View Full Version : AMC huts hazardous to your health?
After reading dozens of Trail Journal stories and WhiteBlaze posts, it seems that an amazing number of thru-hikers suffer some form of stomach flu (gastroenteritis) while at a hut or within several hours after leaving a hut. Consuming food at a hut appears to be the common denominator. One post said that the water supply at one hut tested positive for elevated e. coli contamination. Certainly, the huts are the only refuge in bad weather (other than a stealth camp). Is there a consensus that thru-hikers should avoid eating or staying at AMC huts, except when bad weather presents no alternative? Is the AMC doing anything about this problem?
I stayed at every other hut and ate about 6000 calories at each one and didn't get sick.
I don't filter my water either - maybe my immune system is just a beast.. :)
Pedaling Fool
02-10-2011, 14:47
First I ever heard of this...
hikerboy57
02-10-2011, 14:53
Never got sick eating at any of the huts,even had delicious peasoup which niormally I cant stand, but when you're starved for calories, everything tastes great.
canoehead
02-10-2011, 14:58
When I've been to a hut we do our own thing up there cook, clean & wash no worries. Great option.
Blue Jay
02-10-2011, 15:27
I believe this to be some type of antiAMC fictional story.
That is what I was beginning to think.
I ran into 4 SOBO's in Lincoln, NH., all of which believe they got food poisoning from Madison Hut.
No problems for me, I rather enjoyed the food.
Ate at every hut I came to... either soup for lunch or had dinner and breakfast... never sick and I loved the splitpea soup
If you think it's fiction, read Slot Machine's 2008 Appalachian Trail Journal, among others (http://www.trailjournals.com). If someone had the time, the topic would make a good master's thesis because the data is there. I might be using the huts this summer and I was looking for some wisdom from thoughtful members. I think the suggestion to cook your own food and keep yourself clean in the Huts was good wisdom.
I was also intrigued by some pictures I saw in Trail Journals of people cameling up directly below a beaver dam. They don't call it "beaver fever" for nothing.
I'm not anti-AMC - I've never been there. Just asking questions...
Mr Boston
02-10-2011, 16:19
Another possibility is food poisening could also have come from their own dishes or dirty spoon or other cross contamination. Mabye a dirty mouthpiece from a water bladder or an unwashed water bottle. I am pretty sure that everyone washes and sanitizes their hands frequently. =)
I ate at every hut in the Whites last year except for Mitzpah. Food was delicious (ain't it always when you're hiking?) and no problems. Nor did I talk to any other hikers that had problems.
XCskiNYC
02-10-2011, 16:30
It seems within the realm of possibility. With the sanitary facilities the huts have, it might take more diligence for the people who prepare the food to ensure that they kept their hands germ free.
Actually, there may be laws covering the huts since, in effect, they are restaurants (or in any case places where food is prepared and served to the public in return for payment). It'd be interesting to know if the huts have to have health inspections just as any restaurant or similar establishment would need in most towns in the U.S. Maybe these local laws just aren't enforced. It's hard to imagine your typical health inspector agreeing to, let's say, make the stroll from Crawford Notch up to Zealand Falls Hut.
Tennessee Viking
02-10-2011, 16:43
OP has only 7 posts...more than likely a rumor trying to be started.
WB is never at a shortage of reasons to criticize AMC, but this is the first time I've heard complaints about the food. Many, in fact, rave about the homecooking they enjoyed there.
I didn't follow the link posted by the OP, but I suppose it's possible someone got sick. Even if the hut is responsible, though, it certainly is not a widespread problem. Lakes-of-the-Crowds, alone, serves more than 200 meals/day during the busy season. If this was a widespread problem, as the OP suggests, he would not have had to dig back to a journal from 3 seasons ago, to find someone who claims to have gotten sick on hut food.
It may be fun to bash AMC, but on this one, I call BS.
Sounds like an anti AMC rumor being spread. If you thru hike and get as far as the white Mountains and stay at any huts getting sick from some germs that you pick up shouldn't be a worry. By that time your system will be enmuned to germs.
Stayed at several huts. Worked fior stay at a few. Thought that the staff did a good job of keeping everything clean. The food they serve is great.
If you have a fear, stay away.
Most hikers get sick because of the personal hygine they keep. I hiked with folks who never washed their hands.
I always stay at the huts when possible, Great food and even homemade beer at the greenleaf hut this past fall.
We had a buy 2 nights and stay 1 free this fall - so we did the the zealand, galehead to greenleaf and turned out to be a great 3 night outing, well worth the money..
Pedaling Fool
02-10-2011, 17:05
It seems within the realm of possibility. With the sanitary facilities the huts have, it might take more diligence for the people who prepare the food to ensure that they kept their hands germ free.
Actually, there may be laws covering the huts since, in effect, they are restaurants (or in any case places where food is prepared and served to the public in return for payment). It'd be interesting to know if the huts have to have health inspections just as any restaurant or similar establishment would need in most towns in the U.S. Maybe these local laws just aren't enforced. It's hard to imagine your typical health inspector agreeing to, let's say, make the stroll from Crawford Notch up to Zealand Falls Hut.
I could think of a lot worse places I've eaten, especially overseas...But here in the U.S. I'm thinkin' of all them Ma&Pop resturants I've stopped in while on cycling trips. I don't think any health inspectors visit those places:D
hikerboy57
02-10-2011, 17:12
I would be much more concerned ewith all the AYCEs along the way.Hut food has always been excellent. If I found out that someone was hit by lightning, I would still hike, but I might be a bit more cautious. Same with food. Use proper hygiene when eating with others, and you shouldnt have a problem. And, if you've never eaten at a Hut. I suggest you try it.
the goat
02-10-2011, 17:12
i've stayed at evry hut at least twice, eaten as much as i could, drank the water and never got sick.
wrongway_08
02-10-2011, 17:17
Never got sick.
Ate lots of good food.
One of the nights our group had to "pay" by eating the browie pans clean!!! they were awesome and I could "pay" that every night of the year :)
Old Hiker
02-10-2011, 17:52
[QUOTE=rsmout;1111828]After reading dozens of Trail Journal stories and WhiteBlaze posts,...................QUOTE]
Dozens *emphasis added* = more than 24. List please?
Jack Tarlin
02-10-2011, 17:56
I have eaten meals, and drunk water at all of the AMC huts for over 40 years and this aleged "problem" is news to me. Never had a problem in any of my visits. Staying at the Huts will doubtless result in quick and surprising expulsions and emptying of one's wallet, but not necessarily one's gut.
Wow. Tough room tonight - lots of AMC members out there. I think I'll stick to what I read in TJ if I want to learn something about the AT.
By dozens I mean every TJ journal longer than five entries for 2010, 2009, and 2008, and a few from 2007. That's more than 24. I would guess that every fifth hiker in TJ for those years suffered a GI episode, mostly gastroenteritis, but also a good showing of giardia (beaver fever). I would also guess that of those that complained of non-giardia symptoms, maybe 25% got sick in AMC huts.
Does that sound like a rumor? Go read the journals.
I suppose someone will want me to write a paper. You can start holding your breath now...
hikerboy57
02-10-2011, 21:32
with the thousands of meals served at the huts every year, I'm not surprised that there would be some isolated instances, but keep in mind,thousands and thousands of meals have been served without incident. If you feel its prudent for you not to dine at the huts, there'll just be more leftovers.I'd be a lot more concerned about eating someone elses gorp.
Wow. Tough room tonight - lots of AMC members out there. I think I'll stick to what I read in TJ if I want to learn something about the AT.
By dozens I mean every TJ journal longer than five entries for 2010, 2009, and 2008, and a few from 2007. That's more than 24. I would guess that every fifth hiker in TJ for those years suffered a GI episode, mostly gastroenteritis, but also a good showing of giardia (beaver fever). I would also guess that of those that complained of non-giardia symptoms, maybe 25% got sick in AMC huts.
Does that sound like a rumor? Go read the journals...
Doubt I've read the most journals of anyone here, but I know I've read enough that if it was as you say, I would have seen it once or twice. I haven't read anything like that. I have seen reports of folks getting giardia after the whites, along the way in Maine. But again, very few of them.
Wombat Farm
02-10-2011, 21:56
Can't say I ever heard about this either. I am not a fan at all of the huts or the AMC but I'll say that's I've gotten plenty of water at plenty of huts and never had an issue nor ever heard of anyone who had. But...anything is possible, especially if it's isolated at one specific hut. Just another hazard of being on the trail I'd say...tough it out.
Groups of hikers often get sick from exposure to townsfolk, hitching, sharing shelters with others, etc.
It's nearly impossible, without specific tests, to find out what made you sick and where you got it.
With so many people recreating in the Whites, it would surprise me if any of the water sources were devoid of nasty bugs.
crazystick
02-11-2011, 01:48
They only poison the annoying ones.....
My ignore list (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=67978) is growing. I've learned that's the best way to deal with trolls.
mweinstone
02-11-2011, 02:23
if a resturant or food service outfit has an issue with dirtty food, everyone knows it. not just a few. we have a pizza place here in philly that you would be hard pressed to find a patron who has not gotton sick several times. its weird how they stay in buissnes. their famouse for it.
Pedaling Fool
02-11-2011, 08:59
Wow. Tough room tonight - lots of AMC members out there. I think I'll stick to what I read in TJ if I want to learn something about the AT.
No, if you look back on my posts and I bet others that have posted here, many of us are NOT fans of AMC. But gotta stick to the facts and not let prejudices play into it. And the fact is I've never heard of any problems and I never experienced any problems.
this is all news to me. I always stop at huts for water and a snack. I ate at madison and lakes during my Thru. felt great.
let me tell ya, if weather is bad you will beg to be able to stay in a hut.
Me, I think their food is fine, never met anyone who got sick.
David
peakbagger
02-11-2011, 10:19
It would be surprising if AMC had an issue with the water supplies at the full service huts (not to be confused with the AMC back country shelters) . They spent a lot of money about 20 years ago flying up portable drilling rigs to the huts to switch from surface water sources to underground sources. I also expect they have the water tested on some sort of schedule, although switching over to undergound sources probably reduced the testing burden compared to surface water sources. The huts are alos subject to the same rules and regulations as any other food services facilities in the state.
Given the high visibility of the huts, I expect any issues with the huts would be highly publicized. They did have a case of food poisoning several years ago at their weekly International Dinner and it gor plenty of publicity.
So if folks are reporting getting sick at the huts, other causes should be investigated. I have talked to many thru hikers over the years that reported intestinal problems after leaving town. They attributed it to "town food". Many speculated that it was overeating different types of foods in town than what they eat on the trail. Given the AYCE typically offered to thruhikers and the general ruggedness of the AT in the area along with the generally hot weather during the thruhiker season which contributes to electrolyte issues with some folks, I expect that the intestinal issues are not directly related to the huts cleanliness.
One other possibility is that the huts tend to attract a lot of families with children. Given the close quarters of the huts, it would not be surprising that various "bugs" could be on surfaces.
Blissful
02-11-2011, 10:27
I got very sick in '07 at Lakes of the Cloud Hut. Up all night with vomiting and the runs. You can read about it on my '07 trail journal. (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=201631)
I do not say the hut that year did it but something sure did as I never had an issue trailwise or in towns in my hike that year.
But no problem this past summer hiking SOBO. The food was super and so were the huts and croo.
Hmm, hmmm............One question:
If that's the case then why aren't the Croo's always sick?
Blissful
02-11-2011, 10:33
Well your immune system can develop resistance to bugs. That's why some hikers can go without treating water.
It would be surprising if AMC had an issue with the water supplies at the full service huts (not to be confused with the AMC back country shelters) . They spent a lot of money about 20 years ago flying up portable drilling rigs to the huts to switch from surface water sources to underground sources. I also expect they have the water tested on some sort of schedule, although switching over to undergound sources probably reduced the testing burden compared to surface water sources. The huts are alos subject to the same rules and regulations as any other food services facilities in the state.
Given the high visibility of the huts, I expect any issues with the huts would be highly publicized. They did have a case of food poisoning several years ago at their weekly International Dinner and it gor plenty of publicity.
So if folks are reporting getting sick at the huts, other causes should be investigated. I have talked to many thru hikers over the years that reported intestinal problems after leaving town. They attributed it to "town food". Many speculated that it was overeating different types of foods in town than what they eat on the trail. Given the AYCE typically offered to thruhikers and the general ruggedness of the AT in the area along with the generally hot weather during the thruhiker season which contributes to electrolyte issues with some folks, I expect that the intestinal issues are not directly related to the huts cleanliness.
One other possibility is that the huts tend to attract a lot of families with children. Given the close quarters of the huts, it would not be surprising that various "bugs" could be on surfaces.
Great arguments, and I think we all pretty much know this inherently, which the OP apparently does not OR might be purposefully ignoring. See this a lot here where there is the inkling of an issue and someone goes down a negative path and runs with it. Seems to me there is a more logical, and less sinister, explanation here, and the OP might take note of this if indeed they think they were making a legitimate point. Or, just a troll, who knows...
Not to say it couldn't happen, things can happen anywhere and with the close quarters at the huts, it would not surprise me if it were to happen. But, I'm pretty sure we'd all know about it through hiker community communication, and not just trail journals.
rambunny
02-11-2011, 12:14
Here's another spin-as far as northbounders go-it may be the 1st time they are around alot of children in the White's. It is true alot of hikers get the crud in the White's,could it be the exposure to germs?Wash your hands alot.
Two Speed
02-11-2011, 12:14
. . . They don't call it "beaver fever" for nothing . . . "The disease has been referred to as “beaver fever” because of a presumed link to those water-dwelling animals known to be carriers. However, it has been suggested that it is more likely that humans have carried the parasite into the wilderness and that beavers may actually be the victims. In particular, there is a growing amount of data showing that beavers living downstream from campgrounds have a high Giardia infection rate compared with a near-zero rate for beavers living in more remote areas."
. . . Go read the journals . . . Great idea!
I appreciate it so much I'm gonna suggest some reading material for you:Giardia Lamblia and Giardiasis With Particular Attention to the Sierra Nevada (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=119497#post119497). Right here on WB and free as a breeze!
Yeah, I know I'm gonna regret getting into this conversation. Talking common sense about hygiene . . . my bad.
the goat
02-11-2011, 14:00
"The disease has been referred to as “beaver fever” because of a presumed link to those water-dwelling animals known to be carriers. However, it has been suggested that it is more likely that humans have carried the parasite ......
i've had beaver fever since i was 12, haven't been able to shake it since.....
To the thoughtful members who responded politely, thank you for your observations, suggestions, and links to other information. Very helpful. My take-away rules are to filter/treat all of your water except what you buy or get from town or a house, keep your stuff clean, and keep the hands out of the goody bags.
As for the trashing and name-calling, I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.
envirodiver
02-11-2011, 15:08
i've had beaver fever since i was 12, haven't been able to shake it since.....
Treating the symptoms can be very expensive.
Sickmont
02-11-2011, 15:08
Treating the symptoms can be very expensive.
You got that right.
Let's be honest. It's called Beaver Fever because beaver rhymes with fever and we humans think we're clever like that.
i've had beaver fever since i was 12, haven't been able to shake it since.....
I think they mean Castor Canadensis feaver-- for which there is a cure.
The Old Fhart
02-11-2011, 20:41
rsmout –“After reading dozens of Trail Journal stories and WhiteBlaze posts, it seems that an amazing number of thru-hikers suffer some form of stomach flu (gastroenteritis) while at a hut or within several hours after leaving a hut.”
All the posts in this WhiteBlaze thread prove exactly the opposite of your claim. Where are the “amazing numbers” of complaints in this thread, or any other thread for that matter? So far you have made a claim using third-hand anecdotal stories that you can’t substantiate, and you call these rumors you’ve started “facts”. Unless and until you can offer any proof, you are displaying the characteristics of a creature that lurks under bridges. Note that it isn’t for others to disprove your claim, the burden is on you to prove your point. So far you’ve failed miserably.
rsmout –“If you think it's fiction, read Slot Machine's 2008 Appalachian Trail Journal, among others (http://www.trailjournals.com). If someone had the time, the topic would make a good master's thesis because the data is there.”
If anyone wants specifics on the above claim, go to: http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=246807 and you will see that Slot Machine stayed or stopped at several huts and never claimed the huts had anything to do with his being sick. (“LATE ENTRY: 2:30am - no sleep - something I've consumed has made me sick and I have been in the bathroom all night... “) Reading carefully you will see he picked up a mail drop the day before he got sick and you could speculate that it was much more likely that some of the food that had been setting in that mail drop for who knows how long was more likely the cause his problems than the fresh food he, and many others, got at one of the huts. If the hut food was at fault everyone would have gotten sick and we’d have heard that on the 6 o’clock news. He also continued to stop at the huts with no problems so he didn't have any concerns for the hut food. If you’re going to base your master's thesis using that for data, you aren’t going to graduate. :rolleyes:
Blissful
02-11-2011, 20:52
Just another observation = I worked in the huts several times washing dishes this past summer and I tried to be really careful doing it correctly with wash, rinse, and sanitize. (I know what needs to be done as I worked food service in concession stands). But I can see where corners can be cut with sanitation there (one guy at Madison did not know how to do it and didn't want to do it and was very thankful I showed up to help. In fact they didn't even instruct on how to do it properly.). The water was nasty and I changed it out many times. I am also a nurse so it was hard to see some of what is done. I'm sure they get instruction, but its good also for fellow hikers doing work for stay to know the proper technique.
Here's a quote from Mokay on her 2008 trip regarding Carter Notch Hut:
"The final straw in my hut discontent was the water quality test report that I noticed on the message board as we left. Apparently the well water here recently tested with fecal choliform bacteria, and had been remedied by the addition of chlorox. You would think that someone that has been drinking out of streams and lakes for the past 2 months would not care about that, but we had been trusting that the water here was potable without treatment. The sign above the drinking water faucet indicated so, and I personally don't think that posting a report on a message board constitutes sufficient notice to the patrons of the hut that the water may not be as clean as expected. At the very least the report should have been posted over the faucet, next to the "water bottles can be filled here" sign."
Here's the link to her post: http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?ID=248076
I know the post is three years old, but if you search TJ you can find more recent posts about stomach trouble in the AMC hut system, as well as other locations north and south. I think the
Perhaps the AMC huts have done something to solve the problems with water quality since then. If I'm up there this summer and I find a notice, I'll take a picture and post it. If I don't find a sign and don't have any problems, I'll let everyone know.
It may be a good time to point out correlation is not the same as causation and anecdotes are not the same as data. I see no data or any good reason for anyone to change their plans or boycott AMC.
I've eaten at Lonesome Lake and Madison Spring and thought that the food was good and I didn't get sick. Now, if you have ever seen the young college kids bringing food up to these huts, it is an interesting sight. I took the Valley Way Trail down from Madison to NH2 once and I passed about 20 young men and women carrying supplies for Madison up to the hut effortlessly. They were carrying wooden external packs with wooden boxes attached to them. Were these boxes refrigerated with dry or wet ice? I don't know. On a hot day, it is conceivable that, if the food was not chilled somehow, that spoilage could occur while being carried up to the hut.
Llama Legs
02-12-2011, 20:01
Where do you really think they get all that food on top of a mountain?
Soylent Green is people! :eek:
hikerboy57
02-12-2011, 20:11
So, in summary, if you distrust Hut food, stay away from it.I've eaten dozens of meals without incident, the huts serve thousands of meals annually, the Crus seem to survive, a few hikers have gotten ill, dont really know if it was a hygiene issue, doesnt seem to be widespread. If you're not sure, then dont eat ther. But the peasoup rocks!!