Anyone know why the AT Thru-Hikers companion was taken offline?

[WisconsinHiker2011]

http://www.aldha.org/companyn.htm

I own a copy of the 2011 version, but it is nice to read it online when I am at school and do not have my physical copy.


Now it gives a 404 error and they say they are debating if it should come back online.

http://www.aldha.org/comp_pdf.htm

[TheChop]

Taking it out of electronic format is a mistake.

[Gipsy]

I was wondering the same thing. I will be watching this thread to find out, myself.

[Helios]

"We are currently reviewing our policy toward the online version of the Companion, so as of Jan. 26 the files have been taken down from the site. We will post news about the status of the online Companion as soon as the ALDHA board reaches a decision"

Interesting.... I, too, enjoy reading the online version from time to time at work. Dang, guess I'll start bringing my AT guide with me!

[Lone Wolf]

they finally figured out they were losing money. why buy a book if you can get the info for free?

[Roland]

Easy solution. Start charging for the download.

There are enough people carrying electronic devices on the Trail that there is a market for an electronic trail guide.

[TheChop]

Easy solution. Start charging for the download.

There are enough people carrying electronic devices on the Trail that there is a market for an electronic trail guide.

Agreed. I would certainly pay $20 for the ability to download the pdf's or access an article containing the information. Books are the one thing I like having physical copies of but even that is probably going to change in two to three years. Ones and zeroes take up a lot less space.

[leaftye]

If they release it electronically, hopefully they offer it as a pdf, or a pdf and other formats.

[TJ aka Teej]

Speaking as a long time volunteer field editor I have to say this is both a surprise and disappointment.
I wonder when the Board was going to tell us?

[RGB]

Damn. I use that for all of my section hikes. Time to buy an old guide used to ensure they get no profit from me.

[10-K]

Damn. I use that for all of my section hikes. Time to buy an old guide used to ensure they get no profit from me.

I guess that's a notch better than pirating a pdf copy if one should become available. :)

[balloonatic]

it seams to me the easy solution is if you buy the book you get a pin for the pdf file. I just bought that book and the condenced one. both from there website, and i was looking forward to have the electric copy for my smart phone.
balloonatic

[Rain Man]

Have to admit that I am often offended at the blind-side, ambush tactics adopted and used by some as a corporate decision-making and implementation model.

Having said that, why not give paid-members a PIN to access the guide online? ALDHA gets well-deserved revenue, and those who are not blood-sucking leeches get their e-version. :D

Rain:sunMan

.

[10-K]

Having said that, why not give paid-members a PIN to access the guide online? ALDHA gets well-deserved revenue, and those who are not blood-sucking leeches get their e-version.

.


I'm not savvy as to who the ALDHA has available but implementing this would take a bit of programming and would cost a fair amount.

That is unless it's a very weak PIN system - like where everyone has the same PIN but then what's the point?

[4eyedbuzzard]

The online Companion
We are currently reviewing our policy toward the online version of the Companion, so as of Jan. 26 the files have been taken down from the site. We will post news about the status of the online Companion as soon as the ALDHA board reaches a decision.

Actually, to be more accurate, I'd say they've already changed their policy regarding online access, as the Companion is no longer available online. If they were only reviewing the policy, no change would yet have taken place. What they are now reviewing is if this new policy will include online access.

Yeah, semantics.

[RGB]

I guess that's a notch better than pirating a pdf copy if one should become available. :)

And it will, inevitably. I found a few sections saved to my external. I know my frequent hiking partner has the whole thing saved. I'm a spiteful consumer. :cool:

[flemdawg1]

I think 2 years ago they would put last year's copy on the web for free, and if you wanted the current year you'd have to buy it. Last year they put the current one up on the web. If they are worried about saving profits, they could just go back to doing it the old way.

Or create a membership login and only members get the online version. I'd donate 5-20 bucks to ATC, if I got the companion online as a benefit. However $35 seems a it steep just for that.

[TheChop]

That is unless it's a very weak PIN system - like where everyone has the same PIN but then what's the point?

For an esoteric book like the companion it wouldn't be a problem. There is a certain ethic involved here that this is a non-profit entity and a work made from volunteer efforts. You could easily e-mail it to members who requested it. Finding it on file sharing sites, etc. would be problematic for anyone who wanted to try. People would distribute the files via e-mail on a limited basis but it would be moderately difficult for the casual user to get.

It's like mp3s of that obscure punk band you like from 1983. Yes you might be able to get the files for free. You would have to go through a whole lot of trouble to do so and if you could just go onto Amazon and pay $6 to download them you would.

[Pedaling Fool]

I remember sometime ago questioning the business practice of placing the
Companion online and being lambasted about my ignorance of business. It really scarred me; does anyone want to apologize:D

[Carbo]

The ALDHA board discussion will probably go along the following track:

The old-timers are going to scream like hell if we charge for this, but they only have a few more good years ahead of them so they will drop off the radar pretty soon. All the new hikers will think this is a good deal and gladly pay for the info.

My view: if they show their costs vs revenue and the organization is truly in a bad financial state, I will gladly pay. If someone is just getting greedy, screw em!

[max patch]

Good idea in theory, but like naked pictures of Megan Fox that PIN number will be all over the internet.

[flemdawg1]

I remember sometime ago questioning the business practice of placing the
Companion online and being lambasted about my ignorance of business. It really scarred me; does anyone want to apologize:D

We're sorry...





..that you're a jackas5. :D
Mom was right, I do feel much better.

[TheChop]

Good idea in theory, but like naked pictures of Megan Fox that PIN number will be all over the internet.

I know it's fashionable to say that you can find anything on the internet but it's really not true. Naked pictures of Megan Fox are something a lot of people really want to see. The AT guide has a very limited audience. Even if you say there's 10 times as many section hikers as thru hikers you end up with 30,000. If you're even more generous and say 50,000 people are in the market for the book you shouldn't have the mass needed to proliferate the files. Out of that 50,000 a certain percent aren't tech savy, another percent are morally opposed to file sharing, another percent would download if they could but they're not going to buy it and put it out there. This is not the kind of book you find on torrent sites.

I would go so far as to say they could simply hand out a non-indexed link to the files and they wouldn't lose over ten sales to it.

[Smile]

Very easy for them to sell a version online, that can be downloaded once, the link can expire in 24, 48, whatever they would choose, and you could have it electronically or in a PDF.

Bottom line, give it away online - no incentive for folks to buy the book. :)

[RGB]

I will purchase an online version if they put naked pictures of Megan Fox in it.

[Pedaling Fool]

We're sorry...





..that you're a jackas5. :D
Mom was right, I do feel much better.
NO...don't apologize for that here, that's a different thread.:)

[fredmugs]

Even when they only put out the previous version I was shocked it was free. Honestly how much does the trail change year to year? Maybe some costs change a little and a hostel or two may open or close the things I'm looking for (mileage, food, water, shelter) are pretty consistent.

I'm just glad I saved the pdf files for my hikes this year because I plan to finish it up.

Does anyone know where you can get this type of info on the PCT?

[the goat]

Does anyone know where you can get this type of info on the PCT?

yogi's PCT guide

http://www.pcthandbook.com/

[Slo-go'en]

Bottom line, give it away online - no incentive for folks to buy the book. :)

That is not really true. I think most people who are actually going out and hiking the trail will still want a printed copy. You don't have to worry about batteries going dead, the e-reader getting wet, breaking or being stolen.

The pdf version is good for planing at home and seeing if the info in the book is worth buying the printed copy.

[RedneckRye]

Several ALDHA board members are occasionally here on Whiteblaze, maybe we'll get some word from them. I'd guess there will be no change from the current policy until the Spring Steering Committee Meeting.

There is also this on the ALDHA site...

E-mail comments, suggestions, etc., to [email protected]

[Jack Tarlin]

*I have been an ALDHA member for many years.
*I have contributed in one form or another to the Companion for many years.
*I have said, for a very long time, that it's crazy for the organization to give
this information away for free.
*That the Companion has been available for years, in a free On-Line version,
is swell. I'm sure this has helped a lot of folks. And maybe some of them
liked the On-line version enough that they went out and bought a real copy.
*But the fact that this policy has cost ALDHA a lot of money is not debatable.
*There are now two annual A.T. handbooks available; there used to be three.
What ALDHA needs to do is figure out ways to improve its book to the point
where people want to go out and buy it. Competition on a free market is a
good thing; it ultimately benefits the consumer. The best way for ALDHA to
bump up sales of their annual Trail guide is to start producing a better book,
i.e. one that is better; easier on the eye; lighter; more accurate; and more
attractive to the potential buyer than their present one.

Note to Fred Mugs: No, the Trail doesn't really change that much from year to year. But if you show up at a shelter spot on a rainy night with a bum leg, only to discover that the shelter was torn down and re-located 2 years previously, you'll sure wish you'd bought a current guidebook. Or if you get off the Trail and spend an hour and a half hitching on some tiny road in Central Virginia only to discover that both the anticipated re-supply store AND the hostel aren't there anymore.....you'll wish you had a current Trail guide. Or you get to a town, get a motel room, and then find out that everyone else is staying a block away at a newer, friendlier, much cheaper place.......once again, you'll wish you'd had that information. In short, hikers should seek out the best and most current, up-to-date info they can get, and it's incumbent on the folks who produce the annual guides to make sure that this information is provided.

[Doctari]

I just hope that they keep the "Updates" on, last year they had Franklin as Trail WEST, when everyone knows it's trail EAST.
As usual, I blame it all (Anything bad on or regarding the AT) on the ATC executive board.

[Rain Man]

Actually, to be more accurate, I'd say they've already changed their policy regarding online access, as the Companion is no longer available online. If they were only reviewing the policy, no change would yet have taken place. What they are now reviewing is if this new policy will include online access.

Yeah, semantics.

No, much more than semantics. Words are representatives of thoughts and actions. When the words used don't match the thought or action, that's more than semantics.

Whoever wrote it was not a wordsmith, or just got sloppy. It happens. But, as I bet you do, I cut folks slack on such as this.

Rain:sunMan

.

[Smile]

That is not really true. I think most people who are actually going out and hiking the trail will still want a printed copy. You don't have to worry about batteries going dead, the e-reader getting wet, breaking or being stolen.

The pdf version is good for planing at home and seeing if the info in the book is worth buying the printed copy.

I definately prefer a printed copy, but it is true they can easily put it for sale on line if they chose to.

PDF's can be printed on a per page basis as well. But there is nothing like having a bound book in your hand. As far as books on kindle, ereader, etc. definately not attractive to this hiker. Batteries are heavy! :)

It's fun to order books online, and have them arrive, like a surprise little gift to open in the mail, plus it's a good to $upport.

[Graywolf]

Looks to me like another NoN-Profit organization going Profit..

Ok, that said,

I like the free online version and heres why, Until now, I did not know when I would do a thru. The online version gave me the chance of looking at reloctaions and information while planning and to read, without buying a handbook year to year. Unitl I go on a Thru..

Now that I am going in 2012, I would be much better to buy the handbook as I would actually be using it for the trail. I NEED it now.. but then, I didnt, it was good reading material..

I say go with the old format. Put the last year (or even the previous years) book on pdf, and charge for the new years book.. Tahts the way I see and thee ae other Non for profit companies out there who do it that way..

I would just hate to see a fine organization turn greedy.. thats all.

[Ironbelly]

Non-profit's have to generate funds to be able to do what they do. I was very surprised to see that it was free for download as well up until now. I fully believe they should charge something for it.

I know volunteers do the vast majority of the work, but supplies cost money. And the only way to get money for a non-profit is either by donation or selling a service or product. Shelter repairs/rebuilds, trail maintenance, bridge repairs, trail reroutes, caretakers and ridgerunners, etc all cost something. Just because a volunteer works for free doesn't mean they will pony up X dollars to repair a shelter all the time.

If you are someone who believes it should be free then remember; You can never get something for nothing.

[Jack Tarlin]

I suspect this has nothing to do with a "non-profit trying to go profit".

ALDHA's never been about money or making money.

I suspect it's merely a case of an organization being taken advantage of for years and people using their work/services for free, and they're tired of it.

Funny thing. Where I live, everyone talks about how willing they are to support local stores; bookshops; independent outfitters; etc. They're all willing, so they say, to pay more in order to support these places and keep them going.

Funny thing is that reality interfered and many of these places in my community are gone, precisely because local people would NOT support them, or would rather save a few bucks getting something for cheap on line.....or in cases like the Companion, would rather get something for free on-line.

This isn't about a non-profit turning money-grubby after decades of giving stuff away for free. All they're saying is hey.....if you like this and think it's worth something, pay for it. If you don't, well buy something else. But the fact that ALDHA has given it's information and knowledge away for free for years does not mean that it's obligated to do this forever.

[generoll]

there's a phrase that comes to mind, "no margin, no mission". Non-profit doesn't mean free, it just means that the revenue goes back into the organization to help it fulfill its' mission. Assuming there are no shareholders receiving dividends, then it's basically not for profit.

having said that, I agree that it was very useful to be able to go online and get fairly recent data when planning a section hike. The trail between Hot Springs and Erwin had a major relocation about 45 years ago and my AT guide was a couple of years out of date. I passed up the shelter north of Allen Gap and ended up spending the night in the rain with a makeshift leanto. Two lessons learned, get updated info and always carry a shelter.

[TheChop]

*That the Companion has been available for years, in a free On-Line version,
is swell. I'm sure this has helped a lot of folks. And maybe some of them
liked the On-line version enough that they went out and bought a real copy.
*But the fact that this policy has cost ALDHA a lot of money is not debatable.


Where are the stats on this? Where is the drop off in sales when relative to growth and number of thru hikers? If the reason for doing this is to compete with AWOL then how is removing what is arguably a feature and a great one at that somehow helping make it a better guide?

The companion being available for free online is not only a great source of information for the hiking public but should be part and parcel of the organization's mission. If the ALDHA was concerned about bringing in more necessary revenue it seems they could reap a bonanza by having an REI or LL Beam sponsor the book. It's a book of trail services not equipment recommendations and should not present a substantial conflict of interest. This is a little like a soup kitchen deciding they're going to charge $7 a head because they're losing a ton of money giving away meals for free.

[Skidsteer]

This is a little like a soup kitchen deciding they're going to charge $7 a head because they're losing a ton of money giving away meals for free.

I think you're confusing non-profit and not-for-profit but in order to stop the sniveling here's one last chance. Y'all get you some while it lasts:

[TheChop]

I think you're confusing non-profit and not-for-profit but in order to stop the sniveling here's one last chance. Y'all get you some while it lasts:

Sniveling? Really is that called for? I'm just putting out the reasons I think having it online and at least in an electronic format is desirable and how that helps and benefits the greatest use of the trail.

[sheepdog]

Sniveling? Really is that called for? I'm just putting out the reasons I think having it online and at least in an electronic format is desirable and how that helps and benefits the greatest use of the trail.
don't start getting all sensitive


it's ok :D

[Monkeyboy]

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Skidsteer]

Sniveling? Really is that called for? I'm just putting out the reasons I think having it online and at least in an electronic format is desirable and how that helps and benefits the greatest use of the trail.

No offense meant. You've not heard the expression, I take it? :D

[kanga]

Sniveling? Really is that called for? I'm just putting out the reasons I think having it online and at least in an electronic format is desirable and how that helps and benefits the greatest use of the trail.
jesus, put your big boy pants on and just say thank you.

[tawa]

No such thing as a free lunch---Economics 101

[Monkeyboy]

There is such a thing as a free lunch - Soup Kitchen 101

[Rain Man]

Non-profit's have to generate funds to be able to do what they do. I was very surprised to see that it was free for download as well up until now. I fully believe they should charge something for it.

Is "they" ALDHA or the ATC?

Rain:sunMan

.

[TheChop]

I already had the 2010 guide downloaded but anyone pointing out the advantages of having it online is obviously just looking for a hand out.

[Monkeyboy]

is "they" aldha or the atc?

Rain:sunman

.

aldha........

[Skidsteer]

I already had the 2010 guide downloaded but anyone pointing out the advantages of having it online is obviously just looking for a hand out.

Oh for crying out loud.

I didn't upload it just for you. It was pulled abruptly with no notice so here's a last chance for people to download the latest copy.

Sheesh.

[Monkeyboy]

I already had the 2010 guide downloaded but anyone pointing out the advantages of having it online is obviously just looking for a hand out.

Who said that?

Others said that they understood that they were looking into charging for it, which is their right.

However, I don't see why they took it down just to talk it over. Just leave it up, as they normally had, until they make the decision to leave it up or take it down.

[RGB]

I think you're confusing non-profit and not-for-profit but in order to stop the sniveling here's one last chance. Y'all get you some while it lasts:

Thanks! Couldn't have downloaded that fast enough.

[Monkeyboy]

Oh for crying out loud.

I didn't upload it just for you. It was pulled abruptly with no notice so here's a last chance for people to download the latest copy.

Sheesh.

But did you upload it just for me.

If not........I might snivel.

[Skidsteer]

Thanks! Couldn't have downloaded that fast enough.

You're welcome.

[J5man]

Oh for crying out loud.

I didn't upload it just for you. It was pulled abruptly with no notice so here's a last chance for people to download the latest copy.

Sheesh.

Thanks. But could you change the font to a smaller one and widen the margins so when I print it out it won't be on so many pages? :D

[Skidsteer]

But did you upload it just for me.

If not........I might snivel.

You can't snivel. You can't even cry.

[Skidsteer]

Thanks. But could you change the font to a smaller one and widen the margins so when I print it out it won't be on so many pages? :D

I'll get right on that. :D

[Maryelle]

I am confused about the distinction between ALDHA and the ATC. I thought ALDHA was an organization of hikers and the ATC was the official AT organization which had the duty of co-existing with the National Park Service. The ATC sells maps with guide books, ALDHA sells a guide book and now AWOL/David Miller has a guide book. I have been trying to decide which would be best for a section hike this year and am now thoroughly confused.
Not an unusual state for me, though.

[TheChop]

I'll get right on that. :D

Friends! :banana

[kanga]

Friends! :banana
jack? is that you?

[Lugnut]

Jack doesn't stay up this late. :p

[Sly]

Have to admit that I am often offended at the blind-side, ambush tactics adopted and used by some as a corporate decision-making and implementation model.

Having said that, why not give paid-members a PIN to access the guide online? ALDHA gets well-deserved revenue, and those who are not blood-sucking leeches get their e-version. :D

Rain:sunMan

.

I suppose I could answer to a number of post but I'll pick this one.

As Companion Editor, it was actually my idea to take the Companion off line and offer for free to ALDHA members ($10) or have it available for download to non-members for $8 with the proceeds to be split by ALDHA and the ATC.

The Thru-hiker's Companion is a legal copyrighted publication owned by ALDHA and published by the ATC. It's sales directly benefit the Appalachian Trail.

I see Skidsteer has uploaded the 2010. Since I've been editor the past two years there's been literally hundreds of changes each year. If you use the 2010 edition do not be surprised if you find a number of mistakes with facts on the ground in 2011.

The 2011 Edition is available as a hard copy through the ATC Ultimate Store now and will be available online as a PDF soon.

[Sly]

The companion being available for free online is not only a great source of information for the hiking public but should be part and parcel of the organization's mission.

If you're anyway concerned with the organization's mission, you'll join ALDHA and get the Online Edition for free or buy the $8 download when it becomes available.

[Sly]

I just hope that they keep the "Updates" on, last year they had Franklin as Trail WEST, when everyone knows it's trail EAST.
As usual, I blame it all (Anything bad on or regarding the AT) on the ATC executive board.

As in the past, any corrections to the current years edition with be updated on the ATC's website...

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805509/k.6535/ThruHikers_Companion.htm

[TheChop]

If you're anyway concerned with the organization's mission, you'll join ALDHA and get the Online Edition for free or buy the $8 download when it becomes available.

This is absolutely PERFECT! Exactly what I was looking for.

[Sly]

I am confused about the distinction between ALDHA and the ATC. I thought ALDHA was an organization of hikers and the ATC was the official AT organization which had the duty of co-existing with the National Park Service. The ATC sells maps with guide books, ALDHA sells a guide book and now AWOL/David Miller has a guide book. I have been trying to decide which would be best for a section hike this year and am now thoroughly confused.
Not an unusual state for me, though.

ALDHA is an organization of hikers that owns and edits the Appalachian Trail Thru-Hiker's Companion. The ATC publishes, sells and receives the proceeds from the guide.

While David Miller currently donates his time and effort into illustrating the maps for the Companion, he also sells his own guide.

[Sly]

My view: if they show their costs vs revenue and the organization is truly in a bad financial state, I will gladly pay. If someone is just getting greedy, screw em!

Cost and revenues are available to members of ALDHA.

For a $10 annual ALDHA membership fee you get the ALDHA Companion in PDF format upon request, along with a quarterly Newsletter delivered to your home of PDF, and the members Directory. Along with attending the annual Gathering, you're encouraged to join several work trips per year, helping rebuilt trail or shelters or rehabilitating hostels in need.

www.aldha.org (http://www.aldha.org)

[Sly]

Speaking as a long time volunteer field editor I have to say this is both a surprise and disappointment.
I wonder when the Board was going to tell us?

Teej, this was a recent suggestion by me to the board to pull the online Companion and make it available free to members of ALDHA and as a paid download to non ALDHA members to benefit the ATC. It's still being discussed by the board on how to best implement it.



What ALDHA needs to do is figure out ways to improve its book to the point
where people want to go out and buy it. Competition on a free market is a
good thing; it ultimately benefits the consumer. The best way for ALDHA to
bump up sales of their annual Trail guide is to start producing a better book,
i.e. one that is better; easier on the eye; lighter; more accurate; and more
attractive to the potential buyer than their present one.



Jack, this is not about increasing sales but membership in ALDHA and better benefiting the ATC. In the past two years, not only has the book sold out, we have made several improvements in formatting, the size of the book to fit in a quart size ziplock and in the maps. When you say better and more accurate, that leaves alot to the imagination. We have 35 volunteer field editors covering the entire trail, along with many in the hiking community constantly submitting corrections and updates. While I strive to make it lighter, it dawned on me this book is an on going work of 18 years of hard work by hundreds of others before me. I don't take deleting their words concerning the history surrounding the trail lightly. As an experience hiker, you should know it's easy enough to cut the book in sections, each beginning with the data tables for that area.

If you don't like the front cover, well... I can't account for tastes...


In my sig, there is an link you can use to suggest any corrections or improvements.

[Carbo]

Sly: I think you just about covered it all. A little information can go a long way. Thanks!

[Lone Wolf]

it always boils down to the $money$

[Monkeyboy]

You can't snivel. You can't even cry.

Oh, yeah.........forgot about that.

[4eyedbuzzard]

it always boils down to the $money$
Yep. Like most things in life. I kind of doubt anybody is getting rich off ALDHA though. Like most predominantly volunteer orgs, most folks probably don't break even. Hard to blame them for trying to make money to pay the bills though. It's not like they're holding a gun to hiker's heads to buy their stuff.

[generoll]

it always boils down to the $money$

very true. money to buy a house. money to get a shuttle. money to drive an ambulance. money to buy food. money to pay property taxes on that house. in lieu of a barter system, money is the grease that makes things happen.

[Awol2003]

This may be too complicated to implement this year, but another group is deserving of the free PDF; those who buy the hardcopy. Also, is there any mechanism to prevent someone from posting the PDF so that, once again, everyone gets the PDF for free?

[10-K]

Also, is there any mechanism to prevent someone from posting the PDF so that, once again, everyone gets the PDF for free?

It cannot be done. This will be an honor system thing.

Good thing we're not nurses... :)


(that was me trying to be funny btw....)

[Lone Wolf]

they should just not offer it online at all. period. buy the book if you want the info

[10-K]

they should just not offer it online at all. period. buy the book if you want the info

+1 Problem solved.

[fehchet]

Can't beat that capitalism.

[4eyedbuzzard]

...is there any mechanism to prevent someone from posting the PDF so that, once again, everyone gets the PDF for free?
Given the nature of the internet, realistically, no. Many recording artists have abandoned the old business model because whether they or we agree with it or not, it just isn't viable anymore. Figuring out how to best profit from intellectual property / copyrighted media has been at a turning point for over a decade now. People are downloading movies before they open at the theaters, and if people with pockets that deep can't stop it, there's little hope for anyone else.

[4eyedbuzzard]

they should just not offer it online at all. period. buy the book if you want the info

Someone will get the electronic copy. It's not like publishers use movable type anymore. And on the off chance nobody does, it's likely to be scanned by someone somewhere.

[Skidsteer]

they should just not offer it online at all. period. buy the book if you want the info


+1 Problem solved.

Not really. It takes about five minutes to scan it and PDF it.


Someone will get the electronic copy. It's not like publishers use movable type anymore. And on the off chance nobody does, it's likely to be scanned by someone somewhere.

Exactly.

[10-K]

Not really. It takes about five minutes to scan it and PDF it.

That can be done with any AT guide though.

Has there been a big problem with the other 2 guides (now one I guess) being scanned and passed around?

[4eyedbuzzard]

That can be done with any AT guide though.

Has there been a big problem with the other 2 guides (now one I guess) being scanned and passed around?

People generally take the path of least resistance. If a pdf is easily available they'll grab it.. If you have to locate one, ask for it, wait, etc. etc. then it's less likely to happen.

Probably not. As noted, it's a pretty small market, and the effort required doesn't justify the time savings of just buying it for most people. But, there are folks who will do it just because the can. Especially with something that was once available for free being "taken away". I realize that it's ALDHA's prerogative to do so, but not everyone will see it that way.

[Skidsteer]

That can be done with any AT guide though.

Has there been a big problem with the other 2 guides (now one I guess) being scanned and passed around?

Hard to say. I've never seen any posted on open websites. E-mailing? Quite possibly.

[10-K]

I guess a lot depends on what the goal is.

If the pdf version is intended to be a supplement to the printed copy then I think they're on the right path.

I guess they could also use the electronic copy as a tease/advertisement for the printed copy in which case doing something like printing mileages every 5 pages or crippling it in some other way might work.

[10-K]

Could always sell the thing on itunes for iphone and ipod touch users - that would be pretty easy.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I'd add though that the future market for all the guides will grow more in the electronic mediums than hard copy versions, which will shrink. Smart phones, better coverage, cloud computing, battery technology, etc will all result in a larger demand for guides to be published electronically rather than via hard copy. Securing the distribution of published media is going to be extremely difficult.

[flemdawg1]

$8 is a fair price for an electronic copy. As a section hiker, I prefer the electronic version. I can cut and paste the info into excel for calcualting mileage between campsites and plotting elevation (roughly, not nearly as detailed as the profile from maps). I can also cut/paste the info for the parts I want and leave off extra detail I don't need and resize the print to what I want. I aslo don't need all 304 pages, nor want to get the pages trashed on the trail that I would take.

[4eyedbuzzard]

$8 is a fair price for an electronic copy.
Fair according to flemdawg1. Who knows what others, including the publisher, consider fair?

As a section hiker, I prefer the electronic version. I can cut and paste the info into excel for calcualting mileage between campsites and plotting elevation (roughly, not nearly as detailed as the profile from maps). I can also cut/paste the info for the parts I want and leave off extra detail I don't need and resize the print to what I want. I aslo don't need all 304 pages, nor want to get the pages trashed on the trail that I would take.
More reasons beside weight, culture, etc that will make e-versions the preferred method.

[10-K]

I'd add though that the future market for all the guides will grow more in the electronic mediums than hard copy versions, which will shrink. Smart phones, better coverage, cloud computing, battery technology, etc will all result in a larger demand for guides to be published electronically rather than via hard copy. Securing the distribution of published media is going to be extremely difficult.

I can see it now.. Handing out free copies of the printed version to drive sales of the electronic one...

[flemdawg1]

I suppose I could answer to a number of post but I'll pick this one.

As Companion Editor, it was actually my idea to take the Companion off line and offer for free to ALDHA members ($10) or have it available for download to non-members for $8 with the proceeds to be split by ALDHA and the ATC.

The Thru-hiker's Companion is a legal copyrighted publication owned by ALDHA and published by the ATC. It's sales directly benefit the Appalachian Trail.

I see Skidsteer has uploaded the 2010 which is fine, although since I've been editor the past two years there's been literally hundreds of changes each year. If you use the 2010 do not be surprised if you find a number of mistakes with facts on the ground in 2011.

The 2011 Edition is available as a hard copy through the ATC Ultimate Store now and will be available online as a PDF soon.


Fair according to flemdawg1. Who knows what others, including the publisher, consider fair?

More reasons beside weight, culture, etc that will make e-versions the preferred method.

I was just giving Sly feedback on his proposed price point. But yeah I guess it would be up to ATC on what to charge, since they are the publisher. I also wouldn't pay that every year, but every 3-4 year maybe. Relying in between on the ATC updates page.

[TheChop]

Agreed with the posts above that say things are going electronically. If you don't believe me get a Kindle. If you don't believe me then think back on the devices we had in its place ten years ago. Now think ahead ten years to the devices we'll have then.

They'll be an iPad like device you can hit with a sledgehammer, switch from back lit screen to perfectly contrasted e-ink, one charge will last three weeks and the damn thing will weigh 4 ounces and the only that much is so it won't blow away in the wind. Anyone carrying a paper book on the trail will be looked upon like an external frame user today. :)

8 bucks is fair. Including electronic with membership is even better as it encourages participation in the ALDHA and brings in revenue. Anyone going out and mass distributing it in light of those two options are jerkfaces of the highest order.

[Sly]

Also, is there any mechanism to prevent someone from posting the PDF so that, once again, everyone gets the PDF for free?

No more than someone scanning your book and posting it online. What steps could you take to prevent it?

[Sly]

8 bucks is fair. Including electronic with membership is even better as it encourages participation in the ALDHA and brings in revenue. Anyone going out and mass distributing it in light of those two options are jerkfaces of the highest order.

Thank you The Chop, it's the essence of my original suggestion to the ALDHA board, although in my capacity of Editor I'm not sure I'd use the term jerkfaces, regardless of my desires.

[Sly]

This may be too complicated to implement this year, but another group is deserving of the free PDF; those who buy the hardcopy.

Ummm why's that? If you buy a cup of coffee they don't give you a donut. IMO, no one is deserving of a free copy except for the volunteer field editors. Buyers of the hard copy can scan what they need.

[Awol2003]

No more than someone scanning your book and posting it online. What steps could you take to prevent it?

I asked 'cause I don't know a good answer. The fact that it is illegal is the only deterrent. The PDF that you provide could have a "digital signature" so that you would know the source of the copy.

[Lone Wolf]

sounds like ALDHA needs to just get out of the guidebook business

[Sly]

Fair according to flemdawg1. Who knows what others, including the publisher, consider fair?

More reasons beside weight, culture, etc that will make e-versions the preferred method.

In this case ALDHA is the publisher of the electronic version, the ATC is the publisher of the hard copy.

It's a product of ALDHA and been available for free for years. IMO, JoeHiker from Whiteblaze, unless they're a member of ALDHA, doesn't deserve a copy as it's now regarded as a benefit of membership of ALDHA which only cost $10.

If you're not a member of ALDHA and don't think $8 is a fair price for the electronic version you can buy a hard copy from the ATC.

[flemdawg1]

This may be too complicated to implement this year, but another group is deserving of the free PDF; those who buy the hardcopy. Also, is there any mechanism to prevent someone from posting the PDF so that, once again, everyone gets the PDF for free?

As someone who works with scanned pdfs, alot I can tell you that there is a major difference in pdfs from scanning and pdfs from source files (and even source files are imperfect copies as the OCR messes alot up.) Also Acrobat Pro isn't cheap.

[Smile]

I can't believe there's this much discussion over paying a meager $10 for such a crucial part of many hikers gear. Why not join and get the goodies? :)

[Sly]

sounds like ALDHA needs to just get out of the guidebook business

Why's that L Wolf?

It's hard copy sales directly benefit the trail that this website and members are devoted to. It's sold out 3 of the last four years, and it appears everyone is hollering to get the online version.

[TheChop]

Ummm why's that? If you buy a cup of coffee they don't give you a donut. IMO, no one is deserving of a free copy except for the volunteer field editors. Buyers of the hard copy can scan what they need.

There's some logic to this viewpoint. The idea is you're paying for the information and not the delivery mechanism. Considering electronic delivery is nearly free throwing that in with the physical book isn't a big deal. This is done with DVDs quite a bit where an electronic download is available for the movie so you may put it on your iPod or media center. People wouldn't be getting a free copy with the book just like they wouldn't be getting a free table of content with the book. It would just be an additional feature of buying the book.

But I understand the complications involved here since the ATC sells the hardcopy and the ALDHA is responsible for the electronic version. It also explains the decision to stop putting it out there for free online. It wasn't so much the ATC that was losing money with the free online version as it was the ALDHA was losing money by giving away their version. A free online version could be a viable loss leader/advertisement but not if one party is doing the loss leading and the other is doing the selling. Either way the trail gets the money so it's not a big deal but from someone that doesn't see the distinction it does seem odd that a digital version isn't able to be included with the physical copy.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

Ummm why's that? If you buy a cup of coffee they don't give you a donut. IMO, no one is deserving of a free copy except for the volunteer field editors. Buyers of the hard copy can scan what they need.

Not to be rude, but it seems other people who 'deserved' to get a free copy were all the people who obtained the previous years for free online, and those who downloaded this years edition for free before it was taken offline. :sun

I do understand your position and it is the correct one. Like I said in my OP, I own the paper 2011 version already and I was just slightly annoyed that the virtual version was taken offline, because in essence now I have to pay for the same material twice.

It is all for a good cause though, and I understand. I think people are upset about how the removal of the free online version was handled.

[Sly]

With all due respect, I don't believe it was written that by buying a hard copy you'd also receive a free PDF version. Just because people got used to downloading for free in previous years doesn't mean they'd get one for life, that's preposterous.

Since the ALDHA board, and I, live all over the country and communicate through an email list, communication isn't instant. Most people have jobs and are sometimes late in getting the message, in this case the webmaster. That you were one or two of lucky few that saw the 2011 version online, does complicate matters. Since you know the wishes of ALDHA, it's up to you whether to join ALDHA or contribute to the ATC. Otherwise, you have a hard copy, use it like most have for the last 18 years.



Not to be rude, but it seems other people who 'deserved' to get a free copy were all the people who obtained the previous years for free online, and those who downloaded this years edition for free before it was taken offline. :sun

I do understand your position and it is the correct one. Like I said in my OP, I own the paper 2011 version already and I was just slightly annoyed that the virtual version was taken offline, because in essence now I have to pay for the same material twice.

It is all for a good cause though, and I understand. I think people are upset about how the removal of the free online version was handled.

[max patch]

If you buy a cup of coffee they don't give you a donut.

Actually, all last week at QuikTrip they did. :)

Seriously, FWIW I agree with your decision to remove free access to the information.

[ShoelessWanderer]

they finally figured out they were losing money. why buy a book if you can get the info for free?

Exactly! That's why I, personally, haven't bought it the last few years. I'm not thru hiking so I just print the few pages I need at the time I need them. Although I do love having the access to it online, so I'd probably be willing to pay a little for the download.

[TheChop]

One last question while we have your attention Sly. When will the Companion be available to be bought online?

[Sly]

One last question while we have your attention Sly. When will the Companion be available to be bought online?

Right now the webmaster is rehabbing the website, adding a store and adding Paypal integration. Many of the principals are attending the Pa Ruck and since most of us are hikers, and not all that technically inclined, with no budget to hire professionals, hopefully it should be available next week.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I can't believe there's this much discussion over paying a meager $10 for such a crucial part of many hikers gear. Why not join and get the goodies? :)
It's a new topic for discussion, that's all. More interesting than dragging up a zombie thread and beating on "how much; how light; shelters; dogs; guns . . ."

[Sly]

It's a new topic for discussion, that's all. More interesting than dragging up a zombie thread and beating on "how much; how light; shelters; dogs; guns . . ."

That's true, and since it was my idea and most comments have been respectful, I don't mind explaining or answering any questions.

Since I've become more active in ALDHA, I've been thinking of ways to increase and retain membership. Hopefully, since we own it, making the online Companion as part of the membership and incorporating Paypal, we will.

Next, as part of giving back to the trail, will be beefing up the work crew, and offering several opportunities per year. I want to call the ALDHA trail crew "True Grit" What do you think? Any other suggestions?

[TheChop]

Next, as part of giving back to the trail, will be beefing up the work crew, and offering several opportunities per year. I want to call the ALDHA trail crew "True Grit" What do you think? Any other suggestions?

You can only do this if everywhere wears an eye patch. For obvious copyright reasons.

[SGT Rock]

Could always sell the thing on itunes for iphone and ipod touch users - that would be pretty easy.

That is an excellent idea. I may look to that route for providing the BMT guide on iPhone and Android.

[4eyedbuzzard]

You can only do this if everywhere wears an eye patch. For obvious copyright reasons.
You better believe it, mister, or you're dead where you stand.

[Skidsteer]

Could always sell the thing on itunes for iphone and ipod touch users - that would be pretty easy.


That is an excellent idea. I may look to that route for providing the BMT guide on iPhone and Android.

Seems like that would be the most reliable way to keep it from being casually pirated.

[Skidsteer]

.......................................

[SGT Rock]

I'm looking into the Android option now since I have one and can beta test it on my system. Once I figure that one out I'll look at iPhone.

[The Weasel]

I'm looking into the Android option now since I have one and can beta test it on my system. Once I figure that one out I'll look at iPhone.

Do one for Windows Phone too.

TW

[SGT Rock]

OK I will Weasel. I want to hit as many platforms as possible. I think there is a new Crackberry out that can do this sort of thing as well.

[Sly]

Anyone else that wants the 2010 Companion download (https://www.atctrailstore.org/catalog/iteminfo.cfm?itemid=678&compid=1) has until late tonight to get it.

Fair warning.

While you're at it why not post Sgt Rock's BMT guide. I'm sure he wouldn't mind. :rolleyes:

[SGT Rock]

And I haven't said hi in a while Weasel. I hope you and your family are doing well.

[Sly]

You can only do this if everywhere wears an eye patch. For obvious copyright reasons.

John Wayne was a trail worker?

[Skidsteer]

While you're at it why not post Sgt Rock's BMT guide. I'm sure he wouldn't mind. :rolleyes:

I couldn't if I wanted to. The 2010 BMT guide in an electronic version wasn't available for free for the past 12 months and then discontinued without notice.

Hey I'm on your side, Sly. People should pay for 2011 just as I will.

[Sly]

I couldn't if I wanted to. The 2010 BMT guide in an electronic version wasn't available for free for the past 12 months.

The only reason it's free now is that your reposting it. It's still copyrighted and not to be freely distributed except by ALDHA or with their permission.

[Skidsteer]

The only reason it's free now is that your reposting it. It's still copyrighted and not to be freely distributed except by ALDHA or with their permission.

Okay, I'll remove it.

[Sly]

Okay, I'll remove it.

Thank you. There were literally hundreds of changes which wouldn't properly serve either the hiker or the trail providers.

[Rain Man]

Ummm why's that? If you buy a cup of coffee they don't give you a donut.

Not to pick on you, Sly, but that's a faulty analogy. A better one might be "if you buy a cup of coffee, they also give you a cup to drink it from." But that analogy would totally contradict your argument.

In which case, you might use this one, "if you buy a sleeping bag, they don't give you a backpack to carry it in." But that one also is faulty, as they are distinct goods, not two versions of the same good.

Off hand I can't think of a good analogy to support your argument, BUT that doesn't mean the argument is faulty. I'd be fine with paying for either/or/both versions of the guide, just as one has to pay Amazon for a hard copy and a Kindle copy of a book (or at least I think think that's true).

The fact of the matter is that I didn't know I was entitled to a pdf version as a member of ALDHA (I think my ALDHA membership is till current, but am not sure). I'll just make sure to download the pdf version when it's available.

ALDHA has always been an enigma to me. I mostly read about (or remember reading about) the politics, bitter feelings expressed about this or that member, and how much drinking goes on at gatherings. NONE of which is my cup of tea, so I mostly just don't bother trying to figure it out. The confusion over the Guide (edit v. publish) doesn't help at all. But no biggie.

Best to you in this muddle.

Rain:sunMan

.

[Sly]

Not to pick on you, Sly, but that's a faulty analogy. A better one might be "if you buy a cup of coffee, they also give you a cup to drink it from." But that analogy would totally contradict your argument.

In which case, you might use this one, "if you buy a sleeping bag, they don't give you a backpack to carry it in." But that one also is faulty, as they are distinct goods, not two versions of the same good.

Off hand I can't think of a good analogy to support your argument, BUT that doesn't mean the argument is faulty. I'd be fine with paying for either/or/both versions of the guide, just as one has to pay Amazon for a hard copy and a Kindle copy of a book (or at least I think think that's true).



Semantics, as you noted in your last sentence. You pay for one steak, you don't get to eat another for free. How many movies have you gone to where they give you the DVD?




The fact of the matter is that I didn't know I was entitled to a pdf version as a member of ALDHA (I think my ALDHA membership is till current, but am not sure). I'll just make sure to download the pdf version when it's available.



It's a new policy we're trying to implement that only members get the PDF for free. It will be available soon and I'll make an announcement.




ALDHA has always been an enigma to me. I mostly read about (or remember reading about) the politics, bitter feelings expressed about this or that member, and how much drinking goes on at gatherings. NONE of which is my cup of tea, so I mostly just don't bother trying to figure it out. The confusion over the Guide (edit v. publish) doesn't help at all. But no biggie.

Best to you in this muddle.

Rain:sunMan

.

For the most part there's responsible drinking at the Gathering, which nowhere resembles Trail Days. I've never personally seen any type of incident. Of course there's politics, it's a 700 member group with a board, old timers and new. Bitterness is among relatively few, which has been seen here in the past. If you're interested in hiking a variety of trails, many are presented at the Gathering, where long distance hiking experience is boundless.

I'll make the ALDHA/ATC relationship as simple as possible. ALDHA owns and edits the book. For a small stipend, the ATC publishes the hard copy and derives the profits. ALDHA is also an unofficial hiker liaison of sorts to the ATC

[TheChop]

How many movies have you gone to where they give you the DVD?



The better question and the true analogy with this is how many movies do you buy on DVD where you get a digital copy?

The answer is a lot (http://www.apple.com/itunes/digital-copy/).

I could scan the Companion and put it on my Kindle and not infringe on copyright as it would fall under fair use.

[The Weasel]

And I haven't said hi in a while Weasel. I hope you and your family are doing well.

Doing well, trying to do good.

TW

[Mountain Maiden]

Cost and revenues are available to members of ALDHA.

For a $10 annual ALDHA membership fee you get the ALDHA Companion in PDF format upon request, along with a quarterly Newsletter delivered to your home of PDF, and the members Directory. Along with attending the annual Gathering, you're encouraged to join several work trips per year, helping rebuilt trail or shelters or rehabilitating hostels in need.

www.aldha.org (http://www.aldha.org)

Sly, maybe one thing the PA Ruckers or the next ALDHA meeting could address would be to make it possible to pay membership dues ONLINE. In this day and age, it seems as though it would help membership numbers.

On my thru-hike, many people provided rides or other hiker helps but wouldn't accept any money, even for gas. So, I printed out several membership forms and sent in the membership dues in their names (it was just $7 in '02) Without exception, those people said it was the best returned favor. They often followed us up the Trail via the guide, got more involved in the AT community or one guy even got into trail maintenance in his area--- even tho' he'd never been on the AT before!

I think ALDHA still provides many valuable services to the AT community and $10 is a small amount to contribute to the effort.

If I could pay my dues online-- I would do it NOW... but it will have to wait til tomorrow so I can print it out, get it in an envelope and mail it-- oh yeah--can't do that til Monday-- gotta buy stamps. Just sayin'...

Thanks to you Sly and all the other board members that labor for the cause!

S:sun

[rickb]

On my thru-hike, many people provided rides or other hiker helps but wouldn't accept any money, even for gas. So, I printed out several membership forms and sent in the membership dues in their names (it was just $7 in '02) Without exception, those people said it was the best returned favor. They often followed us up the Trail via the guide, got more involved in the AT community or one guy even got into trail maintenance in his area--- even tho' he'd never been on the AT before!

What a remarkably cool thing to do.

[jabowman7]

Man, glad I downloaded all of them a few weeks ago. Even though it's technically outdated, it'll be nice to have on a Kindle or smartphone whenever I daydream about the trail...

[Sly]

Hi Sunny-

Paypal integration is on the way and should be in place within a week or two. IMO, it's about 5 years late but late is netter than never. I'm like you and seldom write checks and use the mail any more to pay bills and do almost all of my bill paying exclusively online. We're also going to have a small store with selected items that Pilgrim promises to be of high quality at a fair price.

Your gift idea of membership for trail angels was awesome. One of the reasons I made the proposal to have the online Companion for members only (and Paypal years ago) was to enlist new and retain old members at $10 rather than raises dues.

Thanks for the positive message. :sun



Sly, maybe one thing the PA Ruckers or the next ALDHA meeting could address would be to make it possible to pay membership dues ONLINE. In this day and age, it seems as though it would help membership numbers.

On my thru-hike, many people provided rides or other hiker helps but wouldn't accept any money, even for gas. So, I printed out several membership forms and sent in the membership dues in their names (it was just $7 in '02) Without exception, those people said it was the best returned favor. They often followed us up the Trail via the guide, got more involved in the AT community or one guy even got into trail maintenance in his area--- even tho' he'd never been on the AT before!

I think ALDHA still provides many valuable services to the AT community and $10 is a small amount to contribute to the effort.

If I could pay my dues online-- I would do it NOW... but it will have to wait til tomorrow so I can print it out, get it in an envelope and mail it-- oh yeah--can't do that til Monday-- gotta buy stamps. Just sayin'...

Thanks to you Sly and all the other board members that labor for the cause!

S:sun

[Sly]

The better question and the true analogy with this is how many movies do you buy on DVD where you get a digital copy?

The answer is a lot (http://www.apple.com/itunes/digital-copy/).

I could scan the Companion and put it on my Kindle and not infringe on copyright as it would fall under fair use.

How recent is that? And digital movies aren't the same as printed books.

Find it for me on Amazon for hard copy books and PDF.

Two questions, are you a member of ALDHA and do you own a copy of the 2011 Companion?

[Lone Wolf]

this thread continues because...?

[TheChop]

How recent is that? And digital movies aren't the same as printed books.

Find it for me on Amazon for hard copy books and PDF.

Two questions, are you a member of ALDHA and do you own a copy of the 2011 Companion?

Disney as well. (http://disney.go.com/disneyvideos/disneyfile/textonly.html)

It is extremely recent. The only reason that it's not offered through places like Amazon with the Kindle is the same reason it wasn't offered back when iTunes first started putting movies online. It's a negotiation with the publishers that must be done. The entertainment world is undergoing a revolution where digital distribution has to be ironed out in terms of who gets paid what and who is going to do the distributing. Let Borders fall. Let two more versions of their Kindle come out and they'll have the clout to start negotiating with publishers like Apple does with music. This is probably the single biggest feature Kindle owners ask for. This is the way both industries are going.

And no I am not a member of ALDHA and have not bought the Companion. I am a member of ATC and bought the map special back in December. I didn't even realize the relationship between ALDHA and the ATC before this thread. I was planning on buying it and leaving it at my support person's house while I took the PDF version along in my Kindle.

[Marta]

Moderator's note: All posts containing links to online versions of The Companion will be deleted. Because the owners of the copyright have changed their distribution policy for the book, violating those policies is piracy. WB terms of service do not permit the encouragement of of illegal activities in WB posts.

You can complain, question, discuss, and argue about this policy change. You cannot post links to The Companion Online to enable people to pirate The Companion.

[Sly]

Of course you do realize you're comparing the billion dollar movie industry where the profit is often made before the DVD comes to sale to two non-profits where volunteerism is the key?

Regardless, we're only just approaching this. Hopefully, a Kindle version will be available for those that bought the hard copy by next year.




Disney as well. (http://disney.go.com/disneyvideos/disneyfile/textonly.html)

It is extremely recent. The only reason that it's not offered through places like Amazon with the Kindle is the same reason it wasn't offered back when iTunes first started putting movies online. It's a negotiation with the publishers that must be done. The entertainment world is undergoing a revolution where digital distribution has to be ironed out in terms of who gets paid what and who is going to do the distributing. Let Borders fall. Let two more versions of their Kindle come out and they'll have the clout to start negotiating with publishers like Apple does with music. This is probably the single biggest feature Kindle owners ask for. This is the way both industries are going.

[Smile]

How about supporting the organization, spend the ten bucks and feel good about giving back. They put out a nice book, and you can fall asleep with it in your lap during the winter months dreaming of spring and your next hike :)
(Plus, nothing can replace the sound and feel of a page turning in your hand)

PS - PayPal is a great idea

[ARambler]

I stumbled on this similar example. The Good Beer Guide lists the best pubs in Great Britten that serve "Real Ale" (cask beer). This Camra guide was responsible for reviving traditional British beer, and lead to the start of the USA microbrew revolution a quarter century ago.
Prices:
Members: $ 16 +P&H
NonMembers: $ 21 +P&H
iPhone App: $8
Obviously, there are more production costs for their iPhone app than just a pdf file. Camra has more volunteers and much more content in their guide. They also have more institutional and marketing expenses that need to be supported from sales of this guide. They also have much higher sale to bring down the printing costs.
Rambler

[TheChop]

(Plus, nothing can replace the sound and feel of a page turning in your hand)


You know you say this and I thought this until I got this Kindle thing. Sitting down with a good book and comfortably reading is nice. Being able to lay in bed, not have to worry about bending pages, keeping the book open, etc. is very nice as well.

In regards to Sly. This is just the way publishing is headed. In one way I can see the Companion not being the trail blazer. :rimshot: But in another way independent authors and publishers will be the vanguards in this as they are more nimble and can more easily respond to consumer demand. I'm pointing this out not so much to say the Companion should go to this model but more to say someone thinking they should get the digital copy as well as the physical copy is not exactly asking for two steaks at a restaurant or asking for something unreasonable and crazy. One of the reasons this model hasn't taken off is due to deciding how you divide the proceeds if you've got a physical distributor and a digital distributor which is exactly the situation the Companion is in.

And thanks for all the work on the book btw. One of the reasons I'm going Kindle only is so I can take both the Companion and the AT Guide... and Dune and Harry Potter and East of Eden and...

[Jeff]

ALDHA is a great organization and The Gathering is a "must" for anyone interested in reconnecting with old hiker friends. I support any Companion change of policy that would encourage folks to join ALDHA.

The annual ALDHA hiker directory has allowed me to stay in touch with hikers who had disappeared from my radar screen !!!

[WisconsinHiker2011]

I own the 2011 guide and it is awesome. I strongly suggest all purchase it.

[LovelyDay]

I am an ATC member; if I were to purchase the 2011 paperback edition would I get a complimentary .pdf to go with it? The online version of the Companion comes in handily as I have three paperback editions at home with missing pages that were ripped out and taken with me along the trail. Don't ask me why I am still saving them and the Data Books. Last year I was able to print out only those pages that I needed to complete my section (300-miles). Many have overlooked the fact that the electronic version only takes seconds to search for references that would otherwise take much longer if manually thumbing through approx 255 printed pages.
This poll sounds like a done deal ~ pay the $$$ and get your download. If so, please provide a means other than electronic to submit payment. I DO NOT use my credit card online for anything!

[Graywolf]

I suspect this has nothing to do with a "non-profit trying to go profit".

ALDHA's never been about money or making money.

I suspect it's merely a case of an organization being taken advantage of for years and people using their work/services for free, and they're tired of it.

Funny thing. Where I live, everyone talks about how willing they are to support local stores; bookshops; independent outfitters; etc. They're all willing, so they say, to pay more in order to support these places and keep them going.

Funny thing is that reality interfered and many of these places in my community are gone, precisely because local people would NOT support them, or would rather save a few bucks getting something for cheap on line.....or in cases like the Companion, would rather get something for free on-line.

This isn't about a non-profit turning money-grubby after decades of giving stuff away for free. All they're saying is hey.....if you like this and think it's worth something, pay for it. If you don't, well buy something else. But the fact that ALDHA has given it's information and knowledge away for free for years does not mean that it's obligated to do this forever.

Thats the reason I said to make the previous guides PDF and the current you have to buy. My understanding is the previous years, the guides are not for sale anyway, so why charge for something that isnt there?

Make the previous guide on PDF format, OR even the year before that. Charge for the current years guides.

Graywolf

[Roland]

Thats the reason I said to make the previous guides PDF and the current you have to buy. My understanding is the previous years, the guides are not for sale anyway, so why charge for something that isnt there?

Make the previous guide on PDF format, OR even the year before that. Charge for the current years guides.

Graywolf

ALDHA volunteers produce the Companion each year, so that ATC can publish and sell it. It's one way ALDHA supports the ATC.

So how would giving away an electronic version of the Companion benefit the ATC?

Sly has stated that the ALDHA board is considering using the online Companion as an incentive to boost membership. Join ALDHA and get the online Companion free of charge. And since ALDHA supports ATC, boosting ALDHA membership indirectly increases support for ATC.

Seems to make sense to me.

[Frosty]

Damn. I use that for all of my section hikes. Time to buy an old guide used to ensure they get no profit from me.I don't understand the outrage. For years they provided a free product for people to use, expecting consumers to buy the hard copy and use the online version for convenience. When consumers leeched off them and sales went down, they pulled the plug and now you have to buy it same as any other guide. What other guide is free and why would you expect it for nothing anyway?

ALDHA is a non-profit organization, so they get no profit no matter what you do. Your money doesn't go into someone's pockets as with other guides (not that anyone ever got rich publishing an AT guide where breaking even is probably the goal in this labor of love), it goes right back to the trail.

Do the right thing. Send them the money for an hard copy guide. It isn't like it is a huge expense. How much do you spend a year on hiking, including gear, gas, food and lodging? $12 a year is nothing compared to the total. It is probably the cheapest expense item of the year. Get the latest information. Help the trail. Buy a new Companion every year.

[4eyedbuzzard]

:-? Conclusion: Lots / many / some hikers will yogi anything and everything they can.

[Sly]

This poll sounds like a done deal ~ pay the $$$ and get your download. If so, please provide a means other than electronic to submit payment. I DO NOT use my credit card online for anything!

It's not poll but if you'd like to join ALDHA (only $10 per year), where the PDF Companion will be freely available, along with a quarterly Newsletter and a member Directory, I'll attach a brochure, and you can mail in a check. Once the ALDHA Companion page is updated (hopefully this week) it will have instructions on how to get the PDF

[Hikes in Rain]

Hmm...hard copy: $12
Join ALDHA, receive PDF version and other benefits: $10

Sounds like a deal to me!

[Sickmont]

Hmm...hard copy: $12
Join ALDHA, receive PDF version and other benefits: $10

Sounds like a deal to me!

Indeed. I concur.

[ARambler]

Hmm...hard copy: $12
Join ALDHA, receive PDF version and other benefits: $10

Sounds like a deal to me!

This assumes you are an ATC member and somehow get the shipping for free, and are not an ALDHA member.

I calculate:
Hard copy: $17.45 shipped.
pdf: drop $35 ATC membership and pay ALDHA membership and pocket $25.

If the money is more important the supporting trail organizations it is a real no-brainer.

Putting an old version on line is real mean thinking. Given that nobody prefers the old version, you are punishing everyone that wants the pdf for 1) its open binding, 2) ability to change the output size, 3) stay green and only print out this years section, 4) last minute availability, 5) ability to carry electronically, 6) lower cost, 7) leave a copy at home for support personnel and back-up and post hike reference, 8) maybe other reasons, 9) maybe all these reasons. We need more people who would like to support hikers and less people who want to be lawyers.

Yes ALDHA is sacrificing some of their values of being the greatest service to the hiking community. However, ALDHA needs new members and the proposal is not much of a burden to the hikers.
Rambler

[mikec]

Yes, they probably should charge for it online as well as in book form as the Companion is a valuable resource. Maybe it's just me but does anyone notice that the trail updates as well as updates to the Companion have not been updated in awhile on the ATC site? I know that the AT is constantly changing. I have even reported things like hotels closing near the trail in the past but they don't get included in the updates. This area is a great service to hikers. Especially section hikers.

[Sly]

We constantly update the Companion through the ATC website. Here are the updates that took place during calendar year for the 2010 Companion

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805509/k.6535/ThruHikers_Companion.htm

This morning I emailed Matt to archive 2010 (which will be found on the bottom of the page) and add two updates for the 2011 book. If you have any updates contact me through the link in my sig or contact the ATC through the update page. We both readily share info.



Yes, they probably should charge for it online as well as in book form as the Companion is a valuable resource. Maybe it's just me but does anyone notice that the trail updates as well as updates to the Companion have not been updated in awhile on the ATC site? I know that the AT is constantly changing. I have even reported things like hotels closing near the trail in the past but they don't get included in the updates. This area is a great service to hikers. Especially section hikers.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

I am guessing the 2011 version will get updates as well?

I am going to become a member if it gets updates!

[Sly]

I am guessing the 2011 version will get updates as well?

I am going to become a member if it gets updates!

Yes, 2011 and beyond will have updates throughout the year. Although they haven't been posted to the ATC Companion Updates page as of yet, (rumor has it they're launching a new website) here are two....


Hot Springs

ArtiSun Gallery and Marketplace— (828) 662-3573 Owned and operated by former thru-hiker Sunny aka Sunrise ’02. Just over the railroad tracks, only 10 feet from AT! Open 7 days during hiker season. Serving organic, fair trade coffee and espresso, fine wine and home baked goods. Free Wi-Fi. Will hold UPS and Fed-ex drop boxes (sorry, no USPS) delivered to 16 S Andrews St, Hot Springs, NC 28743

Franklin, NC


7th Annual Hiker Fool Bash- April 1-2. Sponsored by Ron Haven & the Sapphire Inn (828) 524-4406 <www.thesapphireinn.com (http://www.thesapphireinn.com/)> Music, entertainment, fun & food. Camping for hikers.
761 E.Main Street Franklin, NC 28734

[TJ aka Teej]

It's not poll

Just wondering, Sly - have you and the board decided to ahead and ignore the will of the ALDHA membership that voted this down several times? You want to encourage people to join an organization where their vote is asked for - and ignored?

Why not wait, put your case to the membership again, and try to win the vote?

[Sly]

Teej, what was voted down once in 2003 was to take the online companion off line and sell it outright.

It's now 2011 and many are using Kindle's and smartphones capable of using the PDF.

As Companion Editor, what I proposed to the board, in order to increase and maintain membership, was to make it free to the members of ALDHA and sell it at a reasonable price to non-members.

I made the proposal, as far as I know the proposal was made into a motion, which will probably be seconded and voted on in the next few days.

The reason I decided not to wait until the Spring meeting or the Gathering is it would take another year to implement, if not longer. The guide is ready now and will be back online soon, one way or another.

Teej, I have to ask, are you a current ALDHA member?



Just wondering, Sly - have you and the board decided to ahead and ignore the will of the ALDHA membership that voted this down several times? You want to encourage people to join an organization where their vote is asked for - and ignored?

Why not wait, put your case to the membership again, and try to win the vote?

[TJ aka Teej]

Teej, what was voted down once in 2003 was to take the online companion off line and sell it outright.
Jim Owen (who has been to more Gathers than you or I) told you it's been voted on several times. 2003 was the only Google citation a search returned.

Teej, I have to ask, are you a current ALDHA member?
I'm getting newletters, so probably - I have to ask, Why? Were you going to scold me if I needed to renew? I certainly was a member when I joined the majority and voted No at two Hanovers and a Gettysburg on the motion to take down the free-view version.

I'm not really sure you want to be advocating disenfranchising the membership because the people they've voted into office think the membership is too dumb to have their votes taken seriously.
And I mean that in the nicest way.

[Sly]

All the motions are on the ALDHA website. The one in 2003 is the only one I saw concerning the Companion.

Here it is...


2003
Motion: That Companion would be available to be downloaded for a fee with previous years can be downloaded for no fee.
Failed

Do you not see the difference?

Again, there's a vast difference in what was proposed in 2003 and what's being proposed now.

I asked if you were a current member because, if you're not, your voice isn't as strong as it could be. No scolding or lectures to re-join but, Newsletters or not, I didn't see your name in the 2010 Directory.



Jim Owen (who has been to more Gathers than you or I) told you it's been voted on several times. 2003 was the only Google citation a search returned.

I'm getting newletters, so probably - I have to ask, Why? Were you going to scold me if I needed to renew? I certainly was a member when I joined the majority and voted No at two Hanovers and a Gettysburg on the motion to take down the free-view version.

I'm not really sure you want to be advocating disenfranchising the membership because the people they've voted into office think the membership is too dumb to have their votes taken seriously.
And I mean that in the nicest way.

[Sly]

Jim Owen (who has been to more Gathers than you or I) told you it's been voted on several times. 2003 was the only Google citation a search returned.
.

Jim Owen also told me the free online Companion increases sales of the hard copy without any citation regarding that particular book whatsoever.

If it were up to me, as Companion Editor, this would be a done deal.

Not everything goes in front of the general membership. You can't wait a year every time something comes up with a club ALDHA's size. The ALDHA board is crossing it's T's and dotting the I's in order to make sure this is being done above board and according to the rules. Regardless of the outcome we're going to have to accept the outcome or bring it to the board again at a later date.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

Just wondering, Sly - have you and the board decided to ahead and ignore the will of the ALDHA membership that voted this down several times? You want to encourage people to join an organization where their vote is asked for - and ignored?

Why not wait, put your case to the membership again, and try to win the vote?

So you are saying the members were ignored and one person just decided to make policy on this?

[Tuckahoe]

if the ALDHA is like most any other club, then the reality is that there are officers elected and tasked with the day to day running of the organization. That is their job.

[Sly]

So you are saying the members were ignored and one person just decided to make policy on this?


if the ALDHA is like most any other club, then the reality is that there are officers elected and tasked with the day to day running of the organization. That is their job.

That's correct, ALDHA has a board that is elected to by a majority to run "day to day" operations on their behalf. The general membership only meets once a year at the annual Gathering. There's also the Spring meeting which is open to members but not nearly as many show up, perhaps 2 dozen.

[TJ aka Teej]

I asked if you were a current member because, if you're not, your voice isn't as strong as it could be.

All these years as an ALDHA member and volunteer field editor makes my voice on this as strong as it needs to be. Perhaps a wee bit stronger on this issue than others. I was contributing long before you became editor, and will continue long after you're gone.
Thanks for pointing out I might be $10 behind, I wasn't aware you were membership secretary too. Congrats!

[TJ aka Teej]

So you are saying the members were ignored and one person just decided to make policy on this?

Yup, that's correct.

[TJ aka Teej]

if the ALDHA is like most any other club, then the reality is that there are officers elected and tasked with the day to day running of the organization. That is their job.
Yes, but acting in a manner contrary to the wishes of the membership isn't their "job." The no-charge version is a longstanding feature of what makes us unique. To arbitrarily decide to reverse direction, with no understanding of the history of the issue at all, seems disrespectful at best.

[Sly]

Yes, but acting in a manner contrary to the wishes of the membership isn't their "job." The no-charge version is a longstanding feature of what makes us unique. To arbitrarily decide to reverse direction, with no understanding of the history of the issue at all, seems disrespectful at best.

Teej, if the motion passes, it will continue to be no charge to ALDHA members. It's not the same motion that was brought up 8 years ago. It's not reversing direction, but refining it. I've heard from more than a few that don't like the policy, that think it's a good idea, long over due. In this day and age of shrinking membership, Kindle's and smartphones it's hardly an arbitrary decision.

[max patch]

In this day and age of shrinking membership,

ALDHA does not appear to be meeting the needs of its members. What is the disconnect?

[Lemni Skate]

Making something like this unavailable or hard to get will CAUSE it to be bootlegged. Whatever they do with this guide they need to make it available online quick, because as soon as it's bootlegged it's out there forever.

I don't know how much money entertainment people have cost themselves by not realizing this.

[Sly]

ALDHA does not appear to be meeting the needs of its members. What is the disconnect?

For reasons of his own, Jester asked me to post this reply. I'll follow it up, if I see necessary...


It's presumptuous to link decline in membership to an assumption that ALDHA is not "meeting the needs of its members." In fact, part of the decline in membership is a direct result of meeting one of the needs of some of the members -- the members who didn't want ALDHA to recruit new people, and actively and vocally fought against it. This was their attitude because some members viewed ALDHA as their own small club, and they didn't want people they didn't know (and who might not agree with them), to be a part of it.


The number of members has been in decline in the past few years, for a number of reasons. While a bad economy doesn't seem like it would affect a $10 membership, it does affect the number of people who attend Gatherings, from whence comes the majority of our memberships. Our system of joining the rest of the year has been cumbersome and antiquated for years. And because many ALDHA members took a short-sighted view of wanting new members, numbers are also declining due to the average age of the members. In other words, they're dying. Or at the very least not actively hiking or taking part in the hiking community.


As noted, numbers have been in decline for the past few years. The Board, as currently constituted, was elected in October. Membership numbers are of concern to Board, as is the need to get more current with today's more connected hikers. Many current year hikers have never even seen a paper check; our previous way of joining when not at a Gathering has become so inconvenient as to be useless. Likewise, an online version of the Companion that was previously handy when needing to print out a single page but cost prohibitive to print out entirely has become a free substitute for the entire Companion if a hiker has a smart phone or e-reader. Which potentially hurts the sales of every guide book, not just the Companion.


Not having the PDF version available for ALDHA members has never been a part of the discussion; it is, after all, a product created by ALDHA volunteers. The Board is currently discussing (but has not voted on) what, if any, access will be made available to non-members. Regardless of what anyone chooses to believe, the last time online access was brought to a vote before the membership was 2003. I have attended that and every subsequent Sunday meeting. And the vote that was taken in 2003 revolved around taking the online version down and making it available to no one, which is not what we're discussing.


Those who attended the last Sunday meeting will note that the current Board is doing exactly what it told the membership it wanted to do -- bring ALDHA into the current century and focus on ways to improve our membership numbers; what we are discussing vis a vis the online version can be directly connected to both. So we're not ignoring the will of the membership. We were elected to make these kinds of decisions.

[takethisbread]

maybe its been mentioned but when i buy a vinyl album it comes with a digital download code. Couldnt the companion do the same?

in some fashion it could work

[Sly]

Making something like this unavailable or hard to get will CAUSE it to be bootlegged. Whatever they do with this guide they need to make it available online quick, because as soon as it's bootlegged it's out there forever.

I don't know how much money entertainment people have cost themselves by not realizing this.

I hate to have to keep on repeating myself. It won't be hard to get. The PDF Companion will be freely available to ALDHA members, the ones that take the time to fact check and compile it. If the motion passes, it will also be sold at a reasonable price to non-members.

Are you telling me there's a bootlegger brand of pirate Appalachian Trail hikers out there willing to steal anything that's not locked down? When are you people going to grow up and accept responsibility? Considering the volunteerism involved to make the Trail what it is today, your post and attitude is revolting.

[Sly]

maybe its been mentioned but when i buy a vinyl album it comes with a digital download code. Couldnt the companion do the same?

in some fashion it could work

I'm sure we'll be working on something like that to those that buy the hard copy. ALDHA is a hiker org made up of volunteers, not Madison Ave professionals. Please be patient.

[Skidsteer]

maybe its been mentioned but when i buy a vinyl album it comes with a digital download code. Couldnt the companion do the same?

in some fashion it could work

Vinyl album? I'll leave that alone. :D

Here's my take. An electronic version made available with the paper version and sold to the general public via the ATC store will likely be pirated sooner or later. It's just too easy to do and very difficult to stop.

An electronic version made available to ALDHA members only might do two things:
-increase membership
-decrease the risk of bootleg copies available online for now.

ALDHA members would, in effect, be getting a perk not available to anyone else with no increase in Association dues and would, perhaps, be disinclined to be disloyal by spreading it all over the net. It is, after all, for a good cause.

This seems like a sound strategy for a few years at least. Down the road, who knows? All media is facing this challenge and it's a doozie.

[TheChop]

Seems like a bunch of bull****, unnecessary drama and ego involved here.

[RedneckRye]

Seems like a bunch of bull****, unnecessary drama and ego involved here.

Welcome to ALDHA.

[Sly]

Seems like a bunch of bull****, unnecessary drama and ego involved here.

Yeah, thanks for the update.

[Chillfactor]

I bought a paper copy and also copied the online files and burned them to discs to give to friends for reference. I didn't carry the hard copy but made an Excel spreadsheet and created headings of: Elevation, Miles Hiked, Distance to Next Service, and Services & Features. It took some time but I became familiar with the trail that way and gave printed copies to friends to follow my progress.
The hard copy is convenient; you can read it anytime and is handy for quick referral.
Buying a copy shouldn't be such a hardship. It's less than beer and pizza and a way to support the people associated with the trail.

[WingedMonkey]

In other words, they're dying. Or at the very least not actively hiking or taking part in the hiking community.

I don't know rather to laugh or lay down my hiking poles, sink my canoe and park my bike and lay down and wait to die.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Seems like a bunch of bull****, unnecessary drama and ego involved here.
Seems to be pervasive in hiking social circles.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

Perhaps a new organization needs to take the place of the ALDHA. New blood, new ideas?

:sun

[rickb]

Why not sell the most up to date version, but offer the older one for free on a "leftover" menu?

I see the ALDHA is coming to MA next October. Never been before, but this looks good. I am happy to pay (the cost is very low) but do I need to join the organization to attend?

[Appalachian Tater]

I don't understand all the fuss. The 2010 Companion is already available as a torrent so taking it off the ALDHA website didn't accomplish anything.

[Sly]

I don't understand all the fuss. The 2010 Companion is already available as a torrent so taking it off the ALDHA website didn't accomplish anything.

The torrent wasn't available until last night.

Generally the website takes down the previous years edition before making the current year available. That way atleast hikers aren't using outdated information.

[Sly]

Why not sell the most up to date version, but offer the older one for free on a "leftover" menu?

I see the ALDHA is coming to MA next October. Never been before, but this looks good. I am happy to pay (the cost is very low) but do I need to join the organization to attend?

Although it's encouraged, you don't need to be a member of ALDHA to attend the Gathering. The Gathering itself does have a $10 fee.

[Sly]

Perhaps a new organization needs to take the place of the ALDHA. New blood, new ideas?

:sun

LOL.. yeah OK. It's a 30 year old organization with nearly 1000 members. Every year there's new members and new board members are elected. Lots of fresh ideas, like what I'm proposing to the board now.

[TJ aka Teej]

I see the ALDHA is coming to MA next October. Never been before, but this looks good. I am happy to pay (the cost is very low) but do I need to join the organization to attend?

My first Gather was up in Hanover at Dartmouth, and I've made every one I could since then. Careful Rick, they're addicting! I'm glad it's back in New England!

[WisconsinHiker2011]

LOL.. yeah OK. It's a 30 year old organization with nearly 1000 members. Every year there's new members and new board members are elected. Lots of fresh ideas, like what I'm proposing to the board now.

If you were not worried about the prospects of another organization made up of truly fresh YOUTHFUL minds, you would not have posted that.

That is all I can say for now. :sun

[Sly]

If you were not worried about the prospects of another organization made up of truly fresh YOUTHFUL minds, you would not have posted that.

That is all I can say for now. :sun

Let's not start getting ridiculous. You've never set foot on the AT yet you're out to change the entire nature of trail, closing it every 5 years to rejuvenate and now you're also worried about the guidebook.

Back up... and start worrying about your pack and weight.

[freefall]

Let's not start getting ridiculous. You've never set foot on the AT yet you're out to change the entire nature of trail, closing it every 5 years to rejuvenate and now you're also worried about the guidebook.

Back up... and start worrying about your pack and weight.

Sly, I agree with you. I also started wondering if this isn't Minnesota under a new moniker. Or simply another troll from the Midwest, maybe Minne's friend?

It is good to inject fresh blood into the AT every couple of years or so but it should at least be from someone that has long-distance hiking experience. According to this one, he does not have it.

As far as the Companion being taken offline, I do not agree it was a bad idea. While the ALDHA puts out a dynamic product, a year old copy is still a pretty good guide. After all, most people on the AT will follow the white blazes.

Most books and guides only supply sample pages online for non-paying members. The ALDHA could do this and make the PDF available online to those that pay be it through membership, hard copy purchase or membership. I don't have an opinion on that aspect.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

Let's not start getting ridiculous. You've never set foot on the AT yet you're out to change the entire nature of trail, closing it every 5 years to rejuvenate and now you're also worried about the guidebook.

Back up... and start worrying about your pack and weight.


One does not have to be President of the United States in order to vote for the President of the United States.

The argument that one needs to walk the trail before they can say anything is a weak one at best.

All I can say is that my organization is well funded and that 100% is going to go towards the A.T. and it's future.

Money is what talks in Washington, not if you walked the trail or not.

[Wil]

ll I can say is that my organization is well funded and that 100% is going to go towards the A.T. and it's [sic] future.D-. Best I can give this as a troll grade.

[kanga]

One does not have to be President of the United States in order to vote for the President of the United States.

The argument that one needs to walk the trail before they can say anything is a weak one at best.

All I can say is that my organization is well funded and that 100% is going to go towards the A.T. and it's future.

Money is what talks in Washington, not if you walked the trail or not.
you should join aldha, get on the board, and really make a difference! :banana

[Cookerhiker]

One does not have to be President of the United States in order to vote for the President of the United States.

The argument that one needs to walk the trail before they can say anything is a weak one at best.

All I can say is that my organization is well funded and that 100% is going to go towards the A.T. and it's future.

Money is what talks in Washington, not if you walked the trail or not.

This is admittedly a nitpick which I never point out to others. I make mistakes also and you know, people in glass houses.....

But since you've told us in so many words how brilliant you are, mensa, IQ, 3 degrees etc. etc.,

I suggest you learn basic grammar.

[Wil]

3 degrees etc. etc.From the "University of Madison."

Not the University of Wisconsin, or the University of Wisconsin at Madison, or the UW-Madison.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

Sadly I fear no constructive discussion can take place in this thread anymore. The reason is obvious, a rude and aggressive stance taken by the majority of posters. I am shocked at the vicious nature of many posters here.

Thank god WhiteBlaze represents a tiny majority of the people who actually hike the trail.

I will try to discuss the items I brought up in here in 1 months time. Hopefully people will be nicer.

I will also note that I have never and will never be nasty to anyone on here. I consider you all family, and would never treat you with the disrespect that you have shown me. I have always and will always be civil.