PDA

View Full Version : Tarptent question



10-K
02-02-2011, 15:17
I took my new TT Rainbow out on a 3 night hike this week and on the last night we were in one of those "howling winds, driving rain" storms on the side of a mountain.

One thing I noticed is that a fine mist seemed to somehow come through the tent walls - at first I thought it was my imagination but I put my headlight on and could see the reflections of the mist. It was almost like someone was spraying a flower mister every few minutes or something.

It wasn't devastating and nothing go seriously wet but in the morning everything in my tent was damp even though no rain entered the tent directly. Condensation was not an issue.

Is this something unique to Tarptents? I've been through some serious weather, including a tropical storm, in my Lunar Solo/Duo and have never experienced this before.

bigcranky
02-02-2011, 16:12
I don't know if there is any real difference in the two brands, but in my own experience, I had the misting in a Double Rainbow and went through a similar storm in a Lunar Duo without. That said, it's really difficult to compare the strength of the rain storm several months apart...

swamp dawg
02-02-2011, 16:30
Go to the Tarptent home page and click on the Frequently Asked Questions section. Look for the question about sylicone impregnated nylon and the misting problem. Henry explains the misting problem. We have serious rain down here in the southeast as oppose to West coast rain. Heading north......swamp dawg

couscous
02-02-2011, 16:34
Q: Is silicone-impregnated ripstop nylon waterproof?.
A: Silicone impregnated ripstop nylon is waterproof within "normal operating conditions." In very heavy rain and high velocity wind-driven rain some extremely light interior misting is normal and equivalent to increased interior humidity.
- http://www.tarptent.com/faq.html

10-K
02-02-2011, 16:36
Dang, how about that... "high velocity wind-driven rain" is a perfect description of what we were in.

At least I'm not going crazy or imagining things....

So I wonder if the liner would address that - probably so?

Franco
02-02-2011, 16:43
Yes you can get misting by penetration.
The silnylon used by TT and SMD (and others...) is rated at 1200mm , that means it can hold a column of water 1200mm high without leaking.
If the rain drops are large enough they build up more pressure than the 1200mm rating can hold.
Not common at all but it does happen.
BTW, there are several other tent fabrics in use that (inc Epic and polyester) have a rating between 800 and 1500 mm (31"-59")
Polyester has usually a PU coating. The thicker the coating the more waterproof it becomes but the heavier it will be.
PU coating also weakens the fabric and it can (and eventually will) perish, ( the sticky/smelly tent fabric you read about)
I did some tests with the TT sil and verified the waterhead.
Just to try it , I painted a very thin coat of silicone on a piece of the fabric (much higher dilution then when seam sealing) that took the waterhead to about 2000mm.
But I have not bothered doing any of my shelters with that.
Franco
[email protected]

Franco
02-02-2011, 16:48
The mist penetrating the silnylon has very little pressure so it will not penetrate the liner. This is a picture of the liner holding about 16 liters of water.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e389/Francophoto/odds/Sil-wh-test-2.jpg
I left it there all day, no drips...
Franco

10-K
02-02-2011, 16:52
Of course like Big Cranky said you can't compare storms readily but I've spent more than 90 days in my Lunar Solo/Duo tents and those included some serious storms - worse than the one last night - and I've never had any kind of misting problem -ever-. Strange that it would happen with my Rainbow on the first storm.

Are you sure they use the exact same material?




Yes you can get misting by penetration.
The silnylon used by TT and SMD (and others...) is rated at 1200mm , that means it can hold a column of water 1200mm high without leaking.
If the rain drops are large enough they build up more pressure than the 1200mm rating can hold.
Not common at all but it does happen.
BTW, there are several other tent fabrics in use that (inc Epic and polyester) have a rating between 800 and 1500 mm (31"-59")
Polyester has usually a PU coating. The thicker the coating the more waterproof it becomes but the heavier it will be.
PU coating also weakens the fabric and it can (and eventually will) perish, ( the sticky/smelly tent fabric you read about)
I did some tests with the TT sil and verified the waterhead.
Just to try it , I painted a very thin coat of silicone on a piece of the fabric (much higher dilution then when seam sealing) that took the waterhead to about 2000mm.
But I have not bothered doing any of my shelters with that.
Franco
[email protected]

10-K
02-02-2011, 16:53
Impressive!


The mist penetrating the silnylon has very little pressure so it will not penetrate the liner. This is a picture of the liner holding about 16 liters of water.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e389/Francophoto/odds/Sil-wh-test-2.jpg
I left it there all day, no drips...
Franco

Snowleopard
02-02-2011, 16:59
It can be hard to distinguish between misting coming through the fabric and condensation on the inner surface being knocked off by the force of rain hitting the exterior surface. My guess would be it's condensation being banged off by the force of wind and rain. The rain was probably cold which would contribute to condensation. The liner probably would help some, but I can't guess how much.
Much more discussion here: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=14966&skip_to_post=111477
--Walter

10-K
02-02-2011, 17:12
No, believe me, this was definitely misting. It has a certain force to it - like it was being pushed (or should I say, sprayed).

In fact, I had a sponge with me and kept the tent wiped down even though it wasn't condensing enough to be absolutely necessary. With the winds blowing 40+ mph ventilation was not an issue at all.


It can be hard to distinguish between misting coming through the fabric and condensation on the inner surface being knocked off by the force of rain hitting the exterior surface. My guess would be it's condensation being banged off by the force of wind and rain. The rain was probably cold which would contribute to condensation. The liner probably would help some, but I can't guess how much.
Much more discussion here: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=14966&skip_to_post=111477
--Walter

ronmoak
02-02-2011, 17:17
Of course like Big Cranky said you can't compare storms readily but I've spent more than 90 days in my Lunar Solo/Duo tents and those included some serious storms - worse than the one last night - and I've never had any kind of misting problem -ever-. Strange that it would happen with my Rainbow on the first storm.

Are you sure they use the exact same material?

To be accurate, both Henry and I purchase our Silnylon from the same source. However, they carry two different styles of Silnylon with different coatings.

Henry uses one version, I use the other. The version I'm using has more coating. I believe Henry likes the other version because it's stretch works better with the shape of his tents. But, you'll have to check with him directly to confirm that.

Since switching to the new Silnylon several years ago, I've had no reports of misting on our tents.

Also for anyone interested, we've started our Scratch and Dent sale today. You can pickup a Lunar Duo at a really good price.

Ron

10-K
02-02-2011, 17:24
Also for anyone interested, we've started our Scratch and Dent sale today. You can pickup a Lunar Duo at a really good price.

Ron

The Lunar Duo is, without a doubt, my favorite piece of gear. You hit the jackpot with that one.

I recommend it every chance I get - at the S&D price of $240 it's no-brainer.

Franco
02-02-2011, 18:05
Just realised looking at the larger shot above (I cliked on a thumbnail...) that what I posted is in fact a piece of silnylon not the liner at all.
Can't find a shot of the liner but I had it set up in a similar way but with much less water , still several liters so much more that a few drips from mist or condensation dripping.
Franco

Tipi Walter
02-02-2011, 18:20
Here's some pertinent info you may find interesting from Wikipedia:

"Rain resistance is measured as a hydrostatic head in millimetres (mm). This indicates the pressure of water needed to penetrate a fabric. Heavy or wind-driven rain has a higher pressure than light rain. Standing on a groundsheet increases the pressure on any water underneath. Fabric with a hydrostatic head rating of 1000 mm or less is best regarded as shower resistant, with 1500 mm being usually suitable for summer camping. Tents for year-round use generally have at least 2000 mm; expedition tents intended for extreme conditions are often rated at 3000 mm. Where quoted, groundsheets may be rated for 5000 mm or more."


So, I went looking for my Hilleberg tent's rating and found the Kerlon 1800 silnylon fly has a 3,000 mm figure---and here's the best of all: The floor is 100 denier with a 7,000 mm rating.

garbanz
02-02-2011, 18:51
Misting occurs with the tarptents because of big deluge type rain drops spraying condensation downwards. Thats why the only thing in my pack that isnt lightweight is the tent.

Franco
02-02-2011, 18:56
BTW, Ron is correct , of course, about the silnylon used by him and TT.
The floor in the TT is the same type used for the fly by SMD.
It has some PU content so it is a bit more "waterproof" but indeed it has less stretch.

Franco

skinewmexico
02-02-2011, 19:09
I've always wondered about using the same mix used for seam sealing, and just painting the flat area on the top of the tent. Wish Franco would test that.

Bags4266
02-02-2011, 19:12
10-K the same thing happened to me last year in my contrail. Only difference is that I actually got soaked. I had to take out my poncho to drape over my bag, that result was of course was a wet bag due to the poncho not breathing. Had to take a zero day to dry everything out. Never had these problems in my double wall tent and been in many heavy long hour rain storms.

10-K
02-02-2011, 20:04
I've always wondered about using the same mix used for seam sealing, and just painting the flat area on the top of the tent. Wish Franco would test that.

I had the exact same idea.....

By the time it's seam sealed, add a liner and coat the top I'll have the only 4 lb UL TT on the planet! :)

The design is fantastic but the misting issue is worrisome living down here in the SE like I do... I don't care about condensation - I can cope with that by site selection and a sponge but the misting issue is unavoidable and you can't wipe it up because it's a spray.

And, I must say it was information that was readily available - my bad for not doing my research. I'm going to hang in there with it but it is a downer.

I'd give anything to have a Rainbow made out of the material SMD uses.

(well, not *anything* but you know what I mean....)

10-K
02-02-2011, 20:08
What am I saying... coating the top wouldn't have helped... the mist was coming in from the side opposite the door - probably because that's the way the wind was blowing I'd guess. You'd about have to coat the entire tent to eliminate it.

If a liner will fix it and not give use suck up a lot of room I'll be plenty happy.

Like I say, I really like the tent - especially the design - so I'm not actually b*tching - it was just an unexpected surprise in a not-so-good kind of way.

garlic08
02-02-2011, 20:57
The mist penetrating the silnylon has very little pressure so it will not penetrate the liner. This is a picture of the liner holding about 16 liters of water.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e389/Francophoto/odds/Sil-wh-test-2.jpg
I left it there all day, no drips...
Franco

One would not expect any leaks unless the test exceeded 1200mm of head pressure. Scaling off the bicycle, it doesn't look like the test exceeded 400mm of head. The volume or total weight does not matter--the height of the column does.

Still, the point is valid about the liner seeing very little pressure.

I have experienced pretty heavy misting in my Tarptent. I was also convinced it was condensation being knocked off by heavy rain until I also read TT's website. I have always been able to deal with it using my bandanna. I've been so happy with TT's excellent designs I've never considered switching mfrs.

Praha4
02-02-2011, 21:01
I had a similar misting problem in my TT Moment last summer, only on nights with heavy rain. The misting was noticeable, but I didn't consider it serious enough to stop using the Moment, which I really like. I just assumed this would be an issue with any singe wall UL silnylon.

I'm considering the SMD lunar duo. El Flaco took one on his thru hike last year, and I liked the looks of it. Just haven't pulled the trigger yet to buy one, but getting closer.

Bags4266
02-02-2011, 22:24
Well, my problem was so bad it made me gun shy of using it again.

TheChop
02-02-2011, 22:40
I do not like the way the thread is heading. I bought a rainbow solo and am considering swapping it for a rainbow duo due to condensation on that one solid wall. The idea of the tent misting is not the way I want to spend a rainy night.

Singletrack
02-03-2011, 08:31
It's best not to set up a Tarptent out in the open, unless you are sure it is not going to rain. Get back in the brush, and trees where there is protection from large drops, and blowing rain. Make sure you set it up on leaves, to help prevent splatter. This will help somewhat. Realize that a Tarptent, or any other similar brands are tarps, that have a bug liner.

daddytwosticks
02-03-2011, 08:34
I tried a tarptent years ago and it wasn't for me. 100's of folks who post here use and love these hybrid shelters with great luck. When needing reliable bug/rain-free shelter for ground sleeping, I use my Eureka Spitfire Solo. Trail ready (thin plastic footprint, ti stakes, non-original stuff sacks), it registers 3 pounds dead even on the scales. :)

Persistent
02-03-2011, 13:10
This misting issue is exactly what caused us to go with a specially coated, minimum 3500 mm H20 hydrostatic head sil-nylon on our standard gray tents (Solo and Duo). The material actually tested over 4000 mm H20 on the Suter Test device but was blown off the fabric holding mechanism by the high pressure and hadn't shown any leakage prior to that point.
Marc Penansky
LightHeart Gear

10-K
02-03-2011, 13:44
Some of these tent makers need to take trade-ins.... :)

Red Beard
02-03-2011, 14:32
Misting occurs with the tarptents because of big deluge type rain drops spraying condensation downwards. Thats why the only thing in my pack that isnt lightweight is the tent.

Agreed! The lightweight tents being discussed are for what they are, but I left the church of <insert lightweight tent here> a while ago.

Spokes
02-03-2011, 15:25
Some of these tent makers need to take trade-ins.... :)

There's always eBay 10-K

10-K
02-03-2011, 15:31
There's always eBay 10-K

I'll stick with the ol' Rainbow I reckon.

The misting isn't a deal breaker for me. Deluges like the one we were in the other night aren't terribly common and next time I'll know to be more selective with site selection.

Plus, I can buy a Skyscape from SMD in a few months and use the Rainbow as the extra single person tent I need when my son goes with me. :)

Singletrack
02-03-2011, 16:46
Here's some pertinent info you may find interesting from Wikipedia:

"Rain resistance is measured as a hydrostatic head in millimetres (mm). This indicates the pressure of water needed to penetrate a fabric. Heavy or wind-driven rain has a higher pressure than light rain. Standing on a groundsheet increases the pressure on any water underneath. Fabric with a hydrostatic head rating of 1000 mm or less is best regarded as shower resistant, with 1500 mm being usually suitable for summer camping. Tents for year-round use generally have at least 2000 mm; expedition tents intended for extreme conditions are often rated at 3000 mm. Where quoted, groundsheets may be rated for 5000 mm or more."


So, I went looking for my Hilleberg tent's rating and found the Kerlon 1800 silnylon fly has a 3,000 mm figure---and here's the best of all: The floor is 100 denier with a 7,000 mm rating.

This is why it is important to use a good ground cloth with a Tarptent. Water running under the bath tub floor, and you lying on this floor, can force water thru the bath tub floor, and it becoming wet out.

Franco
02-03-2011, 16:48
It's best not to set up a Tarptent out in the open, unless you are sure it is not going to rain

With all due respect that is absolute rubbish...
I have used my Tarptents (Contrail and Rainbow) under heavy rain many times, including under post monsoonal rain in Nepal and heavy damps in Tasmania as well here on our coast.
It just that a few minor spray don't make any difference for me.
In fact I left the Moment up recently for over a week in my backyard (I was showing the tent when it started raining and just kept raining for days ..) not a drop of rain inside after all of that.
See this video clip for example...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V3gKohpfCY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V3gKohpfCY)
Franco

TheChop
02-03-2011, 17:02
Plus, I can buy a Skyscape from SMD in a few months and use the Rainbow as the extra single person tent I need when my son goes with me. :)


The Skyscape looks pretty sick. It's not clear how the double/single walled hybrid thing works.

Franco
02-03-2011, 17:47
I had a couple of tents to pack up ready to be posted first thing this morning.
(I look after the Auistralian TT customers ...)
One of them was the third tent purchased by the same guy.
He has had a Squall for some time, bought a DR for (on behalf ?) of a mate and now just purchased a Sublite Sil for himself.
Only three days ago this particular customer asked me how come one of his mates Cloudburst had a lot of condensation during the night/morning when his Squall set up close to it hardly had any.
Now they were both camping next to a river, not an ideal place particularly on a cool still night, however just a meter or so above a low point can make the difference.
The most likly cause though was that the Cloudburst, as clearly demonstrated by the pics he sent me, was not set up correctly having the sides touching (limpy) the floor therefore stopping any possible air flow there.
The reason I am posting this is that obviously repeat customers are the strongest endorsement for the product, and BTW till this April I was also just a customer (having used them for 5 years at that point)
If the product in general did not work (and rain protection is definatelly included here...) the brand would have not kept growing over the close to ten years of business, after all the only advertising you get is from users.
It is also obvious that if a product is not used correctly it will not perform the same way as for someone that does know how to use it correctly.
The easiest way to know if you have pitched your tent correctly or not is to compare it with the official pictures.
If your set up does not look like that, you know where the problem is.
And that is true for just about any activity.
But of course a Tarptent, like any other tent, can be the best for one and the worst for another. Just like any backpack,sleeping bag, mat....

Franco

Singletrack
02-03-2011, 18:03
It's best not to set up a Tarptent out in the open, unless you are sure it is not going to rain

With all due respect that is absolute rubbish...
I have used my Tarptents (Contrail and Rainbow) under heavy rain many times, including under post monsoonal rain in Nepal and heavy damps in Tasmania as well here on our coast.
It just that a few minor spray don't make any difference for me.
In fact I left the Moment up recently for over a week in my backyard (I was showing the tent when it started raining and just kept raining for days ..) not a drop of rain inside after all of that.
See this video clip for example...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V3gKohpfCY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V3gKohpfCY)
Franco

Life is full of opinions, and experiences. Everyone has some of both. I have never been to Nepal, nor Tasmania. But, have had the same experience that the originator of this thread
started. And my experiences tell me, to take my tarptent back in the brush and trees when the big one is coming. Maybe the new one I just bought, I can camp in the open....but I doubt it.

Spokes
02-03-2011, 18:50
Q: Is silicone-impregnated ripstop nylon waterproof?.
A: Silicone impregnated ripstop nylon is waterproof within "normal operating conditions." In very heavy rain and high velocity wind-driven rain some extremely light interior misting is normal and equivalent to increased interior humidity.
- http://www.tarptent.com/faq.html

Am I the only one here that thinks it's funny to list "normal operating conditions" when talking about sil-nylon waterproof qualities?

It's like putting "normal operating conditions" on a tooth brush container.
Bizarre-o!

10-K
02-03-2011, 19:25
Am I the only one here that thinks it's funny to list "normal operating conditions" when talking about sil-nylon waterproof qualities?

It's like putting "normal operating conditions" on a tooth brush container.
Bizarre-o!

I've got one of those reflective windshield things that keep the car cool and there is a sticker on it that says, "WARNING: DO NOT USE WHILE DRIVING"

10-K
02-03-2011, 19:27
The easiest way to know if you have pitched your tent correctly or not is to compare it with the official pictures.
If your set up does not look like that, you know where the problem is.


Franco

Franco, I appreciate your experience with Tarptents (and tenting in general actually). But, I think Henry Shires himself could have pitched my tent and I still would have had the misting problem.

That this is mentioned in the FAQ on his website is evidence of that.

Franco
02-03-2011, 20:04
I don't disagree with that.
In fact several times over the years I have pointed out in various forums that indeed you can get misting by penetration and that I have done contradicting various TT owners that stated it never happens. (of course what they mean is that it never has happened to them...)
It does but only when the rain velocity (wind driven or large drops) is enough to do so , and that is seldom not all or most of the time...
Franco

Singletrack
02-03-2011, 20:50
By no means do I dislike Tarptents, it is just the opposite. I have really liked all of the 5 Tarptents that I have owned. I know their limitations, and how to use it. Tarptents have allowed me to enjoy hiking so much more, due to how light they are, and the ease to setting up. I would not go on any hike without one.

Camping Dave
02-05-2011, 22:22
I took my new TT Rainbow out on a 3 night hike this week and on the last night we were in one of those "howling winds, driving rain" storms on the side of a mountain.

One thing I noticed is that a fine mist seemed to somehow come through the tent walls - at first I thought it was my imagination but I put my headlight on and could see the reflections of the mist. It was almost like someone was spraying a flower mister every few minutes or something.

It wasn't devastating and nothing go seriously wet but in the morning everything in my tent was damp even though no rain entered the tent directly. Condensation was not an issue.

Is this something unique to Tarptents? I've been through some serious weather, including a tropical storm, in my Lunar Solo/Duo and have never experienced this before.

UL manufacturers frequently, ahem, exaggerate the worthiness of their products. This tent is one example: so called waterproof fabrics that can't take the pressure of a good rainstorm. And advertising a tent with a 38" wide floor as a 2 person. Who are they kidding? They could easily buy fabric with better waterproofing but that might add two ounces and eat $5 of profit. Oh My!

You can fix the leaking yourself by mixing outdoor silicone caulk and mineral spirits and painting your tent. It will cost about $6 and take an hour. If you buy UL gear, suck it up and invest the time. Or you can buy gear made to handle tough conditions.

Caulk and spirits painting works: I camped in December under my home-painted Campmor ultralight silnylon 10x12 tarp. 4 adults and 12 scouts. Pounding rain Saturday night. Guess who was dry in the morning: me, and the guy with the marine corps surplus 7 pound dome.

Franco
02-05-2011, 23:58
"advertising a tent with a 38" wide floor as a 2 person.Who are they kidding?
It appears that also some here are selective with their quoting...
The Rainbow is listed as a 1-2 (note not a 2...) person tent.
With the floor fully up it is about 38" wide , however you can drop the floor (you still have an inch or two of "bathtub" to accommodate 2x 20" mats without overlap.
This is for people that either occasionally have someone else or like a compact (small footprint) shelter.
As for the fabric it is not about the cost. When you add PU to silicone you lose tear strength and you can end up with the same problem people have with delaminating or sticky fabric.
as usual you choose your poison...
BTW, I just posted a thread with my Contrail taking 4" plus of water between 8PM and 8 AM, it was still dry inside.
Not the worst storm but a bit more than a "good rainstorm"
And just for the record there are several MSR as well as Sierra Design (amongst others ) tents with a 1000/1200mm waterhead rated fly...

Franco

RichardD
02-06-2011, 00:34
I too have had a couple of incidences of misting in the Rainbow during heavy storms. I accepted the explanation that it was condensation being shaken free by the impact of the rain/hail. Now I am not so sure.
I have been in all night rains in the tarptent when no wetness penetrated, it only seems to happen in very heavy thunderstorms.

ronmoak
02-06-2011, 01:58
" When you add PU to silicone you lose tear strength and you can end up with the same problem people have with delaminating or sticky fabric.
as usual you choose your poison...
Franco

It's not clear just where you received this little fact. It doesn't come from my supplier. I've noticed no difference in strength between the my current silnylon and the older pure silicone only version. Nor will the silnylon we use either, mold, mildew or delaminate.

Now there is some ultralight fabric that has silicone coating on one side and PU on the other. You frequently see this in silnylon products that are seam taped. The Sea to Summit dry bags are and example. From our research, this material is only available in overseas production. It also does have a lower tear strength than silicone only coating.

I don't know if it is subject to mold, mildew or delamination. But I do have my guess.

Ron

Singletrack
02-06-2011, 07:44
It would be helpful to the consumer, now that we are becoming educated on water proofness of silnylon, that each and every company post their waterproof ratings of their tents.

sir limpsalot
02-06-2011, 10:44
all the posts seem to blow right by lightheart gear's statement that the sil-nylon they use is almost triple the waterproofness of other tarpmaker's material. if this same sil-nylon is available to every maker....why wouldn't it be used by smd or tt ? what's the downside?

Franco
02-06-2011, 19:41
Hi Ron...
I re-read my comments last night and realised that they made sense to me when I wrote them but I can see now it was a pretty sloppy way to describe what I meant...
By writing "adding PU" I made it sound (unintentionally) that I was referring to the fly material you use , apparently the same as TT uses for the floor.
As you probably know it wasn't my desire to state that TT is using floor material that is likely to become sticky or mouldy, in fact I used this point in several threads were people only see the "downside" of silnylon overlooking the benefits.
What I was referring to (or meant to...) was actually the type of silnylon that has an undercoat of PU (IE not mixed with the silicone ) . I have a tent like that and seen felt several of the type and they all feel slightly "rubbery" to the touch, something I cannot detect on the TT floors.
As a matter of fact I have stored for days (and probably weeks with the Contrail) my TS with a wet or damp floor and after 5-6 years (with the Rainbow) there is no trace of mildew or any sticky feel to it.
So my comment was not about that...
At the same time having asked for some technical explanation from Roger Caffin, he has been very vocal in several discussions at BPL about the effect of PU coating/undercoating , I received this lengthy but possibly useful reply .
Roger quoting a small part of my questions :
> You have mentioned several times (as others also have) that a PU coating
> weakens a base fabric but silicone increases the tear strength of nylon.
Yes, but the comment has to be put into context. It applies to a
comparison between silnylon and PU-coated fabrics, where the terms
means specific things. I will try to explain.
Silnylon is a double-coated nylon fabric. During coating the polymer
has a low viscosity and wets out the fabric from both sides. It would
be as appropriate or more appropriate to call it impregnated. I often
suggest that you think of silnylon as a silicone polymer film which
has been reinforced with nylon fabric.
Classic PU-coated fabric means a fabric (nylon or otherwise) which has
a film of fairly high-viscosity polyurethane polymer coated onto one
surface of the fabric. The PU polymer is not embedded INTO the fabric:
it really only bonds to the surface of the threads.
When silnylon is stretched in a tear test the load goes into the
silicone polymer as well as into the threads at the point of tear, and
the polymer spreads the tension across multiple threads, rather than
leaving the load on the 'last' thread. For this reason we often find
that the tear strength of silnylon is higher than for the base nylon
fabric.
With a PU coating the action of the PU bonding to the surface of the
threads seems to localise the tension even more than in a bare fabric.
The strength of the PU coating seems to buffer surrounding threads
from the load. This leaves a PU-coated fabric often less
tear-resistant than the base fabric.
But all that is for traditional fabrics. Some of the newer coating
technologies have bypassed the limitations of traditional PU, by using
PU polymers with much lower viscosities which wet out the fabric.
Also, a way has been found of first coating one side of a light fabric
with silicone so it goes part-way into the fabric, then coating the
other side with low-viscosity PU so it too penetrates the fabric, to
the silicone layer. This is how we get what are called Silicone/PU
fabrics.
An advantage of the PU coating is that it has a higher pressure rating
than silicone. The latter is actually slightly porous. And you can
tape a PU face on the fabric as well. What we need is for a good
source of Si/PU fabrics, similar to the current source(s) for
silnylon. The fabric is actually available from several coating plants
in Asia, but they will only sell in 1,000 yd rolls. A peculiarly
Chinese mind-set problem.
In addition, people are also experimenting with co-polymer blends in
place of straight silicone (or siloxane). You can get anything you
want done in 10,000 yd rolls...
I would LOVE to get some light Si/PU fabric for my next tent .. REALLY!
Cheers
Roger Caffin (PhD)
Senior Editor for Technology
Online Community Manager
Backpacking Light

Part of the problem ,I perceive , with several of the comments at BPL from the resident "experts" (apart from Roger...) is that some material referred to as "silnylon" may not be anything like the sil we are discussing here but just nylon mislabelled by some vendors, in a similar way people discuss Cuben, Spinnaker and even Tyvek when there are many versions of each.

So, sorry if I have given the wrong impression but I hope this clears that up.
Franco

HeartFire
02-06-2011, 20:41
LightHeart Gear does state the waterproof rating of our fabrics on the Specs page.

"Standard gray Solos have been manufactured for us using a different sil-nylon than the custom tents. The gray fabric in these tents has a higher waterproof rating than the Cordura® brand fabrics I use to make custom tents. The manufactured tents have a waterproof rating of 3500mm of water, the colored fabrics have a rating of 1000mm water. Both fabrics are highly waterproof, but all sil-nylon can mist under some conditions"

Judy - LightHeart Gear

Camping Dave
02-06-2011, 23:12
all the posts seem to blow right by lightheart gear's statement that the sil-nylon they use is almost triple the waterproofness of other tarpmaker's material. if this same sil-nylon is available to every maker....why wouldn't it be used by smd or tt ? what's the downside?

Profit. But Franco will probably have another14 paragraph post, this time about how material selection doesn't affect profit, another 14 paragraphs of excuses and justification that nobody has enough time to read.

ronmoak
02-07-2011, 11:57
Profit. But Franco will probably have another14 paragraph post, this time about how material selection doesn't affect profit, another 14 paragraphs of excuses and justification that nobody has enough time to read.

Short and sweet. The silnylon available from US mills does not have the same degree of coating as silnylon available overseas. If they did, everyone would be using higher rated fabric.

Bottom line a foreign sourced tent will have a higher rating than on sourced and produced in the US.

Ron

Singletrack
02-07-2011, 13:14
Short and sweet. The silnylon available from US mills does not have the same degree of coating as silnylon available overseas. If they did, everyone would be using higher rated fabric.

Bottom line a foreign sourced tent will have a higher rating than on sourced and produced in the US.

Ron

Thanks Ron, Interesting. So we have TT at 1200mm, Lightheart at 3500mm. What would be the rating of say, your new Skyway? By the way it looks nice.

ronmoak
02-07-2011, 14:05
Singletrack,

The Skyscape canopy will be 2000+ mm rating. I found some 3000+ rated material however, according to my manufacture, there are still some quality issues with the higher rated stuff. So even though it has a higher rating and lower cost, we're staying with the proven fabric.

For those who haven't figured it out. The Skyscape will be produced overseas. It's our first overseas product. For the last 10 years we've used a single domestic source for production. I still plan to keep most of our production in the US. However, we've reached a point where it's playing Russian Roulette to rely on a single vendor. If something happened to them, we be totally out of business within a few months.

Its been a hard but necessary decision to move some of production offshore. I've resisted it as long as possible. I'd love to see more production capacity in the US, regrettably it's just not there.

Ron

10-K
02-07-2011, 14:17
LightHeart Gear does state the waterproof rating of our fabrics on the Specs page.

"Standard gray Solos have been manufactured for us using a different sil-nylon than the custom tents. The gray fabric in these tents has a higher waterproof rating than the Cordura® brand fabrics I use to make custom tents. The manufactured tents have a waterproof rating of 3500mm of water, the colored fabrics have a rating of 1000mm water. Both fabrics are highly waterproof, but all sil-nylon can mist under some conditions"

Judy - LightHeart Gear


Judy - are your manufactured tents produced offshore?

10-K
02-07-2011, 14:18
Singletrack,

The Skyscape canopy will be 2000+ mm rating. I found some 3000+ rated material however, according to my manufacture, there are still some quality issues with the higher rated stuff. So even though it has a higher rating and lower cost, we're staying with the proven fabric.

For those who haven't figured it out. The Skyscape will be produced overseas. It's our first overseas product. For the last 10 years we've used a single domestic source for production. I still plan to keep most of our production in the US. However, we've reached a point where it's playing Russian Roulette to rely on a single vendor. If something happened to them, we be totally out of business within a few months.

Its been a hard but necessary decision to move some of production offshore. I've resisted it as long as possible. I'd love to see more production capacity in the US, regrettably it's just not there.

Ron

I hate to hear that Ron... one of the (many) reasons I like to purchase from guys like you is because of the "Made in USA" factor.

Singletrack
02-07-2011, 14:20
Singletrack,

The Skyscape canopy will be 2000+ mm rating. I found some 3000+ rated material however, according to my manufacture, there are still some quality issues with the higher rated stuff. So even though it has a higher rating and lower cost, we're staying with the proven fabric.

For those who haven't figured it out. The Skyscape will be produced overseas. It's our first overseas product. For the last 10 years we've used a single domestic source for production. I still plan to keep most of our production in the US. However, we've reached a point where it's playing Russian Roulette to rely on a single vendor. If something happened to them, we be totally out of business within a few months.

Its been a hard but necessary decision to move some of production offshore. I've resisted it as long as possible. I'd love to see more production capacity in the US, regrettably it's just not there.

Ron

From your pictures, it appears that the Skyscape is a double wall shelter, with the fly, and the completly mesh inner wall. Is this correct?

sir limpsalot
02-07-2011, 15:30
Ron, I appreciate the move to a higher quality source. made in the U.S. loyalty shouldn't be a sacrifice made in the level of performance. People may gripe at this type of switch, but the competion may well spur U.S. manufacturer's to step up their game...much like japanese cars entering the market. all things being equal, or even slightly more expensive, i'll by american: but american buyers should never have to settle for an inferior product. i, for one, don't figure i'd be real happy getting wet in my american made tent made from lower quality materials.

ronmoak
02-07-2011, 16:09
From your pictures, it appears that the Skyscape is a double wall shelter, with the fly, and the completly mesh inner wall. Is this correct?

The Skyscape is not a true double wall tent. The center canopy panel is a single piece of fabric. Over 80% of the canopy is seperated by an interior wall.

10-K
02-07-2011, 16:21
Ron, I appreciate the move to a higher quality source. made in the U.S. loyalty shouldn't be a sacrifice made in the level of performance. People may gripe at this type of switch, but the competion may well spur U.S. manufacturer's to step up their game...much like japanese cars entering the market. all things being equal, or even slightly more expensive, i'll by american: but american buyers should never have to settle for an inferior product. i, for one, don't figure i'd be real happy getting wet in my american made tent made from lower quality materials.

If I'm not mistaken the Lunar Solo and Duo are made in the USA and I've never gotten wet in them and Ron himself has said in this thread that with the silnylon he's using now he hasn't had any reports of misting.

I absolutely would say without a doubt buying a "Made in USA" Lunar Solo and Duo is not settling for an inferior product.

sir limpsalot
02-07-2011, 16:43
If I'm not mistaken the Lunar Solo and Duo are made in the USA and I've never gotten wet in them and Ron himself has said in this thread that with the silnylon he's using now he hasn't had any reports of misting.

I absolutely would say without a doubt buying a "Made in USA" Lunar Solo and Duo is not settling for an inferior product.



All things being equal, and I've already posted asking for downsides to the 3500mm fabric and recieved no responses, more waterproof = superior :D

garbanz
02-07-2011, 16:46
I just mailed my Moment back to Henry. He said he would "Mist-Proof" it. Chances are he would do the same for you 10-K. Tarptent has an excellent customer service reputation similar to ULA and their line of packs. I, too spaced out Tarptent's admitted caveat about "wind driven rain" otherwise ....Next time Ill read the fine print.

Bags4266
02-07-2011, 16:50
This thread will open up pandora's box with people wanting to return their tents to Henry for "Mist-proofing". Me being one of them due to getting soaked, not misted.

10-K
02-07-2011, 16:51
I just mailed my Moment back to Henry. He said he would "Mist-Proof" it. Chances are he would do the same for you 10-K. Tarptent has an excellent customer service reputation similar to ULA and their line of packs. I, too spaced out Tarptent's admitted caveat about "wind driven rain" otherwise ....Next time Ill read the fine print.

That's interesting..

Did he say what he was going to do to mist proof it?

Singletrack
02-07-2011, 16:53
If I'm not mistaken the Lunar Solo and Duo are made in the USA and I've never gotten wet in them and Ron himself has said in this thread that with the silnylon he's using now he hasn't had any reports of misting.

I absolutely would say without a doubt buying a "Made in USA" Lunar Solo and Duo is not settling for an inferior product.

10K, I think what Ron is saying that it is sort of like playing Russian roulette not to have other sources, if he were to loose his USA sources. And to stay in business, and be competitive, he probably needs to obtain newer types of silnylon. I really like Made in the USA., but I can see where he and others are coming from. Imagine, walking into Walmart and purchasing some type of tarptent, made in China, for half the price. I would not want to see that.

Sassafras Lass
02-07-2011, 17:28
Waiting for Henry to pop by and reply to all of you . . . . .

I'm nervous of my Double Rainbow for a completely different reason - both hubby and I are - ahem - overweight to some degree or another - hopefully the DB will prove more spacious as we shrink away on our thru! :p

According to those who know, would it be advisable to use the seam sealer over the entire panels of the tent walls?

10-K
02-07-2011, 18:16
This thread will open up pandora's box with people wanting to return their tents to Henry for "Mist-proofing". Me being one of them due to getting soaked, not misted.

Should be interesting...

I wouldn't think it would be free though - or at least I would expect to pay a reasonable fee including shipping both ways.

The misting info is right there on his website for all to see.

Whatever treatment he's going to apply I'd be willing to bet it's something that could be done by the owner at home.

Bags4266
02-07-2011, 18:18
10-K that is what I was thinking you probally could buy the $5. can of sil spray and save yourself the postage.

10-K
02-07-2011, 18:20
10K, I think what Ron is saying that it is sort of like playing Russian roulette not to have other sources, if he were to loose his USA sources. And to stay in business, and be competitive, he probably needs to obtain newer types of silnylon. I really like Made in the USA., but I can see where he and others are coming from. Imagine, walking into Walmart and purchasing some type of tarptent, made in China, for half the price. I would not want to see that.

There was a thread not too long ago about buying hiking gear made in the USA and of the list, at least 2 now that I know of is (or will be soon) outsourcing production to China.

Now, I'm a realist and have a rudimentary understanding of the economic reasoning behind the decision to outsource but I think when you essentially become a shipper of your own product instead of the manufacturer you lose claim to "Made in USA" status.

Singletrack
02-07-2011, 18:35
If anyone finds out what he does to Mist Proof a Tarptent, please post it here. I would like to do my own.

ronmoak
02-07-2011, 19:01
Atsko sells a product Water-Guard Extreme (http://www.fntpost.com/Products/Boot+Care+Repair/Atsko+Silicone+Water-Guard+Extreme+(12+oz.+Spray) for 5.95 that we've used to help recondition older tents. It's easy to use. Just make sure to thourghly clean your tent before using.

garbanz
02-07-2011, 20:15
That's interesting..

Did he say what he was going to do to mist proof it?

Nope. If he reads this thread he'll probably piss on it! lol

10-K
02-07-2011, 20:34
I just got a reply from Henry Shires regarding how they mist proof their tents. Seems very simple and I'm going to get right on it. :)

Hi Thomas,

We wipe the tent with Atsko Silicone water guard (2 coats letting the tarptent dry between coats).

http://www.atsko.com/products/waterproofing/silicone-water-guard.html

Thanks,
Henry

garbanz
02-07-2011, 20:56
Great. We're dealin with good people here who will do a double back flip to help if informed there's a problem with their gear. Only thing is I tend to get po'ed is something doesnt set up outta the box.

10-K
02-07-2011, 21:06
Great. We're dealin with good people here who will do a double back flip to help if informed there's a problem with their gear. Only thing is I tend to get po'ed is something doesnt set up outta the box.

Well, the misting isn't considered a defect - it's a known property of the material used to make the tent.

Based on the popularity of Tarptents I'd say that people either know about it and accept it or don't know about it and haven't experienced the misting - or maybe they attribute it to rain knocking condensation off the tent wall - who knows?

I'm going to treat mine and move on. :)

Big Dawg
02-07-2011, 21:20
I just got a reply from Henry Shires regarding how they mist proof their tents. Seems very simple and I'm going to get right on it. :)

Hi Thomas,

We wipe the tent with Atsko Silicone water guard (2 coats letting the tarptent dry between coats).

http://www.atsko.com/products/waterproofing/silicone-water-guard.html

Thanks,
Henry



I wonder how much weight that would add to a tent,,,, a few ounces I would assume.

Singletrack
02-07-2011, 21:33
Well, the misting isn't considered a defect - it's a known property of the material used to make the tent.

Based on the popularity of Tarptents I'd say that people either know about it and accept it or don't know about it and haven't experienced the misting - or maybe they attribute it to rain knocking condensation off the tent wall - who knows?

I'm going to treat mine and move on. :)

Same here, I have known about the misting, before buying. I like Tarptents, and learned the hard way, to find a spot back in the woods that would deflect hard wind driven rain. This helps alot in most cases.
I guess you just spray it on a rag, and wipe it on?

10-K
02-07-2011, 21:43
I guess you just spray it on a rag, and wipe it on?

I've ordered 2 cans of the spray stuff and will probably set it up in freestanding mode in the basement and spray it directly on the tent.

I'm going to do 2 coats, 24 hours apart.

HeartFire
02-08-2011, 22:33
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; } 10K - Sorry I didn't see your question. (I've been busy sewing). My manufactured tents are made in China. When my business got to the point that I just couldn't sew fast enough, I went about looking for a place to have them made. It is very difficult to find out this stuff. People that have similar business can be very tight lipped and refuse to tell you their sources for materials, services etc. I don't quite understand why this is, but that's the way it is. I searched and searched, found one or two places in the states, but the quality from these places was not up to my standards (it was pretty lousy). I finally did hit on a very reliable manufacturer with a very good reputation that is quite close to me geographically, They were very interested in manufacturing the tents, but to have them made here they would have charged me 3 times what you are now paying for the tent. That's just not acceptable economics. They also wanted much much larger minimums than I could afford. I would have loved to have had them made here, but American companies make it very difficult for the small entrepreneurs to get small quantities. The minimums are so large that it makes it almost impossible for the small company to get what they need. I am working on some group buys with other small companies to get the products I need, but that too is a big hassle.


So, this somewhat local company suggested they send the tent to be made in China, they have had a
long standing relationship with this factory, and the work is impeccable and they have fair trade practices. I have actually contracted with an American company for my tents to be manufactured, they outsourced them (with my permission) to China.


We went with the 3500mm hydrostatic head silnylon fabric rather than the 2000mm fabric because of the higher quality of the fabric. The 2000mm fabric would have cost me a lot less money, (and I would have charged you the same - the prices were set from when I started making them) but I wanted a better tent, so I went with the better fabric and am making a lower profit. There is no quality issue at all with my fabric, I have all the lab reports and pressure testing reports (with photographs of it). The sewing of
the tents from China is quite honestly better than what I do - but then, they have a lot of different sewing equipment than I have.


The legalities in regards to things saying they are “made in America”; To put a label on a product that says “made in the USA” it must be made of American made fabrics, and sewn here. If it is sewn here but from imported fabrics, it can have a label “Made in the USA of imported fabrics” - it's easy enough to look up these laws on line. I make all the custom tents mysef and they have both a “Cordura” label and a “made in the USA” (flag) label. I had to apply to Cordura's parent company to get the labels and tags. (Cordura does make some fabrics in overseas locations, so not all Cordura brands are US fabrics).

sir limpsalot
02-08-2011, 23:15
why, with such a small niche product, are the makers of such unique designs not collaberating on the one key material that is essential to each, yet not the buyer's main decider in picking between them? a co-op buying decision would provide a quality key ingredient to each designer at a reasonable price. the end result would overcome one main objection that buyers have- "misting". no one buys a tarp shelter because they admire one fabric over another: it's about the design. for the same reason you never here a tent buyer say " i bought a msr over a big agnes because it was more waterproof", this would overcome a common objection in the UL shelter potential buyer: "it really won't keep me dry". ron states he and henry buy from the same supplier; if more cottage manufacturers pitched in for a higher-end material.....the consumer would truely be able to make a confident decision to buy a tarptent based on its real benefits.

sir limpsalot
02-08-2011, 23:47
Can you sense my frustration here? I WANT A TARPTENT! but i don't want to settle! i want a smaller shelter in my pack: i use trekking poles, i don't need to carry tent poles. i want a reasonably small footprint. the current designs out on the market are great. i'm willing to give up freestanding to get a 2# shelter. but, and i don't think i'm being unreasonable here, I DON'T WANT TO GET WET IN MY TENT WHEN IT RAINS OUT! i don't want to have to wake up and sponge my tent every few hours. i don't want to have to have a waterproof sleeping bag. and, to be honest, i don't want to have to seam-seal my new tent. i mean, ***, do you seam seal your new raincoat? roof your new house yourself? caulk your new boat yourself? comeon !
At 3500mm(and i'd wager even better is avail.), if lightheart gear's gray solo was big enough, i'd buy it in a minute (and pay the extra to have it sealed) . i see so many terrific tarp shelters out there, but the basic requirement of staying dry can't be provided with assurance. i can't be alone here, lurking in the wings...waiting for a better product.

Cedar Tree
02-09-2011, 05:56
10K - Sorry I didn't see your question. (I've been busy sewing). My manufactured tents are made in China. When my business got to the point that I just couldn't sew fast enough, I went about looking for a place to have them made. It is very difficult to find out this stuff. People that have similar business can be very tight lipped and refuse to tell you their sources for materials, services etc. I don't quite understand why this is, but that's the way it is. I searched and searched, found one or two places in the states, but the quality from these places was not up to my standards (it was pretty lousy). I finally did hit on a very reliable manufacturer with a very good reputation that is quite close to me geographically, They were very interested in manufacturing the tents, but to have them made here they would have charged me 3 times what you are now paying for the tent. That's just not acceptable economics. They also wanted much much larger minimums than I could afford. I would have loved to have had them made here, but American companies make it very difficult for the small entrepreneurs to get small quantities. The minimums are so large that it makes it almost impossible for the small company to get what they need. I am working on some group buys with other small companies to get the products I need, but that too is a big hassle. ).


Thanks for the explanation Judy. I could not have said it better myself. I had 2 US companies manufacture the Packa before I signed on with Big Agnes. My sales have long surpassed my sewing capability. The price for me is not a huge difference. Its a little cheaper made in China, but not that much. However, the quality is infinitely better. Plus, the customer service is infinitely better too. Although BA handles everything for me, I do deal directly with the manufacturer in China when I need to make a change or have an issue. Response from China is always quick and polite, very much UNLIKE what I used to have to endure with my former US supplier. Like Judy said, I feel I did all I could to stay US made. But the quality was lousy and the customer service was horrible too. I am very happy with Big Agnes. I still do modifications to the Packa myself.
Cedar Tree

mark schofield
02-09-2011, 07:45
I've had really good luck with my Contrail the last few years. Been in some fairly heavy rains (although in some wooded areas). The tent walls have sagged and misted a bit but not dripped on me (yet). However There must be a natural degradation of the material over time so I think I'll treat it with the silicone spray product before the start of this spring hiking season. It will probably add a few ounces..

10-K
02-09-2011, 07:59
Can you sense my frustration here? I WANT A TARPTENT! but i don't want to settle! i want a smaller shelter in my pack: i use trekking poles, i don't need to carry tent poles. i want a reasonably small footprint. the current designs out on the market are great. i'm willing to give up freestanding to get a 2# shelter. but, and i don't think i'm being unreasonable here, I DON'T WANT TO GET WET IN MY TENT WHEN IT RAINS OUT! i don't want to have to wake up and sponge my tent every few hours. i don't want to have to have a waterproof sleeping bag. and, to be honest, i don't want to have to seam-seal my new tent. i mean, ***, do you seam seal your new raincoat? roof your new house yourself? caulk your new boat yourself? comeon !
At 3500mm(and i'd wager even better is avail.), if lightheart gear's gray solo was big enough, i'd buy it in a minute (and pay the extra to have it sealed) . i see so many terrific tarp shelters out there, but the basic requirement of staying dry can't be provided with assurance. i can't be alone here, lurking in the wings...waiting for a better product.

Well, you're talking about a few different things here...

IMO, a singlewall tent should come with a sponge. :) You can't escape condensation unless you stop breathing. Every once in a while I'll get lucky and conditions will be just right and there will be very little or none but that's pretty rare.

With regards to the misting, I'm in semi-agreement with you. I would not knowingly buy a shelter that had this issue. But, now that I have, I've found a way to deal with it which addresses the problem so that problem is solved.

I guess I got lucky if you want to call it that. The storm we were in was intense... I could have used my Rainbow for a long time without every even being aware of the misting characteristic so I don't expect it to be a big problem anyway.

sir limpsalot
02-09-2011, 08:34
Well, you're talking about a few different things here...
with regards to the misting, I'm in semi-agreement with you. I would not knowingly buy a shelter that had this issue.

just wanted to talk about the 800# gorilla in the thread.
up till reading this thread i had always assumed that the best sil-nylon on the market was being used and the the weaknesses of the product in regards to waterproofness were inherent. now, listening to some key players, it seems that there is superior syl-nylon....it's just not financially or ethically feasible for small manufacturers to use. i hope that this can be overcome. as a consumer, this would make a huge difference in my decisions.

Singletrack
02-09-2011, 08:40
Can you sense my frustration here? I WANT A TARPTENT! but i don't want to settle! i want a smaller shelter in my pack: i use trekking poles, i don't need to carry tent poles. i want a reasonably small footprint. the current designs out on the market are great. i'm willing to give up freestanding to get a 2# shelter. but, and i don't think i'm being unreasonable here, I DON'T WANT TO GET WET IN MY TENT WHEN IT RAINS OUT! i don't want to have to wake up and sponge my tent every few hours. i don't want to have to have a waterproof sleeping bag. and, to be honest, i don't want to have to seam-seal my new tent. i mean, ***, do you seam seal your new raincoat? roof your new house yourself? caulk your new boat yourself? comeon !
At 3500mm(and i'd wager even better is avail.), if lightheart gear's gray solo was big enough, i'd buy it in a minute (and pay the extra to have it sealed) . i see so many terrific tarp shelters out there, but the basic requirement of staying dry can't be provided with assurance. i can't be alone here, lurking in the wings...waiting for a better product.

I think many would agree. I do not know what the magic number is that would eliminate you getting wet, and not having to sponge down tent walls every rain storm. I am sure there are other factors. But compared to other tent makers, such as MSR and Big Agnes, 3500mm exceeds them. As far as the size of the Lightheart, they look huge to me. Especially the 2 person tent. They are double wall tents, and maybe this would help in controlling condensation. Just a thought.

10-K
02-09-2011, 08:57
Just to reiterate - the condensation issue in a single wall tent isn't because of the type of silnylon used.

The misting however is and can be solved if the right material is used.

I would like to know the logic behind knowingly using a material that is subject to the misting problem. What was achieved by making this sacrifice?

Singletrack
02-09-2011, 09:18
Just to reiterate - the condensation issue in a single wall tent isn't because of the type of silnylon used.

The misting however is and can be solved if the right material is used.

I would like to know the logic behind knowingly using a material that is subject to the misting problem. What was achieved by making this sacrifice?

Now, this is just a guess on my part. Go back a number of posts and reread the post by the poster from Australia. Where he asks questions to an expert over at BPL. The interviewee stated in essence, from what I can decipher, that there are better forms of silnylon, that are in Asia, that can only be purchased in 10,000 yd. rolls. He stated he would like for his next tent to be made from it.
I suggest, that maybe it is difficult, if not expensive to obtain this different and better silnylon. And possibly, it just became available. Again, I am just guessing.

sir limpsalot
02-09-2011, 19:30
I think many would agree. I do not know what the magic number is that would eliminate you getting wet, and not having to sponge down tent walls every rain storm. I am sure there are other factors. But compared to other tent makers, such as MSR and Big Agnes, 3500mm exceeds them. As far as the size of the Lightheart, they look huge to me. Especially the 2 person tent. They are double wall tents, and maybe this would help in controlling condensation. Just a thought.

-digging into big agnes fabric lore: they designed a proprietary tight woven sil-nylon with a bonded 1200mm pu coating for the copper spur series....don't know what the over-all hydrostatic head is, but i'll bet it's alot.
-the lightheart solo's a little small for me on a 2.5" pad. duo's too big a footprint for what i want
- condensation should be a considered factor when selecting a shelter design....i'm just complaining about the pourosity.

FamilyGuy
02-09-2011, 21:12
The BA tents have a hydrostatic head of 1200mm. However, PU coating tends to be more waterproof than comparable silnylon over prolonged rain. With the silnylon, the water will eventually saturate the silicon polymer - i.e. it is micro porous. This commentary is based on testing done by Roger Caffin over at BPL.com.

Because the BA tents are double walled, there is also the possibility that the mesh inner wall does stop some minute misting from entering the tent....

FamilyGuy
02-10-2011, 11:43
One other thing, there is an interesting discussion going on over at BPL.com that continues on, in many ways, from this discussion. Have a look:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=42687

Sierra Echo
02-11-2011, 00:54
The misting issue is interesting. Other then that, would you guys recommend a tarptent to someone?

FamilyGuy
02-11-2011, 01:36
The misting issue is interesting. Other then that, would you guys recommend a tarptent to someone?

Yes. Because despite what has been discussed above, it doesn't seem to happen for everyone or for some all the time. What you get is a very light, fully bug proof shelter and for many, any issues with 'misting' are acceptable.

skinewmexico
02-11-2011, 01:57
It's not like you get misting every time the sky gets cloudy. Geez, what a bunch of whiners.

FamilyGuy
02-11-2011, 11:39
Exactly. Although I get a little Misty when it rains....

skinewmexico
02-11-2011, 12:08
That BPL thread is pretty interesting; kind of alternates between some incredibly detailed testing and manufacturing data, and the typical forum pissing contest. I think I know more about silnylon and the physics of raindrops than I ever wanted to.

FamilyGuy
02-11-2011, 12:14
Yeah - it kind of went sideways. Some people believe that there were 'shots' taken at particular manufacturers but really it wasn't. More to understand the fabrics that are used in the products that we are buying.

Silnylon from the US seems to work just fine for 95% of the applications I use it. Because it is what is used by most cottage manufacturers it will continue to be what I use. I am willing to sacrifice some weatherproofing for the weight in some circumstances. In others, I am not.

bigcranky
02-11-2011, 12:21
The misting issue is interesting. Other then that, would you guys recommend a tarptent to someone?

Yes. I've been using Tarptent brand tarp tents since 2004, four different models, plenty of nights in the field in very bad weather. I've had the "misting" thing happen one time, and that was the worst thunderstorm and heaviest rain I have ever seen. The misting was not any sort of a serious problem that night.

10-K
02-11-2011, 12:37
The misting issue is interesting. Other then that, would you guys recommend a tarptent to someone?

That is a very good question. Would I recommend one..... hmmm.....

Probably not.

Not because I have an axe to grind with Tarptent and not because the tent isn't well designed.

All things being equal, and given that there are tents that don't mist that weigh in the same range I'd recommend something else.

I would love to have a TT Rainbow made out of the same silnylon as my Lunar Solo/Duo.

FWIW, I wouldn't recommend a Chevrolet to anyone either so it's not like my opinion really carries a lot of weight anyway.

FamilyGuy
02-11-2011, 12:59
That is a very good question. Would I recommend one..... hmmm.....

Probably not.

Not because I have an axe to grind with Tarptent and not because the tent isn't well designed.

All things being equal, and given that there are tents that don't mist that weigh in the same range I'd recommend something else.

I would love to have a TT Rainbow made out of the same silnylon as my Lunar Solo/Duo.

FWIW, I wouldn't recommend a Chevrolet to anyone either so it's not like my opinion really carries a lot of weight anyway.

I think everyone's opinion matters.

I take it you have never had misting with your Solo? How does your Solo compare to the Rainbow overall? Why did you also get a Rainbow? Thanks,

Singletrack
02-11-2011, 13:34
Yes. I've been using Tarptent brand tarp tents since 2004, four different models, plenty of nights in the field in very bad weather. I've had the "misting" thing happen one time, and that was the worst thunderstorm and heaviest rain I have ever seen. The misting was not any sort of a serious problem that night.
Getting a little misty eyed reading this thread. LOL
I am like you, I have been using Tarptent for a number of years. They are well designed, and sewn superbly. But I have had misting a number of times. And, wetting out, getting everything wet inside. These were all in severe thunder storms, with high winds.
I think for those that have never experienced the wetting out, should go down to Georgia next month, and hike to Katahdin. I bet it will wet out, before you get to Erwin. And, no fair staying in a shelter. The longer you stay out on the trail, the better chance of it happening.

10-K
02-11-2011, 13:35
I think everyone's opinion matters.

I take it you have never had misting with your Solo? How does your Solo compare to the Rainbow overall? Why did you also get a Rainbow? Thanks,

I've spent a few months in my Lunar Solo and have never experienced any type of misting. I've probably spent an equal amount of time in my Duo - also with no misting.

I'm 6'2" and the solo is just too small. The duo is a super shelter but it's just a bit more than I want to carry for a solo shelter.

The TT Rainbow is a great design and has more than enough room and that's why I bought it. I did not read the FAQ on the TT website.

The stuff that Ron Moak recommended to treat the tent came yesterday so I'm expecting to solve the misting issue and live happily ever after. :) (I also verified with Henry Shires that the stuff would work before I ordered it)

Singletrack
02-11-2011, 14:00
I've spent a few months in my Lunar Solo and have never experienced any type of misting. I've probably spent an equal amount of time in my Duo - also with no misting.

I'm 6'2" and the solo is just too small. The duo is a super shelter but it's just a bit more than I want to carry for a solo shelter.

The TT Rainbow is a great design and has more than enough room and that's why I bought it. I did not read the FAQ on the TT website.

The stuff that Ron Moak recommended to treat the tent came yesterday so I'm expecting to solve the misting issue and live happily ever after. :) (I also verified with Henry Shires that the stuff would work before I ordered it)

What did the instructions on the Atsko can say? Did it mention preventing misting on Silnylon?

skinewmexico
02-11-2011, 16:22
It was my understanding from Rom Moak, at least a year ago, that SMD and TT used the same silnylon. Maybe I'm confused, or maybe Henry told me that. At some point, I'm going to mix a light batch of seam sealer, and paint the horizontal surface of a Tarptent to see what that does. Shouldn't add much weight. Can't look any worse than the seam-sealing SMD did on my Lunar Solo.

10-K
02-11-2011, 16:52
It was my understanding from Rom Moak, at least a year ago, that SMD and TT used the same silnylon. Maybe I'm confused, or maybe Henry told me that. At some point, I'm going to mix a light batch of seam sealer, and paint the horizontal surface of a Tarptent to see what that does. Shouldn't add much weight. Can't look any worse than the seam-sealing SMD did on my Lunar Solo.

Ron said in a recent thread that TT and SMD uses the same silnylon for the floor but a different one for the walls. The silnylon SMD uses, according to Ron, hasn't had any complaints of misting.

I guess you could do a search on his username for the particulars - it's been within the last week or so.

Singletrack
02-11-2011, 17:04
It was my understanding from Rom Moak, at least a year ago, that SMD and TT used the same silnylon. Maybe I'm confused, or maybe Henry told me that. At some point, I'm going to mix a light batch of seam sealer, and paint the horizontal surface of a Tarptent to see what that does. Shouldn't add much weight. Can't look any worse than the seam-sealing SMD did on my Lunar Solo.

Before I painted anything on your Tarptent, I would read a post over at BPL. An expert, I assume, stated that you should mix it like 5 to 1 ratio, and paint the inner walls. I wish I could direct you to that post, but it will take me sometime to find it again.

ronmoak
02-11-2011, 17:14
It was my understanding from Rom Moak, at least a year ago, that SMD and TT used the same silnylon. Maybe I'm confused, or maybe Henry told me that.

All I know for sure is that Henry and I purchase our silnylon from the same source. They carry a couple of different versions of the fabric with different coatings. The one we use has some PU mixed into the silicone. I have no idea about what Henry uses in his shelters.

If you want to know the what or why about Tarptents fabric selections, please ask him. All I can say is that I'm much more confident in the silnylon we're using today vs. what has been available in the past.

FamilyGuy
02-11-2011, 17:26
Ron - thanks again for posting. Are you using the WestMark UltraSil with the urethane mixed into the treatment? I think it is the 1.5 oz per sq yard? I am under the believe that the hydrostatic head for this product is about 3000mm and should limit most cases of misting.

walkin' wally
02-11-2011, 18:21
I've ordered 2 cans of the spray stuff and will probably set it up in freestanding mode in the basement and spray it directly on the tent.

I'm going to do 2 coats, 24 hours apart.

Is there a HI-Lo temperature parameter regarding when the mist proofing can be applied?

10-K
02-11-2011, 19:44
Is there a HI-Lo temperature parameter regarding when the mist proofing can be applied?

It doesn't say anything on the can...

sir limpsalot
02-12-2011, 09:32
Ron - thanks again for posting. Are you using the WestMark UltraSil with the urethane mixed into the treatment? I think it is the 1.5 oz per sq yard? I am under the believe that the hydrostatic head for this product is about 3000mm and should limit most cases of misting.


nice find on the specs David. Ron, is this the fabric? if not- what makes it undersirable for the application? this fabric certainly seems superior, strictly judging by HH, why wouldn't it by the material of choice?

ronmoak
02-12-2011, 12:17
nice find on the specs David. Ron, is this the fabric? if not- what makes it undersirable for the application? this fabric certainly seems superior, strictly judging by HH, why wouldn't it by the material of choice?

First off, I'm not aware of any domestic silnylon with a 3000 mm coating. That includes Westmark.

Second for propriety reasons, I don't release the internal names of fabrics we purchase from our suppliers. I hope you can respect that.

Third, I think you'll find that most people using our shelters have been happy about their rain resistance, even in the nastiest weather.

Finally, there are lots of factors involved in selecting a fabric. These include, but are not limited to:
1) Tear strength - this is the pounds of force required to tear the fabric along both the warp and weave direction.
2) Stretch of the fabric - different coatings can significantly affect how much a fabric will stretch along different axis. This can be critical in complex designs.
3) Water Resistance - enough said
4) Price - this is the single biggest cost in the production of a tent. Silnylon is not cheap and there has been a significant price increase recently.
4) Color availability - Unless you can buy enough for a dye lot. Then you can get any color you want.
5) Difficulty in assembly - As many aspiring MYOG sewers have discovered, sewing silnylon is not always easy. Plus professional sewers don't have the luxury of little tricks to aid their sewing, like pinning two pieces of fabric together for alignment before sewing them.

sir limpsalot
02-12-2011, 15:26
First off, I'm not aware of any domestic silnylon with a 3000 mm coating. That includes Westmark.

Second for propriety reasons, I don't release the internal names of fabrics we purchase from our suppliers. I hope you can respect that.

Third, I think you'll find that most people using our shelters have been happy about their rain resistance, even in the nastiest weather.

Finally, there are lots of factors involved in selecting a fabric. These include, but are not limited to:
1) Tear strength - this is the pounds of force required to tear the fabric along both the warp and weave direction.
2) Stretch of the fabric - different coatings can significantly affect how much a fabric will stretch along different axis. This can be critical in complex designs.
3) Water Resistance - enough said
4) Price - this is the single biggest cost in the production of a tent. Silnylon is not cheap and there has been a significant price increase recently.
4) Color availability - Unless you can buy enough for a dye lot. Then you can get any color you want.
5) Difficulty in assembly - As many aspiring MYOG sewers have discovered, sewing silnylon is not always easy. Plus professional sewers don't have the luxury of little tricks to aid their sewing, like pinning two pieces of fabric together for alignment before sewing them.

First off: thank you Ron, Judy,Franco, and anyone else i didn't recognize from a maker of tarp shelters who participated here. We often see your informative posts clarifying something brought up in this or that thread; this is the first on-going frank discussion of key issues with your products that i've seen yet. All of you were informative and helpful. All of you were gracious with your time and knowledge.

Second: I, for one, would not presume to tell you how to make your products. I don't have the knowledge, experience, dedication or courage to make a go of it in your field. The way in which my questions were asked was formatted to gain information in the most sucinct way: i guess it seemed more a cross-examination.

That being said, i don't feel bad for asking them. The properties of tarptents are mis-understood and, as we can see, deliberately shrouded. I have a closet full of tents i fully researched; yet found lacking in one key area or another. I'm going to buy a tarptent and i'm trying to avoid making any mistakes that can be avoided by learning all i can. And yes, I've learned alot between this thread and the BPL thread: but still not enough about the individual manufacturer's products. It's easy to see the positives presented on each one's website, not enough reviews are yet available for the drawbacks.

Sooo, keep looking for more intrusive questions as needs arise! http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

....oh, almost forgot: what's the big deal about the name of the fabric? Did you order a sil-nylon fabricated to your exact spec (that, i could understand) or just pick from a list of available fabrics anyone could buy hoping no one else figures it out? (can't help myself http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif)

FamilyGuy
02-12-2011, 19:39
Second for propriety reasons, I don't release the internal names of fabrics we purchase from our suppliers. I hope you can respect that.

Absolutely. Just trying to get my head around what is and what is not available. I hear less about misting (if ever) with Six Moons shelters so hence my question. Given that you are using 'Asian' silnylon for many of your shelters with the higher HH, then that makes sense.

Cheers,

10-K
02-13-2011, 21:01
Ok, it was a beautiful day today so I applied the Atsko Water-Guard Extreme product to my Rainbow. It didn't melt - that's good.

After several hours it feels dry but I'm going to leave it up all night and put another coat on tomorrow morning.

mark schofield
02-14-2011, 07:14
Hi 10-K; what's the net weight listed on the can. Is there enough for two treatments? I'll be starting my 3rd season with my contrail. Maybe it's time for some preventive maintenance. Please keep us all posted. Thanks, Mark S.

Singletrack
02-14-2011, 16:39
Today I talked to the manufacturer of the Aksko products, located in Orangeburg, S.C. I told him about the discussion going on, and hopefully he will post some information about his product. He did state that the Atsko Water Guard Extreme, their best waterproofer, one coat should be enough.

10-K
02-14-2011, 17:55
Hi 10-K; what's the net weight listed on the can. Is there enough for two treatments? I'll be starting my 3rd season with my contrail. Maybe it's time for some preventive maintenance. Please keep us all posted. Thanks, Mark S.

Says 10.5 oz on the can. I used about 2/3's of a can - I'm sure I could get another, full coverage lighter coat out of the can but honestly it looks like 1 coat covered it pretty well.

I went ahead and seam sealed it again while I had it stretched good and tight in the yard.

Now I have a tent AND a submarine. :)

FamilyGuy
02-14-2011, 22:58
Says 10.5 oz on the can. I used about 2/3's of a can - I'm sure I could get another, full coverage lighter coat out of the can but honestly it looks like 1 coat covered it pretty well.

I went ahead and seam sealed it again while I had it stretched good and tight in the yard.

Now I have a tent AND a submarine. :)

What was the increase in overall weight?

Bags4266
02-15-2011, 00:02
10.5 oz .......lol

Franco
02-15-2011, 00:30
The Asko can has about 13% silicone content, about 1.5oz..
So "about 2/3ds of a can " is about 1 oz.....
Franco

FamilyGuy
02-15-2011, 01:08
Thanks - not much at all.

daddytwosticks
02-15-2011, 08:24
NOT trying to start a fight...but after you spray the tent down w/silicon spray, maybe go with the liner to prevent touching the tent ceiling/walls (Moment), and possibly use a ground sheet, aren't you up close to three pounds? This is back to the weight of a one-person double wall tent like I use. :)

Singletrack
02-15-2011, 11:35
NOT trying to start a fight...but after you spray the tent down w/silicon spray, maybe go with the liner to prevent touching the tent ceiling/walls (Moment), and possibly use a ground sheet, aren't you up close to three pounds? This is back to the weight of a one-person double wall tent like I use. :)

TT Moment, 29oz., Liner 4oz., Ground Cloth 4oz., seam seal 1oz., mist proof 1oz. What double wall tent do you use?

FamilyGuy
02-15-2011, 12:57
No need for a ground cloth and no need for the mist proofing. Misting still remains a bit of a mystery and best and an anomaly at worst. Your Moment would be 34oz with the liner and not 48oz. There are a couple of double walled tents that are close to that weight but fall short on comparable room.

daddytwosticks
02-15-2011, 17:21
Just thinking out loud...I use a Eureka 1 person Spitfire. With painter's drop cloth as a footprint, a few ti stakes (6), and dropping the stock stuff sacks, I'm at 3 pounds dead even. I tried a Contrail a few years ago...single-wall tarp tents are not for me. If they work for you great! Just sayin'. :)

FamilyGuy
02-15-2011, 17:28
Just thinking out loud...I use a Eureka 1 person Spitfire. With painter's drop cloth as a footprint, a few ti stakes (6), and dropping the stock stuff sacks, I'm at 3 pounds dead even. I tried a Contrail a few years ago...single-wall tarp tents are not for me. If they work for you great! Just sayin'. :)

Yeah - I and I think that is just fine. You found what works for you and that is what it is all about.

Some are willing to use a shelter (i.e. Contrail) that is 50% lighter than the Spitfire with about 50% more space. But you are correct in that it is single walled and that is simply not for everyone. I am still trying to understand managing condensation after 20 years of backpacking....:eek:

10-K
02-16-2011, 16:56
Ok, I've finished "mist proofing" and seam sealing my TT Rainbow and have weights....

Tarptent Rainbow: 2 lbs, 6.8 oz (includes tent, stuff sack, 6 MSR groundhog stakes)

The advertised weight for the Rainbow is 2 lbs, 2 ozs but the MSR stakes weigh a bit more than the Eastons the Rainbow ships with)

SMD Lunar Duo: 2 lbs, 1.9 oz (includes tent, stuff sack, 6 MRS groundhog stakes)

The advertised weight for the Solo with the standard floor is 27 ozs without stakes and before seam sealing.

When I started this project the Rainbow was about 2 ozs heavier than the Solo so I've added approximately 3 ozs by seam sealing and spraying the stuff on the tent to mist proof it.

Singletrack
02-16-2011, 17:11
Ok, I've finished "mist proofing" and seam sealing my TT Rainbow and have weights....

Tarptent Rainbow: 2 lbs, 6.8 oz (includes tent, stuff sack, 6 MSR groundhog stakes)

The advertised weight for the Rainbow is 2 lbs, 2 ozs but the MSR stakes weigh a bit more than the Eastons the Rainbow ships with)

SMD Lunar Duo: 2 lbs, 1.9 oz (includes tent, stuff sack, 6 MRS groundhog stakes)

The advertised weight for the Solo with the standard floor is 27 ozs without stakes and before seam sealing.

When I started this project the Rainbow was about 2 ozs heavier than the Solo so I've added approximately 3 ozs by seam sealing and spraying the stuff on the tent to mist proof it.

Interesting. I have not sprayed mine yet. Something came up, and will be a while before I can get to it, but will let you know what increase in weight I have. The man at the Atsko Plant, said that it would increase the Hydrostatic Head. How much, I do not know. I plan on spraying 2 coats on my floor, because when you get in one those all night storms, water seems to start running across the ground. And could soak the floor.
I will be happy with a 3oz. increase, if it solves the problem.
Did you spray 1 or 2 coats?

10-K
02-16-2011, 18:09
1 coat - and I didn't do the floor. I'm not too worried about water getting through the floor.

Singletrack
02-18-2011, 18:27
Decided not to do the floor. Before Atsko Mistproofing, my Sublite Sil weighed, with 4 stakes, and stuff sack, 23.8oz., after 24.5oz. An increase of 7/10 of an ounce.

Franco
02-22-2011, 21:29
Finally I had the opportunity to try that for myself.
I have used several Tarptents without any problems but an Aussie customer reported misting with her DR so I tested the spray on her shelter.
This is a video of it afterwards :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBnkGIz9cco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBnkGIz9cco)
I did not weigh nor tested the shelter before hand but I estimate the weight gain (about 80% of the can as I had used some for some patch tests) to be about 1 oz or so.
Franco

stranger
02-23-2011, 08:45
Would using better material in the first place just be too easy?

I am confused even at the concept of an after market product to mistproof a tent that should be waterproof in the first place.

Lightheart tents use silnylon rated to 3000mm, do they 'mist'?

HeartFire
02-23-2011, 08:58
Would using better material in the first place just be too easy?

I am confused even at the concept of an after market product to mistproof a tent that should be waterproof in the first place.

Lightheart tents use silnylon rated to 3000mm, do they 'mist'?


I guess it's like 'scotchgaurd' for your tent,

The LightHeart Gray tents are 'rated' to 3500mm, but actually tested over 4000mm and the fabric blew off the machine, the clamps couldn't hold it at higher pressures, hence the rating of 'only' 3500mm

No, they don't mist.

Judy/LightHeart Gear

Bags4266
02-23-2011, 10:33
LOL, this thread reminds me of when the number one selling sedan Camry was found to have accelleration problems, or pedal issues. Toyota (Franco) was scrambling around to try to fix or eliminate damage control.

garbanz
02-23-2011, 11:16
After Henry mistproofed my previously seamsealed Moment it weighs 34 oz with two beefy stakes in the stuff sack. Water beads up on it. My double walled tent has more room but weighs over double that. Ive changed directions and am packin the Tarptent for my thru.

10-K
02-23-2011, 11:46
After Henry mistproofed my previously seamsealed Moment it weighs 34 oz with two beefy stakes in the stuff sack. Water beads up on it. My double walled tent has more room but weighs over double that. Ive changed directions and am packin the Tarptent for my thru.

Dang, mine weighs 39 ozs but that's with 6 MSR groundhog stakes....

I'm going to have to make sure and take a leak before I start hiking to equal out that extra 5 oz!

skinewmexico
02-23-2011, 12:33
Misting in a Tarptent is so overblown. But this is WB, where death lurks around every corner.

10-K
02-23-2011, 13:20
Misting in a Tarptent is so overblown. But this is WB, where death lurks around every corner.

You know, I don't really disagree with you.

It's still a bummer to experience. I'd rather not have to buy a tent and spray stuff on it to bring it up to the same standards as most other tents in this category.

But I did, and I did so that's that.

Tuckahoe
02-23-2011, 14:15
LOL, this thread reminds me of when the number one selling sedan Camry was found to have accelleration problems, or pedal issues. Toyota (Franco) was scrambling around to try to fix or eliminate damage control.

Except, Toyota was pretty much vidicated...

q-tip
02-26-2011, 15:01
I have a TT Contrail and a TT Cloudburst. did 1,000 mi on AT-Both tents misted. Soution-I put garbage bags over the inside of the tent before sleeping if I thought it would rain. the trade-off for weight esp.l with the Contrail is the way that worked for me. Also. very important to set up correctly-the sil nylon is stretchable so keep the tend very taught and it works better.

Bags4266
02-26-2011, 17:49
FWIW, Wally World by me sells the Sil Spray by Atsko for under $5.00

q-tip
03-18-2011, 14:10
I have two TT-Cloudburst-Contrail. Both will mist if the tent material is wet when set up, or the rain is very heavy for several hours. I put my 39 gal garbage bag rain gear over my gear in the tent, it eliminates moisture getting in all my stuff. Bringing a baklava (2.0 oz) on the CT this summer to keep the mist off my face.

10-K
03-18-2011, 16:34
I have two TT-Cloudburst-Contrail. Both will mist if the tent material is wet when set up, or the rain is very heavy for several hours. I put my 39 gal garbage bag rain gear over my gear in the tent, it eliminates moisture getting in all my stuff. Bringing a baklava (2.0 oz) on the CT this summer to keep the mist off my face.

There is something just not quite right about that.

Point Man Chef
03-18-2011, 16:43
Hey 10K
Have you had a chance to "use" your Rainbow since you did the treatment? If so, results? I'm setting my Double Rainbow up this evening in preparation to seam seal it and I also bought a can of the Atsko for good measure. I almost want to get rain in April just to see what's going to happen! (not every day mind you)



There is something just not quite right about that.

10-K
03-18-2011, 16:47
Hey 10K
Have you had a chance to "use" your Rainbow since you did the treatment? If so, results? I'm setting my Double Rainbow up this evening in preparation to seam seal it and I also bought a can of the Atsko for good measure. I almost want to get rain in April just to see what's going to happen! (not every day mind you)

I've taken it out but it hasn't monsooned on me again yet.

I've got it seam sealed and treated with the spray stuff pretty good so it ought not leak.

However, I am waiting on a cuben Lightheart Solo so the whole thing is likely a moot point. :)

Franco
03-18-2011, 17:50
Yes, the magic of Cuben...
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=44516 (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=44516)
Franco

10-K
03-18-2011, 18:07
Yes, the magic of Cuben...
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=44516 (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=44516)
Franco

You don't miss a trick, do you?

10-K
03-18-2011, 18:14
I should add that the Lightheart is a double wall tent which I would think would be more than sufficient for handling any misting that might occur through the cuben material - if it does at all.

The guys on BPL are discussing cuben tarps, not double walled shelters.

Big Dawg
03-20-2011, 20:05
I love my double wall Tarptents,, Double Rainbow & Moment. No problem w/ misting when you have double wall!! :cool:

Rocket Jones
03-21-2011, 06:18
I love my double wall Tarptents,, Double Rainbow & Moment. No problem w/ misting when you have double wall!! :cool:
You mean with the liner?

mark schofield
03-21-2011, 06:43
Hey Big Dawg; do you always set up the Moment with the liner, or only use it if the weather looks really bad.

Big Dawg
03-21-2011, 14:24
You mean with the liner?


Yes



Hey Big Dawg; do you always set up the Moment with the liner, or only use it if the weather looks really bad.


I always keep it in there. It stops misting and condensation drip, both of which don't happen that often anyway. But hey, for 4 ozs, it's a no brainer.

Singletrack
03-23-2011, 09:32
However, I am waiting on a cuben Lightheart Solo so the whole thing is likely a moot point. :)[/QUOTE]

Boy, would I love to have one in cuben. I know Lightheart tests the HH for their material. What is the HH for the Cuben material.

300winmag
05-27-2011, 00:28
I painted the top 1/2 of my TT Moment with a 5:1 ratio of odorless mineral spirits to GE Silicone II caulk. Keep it in a screw top plastic bottle and shake well every 3 minutes.

This is my solution to preventing the dreaded "mist -thru" of silnylon. It adds maybe an ounce of weight on a silnylon solo tent.

Eric

stranger
05-31-2011, 03:49
This is hilarious...pay $250 on a tent and you have to find ways to keep the mist off you, you guys crack me up

Dadof5
07-30-2011, 19:51
I got caught in a big storm in the Smokies in my brand new Zpack Hexamid and experienced misting as well. Nothing that soaked everything but enough that it beaded up on my down sleeping bag. So it happens with Cubin fiber as well.

Lyte-w8-hyker
09-27-2011, 15:51
Love my tdbl rainbow but haven't been in a real storm with it yet.

Franco
10-12-2011, 16:47
BTW, some real rain on those TTs :
http://www.youtube.com/user/francodarioli?feature=mhee#p/a/u/1/31PNJTJwdGg
Franco

Khike
10-16-2011, 14:02
Hey Guys, Boy, all that technical talk! I have a Double Rainbow and a Contrail for 5 yrs. Been in several heavy duty storms, mostly at night and all night. Never had a problem. I like them! Good product. Going tomorrow to do 2 wks in NC on the AT, Not skeered! Kevin

q-tip
10-17-2011, 12:35
I used the TT Contrail for three months last year. Had some misting, but use my garbage bag rain skirt and garbage bag rain shirt to cover the inside of my tent in heavy rain. At 24 oz, its the best tent for me and and I plan to use it on the CT next summer. Good Luck...