WF did when he used databook to change his format.

I'd also get rid of the spriral binding and make the mileage info and each town section seperately bound and easily pulled from the main binding.
I tend to agree with your assessment Sly. It took me about 10 minutes to figure out how the Companion even worked the first time I picked it up. I would like to see a lay out that had the data for the stuff exactly how you see it with the miles as you go along, sort of how WF did the 2002 guide. I also think that the ATC would be happy to support ALDHA since they give money from their sales of the Companion back to the ATC.

Mostly what I would like to see is a database where people can select the level of detail and lay out they prefer and then print off their own book for their hiking style, but that is another subject.

digger51
08-13-2005, 23:08
While I dont agree with WFs political and social views. he does put together a good trail guide. I have bought his book every year Ive hiked since 1999, and will continue to buy it until someone else can put one together that gives all the info in a readable format like his.

Sly
08-13-2005, 23:19
I also think that the ATC would be happy to support ALDHA since they give money from their sales of the Companion back to the ATC.


Even though I've been a member for almost 10 years, I'm not exactly sure of the relationship and how the money works but the ATC publishes the Companion, so there's definitely a common interest.

I don't believe they'd be a problem if the Companion incorporated the Databook and each could be sold seperately as they do now.

I'm most likely going to miss this years Gathering, but perhaps I can have someone make the suggestions at the general meeting.

Ridge
08-15-2005, 00:14
Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by FatMan
:welcome

You want to read insults here. Just say you hike with a dog and watch the insults fly. Oops, gotta go....incoming!:bse
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


While carrying a gun and a cell-phone...

...and hiking with Warren Doyle's group while using WF's "Trail Companion"!!!


I believe an entire website could be dedicated to the bashing/flaming of WF and Warren. By the way, I would be banned from WF's site for this posting.

fiddlehead
08-15-2005, 00:38
I'm most likely going to miss this years Gathering, but perhaps I can have someone make the suggestions at the general meeting.
Slyman how could you??? I don't remember going to a gathering without seeing you since about '94. It definitely won't feel the same. I thought hard about not going because they tried to outlaw beer last year but i think they won't try that at Dartmouth. If they do, it'll be my last one too.
Or maybe it's the gas prices. I have to go to (work) a festival in southern NH and hope to have Rainman pick me up so i won't be using too much fuel. If you could get up to PA you could come along if you like. If not, we'll sure miss you.

Sly
08-15-2005, 01:22
Slyman how could you??? I don't remember going to a gathering without seeing you since about '94.

Would like to go and almost made arrangements, but I'll just be getting back from the JMT and ALDHA West Gathering.

We'll see, I may be able to pull it off yet! ;)

MedicineMan
08-15-2005, 03:28
if not for him then WB wouldnt thrive a it does.
also think of what WF could have done...kinda like the Jews versus the Arabs, the Arabs have recieved billions and billions of dollars and what have they done with it besides killing and teaching to kill....versus the jews who have taken a worthless piece of land and turned it into an oasis. WF could have done so much for the AT (OK maybe he did do something) but failed because of an attitude to realize what he could have done.
And back to Sgt Rocks comment on a customizable downloadable printable Trail Guide---isnt that a mission of the Articles Section here at WB???

Sly
08-15-2005, 08:03
if not for him then WB wouldnt thrive a it does.
also think of what WF could have done...kinda like the Jews versus the Arabs, .....

Did you think of this all by yourself or have the help of mind altering drugs?

SGT Rock
08-15-2005, 08:45
And back to Sgt Rocks comment on a customizable downloadable printable Trail Guide---isnt that a mission of the Articles Section here at WB???
Not really. The articles could serve as some of the filler info that goes in the front of most guides and could also make some good "spot" info in places. With the idea I have, a user of whiteblaze could download the article and print it out to add to their database.

What I am talking about is a database that has it's own program for viewing, or could be imported into another program like Access or Access viewer, or some other program. for the database part it would only need be a CSV file or something similar. I've set up some fairly large databases in the past and think this is an easy to set up thing. The hard part would be entering in all the data intially, then enforcing a system within the ATC to keep it up to date. Maybe with the tech-savy new guys that just got on-board it could be done.

What I would like to see is the ATC take all that data they have about the trail and things along it that is listed in the section guides they put out, and arrange it all in one database with a key record that is "Miles_from_Springer" or "Miles_from_Katahdin" so that it all can be sorted out correctly. Then every entry would have attributes in other record fields such as water, campsite, road crossing, etc. Then take the data that is in the Companion that gives more detail about towns and shelter and make those special details fields for the items in the database. So now you have built a big honking database about the trail from end to end. The system benefits the ATC because now when they go to update trail guides and books, the local chapter can simply send them the new database entries to go into the trail database. Revisions of the new books can come directly from the database.

The database could be sold with certain rights - like the right to print and use the data for your own purposes only, no commercial use. And there could also be a commercial use version which would simply be a more expensive package that includes what usage the ATC allows you to do commercially with the info - so say if Baltimore Jack was planning to write his own preparation guide but not a full up guide and include data from the database, his cost would be lower then say a user like WF who wants to basically take the database and re-print it with his own data added.

The database should include a few different pre-set print formats for size and lay out so the user can choose how big and in what format they want their guide.

So now you have a database and certain rights to use it and you can select how you want it put together. So what do you do with it? Well some people want only a companion style book with maybe road crossings added, and they only plan to hike from Davenport Gap to Erwin. So they can select the level of detail they want for a trail guide, tell it what section to print out, and print it in whatever lay out they want - say alternating data and blank pages so they can make journal notes about sections as they travel - and have it in a top bound 4.25"x5.5" flip book style.

Another hiker may want water, town, and roads but not want shelters. That hiker may be doing a thru hike and can print out his guide in sections to meet his mail drop schedule and map sections and do so in a small 3"x5" notecard style front to back.

Another user may be a section hiker only worried about water and special points like blue-blaze trails and cool spots like Charlie's Bunion. That user may also be site impaired and want a big print version 8.5" x 11".

And the price - about $5. The same price they charge for the databook for just one user. This allows them to make the same money per sale without the printing costs. They could still offer the guidebooks for the section hikers to just buy, and the Databook as well. And if you make it available for on-line download after paying - you save shipping costs too. Make the limited commercial use version something like $100 and the commercial use be about $500 with a sales based add on (that may be a little harder to enforce).

Footslogger
08-15-2005, 10:22
I believe that dog will hunt Rock. Especially helpful is the fact that the user can print out all or some of the data and in any order they desire. Truth is ...you wouldn't have to make the entire database available to every hiker though. You could offer it as feature of membership in ALDHA or ATC. Bump the annual dues enough to cover the cost and let each member download/printout the section(s) they need or want ...some or all.

This reminds me a bit of the trend in documentation from electronics manufactuers these days. You logon to their website, enter your validation code and pull the ops manual down to your computer. Then you're free to review it on-line or print out some/all of the pages.

'Slogger

SGT Rock
08-15-2005, 10:50
I believe that dog will hunt Rock. Especially helpful is the fact that the user can print out all or some of the data and in any order they desire. Truth is ...you wouldn't have to make the entire database available to every hiker though. You could offer it as feature of membership in ALDHA or ATC. Bump the annual dues enough to cover the cost and let each member download/printout the section(s) they need or want ...some or all.

This reminds me a bit of the trend in documentation from electronics manufactuers these days. You logon to their website, enter your validation code and pull the ops manual down to your computer. Then you're free to review it on-line or print out some/all of the pages.

'Slogger
Oh I know it will 'Slogger. I came up with the thought a while back when working with a database I created for my troop using Microsloth Access. When the Army issued me a PDA and I was looking to use it as a hiking tool, I created a Access database for a section of the AT and made it exportable to my PDA and it actually did exactly what I am talking about. So you could stuff like select only shelters, and it could display just the shelter data. You could select laundry facilities and it would show only the laundry facilities for the section of trail you desired. Made planning a breeze. That is when I came up with the printing options idea - because not everyone wants to see it on the same display.

It would be VERY easy to set up the database to work in Access and include pre-made reports and queries to allow the user to select what they want. The harder part (at least for me) is setting up the different pre-set print options and programing a macro for a control panel to make interface easier. There are some bubbas out there that have more kung-fu when it comes to this though.

The absolute hardest part for any one individual would be getting the data together and proof reading it. If I were king for a day at the ATC I would get about 14 volunteers to start doing the data entry after the tables and fields were created. Each one would start with a state, and when the ones with smaller states finished, they could start helping people with the bigger states like VA. This project could be done in a year with the right help.

And think of this: since some programs, like Access, allow you to import tables, making a WhiteBlaze add on table would be easy. You could take Jack's re-supply article and add a new set of custom queries and reports that could be attached to the original ATC database. The key field would simply have to match. This way someone could add Jack's resupply article to their database and have it included at the correct spots in the lay out of their custom guide instead of having it all in one place in the back of the book (unless that is what they want). You could also have a couple of blocks for user input data so someone could customize a guide by adding info like "Camp here day 1" or type in some info that they learned here on Whiteblaze that is specific to that guide entry. Plus the Boy scouts could have an add on database for their stuff. WF could sell a database add in for TP followers. GPS nuts could create an add in for grid coordinates info to everything on the trail. It would be pandelirium! :eek:

And your idea about having it available for members. Wow, I never thought of that, but it makes perfect sense. BUT, if I were to do it that way, I might not have the price so high. Since a lot of members never use the Databook, maybe only raise fees by $1, or have a special membership level called "Tech Savvy" that gives the member access to the database. Heck, I would let ATC figure the best way to get that egg out of the shell based on their needs. And since you mentioned it, Maybe ALDHA would be a better organization to do this and offer it. They already have the experience with the Companion

Footslogger
08-15-2005, 11:04
[QUOTE=SGT Rock]And your idea about having it available for members. Wow, I never thought of that, but it makes perfect sense.
========================================
One of the main reasons for doing it that way would be updating. The database stored at ALDHA, ATC or wherever could be updated whenever new information is received from hikers and validated. Each section would have a "last updated on" date so that a hiker would always know if they had the latest version.

It's water over the dam now so I'll share with you that a couple years before my thru I had an idea along these lines. It was inspired by the AAA Trip Ticks I used to get for car trips across the USA. I met with the muckety-mucks at AAA and shared my idea. They shyed away from it because it didn't fall in line with their charter. But I still think that sort of idea would fly. With a system like that, each hiker could assemble their own handbook for a hike, be it a section or the entire AT. Each page would be a map section with a fold out that contained info on water sources, shelters, town data and etc.

Personally, I have about 7 or 8 years of AT Handbooks on my shelf right now. Something like this would replace the whole "buy a new one each year" process and allow you to keep a manual in loose leaf format, replacing sections as they are updated in the database.

As with anything though ...getting the original database assembled will be the challenge. The more people involved the longer it will take.

'Slogger

SGT Rock
08-15-2005, 11:14
Well I tell you what I would be willing to do. I would be willing to set up a concept database (when I could get some free time) using my 2005 data book and a GA Trail guide, the ATC companion section, and Microsoft Access as the program. Once the initial concept is finished and a few users manhandle it to find some errors, we could make a WhiteBlaze on-line collaboration where folks that would be interested could do a section. It might take a while and quite a few users, but I think it could get done. And as an ALDHA and ATC member, I would gladly contribute the effort to either or both of those fine organizations to take it over as a project for continuity. A field editor could simply send in the new data, as I am sure they already do, and the data could be pasted over the older data in the databook.

As I sit here thinking about it. The level of town data could also be changed based on user needs. Imagine someone like Flash Hand or Deafsmart going into a town and having the ability to have good info for Deaf hikers in their version. And the opposite could be said for hikers that don't care about certain town things, they could choose to omit hostel data if they so choose in order make their version smaller or whatever.

SGT Rock
08-15-2005, 11:41
I just split off a copy of part of this thread and made a new one over in the Media section for those interested in talking about guidebooks.