If you really want to hike the Appalachian Mts, you are starting in the wrong place.

[The Counselor]

Flagg Mountain, near Sylacauga, Alabama, is the southernmost Appalachian peak. Breaking News: The 762 acres of land between Flagg Mountain and the beginning of the Pinhoti Trail, which already connects to the AT, has just been purchased by the Conservation Fund.

With all due respect to Georgia's Springer Mountain, folks who want to hike all of the Appalachians need ship their packs south to Alabama. Once the particulars are complete, you would begin hiking in rugged, old growth forest along Weogufka Creek before entering the wooded mountains of the Talladega National Forest. Completing the Pinhoti Trail on the front end adds about 300 miles to the AT.

Realizing the economic boon that comes with a state having the southern terminus of the AT and the lobbying that would inevitably take place to preserve it, would the ATC expand the trail yet again?

So the informal poll question is:

*Do you value the tradition of starting at Springer and wish to preserve it?

*Or would you rather see the Appalachian Trail get longer by laying claim to all of the Appalachian Mountains?

[Pedaling Fool]

The cycle of life...

[WisconsinHiker2011]

Flagg Mountain, near Sylacauga, Alabama, is the southernmost Appalachian peak. Breaking News: The 762 acres of land between Flagg Mountain and the beginning of the Pinhoti Trail, which already connects to the AT, has just been purchased by the Conservation Fund.

With all due respect to Georgia's Springer Mountain, folks who want to hike all of the Appalachians need ship their packs south to Alabama. Once the particulars are complete, you would begin hiking in rugged, old growth forest along Weogufka Creek before entering the wooded mountains of the Talladega National Forest. Completing the Pinhoti Trail on the front end adds about 300 miles to the AT.

Realizing the economic boon that comes with a state having the southern terminus of the AT and the lobbying that would inevitably take place to preserve it, would the ATC expand the trail yet again?

So the informal poll question is:

*Do you value the tradition of starting at Springer and wish to preserve it?

*Or would you rather see the Appalachian Trail get longer by laying claim to all of the Appalachian Mountains?


This would only work if we expanded the trail into Canada and make the International Appalachian Trail a reality.

Of course you can already walk the above if you want. Why wait for official names and titles? :banana

[Cookerhiker]

Good news about the Conservation Fund's purchases around Flagg Mountain.

Re. extending the AT, my question would be how much of the existing corridor from Flagg to Springer lies on existing public lands or at least lands accessible to hikers? Would there be a lot of inevitable road walks because of large gaps consisting of private land? I ask this because given financing limitations, I'd rather see horizontal expansion of the existing AT corridor than verticle extension of the length. A longer ribbon of trees doesn't make for a great hike if the ribbon is surrounded by sprawl.

I know there are WB threads on the Pinhoti which may answer some of these questions.

[Manwich]

If you hiked the appalachian trail, you've hiked the appalachian trail.

If you hiked the appalachian mountains, you've hiked the appalachian mountains.

no need to get pedantic about it.

[Hobbler]

I have often wondered why the southern-most point of the appalachians were not included in the A/T and would be very interested in the ideas of expansion. This will however make the window of time much narrower, and the seasonal planning for the thru-hiker possibilities a tad more involving.

There will be a few more weeks to reach Springer and start the already established A/T route NOBO and a longer added time with the trek extension for those SOBO. There will be some who might feel that the value of their already completed thrus will be tainted...So be it! Just go and add the 300 mile trek to your "to do" list and you will feel much better.

[Tennessee Viking]

Pinhoti Trail promotion.

[Tuckahoe]

I am alright with the AT only including that portion of the Appalachian Mtns from Springer to Katahdin. The Appalachians are certainly a large enough range to include more than one trail and more than one name and any route that the builders want.

[The Counselor]

"Of course you can already walk the above if you want. Why wait for official names and titles?"

Thanks for the wisdom. Why does the ATC officially name/title the AT at all? You think I started the conversation because I am debating waiting until someone title's a trail before I'll walk it?

I just thought it was an interesting conversation piece. I would imagine the conversation has taken place every time a trail is officially designated or expanded......

[Dances with Mice]

"Of course you can already walk the above if you want. Why wait for official names and titles?"

Thanks for the wisdom. Why does the ATC officially name/title the AT at all? You think I started the conversation because I am debating waiting until someone title's a trail before I'll walk it?....We've seen stranger.

Speaking of interesting conversations, which of the mountain bike clubs and equestrian trail clubs that helped build and still maintain portions of the path think absorbing their unique scenic trail into the AT is a good idea?

[Sickmont]

Maybe instead of making the trail longer if it ever gets connected to Flagg mtn. perhaps it could be another blue blaze trail?

[Hobbler]

Good news about the Conservation Fund's purchases around Flagg Mountain.

Re. extending the AT, my question would be how much of the existing corridor from Flagg to Springer lies on existing public lands or at least lands accessible to hikers? Would there be a lot of inevitable road walks because of large gaps consisting of private land? I ask this because given financing limitations, I'd rather see horizontal expansion of the existing AT corridor rather than verticle extension of the length. A longer ribbon of trees doesn't make for a great hike if the ribbon is surrounded by sprawl.

I know there are WB threads on the Pinhotti which may answer some of these questions.

Let's remember that the A/T has faced its share of road-hiking through the years and through activism and determination of the supporting organizations has over-come a lot of that. There are still some areas of relocations regularly and they are addressed and made better. Any new trail will take some time to get the kinks out. If it happens, it will be an on-going process.

[Luddite]

*Do you value the tradition of starting at Springer and wish to preserve it?

*Or would you rather see the Appalachian Trail get longer by laying claim to all of the Appalachian Mountains?

The AT is already completed and those Alabama hills are only mountains on a technicality. The real Appalachian mountains begin in north Georgia.

[double d]

"Of course you can already walk the above if you want. Why wait for official names and titles?"

Thanks for the wisdom. Why does the ATC officially name/title the AT at all? You think I started the conversation because I am debating waiting until someone title's a trail before I'll walk it?

I just thought it was an interesting conversation piece. I would imagine the conversation has taken place every time a trail is officially designated or expanded......
Counselor, don't you have any sense of American political history? The ATC was granted this power by the Federal government when the AT became a protected trail by Congress in 1968. Congress had to move to protect this land called the AT (and of course the protected trails in your state) because of land development and private ownership. Try hiking on someone's private land, see how far that gets you.

[Sly]

I have often wondered why the southern-most point of the appalachians were not included in the A/T and would be very interested in the ideas of expansion. This will however make the window of time much narrower, and the seasonal planning for the thru-hiker possibilities a tad more involving.



Have you also wondered why the northern-most point of the Appalachians was not included in the AT?

As Cookerhiker pointed out it would be best to widen the trail than lengthen it.

[Kerosene]

What John means is that this has all been debated before at WhiteBlaze. Of course, if you insist on hiking the entire Appalachian range, then you'll want to hike all the way to Newfoundland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Mountains#Overview), although I don't believe that an official ferryboat has been designated to get you to the island from New Brunswick.

[flemdawg1]

Maybe instead of making the trail longer if it ever gets connected to Flagg mtn. perhaps it could be another blue blaze trail?

IT's a blue blaze now, connected to the BMT.


The AT is already completed and those Alabama hills are only mountains on a technicality. The real Appalachian mountains begin in north Georgia.

Whats the diff between a "technical" mountain and a "real" mountain?

What the Pinhoti needs in order to be considered to be part of the average thur-hiker's plan is some services. Get a few volunteers to offer some shuttles, some of those ma-paw convenience stores to carry fuel canisters and better hiking food, get the local law enforcement more serious about protecting trailheads from vandalism and theft.

[buff_jeff]

I highly doubt it will ever become part of the "official" AT route. I mean, the Approach Trail has been around for how long? and it isn't white blazed.

[Sickmont]

IT's a blue blaze now, connected to the BMT.


Oh. Oops. I failed.

[max patch]

Here's what you need to do Counselor:

1. Get the Pinhoti off the roads and into the woods.
2. Get rid of the horses.
3. Get rid of the bikes.

Then come back and make your case.

[Hobbler]

Have you also wondered why the northern-most point of the Appalachians was not included in the AT?

As Cookerhiker pointed out it would be best to widen the trail than lengthen it.

I don't limit my wondering. The OP was proposing the southern extension. Of course I would welcome discussion about the northern terminus being extended as well.

You have to start somewhere, and securing the corridor of extension, if that is what is in the wind, no matter how narrow, is a great place to begin.....Widening and tweaking is a part of the process. I agree, the A/T is narrow in spots but at least the corridor is secure due to congressional action and we would be well served to get as much trail everywhere under better protection. If made part of the A/T it would have that protection.

However with budget restrictions and other priorities upon those powers that be, It will probably not happen any time soon. For now, blue blaze it is.

[Hikes in Rain]

I have often wondered why the southern-most point of the appalachians were not included in the A/T .....


As I recall various bits of reading that have become jumbled into what's left of my memory, the idea was to "connect the tallest mountain in the south with the tallest mountain in the north." It was originally supposed to be Mt. Mitchell at the southern terminus, but was moved to Oglethorpe.

But good news on the purchase.

[Hobbler]

As I recall various bits of reading that have become jumbled into what's left of my memory, the idea was to "connect the tallest mountain in the south with the tallest mountain in the north." It was originally supposed to be Mt. Mitchell at the southern terminus, but was moved to Oglethorpe.

But good news on the purchase.

I agree with the original premise, however, the trail has changed and so has the world. When the original thoughts about the trail were brought up, there wasn't the pressure on pristine and scenic areas that is the case now. Once spoiled, never to return to what we had. We have chances to preserve what is wild and beautiful and we blow them every single day.....At least a corridor is something if protected, to be there for the future. Preserve our Land...They aren't making any more of it!

[Spokes]

Does this mean my ATC dues will go up?

[The Counselor]

Here's what you need to do Counselor:

1. Get the Pinhoti off the roads and into the woods.
2. Get rid of the horses.
3. Get rid of the bikes.

Then come back and make your case.

Not making a case one way or the other. If I am firmly on the side of one issue or another, trust me you'll know it. Having said that, yes I chose my subject line purposely to jump start a little conversation on something I find interesting from all angles.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Flagg Mountain, near Sylacauga, Alabama, is the southernmost Appalachian peak. Breaking News: The 762 acres of land between Flagg Mountain and the beginning of the Pinhoti Trail, which already connects to the AT, has just been purchased by the Conservation Fund.

The Counselor, can you offer any information or time frame when there may be a trail blazed for this section? I have been considering doing the Pinhoti but was more interested in starting at the trail rather than hoofing the first few miles on the road.

Just wondering. Thanks.

[Snowleopard]

There's another thread about hiking from Mt. Oglethorpe (as hikes in rain says, the former southern terminus of the AT) to Springer. Apparently as far back as the 50s development and private property meant a lot of road walking on that section.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=68967

I've read that the Appalachians extend beyond Newfoundland to Scotland and Africa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Mountains

[The Counselor]

Here's the article from today's Birmingham News.
Otherwise, I am a newbie and don't know the answers to your questions. Seems like Bearpaw has extensive Pinhoti experience. I bet he would know more.

I also read that they are planning a trail that would traverse the whole state of Alabama linking the Gulf to the Pinhoti:

http://blog.al.com/times-views/2011/02/editorial_state_hiking_trail_c.html
http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/02/conservation_fund_buys_762_acr.html#incart_hbx

[The Weasel]

This discussion reminds me of the time my minister asked our congregation, "If God's name was 'Fred' instead of 'Jehovah,' and he had false teeth, a '77 Toyota and an ugly dog, would He still be God?" The response was, "If it could happen, maybe it would matter. But it won't, and it don't." Folks, there's an "Appalachian Trail" - capitalized first letters - that runs from Springer to Katahdin. No one - from its inception - ever suggested that it included all the Appalachian Mountains, nor was it designed to, either longitudinally or laterally. If the Pinhoti was added, it still wouldn't; there's another couple hundred miles of Maine (in the US) that would still be out, and mountains a hundred miles wide east-to-west. Geologically, parts of even Arkansas are considered to be part of the geologic-historic Appalalachian Mountains (Wikipedia reminds us that the original chain includes the Atlas Mountains in Morocco), and the IAT and more of Canada are, too. For that matter, there are a lot of other "Applachian trails" - note the lack of a capital "T" in "trail" - all over eastern and southeastern America, including in Ohio, Kentucky and other states.

Generally, those who call for "adding" segments have their own agendas which are unmentioned, i.e. "We can't make our trail as famous/supported/successful as the AT, so we want to glom onto the AT's success (and money)." Nor do those who want to "merge" them realize that, in doing so, the concept of a "thru hike" will be even less likely for most, since making a 2200 mile trail 2500 miles - or even up to 4,000 miles - sort of means that people will often be quitting at Springer rather than starting there. And if you can't "finish" at Katahdin, where is "the end"?

This is just a sham discussion. Lots of trails "connect" to the AT, most of which begin somewhere in Appalachia. They are good trails. Let them be such.

TW

[Hobbler]

Not making a case one way or the other. If I am firmly on the side of one issue or another, trust me you'll know it. Having said that, yes I chose my subject line purposely to jump start a little conversation on something I find interesting from all angles.

I am glad that you opened the conversation concerning the extension, and understood your position of non-advocacy from the start. There is little one can do alone. Without an idea open to discussion, things just won't happen. The concept and reality of the A/T wasn't even a possibility until it was passionately supported and its merits argued. All sides then came to some sort of agreement. I am also not pushing for the extension but am open to it if it happens. The more protected trail system in this country, the better of course. Whether this issue or other trail proposals have been talked about in the past is not a reason to keep them buried and not bring them up again... Thanks for the "jump start"

[The Counselor]

This is just a sham discussion. Lots of trails "connect" to the AT, most of which begin somewhere in Appalachia. They are good trails. Let them be such.

TW[/QUOTE]

I think you make good points with the exception of the conclusion you draw about the discussion. And just in case anyone might be wondering, I have no agenda whatsoever and have no affiliation with any Alabama, tourism, enviro or other relevant group - other than my 35 dollar ATC membership. I sense some sensitivity to a pretty innocuous topic - something I had no intention of poking at.

[Cookerhiker]

I don't limit my wondering. The OP was proposing the southern extension. Of course I would welcome discussion about the northern terminus being extended as well.

You have to start somewhere, and securing the corridor of extension, if that is what is in the wind, no matter how narrow, is a great place to begin.....Widening and tweaking is a part of the process. I agree, the A/T is narrow in spots but at least the corridor is secure due to congressional action and we would be well served to get as much trail everywhere under better protection. If made part of the A/T it would have that protection.

However with budget restrictions and other priorities upon those powers that be, It will probably not happen any time soon. For now, blue blaze it is.

Well sure in my idealized vision of the world, I'd like to see it all: a wider trail corridor, a trail from Springer to Flagg and beyond in all directions (and BTW, where does the Great Eastern Trail fit in your scheme - doesn't that go through AL?), a giant loop so that the AT never really ends, like Earl Shaffer spoke of in Walking with Spring. Wouldn't it be nice to connect the Pinhoti or GET or AT with the Ozark or Ouchita trails? Wouldn't it be nice if a cross-country trail(s) completely on dirt trails were in-place?

But reality - fiscal and other - intervenes. We must prioritize. The OP infers that this Flagg-Springer connection would be an extended AT. If the objective is to extend the AT, this involves the ATC and Congress, being that the AT is a National Scenic Trail with a role for the National Park Service. So then I return to my first point: what's the priority at this level? IMO, expanding/widening the existing AT corridor is more important; that's where I want my ATC dues, my ATC priorities to focus on.

Now I think it's great if local interests wish to further improve (widen, lengthen, whatever) existing trail corridors and/or build new ones, either in this AL-GA stretch or anywhere. It sounds like per Max's post that there are some hurdles here but the Flagg purchase shows some positive development. I applaud that and I appreciate all the work by those involved.

[The Weasel]

And just in case anyone might be wondering, I have no agenda whatsoever and have no affiliation with any Alabama, tourism, enviro or other relevant group - other than my 35 dollar ATC membership.

In other words, you're a troll just trying to stir a pot?

TW

[The Counselor]

In other words, you're a troll just trying to stir a pot?

TW

Yeah - you've broken the code. Congrats.

[Cookerhiker]

In other words, you're a troll just trying to stir a pot?

TW

I think you're being too hard on him Weasel - I don't see any trolling and there's nothing wrong with this discussion.

[Hobbler]

I think you're being too hard on him Weasel - I don't see any trolling and there's nothing wrong with this discussion.


Here....Here! I agree...It is a forum after-all

[sbhikes]

I wasn't content with just hiking only the designated PCT trail, so I hiked from my house to the PCT and then hiked the PCT to Canada. So anybody not content with just the trail as designated can start and end wherever they want, right?

[The Weasel]

Cooker --

I appreciate your viewpoint, and perhaps I am. But this is a topic that keeps coming up over and over, and has been hashed out to the point of absurdity, with nothing new ever being added. In the past, it's included a lot of even hucksterism, with a "trail" has tried to essentially steal the name of the AT along with its reputation. And it's rare that one ever sees past AT thrus or long-mileage hikers clamoring to "add" to the AT, but usually someone with another ax to grind. If this time it's different, it will be a first. Possible, yes. But it's hard to believe that anyone with any real ties to the AT information network of websites, hiking, other groups and so on wouldn't know that. And anyone who doesn't have that kind of background is such a newbie that I'm not sure how they'd come up with the idea.

So if the idea is just "hypothetical", well, let's discuss having the AT start near Little Rock and end after a ocean voyage from Newfoundland to Rabaut. Or let's discuss how the AT shouldn't be called that, since it doesn't go through every Appalachian state. Or how really the name is from Florida Indians, and we should abolish it and call it "The Formerly Great Big Mountain Chain But Now Sorta Shrunken Bunch Of Hills That Goes From Somewhere But We're Not Sure Where To Somewhere Else Uncertain Trail."

In other words, if you're gonna troll and stir the pot, do it for real.

Or not.

TW

[The Weasel]

I wasn't content with just hiking only the designated PCT trail, so I hiked from my house to the PCT and then hiked the PCT to Canada. So anybody not content with just the trail as designated can start and end wherever they want, right?

Or even end where they want! You could have taken the tram down at San Jacincto and then told everyone, "I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail!":banana

What an idea! Actually, a good argument can be made that the "Appalachians" end just short of the Smoky Mountains, since all the chains of mountains after that have different names. Maybe Bill Bryson DID hike the Appalachian Trail!

TW

[The Counselor]

Cooker --

I appreciate your viewpoint, and perhaps I am. But this is a topic that keeps coming up over and over, and has been hashed out to the point of absurdity, with nothing new ever being added. In the past, it's included a lot of even hucksterism, with a "trail" has tried to essentially steal the name of the AT along with its reputation. And it's rare that one ever sees past AT thrus or long-mileage hikers clamoring to "add" to the AT, but usually someone with another ax to grind. If this time it's different, it will be a first. Possible, yes. But it's hard to believe that anyone with any real ties to the AT information network of websites, hiking, other groups and so on wouldn't know that. And anyone who doesn't have that kind of background is such a newbie that I'm not sure how they'd come up with the idea.

So if the idea is just "hypothetical", well, let's discuss having the AT start near Little Rock and end after a ocean voyage from Newfoundland to Rabaut. Or let's discuss how the AT shouldn't be called that, since it doesn't go through every Appalachian state. Or how really the name is from Florida Indians, and we should abolish it and call it "The Formerly Great Big Mountain Chain But Now Sorta Shrunken Bunch Of Hills That Goes From Somewhere But We're Not Sure Where To Somewhere Else Uncertain Trail."

In other words, if you're gonna troll and stir the pot, do it for real.

Or not.

TW

Let's see if I can set you straight.

First, the reason it came up is due to today's news that the tract in question was purchased. I mentioned it as breaking news and then linked today's newspaper article about it.

Second, there is no vitriol or bad blood anywhere in my posts. You could also have taken two seconds to look at my other posts and get an idea of my pattern in this respect.

Third, I have my name, picture and some details about me listed in my profile and I have donated to this site already in the short time since I've been visiting it.

By what definition would any of this indicate a troll or someone with an axe to grind? For all your thousands of posts, I would think your troll recognition skills (and sense of courtesy) would be better developed.

[max patch]

By what definition would any of this indicate a troll or someone with an axe to grind? For all your thousands of posts, I would think your troll recognition skills (and sense of courtesy) would be better developed.

He can't help it. He's a lawyer. :)

[Cookerhiker]

Cooker --

I appreciate your viewpoint, and perhaps I am. But this is a topic that keeps coming up over and over, and has been hashed out to the point of absurdity, with nothing new ever being added. In the past, it's included a lot of even hucksterism, with a "trail" has tried to essentially steal the name of the AT along with its reputation. And it's rare that one ever sees past AT thrus or long-mileage hikers clamoring to "add" to the AT, but usually someone with another ax to grind. If this time it's different, it will be a first. Possible, yes. But it's hard to believe that anyone with any real ties to the AT information network of websites, hiking, other groups and so on wouldn't know that. And anyone who doesn't have that kind of background is such a newbie that I'm not sure how they'd come up with the idea.

So if the idea is just "hypothetical", well, let's discuss having the AT start near Little Rock and end after a ocean voyage from Newfoundland to Rabaut. Or let's discuss how the AT shouldn't be called that, since it doesn't go through every Appalachian state. Or how really the name is from Florida Indians, and we should abolish it and call it "The Formerly Great Big Mountain Chain But Now Sorta Shrunken Bunch Of Hills That Goes From Somewhere But We're Not Sure Where To Somewhere Else Uncertain Trail."

In other words, if you're gonna troll and stir the pot, do it for real.

Or not.

TW

I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt. It's just that I've seen so many new posts introduced by WB newcomers on topics that have been hashed over-and-over again, including issues similar to this one that I've come to accept that there are folks who ask questions/raise discussions with good-faith intentions.

BTW, I don't necessarily agree with the OP or Hobbler which I believe my above posts demonstrate.

And incidentally, Earl Shaffer's musing which I cited somewhat belies your assertion "it's rare that one ever sees past AT thrus or long-mileage hikers clamoring to "add" to the AT." Of course, Earl's just one thruhiker.

[The Weasel]

Never suggested you were being vitrioloic or "bad blood." But this topic has been "raised" every time the Pinhoti has put out a press release for years now. I can appreciate that you're new, but that doesn't mean that everything that is new to you is "news". "Trolling" (which is sometimes fine, I suppose) is trying to troll for arguments to something that really doesn't matter, and pot-stirring is trying to keep the argument going when it gets lame. If you're not doing either, great. Let's have an interesting discussion about starting the AT in Alabama and ending it at Ourazazate. I'm sure it will lead to the AT being altered in this millenium.

TW

[The Weasel]

He can't help it. He's a lawyer. :)

Sure he can. He just doesn't. ;)

TW

[Cookerhiker]

..... If you're not doing either, great. Let's have an interesting discussion about starting the AT in Alabama and ending it at Ourazazate. I'm sure it will lead to the AT being altered in this millenium.

TW

Note that while the OP is obviously interested and oriented to Alabama, the wording of his "poll" option was not so provincial:

"Or would you rather see the Appalachian Trail get longer by laying claim to all of the Appalachian Mountains?" (my emphasis)

[The Counselor]

Show me a topic on this site that hasn't been hashed and re-hashed. You'll be happier in life giving people the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming the worst as you seem to have done with me. Apparently, there is a Pinhoti agenda that I am unaware of. I posted it simply because it interested me and made the news here today. If you don't want to read this minute's version of "what's the best sleeping bag" or "hammock vs tent" then don't read em. Think back six thousand five hundred posts or so. Recapture your inner newbie.

[max patch]

Think back six thousand five hundred posts or so. Recapture your inner newbie.

6,000 posts is chump change. You ain't seen nothing yet. Lone Wolf has 25,000 posts. Wait til you read his crap.

[flemdawg1]

Counselor, I think you just set off Weasel, because this periodically happens on a normal basis around here. Pinhoti Trail has a story, ad placement, etc., and soemone from AL brings up the same discussion of possibly adding the PT to the AT.

Weasel just seems to be weary of the AL Tourism Board/Chamber of Commerce types yearly pushing this idea of extending. He probably mistaked you for one of those connected people, being your a lawyer from the state's largest city.

FWIW, the Appalchia's end actually is marked somewhere near Tannehill Stae Park. Flagg is the southern-most peak over 1000ft.

[Mags]

I would imagine the conversation has taken place every time a trail is officially designated or expanded......


Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

This conversation comes up almost as much as treating water near dogs while talking on the cell phone....:p

[bus]

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

This conversation comes up almost as much as treating water near dogs while talking on the cell phone....:p

is that with or without a GPS?

[Hikes in Rain]

Or leaning on a hiking pole??

[chief]

I think the real story here is that the "Conservation Fund" overpaid for a largely worthless piece of creek bottom, soil not well enough drained for commercial forest or farming or development. WIN for the former landowner! FAIL for the AT agendas!

[The Counselor]

Assuming it was an arms length deal (i.e. no collusion or fraud), that's capitalism baby. I would hope the stakeholders did due diligence and/or have enough oversight to ensure they got what they wanted at a price they were willing to pay. It is an interesting assertion. What all do you know about it ?

[mweinstone]

one world trail? global trailonomics?freetrade between the g7 trail nations? no.
we need a border fence.

[sir limpsalot]

Why wouldn't anyone want to extend the Appalachian Trail? The trail, as concieved, can only be better in application by expanding it's territory. What possible wrong is there? Yes, it will start as whatever roadwalks/unscenic access is available: but it will morph in time to good trail. Go up, Go down, Go out, expand it all as much as we can! Come on, be real: let's take advantage of any opportunity to expand. This can only make a good thing better.

[TheChop]

Yeah but then the trail would start in... Alabama. Really? Is that the image we want to be putting out there? Alabama? Come on. Alabama? No no I don't think so.

[sherrill]

But this is a topic that keeps coming up over and over, and has been hashed out to the point of absurdity, with nothing new ever being added.

Natural lifecycle of any internet forum.

[mweinstone]

why do you all think the volenteers of the pinhoty trail would allow their hard work to be userped? we wouldnt want the AT to become the pinhoty.leave well enough alone.

[Trailbender]

Have you also wondered why the northern-most point of the Appalachians was not included in the AT?

As Cookerhiker pointed out it would be best to widen the trail than lengthen it.

If you include the Northern part of the Appalachians, then you better enjoy hiking in Siberia. The mountains up there were all part of the same long chain before the supercontinent broke up about 200 my ago.

[FatMan]

Great news on the land acquisition.

As someone who lives a few hundred yards from the AT just 18 miles north of Springer I would love to see the trail extended to Alabama. Then all the thru-hikers can destroy that part of the trail March thru May.

But I do not see the trail ever being expanded to Alabama. As others have said the ATC / Clubs have their hands full as it is with the current 2100 miles.

I think once the Pinhoti / BMT connection improves to the point where there are little to no road walks many adventuresome souls will choose to begin there. Just as some continue on from big K on the International AT. Who really cares what the name is, just walk man.

[Ender]

I can appreciate that you're new, but that doesn't mean that everything that is new to you is "news".

And just because you've seen it before, doesn't mean that other, newer members don't have the right to discuss it. Just like with TV, if you don't like it, don't watch it.

To the original point, I personally don't see any need to change things up, but I wouldn't mind it if it happened either. My thoughts though are that they will remain separate trails that you can connect if you want to. Either way, there's still trails to hike.

Also, good news on the land purchase. Any land bought to secure hiking trails is good in my book. :sun

[Hobbler]

And just because you've seen it before, doesn't mean that other, newer members don't have the right to discuss it. Just like with TV, if you don't like it, don't watch it.

To the original point, I personally don't see any need to change things up, but I wouldn't mind it if it happened either. My thoughts though are that they will remain separate trails that you can connect if you want to. Either way, there's still trails to hike.

Also, good news on the land purchase. Any land bought to secure hiking trails is good in my book. :sun

Well put!....All that is old is new again...At least to some of us. All opinions matter! Whether newbie or long-standing member...This is after-all an open forum. If you don't like something and want to participate in meaningful discussion and post as such...don't post, but also don't belittle others and tell them not to post their thoughts even if you feel it is boring.

[The Weasel]

Note that while the OP is obviously interested and oriented to Alabama, the wording of his "poll" option was not so provincial:

"Or would you rather see the Appalachian Trail get longer by laying claim to all of the Appalachian Mountains?" (my emphasis)

Well, folks, Ourazazate, in the Anti-Atlas Mountains of Morocco, is geologically part of the Applachian Mountains every bit as much as any part of the Pinhoti or the IAT. Am I being facetious? Yes. (Well, I hope the AAT - the Anti-Atlas Trail - isn't bein proposed for addition to the AT!). But hence the problem: If the Pinhoti, why not the IAT. If them, why not Arkansas? And why not Morocco? Essentially, I'm saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The AT now is just fine. Having the IAT, and the Pinhoti, and alot of others, is great. We don't need to have every connecting trail joined to the AT....unless there's some other agenda.



Counselor, I think you just set off Weasel, because this periodically happens on a normal basis around here. Pinhoti Trail has a story, ad placement, etc., and soemone from AL brings up the same discussion of possibly adding the PT to the AT.

Weasel just seems to be weary of the AL Tourism Board/Chamber of Commerce types yearly pushing this idea of extending. He probably mistaked you for one of those connected people, being your a lawyer from the state's largest city.

Yeah, well, Flemdawg is pretty spot on. If you're not part of any such agenda (including regional pride), Counselor, my honest apologies; sometimes you reach for a rose and fall into the manure, and if that's what happened to you, I gladly respect your desire for the rose.

BUT. Alabama has a nice (I hope) trail. Let it become nicer. On its own.

TW

[Cookerhiker]

Here's my take: there are several long hiking trails (long>=100 miles) which branch off from the AT and are similar in that they are mostly foot traffic only and proceed along ridgelines in the Greater Appalachian Mts. Examples are the Bartram, Allegheny, Tuscarora, Long Path, Long Trail. And then you have mixed use or different types of trails like American Discovery, Horseshoe, Mountains-to-Sea which also intersect.

What's unique about the Pinhoti is that its connection point with the AT is one of the termini so it's not surprising that some folks think about tacking it on to the AT, especially since it's still in the Appalachians. But this is looking at a trail only in a linear sense. Don't all of these trails in the greater world constitute a family of "Appalachian" trails?

As I said previously, personally I'd put my priorities in expanding the corridor of the AT. I'd like to see more trails or at least better protection of newer less-established trails moving them into the woods; I guess parts of the Pinhoti fall into this area. I'd like to see the GET completed. I'd like to see via the GET and/or connectors being able to hike from the AT to the Sheltowee. I'd like to see the ALT's missing link plugged. I'd like to see all the Eastern trails in the Appalachian region networked with a minimum of roadwalks.

In Vermont, the GMC recognizes those who have hiked all the trails connecting with the Long Trail. I've heard there's something like that with the Smokies also; at least I've heard of hikers who strive to hike all X hundred miles of trails in GSMNP.

So how about extending this concept by recognizing this family, this pantheon of "Appalachian" trails? Call itsomething like Eastern Mountain Trails network to avoid terminology confusion (a placeholder term; something more catchy/creative can be coined). Who will be the first to hike not only the entire Springer-Katahdin AT but also the Pinhoti, Benton MacKaye, Allegheny, Tuscarora etc.? Perhaps someone already has. And what trails are included in this pantheon? Not just the big ones with direct connections but other long ones reachable via connector trails like Foothills in SC or Mid-State in PA or Finger Lakes in NY? Do you also include blue-blazed side trails? How is "purity" determined when one claims he hiked all Eastern Mountain trails but skipped one blue-blazed trail to a waterfall in SNP?

Makes for some more armchair discussions & arguments on WB - just what we need.:rolleyes: It takes much more time to hike all the Eastern Mountain Trails family so it would get us out hiking and off the computer (present company very much included):)

[The Weasel]

Interesting post, Counselor. But I think it bites off too much to really be accomplished, and I'm not sure the purpose to be served: Having an ATC serves the AT, much as do other trail associations, sometimes well and other times not. So I'm not sure what the purpose or goal of this is, other than to say, "Yeah, there are a lot of connecting trails."

By the way, other than the Pinhoti (and the unmentioned IAT), there are at least two other trails that "connect" to the AT at termini: The Springer and Katahdin approach trails. Neither one is part of the AT.

TW

[SassyWindsor]

The Pinhoti would have a better chance of doing something similar to the IAT. Call it the AAT (Alabama AT) or PAT (Pinhoti AT) or whatever. As long as pack animals and bicycles are allowed I wouldn't be interested in hiking it. However, watching a few snowmobiles in July having a go at it would be fun. :)

[SouthMark]

BUT. Alabama has a nice (I hope) trail. Let it become nicer. On its own.

TW

I probably should stay out of this but as a member of a hiking club that maintains a section of the Pinhoti, we would prefer that it remain separate. It is actually nicer in most places than the AT (IOHO). It is not worn down and eroded away, it passes through two wilderness areas, a national forest and a state park. All of those that wish it could become part of the AT should hike it first. Just like the BMT it is a wonderful trail with its own personality.

[Mags]

Being serious (what?), I'd hate for the PT or the BMT to be part of the AT (as unlikely as that is ) is that the BMT, PT and AT all have different traditions, feel, policies, etc.

I'd hate for a trail to lose it's identity to become part of a bigger trail. The AT is great... But so was the BMT for different reasons. A little more remote, wilder and blessedly few shelters.

I have no experience with the PT (yet), but I understand that allows horses and bicycles. The AT does not.

The PT is not fully completed (that's a good thing! Seriously) and more BMT than AT-like.

Let the trails keep their own identity.

If someone wants to hike from the last 1000' peak to the Cape' Gaspe'...let them! Take some maps, plan the route and go for it.

Don't need no stinkin' official designated trail. :)

Besides, the 'official' end of the Appalachians is at the tail end of the Cumberland Plateau:D

[Hobbler]

I'd like to see more trails or at least better protection of newer less-established trails moving them into the woods; I guess parts of the Pinhoti fall into this area. I'd like to see the GET completed. I'd like to see via the GET and/or connectors being able to hike from the AT to the Sheltowee. I'd like to see the ALT's missing link plugged. I'd like to see all the Eastern trails in the Appalachian region networked with a minimum of roadwalks.


So how about extending this concept by recognizing this family, this pantheon of "Appalachian" trails? Call itsomething like Eastern Mountain Trails network to avoid terminology confusion (a placeholder term; something more catchy/creative can be coined). Who will be the first to hike not only the entire Springer-Katahdin AT but also the Pinhoti, Benton MacKaye, Allegheny, Tuscarora etc.? Perhaps someone already has. And what trails are included in this pantheon? Not just the big ones with direct connections but other long ones reachable via connector trails like Foothills in SC or Mid-State in PA or Finger Lakes in NY? Do you also include blue-blazed side trails? How is "purity" determined when one claims he hiked all Eastern Mountain trails but skipped one blue-blazed trail to a waterfall in SNP?

:)


Cookerhiker...Thanks for the great post!...It really doesn't matter if the Pinhoti is included in the linear configuration of the A/T. It is there to hike no matter what. What is really important is the idea of trail corridor protection no matter what trail, how wide or narrow. Of course, to be looked at as favorable for most hikers it will have to be closed to "foot traffic only" that is where part of the protection comes in.

I agree, and would like to see an Appalachian Trails System adopted for the major "Feeder" trails that you mentioned above and receive some sort of congressional higher designation for their protection, as they are lacking now. The A/T already has National Historic Trail designation. Not saying that those trails have to receive that elevated label though. There is organizational support and and maintenance being done now on a volunteer basis and would probably be more if the funds and legislation was in place to help to this end. I know that money is tight now and don't see this happening any time soon though.

As far as "purity" or some claim to hike whatever combination, that might be out the window...Just enjoy the hiking!

Thanks again for your insight and thoughts.

[Cookerhiker]

...By the way, other than the Pinhoti (and the unmentioned IAT), there are at least two other trails that "connect" to the AT at termini: The Springer and Katahdin approach trails. Neither one is part of the AT...

Of course I'm aware of that! They're not long distance trails like the Pinhoti or the other ones I cited; they're just part of the vast network, family, whatever of blue-blazed, yellow-blazed side trails in the Appalachians. But they're not on the scale of the Pinhoti.

Context, context: I thought your concern centered on supposed interests in AL who want the AT formally and I guess legally attached to the AT notwithstanding what South Mark just said. I'm just pointing out the logic or theory behind these proponents' position. And yes, the same rationale would apply to those who want the IAT similarly appended.

[sherrill]

Heck, let's add the MST as a side trip to the beach while we're at it.

[The Weasel]

Cooker -

Here's my concern: We all know there is a finite amount of money available for public lands, and only a small amount of that - either public or private sourced - available for trials. That includes some of the places in the "crown jewels" of American trails managed by the NPS, which is about as high up the economic food chain as one can get in public money for wild lands. There is also a finite - and not even remotely large enough - support base of volunteers for such things.

One of the ways that organizations get more from the funding trough is by becoming well known or even "branded." That takes a huge amount of time and work too, as well as money. It took the AT 30 years to get federal designation (longer, really, if you count from the time of inception) and another 40 past that to get enough funding and help to get virtually the last food into "public corridor." Now that's done, a lot of people think, "Hey! The AT is 'finished'!" That not only adversely affects AT funding, but it's untrue: There is a large and continuingly growing funding deficit between what's needed and what can be afforded.

And now that that's happened, it just bothers me a lot that other groups sort of appear and say, "Hey! I've got a stretch that I can justify as being "Appalachian"!" and try to "attach" it to the AT. Why? Usually it is so it can be part of the AT, which means it siphons funding and other support from the "original" stretch. Worse, there are a lot of trail organizations that have labored hard, for decades, to get other long distance trails recognized as part of the National Trail System - the North County Trail is my personal favorite - which are starving for funding; "adding" the Pinhoti or the IAT reduces the miniscule "pot" available for them, too.

That's why I view various proposals to "attach" to the AT, or to make newer or smaller trails "part" of some amorphous "system" that will, in whatever manner, constantly turn to the larger and comparatively wealthier 'big brother' of the AT and try to leverage the name or the affiliation into support, not for the AT, but for them.

So if I'm a bit wound, it's because I see the crappy condition a lot of the PCT (closest main trail to me now) and say, "I can't wait for someone to find a way to keep it maintained." Perhaps I'd feel better if there were someone who came along and said, "We went out and found a lot of money and a lot of workers to buy, build and establish the "International AT" or the "Pinhoti AT" and we have an endowment that fully supports it at no cost to anyone, plus guaranteed funding from state/federal sources for their lands. Let's merge, Mr. and Mrs. AT!!!"

That might be a wonderful goal, but until it happens, I view, with a bit of a jaundiced eye, those who seem to want to become "part" of the AT so that their favorit project can get funded by it. You may not be like that, but it's awfully common, and it's unfortunate.

TW

[Cookerhiker]

Weasel I understand everything you've said and I don't question the validity of your position one bit. Your concerns are not without merit in that past attempts have been made to append the PT to the AT motivated by considerations that you've cited.

I felt you could have been less dismissive to the OP rather than calling him a troll. I didn't perceive him as a troll, I still don't, he's elaborated on where he's coming from, he appears open-minded, he's a fairly new WB member who appears neither to have an agenda nor is he a stalking horse for those that do.

And BTW it's not like I'm a big advocate for the Pinhoti - I've never even seen it! Not sure I ever will. And there's lot of other trails ahead in my queues, both for hiking and for funding & support. You know, so many trails, so little time...

[flemdawg1]

Yeah but then the trail would start in... Alabama. Really? Is that the image we want to be putting out there? Alabama? Come on. Alabama? No no I don't think so.

Yes because we all know that GA is the cultural center of the universe.:rolleyes:

[Delta-Dawn]

Yes because we all know that GA is the cultural center of the universe.:rolleyes:

Hartsfield-Jackson airport (for us earthlings) and Dragon-Con (for the aliens) actually make that statement very nearly true. ;)

[Luddite]

Yes because we all know that GA is the cultural center of the universe.:rolleyes:

Wrong. East Tennessee is the cultural center of the universe.

[ki0eh]

Heck, let's add the MST as a side trip to the beach while we're at it.

Yep, the Mid State Trail (MST) of Pennsylvania, leading away from the closer Great Eastern Trail connections to the A.T., does indeed lead to a beach (my section! :banana), at Cowanesque Lake (extra points for those who can pronounce "Cowanesque" ;) ) - it's all in the network, just like my Verizon cell phone (don't bother with AT&T in central PA! :D )

[TheChop]

Yes because we all know that GA is the cultural center of the universe.:rolleyes:

You guys aren't exactly rocket scientist over there you know.

[Cookerhiker]

Yep, the Mid State Trail (MST) of Pennsylvania, leading away from the closer Great Eastern Trail connections to the A.T., does indeed lead to a beach (my section! :banana), at Cowanesque Lake (extra points for those who can pronounce "Cowanesque" ;) ) - it's all in the network, just like my Verizon cell phone (don't bother with AT&T in central PA! :D )

OK, my 2011 ALDHA Directory just came in today's mail. The "official" designations as indicated on the inside cover:

Mid State Trail of PA: MSPA (sorry Ki0eh)
Mountains-to-Sea Trail of NC - not listed. What? Negligence! What an outrage! TN Viking or someone, are you going to notify ALDHA? There's over 150 trails listed but not Mountains-to-Sea?

[The Weasel]

Flagg Mountain, near Sylacauga, Alabama, is the southernmost Appalachian peak. Breaking News: The 762 acres of land between Flagg Mountain and the beginning of the Pinhoti Trail, which already connects to the AT, has just been purchased by the Conservation Fund.

With all due respect to Georgia's Springer Mountain, folks who want to hike all of the Appalachians need ship their packs south to Alabama. Once the particulars are complete, you would begin hiking in rugged, old growth forest along Weogufka Creek before entering the wooded mountains of the Talladega National Forest. Completing the Pinhoti Trail on the front end adds about 300 miles to the AT.

Realizing the economic boon that comes with a state having the southern terminus of the AT and the lobbying that would inevitably take place to preserve it, would the ATC expand the trail yet again?

So the informal poll question is:

*Do you value the tradition of starting at Springer and wish to preserve it?

*Or would you rather see the Appalachian Trail get longer by laying claim to all of the Appalachian Mountains?


Weasel I understand everything you've said and I don't question the validity of your position one bit. Your concerns are not without merit in that past attempts have been made to append the PT to the AT motivated by considerations that you've cited.

I felt you could have been less dismissive to the OP rather than calling him a troll. I didn't perceive him as a troll, I still don't, he's elaborated on where he's coming from, he appears open-minded, he's a fairly new WB member who appears neither to have an agenda nor is he a stalking horse for those that do.

And BTW it's not like I'm a big advocate for the Pinhoti - I've never even seen it! Not sure I ever will. And there's lot of other trails ahead in my queues, both for hiking and for funding & support. You know, so many trails, so little time...

Well Cooker, you might be right. Then again...

I went back and looked at the OP. I don't see any attribution to any newspaper, so if there was one, that wasn't my fault. And look at the rest of it again: It's not a "well wuddya think" request, but a post that is, for lack of a better word, a piece of hucksterism about how the AT ain't really "right" unless you "ship your packs to Alabama." If the OP wanted to be viewed a little more gently, perhaps a pretty clear implication that the AT was "incomplete" since it didn't start in Alabam would have been a better way to go about it.

Since his explanation, I've taken potshots at the message, but not - I hope - the messenger. But he needs to realize, too, that soliciting the "economic boom" of having the "southern terminus of the AT" maybe wasn't exactly as cool and "neutral" as he thought.

TW

[Cookerhiker]

Weasel, you said in your first post that this was a "sham discussion," the inference being we shouldn't even be talking about this on WB - that the issue had been discussed and discussed ad nauseam. Don't you at this point see the value of this thread if for nothing else, the OP by his own admission has learned something, especially from your cogent, insightful and articulate comments?

[SouthMark]

You guys aren't exactly rocket scientist over there you know.

Boy that's going to come as a surprise to the rocket scientist at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville.

[Mountain Dog]

I agree with MaxPatch. I've hike the Pinhoti and the AT. I love the Alabama Pinhoti and do not think it needs to be ashame of its history and absorbed into another trail. I also do not agree that any trail should try to attach itself to the AT just because it is a part of the Appalachian Mountains. If the Pinhoti has a claim then how about the Bartram. The Bartram already connects to the AT. Also how about the BM? It starts at Springer. We could call it the AT and let people choose their rout to Davenport. Alabama hikers have raised this issue before and even tried to get Alabama representatives involved. The Benton M people and the ATC objected vigorously. Another thought would be to just eliminate the names of all the lesser trails and have just absorb all trails into the Great Eastern Trail that now starts around Key West and ends in Main (I might be wrong about the northern end. I think Nimblewell went into Canada). Oh well, as you might guess, I do not really care!

[Cabin Fever]

To everyone making snide comments to those of us in the south:

We are not all hillbillies with IQs lower than 50. The south is just as advanced as anywhere else in the United States. There are rednecks and hillbillies in every state. It chaps my rear when people make comments like some have made.

As to the original subject:

Have the Pinhoti connect and get over the fact that it's not going to be an official part of the AT. It is just fine to be a part of the greater trail network in the east.

[SouthMark]

In 2010, a group of geologists representing the International Appalachian Trail began a push to extend the trail across the Atlantic Ocean, across Greenland and Iceland in the North Atlantic and into Northern Europe, then down to the Atlas Mountains of Morocco.

[Cookerhiker]

To everyone making snide comments to those of us in the south:

We are not all hillbillies with IQs lower than 50. The south is just as advanced as anywhere else in the United States. There are rednecks and hillbillies in every state. It chaps my rear when people make comments like some have made.....

Wait a minute - most of the snide comments on this thread are intra-south.:confused: namely GA vs AL.

Kind of like KY-WV feuding or MN-IA

[Hikerhead]

To everyone making snide comments to those of us in the south:

We are not all hillbillies with IQs lower than 50. The south is just as advanced as anywhere else in the United States. There are rednecks and hillbillies in every state. It chaps my rear when people make comments like some have made.

As to the original subject:

Have the Pinhoti connect and get over the fact that it's not going to be an official part of the AT. It is just fine to be a part of the greater trail network in the east.

Now hold on there Hoss...some of us are proud to be southern rednecks. :)

[endubyu]

Weasel, you said in your first post that this was a "sham discussion," the inference being we shouldn't even be talking about this on WB - that the issue had been discussed and discussed ad nauseam. Don't you at this point see the value of this thread if for nothing else, the OP by his own admission has learned something, especially from your cogent, insightful and articulate comments?

no longer than I've been a member I can tell weasel is just a troll, like a child begging for attention in what ever form he can get it - no longer worth a response

[Cookerhiker]

no longer than I've been a member I can tell weasel is just a troll, like a child begging for attention in what ever form he can get it - no longer worth a response

No I really don't think so. I don't always agree with him but often I do. He's pretty knowledgeable and well-spoken. My problem with him on this thread wasn't the substance of the issue, but his questioning the motives of the OP including labelling him a troll.



Counselor, I think you just set off Weasel, because this periodically happens on a normal basis around here. Pinhoti Trail has a story, ad placement, etc., and soemone from AL brings up the same discussion of possibly adding the PT to the AT.

Weasel just seems to be weary of the AL Tourism Board/Chamber of Commerce types yearly pushing this idea of extending. He probably mistaked you for one of those connected people, being your a lawyer from the state's largest city.

FWIW, the Appalchia's end actually is marked somewhere near Tannehill Stae Park. Flagg is the southern-most peak over 1000ft.


I think FlemDawg got it right.

[Cookerhiker]

........some of us are proud to be southern rednecks. :)

Ah, uh.......no comment.

[Hikerhead]

Ah, uh.......no comment.

You mean to tell me that you're not proud? :eek:

[Cookerhiker]

You mean to tell me that you're not proud? :eek:

Are you saying that because I now live in KY, I'm some sort of redneck?:cool:

I would never say such a thing.:p

[The Counselor]

Good discussion folks. Weasel - I'm gonna give you another chance. First beer's on me.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

I think what upset weasel is this talk about adding onto the AT to make it longer. :D

I suspect that there are people out there who have done the AT, and are quite proud of that. Egotistical in fact. ;)

The problem with suggesting adding to the trail and making it larger is that it threatens some types of people who have done the AT. :rolleyes:

They feel that somehow their AT hike will be invalidated if a new generation of hikers come along and hike a 'new' AT that is hundreds of miles longer. :rolleyes:

These are petty persons with little self worth.

Or, I could be totally off base and weasel is just upset at seeing the same topic come up again and again. If this is the case, I suggest to weasel and others who feel this way to choose to NOT click on a topic they have felt has been covered already. No one is forcing anyone to participate in any conversation here. :D

Or, weasel could be a 'troll'. Who knows, but being online for so long I do not sense troll, I sense frustration. :(

[TheChop]

Boy that's going to come as a surprise to the rocket scientist at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville.

;) Now you're catching on. The only reason I said that to him was I saw he was from Huntsville.

[flemdawg1]

You guys aren't exactly rocket scientist over there you know.

Actually we are!
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/home/index.html

I'm a helicopter engineer myself.

[flemdawg1]

Oops, missed the thread's end before responding.

[max patch]

Or, weasel could be a 'troll'.


no longer than I've been a member I can tell weasel is just a troll, like a child begging for attention in what ever form he can get it - no longer worth a response

I can think of a lot of adjectives to describe Weasel but "troll" is not one of them.

[The Weasel]

Good discussion folks. Weasel - I'm gonna give you another chance. First beer's on me.

I'll buy the rest of them.....

TW

[ki0eh]

Are you saying that because I now live in KY, I'm some sort of redneck?

From what I can tell Frostburg's a lot more redneck place than Lex. :banana

[veteran]

Flag Mountain has nice old fire tower built by the CCC.



http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4412736556_c0e0e319e8.jpg

[Bearpaw]

We've seen stranger.

Speaking of interesting conversations, which of the mountain bike clubs and equestrian trail clubs that helped build and still maintain portions of the path think absorbing their unique scenic trail into the AT is a good idea?

I do not know the particulars of the state by state politics of the Pinhoti Trail. I need to state that up front. What I will offer are some observations of someone who has hiked the AL and GA portions of the Pinhoti Trail and who has been involved in some of the bureaucracy/politics of building a long trail (TN's Cumberland Trail, on which I worked for 6 years).

It is worth noting the Pinhoti Trail really is two different trails. One is in Alabama. One is in Georgia. To the best of my knowledge, there are three maintaining/building chapters, the Pinhoti Trail Alliance (Alabama), the Alabma Trails Association (which handles the 12.8-mile portion from High Point Trail to Jackson Chapel Trailhead near Cave Spring, Georgia) and the Georgia Pinhoti Trail Association. When you walk the three sections, you see differences in style, both asthetically and functionally.

For example:


Maybe instead of making the trail longer if it ever gets connected to Flagg mtn. perhaps it could be another blue blaze trail?

The Pinhoti Trail in Alabama is blazed in three ways: the old school metal diamonds with the turkey track (since Pinhoti is a Creek word for "Turkey").
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/bearpawat99/Pinhoti%20Trail%20Jun%2009/003a.jpg

This was the original blazing. It is now being replaced by blue blazes as the primary blazing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/bearpawat99/Pinhoti%20Trail%20Oct%2009/008a.jpg

Interestingly, these are not the dark blue blazes of the AT, but instead a much lighter powder blue. This shade of blue blazing is found throught the PTA's portion of the trail. But when the PT enters the ATA's area, it shifts to the much darker AT style blue blaze.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/bearpawat99/Pinhoti%20Trail%2012%2009/050a.jpg

On a humorous note, the 34-mile road walk which begins the PT in Alabama is marked with yellow blazes on telephone poles along the road. WB moderator Cuffs, who has worked extensively on the APT, insists this was just a coincidence, but when you consider the AT implications of yellow-blazing, I have to grin and believe somebody on the PTA has a sick (and awesome!) sense of humor.

Once you leave the ATA's portion of the PT, the blue blazes disappear. Instead they are replaced by the diamond/turkey track blazing, now made of plastic at trail and road intersections, and the primary blaze at all turns on the 29-mile Cave Spring road walk.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/bearpawat99/Pinhoti%20Dec%2010/017.jpg

For most of the on-trail blazing, you get white blazes, sometimes neat AT-style rectangles:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/bearpawat99/Pinhoti%20Dec%2010/011.jpg

Other times very rough splotches.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/bearpawat99/Pinhoti%20GA%20May%2010/027.jpg

For the 15-mile road walk through Dalton, GA, the trail is well publicized and obvious with elegant green and yellow Pinhoti roadsigns, complete with arrows to point the way.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/bearpawat99/Pinhoti%20GA%20May%2010/059.jpg

The blazing tells a story, in its own way, about how and when the PT was built and considered in the different sections.


Here's what you need to do Counselor:

1. Get the Pinhoti off the roads and into the woods.
2. Get rid of the horses.
3. Get rid of the bikes.

Then come back and make your case.

1. I agree with you about the road walks. I mountain biked the Alabame road walk. I drove past all the blazes on the two official road walks. They would make OK slackpacks with a second night in a motel I suppose, but I was glad not to walk very much of them during my section hikes. The Dalton road walk would actually be kind of fun, as you could stop at stores along the way and entertain yourself, but the Cave Spring section would be mind-numbing.

On an important note, the PTA is taking the PT off the road. There is already about a five-mile trail walk down from Flagg Mountain down the south slope that loops around and joins the road walk closer to Sylacauga. They are also building trail from Bull Gap, where single track trail begins back toward Flagg Mountain, again shortening the AL road walk.

I do not have any knowledge of GA efforts to shorten the two long road walks.

2) Horse access is only allowed on the GA portion of the Pinhoti Trail. I saw some horse droppings in places, as well as some hoofprints, but never saw an actual horse during my section hikes.

3) Again, only the Georgia portion allows mountain bikes. I had three mountain bike encounters along the trail, one annoying, the other two fairly pleasant and casual.

It is worth noting that in the entire GA Pinhoti trail, there are maybe 10 total miles of new trail. Most is existing trails or cleared old roadbeds with a smattering of forest service roads and the two big roadwalks. Still, I found the trail scenic and pleasant, with fast relatively easy walking.

The Alabama portions are narrower, made of new trail. There are steeper climbs, rockier walking, a host of shelters (the only one in GA was built by the Alabama Trails Association), and a strong focus on hiking in a somewhat remote setting. Its proximity to country roads and homes left me with a feeling that I was walking something akin to Earl Shaffer's 1948 AT thru-hike described in Walking With Spring. It was enchanting. I positively loved it and I loved having the trail mostly to myself.

The Georgia portion holds a focus on multiple uses. It feels different, but still nice.

But you can tell there are very different intentions and feelings for those building in AL versus GA. Alabama seems to very much want to be an extension of the AT. The trail is a great hiking trail. In Georgia, the trail is well-maintained, I believe largely because of the mountain biking community. If it became hiking only, I suspect the trail's quality would suffer.

I absolutely believe Georgia vigorously prefers the AT stay just the way it is. Considering how many potential thru-hikers quit in the first 100 miles, towns like Dahlonega. Suches, and Hiawasse would very possibly notice a drop in revenues with a Flagg Mountain southern terminus.

Add to this the fact that the PT does not actually connect to the AT, and you have an even bigger obstacle. One has to hike 69 miles of the BMT to reach the AT's current southern terminus on Springer. And the BMT is not even remotely similar to the AT or the PT. It is much narrower in tread, offers only one shelter in the middle of a built-up suburb, and has a truly remote wilderness feel. While I could accept the Alabama PT being a comparable extension in character to the AT, I would absolutely fight any attempt to co-opt the BMT into the AT. It is dramatically different in character and it should remain so. As Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that."

I think ultimately what you get is the PTA, vigorously working to include the PT into the ATC. The ATA seems somewhat neutral in approach. The GPTA seems to hold no illusions or interest in the GPT being a part of the the ATC. I don't have any minutes of meetings to back this up or policy statements or the like as evidence. It is only conjecture from someone who has seen how difficult the bureaucratic process can be for building a long trail within a single state, let alone across state lines and multiple maintaining organizations.

The style of trail in the two states makes it clear the parent organizations have different philosophies, intentions, and focus. For this reason, I suspect the PT will never be an official part of the AT. I would love to see the Pinhoti Trail, especially the Alabama portion, better publicized. It is a truly wonderful walk, perhaps my favorite of all I have hiked in the southeast. But I can't fathom how it would realistically ever be an official part of the AT. And I really don't think that is a bad thing for the Pinhoti Trail.

Sorry for the rambling, but having walked the PT, the AT, and the BMT, as well as having built new long trail, I felt the need to weigh in with my thoughts.

[Roland]

Well written and informative post, Bearpaw. Thank you.

[Cookerhiker]

From what I can tell Frostburg's a lot more redneck place than Lex. :banana

I know what you're saying and I'd answer in more depth (my customary verbosity!) but don't want to contribute to thread drift (like that never happens:rolleyes:)

Just sayin' if F'burg is more r/n, I wouldn't say "a lot" more.

[Snoring Sarge]

At the rate the A.T. keeps getting longer, if 300 miles are add to south the end the trail and few hundred to the north end it will soon reach 3000 miles. At that length it will be dang near near impossible to thur-hike in a year.

Hike as little or as much as you want. 2000, 2200 or 3000 miles other than bragging rites what is point of hike further than you want to? Springer to Katahdin is enough and if not, by all mean go take a few extra trails to fill your bucket list.

[The Counselor]

Great post Bearpaw. I learned a ton and it's nice to read an interesting and informative post complete with pics and made without sarcasm or rancor. I am looking at my calendar to get in a PT section hike. Maybe one day I'll run into you on it.

[ki0eh]

The AL Pinhoti and a little bit of the GA Pinhoti (uncertain how much at this point) have been considered part of Great Eastern Trail, in addition to most of Cumberland Trail (except for the lollipop in the TN River Gorge). There is as yet some uncertainty about where in GA a new route will depart the Pinhoti and head through Chattanooga to the CT, quite possibly it will cross back into AL (maybe Little River Canyon area?) too.

The GET concept, although over ten years in public discussion and nearing five with that name and an umbrella group, just hasn't seemed to take off in the hiker's imagination yet.

[Cabin Fever]

The AL Pinhoti and a little bit of the GA Pinhoti (uncertain how much at this point) have been considered part of Great Eastern Trail, in addition to most of Cumberland Trail (except for the lollipop in the TN River Gorge). There is as yet some uncertainty about where in GA a new route will depart the Pinhoti and head through Chattanooga to the CT, quite possibly it will cross back into AL (maybe Little River Canyon area?) too.

The GET concept, although over ten years in public discussion and nearing five with that name and an umbrella group, just hasn't seemed to take off in the hiker's imagination yet.

Probably because the pool of people interested in such a thing is limited. Support for the GET would most likely dilute resources (volunteer and financial) for the AT. Of course more people interested above beyond the current pool would be great.

[Hobbler]

Great post Bearpaw!

Very informative and factual. So nice to hear the perspective of someone who has actually done and documented in picture the Pinhoti enroute to the A/T at Springer. Your details and facts concerning the trail through these 2 states should give us all a better understanding of the actual walk and a feel for its impression left on you. I learned a lot. Thanks again.

[Sierra Echo]

Alabama is for caving, not hiking in my book! I would be afraid of whatever mullet-ed creature I would come across.

[WisconsinHiker2011]

It might just be me, but I feel all 'trails' should be in the woods, not on any kind of road designed for cars.