PDA

View Full Version : Honest question...



TallShark
02-04-2011, 14:05
(I had this posted in the recent geocaching thread but it was kind of dead so I moved it here in hopes of an actual response. This applies to any number of backcountry excursions not just the AT.)

-ok question, and don't rip me to pieces guys but is it morally sound to cache a supply of whiskey, preferably of the single malt variety, that only you and a few others know about in hopes that you can alleviate carrying some exorbitant amount of weight just to have some deliciousness in the backcountry? A good scenario is a weekend trip in the backcountry where you carry a growler worth of delicious whisky deep into the woods and hide it, set the coordinates, and locate it for enjoyment the following years. And to make it fair mention it on a site like this and anyone (responsible adult) who inquired about it was given the coordinates. After all the growler is made of glass and scotch is pretty natural. I mean this sounds like the best idea ever, who wouldn’t want to fill up a flask with some excellent 18 year that they located in the mountains. After a long hike you come to a cache just for that occasion. Would it be wrong to bury it, I mean we do make cat holes after all and filling a hole in the ground with scotch is much better than filling it with toilet paper and, well… you know. Just an idea. Questions, comments?

Spokes
02-04-2011, 14:10
Hmmm, not sure. Have to consult the LNT criteria.

I did however know several hikers who packed out a mason jar or two of "mountain dew" whilst still in the Deep South. Didn't last long.....

max patch
02-04-2011, 14:13
I'm perfectly capable of carrying my own Makers Mark on my back. Why arn't you?

Sickmont
02-04-2011, 14:14
Its only okay for you to do that IF and only IF i find it first.....:D

TallShark
02-04-2011, 14:14
^ because makers mark is gross

TallShark
02-04-2011, 14:16
I really just liked the idea of comrodery amongst other hikers who i could share the wealth with. It would be neat to post back reports of how everone really like the particular scotch.... its just like geocaching but IMO much cooler.

fredmugs
02-04-2011, 14:17
I think it's a great idea. Personally I would not drink anything that had been previously opened.

Geocaching for liquor (or money) sounds like the only reason to ever do that.

TallShark
02-04-2011, 14:17
Its only okay for you to do that IF and only IF i find it first.....:D

I would happily give coordinates to any inquiring minds, thats the cool part.

max patch
02-04-2011, 14:21
^ because makers mark is gross

Don't dodge the question. Why are you incapable of carrying your scotch in your pack? Why do you feel the need to cache it?

TallShark
02-04-2011, 14:32
Don't dodge the question. Why are you incapable of carrying your scotch in your pack? Why do you feel the need to cache it?

That isn't the whole reason... It's more or less the novelty of the idea. I carry My own whiskey when I hike and don't mind it one bit, but the idea of having a growler full of good whiskey in the woods at a select location gets others involved. It seems really cool to me. Geocaching is some praised "game" amongst outdoor enthusiast but it seems kind of silly, at least my idea is pratical and imo more rewarding. I knew i would catch grief but people who want to hide my little pony figurines in tupperware containers get there own website. At least glass and scotch arent as harmful to the enviro.

Croft
02-04-2011, 14:33
Personally prefer whiskey. It's nice to share whether I carry it or another hiker does. But I'd hesitate to drink anything from someone else's cache unless they were drinking it along with me.

max patch
02-04-2011, 14:42
Paging Mr Weasel, paging Mr Weasel....

When the OP posts the coordinates and a couple of 16 year olds finish off the bottle and drive home drunk and get in an accident what legal liability to the OP is involved?

Tennessee Viking
02-04-2011, 14:47
As long as you pack out the empty bottles.

I have seen a few privies almost destroyed by beer cans and bottles.

Alpine Jack
02-04-2011, 14:52
I think this is a partially fantastic idea. However, only my inner group of fine gentlemen or gentleladdies may be privy to such locations. I have a new project; thanks TallShark. Cheers.

TallShark
02-04-2011, 14:52
Oh max patch, has being paranoid played a huge role in your life. These coordinates would be given to trustworthy friends in my life and the good and kindhearted friends i have met on here. Not random kids. Also, it wouldn't be within even a days walking distance of some random parking lot where kids could walk and find the whiskey, get drunk, hike back and drive away. I'm talking of hard to reach locations where the destination is the reward. Don't be silly maxy boy.

TallShark
02-04-2011, 14:57
I think this is a partially fantastic idea. However, only my inner group of fine gentlemen or gentleladdies may be privy to such locations. I have a new project; thanks TallShark. Cheers.

Ahh thank you jack, just the enthusiasm I was looking for. That's exactly how I feel. A group of good people I have met along my journey who share common interest such as hiking, friendship, and a good 18yr scotch would be let in on the whereabouts.... Not just anybody. I thought it would be neat to share with some good fellas on here as well, but not max patch i guess he doesn't want any.

max patch
02-04-2011, 15:04
I thought it would be neat to share with some good fellas on here as well, but not max patch i guess he doesn't want any.

I'm capable of carrying my own.

And like a few others have said, smart enough not to drink out of an opened container.

max patch
02-04-2011, 15:06
Oh max patch, has being paranoid played a huge role in your life.

People get in trouble when they confuse the highly unlikely with the impossible.

max patch
02-04-2011, 15:08
These coordinates would be given to trustworthy friends in my life and the good and kindhearted friends i have met on here. Not random kids.


I would happily give coordinates to any inquiring minds, thats the cool part.

Hmmm...wonder what the truth is.

Jack Tarlin
02-04-2011, 15:17
As long as nothing is left in the woods permanently, and as long as all empties are eventually packed out and properly disposed of, I can't see why anyone would object to this.

But I still can't see why you guys simply carry what you require out of town with you.

Also, I'd keep the number of people in on this plan small, unless you wanna be in for a really big surprise some day when you go to dig up your special cache. As Ben Franklin put it, three people can keep a secret only when two of them are dead.

TallShark
02-04-2011, 15:20
^ once again maxy boy, the inquiring minds on here are the trustworthy friends. You have to cautious, but not overly paranoid. I wouldn't just post it in the open and certainly not to you. I can see why this idea dosen't appeal to bourbon drinkers, due to the sweetness of such drinks you might attract bears or nascar fans.

IceAge
02-04-2011, 15:31
^ Now that was funny. And I'm a bourbon drinker!

Edited to add: I think this is an idea with potential. I can think of a couple places in Colorado I'd like to stash some good liquor.

Odd Man Out
02-04-2011, 15:32
As for LNT, I see lots of references to people who cache supplies such as water or food in remote wilderness areas where it would be impractical to otherwise carry it (such as the Grand Canyon), and this by people who are LNT kind of people. Given the lack of Talisker availability on the AT, perhaps this could be considered a similar "hardship"?

Also, why worry about an opened bottle? It's not like any bugs are going to survive in 40% alcohol.

TallShark
02-04-2011, 15:35
^ odd man out, Ice age. Thank you and cheers. After an exstensive background check via Max patch You guys will be the first to know.

sbhikes
02-04-2011, 15:46
While hiking in the local backcountry last year we came upon a big stash of liquor. Lots of bottles. We had fun taking pictures of ourselves drinking. It was too early in the day to actually drink it, though.

TallShark
02-04-2011, 15:52
^Sbhikes. That's unfortunate that whoever left it there made it so easy to find. In my mind I envision a gallon worth of deliciousness that when you do find it It's like a tasty reward. Also, the possibility of finding it without proper coordinates is highly, highly unlikey.

max patch
02-04-2011, 15:52
^ odd man out, Ice age. Thank you and cheers. After an exstensive background check via Max patch You guys will be the first to know.


damn pesky mexicans

Gee, I hope Odd Man Out and Ice Age arn't one of friends from south of the border. Anyone else you want to keep out? I heard you don't like people from Wisconsin either.

DesertMTB
02-04-2011, 15:59
While hiking in the local backcountry last year we came upon a big stash of liquor. Lots of bottles. We had fun taking pictures of ourselves drinking. It was too early in the day to actually drink it, though.


When is it ever too early to drink when you are hiking in the woods on vacation?

mike beckerman
02-04-2011, 16:02
Go for it. There is plenty of room in my backyard to dig your hole.
Mike

TallShark
02-04-2011, 16:20
Hahaha, ole maxy boy at it again, taking things out of context. Your credibility in this forum is shot as far as I'm concerned.

Now back to the topic at hand since I'm seriously considering such endeavours this spring... All who are in favor and show interest will be contacted, in all honesty I think it's a great idea. Hopefully there will be good guys walking the same path i take this spring who will inquire about the whereabouts and will get in on this scotchcaching in the future for and seasons to come. And as far as the bottle being contaminated I think thats a non-issue, thats what those fancy cups we carry are for.

max patch
02-04-2011, 16:23
I have a policy of not engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

Buh bye.

TallShark
02-04-2011, 16:25
in the future and for seasons to come fixed it...

TallShark
02-04-2011, 16:27
bye maxy boy see you later.

ebandlam
02-04-2011, 16:44
....-ok question, and don't rip me to pieces guys but is it morally sound ...

So you asked if it was "morally sound" to leave something (deliciousness or garbage - it doesn't matter) only to come back and get to it later (or share with friends). IMO morality has nothing to do with this activity.. But since you asked it in that context, do you have a moral problem doing this? or are you asking if the LNT principles play into the decision?

Secondly you didn't ask Max Patch's original question. If a bunch of kids do find it, are you responsible for the consequences (legal) of their actions.

Lastly, would it be okay for me to cache garbage or how about drugs in the wilderness - well I am going to come back and get it later...

TallShark
02-04-2011, 17:08
^e bandlam's not on the list either. Oh and to compare scotch to garbage and drugs is ridiculous. Also, I am an adult so I am aware of certain scenarios that could play out, I live in the same world you do. Being it was more or less a question of geocaching adult oriented items such as whiskey for a limited audience to enjoy I don’t think it falls under the morally unsound category. Wanting to follow my morals about how I live and respecting the wilderness, i.e. LNT is where the morally sound question came from. It doesn't have to but if ya'll want to get all weird about it and bring political correctness into the discussion be my guest.

hikerboy57
02-04-2011, 17:12
How bout cacheing them in a hiker box? conforms to LNT

TallShark
02-04-2011, 17:14
^ Bwaaah, yeah right.

ebandlam
02-04-2011, 17:19
TallShark, I am by no means comparing one with the other - to each their own. But one man's deliciousness is another man's poison. I am by no means making a value judgment on the whiskey you wish to carry. I take it for granted that people will enjoy it it responsibly until they prove themselves otherwise.

But back to my question - would it be okay to geocache any item? as long as I come back to get it?

Based on your response thus far, the answer would have to be yes. Right? ;)

Enjoy your scotch :)


BTW: You can strike me off the scotch list - I don't drink alcohol :D

Sickmont
02-04-2011, 17:27
BTW: You can strike me off the scotch list - I don't drink alcohol :D

“I'd hate to be a teetotaler. Imagine getting up in the morning and knowing that's as good as you're going to feel all day.” - Dean Martin

:D

TallShark
02-04-2011, 17:31
BTW: You can strike me off the scotch list - I don't drink alcohol :D

You didn't need to tell me that... I was fully aware of that with your first post. Also No, we as adults (most of us) have a God given talent called discretion. Discretion helps us determine that stashing heroin-laden needles in paper bags along the trail isn't very safe and certainly doesn't meet LNT standards. My discretion has also led me to check with the people on this forum of whether or not this was a decent idea. I knew it sounded ok but I wanted a second opinion. Through all of this and my ability to make educated decisions I have decided it sounds like a wonderful idea and in no way be problematic.

Ashevillian
02-04-2011, 17:45
I can give you some GPS coordinates to places where you can get your fresh hooch straight from the spigot. Just beware of booby traps, Cletus and Festus.

Papa D
02-04-2011, 17:56
it would be cool to run up on your cache, but if you are going to this remote spot anyway with the whiskey, why not drink it there and bring more next time. That said, I think caching whiskey or beer or wine or other products as a TRAIL ANGEL is a MARVELOUS idea and hope you cross my path - as long as it is sealed, properly sited, and for the purpose of another person's consumption I don't think it's nearly as bad (from and LNT) perspective as a campfire ring.

TheChop
02-04-2011, 18:09
From a backpacking stand point it's a little problematic. Anything close to the AT and reasonably well known would be gone in a flash.

My recommendation is to do the BMT or the Bartrum or a similarly lightly traveled trail. Having a tradition of bringing in whiskey and taking whiskey in a certain spot would be a really cool tradition for a smaller trail like that. Have a spot .25/.50 mile off the beaten path that was a bad climb down and back up. Call it a whiskey swap. Mark it in the guidebooks.

TallShark
02-04-2011, 19:32
^ This sounds awesome. We could have a band of brothers called the scotch rockets, or the whiskey bandits, or the braised beef briskets... and a new person could be initiated in the group every season. If he or she provided the stash for the new year and placed it in its locale you’re a member for life. Every year there would be a different spot each more challenging/ rewarding than the next. Keep it tasteful, keep it limited, and have guidelines. Since there would be a fraternity of like-minded people, use the organization as an outlet for environmental education and preservation. After all it’s important that we are proactive in preserving what we love so much, and what better way to do it than a fun underground society such as this… I can see it now, geocaching is about to take on a whole new meaning.

IceAge
02-04-2011, 20:35
I was thinking about areas even more remote, away from well-known established trails. Places that get maybe 30 people a year walking by.

Much less worry about "a bunch of kids" finding it (even though I doubt most kids would find Scotch appealing) and might encourage others to try some more out-of-the-way locations.

IceAge
02-04-2011, 20:38
Oh, and I vote our club is named the Dim-witted Mexican Open-container Drinkers

LIhikers
02-04-2011, 20:43
Ultimately the bottle will get left in the woods somewhere.
Just carry what you want with you on your trips.

Roche
02-04-2011, 22:45
In my mind I envision a gallon worth of deliciousness that when you do find it It's like a tasty reward.

A GALLON? Even in my best days...

But then again, why limit yourself to a gallon?

http://www.glenglassaugh.com/caskownership.htm

TallShark
02-04-2011, 22:59
^ you only take what you need out of the stash, its designed to last at least a year... a few seasons you know. when its gone you retrieve it. And i would always come back for my empty growlers... I don't need an excuse to hike, i love it.

Northern Lights
02-04-2011, 23:23
I think this is a great idea. You put in your favorite elixir, let those you want to know know where it is. And they 'pay it forward' by putting in their favorite. It will never be empty!

Bronk
02-05-2011, 03:15
Found a bottle of Jack in a tree with a shot glass on top at Carter Gap...we passed the bottle that nite and everybody got a shot. Found a few cans of beer in a spring or creek along the way too.

Leave no trace contradicts itself...don't leave trash behind, but if you find really old trash, leave it where it is, it has become an "artifact."

The Counselor
02-05-2011, 03:50
[QUOTE=max patch;1108118]I'm perfectly capable of carrying my own Makers Mark on my back. Why arnt you?

Oh joy another snarky comment.

The Counselor
02-05-2011, 03:51
I'm perfectly capable of carrying my own Makers Mark on my back. Why arn't you?

Good response to yet another snarky comment!

Awol1970
02-05-2011, 08:08
The part of this thread I find humorous is where people express fear of getting cooties from an unsealed bottle of Scotch that is hidden from all except those in the know.

Just hiking in general is a cootie laden endeavor.:rolleyes:

rickb
02-05-2011, 09:13
While I don't think this a good idea at all, might I suggest that if you go ahead with this plan you be sure to attach a note to the bottle with your real name, address and the date you put it in the woods?

The Weasel
02-05-2011, 18:35
Paging Mr Weasel, paging Mr Weasel....

When the OP posts the coordinates and a couple of 16 year olds finish off the bottle and drive home drunk and get in an accident what legal liability to the OP is involved?

Liability to the OP, cost of the stolen malt.

Liability of the OP, zippo.

TW

Skidsteer
02-05-2011, 19:03
Won't work. Someone will post the GPS coordinates on PirateBay.

TNjed
02-05-2011, 19:24
look man if just one of my hiking friend found that bottle in the woods that thing would be gone first thing, I'm just letting you know man

rickb
02-05-2011, 20:07
Liability to the OP, cost of the stolen malt.

Liability of the OP, zippo.

TW


I think it very possible that other attorneys might recommend against the practice of intentionally leaving a gallon of 80* alcohol unattended on public property, and then sharing its whereabouts with others over the internet.

Further, in the unlikely event minors were to come upon the stash and cause injury to themselves or others, I think it very possible that other attorney's might have no hesitation representing the injured parties.

max patch
02-05-2011, 20:33
Liability of the OP, zippo.



I'm no attorney, thanks for your response.

There is a lady in our community who wanted to be the "cool mom" so she bought alcohol for her high school son and his underage friends. One nite she bought liquor for one of the friends, the friend drove home drunk, did not navigate a turn and died in the accident. She is now convicted of a felony and is behind bars. I suspect she is also facing a civil suit.

While I can appreciate the difference between personally handing a bottle of liquor to a teen and posting the location of a bottle of booze on an internet site I certainly would be concerned about the ramifications - both legal and civil - that one would face if they broadcast the location of free alcohol and a teen was injured as a result. I'd be surprised if the parent did not file a civil suit in these circumstances.

max patch
02-05-2011, 20:40
The part of this thread I find humorous is where people express fear of getting cooties from an unsealed bottle of Scotch that is hidden from all except those in the know.



I haven't worried about getting cooties since about the 2nd grade.

There are a lot of nut jobs out there. Information posted on an internet site can be accessed by anyone - including the nut jobs. I'd be worried about a foreign substance added to the bottle; anything from urine to poison.

I think this is a lousy idea, but if this the only way the OP can figure out how to make a name for himself - and this is what this is really all about - then he should stick to unopened airplane sized drinks for safety reasons.

SassyWindsor
02-05-2011, 20:48
I've been involved in setting up caches once in a very unfamiliar territory. It's difficult to do unless you have very good info on road conditions, closures etc. You can have all the maps in the world, but they still want alert you to a bridge outage, trees down, or road just closed. If feasible, postal drops are the most dependable and probably the easiest.

Old Hiker
02-05-2011, 21:02
Oh max patch, has being paranoid played a huge role in your life. These coordinates would be given to trustworthy friends in my life and the good and kindhearted friends i have met on here. Not random kids. Also, it wouldn't be within even a days walking distance of some random parking lot where kids could walk and find the whiskey, get drunk, hike back and drive away. I'm talking of hard to reach locations where the destination is the reward. Don't be silly maxy boy.

Haven't read thru the thread yet - apologies if this is a repeat. My Scouts (11 - 17 yo) last year hiked 53 miles. I'm pretty sure other "kids" could do the same.

Still - closely guarded secret - highly trusted friends - maybe a few small bottles to sip, afterwards to pack out. I don't see much of a problem.

TallShark
02-05-2011, 21:45
I think this is a lousy idea, but if this the only way the OP can figure out how to make a name for himself - and this is what this is really all about - then he should stick to unopened airplane sized drinks for safety reasons.

Hahaha, make a name for myself, you good sir are a wiener. But to respond to the whole "anything on the internet can be found" that is very true but why would someone intentionally hack a personal e-mail account to find the whereabouts of a cache of scotch in the middle of nowhere... Sounds kind of stupid, also none of the guys that have had such a problem with this will ever find out, nor some unruly underage teenagers… trust me.

To answer the; “oh but you would be surprised of how easily teenagers can stumble upon such items” before someone says it let me say this, you would be surprised how thoroughly I would go to stash something, it would be impossible to find it without the coordinates.

TallShark
02-05-2011, 21:53
Haven't read thru the thread yet - apologies if this is a repeat. My Scouts (11 - 17 yo) last year hiked 53 miles. I'm pretty sure other "kids" could do the same.

Still - closely guarded secret - highly trusted friends - maybe a few small bottles to sip, afterwards to pack out. I don't see much of a problem.

I accept that apology because I was addressing the scenario (that max patch suggested) where a group of kids would hike in, find the stash, get drunk, hike out, and then drive away getting into some trouble.... and disputed it. That would never happen and already explained that but don’t feel like repeating myself. So in the spirit of not sounding like a jerk I’m going to put a smiley face after this comment. Read the thread first. :) I would never dispute the ability of kids to hike far distances.

rickb
02-05-2011, 21:58
To answer the; “oh but you would be surprised of how easily teenagers can stumble upon such items” before someone says it let me say this, you would be surprised how thoroughly I would go to stash something, it would be impossible to find it without the coordinates.

I thought you were going to share the coordinates not only with your close personal friends, but with people you know just from their posts on this web site. And also leave the growler for years to come.

TallShark
02-05-2011, 21:59
There are a lot of nut jobs out there. Information posted on an internet site can be accessed by anyone - including the nut jobs. I'd be worried about a foreign substance added to the bottle; anything from urine to poison.

^ you choose to be paranoid so be it, I'm going to follow through with this venture regardless, and nut jobs wont find the information. They arent looking for small caches of scotch, deep in the backcountry, and two days away from civilization.... They are usually trolling the internet, hard.

TallShark
02-05-2011, 22:04
I thought you were going to share the coordinates not only with your close personal friends, but with people you know just from their posts on this web site. And also leave the growler for years to come.

Very true ricky, after we have established friendships, trust, and a way to contact one another other than these highly accessible forums. I have already made friends through outlets such as these, namely this particular one, but do you think I would be naive enough to post sensitive information where it could be accessed by anyone. The whole establishing friendships before sharing the information is an important factor, I don’t know what your definition of friendship is but mine has a good deal of trust involved.

TallShark
02-05-2011, 22:11
^ oh and yes the growler, so long the contents were still inside, would be left until it was finished. I would then go retrieve it, as I stated before I don't need an excuse to hike. I think we have a bunch of really paranoid individuals on this website... all of my decisions in life have been what I, and most other people, find to be very calculated. This was a situation where I wanted and appreciate the opinions, but I also allow myself to realize the reality of this situation and how fail-proof it would be due to my careful planning. Thanks though.

ashleigh22
02-05-2011, 22:29
Good idea, I like it.. :)

TallShark
02-05-2011, 22:30
^ thank-you

Snoring Sarge
02-06-2011, 00:30
Between 1967 and 1991, Canadian Club whisky ran their Hide A Case campaign, secretly placing cases of Canadian Club whisky around the globe for intrepid adventurers and whisky enthusiasts to locate. Locations ranged from the Great Barrier Reef to the Pacific Northwest to Mount Kilmanjaro to Victoria Falls (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19790922&id=7v0NAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cnwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4363,5384836). In all, 25 cases were stashed at secret locales around the world and Canadian Club would release clues in the form of print advertisements. As of this writing, 9 of the original 25 cases still remain to be found by some lucky person.

{From About.com article}

The Weasel
02-07-2011, 21:40
I think it very possible that other attorneys might recommend against the practice of intentionally leaving a gallon of 80* alcohol unattended on public property, and then sharing its whereabouts with others over the internet.

Further, in the unlikely event minors were to come upon the stash and cause injury to themselves or others, I think it very possible that other attorney's might have no hesitation representing the injured parties.


I'm no attorney, thanks for your response.

There is a lady in our community who wanted to be the "cool mom" so she bought alcohol for her high school son and his underage friends. One nite she bought liquor for one of the friends, the friend drove home drunk, did not navigate a turn and died in the accident. She is now convicted of a felony and is behind bars. I suspect she is also facing a civil suit.

While I can appreciate the difference between personally handing a bottle of liquor to a teen and posting the location of a bottle of booze on an internet site I certainly would be concerned about the ramifications - both legal and civil - that one would face if they broadcast the location of free alcohol and a teen was injured as a result. I'd be surprised if the parent did not file a civil suit in these circumstances.

Big difference, folks, and Mrs. Palsgraf is the reason. Some lawyer might take it, and anyone with a filing fee can sue. But it's what is known in the trade as a "bowser." Don't believe everything you read about weak lawsuits; lawyers who file them tend to end up making their livings as baristas.

TW

max patch
02-07-2011, 22:09
Mrs. Palsgraf is the reason.

So it comes down to foreseeability (hey,I've got 2 courses of Business Law under my belt and a copy of Willmaker on my computer). And if something is forseeable enough that a warning was given beforehand.......

TheCheek
02-08-2011, 00:40
I like the idea and think anyone who wants to implement it should expect to recruit his own participants and establish guidelines and principles to follow. I potentially could see it getting pretty elaborate and the exact mechanisms should be discussed and agreed upon in a small group over a dram.

If I were doing it now I would personally start off with Lagavulin, and require that anyone of the group who retrieves it leaves a note of appreciation for the next person. There may also be circumstances where the bottle could be relocated. I would also have strict rules governing proper care in the cacheing in case it sits for more than a couple years.

The Weasel
02-08-2011, 05:00
So it comes down to foreseeability (hey,I've got 2 courses of Business Law under my belt and a copy of Willmaker on my computer). And if something is forseeable enough that a warning was given beforehand.......

"Foreseeable enough" is sort of an oxymorong: Either something is foreseeable, or it's not, and the absence or lack of a warning really doesn't prove much. A sign saying, "Danger, clumsy workers and possible explosive packages" still doesn't make Mrs. Palsgraf a winner (or loser) when some dolt drops something.

Putting a bottle of liquor's location in some kind of ad, internet or otherwise, isn't something that clearly and foreseeably puts the public at risk, just because someone can come up with a lot of "maybe, if maybe, then maybe" ideas. Sorry, folks. Cardozo was right (again).

Sorry, Max. A couple of biz law classes and a good trust program ain't enough. No liability.

TW

rickb
02-09-2011, 08:17
"Sorry, Max. A couple of biz law classes and a good trust program ain't enough. No liability.
TW

I might still defer to Max's legal training on this. In the end, what is foreseeable is a question that will be decided by people-- each of whom will come to their conclusions in a different way, right?

I could be wrong, of course.

In my experience, when a professional offers an opinion or suggests a course of action with the advantage of superior knowledge to my own, I will often ask them a simple pointed question: "If I were to ask 10 of your peers for their opinion on this, how many would come to the same conclusion". This question is not meant to suggest the person you are asking it of is wrong, but the dialog that follow can be illuminating. I have found it particularly useful when talking with both my dentist and physician.

Understanding that The Weasel has a superior legal education to Max's, I ask The Weasel, what percentage of his peers he thinks would conclude that a person placing a gallon of 80* alcohol on public property for the enjoyment of internet friends assumes zeros liability and legal exposure should something go a muck?

The Weasel
02-09-2011, 12:47
Rick --

With all due respect to Max - and I mean that - two business law classes isn't "legal training" much more than Red Cross Adult First Aid is "medical training." I'm sure he learned good information, but law school involves a total of 24 or so classes, and even then a law grad isn't really fully trained.

"Foreseeabililty" is, on the one hand, a factual issue that a judge (if no jury) or a jury will decide. But they will do so inside of a very specific instruction about what the law is on that topic, which they must follow. The judge, on the other hand, is going to know what the outer limits of foreseability is, and will decide the case as a matter of law if something is too remote. That's why Mrs. Palsgraf may have won in front of a jury, but lost in the New York Court of Appeals in front of a future US Supreme Court Justice, Benj. Cardozo.

Thus, is it "foreseeable" that if I put a bottle on public property and advise the world that it is there - as Canadian Club has, in fact, done - without anything further, that (a) someone unknown will take the alcohol; (b) that person will abuse the alcohol; (c) if that person doesn't she/he will give it to someone else who will (who may give it to another, and so on) (d) as a result of their abuse, they act negligently or intentionally to injury someone?

Yes, it is possible, but is it foreseeable? Well, the "but for" concept is only a starting point ("but for the bottle, no one would have been hurt"). "Foreseeabilty" calls for the harm to be capable of being predicted. In this situation, the "available bottle" isn't much different than the bottle at a liquor store: It can't be predicted that someone will buy it and necessarily injure others, although that frequently occurs. (Leave aside other factors such as whether the seller knew the buyer was a minor, or drunk, etc). So "possibility" isn't the same as "predictability".

How many of my peers - lawyers with experience in personal injury and alcohold-related injury cases - would take such a case? While that depends somewhat on the really specific facts, and also to some extent on the legitimately potential damages (not every death case is worth a lot, to be blunt), I'd say that very few would take a case like this, if any, absent other factors to enhance the case. While it might be worth a few bucks as a "costs of defense" settlement, few if any experienced and knowledgeable lawyers would take it with any expectation of any worthwhile recovery.

Does this mean it's a good idea, or safe? No. A lot of things can change that. But if all there is, is a bottle and a notice, it's a bowser.

TW

SassyWindsor
02-09-2011, 14:45
I can see vividly the draw, so to speak, of a bottle of one's favorite spirit cached ahead on the trail. Some would brave pits of other thirsty hikers, as well as pits of venomous vipers, to get to it. Possibly, crawl to it's hidden grave for retrieval and enjoyment. I would prefer a stash of my favorite lager, to be cooled in a nearby cold mountain creek.

TallShark
02-09-2011, 21:06
^spoken like a poet

shwn354
02-09-2011, 23:18
met a guy in 2008 who had gone from katahdin to somewhere in NC the year before. In 08 he started at springer and was going back to where he had left off. The year before he buried a bottle of bourbon near the shelter where he finished, so that the next year he could dig it up to celebrate the completion of the trail. seemed like a cool idea to me, though not quite as fascinating as some people are making it out to be. It's just a bottle of whiskey buried in the woods, and as somebody else said, it would probably be empty following its initial discovery, knowing how many hikers like to celebrate.

Warioto Walker
03-16-2011, 09:14
This year will be my first time on the AT, and this is one of my very few posts. I'm not a kid. I'm just a poor 'ol country boy with a family and little spare time. I don't want to know where your stash is, but I understand the cache, and if this was something that I was secretly a part of, I would leave a little shine if I found the cache dry. It's not 18yr old scotch, but it'll get you through a cold evening, and it's guaranteed to be single barrel. Cheers. :D