Will the A.T. ever be limited?

[WisconsinHiker2011]

:welcome

I am new to hiking, but from my perspective it seems the A.T. is heavily overused. I have been looking at pictures of the trail posted by fellow users here and a fair amount of them show damaged lands, garbage, etc.

It seems the A.T. takes a heavy beating from people!. I am planning a thru-hike in 2012, and I am worrying what damage I will see. I really do not want to hike a overused and damaged trail, and what Backpacker magazine has said worries me! ( A few issues ago )

It has forced me to think about the future of the A.T., and possible solutions.

1: Limit the number of people allowed to hike the entire A.T. each year.

1a: Stagger the release of hikers from the start. For example, allow only 20 to leave one day, 10 the next, 0 the third, 20 the next, etc.. which fits with my next suggestion.

2: Require thru-hikers to purchase a National Trail tag of some sort, say starting at $250. ( this will keep many of the crazies and undesirables off the trail as well if strictly enforced )

3: Every 5rd year, close the entire trail for 2 years to all traffic both day and thru hikers, to allow nature to recover itself. This will also allow major repairs to the trails to take place, shelters, water, etc.

I have more ideas I want to share but I am still working on them. I sent the above ideas to my State and Federal representatives for them to consider, and as I get more involved in the A.T. I hope to one day take the trail to the next level, without further damaging the trail.

Also note the National Trail Tag can be 'loaded' up to allow access to all of the National Trails, and you would be able to buy access on a per year basis, or a lifetime access. The only issue with this is that it has to be totally assured legally that 100% of the proceeds from these sales go directly to the benefit of the A.T. and/or the other trails one can load the card up with.

For example, if one pays for a lifetime access to the CDT, those funds can ONLY be used for the direct benefit of the CDT. Nothing else!

What do you all think? I know that these ideas are strange and some directly go against what the A.T. is about, but something needs to be done to save the trail for future generations, and heck, even improve it! :banana

[WisconsinHiker2011]

I meant for the title to be 'Should the A.T. ever be limited'

Sorry bout that.

[Sly]

I've seen naive before but you take the cake. Do you realize how impossible it would be either to patrol and close off the National Scenic Trails for 1 day never mind years at a time?

Since your experience is in pictures, why not hike the trail first before making any claims, or suggestions. The ATC and it's maintaining clubs do a remarkable job keeping the trail open and relo-ing the damaged parts

I also find it ironic you want to have a $250 fee but are unwilling to pay $10 but support piracy.

[Graywolf]

I've seen naive before but you take the cake. Do you realize how impossible it would be either to patrol and close off the National Scenic Trails for 1 day never mind years at a time?

Since your experience is in pictures, why not hike the trail first before making any claims, or suggestions. The ATC and it's maintaining clubs do a remarkable job keeping the trail open and relo-ing the damaged parts

I also find it ironic you want to have a $250 fee but are unwilling to pay $10 but support piracy.

That was my thought to Sly.. You beat me to it...

[TallShark]

and what Backpacker magazine has said worries me! ( A few issues ago )


^ this is your problem, go hike and if you feel so inclined to make a difference join a trail maintaining crew.

[SMSP]

:bse

Well, thats how I feel about it.

SMSP

[4eyedbuzzard]

:welcome

I am new to hiking, but from my perspective it seems the A.T. is heavily overused.
How would you know if you are new to hiking?


I have been looking at pictures of the trail posted by fellow users here and a fair amount of them show damaged lands, garbage, etc.

It seems the A.T. takes a heavy beating from people!. I am planning a thru-hike in 2012, and I am worrying what damage I will see.
Don't worry, it's mostly trees.


I really do not want to hike a overused and damaged trail, and what Backpacker magazine has said worries me! ( A few issues ago )
Backpacker magazine is a left coast publication, in more ways than one. If there were no issues, they'd invent some to write about. They are more into hyping gear than anything else, cause that's what pays the bills.


It has forced me to think about the future of the A.T., and possible solutions.

1: Limit the number of people allowed to hike the entire A.T. each year.Somewhere between 70% and maybe even 90% (according to some) don't finish anyway.


1a: Stagger the release of hikers from the start. For example, allow only 20 to leave one day, 10 the next, 0 the third, 20 the next, etc.. which fits with my next suggestion.
Who is going to enforce that? And how?


2: Require thru-hikers to purchase a National Trail tag of some sort, say starting at $250. ( this will keep many of the crazies and undesirables off the trail as well if strictly enforced )
Regressive. Besides, most hikers are inherently "crazy" or "undesireable" - or even mweinstones.


3: Every 5rd year, close the entire trail for 2 years to all traffic both day and thru hikers, to allow nature to recover itself. This will also allow major repairs to the trails to take place, shelters, water, etc.

I have more ideas I want to share but I am still working on them. I sent the above ideas to my State and Federal representatives for them to consider, and as I get more involved in the A.T. I hope to one day take the trail to the next level, without further damaging the trail.
There are parts of the trail that would grow in in one year to the point of barely being able to find it, never mind two. It's a trail. It has to be used to remain a trail.


Also note the National Trail Tag can be 'loaded' up to allow access to all of the National Trails, and you would be able to buy access on a per year basis, or a lifetime access. The only issue with this is that it has to be totally assured legally that 100% of the proceeds from these sales go directly to the benefit of the A.T. and/or the other trails one can load the card up with.

For example, if one pays for a lifetime access to the CDT, those funds can ONLY be used for the direct benefit of the CDT. Nothing else!

What do you all think? I know that these ideas are strange and some directly go against what the A.T. is about, but something needs to be done to save the trail for future generations, and heck, even improve it! :banana

I think you need to take a hike and rethink a lot of this and also learn a bit more about the legislation and the various governmental jurisdictions along the trail. It isn't anywhere near as politically simple as you seem to think. There are several different federal agencies, 14 states and their agencies, lots more counties and local goverments, all of whom own and have jurisdiction over various parts of the AT. Many of the types of lands it passes through all have different prescribed uses as well.

But beyond the annual Springer fever carnival damage, the AT is just fine. It has survived the popularization of thru-hiking. It's been rerouted in sections, and there are parts that may be rerouted again if impact gets too great. The worst thing would be if politicians got involved trying to "improve it" beyond simply protecting the corridor and surrounding areas from development.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

I've seen naive before but you take the cake. Do you realize how impossible it would be either to patrol and close off the National Scenic Trails for 1 day never mind years at a time?

Since your experience is in pictures, why not hike the trail first before making any claims, or suggestions. The ATC and it's maintaining clubs do a remarkable job keeping the trail open and relo-ing the damaged parts

I also find it ironic you want to have a $250 fee but are unwilling to pay $10 but support piracy.


And what you fail to realize over and over that I PURCHASED the 2011 Companion through the ATC store.

[mcskinney]

:welcome

3: Every 5rd year,

enough said

[WisconsinHiker2011]

I've seen naive before but you take the cake. Do you realize how impossible it would be either to patrol and close off the National Scenic Trails for 1 day never mind years at a time?

Since your experience is in pictures, why not hike the trail first before making any claims, or suggestions. The ATC and it's maintaining clubs do a remarkable job keeping the trail open and relo-ing the damaged parts

I also find it ironic you want to have a $250 fee but are unwilling to pay $10 but support piracy.

I know for now it seems hard to enforce, but I am talking 50-100 years out. How well will the trail be then?

One day we will have the technology to implant a tracking tag in all newborn babies, and it will take a few generations to implement but it will be set up so if someone steps on the closed trail that is not supposed to be there, their universal account is charged the fee.

For this to work the word has to get out that the trails are closed, or else the fine based on nextgen GPS tagging is enforced.

I agree that NOW it is hard to enforce, but we can still charge people to walk the trail, and earn valuable cash for our national trails. Sure, until technology catches up it will be impossible to enforce, but at least those who truly care about the trail can pay to walk it.

We charge for National Parks, I do not think this is much of a leap.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

I am just trying to throw ideas out for the future of the A.T.
Sure, I won't be hiking it until 2012, but I still think it's OK to talk about the trail and it's future even if you did not walk the entire thing yet. In fact, I think not walking the trail yet brings a perspective that people who have walked the trail lose once they walk the trail. ;)

I understand some of my ideas are wild, but it was a wild idea that created the A.T. in the first place.

All I ask is that we be civil to each other in discussion. :cool:

[Pommes]

I know for now it seems hard to enforce, but I am talking 50-100 years out. How well will the trail be then?

One day we will have the technology to implant a tracking tag in all newborn babies, and it will take a few generations to implement but it will be set up so if someone steps on the closed trail that is not supposed to be there, their universal account is charged the fee.

For this to work the word has to get out that the trails are closed, or else the fine based on nextgen GPS tagging is enforced.

I agree that NOW it is hard to enforce, but we can still charge people to walk the trail, and earn valuable cash for our national trails. Sure, until technology catches up it will be impossible to enforce, but at least those who truly care about the trail can pay to walk it.

We charge for National Parks, I do not think this is much of a leap.

I'm about as liberal as a gay mexican at a pro choice rally in San Fransisco but you make me look like John McCain.

[So Far]

WOW! GA-ME 2010 and I didnt see anything that bad that would scare me, "damaged areas" Trail clubs do an amazing job..if ur so worried why don't u pick up a shovel and join a trail club...instead of sitting on ur ass writting to state and fedral people...yea cause they don't have other large isses to tackle. The trail was built for everyone to use...not just people who can shell out ur 250 buck fine, I mean fee.

[Figgsy13126]

"next gen GPS"...are u kiddin me? I can't take u serious guy? PLEASE stay in Wisconsin!!

Now I believe the rumors of Wisconsin leading the US in binge drinking..

I wish I could slap the stupid out of u

[TheChop]

Not saying that you're misinformed but there is no way to charge for trail access within the GSMNP. The conditions of the park's creation do not allow it without the okay by both Tennessee and North Carolina I believe if at all. It will never have an access fee attached to it.

Beyond that the GSMNP is the most traveled parts of the trail and even that is only two to three months and the way they have managed is by concentrating the impact of people in shelters and campsites. There are numerous ways to control hiker impact.

So again not saying you're misinformed. You just have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

And for the political in this thread microchipping people and keeping track via GPS isn't a liberal or a conservative thing. It's a totalitarian thing.

[Torch09]

Hey bro, put down '1984' and pick up 'The Monkey Wrench Gang.'

... assuming you can read...

[Roland]

Holy mackerel. I musta slept for 2 months, last night.

You really had me going, for a minute. Happy April Fools Day!

[Spokes]

This is what happens when the "Green Revolution" infects young minds.

[mweinstone]

who is this and what have you done with me?!

[tirebiter]

I'm, uh... I'm gonna go ahead and guess that you're not serious.


...


I have to believe you're not serious.

[fehchet]

who is this and what have you done with me?!

Glad you chimed in Matty because after reading these cockamamie rules proposed by WisconsinHiler2011 I thought they came from you cloaked with a different user name. Sadly though I realized it couldn't be you because sentence structure is too advanced for your type of incoherent ramblings. But there is some light here because the mind set is similar. However, your love of the trail precludes you from attempting to instigate what soon may be a Whiteblazer uproar.

[Big Dawg]

:welcome

I am new to hiking, but.......

awwww,, it's a newbie,,, to hiking and WB.:rolleyes:

hey mods,,, I think this one needs to be moved to the humor section.:D

[mweinstone]

this guys like bizzaro me! lmao.

[Marta]

Okay, gang, a refresher course on the rules WB discussions:

1) No politics

2) No personal insults

[restless]

Despite the ultimately impossible task of limiting usage on the AT, the OP does raise some real concerns. From a thru hikers perspective, the OP may appear to be uneducated at a minimum. But from a land managers perspective, his comments have an element of truth to them. It is true that the AT does suffer from overuse, perhaps not in its entirety, but definitely in some of the higher use locales-ie: GSMNP, Mt Rogers NRA, WMNF...The truth ,however, is that a majority of the impact does not come from the thru hikers themselves, rather it comes from the millions of day hikers and "short distance hikers" that use the trail every year. A great majority of those non-thru hikers are unfamiliar with Leave No Trace principles, low impact camping, and ultralight backpacking. They often carry what they will, and when it proves to be too much, they toss trash and other items alongside the trail or leave it at shelters. Most thru hikers seem to adhere to a pack it in pack it out ethic. It could be ,also, that for the most part they are carrying less than other trail users and have a much more manageable footprint.
The trail, however, was not designed to handle the load it is being asked to support. A prime example of this is the AT thru the Smokies, where the trail resembles a ditch more than a footpath. Most of these type of issues go unresolved due to the land managers limited resources, as well as environmental requirements needed to relocate a major portion of the AT to a more sustainable location. I do think that at some point, the ATC as well as the NPS will need to perform a process called "Limits of Acceptable Change" in regards to the AT. A lot of issues that the OP has raised could be addressed during the LAC. But as many responders have said, albeit with considerably less tact, is that there would be virtually no way to enforce the needed rules, nor to control the number of people on the trail. There are too many access points, it would be financially unfeasible to do so. The best that we can hope for is a continued effort on the part of thru hikers and others to educate themselves and other trail users on low impact principles. Perhaps some hikers that are repeatedly on the AT, should consider an alternate trail. there are plenty of trails out there yet to be hiked. Just my opinion...

[Land_Shark]

Land shark on the move. First thing stay out of my berry patch bro you are so high. Money is not the solution to this problem education is. The art of leaving no trace should be practiced and implimented every chance possible. It all starts with our youth. You have any idea how many people use this gift from GOD? and you want to place a $$$$ tag on this. GET REAL. The AT is a great place for you to experience awsome people with great ideas on how to better serve the trail, but charging money and making indivduals buy a permit goes against the reason to be there in the first place.

[restless]

but charging money and making indivduals buy a permit goes against the reason to be there in the first place.

Then how do you explain Yellowstone National PArk? The Grand Canyon? Shenandoah National Park? The AT is one of the very few National Park Service units that doesnt charge a fee. And all too often we take it for granted.

[Roland]

~
But as many responders have said, albeit with considerably less tact...

Pssst....don't bump your head as you walk through the doorway. ;)

[hikerboy57]

I think if all of us continue to practice and preach LNT, support their local hiking clubs, as well as the ATC, the damage can continue to be controlled. Most thru hikers I've met are aware of this. I believe much more of the damage is done by day hikers.

[Land_Shark]

Land shark on the move. Stay out of my berry patch bro.

[darkage]

I think if all of us continue to practice and preach LNT, support their local hiking clubs, as well as the ATC, the damage can continue to be controlled. Most thru hikers I've met are aware of this. I believe much more of the damage is done by day hikers.

And uneducated rookies like the OP ....

[restless]

And uneducated rookies like the OP ....

It doesn't take an educated person to see the damage that has occurred on the trail. Say what you will, I think the OP has raised some vital concerns that can't be ignored much longer. At least he isnt asking how to bring his tech toys along with him on the trail.

And let me throw this out there: how many people who have responded to this thread have spent a week performing trail maintenance and tread rehab on the AT? I hope, and imagine there would be a few, but I doubt that many have. Nothing like having to fix a damaged trail to see how big the impact is. And I'm not just talking trash.

[Trailbender]

GPS tags implanted in people by the government? Hopefully there would be a revolution before then.

[Front Royal Mike]

DA DA DA DA ....DA DA DA DA ...DA DA DA DA >>>>>Anybody besides me hear the Twilite Zone music ?

[darkage]

It doesn't take an educated person to see the damage that has occurred on the trail. Say what you will, I think the OP has raised some vital concerns that can't be ignored much longer. At least he isnt asking how to bring his tech toys along with him on the trail.

And let me throw this out there: how many people who have responded to this thread have spent a week performing trail maintenance and tread rehab on the AT? I hope, and imagine there would be a few, but I doubt that many have. Nothing like having to fix a damaged trail to see how big the impact is. And I'm not just talking trash.

I have, I've taken my share of crap off the trail and helped RR's quite a few times with various tasks in my area ... Try again.

[restless]

I have, I've taken my share of crap off the trail and helped RR's quite a few times with various tasks in my area ... Try again.

Thank you darkage. My post was not pointed towards you, or any one person in particular. I'm saying that a majority of the people who use the trail, rarely if ever give anything back to it. If we had more like you, this discussion would not be happening.

[darkage]

Sorry, dealing with a migraine ... not trying too come across ignorant ... I agree with you.

[Cookerhiker]

The Trail is 2,180 miles long. Thousands of people - hikers and "mere" walkers enjoy part of the Trail every year. Thruhikers, would-be thruhikers,long-mileage section hikers, weekend backpackers, day hikers, families out for a 1 hour stroll - all parties are out on the Trail. According to the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, the vast majority of Trail users are short term. Thruhikers are a small minority.

The Trail is accessible from major road crossings, secondary road crossings, Forest Service rough road crossings, side trails, towns. So the idea of charging a fee for any point Trail access is unworkable and inherently unfair unless resorting to 1984 tactics as suggested by the OP.

And in the course of those 2,180 miles, very few of it is "overutilized" and where so, only at certain times of year.

Personally, I'd like to see frequent trail users (this includes thruhikers) contribute to trail maintenance but not in the form of a legal requirement to pay a centrall-administered fee. Rather as others have said and as has been stated on other WB threads, the solution is improved education and awreness-raising for trail users, especially novices. Hikers should be encouraged to support the ATC and/or their local trail clubs through dues/contributions and/or sweat equity. I see a site like WhiteBlaze playing a significant role in promoting such awareness.

Re. what the Trail's like 50-100 years from now, I hope it is well-used if such use means people have gotten outdoors and reveled in the wonders of creation.

And re the credibility of Backpacker magazine, I too am disdainful of West Coast-based publications writing about Eastern outdoor life. Maybe it's when one such mag (not BP) referred to George Washington State Forest in VA and listed as great outdoors towns flat, hot, sticky, Salisbury, MD and traffic-choked, outlet mall-driven North Conway, NH as the top trail town in New England.

[Front Royal Mike]

My previous post could be viewed as a personal insult,Moderator feel free to remove it.I apologize (kinda got caught up in the feeding frenzy)Sorry !

[restless]

The Trail is accessible from major road crossings, secondary road crossings, Forest Service rough road crossings, side trails, towns. So the idea of charging a fee for any point Trail access is unworkable and inherently unfair unless resorting to 1984 tactics as suggested by the OP.



Does anyone have any hard numbers on how many access points there are along the AT? I would include not only paved access such as Thornton Gap, Newfound Gap, Fox Creek, but also FS road and logging roads that are less developed but nonetheless are publicly accessible. Just curious.

[Bearpaw]

The area around shelters can be pretty heavily impacted sometimes. Otherwise, the AT is the best maintained trail I've hiked and I've walked in Asia and Europe and throughout America.

Backpacker Magazine knows quite a bit about hiking the Sierras, a bit about the Colorado Rockies, a bit less about the Whites, and have doctoral theses about selling gear. They are CLUELESS about hiking the AT.

Get out on the AT and form your own experience before you tell folks who are on the trail all the time what conditions are like.

[Lone Wolf]

i bet against him

[Bearpaw]

Does anyone have any hard numbers on how many access points there are along the AT? I would include not only paved access such as Thornton Gap, Newfound Gap, Fox Creek, but also FS road and logging roads that are less developed but nonetheless are publicly accessible. Just curious.

Don't forget side access trails. Blue blazes like Wesser Creek Trail, Overmountain Victory trail, Hampton Blue Blaze, Benton MacKaye and Bartram Trail intersections come to mind in an instant. Untold numbers of trails in the Whites. Altogether, I'd think there are several 100, if not over a thousand access points.

[Pedaling Fool]

Controlling the number of thru-hikers is not a fix (even if you could do such a thing). When looking at the big picture thru-hiker's make-up a very small portion of the AT's population, it seems like a lot because of how crowded the shelters are around March in Georgia -- it's an illusion. But even then it is common not to see one person for hours during your hike. In other words the trail is not crowded, it's the shelters.

The crowds come from the non-thru-hikers in places like SNP (and then only in certain sections). I remember walking section through there and feeling like I was in a traffic jam. But it never lasts long. You only see tons of people around trailheads near stores/resturants or well known places, such as Charlies Bunion...

In the end I think the OP's concerns are understandable, but won't really be an issue, even 30 years into the future. The real problem is development and that's not unique to the AT.

[Cookerhiker]

Does anyone have any hard numbers on how many access points there are along the AT? I would include not only paved access such as Thornton Gap, Newfound Gap, Fox Creek, but also FS road and logging roads that are less developed but nonetheless are publicly accessible. Just curious.

I think a "hard" number would be impossible to come up with. Not only the varying degree of "roads" - interstates down to dirt tracks barely accessible via 4WDs - but how do you count towns? For example, is Hanover or Damascus or Hot Springs one access point or many? What about side trails - they also vary by degree of conditions and maintenance? Some are blue-blazed, some yellow-blazed, some non-maintained.

I suppose you could count up all the points referenced in the Data Book and just count the towns once.

[TheCheek]

Please do not think that all people from Wisconsin are like this.

[restless]

Please do not think that all people from Wisconsin are like this.

Like what? Thought provoking and challenging our deep rooted belief systems? I don't see anything wrong with that.

[M1 Thumb]

Please do not think that all people from Wisconsin are like this.

Too late.


For sale - Custom fitted Faraday suits guaranteed to block all electrical signals emanating from probes placed within the body by any and all government agencies. (Note - I do not guarantee effectiveness against devices implanted from extraterrestrial sources)

Order now and I will throw in a free foil beenie that shields against all known mind control and thought reading devices.

[4eyedbuzzard]

i bet against him
Naysayer :p

[4eyedbuzzard]

Please do not think that all people from Wisconsin are like this.
Okay, but I'm not buying your cheese anymore. Somethin' funny in it.

[sheepdog]

I'm about as liberal as a gay mexican at a pro choice rally in San Fransisco but you make me look like John McCain.
another liberal??

[4eyedbuzzard]

I'm about as liberal as a gay mexican at a pro choice rally in San Fransisco but you make me look like John McCain.


another liberal??

I dunno sheepdog, "gay mexican at a pro choice rally in San Fransisco" ain't particularly PC. Just sayin'

[tawa]

More effects of global warming---lol

[The Cleaner]

Hey bro, put down '1984' and pick up 'The Monkey Wrench Gang.'

... assuming you can read... Well said...:sun

[Lilred]

I'm sorry, I can't take anybody seriously who suggests planting gps chips in newborn babies. LOLOL How ludicrous!! Next we'll be hearing how this is the mark of the beast...

$250 fees for the AT? Then it will become the elitists's trail. God help it then.

I don't think I've ever seen a newbie come on whiteblaze for the first time and make such outlandish suggestions about the trail. So you read one article and you believe it? Go hiking. Go see for yourself, then make suggestions. After your hike, you're gonna feel reallllly silly about this thread...

[Lone Wolf]

:welcome

I am new to hiking, but from my perspective it seems the A.T. is heavily overused. I have been looking at pictures of the trail posted by fellow users here and a fair amount of them show damaged lands, garbage, etc.

It seems the A.T. takes a heavy beating from people!. I am planning a thru-hike in 2012, and I am worrying what damage I will see. I really do not want to hike a overused and damaged trail, and what Backpacker magazine has said worries me! ( A few issues ago )

It has forced me to think about the future of the A.T., and possible solutions.

1: Limit the number of people allowed to hike the entire A.T. each year.

1a: Stagger the release of hikers from the start. For example, allow only 20 to leave one day, 10 the next, 0 the third, 20 the next, etc.. which fits with my next suggestion.

2: Require thru-hikers to purchase a National Trail tag of some sort, say starting at $250. ( this will keep many of the crazies and undesirables off the trail as well if strictly enforced )

3: Every 5rd year, close the entire trail for 2 years to all traffic both day and thru hikers, to allow nature to recover itself. This will also allow major repairs to the trails to take place, shelters, water, etc.

I have more ideas I want to share but I am still working on them. I sent the above ideas to my State and Federal representatives for them to consider, and as I get more involved in the A.T. I hope to one day take the trail to the next level, without further damaging the trail.

Also note the National Trail Tag can be 'loaded' up to allow access to all of the National Trails, and you would be able to buy access on a per year basis, or a lifetime access. The only issue with this is that it has to be totally assured legally that 100% of the proceeds from these sales go directly to the benefit of the A.T. and/or the other trails one can load the card up with.

For example, if one pays for a lifetime access to the CDT, those funds can ONLY be used for the direct benefit of the CDT. Nothing else!

What do you all think? I know that these ideas are strange and some directly go against what the A.T. is about, but something needs to be done to save the trail for future generations, and heck, even improve it! :banana

i like your style, kid.

[double d]

another liberal??
Whats wrong with that? After all, it was the liberals who signed the National Scenic Trail Act in 1968. Look up who voted for it and against it in Congress, its clear it wasn't Conservatives (especially during an election year). So the next time your on the AT, hug a liberal!!!!!

[sheepdog]

I dunno sheepdog, "gay mexican at a pro choice rally in San Fransisco" ain't particularly PC. Just sayin'
good point...

[restless]

I'm sorry, I can't take anybody seriously who suggests planting gps chips in newborn babies. LOLOL How ludicrous!! Next we'll be hearing how this is the mark of the beast...

$250 fees for the AT? Then it will become the elitists's trail. God helop it then.

I don't think I've ever seen a newbie come on whiteblaze for the first time and make such outlandish suggestions about the trail. So you read one article and you believe it? Go hiking. Go see for yourself, then make suggestions. After your hike, you're gonna feel reallllly silly about this thread...

While I agree that some of his ideas are "outlandish" and even smack a little too much of Big Brother, the point that he was trying to make is important nonetheless. If a person can thru hike without seeing the impact that millions of people make on the trail, then I would say that those hikers need to look a little closer. I have found it interesting that people on here can consider the OP to be somewhat of a whackjob for his ideas, rather than looking at the point he was trying to make. I'd rather stand with a newbie who is concerned for the long term sustainability of the AT, than any number of thru hikers trying to figure out how to take their iPad, iPhone, GPS, laptop computer, cellphone and any other number of gear gadgets along with them so that they can stay in touch with everyone back home and tweet from a shelter every night. Get real people. The newbie OP seems to be more concerned about the trail then most others. Say what you will about his ideas, the AT has issues.

[restless]

Whats wrong with that? After all, it was the liberals who signed the National Scenic Trail Act in 1968. Look up who voted for it and against it in Congress, its clear it wasn't Conservatives (especially during an election year). So the next time your on the AT, hug a liberal!!!!!

careful double d, words like that on this thread might get you labeled as a whacko:D

[4eyedbuzzard]

i like your style, kid.
LW hedges his bet . . .

[sheepdog]

Whats wrong with that? After all, it was the liberals who signed the National Scenic Trail Act in 1968. Look up who voted for it and against it in Congress, its clear it wasn't Conservatives (especially during an election year). So the next time your on the AT, hug a liberal!!!!!
someones bobbing my cork ;)


I was just pointing out there were no opposites in that post

[Lone Wolf]

So the next time your on the AT, bitch-slap a liberal!!!!!

will do.......

[sheepdog]

i like your style, kid.


LW hedges his bet . . .

could be false encouragement

[4eyedbuzzard]

could be false encouragement

Or just

http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/angry/stirthepot.gif

[sheepdog]

Or just

http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/angry/stirthepot.gif
never :eek:

not da wolf

[4eyedbuzzard]

never :eek:

not da wolf
Sorry, lost my head for a minute there. WHAT was I thinking...

[Hoot]

:welcome

2: Require thru-hikers to purchase a National Trail tag of some sort, say starting at $250. ( this will keep many of the crazies and undesirables off the trail as well if strictly enforced )


well.. wait.. what about the guy who hikes a few sections over a year or two then decides to do the entire trail over a 10 year period.. 12 yrs later he finnishes the trail..

when does he pay his 250 bucks?

should he have forked out 250 bucks for the right to hike his first time out ever?

or ought he to pay up once he decides to continue section hiking untill he's completely done?

if he pay's up when he first decides to complete the entire trail, but it takes 10 more yrs and the price has went from 250 to 500 must he pay off the rest?

or what if the price has dropped to 200 will he get his money back?

would he be charged extra for doing the approach trail?

what if his last section is Baxter park, makes it half way up kathadin and decides enough is enuff- and looses up his desire to hike any further, in the minds of many he didnt complete his thru hike, will he be refunded his 250 since he wasn't in the minds of some a true "thru Hiker"

[Smile]

Nothing is impossible :)

[Slo-go'en]

The only impact hikers have on the trail is ensuring it stays a trail. If the tread way isn't frequently walked on, the blow downs cleared and the brush cut back, it would quickly disapper. With in 5 years it would be hard to follow and in 10 it would be all but gone.

Statisics like "millions of people use the AT each year" are miss leading. The vast majority of those millions are tourists in the two national parks the trail traverses, who go maybe a 1 mile or less up the trail to an outlook or something. Yes, you can definately see the impact all these people have on those short sections of trail, but it is only a insignificant percentage of the whole trail.

There are bigger concerns, like encorching development and expansions of highways through gaps. Those are the threats to the trail in the long term, not over use. In fact, the more it is used, the more likely it will stay protected.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

:welcome

I am new to hiking, but from my perspective it seems the A.T. is heavily overused. I have been looking at pictures of the trail posted by fellow users here and a fair amount of them show damaged lands, garbage, etc.

It seems the A.T. takes a heavy beating from people!. I am planning a thru-hike in 2012, and I am worrying what damage I will see. I really do not want to hike a overused and damaged trail, and what Backpacker magazine has said worries me! ( A few issues ago )

It has forced me to think about the future of the A.T., and possible solutions.

1: Limit the number of people allowed to hike the entire A.T. each year.

1a: Stagger the release of hikers from the start. For example, allow only 20 to leave one day, 10 the next, 0 the third, 20 the next, etc.. which fits with my next suggestion.

2: Require thru-hikers to purchase a National Trail tag of some sort, say starting at $250. ( this will keep many of the crazies and undesirables off the trail as well if strictly enforced )

3: Every 5rd year, close the entire trail for 2 years to all traffic both day and thru hikers, to allow nature to recover itself. This will also allow major repairs to the trails to take place, shelters, water, etc.

I have more ideas I want to share but I am still working on them. I sent the above ideas to my State and Federal representatives for them to consider, and as I get more involved in the A.T. I hope to one day take the trail to the next level, without further damaging the trail.

Also note the National Trail Tag can be 'loaded' up to allow access to all of the National Trails, and you would be able to buy access on a per year basis, or a lifetime access. The only issue with this is that it has to be totally assured legally that 100% of the proceeds from these sales go directly to the benefit of the A.T. and/or the other trails one can load the card up with.

For example, if one pays for a lifetime access to the CDT, those funds can ONLY be used for the direct benefit of the CDT. Nothing else!

What do you all think? I know that these ideas are strange and some directly go against what the A.T. is about, but something needs to be done to save the trail for future generations, and heck, even improve it! :banana



As you can see by now, already just 4 days of your join date, you're not going to make many friends here by suggesting all these restrictions on us! In fact I believe you've already made some enemies. Many people who do NOT litter the trail and hike it and respect it and the forests in general maybe cannot afford to pay outrageous prices just for the opportunity to use "YOUR" trail, which you seem to think you own already..And writing to your representatives to try and get these restrictions imposed on people!! YOU'RE A JERK!!! But that's just my opinion and I stick by it!!!
As someone else said... if you're so fired up about trail trash JOIN a volunteer group and get your loud mouthed butt to work cleaning it up!
Do you think that only people who can afford to buy those permits won't trash the trail???!!!
I'm not rich worth a darn. In fact I'm probably one of the poorest people on this site and I NEVER leave trash in the woods...on the AT and anywhere else!! It doesn'tmatter where it is or what the regulations are or even if there are any regulations, I don't trash the woods and many more on this site or the trail do not and YOU want to make it harder on every one because of the few that do and because you think your crap don't stink!
Some one said "No body likes you." Include me in that group!
Have a great day with your congressmen! :mad:

[restless]

As you can see by now, already just 4 days of your join date, you're not going to make many friends here by suggesting all these restrictions on us! In fact I believe you've already made some enemies. Many people who do NOT litter the trail and hike it and respect it and the forests in general maybe cannot afford to pay outrageous prices just for the opportunity to use "YOUR" trail, which you seem to think you own already..And writing to your representatives to try and get these restrictions imposed on people!! YOU'RE A JERK!!! But that's just my opinion and I stick by it!!!
As someone else said... if you're so fired up about trail trash JOIN a volunteer group and get your loud mouthed butt to work cleaning it up!
Do you think that only people who can afford to buy those permits won't trash the trail???!!!
I'm not rich worth a darn. In fact I'm probably one of the poorest people on this site and I NEVER leave trash in the woods...on the AT and anywhere else!! It doesn'tmatter where it is or what the regulations are or even if there are any regulations, I don't trash the woods and many more on this site or the trail do not and YOU want to make it harder on every one because of the few that do and because you think your crap don't stink!
Some one said "No body likes you." Include me in that group!
Have a great day with your congressmen! :mad:

From the tone of your post, I would question who the real "Jerk" is. Thank you for not leaving trash, and I would agree with you that most people on this site do the same. However, just because you don't, and others on here don't leave trash on the trail, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Thru-hikers, section hikers and day hikers alike are all guilty. I have seen it first hand. And despite the fact that the OP has some far-flung ideas, doesn't detract from his intent about the trail being over used. That fact is undeniable to any person who looks close enough. Ask any number of land managers along the trail. It is a constant battle to keep up with the amount of usage the trail receives. And so far as it being the OP's trail, after a fashion it is. It is public land and belongs to the American people whether they have ever set foot on it or not. It is a national treasure and should be treated as such. Take your hatred elsewhere. It doesn't belong here.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

:banana
"next gen GPS"...are u kiddin me? I can't take u serious guy? PLEASE stay in Wisconsin!!

Now I believe the rumors of Wisconsin leading the US in binge drinking..

I wish I could slap the stupid out of u

Way to go Figgsy!! My hat's off to you!!! My feelings precisely!! U da man! :banana

[restless]

The only impact hikers have on the trail is ensuring it stays a trail. If the tread way isn't frequently walked on, the blow downs cleared and the brush cut back, it would quickly disapper. With in 5 years it would be hard to follow and in 10 it would be all but gone.

Statisics like "millions of people use the AT each year" are miss leading. The vast majority of those millions are tourists in the two national parks the trail traverses, who go maybe a 1 mile or less up the trail to an outlook or something. Yes, you can definately see the impact all these people have on those short sections of trail, but it is only a insignificant percentage of the whole trail.

There are bigger concerns, like encorching development and expansions of highways through gaps. Those are the threats to the trail in the long term, not over use. In fact, the more it is used, the more likely it will stay protected.

probably one of the most reasonable posts on this thread. I agree with you that encroaching development is a bigger concern.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

And what you fail to realize over and over that I PURCHASED the 2011 Companion through the ATC store.

You want a medal, or a chest to pin it on? So do you think that makes you "Trail God?" :rolleyes:

[Cookerhiker]

While I agree that some of his ideas are "outlandish" and even smack a little too much of Big Brother, the point that he was trying to make is important nonetheless. If a person can thru hike without seeing the impact that millions of people make on the trail, then I would say that those hikers need to look a little closer. I have found it interesting that people on here can consider the OP to be somewhat of a whackjob for his ideas, rather than looking at the point he was trying to make. I'd rather stand with a newbie who is concerned for the long term sustainability of the AT, than any number of thru hikers trying to figure out how to take their iPad, iPhone, GPS, laptop computer, cellphone and any other number of gear gadgets along with them so that they can stay in touch with everyone back home and tweet from a shelter every night. Get real people. The newbie OP seems to be more concerned about the trail then most others. Say what you will about his ideas, the AT has issues.

Sorry, I don't agree. First of all, lots of us have concerns about the AT's short-range and long-range future and the impact of heavy use on certain parts. Even if not mentioned on WB as frequently as you'd like, keep in mind that WB is only a small part of the AT Community. So it's not like the OP is the only one who points out some trail problems while all the rest of us are wandering along in our own insular world.

The ATC and the maintaining clubs constantly examine the Trail from both grass-roots and big picture levels. When something short-term needs to be done - trail re-routing, repairing switchbacks, building water bars - the work is done by the local club. In those sections where heavier use leads to degradation, ridgerunners patrol the trails passing out information and helping hikers. Areas of seasonal heavy use e.g. Georgia in Spring are well-tended by the local clubs.

For medium-sized projects taking more than 1-2 people working on a weekend, the ATC assists with its grants to maintain clubs for medium-sized projects and through funding the various summer work crews. Moreover, the ATC focuses much on long-range strategic thinking and planning, looking at protection of the overall Trail corridor in order to enhance the outdoors experience, getting students interested, working with the feds, local governments, local communities, promoting the Trail to the public.

The problem with the OP is that there's no evidence from his postings that he's aware of any of this. He diagnoses a problem which is arguably valid (in a context) but proceeds to recommend a "solution" without considering ongoing efforts and processes which to a large part address his concerns, and also failing to realize that some issues call for a more complex analysis and remedy than simply imposing fees.

And the fact that he hasn't first-hand seen much of (or any?) of the Trail doesn't lend credence to his position.

[Tilly]

A little rough Lone Ridge! Yikes!

I personally this that lots of use is the best for trails...for ANY trail. I am not as versed in other LD trails as some on this site, but I've backpacked in MN, MI, KY, etc...and hardly seen souls.

More people, more volunteers, more support, more Forest Service/gov't support...more people equals better trails.

I am sure that the Ice Age trail foundation would love to have a sharp increase in users.

Leaving trails unused for year/s will not help them. Just something to think about.

Any dayhiker areas seem to have the most trash.

[double d]

will do.......
Haaa LW, using a little creative editing with my posting I see!:eek:

[Wise Old Owl]

Don't worry, it's mostly trees.


Regressive. Besides, most hikers are inherently "crazy" or "undesireable" - or even mweinstones.





http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/__OWLq.gif

I'm stumped mommy, what did he mean by that? -

[Lone Wolf]

Haaa LW, using a little creative editing with my posting I see!:eek:

all in fun :)

[restless]

Sorry, I don't agree. First of all, lots of us have concerns about the AT's short-range and long-range future and the impact of heavy use on certain parts. Even if not mentioned on WB as frequently as you'd like, keep in mind that WB is only a small part of the AT Community. So it's not like the OP is the only one who points out some trail problems while all the rest of us are wandering along in our own insular world.

The ATC and the maintaining clubs constantly examine the Trail from both grass-roots and big picture levels. When something short-term needs to be done - trail re-routing, repairing switchbacks, building water bars - the work is done by the local club. In those sections where heavier use leads to degradation, ridgerunners patrol the trails passing out information and helping hikers. Areas of seasonal heavy use e.g. Georgia in Spring are well-tended by the local clubs.

For medium-sized projects taking more than 1-2 people working on a weekend, the ATC assists with its grants to maintain clubs for medium-sized projects and through funding the various summer work crews. Moreover, the ATC focuses much on long-range strategic thinking and planning, looking at protection of the overall Trail corridor in order to enhance the outdoors experience, getting students interested, working with the feds, local governments, local communities, promoting the Trail to the public.

The problem with the OP is that there's no evidence from his postings that he's aware of any of this. He diagnoses a problem which is arguably valid (in a context) but proceeds to recommend a "solution" without considering ongoing efforts and processes which to a large part address his concerns, and also failing to realize that some issues call for a more complex analysis and remedy than simply imposing fees.

And the fact that he hasn't first-hand seen much of (or any?) of the Trail doesn't lend credence to his position.

Cooker--
Well put. I wish more people took time to think out their positions as opposed to simply leveling personal attacks. I do agree that most, however not all, WB'ers seem to be concerned about issues raised in this thread. As I have previously said, I don't believe long distance hikers to be the main problem. A majority of issues the trail faces, especially as related to trash and heavily impacted areas are a result of day and overnight usage. While ATC, the maintaining clubs and the various trail crews do a wonderful job of dealing with trail degradation, they cannot fix all of it. The GSMNP is a prime example, along with Mt Rogers NRA, both high use areas that see more impact as a result of short term users. Other issues are more difficult to address such as conditions that exist in Maine. The problem up there is a limited trail corridor, although with recent land acquisitions by AMC, I am hopeful that positive changes can be made there as well. Also, I would be the first to agree that the OP's "solutions" stem from a lack of knowledge of ongoing efforts. I would also say that they just aren't based in reality.
Once again, thanks for your well thought out position. Although we may disagree on solutions, I think we can agree as to the problem.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

From the tone of your post, I would question who the real "Jerk" is. Thank you for not leaving trash, and I would agree with you that most people on this site do the same. However, just because you don't, and others on here don't leave trash on the trail, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Thru-hikers, section hikers and day hikers alike are all guilty. I have seen it first hand. And despite the fact that the OP has some far-flung ideas, doesn't detract from his intent about the trail being over used. That fact is undeniable to any person who looks close enough. Ask any number of land managers along the trail. It is a constant battle to keep up with the amount of usage the trail receives. And so far as it being the OP's trail, after a fashion it is. It is public land and belongs to the American people whether they have ever set foot on it or not. It is a national treasure and should be treated as such. Take your hatred elsewhere. It doesn't belong here.

So apparently you agree that imposing high fees for trail use would stop trash from being left on the trails? Get real man!! Hatred? I love the outdoors and it was created by God for ALL to enjoy, not just those who can fork out outrageous fees for it. I have nothing else to say to you! You're just not worth it. I don't need or desire your approval. Yes, I see trash on all trails at times but it's not like the entire trail is a public landfill as you and the OP tend to imply.

[Northern Lights]

Wow, tough crowd!

[Lone Wolf]

Wow, tough crowd!

testosteronefest. me? i'm sensitive. i watch oprah and stuff. these hateful discussions bother me

[restless]

So apparently you agree that imposing high fees for trail use would stop trash from being left on the trails? Get real man!! Hatred? I love the outdoors and it was created by God for ALL to enjoy, not just those who can fork out outrageous fees for it. I have nothing else to say to you! You're just not worth it. I don't need or desire your approval. Yes, I see trash on all trails at times but it's not like the entire trail is a public landfill as you and the OP tend to imply.

At no point have I implied the things you accuse me of. No, fees will not stop trash from being left on trails. As a matter of fact, I don't believe anything we do will stop that. While I am opposed to fees for public land, I see their benefit. The Forest Service and Park Service are drastically underfunded and their budgets continue to be cut, so most of the time, these fees are the only way, to accomplish some of the things they do. I also don't believe that trash is the major problem the AT faces. tread degradation from overuse, encroachment from private development, and a reduction in volunteerism with local maintaing clubs are much more serious issues. It's such a shame you don't think I am worth talking to. We could have some valuable dialogue.

[hikerboy57]

One possible side effect of charging fees is that some may feel entitled to be MORE abusive of the trail environment, feeling they are "paying someone to clean up after them". Look how nice and clean most campgrounds are compared to MOST of the AT.

[restless]

testosteronefest. me? i'm sensitive. i watch oprah and stuff. these hateful discussions bother me

Oprah?Really? Did I miss the Ted Nugent guest spot?

[Cookerhiker]

So apparently you agree that imposing high fees for trail use would stop trash from being left on the trails? Get real man!! Hatred? I love the outdoors and it was created by God for ALL to enjoy, not just those who can fork out outrageous fees for it. I have nothing else to say to you! You're just not worth it. I don't need or desire your approval. Yes, I see trash on all trails at times but it's not like the entire trail is a public landfill as you and the OP tend to imply.

In none of his posts did Restless advocate "imposing high fees for trail use."

[Lone Wolf]

Oprah?Really? Did I miss the Ted Nugent guest spot?

Ted's on tonite at 8PM on Fox with huckabee

[Northern Lights]

testosteronefest. me? i'm sensitive. i watch oprah and stuff. these hateful discussions bother me


Sheesh, man. I don't even watch Oprah:D

[LoneRidgeRunner]

One possible side effect of charging fees is that some may feel entitled to be MORE abusive of the trail environment, feeling they are "paying someone to clean up after them". Look how nice and clean most campgrounds are compared to MOST of the AT.

Another well put thought and point..

[Cookerhiker]

testosteronefest. me? i'm sensitive. i watch oprah and stuff. these hateful discussions bother me

He also enjoys white wine, tofu quiche, listens to Chopin, attends the opera and Shakespeare plays, speaks eloquent French, patronizes fine art museums, and engages in sport such as squash and polo.

[Lone Wolf]

and tournament badminton

[LoneRidgeRunner]

Sheesh, man. I don't even watch Oprah:D
Me either....

[4eyedbuzzard]

He also enjoys white wine, tofu quiche, listens to Chopin, attends the opera and Shakespeare plays, speaks eloquent French, patronizes fine art museums, and engages in sport such as squash and polo.

You left out that he reported cried when Keith Olbermann was fired.

[restless]

BTW- I love it when more people use the trail. Keeps me employed.

[TallShark]

Land shark on the move. First thing stay out of my berry patch bro you are so high. Money is not the solution to this problem education is. The art of leaving no trace should be practiced and implimented every chance possible. It all starts with our youth. You have any idea how many people use this gift from GOD? and you want to place a $$$$ tag on this. GET REAL. The AT is a great place for you to experience awsome people with great ideas on how to better serve the trail, but charging money and making indivduals buy a permit goes against the reason to be there in the first place.

......+1 nuff said

[Sly]

The trail, however, was not designed to handle the load it is being asked to support. A prime example of this is the AT thru the Smokies, where the trail resembles a ditch more than a footpath. Most of these type of issues go unresolved due to the land managers limited resources, as well as environmental requirements needed to relocate a major portion of the AT to a more sustainable location.

I'm under the impression horses cause the ditch effect more so than hikers. It's too bad horses can't be taken off the AT entirely.

[sheepdog]

In none of his posts did Restless advocate "imposing high fees for trail use."
don't start confusing things with the facts!!


get the pitchforks and torches

[sheepdog]

You left out that he reported cried when Keith Olbermann was fired.
an likes long walks on the beach (in the surf line only) and puppies

[restless]

I'm under the impression horses cause the ditch effect more so than hikers. It's too bad horses can't be taken off the AT entirely.

I won't argue that point Sly. But there are very few areas that horses are permitted on the AT.

[restless]

I'm under the impression horses cause the ditch effect more so than hikers. It's too bad horses can't be taken off the AT entirely.

And actually, erosion, caused by water on the trail, causes more. The solution?

[Sly]

And re the credibility of Backpacker magazine, I too am disdainful of West Coast-based publications writing about Eastern outdoor life. Maybe it's when one such mag (not BP) referred to George Washington State Forest in VA and listed as great outdoors towns flat, hot, sticky, Salisbury, MD and traffic-choked, outlet mall-driven North Conway, NH as the top trail town in New England.

It's not fair to critisize Backpacker in your example and for most of BP's life it was an east coast publication (PA).

[Northern Lights]

He also enjoys white wine, tofu quiche, listens to Chopin, attends the opera and Shakespeare plays, speaks eloquent French, patronizes fine art museums, and engages in sport such as squash and polo.

Wow, if he didn't watch Oprah I'd ask if he was married! lol

[Luddite]

Backpacker magazine is a left coast publication, in more ways than one. If there were no issues, they'd invent some to write about. They are more into hyping gear than anything else, cause that's what pays the bills.


Yeah, and I know what issue he read. One of the writers said the AT is for post-grads and hippies who want to be able to order a pizza from a shelter. Something stupid like that.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly View Post
I'm under the impression horses cause the ditch effect more so than hikers. It's too bad horses can't be taken off the AT entirely.


I won't argue that point Sly. But there are very few areas that horses are permitted on the AT.

See Restless? Now we agree on something. As you said, there are very few places where horses are permitted on the AT ... But they do do much more damage to the trail than hikers. And as far as trash goes..the very worst and most sickening trash damage I have ever seen on a trail anywhere was in GSMNP on the Hazel Creek trail where horses were allowed. (Not the AT but I did have to walk the AT for 6 miles to get there from Clingman's Dome) This wasn't trash left by hikers because it was 2 quart bean cans, 2 liter soda bottles, 1 quart vegetable oil bottles, etc..that back packers won't carry the 13 miles it takes to get there. (Calhoun Backcountry campsite # 82) It would have taken at least 4 or 5 pick up loads to haul that mess out of there. It had to have been left by horse riders. These guys didn't even have to carry out their trash. The horses would have.
In view of the fact that the horse people show the least respect for the trail maybe the horse riders should be the people who have to foot the bill by paying the fee suggested by the the OP.
Peace Dude...

[Sly]

And actually, erosion, caused by water on the trail, causes more. The solution?

You're the trail maintainer but let me guess... side graded trail and water bars?

[restless]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly View Post
I'm under the impression horses cause the ditch effect more so than hikers. It's too bad horses can't be taken off the AT entirely.



See Restless? Now we agree on something. As you said, there are very few places where horses are permitted on the AT ... But they do do much more damage to the trail than hikers. And as far as trash goes..the very worst and most sickening trash damage I have ever seen on a trail anywhere was in GSMNP on the Hazel Creek trail where horses were allowed. (Not the AT but I did have to walk the AT for 6 miles to get there from Clingman's Dome) This wasn't trash left by hikers because it was 2 quart bean cans, 2 liter soda bottles, 1 quart vegetable oil bottles, etc..that back packers won't carry the 13 miles it takes to get there. (Calhoun Backcountry campsite # 82) It would have taken at least 4 or 5 pick up loads to haul that mess out of there. It had to have been left by horse riders. These guys didn't even have to carry out their trash. The horses would have.
In view of the fact that the horse people show the least respect for the trail maybe the horse riders should be the people who have to foot the bill by paying the fee suggested by the the OP.
Peace Dude...

No argument here. While working as a backcountry ranger at Mt. Rogers, I could follow the trail of empty beer cans to a group of equestrians. It always amazed me that they could carry in a full twelve pack, but couldn't seem to ever pack out their own trash. There are times when they do have their value, especially when it comes to clearing blowdowns deep in the backcountry, but horses cause considerably more damage than hikers.

[restless]

You're the trail maintainer but let me guess... side graded trail and water bars?

Most of the time that works fine. But there are times that there is no solution other than to relocate the trail. In some of the most heavily damaged areas though, this cannot be accomplished due to a) governmental regulations, or b). lack of adequate corridor space to accomplish a reroute. BTW-missed you last night at the PA Ruck.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Why don't we just pave the damn trail (http://pavetheappalachiantrail.org/) already

[wvgrinder]

I think making the AT a one way trail (north to south) would cut down the traffic quite a bit. :eek:

[LoneRidgeRunner]

I think making the AT a one way trail (north to south) would cut down the traffic quite a bit. :eek:

Probably just as much traffic. If someone wants to hike it they will regardless of direction...but why not make it South to North?

[Cookerhiker]

Probably just as much traffic. If someone wants to hike it they will regardless of direction...but why not make it South to North?

I think his theory is that if you're looking just at thruhikers (again, a small subset of Trail users), most hike NOBO and most of these aren't likely to then do a SOBO instead. So his "plan" reduces the # of thrus.

But section hikers, all other trail users? Don't think it makes a difference.

[Bucherm]

Why don't we just pave the damn trail (http://pavetheappalachiantrail.org/) already


Man I hope that's some kinda weird joke

[sheepdog]

Man I hope that's some kinda weird joke
part of the economic stimulus package

[hikerboy57]

I think making the AT a one way trail (north to south) would cut down the traffic quite a bit. :eek:
The SOBOS are ruining everything!
From the # of responses to this post, I can see that we can all agree to disagree, but its an excellent opportunity to recognize that overuseiIS aproblem, and that discussion of solutions is in all of our best interests.

[endubyu]

We go to the woods to escape humanity. If you want fewer people on the trail give them more places to go. Reroute the trail around GSMNP where there is the most traffic (oh yeah can't - no place to put it). More government, more regulations will do more harm than good - history has proven that. Leave the woods as they are and allow those who wish to go there the opportunity to do so and to enjoy them the way that is best for them. Why should I be limited by your vision? Or can I put my vision in place and have all others abide by my wishes? Who gets to decide? Let nature decide for herself. It is arrogance and selfishness that destroy the trail. It is arrogance and selfishness that will destroy our planet. Do your part, as I will do mine, and set an example for others.

[Bucherm]

part of the economic stimulus package

Don't get me started.

(My economic stimulus package would have been "replace every fossil fuel plant in America with a nuclear one," as nuclear plants can be a virtual start-to-finish expenditure in the North American economy)

[restless]

We go to the woods to escape humanity. If you want fewer people on the trail give them more places to go. Reroute the trail around GSMNP where there is the most traffic (oh yeah can't - no place to put it). More government, more regulations will do more harm than good - history has proven that. Leave the woods as they are and allow those who wish to go there the opportunity to do so and to enjoy them the way that is best for them. Why should I be limited by your vision? Or can I put my vision in place and have all others abide by my wishes? Who gets to decide? Let nature decide for herself. It is arrogance and selfishness that destroy the trail. It is arrogance and selfishness that will destroy our planet. Do your part, as I will do mine, and set an example for others.

Well put. I would only argue with your point that "more regulations will do more harm than good". Perhaps from a hikers perspective , yes. But the purpose of those regulations isn't for hikers. It's for the resources. Here in Shenandoah, there is very little rerouting that can occur on park trails due to resource protection. There is sensitive habitat and endangered species to consider. Plus, a lot of the time, the red tape just isn't worth working through. But I believe you hit on the crux of the issue when you stated "If you want fewer people on the trail give them more places to go." We need to spread out a little.

[tirebiter]

Why don't we just pave the damn trail (http://pavetheappalachiantrail.org/) already

ahaha that is too good. I was really worried for the five seconds before I got it.

[Luddite]

Why don't we just pave the damn trail (http://pavetheappalachiantrail.org/) already

I really would not be surprised if that happened. They paved the south rim of the Grand Canyon...

[4eyedbuzzard]

I really would not be surprised if that happened. They paved the south rim of the Grand Canyon...
It's an idea thats time has come. Besides, it's a shovel ready project.

[Cookerhiker]

We go to the woods to escape humanity. If you want fewer people on the trail give them more places to go. Reroute the trail around GSMNP where there is the most traffic (oh yeah can't - no place to put it). More government, more regulations will do more harm than good - history has proven that. Leave the woods as they are and allow those who wish to go there the opportunity to do so and to enjoy them the way that is best for them. Why should I be limited by your vision? Or can I put my vision in place and have all others abide by my wishes? Who gets to decide? Let nature decide for herself. It is arrogance and selfishness that destroy the trail. It is arrogance and selfishness that will destroy our planet. Do your part, as I will do mine, and set an example for others.

On the one hand, you advocate "If you want fewer people on the trail give them more places to go." But just who/what/how do you "give them more places to go" in light of your statement: "More government, more regulations will do more harm than good - history has proven that.

So if it's not the government that creates more places to go e.g. woods, trails, pseudo-wilderness etc than who? Disney? There's always land trusts but even the largest of them e.g. Nature Conservancy don't have the resources to acquire large tracts.

With respect to the AT and its history and for that matter, recreational lands in general, I disagree that "history has proven" that government has done more harm than good - I think the opposite. National Parks have been called by many America's greatest gift to the world. I'm in the middle of reading a biography of John Muir which relates among other things the history of how national parks and subsequently national forests were established. It took committed conservationists - some of whom BTW were business magnates - to persuade Congress that the only adequate protection of such national treasures as Yosemite, Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Sequoia as well as the only way of preventing all of the nation's forests from total depletion was Federal protection. Then as now, there were interests fiercely opposed to such protections but fortunately for us today enjoying the benefits, the conservationists won out (although some individual battles were still lost).

The AT has benefited tremendously from the Trails Acts of 1968 and 1978. I often say that if these statutes weren't passed, a quarter or more of the AT would be roadwalks. But going further, if not for the Weeks Act (establishing National Forests in the East) and other early 20th and late 19th Century laws and the movements behind them, there's no way the AT would even exist today.

[Pommes]

Why don't we just pave the damn trail (http://pavetheappalachiantrail.org/) already

You got me. I was raging. As a matter of fact i'm still pissed. Cuz i can see that crap happening.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1104293#post1104293)
Why don't we just pave the damn trail (http://pavetheappalachiantrail.org/) already

While we're at let's be sure top lobby for street lights all the way....a Subway at least every 7 or 8 miles (or some similar fast food place) and a nice Steak House at least every 40 miles. And let's not forget a Holiday Inn Express every hundred miles..Nawww..now...just kiddin..let's keep it as natural and wild as possible....

[Wil]

Please, please think about it first.

Senators and Representatives get letters from only a tiny fraction of their constituents. There is the potential therefore for each individual letter to have an inordinate impact. For example, if a House member's staffer read a total of three letters mentioning the AT over a year's time and two of them proposed some specific nonsense, it is possible the staffer might casually say to his boss "Hey, you know our constituents are quite riled up about this Appalachian Trail thing, and about 2/3 of them want us to shut it down!"

So a funding issue or something comes up and this guy has the wrong mindset going in.

Please, if you are uninformed and shooting from the hip, don't waste the government's time and create a wrong and potentially damaging impression of the hiker community.

Sure, post your crap all over the internet, that's good clean fun. But don't take the chance (however remote) of doing some real legislative/regulatory damage.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

:welcome
3: Every 5rd year, close the entire trail for 2 years to all traffic both day and thru hikers, to allow nature to recover itself. This will also allow major repairs to the trails to take place, shelters, water, etc.
:banana

Are you suggesting to close the town of Hot Springs, NC every "5rd" year,or do you mean every "3fth) year?LOLOLOL.... How do you close a town for 2 years? For 7 tenths of a mile the AT is Main Street of Hot Springs, NC. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will..lol..), but I believe the AT also runs right through Damascus, VA. So I guess we just close Damscus, VA every "5rd" lol..year too... Lone Wolf should have something to say about this since he lives there....It would be my guess that a number of other towns would have to close for 2 years also...
Let's see your congressmen pull that one off..lol..
Since the AT runs no where near Wisconsin..what interest or jurisdiction would the Wisconsin Legislature have in this? :rolleyes:

[Sly]

I really would not be surprised if that happened. They paved the south rim of the Grand Canyon...

That's like saying they paved the AT through Hot Springs. Get out of the tourist area and you'll leave the pavement.

[hikerboy57]

well if theyre going to pave it, at least give us water fountains every few miles as well(sic)

[LoneRidgeRunner]

Please, please think about it first.

Senators and Representatives get letters from only a tiny fraction of their constituents. There is the potential therefore for each individual letter to have an inordinate impact. For example, if a House member's staffer read a total of three letters mentioning the AT over a year's time and two of them proposed some specific nonsense, it is possible the staffer might casually say to his boss "Hey, you know our constituents are quite riled up about this Appalachian Trail thing, and about 2/3 of them want us to shut it down!"

So a funding issue or something comes up and this guy has the wrong mindset going in.

Please, if you are uninformed and shooting from the hip, don't waste the government's time and create a wrong and potentially damaging impression of the hiker community.

Sure, post your crap all over the internet, that's good clean fun. But don't take the chance (however remote) of doing some real legislative/regulatory damage.

Wil, if you're pleading with WisconsinHiker2011 to not make his suggestions to his Congressional representatives....if you read his post carefully you will see that he says he has ALREADY done that.
THEN and ONLY then he asks the members here what we think about it...
You're right though....Congressmen are likely do do anything totally absurd and totally misinformed (especially near an election year) to try and gain a few votes by kissing butts of the voters... so every one really does need to be careful what they suggest to the idiots. (Congress) This is totally unrelated but in the mid 80's I think when the USA was in an economic crises very similar to our current situation they sat there in Washington and voted themselves an $86,000.00 per year pay raise so that shows how concerned they are about the welfare of our country and how senseless they are also.

[Tilly]

We go to the woods to escape humanity. If you want fewer people on the trail give them more places to go. Reroute the trail around GSMNP where there is the most traffic (oh yeah can't - no place to put it). More government, more regulations will do more harm than good - history has proven that. Leave the woods as they are and allow those who wish to go there the opportunity to do so and to enjoy them the way that is best for them. Why should I be limited by your vision? Or can I put my vision in place and have all others abide by my wishes? Who gets to decide? Let nature decide for herself. It is arrogance and selfishness that destroy the trail. It is arrogance and selfishness that will destroy our planet. Do your part, as I will do mine, and set an example for others.

Umm...sorry, but what do you think the AT is? Not a National Scenic Trail, hmm? That goes thru the Smokies and Shenandoah...which are National Parks...or the Priest WILDERNESS AREA (and others) that was set aside by the GOVERNMENT!?!?!

This is just kind of ignorant. W/out the ol' government, there would be no AT. I mean they passed legislation just to create the National Scenic Trails!!!

Also, if there are too many people on the trail for you, there are hundereds of square miles of (government set-aside) National Forest that are 100% free for you to wander around in.

[4eyedbuzzard]

well if theyre going to pave it, at least give us water fountains every few miles as well(sic)
Good point. Water lines can be run in the same trench as the electrical and fiber optic conduits.

[fehchet]

And a park bench every mile or so.

[Roland]

...and closing a section will be easy. Just shut down the people mover.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

A massage parlor every 15 to 20 miles to rejuvenate those tired old aching muscles..

[sheepdog]

and water fountains every half mile or so

[M1 Thumb]

If the original poster was serious in his beliefs and convictions, he would cancel his planned 2012 AT thru hike (to do his part in minimizing human impact of the AT) and write a check for $250 to the ATC (to simulate his proposed idea of an AT Trail fee). What I hear is someone complaining about the price of gas as he fills up his Hummer.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

If the original poster was serious in his beliefs and convictions, he would cancel his planned 2012 AT thru hike (to do his part in minimizing human impact of the AT) and write a check for $250 to the ATC (to simulate his proposed idea of an AT Trail fee). What I hear is someone complaining about the price of gas as he fills up his Hummer.

EXACTLY Thumb!
And if he's dead set against hiking a worn out trail (or however he put it) He should go somewhere in the Rockies away from state and national parks, away from marked and public trails to a true wilderness area and just strike out cross country with just a topo map or 2, a compass and maybe a GPS (wonder if he can use either of the aforementioned?) with not a sign of a trail and then maybe he would appreciate that worn out AT when the rescue squads have to come find his rear end and chopper him out of there. I've spent nearly as much time off trails just bush wacking as I have on worn out trails so why can't he? I'm just an old man...lol..He's young and knows every thing..lol..

[Bucherm]

and water fountains every half mile or so

Gotta make sure they are chilled, the Southern Appalachians get warm in the summer.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

Gotta make sure they are chilled, the Southern Appalachians get warm in the summer.

By all means..either chilled fountains or have bags of ice and frosted mugs to drink it from...

[mcskinney]

They often carry what they will, and when it proves to be too much, they toss trash and other items alongside the trail or leave it at shelters.

This reminded me of Katz in 'a walk in the woods'... I know everyone hates that book, I hated Katz, and was disappointed in the ending but anyway im off topic.

When reading that book and the earlier parts where he was just throwing things out of his pack because it weighed too much I was thinking to myself. these two morons have no right, are so unprepared. then I remembered a backpacking trip when i was 16 or so, my 1st and when i left a cache of canned food under a log because it was to heavy to carry.... I never went back for it. I am Katz... or was anyway once when I was 16.


Katz was a thruhiker. I agree with you though, there are what like <3000 thruhike attempts each year and probably millions of park visits in that same time frame from dayhikers to drunks teens to first time backpackers throwing cans in the woods. It happens. Here in Colorado we find old mining equipment and old rusted out cans and antique glass bottles sometimes miles from anywhere, remnants of a lost mining camp or hunting party long ago. People will always leave a mark, but in actuality that mark doesnt really matter to the land itself. LNT principles wouldn't even matter if there weren't so many people. But anyway there are so many people, so LNT. I forgot what i was trying to convey but I think it was something like, im sure 99% of the damage isnt from thruhikers but that doesnt mean thruhikers dont damage things.

also, I've never even seen the AT or been in a state the AT passes through so what do I know

[mcskinney]

Katz was a thruhiker.




or trying not to hard to be one anyway.

I know he wasn't a "thruhiker" cuz he was a fat fictional quiter, just sayin.

[restless]

Remember..Todays trash is tomorrows historical artifacts!:D

[LoneRidgeRunner]

[QUOTE Mckensey (sorry if I mis spelled it) I agree with you though, there are what like <3000 thruhike attempts each year and probably millions of park visits in that same time frame from dayhikers to drunks teens to first time backpackers throwing cans in the woods. It happens. Here in Colorado we find old mining equipment and old rusted out cans and antique glass bottles sometimes miles from anywhere, remnants of a lost mining camp or hunting party long ago. People will always leave a mark, but in actuality that mark doesnt really matter to the land itself. LNT principles wouldn't even matter if there weren't so many people. But anyway there are so many people, so LNT. I forgot what i was trying to convey but I think it was something like, im sure 99% of the damage isnt from thruhikers but that doesnt mean thruhikers dont damage things.

also, I've never even seen the AT or been in a state the AT passes through so what do I know[/QUOTE]

You don't have to have ever seen the AT or been in a state that passes through to have an opinion on people trashing the outdoors. I, for one, agree with what you are saying..

[Graywolf]

Ah Right.. everyone, here is the factor...Pave the AT, build Hiker condos ath all the shelters with their own manicured lawns and caretakers, put solar panels on Blood Mountain along with wind turbines..Lets make a ten lane freeway thaough the Smokies called the Appalachian Trail Parkway so DOT can keep up with the upkeep..

Lets also mow down all the Forests, put up gated communties in Virgina, place Chain Link fence barriers with barbwire along the top in Nwe Jersey and New York.. Lets make sure that all the AT in MD and Pennsylvania is Paved so not to deal with all the rocks..Blast gorges in the Whites so as to make the climbs easier And turn the 100 Mile Wilderness into a stretch of Mini Malls so as make it an easy hike..And whlie we are at it, lets blow up Katahdin as to make it easier to reach the summit. All in All once that is done, and the beauti of the AT is diminished, then we can rest assure the AT will be ok cause there will be no one to hike it...And while we are at it, please reserve me some Ocean Front property in Arziona.. Im gonna need a place to rest my tired feet...

[Bearpaw]

Remember..Todays trash is tomorrows historical artifacts!:D

Depends. In Mammoth Cave, roof writing before 1940 is historical documentation. After 1940, it's a federal offense.

[Wise Old Owl]

Please do not think that all people from Wisconsin are like this.


Like what? Thought provoking and challenging our deep rooted belief systems? I don't see anything wrong with that.


Too late.


For sale - Custom fitted Faraday suits guaranteed to block all electrical signals emanating from probes placed within the body by any and all government agencies. (Note - I do not guarantee effectiveness against devices implanted from extraterrestrial sources)

Order now and I will throw in a free foil beenie that shields against all known mind control and thought reading devices.

Foil Beenie Not required - You need to see a Wisconsin Football Game.... Notice the dopey look on dad...

http://www.cheeseforum.org/Images%20-%20Website/Wisconsin%20Cheese%20Heads.jpg

[Wise Old Owl]

Ted Nugent's on tonite at 8PM on Fox with huckabee

LW that was the best, I hear they will both play Dueling Banjo's at the end of the show!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8

[mweinstone]

nuget. what a weirdo. an ozy for every child. tigerburgers. and the pants. ha! nuget. lwolf. you are a ding bat.oxoxomatty.

[LIhikers]

I'll give you credit for thinking about issues, but that's where I draw the line.
First of all, the trail goes through a lot of land that isn't under the control of the feral government.
Second, people start a thru hike from so many diffeent places along the trail that you couldn't organize a "controled" release.
There's more places to get on and off the trail than you can count.
And maybe most important, I think most of the volunteers that maintain the trail would give up if it came to doing things your way, at least I would. I volunteer my time and effort so that the trail is accessible for whoever wants to enjoy it.
As for thinking 50 to 100 years out, let the folks who are here then worry about that time frame.

[Cookerhiker]

Remember..Todays trash is tomorrows historical artifacts!:D

Does that include Hiker Trash?

[restless]

First of all, the trail goes through a lot of land that isn't under the control of the feral government.


Actually, 99% of the trail is on federal lands now.

[restless]

Actually, 99% of the trail is on federal lands now.

That should have read "public lands" Protected nonetheless, and the NPS is the primary land manager for the AT.

[Wise Old Owl]

nuget. what a weirdo. an ozy for every child. tigerburgers. and the pants. ha! nuget. lwolf. you are a ding bat.oxoxomatty.

out of respect removed anyway.......................

[Cookerhiker]

Umm...sorry, but what do you think the AT is? Not a National Scenic Trail, hmm? That goes thru the Smokies and Shenandoah...which are National Parks...or the Priest WILDERNESS AREA (and others) that was set aside by the GOVERNMENT!?!?!

This is just kind of ignorant. W/out the ol' government, there would be no AT. I mean they passed legislation just to create the National Scenic Trails!!!

Agree! see my Post #`123.


Also, if there are too many people on the trail for you, there are hundereds of square miles of (government set-aside) National Forest that are 100% free for you to wander around in.

Perhaps the OP isn't aware that even in the crowded East, there are hundreds of miles of trails in the Nat. Forests where one can hike in solitude. And when the Great Eastern Trail is completed, hikers have a long-distance Eastern alternative to the AT. The GET may not pass over the highest mountains e.g. Smokies, Whites but it will provide a more wilderness-like experience.

[Bearpaw]

Matty unless I am wrong, I was pointing out LW had made a great joke, I found it very funny... 0x0x0 means Love & Kisses... did you mean to do that? if not edit your post & I will delete mine.

I'm pretty sure he meant the xoxoxoxoxo's in a joking way. ;)

[mweinstone]

i love and respect tedski. and yes lwolf and i have been intamite. and max shot my mossy when he was 9. and my 1911 when he was 10. i also belive every child needs a ted nuget stayle dad. not the pants. gave max a kabar for his 21st. the tonno topped mini. oh, and yes, oxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxooox all for wolf. cause i love him and gypsy and would give wolf my heart if we had to share it and then we would have to walk real close witch would be annoying but for wolf i would share my heart.

[swjohnsey]

i love and respect tedski. and yes lwolf and i have been intamite. and max shot my mossy when he was 9. and my 1911 when he was 10. i also belive every child needs a ted nuget stayle dad. not the pants. gave max a kabar for his 21st. the tonno topped mini. oh, and yes, oxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxooox all for wolf. cause i love him and gypsy and would give wolf my heart if we had to share it and then we would have to walk real close witch would be annoying but for wolf i would share my heart.


You mean like a poseur who chit himself to keep from gettin' drafted.

[Sly]

You mean like a poseur who chit himself to keep from gettin' drafted.

Yup, TN draft dodger & chickenhawk.

[mweinstone]

meh. ive respected worse. lol. didnt know.

[fiddlehead]

I'll give you credit for thinking about issues, but that's where I draw the line.
.

Wow, 8 pages of posts while i slept.
The guy does have a point. (OP that is)
Permits will happen (just like Whitney, JMT, National Parks), if the trail continues to get popular.
How will they offer permits? Waiting list? Lottery? Money paid?
As to who will enforce? You all should know by now that they will have CC TV cameras in another 15 years, let alone 50.

So, before you come down so hard on the OP, give him credit for thinking outside of the sheep pen.

It may be a problem and you will have websites (perhaps as popular as this one) to discuss getting a permit.

Anyone here ever run their own trip down the Grand Canyon?
It took me 9 years on the waiting list.
And yes, it was worth it.

Now, they've changed it to a lottery.

[swjohnsey]

Wow, 8 pages of posts while i slept.
The guy does have a point. (OP that is)
Permits will happen (just like Whitney, JMT, National Parks), if the trail continues to get popular.
How will they offer permits? Waiting list? Lottery? Money paid?
As to who will enforce? You all should know by now that they will have CC TV cameras in another 15 years, let alone 50.

So, before you come down so hard on the OP, give him credit for thinking outside of the sheep pen.

It may be a problem and you will have websites (perhaps as popular as this one) to discuss getting a permit.

Anyone here ever run their own trip down the Grand Canyon?
It took me 9 years on the waiting list.
And yes, it was worth it.

Now, they've changed it to a lottery.

Grand Canyon is a good example, though there is little enforcement. Backcountry permits for camping in the canyon are hard to come by but don't cost much. Mostly you have to know how the system works and think a little in advance. Most folks won't do anything they have to plan for six months in advance.

[Bearpaw]

Wow, 8 pages of posts while i slept.
The guy does have a point. (OP that is)
Permits will happen (just like Whitney, JMT, National Parks), if the trail continues to get popular.
How will they offer permits? Waiting list? Lottery? Money paid?
As to who will enforce? You all should know by now that they will have CC TV cameras in another 15 years, let alone 50.

So, before you come down so hard on the OP, give him credit for thinking outside of the sheep pen.

It may be a problem and you will have websites (perhaps as popular as this one) to discuss getting a permit.

Anyone here ever run their own trip down the Grand Canyon?
It took me 9 years on the waiting list.
And yes, it was worth it.

Now, they've changed it to a lottery.


Poor analogy. The JMT starts and ends in national parks. Relatively easy to regulate. The AT does neither, starting in a national forest and state park. It would take tremendous effort to regulate it all, great (and wasted) expense, and to relatively little purpose. And the AT would be dramatically poorer for it, with fewer people hiking and therefore fewer people inclined to work to protect it.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

Hello everyone!

I was planning to respond to the first two pages of this thread, but what do I find when I come back? Over 8 pages of discussion! :clap

I need some time to write a response to everyone, and I mean everyone.

I have a question though, would you all prefer to have a response in one huge post by myself, or individual posts directed at specific fellow members?

- Mike

P.S. I am going to say this once and once only - I will NOT react or respond to personal attacks, unfounded negativity, and general attacks towards myself. I care only about the trail in the really long term - 50, 100, 200 years out. So to those who just post attacks, your wasting your time. Myron Avery was disliked by many as well, but his devotion to the trail was never put in question. I find it vulgar that people question mine.

[SwitchbackVT]

WisconsinHiker2011,

Let it go. Your entire argument is based on a few pictures you've seen. That vast majority of the trail is devoid of garbage and negative human contact. If you had spent any time on the trail, you would know that. Hike the trail. Experience all the great things it has to offer, meet great people, and allow it to change your life. Then you can express your opinions, once you have some sort of basis. Until then, you have no right to pass judgement. If you feel the need to save the world, act locally.

[Sly]

Myron Avery was disliked by many as well, but his devotion to the trail was never put in question. I find it vulgar that people question mine.

I've met Myron Avery, and you sir, are no Myron Avery. :p

[Sly]

meh.

meh? u r sew hip.

[endubyu]

Wow you ppl crack me up - I didnt write that the government does no good what so ever - I wrote that in comparison it does more harm and didn't specify trails - my bad. Also was responding to the point of the thread and that MORE would be worse. I do have a habit of excluding too much information. Guess I just expect yall to read my mind for the rest :)

[SassyWindsor]

Trail Maintenance Clubs do one heck of a job and I give thanks. I'm not a fan of shelters and it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they all got torn down allowing more maintenance time for just the tail. I sometimes wonder if shelters take priority over other trail maintenance issues. Trail traffic might ever be slowed by shelter removal (speculation). There are many long trails without a shelter system and they seem to do fine, no reason the AT wouldn't either. Regardless, I'm not holding my breath.:)

[jlo]

Dude...you seriously need to hike it, then make suggestions.

I'm haven't done a thru, but I live in VA and have day/weekend hike the AT in the Shennandoah National Park for years. I don't know the exact stats, but I'm pretty sure that the SNP is the most used section of the AT and it is in great shape thanks to volunteers and trail maintenance folks. There are tons of people, but you are still lost in the woods with the bears and deer when you hike it.

And as far as charging money....one of the most wonderful things about the AT is that it is free to everyone.

[SassyWindsor]

Strategically placed, secure parking lots, would be an item I'd be willing to pay for. I know this would be tough to do, but I like the idea.

[Cookerhiker]

...I'm haven't done a thru, but I live in VA and have day/weekend hike the AT in the Shennandoah National Park for years. I don't know the exact stats, but I'm pretty sure that the SNP is the most used section of the AT and it is in great shape thanks to volunteers and trail maintenance folks. There are tons of people, but you are still lost in the woods with the bears and deer when you hike it.....

Having hiked a lot in SNP myself, I agree.

While SNP may not be the most used part of the AT (think Smokies, White Mountains, Bear Mountain), it likely receives more hiker traffic than most other parts of the Trail.

[restless]

Wisconsin--
Thanks for at least getting everyone on this site to think about these issues. While at some times, the posts have devolved in to personal attacks, I think that there has been some productive dialogue as a result of your OP. Your observation, limited as it appears to be, has validity. That negative human impact exists is, I believe, indisputable. It is more obvious in some areas when compared to others and some trail clubs appear to do a better job of managing the evidence of human impact than others. jlo mentioned the Shenandoah NP in particular, and PATC does a great job of keeping their section of trail through SNP in great shape. There are other high use areas that I have mentioned before that the impact is much more obvious and for one reason or another, continue to go unresolved. Some of the maintaining clubs are actively involved in rerouting problem sections of the trail. Bob Peoples and the Tennessee Eastman Hiking and Canoe Club have done a wonderful job at making their section of trail much more sustainable. But even some of those reroutes are showing signs of overuse; the trail from Carvers Gap to Jane Bald, which was accomplished as the result of hikers during Hardcore several years ago, is beginning to show signs of negative impact. There are other places along the AT that the trail could be more sustainable but due to budget, manpower, or overall priority, the existing trail is left in place. The AT is a long trail and there simply is not enough manpower to fix every problem.
So far as garbage goes, yes it is a problem that is more obvious in some places more than others. In Ga, GSMNP, Mt. Rogers, SNP and at pretty much every road crossing, trash becomes much more of a problem. I do not believe that thru-hikers are the main culprits, although there are some that are guilty. Day hikers seem to have much less of a Leave No Trace ethic, and the local yahoo's just don't seem to give a rip and trailheads become gathering spots to drink beer. I have seen much worse places than what the AT suffers in terms of amount of trash. A vast majority of the trail users seem to bend over backwards to keep "their" trail clean. AT users, especially some of the people on this site, take a personal ownership in the trail insofar as keeping it clean. Do we get everything? No, that would be impossible. Will we ever be able to stop trash along the trail? Once again, no. Until every person is educated about LNT principles and adheres by them, trash will be visible.
So what is the solution? Do we limit the number of people permitted to hike the trail? Do we limit access? Do we charge a user fee or implement a permit system? Do we "close the trail" at scheduled intervals to permit the land to recover? Each one of these solutions has been implemented in various places at various times; sometimes with great success, other times with outspoken protest from the trail community. Could any of these things occur along the AT in the far distant future? I think everyone on here would agree that nothing of the sort could or would occur in the short term. I don't even believe that the impact problem at this stage of the game warrants anything of that nature. Just the costs to the government, not to mention the logistical nightmare that would exist as a result of implementing some of those controls would make them unfeasible. The AT stands as a shining example of the power of volunteers and the ability to bring an idea to fruition when they work together. What about the future? When Benton MacKaye first envisioned an Appalachian Trail, we were the future. I don't think he ever imagined that it would become as popular as it has. But the point is, it has survived all these years. It's biggest challenge was during WWII when it suffered from lack of use and maintenance and almost disappeared.
In summary, yes there is negative human impact to be found along the trail. It is not a systemic problem but rather localized. Problems are being addressed, albeit slowly. Maintaining clubs need our help. When all is said and done, the grandeur of the AT is what most people remember. Not the impact done by getting there.

[Dances with Mice]

Worst thing that could happen to the Trail is underuse. When nobody cares about it it will be developed into resorts, condos and timeshares. It won't fade away, it'll be scraped away by bulldozers.

Foot traffic and primitive camping overuse isn't and will never be a threat to the Trail.

[Pedaling Fool]

Worst thing that could happen to the Trail is underuse. When nobody cares about it it will be developed into resorts, condos and timeshares. It won't fade away, it'll be scraped away by bulldozers.

Foot traffic and primitive camping overuse isn't and will never be a threat to the Trail.
Excellent point!

[TallShark]

^sassy windsor, oh really? concrete's slowly creepin’ and I can’t stand it. I can't wrap my head around some of these ideas, people are getting so far away from the core meaning of getting out and experiencing the great outdoors.

[Hooch]

Just curious why this thread hasn't been moved to the humor section yet. :rolleyes::D

[restless]

Just curious why this thread hasn't been moved to the humor section yet. :rolleyes::D

Regardless of one's personal opinions, there is nothing humorous about human impact on the trail, AT or otherwise.

[Wise Old Owl]

Because it's just not that funny, its naive, and the trail maintainers do an excellent job.

[TallShark]

^Oh and one more thing to perpetuate the argument, seeing as i dont have anything constructive to say, Im staying the heck out of wisconsin. Have no desire to go there and if this is how the people think I'm cool with that. I feel fortunate that I can see the forrest from the trees, some people just dont get it. Why would you feel like an outside entity needs to control something we are completely able to control ourselves. We are, after all, competent adults right. And for the ones of us who aren't there is always education from our peers, not a regulatory federal agency put into place to get there grubby hands all over something that they have no right being in. I feel like me and my generation can handle ourselves and maintain something that we are all passionate about, I dont need some a-hole telling me when and how i need to do it.

[TallShark]

[QUOTE=TallShark;1104829]forrestQUOTE]:eek:

forest..... sorry

[Tilly]

^Oh and one more thing to perpetuate the argument, seeing as i dont have anything constructive to say, Im staying the heck out of wisconsin. Have no desire to go there and if this is how the people think I'm cool with that. I feel fortunate that I can see the forrest from the trees, some people just dont get it. Why would you feel like an outside entity needs to control something we are completely able to control ourselves. We are, after all, competent adults right. And for the ones of us who aren't there is always education from our peers, not a regulatory federal agency put into place to get there grubby hands all over something that they have no right being in. I feel like me and my generation can handle ourselves and maintain something that we are all passionate about, I dont need some a-hole telling me when and how i need to do it.

#1) Calm down. Over-generalizing doesn't accomplish anything. Are all people in Georgia identical to you, and think exactily as you do?

#2) Again, the AT is protected by our own federal government (and some state gov't, too, where the trail is on state land). W/out the gov't being involved in trail development and protection...there would be very little trail. In a way the gov't has business in our National Scenic Trails. Just the way it is.

_________

On another tangent, the worst thing a trail could get is underuse, as others have said.

[Tilly]

Something to compare this to would be the Ice Age NST, which is located in WI. Wouldn't it be great if annually there were thousands of thru/section/weekend hikers utilizing this 1,000+ mile trail?

The amount of support would be tremendous. Towns along the trail would reap economic benefit. The trailbed would benefit from all the travel. There would be so many who would want to give their time to the trail, in whatever capacity. People would make donations. People would want their government to put as many protections in place as possible. The best thing for trails is for people to hike them!

Really, the trashiest most degraded trails I have ever hiked have been horse trails. Land Between the Lakes, for example--horseback riders just throw their trash everywhere. Where the horses aren't allowed, trail conditions improve and the trash disappears (and piles of horse manure.)

[4eyedbuzzard]

Really, the trashiest most degraded trails I have ever hiked have been horse trails. Land Between the Lakes, for example--horseback riders just throw their trash everywhere. Where the horses aren't allowed, trail conditions improve and the trash disappears (and piles of horse manure.)

Seems that LNT cathole stuff only applies to human poop, not horse poop, even though they're not forest critters and are brought there by humans. Interesting.

Commenting sarcastically, not trolling...

[Lilred]

Seems that LNT cathole stuff only applies to human poop, not horse poop, even though they're not forest critters and are brought there by humans. Interesting.

Commenting sarcastically, not trolling...

No, they don't dig catholes for horses, that would be silly. They just let the horses poop in the drinking water. At least that was how it was at one shelter I stopped at in the Smokies. The water source was filled with horse poop. :mad: If you want to improve the AT through the Smokies anyhow, get rid of the horses!! Write your legislators about that Mr. Wisconson....

[Sly]

After hiking the PCT, I got a real distaste for horses on the trail, mostly commercial outfitters. Part of my solution? Horsey diapers.




No, they don't dig catholes for horses, that would be silly. They just let the horses poop in the drinking water. At least that was how it was at one shelter I stopped at in the Smokies. The water source was filled with horse poop. :mad: If you want to improve the AT through the Smokies anyhow, get rid of the horses!! Write your legislators about that Mr. Wisconson....

[Cookerhiker]

No, they don't dig catholes for horses, that would be silly. They just let the horses poop in the drinking water. At least that was how it was at one shelter I stopped at in the Smokies. The water source was filled with horse poop. :mad: If you want to improve the AT through the Smokies anyhow, get rid of the horses!! Write your legislators about that Mr. Wisconson....

That's pretty revolting.

We hikers over the decades have made, appropriately, many changes in our habits compared to a century ago with LNT (however maligned and nitpicked): we don't cut trees for firewood or making shelter, we're conscious about keeping water sources pure, we try to stay in existing campsites rather than breaking new ground in areas of heavy use, we respect the trails by not cutting across switchbacks - in short, we don't camp like Daniel Boone used to; if we did, the forest at least in popular areas e.g. Smokies would be in much worse shape.

What adjustments have horse riders done over the years to minimize their impacts? And what Park Service rules are in place governing horses?

A friend is a former Park Ranger at another National Park suffering from horse damage. About 10 years ago, a new superintendent arrived who was pro-horse and he started allowing them in. Now a constituency has developed such that his successors can't get rid of them without a lot of flack.

[Roots]

The Smokies was definitely interesting to hike through. I really enjoyed slogging through mud from where the wet ground was plowed up from horses. OOoo...and the piles of horse crap everywhere made for a beautiful aroma in the morning hikes.:rolleyes: Actually the worst is when there are signs of horse being on a trail they aren't suppose to be on. :mad:

[Bearpaw]

In the 1980's and 90's, I was glad horses were allowed on the trails in Mammoth Cave National Park. There was so little hiker traffic that the occasional horse was the only thing that kept the trails clear.

Sometime in the early 2000's, three commercial outfitters began renting horses out for dayriders. The trails have suffered horribly.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/bearpawat99/Mammoth%20Cave%20Oct%2009/010a.jpg

The scene above is standard within 50 yards of so a pretty much all streams. On the harder-packed trails/old roadbeds, horse traffic can be so intense, a hiker can only manage maybe 1.5 miles per hour because they spend so much time on the side waiting for riders to pass.

Horse riders have a place and a right to trails too, but there has to be some sort of balance. If a trail is not specifically constructed for them, they can destroy it pretty quickly.

[Graywolf]

As I am not opposed to "Share the Trail" i.e. Horses, I do see the impact they do make. It really made me laugh once a few years ago when I read and article in a local newspaper that horses make less impact on trails then hikers. We all know that is a crock of manure, but it just goes to show, some ativities on trails needs to be lessened and controlled more than hikiers, in this case, horses..

But what can I say I live in a Pro Horse, Anti-Hike state..:(

[Luddite]

The NPS should at least make them use manure catchers. I think they should be ticketed for leaving horse crap on the trail.

[Graywolf]

Here is a good read. Even though it only scratches the surface, it discusses the impacts of Hikers, horses and bikes on the Trails. The book it mentions, I would like to get my hands on it..

www.americantrails.org/resources/ManageMaintain/WKeenImpacts.html (http://www.americantrails.org/resources/ManageMaintain/WKeenImpacts.html)

Graywolf

[Wise Old Owl]

As I am not opposed to "Share the Trail" i.e. Horses, I do see the impact they do make. It really made me laugh once a few years ago when I read and article in a local newspaper that horses make less impact on trails then hikers. We all know that is a crock of manure, but it just goes to show, some ativities on trails needs to be lessened and controlled more than hikiers, in this case, horses..

But what can I say I live in a Pro Horse, Anti-Hike state..:(

I am not sure GW, I am in the middle of a horse community and when they are being exercised around the general area, they cut a small 10 inch path that ribbons next to the road, Only due to riders doing a single file... I would say forestry jeeps and quads are the worst.

[Graywolf]

I am not sure GW, I am in the middle of a horse community and when they are being exercised around the general area, they cut a small 10 inch path that ribbons next to the road, Only due to riders doing a single file... I would say forestry jeeps and quads are the worst.

Your right there.. Those four wheelers can really tear up a trail in a moments flat.. Look at some of the National Forests that allow quads on the paths.. I wouldnt step a foot on them in fear of twisting an ankle.

I merely posted the article in relation to Horses and Hikers impacts..But you are so right, Wise Owl..

One thing that I do agree that must happen is in areas where trails are mutli-use, the different trail organizations i.e. hiker, biker, equestrain, should work together to help minimize the effect. I agree there should be a big strain on the horse issue as to several of the posts read here, i.e. manure, on the Trail. One example:

One of my favorite places to backpack here in Texas is Caprock Canyons State Park. However, the only blace to camp over night is also shred by horses, and I cannot no longer sleep in that area because of the smell..Its bad..

I think all this comes down to not only a Federal, State, or Local level but also to the level of the very people who utilize the trails. My thumbs are up to the many members here on WB that has became involved in the Hiker community to work on these issues. We need more of you..I try to be invloved here in Texas as well. It all comes down to eductaing the public and our Senators on whats going on. I once, not long ago, attnended a meeting with a local Equestrain group here in the DFW area that utilizes a local hiking trail, and the comments were welcome from both sides.

We as hikers, bikers, and those who ride, have to work together to see things done..Its a 4 four way street in my opinion..

Graywolf

[restless]

As a trail builder, I must admit that I loathe horse use on the trail. However, and for whatever reasons, they seem to have deep pockets and there would be considerable uproar i they were banned from trails, Not to mention a cut in recreational funding. Horse users for the most part are not interested in LNT principles-some are but not all. I must say though that horses do have their benefits. In the Smokies, they have been invaluable in getting the trails cleared after winter. But I still ask myself if the benefits they provide, is worth the damage done.

[Graywolf]

Here is a study done a few years ago on the AT. As we discussed here on this topic and many issues were brought up concerning the impact of Day hikers vs. the impact of Thru-hikers, in this study, day hikers scored lower and Thru-Hikers scored the highest..

www.wilderness.net/library/documents/aug03_newman.pdf (http://www.wilderness.net/library/documents/aug03_newman.pdf)

Graywolf

[Wise Old Owl]

Aside from what we talked about by PM - could you imagine all your gear and tools hauled by horse? It would be easier to get to the damage spend more time fixing and ride back in relative comfort... Besides when it was a govt trail, folk rode from Philadelphia to the AT on horse, its called the Horseshoe trail.

[Graywolf]

Aside from what we talked about by PM - could you imagine all your gear and tools hauled by horse? It would be easier to get to the damage spend more time fixing and ride back in relative comfort... Besides when it was a govt trail, folk rode from Philadelphia to the AT on horse, its called the Horseshoe trail.

LOL...Hmmm...Ok, I'll leave this one alone...;)

[Graywolf]

Actually, I find this thread one of the best threads on Trail Issues in a long time..I thank the OP for bringing it up. As one reply had to say, it got many of us to think about the issue. Even though I dont agree with some of his points and he does need to get out and hike a little before make assumptions, he did bring up some valid issues..

There are many issues here. When I see the pictures of the Smokies now, prior to how they were, say, in the 80's, it saddens me, but these effects are not by hikers, its by pollutions and little beatles (forget the name). The Smokies are actually Smoked out by the many cars that come thru there. Maybe transfering the National Park Designation, into a "Wilderness" would help some. I dont know. But its something. It he;ps minimze the pollution impact AND will help minimize the impact from day hikers..But then, being between two tourist traps, i.e. Gatlynburg and Cherokee, I really dont see this happening, even though it could be a consideration..

I like this thread and hope we can be engaged in it a little longer as there are many many issues that should be addressed and discussed, from a hikers stand point..

Wish we had some ATC personal here to comment on some of this..Would be interesting..

[FatMan]

The answer is Toll Booths;):banana;):banana

DWM's point about under use being more harmful to the AT than over use is spot on.

And for those who think thru-hikers are less abusive than section and day hikers I disagree. The area of trail I hike here is GA is trashed during thru-hiker season. Yet remains pretty much un-trashed the remainder of the year.

[LoneRidgeRunner]

Here is a study done a few years ago on the AT. As we discussed here on this topic and many issues were brought up concerning the impact of Day hikers vs. the impact of Thru-hikers, in this study, day hikers scored lower and Thru-Hikers scored the highest..

www.wilderness.net/library/documents/aug03_newman.pdf (http://www.wilderness.net/library/documents/aug03_newman.pdf)

Graywolf

I just followed this link and EVERY one of the answers shown in Table 1 are INCORRECT, WRONG...any way you look at it! Seriously...I didn't even bother to look at the rest yet....Table 1 is a JOKE...

[Graywolf]

I just followed this link and EVERY one of the answers shown in Table 1 are INCORRECT, WRONG...any way you look at it! Seriously...I didn't even bother to look at the rest yet....Table 1 is a JOKE...

I just looked at some of the answers and you are right..

Sorry about that. I need to read it more throughly next time. Moderator you can delete that reply if you wish..

[Luddite]

I just followed this link and EVERY one of the answers shown in Table 1 are INCORRECT, WRONG...any way you look at it! Seriously...I didn't even bother to look at the rest yet....Table 1 is a JOKE...

The wrong answers are in bold.

[Luddite]

The wrong answers are in bold.

Actually, it says the correct answers are in bold. Its obviously a typo.

[Graywolf]

Actually, it says the correct answers are in bold. Its obviously a typo.

Yes , the correct answers are in bold. Its says right under Topic One. But we all know they are wrong.

I just sent Wilderness.net a message concerning that..

Thanks for pointing it out LoneRidgeRunner..

Graywolf

[Pedaling Fool]

Actually, it says the correct answers are in bold. Its obviously a typo.
Can't be a simple typo, it says it's Peer Reveiwed:D


Note: I'm not saying one way or the other because I'm just too lazy to read into it right now and probably never will.

[Luddite]

Can't be a simple typo, it says it's Peer Reveiwed:D


Note: I'm not saying one way or the other because I'm just too lazy to read into it right now and probably never will.

False Hikers should not collect plants and rocks along the Appalachian Trail

True If I wanted to ride my all-terrain vehicle on the AT, I could do so as long as I stay on the
trail.

[Graywolf]

Can't be a simple typo, it says it's Peer Reveiwed:D


Note: I'm not saying one way or the other because I'm just too lazy to read into it right now and probably never will.

I really apologize for posting this article and wished I read thru it closer.

Im beginning to wonder who the "peers" were? Must been the Day Hikers that rated low on the questionaire..

[LoneRidgeRunner]

Yes , the correct answers are in bold. Its says right under Topic One. But we all know they are wrong.

I just sent Wilderness.net a message concerning that..

Thanks for pointing it out LoneRidgeRunner..

Graywolf

No problem Graywolf...Hope you didn't think I meant any disrespect toward you as that was not my intention. I figured you knew the correct answers but just hadn't looked that closely.
I just didn't want some newbie to the hiking community seeing it and thinking it was correct.

[Pedaling Fool]

False Hikers should not collect plants and rocks along the Appalachian Trail

True If I wanted to ride my all-terrain vehicle on the AT, I could do so as long as I stay on the
trail.
You're missing my point. It's Peer Reviewed (so it says).

[LoneRidgeRunner]

You're missing my point. It's Peer Reviewed (so it says).

Those reviewing peers should stay off the trails for they know not what they do...:eek:

[Graywolf]

No problem Graywolf...Hope you didn't think I meant any disrespect toward you as that was not my intention. I figured you knew the correct answers but just hadn't looked that closely.
I just didn't want some newbie to the hiking community seeing it and thinking it was correct.

No disrespect here. sometimes we make mistakes.. Actually, now I think about it, these "answers" could be a fine example of how we need more effiecient Wilderness Education..Which we do need..

Just a thought. With the large amount of Thrus starting in March, wouldnt it be beneficial to hold a "Hikers Education" class of some sort at Amicoloa, Springer, or even Mountain Crossings?. I know this maybe useless, but it is a thought. It couldn't hurt..

But then, I hope if your a Thruhiker. Just a thought. Thats all..

[Jim Adams]

This just shows how closed minded alot of hikers are! Everything that is stated in the first paragraph is pretty much what all of us offroad riders deal with all of the time. Why?...because hikers want the trails protected...... AS LONG AS IT IS NOT PROTECTED FROM THEMSELVES!!!!
What a bunch of hypocrits.

geek

[hikerboy57]

Maybe we should make this some sort of permanent posting, seeing that this is an issue that touches all of us. there arent any simple solutions, but an increased awareness of the issues by newbies and anyyone considering hiking the trail would certainly help. I find the most abusive people are also the most ignorant. LNT is a philosophy, not a law. We all DO have an impacton the trail, regardless of how careful we are.Better education is certainly part of the answer.

[Graywolf]

This just shows how closed minded alot of hikers are! Everything that is stated in the first paragraph is pretty much what all of us offroad riders deal with all of the time. Why?...because hikers want the trails protected...... AS LONG AS IT IS NOT PROTECTED FROM THEMSELVES!!!!
What a bunch of hypocrits.

geek

This kind of post is why WE ALL need to to work together to protect the trails..

Dont tell me hypocrits. I deal with off road riders all teh time. The ones I see only want to tear up the creeks and rivers..Such hypocrits..:D

[Graywolf]

This just shows how closed minded alot of hikers are! Everything that is stated in the first paragraph is pretty much what all of us offroad riders deal with all of the time. Why?...because hikers want the trails protected...... AS LONG AS IT IS NOT PROTECTED FROM THEMSELVES!!!!
What a bunch of hypocrits.

geek

Oh, by the way, that was sarcasum.. No hurt feeling...

[LoneRidgeRunner]

No disrespect here. sometimes we make mistakes.. Actually, now I think about it, these "answers" could be a fine example of how we need more effiecient Wilderness Education..Which we do need..

Just a thought. With the large amount of Thrus starting in March, wouldnt it be beneficial to hold a "Hikers Education" class of some sort at Amicoloa, Springer, or even Mountain Crossings?. I know this maybe useless, but it is a thought. It couldn't hurt..

But then, I hope if your a Thruhiker. Just a thought. Thats all..

Actually, now that you brought it up...I think a "Hikers Education" class of some sort would be a good idea. Not only concerning LNT methods but a course in emergency wilderness survival as well. Just don't use the reviewing peers of that study for teachers...LOL..

[Jim Adams]

Actually, now that you brought it up...I think a "Hikers Education" class of some sort would be a good idea. Not only concerning LNT methods but a course in emergency wilderness survival as well. Just don't use the reviewing peers of that study for teachers...LOL..
Great idea!...hard to make manditory but a great idea.
Don't get me wrong, I love the wilderness and also the protection of the outdoors but most need to realize that there is no wilderness left in the East...just outdoors. There are alot of things that degrade the AT from nearby sourses that don't even go into the "wilderness". LNT is a great way to spend time outdoors with little impact but the problems go far deeper than just hiker education....acid rain is just one example. Water polution from upstream, air polution from upwind, encroachment from suberbs etc. all affect the AT sometimes w/o ever being near it.

geek

[Jim Adams]

This kind of post is why WE ALL need to to work together to protect the trails..

Dont tell me hypocrits. I deal with off road riders all teh time. The ones I see only want to tear up the creeks and rivers..Such hypocrits..:D

No problem!
Most of my riding friends go out of their way to help maintain trails for riding.
Does the AT need protection?...yes...from all kinds of degrading, be it air, water, human use, horse use, invading plants, invading wildlife, loss of land etc.
I do help to maintain, I do help to protect however I have thru hiked the AT twice, did 1000 miles of the PCT, have hiked the Laurel Highlands Trail multiple times and alot of smaller trails...why?....because I can't "thru ride" my motorcycle there.;)

geek

[Graywolf]

Actually, now that you brought it up...I think a "Hikers Education" class of some sort would be a good idea. Not only concerning LNT methods but a course in emergency wilderness survival as well. Just don't use the reviewing peers of that study for teachers...LOL..

Yes, I think hikers should have some knowlegde of Wilderness First Aide, but as you said, shouldnt be mandatory. I just took a class (Class 1) through the American Red Cross and the Texas Gaurd and I had a blast..It was not only fun but very educational..

Jim,, yes, Its a sad but true story that the Wilderness of the east is pretty much only Outdoors. I know that Blood Mountain has Wilderness Designation, but too me it just isnt the same thing of what I think of Wilderness.. Such is the Great Outdoors.

[Jim Adams]

Yes, I think hikers should have some knowlegde of Wilderness First Aide, but as you said, shouldnt be mandatory. I just took a class (Class 1) through the American Red Cross and the Texas Gaurd and I had a blast..It was not only fun but very educational..

Jim,, yes, Its a sad but true story that the Wilderness of the east is pretty much only Outdoors. I know that Blood Mountain has Wilderness Designation, but too me it just isnt the same thing of what I think of Wilderness.. Such is the Great Outdoors.

Congratulations on the first aid course! I have been a paramedic for 34 years and the amount of self confidence that first aid gives you while out there is a wonderful thing to have. It will be with you for the rest of your life and usually is just common sense.

geek

[restless]

I just followed this link and EVERY one of the answers shown in Table 1 are INCORRECT, WRONG...any way you look at it! Seriously...I didn't even bother to look at the rest yet....Table 1 is a JOKE...

good eyes!! I had to go back and look at what you were referring to... I wonder if the people who put that piece out are even aware of the fact that thay have obviously gotten it wrong.:eek:

[Graywolf]

good eyes!! I had to go back and look at what you were referring to... I wonder if the people who put that piece out are even aware of the fact that thay have obviously gotten it wrong.:eek:

I sent them an email explaining the typos..LOL:rolleyes:. Lets see what they say in a couple of days. IF they answer at all....

[LoneRidgeRunner]

good eyes!! I had to go back and look at what you were referring to... I wonder if the people who put that piece out are even aware of the fact that thay have obviously gotten it wrong.:eek:

Thanks Restless...but actually My eyes are pretty bad...I can't even see my PC screen without reading eyes and need my reading eyes AND a small magnifying glass to read small print on topo maps, such as elevations, contour lines etc.....Fortunately.....those answers were obviously wrong..I read and re read it several times before I posted on here that it was wrong....really didn't want a make an idiot outta myself....I do that enough anyway...:D

[Graywolf]

Thanks Restless...but actually My eyes are pretty bad...I can't even see my PC screen without reading eyes and need my reading eyes AND a small magnifying glass to read small print on topo maps, such as elevations, contour lines etc.....Fortunately.....those answers were obviously wrong..I read and re read it several times before I posted on here that it was wrong....really didn't want a make an idiot outta myself....I do that enough anyway...:D

So you may an idiot out of me?...:-?:eek::D:welcome

[restless]

So you may an idiot out of me?...:-?:eek::D:welcome

Welcome to the club:D

[Graywolf]

Welcome to the club:D

LOL...I guess I broke the barrier..

had to say that because my original reply was less than 10 characters..:D

[shelterbuilder]

Trail Maintenance Clubs do one heck of a job and I give thanks. I'm not a fan of shelters and it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they all got torn down allowing more maintenance time for just the tail. I sometimes wonder if shelters take priority over other trail maintenance issues. Trail traffic might ever be slowed by shelter removal (speculation). There are many long trails without a shelter system and they seem to do fine, no reason the AT wouldn't either. Regardless, I'm not holding my breath.:)

Shelters....

They have a special (and historical) place in the AT psyche and will probably be with us 100 years down the road, even though they evoke strong feelings (pro and con) within our group.

I can't speak for other clubs, but BMECC divides trail maintenence from shelters maintenence and oversees each with 2 different committees. Our 65 miles of trail is divided up into smaller sections (from 2 to 5 miles or so) and each small section is given to an individual maintainer. The shelters are given over to 5 shelter maintainers. (The Rt. 501 Shelter and the Eckville Shelter are handled differently by the Corridor Lands Management Committee.) Those individual maintianers are responsible for their own sections or shelters - if more work is needed, the Trailmaster (or the Shelters Committee Chairman) plan extra worktrips to those locations. It's rare that folks from one group overlap into the other - we all have our own likes and dislikes, and the tools and techniques are different for both.

At least in BMECC, the existence of shelters doesn't really impact the footpath maintenence efforts.

WOO - the last time that I was on the Horseshoe Trail (admittedly many years ago), most of the "footpath" was at the bottom of a 4 to 5 foot deep ravine...too many horses wore away the treadway! The 2 user-groups need to be segregated, or the treadway needs to be hardened for horse traffic.

[mweinstone]

shelterbuilder. good point about the horseshoe. been that way a long time. even as a kid when it was leveled, it was a minefeild. all they need is posts and string!two lanes.lol.

bmecc is my adopted club. when i was maby 16, sitting in a three day downpour at the site of the old applebee shelter, a man, i belive he may have been a founder of bmecc, came up and took 4 hikers to his land down the mountain to the shelter witch had been removed for being to beer filled and given to him. do you know of whom i speak? in 76 he was about 70 or 80. gave us elderberry wine and smokes every morning while we waited out the hurricane.

[AndyBees]

The AT is all about people....humans. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a trial. That should be obvious to all of us.

I am a NEWBIE to hiking. Although, I have been all over the lower 48, Canada, and Alaska (drove up there and back 7 times). I've only done very short hikes in numerous parks where we either visited or stayed down thru the years.

So, I've only recently developed an interest in the AT. I've read over 25 Thru-hike journals and numerous journals of aborted Thru-hikes. In most instances, if it were not for a few references, you would think none of the people hiked the same trail. As they say, hike your own hike. Well, all those journalist wrote their own journal.

I do not recall a single instance where litter or garbage was mentioned, other than at shelters. Many never complained about the trail being rutted out, washed out, etc., while others constantly mentioned something negative about trail conditions.

Someone mentioned that hikers didn't cause the rutting, it was water....duh! As I recall, the Buffalo rutted numerous places on the western flakes of the Appalachian mountains (buffalo trails). And, I bet, other than an obvious fire (and maybe his initials on a tree....LOL) you would not recognize where D. Boone camped.

My hat is off to the volunteers. Locally, my wife and I wanted to be volunteers to pickup litter along the US Forest Service roads..... it was absolutely amazing at the paper work that was required of us to become a volunteers, which I tossed in the round can after reading. Well, my wife and I will continue to pick-up litter....... I guess if one of those "over trained and under worked" armed rangers writes us a ticket, the judge can figure it out......yes, I'm ranting!

The Point is, keep the Goverment out of this issue!

Please keep the US Congress out of this issue. To the original poster, as many have said, go hike the AT and then give it some thoughts!

I will be on the AT either in 2012 or 13 for a Thru-hike.

Trivia: The Alaska Highway is no longer a gravel road!

[mweinstone]

hey andybees. know whats fun?
hate to admit this but its true. if you and your wife were gonna pick up trash on forrest service roads, thats not so fun. pull your car over on a whimm at an AT roadcrossing and pick both sides for trash. in the car have cold drinks. meet hikers.blast your radio and even invite them to help if they like. its way funner and way more trash needing picking up. forrest service roads cant be walked far before one finds more trash than one can carry. its more of a job for a crew with a vehical.they got dumps out there.if you walk by one and continue picking up cans and gum wrappers, its kinda a bummer.

trash on trasher!

[AndyBees]

Well, my wife I use to pull a trailer behind our ATV and pickup garbage/litter along the nearby US Forest Service road (My property joins the Daniel Boone National Forest). One day we were picking up litter and a forest ranger drove up. He advised us that it was illegal to have the ATV on the road.........wow! That was about 15 years ago.

Since that incident, we have limited our garbage pickup to other trips we make to the forest..... bird watching, photo of wildflowers, etc. When we stop, if there is litter, I pick it up while the wife is doing her photography!

We are thinking about visiting Damascus during the festivities....close to our wedding anniversary (5/20)......38 years to my lovely wife! Maybe we can clean out a ditch line or two in celebration......LOL

[mweinstone]

:welcome

I am new to hiking, but from my perspective it seems the A.T. is heavily overused. I have been looking at pictures of the trail posted by fellow users here and a fair amount of them show damaged lands, garbage, etc.

It seems the A.T. takes a heavy beating from people!. I am planning a thru-hike in 2012, and I am worrying what damage I will see. I really do not want to hike a overused and damaged trail, and what Backpacker magazine has said worries me! ( A few issues ago )

It has forced me to think about the future of the A.T., and possible solutions.

1: Limit the number of people allowed to hike the entire A.T. each year.

1a: Stagger the release of hikers from the start. For example, allow only 20 to leave one day, 10 the next, 0 the third, 20 the next, etc.. which fits with my next suggestion.

2: Require thru-hikers to purchase a National Trail tag of some sort, say starting at $250. ( this will keep many of the crazies and undesirables off the trail as well if strictly enforced )

3: Every 5rd year, close the entire trail for 2 years to all traffic both day and thru hikers, to allow nature to recover itself. This will also allow major repairs to the trails to take place, shelters, water, etc.

I have more ideas I want to share but I am still working on them. I sent the above ideas to my State and Federal representatives for them to consider, and as I get more involved in the A.T. I hope to one day take the trail to the next level, without further damaging the trail.

Also note the National Trail Tag can be 'loaded' up to allow access to all of the National Trails, and you would be able to buy access on a per year basis, or a lifetime access. The only issue with this is that it has to be totally assured legally that 100% of the proceeds from these sales go directly to the benefit of the A.T. and/or the other trails one can load the card up with.

For example, if one pays for a lifetime access to the CDT, those funds can ONLY be used for the direct benefit of the CDT. Nothing else!

What do you all think? I know that these ideas are strange and some directly go against what the A.T. is about, but something needs to be done to save the trail for future generations, and heck, even improve it! :banana

it dosnt get any better than this. we can feed from this one till the thaw.

[mweinstone]

id like to point out #3

he speled 5th wrong. okay so i just spelled spelled wrong. so what were laughing at him not me. i love the close the trail for 2 years to clean the privy and sweep the shelter.

[mweinstone]

"I have more ideas I want to share but I am still working on them."
come for a hike with us and change your mind about the trail being anything but beautiful and well maintained.stop reading that rag.

[Tennessee Viking]

WisconsinHiker...walk it for yourself before throwing out extreme ideas. The trail might not be totally perfect, but its not on its last legs.

The trail is evolving every day. Relocations are built so the old areas can heal. New routes are created to more effectively travel along the landscape,

As for any other damage, it is because of the lack of true interest and education about the trail that a few selected people have.

True hikers go out and enjoy trails. There is a growing culture that continues grow that is appreciating the AT and other trails better every year.

Any major changes, like the ones you mentioned, will only hurt the trail and its communities. Hostels will close up. Outfitters will go out of business. Trail towns get revenue from hikers. You take that away for a year or two, and you will see towns dry up.

I suggest if you want to make a difference, join a hiking club that maintains trail. Hike the trail before passing judgement on the AT.

[Cookerhiker]

....Trivia: The Alaska Highway is no longer a gravel road!

I drove it in its entirety last summer.

[fredmugs]

this guys like bizzaro me! lmao.

This is the equivalent of Charles Manson finding you a bit peculiar.

If there was a $250 fee to hike the AT and I still wanted to hike it I would hang out at Neels Gap and buy one from some newbie quitter.

[Digger'02]

Sorry if this has been said before but this thread is long!

Wisco hiker, the trail is in excellent shape much to the credit of the Volunteers and the Agencys (USFS and NPS mostly) who both are dedicated to keeping the trail a premire recreation destination.-it is.

However...we all know that the A.T. is 'limited" right now and will be for the forseeable future. Georgia, the smokies, the whites and on a case by case basis each year. (anyone planning on staying at Russell field say around june this year better have a backup plan) the problem? That the 1% of hikers who are jerks plus the 3% who don't know/don't care/don't prepare can actually have a significant impact.

The solution? Well part of it is making sure that every hiker gets up and talks to someone when they see them screwing up a campsite. they key to keeping the USFS from closing a campsite is for hikers to take care of themselves. We do i think, but with the Bill Bryson generation out there, the work is never done.

[lutefisk]

then I remembered a backpacking trip when i was 16 or so, my 1st and when i left a cache of canned food under a log because it was to heavy to carry.... I never went back for it. I am Katz... or was anyway once when I was 16.

You can quit feeling guilty about it, I ate your stash of food.

[darkage]

You can quit feeling guilty about it, I ate your stash of food.

Called trail-magic. =P

[Graywolf]

Here is a study done a few years ago on the AT. As we discussed here on this topic and many issues were brought up concerning the impact of Day hikers vs. the impact of Thru-hikers, in this study, day hikers scored lower and Thru-Hikers scored the highest..

www.wilderness.net/library/documents/aug03_newman.pdf (http://www.wilderness.net/library/documents/aug03_newman.pdf)

Graywolf

Wilderness.net answered my email and it seems they didnt even know it wa in there archive. This article was not theres but put out by the International Journal of Wilderness. In the August 2003 issue. I just sent an email to them explaining the mistakes (several). Lets see what there reaction will be..

Graywolf

[Sassafras Lass]

:welcome

I am new to hiking, but from my perspective it seems the A.T. is heavily overused. I have been looking at pictures of the trail posted by fellow users here and a fair amount of them show damaged lands, garbage, etc.

It seems the A.T. takes a heavy beating from people!. I am planning a thru-hike in 2012, and I am worrying what damage I will see. I really do not want to hike a overused and damaged trail, and what Backpacker magazine has said worries me! ( A few issues ago )

It has forced me to think about the future of the A.T., and possible solutions.

1: Limit the number of people allowed to hike the entire A.T. each year.

1a: Stagger the release of hikers from the start. For example, allow only 20 to leave one day, 10 the next, 0 the third, 20 the next, etc.. which fits with my next suggestion.

2: Require thru-hikers to purchase a National Trail tag of some sort, say starting at $250. ( this will keep many of the crazies and undesirables off the trail as well if strictly enforced )

3: Every 5rd year, close the entire trail for 2 years to all traffic both day and thru hikers, to allow nature to recover itself. This will also allow major repairs to the trails to take place, shelters, water, etc.

I have more ideas I want to share but I am still working on them. I sent the above ideas to my State and Federal representatives for them to consider, and as I get more involved in the A.T. I hope to one day take the trail to the next level, without further damaging the trail.

Also note the National Trail Tag can be 'loaded' up to allow access to all of the National Trails, and you would be able to buy access on a per year basis, or a lifetime access. The only issue with this is that it has to be totally assured legally that 100% of the proceeds from these sales go directly to the benefit of the A.T. and/or the other trails one can load the card up with.

For example, if one pays for a lifetime access to the CDT, those funds can ONLY be used for the direct benefit of the CDT. Nothing else!

What do you all think? I know that these ideas are strange and some directly go against what the A.T. is about, but something needs to be done to save the trail for future generations, and heck, even improve it! :banana


This smells like a load of buffalo chips to me.

Just what we need - more goverment fees and policing of something that is designed to be free of Overlords and taxation.

[Sassafras Lass]

I know for now it seems hard to enforce, but I am talking 50-100 years out. How well will the trail be then?

One day we will have the technology to implant a tracking tag in all newborn babies, and it will take a few generations to implement but it will be set up so if someone steps on the closed trail that is not supposed to be there, their universal account is charged the fee.

For this to work the word has to get out that the trails are closed, or else the fine based on nextgen GPS tagging is enforced.

I agree that NOW it is hard to enforce, but we can still charge people to walk the trail, and earn valuable cash for our national trails. Sure, until technology catches up it will be impossible to enforce, but at least those who truly care about the trail can pay to walk it.

We charge for National Parks, I do not think this is much of a leap.


Ahhhhh . . . . so YOU'RE going to be the one enforcing the Mark of the Beast? Nice to meet you. I'm gonna grab my Remingtons and retire to my cabin now.

[Sassafras Lass]

Next we'll be hearing how this is the mark of the beast...

. . . . . . why, yes I did. :p

[Jack Tarlin]

I tried to read this whole thread, but gave up.

In brief: yeah, the Trail is quite heavily used. It's perhaps the most famous hiking Trail in the United States, and something like half the U.S. population lives within a day's drive of it. Also, the Trail includes such popular areas as the Green Mountains, the White Mountains, and two National Parks, one of which, Great Smoky Mountains, is the most visited National Park in the nation.

So yeah, unless you go to very out of the way parts of the Trail, or hike in the off-season (like wintertime), you're gonna encounter other people.

Those really troubled by this reality should plan off-season hiking, or better yet, might want to think about hiking somewhere else, which would mean they could find more secluded places to hike, and also, by going elsewhere, they'd help decrease the problem they seem to be so concerned about.

Everybody wins.

[darkage]

I tried to read this whole thread, but gave up.

In brief: yeah, the Trail is quite heavily used. It's perhaps the most famous hiking Trail in the United States, and something like half the U.S. population lives within a day's drive of it. Also, the Trail includes such popular areas as the Green Mountains, the White Mountains, and two National Parks, one of which, Great Smoky Mountains, is the most visited National Park in the nation.

So yeah, unless you go to very out of the way parts of the Trail, or hike in the off-season (like wintertime), you're gonna encounter other people.

Those really troubled by this reality should plan off-season hiking, or better yet, might want to think about hiking somewhere else, which would mean they could find more secluded places to hike, and also, by going elsewhere, they'd help decrease the problem they seem to be so concerned about.

Everybody wins.

Two Thumbs Up!

[mweinstone]

this threads lost its hate. it had more hate. what happened to the hate?

[darkage]

after i figured he's gotta be trolling and couldn't be serious ... i found it quite funny, hard to hate a joke like that .... lmao

[WisconsinHiker2011]

I have drafted a new letter to my State and Federal representatives based on what I have read in this entire thread.

I have taken everything you guys have said and further explained and expanded the concerns of Hikers and the concerns of the A.T.

I still strongly feel there are numerous ways to obtain money from the A.T., ways that are not being sought out right now. Money that should be earned and go directly to secure the future of the A.T., from the very persons like myself that are life long supporters and backers of the A.T.

It is going to cost a lot of money to secure land around the A.T. so in 50-100-200 years Hikers are not looking at the loading docks of a Wal-Mart as they Hike along the trail.

Again, I am sorry that some here felt the need to lash out and attack me personally, but they need to realize that the only constant is change, and that the A.T. needs to change in a way in order for it to survive in a quality state.

I also want to assure you all that while I have not yet hiked the trail, I am fully versed in the history of the trail, in all aspects. I am not just talking out my ass about the trail. I know the minutiae of the trail, the laws around it, the threats and allies it has, and why it is vitally critical that this treasure of our country not just be protected, but protected in a proactive way.

Some have attacked me for participating in our government. I will never apologize for taking part in the democratic process. We are all free to contact our representatives if we wish to do so. I urge you to participate in government on all levels.

Government is NOT 'evil'. We are ALL the 'government'. The government is all of us. The government is directly responsible for giving us the A.T. I do not understand some of the distrust of our government that people are expressing here.

It reminds of the early days of the trail when backwoods Appalachian mountain citizens were deeply distrustful of the 'government trail' that was in their backyard. :D