View Full Version : When using both a CCF and inflatable pad, which goes on top for most warmth?
I am interested in your experiences and also any discussion of the science of this. So . . . what have you found to be warmest and why?
My specific gear for this question will be the combination of a NeoAir and a Ridge Rest on a winter snowshoe backpacking trip in snow, sleeping under a tarp, with temps at night likely to be 5 to 15 degrees F.
be :sun NOT ":("
johnnyblisters
01-29-2011, 18:28
I would have the CCF pad on the bottom providing a vapor barrier against the ground and the NeoAir for your direct insulation.
CCF against your body. Feel the heat!
In my opinion, air mattresses are pretty useless when sleeping on snow & ice. You'd be better off with two CCF pads.
The Neo Air is not exactly a standard air mat...
I have used that on top of my home made concertina type foam mat and worked fine on soft snow as well as iced snow.
The Neo Air is designed to reflect back your own heat, that is why I had it on top of the other ...
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e389/Francophoto/odds/Crazy-Mat-1.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e389/Francophoto/odds/Crazy-Mat-2.jpg
(unlike in the shot above...)
Franco
+1 for ccf bottom, neo top.
ARambler
01-29-2011, 20:51
Put the ccf on the bottom. The Neoair will work much better when it does not get a little twig poking a hole in it. For the nights before you get a hole, the ccf pad will insulate the whole Neoair. If you put the ccf pad on top, only the part touching your body will insulate. The rest of the pad will be wasted.
Rambler
For a standard air mattress, the air inside cools with the outside temps and as your body temp drops, so in below freezing weather, I believe its better to have the CCF on top. As I understand the Neo, its supposed to be better about retaining heat, so maybe you could keep it on top down to a lower temp.
I thought you were suppose to put the CCF on top and NeoAir on the bottom. I heard its warmer that way.
SwitchbackVT
01-29-2011, 21:57
I was checking out Samuel Gardner's journal the other day, and this was his post on Day 18:
"Figured out a warm sleeping system last night. We put the foam sleeping pads on top of the neo-air sleeping pads instead of underneath. So much warmer!"
I'd heard that before as well. To hear it from a guy who is currently hiking in extreme winter conditions certainly supports that idea.
ARambler
01-29-2011, 21:58
I thought you were suppose to put the CCF on top and NeoAir on the bottom. I heard its warmer that way.
But in this thread you have "heard" at least 3 people, say it is warmer with the ccf on the bottom. Did you hear from other Luddites or engineers?
Scope, I like the idea of and experiment both ways.
Rambler
ARambler
01-29-2011, 22:02
:
...
"Figured out a warm sleeping system last night. We put the foam sleeping pads on top of the neo-air sleeping pads instead of underneath. So much warmer!"
...
Wow that was fast.
Wow that was fast.
Well, there you go. A Guy sleeping in sub zero temps says CCF on top.
The CCF always on top... that's the only way to get the most warmth.
And yeah, sub zero sleeping experience...
From Cascade Designs FAQs:
"For the ultimate, ultralight solution to cold weather sleeping, travel with a small ProLite, ProLite Plus, or NeoAir mattress (depending on temperatures), coupled with a full-length RidgeRest® mattress as a bottom layer."
Seems they recommend the foam mattress on the bottom.
I have a 1/4" GG foam pad. If I wanted to use it on top how would I keep it in place? With all the tossing and turning I do throughout the night I'm sure the and would end up at the foot of the tent. I though about a few loops of string around both pads but haven't tried it yet.
SwitchbackVT
01-29-2011, 22:25
Not sure the price tag of this, but thermarest launched a new ridgerest closed cell pad wrapped in space blanket material. Slightly heavier, but supposedly retains 10% more body heat.
http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/trek-and-travel/ridge-rest-solite/product
I think a few years from now we'll be seeing a lot more of this stuff, hopefully at a cheap price tag.
In any uninsulated air mattress there are convection currents of air. Any air within the pad heated by your body will quickly be cooled by the cold air layer below it. Closed cell foam traps warmth.
Use the closed cell on top for warmth, the air mattress on the bottom for comfort, or leave it home if warmth is all you need.
Note: If you get a flat with an insulated air mattress you lose not only your comfort but your insulation as it gets squashed by your body weight.
I have not added them up, but seems like opinions are not overwhelming for either option. Maybe a personal gear test tomorrow night . . . If I do that; I'll post the result.
BTW, to get to the stated R2.5, the Neo Air has to be 80 % inflated.
If you have it rock hard , the R value goes up a bit and conversely it is lower if only half inflated.
Franco
Black Wolf
01-29-2011, 23:15
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/3/0/6/1/1/hammock201_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=45076&c=701)
carry two CCF's ... sandwich them if you're so inclined ... for extreme cold I carry this setup ... trimmed down it weighs 12 ozs. I stack 'em with the self-inflate on top ... seems to be more comfortable to me as well as less condensation
Count me in with the bunch for ccf on top.
I have a NeoAir (regular) and a Gossamer Gear 1/8" ThinLight pad.
A while back I slept in my yard using these on two consecutive nights in which the temps dropped to the mid teens (and much lower with wind chills ~ however, this was not the ground temps...) Both of these times I used the ccf on top of the Neo and was fine. (I was really seeing if I could tell a difference in my entire sleep system when under a tarp one night and in a tent the next.) Both of these nights I stayed good and warm.
http://stick13.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/backyard-camping-experiment-results/
So, shortly after, my son, a few buddies and I headed out to Sipsey for a night. This night I decided I would try it in reverse, the Neo on top. Temps were in the mid - high teens, again though, ground temps were not necessarily... When I first crawled in I got cold. I thought it would get better so I waited. About an hour later, I decided I couldn't take it anymore and needed to do something different. I put the ccf on top, and BAM, instant warmth. I slept on it like that all night long...
http://stick13.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/january-sipsey-wilderness-tr/
As far as the GG pad getting knocked off or moved off at night, no it ain't hap;pening. At least not mine. I was afraid of that at first, but not for long. The Neo is a little sticky feeling, and the GG pad is even more so. These things almost stick together. Actually, I have found that the GG pad even helps to hold my Cocoon UltraLight Air Core pillow in place when I use the GG pad on top of the Neo. The GG pad sticks to the polyester side of the pillow. Works out great!
Yes though, the GG pad is about a foot or so shorter than my Neo, but that is ok. I just center the GG pad (maybe even up towards the top a little more to help hold the pillow in place). Due to this, I can tell a temperature difference when my feet are at the very bottom of the Neo (not on the GG pad). However, some warm socks fix this up, and if needed I can stick an extra piece of clothes or something on top of the Neo.
I like the GG 1/8" pads because they are so light and pack down small. Also because they are great insulators. I am super surprised with this super thin 1/8" piece of foam. I do plan on getting the 1/4" though in temps much below 20. And as light and small as they are I would probably just carry both in colder weather.
The thought of using the GG pad under my Neo was also very appealing simply because I was thinking of protection. But I have found the GG pad to be more effective in terms of insulating me from the ground on top of the Neo. (And like with any other sleeping pad, I will just have to take a moment and actually check the spot where I will be laying the pad down to be sure it is safe...)
So, that's my 2 cents...
BTW, to make it clear, I used the CCF tiles under because they would not work for me the other way around not necessarily because I know (or think) that it is warmer that way.
Franco
Your video with Matthew sure brings back memories. My own sons are now 27 and 24. Your experience convinces me to go with CCF on top, and maybe even go with a thinner CCF pad than the Ridge Rest. Thanks for the advice.
Count me in with the bunch for ccf on top.
I have a NeoAir (regular) and a Gossamer Gear 1/8" ThinLight pad.
A while back I slept in my yard using these on two consecutive nights in which the temps dropped to the mid teens (and much lower with wind chills ~ however, this was not the ground temps...) Both of these times I used the ccf on top of the Neo and was fine. (I was really seeing if I could tell a difference in my entire sleep system when under a tarp one night and in a tent the next.) Both of these nights I stayed good and warm.
http://stick13.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/backyard-camping-experiment-results/
So, shortly after, my son, a few buddies and I headed out to Sipsey for a night. This night I decided I would try it in reverse, the Neo on top. Temps were in the mid - high teens, again though, ground temps were not necessarily... When I first crawled in I got cold. I thought it would get better so I waited. About an hour later, I decided I couldn't take it anymore and needed to do something different. I put the ccf on top, and BAM, instant warmth. I slept on it like that all night long...
http://stick13.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/january-sipsey-wilderness-tr/
As far as the GG pad getting knocked off or moved off at night, no it ain't hap;pening. At least not mine. I was afraid of that at first, but not for long. The Neo is a little sticky feeling, and the GG pad is even more so. These things almost stick together. Actually, I have found that the GG pad even helps to hold my Cocoon UltraLight Air Core pillow in place when I use the GG pad on top of the Neo. The GG pad sticks to the polyester side of the pillow. Works out great!
Yes though, the GG pad is about a foot or so shorter than my Neo, but that is ok. I just center the GG pad (maybe even up towards the top a little more to help hold the pillow in place). Due to this, I can tell a temperature difference when my feet are at the very bottom of the Neo (not on the GG pad). However, some warm socks fix this up, and if needed I can stick an extra piece of clothes or something on top of the Neo.
I like the GG 1/8" pads because they are so light and pack down small. Also because they are great insulators. I am super surprised with this super thin 1/8" piece of foam. I do plan on getting the 1/4" though in temps much below 20. And as light and small as they are I would probably just carry both in colder weather.
The thought of using the GG pad under my Neo was also very appealing simply because I was thinking of protection. But I have found the GG pad to be more effective in terms of insulating me from the ground on top of the Neo. (And like with any other sleeping pad, I will just have to take a moment and actually check the spot where I will be laying the pad down to be sure it is safe...)
So, that's my 2 cents...
Stick and Twig, thanks for that report. I plan on using the Neo regular with a GG 1/4" full length pad along with my Feathered Friends 20 degree bag for a mid March start in GA. If it gets real cold I'll add a puffy jacket and pants. I think this set up will keep me warm.
If you are curious, try it out for yourselves. I found that I immediately noticed the cold with the Neo on top but gave it the benefit of the doubt and waited about an hour before I changed it around. Then, once changed around, I immediately noticed the warmth, and it stuck around.
I do want to get a 1/4" GG ThinLight pad though for colder times, and I would even bring both and sandwhich the Neo between them. Then I wonder which would work better in which place... 1/4" on bottom, Neo and then 1/8" on top, or reverse...
The Snowman
01-30-2011, 20:50
I vote for foam on top for the most warmth.
I would put whichever one had the highest R-value on the top against my body.
Panzer
If you are curious, try it out for yourselves. I found that I immediately noticed the cold with the Neo on top but gave it the benefit of the doubt and waited about an hour before I changed it around. Then, once changed around, I immediately noticed the warmth, and it stuck around.
OK - did the gear test thing last night, from 10 PM to 12:00 AM in the backyard, where I had already set up my tarp in the afternoon.
Conditions:
8" of snow, 10 PM temp 17 deg F, 11 PM and 12 AM temp 10 deg F.
Pads:
NeoAir, fairly fully inflated but not hard; Evazote 5 mm CCF pad (6 oz)
Sleeping quilt:
JRB Sierra Sniveler, with homemade modifications that allow me to cinch sides down against pad to greatly reduce air entry/exit
Clothes worn:
feet:liner socks and Vermont Darn Tough Merino crew socks; lower: underarmor boxers, sport silk long bottoms, WM flash pants; upper: Icebreaker 200 merino short sleeve, Marmot Dri-Clime windshirt with homemade nylon hood modification, Possumdown beanie, Icebreaker merino glove liners
Results:
Phase One: Started out with CCF pad on top of NeoAir, wearing an additional layer I thought I would need (BPL Cocoon hoodie) but was immediately too hot and took the Cocoon off. Was then toasty warm with no cold spots either on my side or on stomach. Let myself "cool down" for about an hour, but was still warm.
Phase Two: Got up and moved the CCF pad underneath the NeoAir; checked temp (9.9 degrees F at that time); got back under the quilt. Felt a bit cooler (but not cold) for about 5-10 minutes, but then was toasty again with no cold spots either on my side or stomach.
Never had to put the Cocoon back on, which rather impressed me with the insulation value of the JRB quilt in combination with the two pads. I figured I'd be OK down to 20 degrees, but did not anticipate I'd be warm to 10 degrees.
Conclusions: I could be warm enough either way, though when lying on the CCF pad directly, there is no need for body heat to warm anything under you, so no wait for warmth to be felt. If lying on NeoAir, body heat has to warm the top layer of the NeoAir, which takes a few minutes (just like warming up a sleeping bag does). Another inflatable other than the NeoAir may give different results. So for me bottom line is that I'll probably use CCF on top unless the conditions suggest the NeoAir may need protection from puncture risk. The CCF is "stickier" and hard to turn over on without moving it - I may try to attach a piece of silnylon or other more slippery material to one side so that I can spin in place more easily.
My guess is the the Neo is supposed to be more efficient with a bottom ccf pad, so that it should work to mfr specs, um... more efficiently? Anyway, its still an air mattress and my guess is that until you lay on it a while and heat up the air, its going to be cooler. I believe, and I don't know for sure since I don't have one, but if you wait to blow it up until right before bed, the air inside will be warmer (you will, too, just from blowing), and laying with Neo on top, it should work fine to where its rated.
See, the thing is that the Neo is expensive for a reason... its supposed to use heat reflection to keep you warmer. Put it on the bottom with ccf pad on top and you've got a very expensive regular air mattress. The ccf is going to effectively block the heat radiation process, so any increased warmth from the ccf pad (increased from by itself on the ground), is likely due to the ccf pad forming around you more given the soft air mattress underneath.
Maybe the Gossamer pad as described above let's a little heat through, I don't know. Hard to argue with "experience" described above, but in theory it doesn't make much sense. It may also be that the Gossamer pad was not able to do an effective job insulating the bottom of the Neo due to its 1/8th thickness.
My guess is the the Neo is supposed to be more efficient with a bottom ccf pad, so that it should work to mfr specs, um... more efficiently? Anyway, its still an air mattress and my guess is that until you lay on it a while and heat up the air, its going to be cooler. I believe, and I don't know for sure since I don't have one, but if you wait to blow it up until right before bed, the air inside will be warmer (you will, too, just from blowing), and laying with Neo on top, it should work fine to where its rated.
Just to clarify, used a BA Pumphouse to inflate NeoAir, so air temp inside was same as outside temp, but I agree with your point.
the Neo is expensive for a reason... its supposed to use heat reflection to keep you warmer. Put it on the bottom with ccf pad on top and you've got a very expensive regular air mattress.
What you say about losing the special benefits of NeoAir when CCF is on top makes sense, but the R value of the Evazote 5mm pad is supposedly just 0.66, so it's not a perfect insulator, and some heat loss could still occur conductively. Even a regular Ridge Rest is only 2.1. As you suggest, the NeoAir internal construction may still be helpful to limit this.
Good to hear that you got it worked out QiWiz. And thanks for sharing the results. I didn't realize that you were using a quilt with your set-up. I could imagine how the pad would be hard to keep in place like that. Currently, my cold weather bag is an actual bag, so it does great on top of the ccf pad.
Another thing to take into consideration here though is that snow is an insulator as well. It actually has an R-Value of 1. So, sleeping on a cold hard ground may be colder than on snow.
Scope, I also wonder if the pad were say 1/4" instead of the 1/8" would I have gotten the same results with the ccf pad on the bottom of the Neo...? I need to order one of the 1/4" pads.
Scope, I also wonder if the pad were say 1/4" instead of the 1/8" would I have gotten the same results with the ccf pad on the bottom of the Neo...? I need to order one of the 1/4" pads.
My guess is that most of the warmth is coming from the CCF due to it being able to make more contact with your body due to the soft underside created by the air mattress. I suspect this would be less so with a thicker pad. The tackyness of the Neo top probably comes in real handy with this setup, but in terms of warmth I'm thinking you'd do just as well with a reflector shield underneath a regular (i.e. lot less expensive and just as light) air mattress.
I've slept out in cold weather quite a bit with my neo-air and one or two thinlight pads, to include just this past weekend. If it's not too cold I like a pad (even a 1/8" thinlight) under the neo air to extend the life of the inflatable. But if my back is cold then the pad or pads are definitely on top of the Neo Air. The approach worked for me in temps down to the teens last year starting early on the AT --- there was a distinct difference.
I'm sure that the neo-air does gain some R-Value by reflecting heat back per the manufacturer, but reading this and other similar threads carefully, it seems to me that everyone with significant experience at actually doing this at low temps agrees that you're warmer with the ccf pad on top, or at least insofar as I recall.