View Full Version : National parks might close
flatfeet
02-22-2011, 02:58
If the US government doesnt approve a budget by March 4th there is a possibility that the government will shut down "non essential" services. This happened one time in 1995. National parks were shut down. March 4th is the deadline.
There was a thread that began just like this the other day. It was closed after a discussion turned into an argument full of politics and death threats. Hopefully this one will remain civil. :sun
Pedaling Fool
02-22-2011, 07:48
I think it's pretty much a non-issue, but I guess the USPS could be an issue for mail drops/bounce boxes. Others have said that the parks will post rangers at the entrances of the park to turn back thru-hikers. I'm a little skeptical of that, but I don't know.
I believe Winton Porter uses primarily UPS, so probably won't really affect him too much.
the judge
02-22-2011, 09:53
I'm going to have to brush up my ninja skills so I can sneak by these Rangers.
The OP is not the full story. Three things can happen by March 4: Congress/President can pass/sign a budget, Congress/President can pass/sign a continuing resolution or neither. Only in the last case will the Government shut down (a la 1995).
AFAIK the USPS would not be (immediately) effected by a Government shut down. I believe they would stay in business until they "ran out of money". The USPS operates independently and only relies on budget subsidies to stay in the black.
Tuckahoe
02-22-2011, 10:09
I think it's pretty much a non-issue, but I guess the USPS could be an issue for mail drops/bounce boxes. Others have said that the parks will post rangers at the entrances of the park to turn back thru-hikers. I'm a little skeptical of that, but I don't know.
I believe Winton Porter uses primarily UPS, so probably won't really affect him too much.
Would the USPS be affected by a shut down of the federal government? I ask because as far as I understand the USPS independent establishment of the executive branch.
The USPS in not an official part of the government. They have a charter from the government to operate the mail system. The USPS is one of two monopolies left by the feds to operate in the country the other is Major League Baseball.
colonel r
02-22-2011, 10:31
During the '95 shutdown in the GSMNP, only cars were restricted. The closed all the roads which had gates. Hiking and cycling were either ignored or permitted. I don't know which. I hiked then and a friend of my rode his bike up in the Greenbriar area.
Thenixon
02-22-2011, 10:39
During the '95 shutdown in the GSMNP, only cars were restricted. The closed all the roads which had gates. Hiking and cycling were either ignored or permitted. I don't know which. I hiked then and a friend of my rode his bike up in the Greenbriar area.
Yeah, it would seem to me that if they wanted to try and keep hikers out, they'd have to ADD additional rangers, not furlough them. Doesn't seem very high on the "essential' lost to me.
LoneRidgeRunner
02-22-2011, 11:10
Others have said that the parks will post rangers at the entrances of the park to turn back thru-hikers. I'm a little skeptical of that, but I don't know.
.
Doesn't make sense to me... If the park is closed why would there be rangers?
double d
02-22-2011, 11:12
What is interesting is that by closing the NPS, the Feds would lose revenue due to losing the money they charge at the entrance gates. My wife and I have been to many national parks in our great country and we have paid to get into most of them if by car.
double d
02-22-2011, 11:15
Doesn't make sense to me... If the park is closed why would there be rangers?
Many Federal employees (such as the 12,000 agents of the FBI and the U.S. military) would still have to show up for work the next day after the shut down. I'm not sure if that is true of Park Rangers, but many of them are also cross trained in law enforcement, search-rescue, etc. and would be deemed by the Feds as employees who had to continue working.
WalkingUSA
02-22-2011, 11:16
The government wont stop me from hiking where I please. Never has, never will. If they station people at trail heads I will simply bushwhack a mile around them.
Pedaling Fool
02-22-2011, 13:51
AFAIK the USPS would not be (immediately) effected by a Government shut down. I believe they would stay in business until they "ran out of money". The USPS operates independently and only relies on budget subsidies to stay in the black.
I think that's probably correct.
I know the USPS is separate from the U.S. Govt, but not completely. I don't fully understand how it works, but I do know they receive some money from the govt and the rest they raise on their own. However, the GAO does review their financial status. And they are having some real financial problems now and that does cost us tax payers. http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-09-475T I'm not sure if you can characterize the USPS's financial situation as being in the "black".
As for posting rangers at the AT entrances to various parks, like I said, I'm very skeptical of that, it's just what I've read others as reporting.
So my thoughts are still unchanged:
It's basically a non-issue, postal service would probably be my only concern -- but I would bet on them remaining open.
And also as hikemor said, this is not at all a foregone conclusion.
Alligator
02-22-2011, 14:02
There was a thread that began just like this the other day. It was closed after a discussion turned into an argument full of politics and death threats. Hopefully this one will remain civil. :sunThere was some trolling going on there.
Please keep the discussion to how it will affect hikers and/or the AT.
Pedaling Fool
02-22-2011, 14:11
Here's an article from last year talking about doing away with saturday service, but congress wouldn't let them change the "out-dated" law. That's why I'm confused on how this interface between the govt and USPS works:confused: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6259683-503544.html
Social security administration is already making plans for govt shut down.
Pringles
02-22-2011, 14:37
I'm hoping the shutdown doesn't happen. I'm going to Florida for the first time in 31 years. I hope to get to the Everglades and Big Cypress and the DeSoto National Memorial. I will be driving, and I really want to see these places. I just want to see my country. If "they" can't get together to make it work and keep the parks open, I'm blaming everybody from George Washington forward.
Grumble, grumble, grumble...
Pringles
The park system is part of what makes this country great. We as a country need to spend more time in our national parks not less. I hope and pray that this gets resolved without affecting the park system.
WingedMonkey
02-22-2011, 15:09
During the '95 shutdown in the GSMNP, only cars were restricted. The closed all the roads which had gates. Hiking and cycling were either ignored or permitted. I don't know which. I hiked then and a friend of my rode his bike up in the Greenbriar area.
They also closed all campgrounds and locked all bathrooms in GSMNP. Not something most tru hikers need.
WingedMonkey
02-22-2011, 15:20
It's difficult to predict how the current government would respond to a shutdown, because each federal agency is responsible for crafting and updating its own "shutdown plan." Those plans are not made public.
Each Department, including NPS and USFS, has a shutdown plan that defines the essential functions that must be performed in the face of a general shutdown of Government services. Essential functions typically include security, emergency services, perhaps utility services, etc. The AT hiker would likely face "officially closed" NPS parks but only a few LE rangers and, maybe, some fire fighters still on the job. As far as USFS, could they close a forest?
WingedMonkey
02-22-2011, 17:09
In 1995 Shenandoah Drive (Blue Ridge Parkway) remained open but most employees were furloughed. Peaks of Otter Lodge owned by the federal government but run by private contractors was also closed. Again no affect on trails, except for maintenance and repair. Then again about that time it was also one of the worst winter storms to hit the area.
restless
02-22-2011, 18:10
If a shutdown occurs, there won't be Park Rangers posted at trailheads. There are just not enough Rangers to do that. The National Forest trails wouldn't be shutdown, but you could find it getting to your favorite trailhead-like Springer Mtn-due to locked gates. Who it would affect is the people like me who depend on their checks and their jobs with the government to pay the bills, to put groceries on the table and has in the car. Even though I work for the Park Service, I doubt I would be considered "essential personnel" and would have to stay home until things got sorted out.
Pedaling Fool
02-22-2011, 18:28
If a shutdown occurs, there won't be Park Rangers posted at trailheads. There are just not enough Rangers to do that. The National Forest trails wouldn't be shutdown, but you could find it getting to your favorite trailhead-like Springer Mtn-due to locked gates. Who it would affect is the people like me who depend on their checks and their jobs with the government to pay the bills, to put groceries on the table and has in the car. Even though I work for the Park Service, I doubt I would be considered "essential personnel" and would have to stay home until things got sorted out.
Were you employed by them during the Nov. '95 shutdown? If so how did if affect you?
Being in the Navy at the time, I hardly remember the shutdown. I guess I was "essential":D
Ashevillian
02-22-2011, 18:32
After a brief search here's what was reported in th '95 shutdown...
Various effects on agencies serving the public. Though sometimes difficult to verify and quantify, the CRS study provided the following examples of reported impacts on the public at large of the 1995 shutdown:
no new patients were accepted into clinical research trials at the National Institutes of Health (NIH)
NIH disease hotlines were closed
the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) stopped disease surveillance
toxic waste clean-up work at more than 600 sites was stopped
delays in processing of alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives applications by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF)
work on more than 3,500 bankruptcy cases was suspended
cancellation of the recruitment and testing of federal law-enforcement officials, including the hiring of 400 border patrol agents
delay in the processing of delinquent child-support cases
closure of 368 National Park Service sites, with an estimated loss of 7 million visitors and accompanying tourism revenues to local communities
closure of national museums and monuments, with an estimated loss of 2 million visitors
approximately 20,000-30,000 visa applications by foreigners unprocessed each day
200,000 applications for passports unprocessed
U.S. tourism industries and airlines reportedly sustaining millions of dollars in lost revenues
multiple services for military veterans were halted, ranging from health and welfare to finance and travel
approximately $3.7 million of Washington. DC-area federal contracts were adversely affected
I do remember driving on the BRP tho...didn't hike in the the GSNP at that time so I can't comment on that.
Lone Wolf
02-22-2011, 20:19
AT walkers ain't gotta worry. just walk
fredmugs
02-22-2011, 20:22
Were you employed by them during the Nov. '95 shutdown? If so how did if affect you?
Being in the Navy at the time, I hardly remember the shutdown. I guess I was "essential":D
I'm guessing you were on active duty at the time. I work on a Navy base in Indiana and I was actually in San Diego and had to come back early and continue working since we had money. The civil service types in DC all went home and stayed home. Then after the budget was passed they were retroactively paid.
Alright guys. No need to cross swords over this. :D
Time for a deep breath.
Toolshed
02-22-2011, 20:41
Wow... that Gator came outta the water from nowhere!!!! Chomp!!!!! :banana
SassyWindsor
02-22-2011, 20:41
Much ado about nothing
Wow... that Gator came outta the water from nowhere!!!! Chomp!!!!! :banana
Just lookin' out for ya, guys. Sometimes we need reminding. ;)
Skidsteer
02-22-2011, 21:01
After a brief search here's what was reported in th '95 shutdown...
Various effects on agencies serving the public. Though sometimes difficult to verify and quantify, the CRS study provided the following examples of reported impacts on the public at large of the 1995 shutdown:
delays in processing of alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives applications by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF)
That's just Un-American.
restless
02-22-2011, 21:06
Question for the moderator-why are some posts removed? PM me if best. just wondering.
Pedaling Fool
02-22-2011, 21:07
I'm guessing you were on active duty at the time. I work on a Navy base in Indiana and I was actually in San Diego and had to come back early and continue working since we had money. The civil service types in DC all went home and stayed home. Then after the budget was passed they were retroactively paid.
Would it happen to be NSWC CRANE? I've been to NSWC Crane a few times for weapons and night vision training.
Toolshed
02-22-2011, 21:13
Question for the moderator-why are some posts removed? PM me if best. just wondering.
Probably to keep it from looking like the other thread? ;):D
restless
02-22-2011, 21:16
Probably to keep it from looking like the other thread? ;):D
But you an I were engaged in such a lively discussion:D
Toolshed
02-22-2011, 21:16
Just lookin' out for ya, guys. Sometimes we need reminding. ;)
Roland, I wasn't referring to you. It was a real live Gator, lying deep in the murky water...seriously.....:D
Toolshed
02-22-2011, 21:19
But you an I were engaged in such a lively discussion:D
Yeah but from 12 feet below us, we looked like two juicy little sweet tasting antelopes splashing across the swamp... :eek:
Roland, I wasn't referring to you. It was a real live Gator, lying deep in the murky water...seriously.....:D
Yeah, I didn't notice the deleted posts until later.
Given how quickly a similar thread deteriorated last night, I expected this one was being watched carefully. I was just trying to keep you guys from stepping in a pile of crap.
All's well that ends well.
Alligator
02-22-2011, 21:25
Anyway, any other recollections about how hikers might be affected here? It does seem rather minor (barring employment problems). If it even happens, it is likely to be a short timeframe.
restless
02-22-2011, 21:27
Overall hikers will probably be affected very little. Only difficulty I would see for hikers is trying to access trailheads-Skyline Drive would probably be closed and some forest service roads gated.
Pedaling Fool
02-22-2011, 21:37
The worst possible scenario I can think of is not getting a milkshake in SNP:)
Question, HOW long was everything closed? I heard it was a week. Anyone confirm?
Less that a week, I believe during the last shut down.
Lone Wolf says it..just keep walking.
Essential employees include law enforcement.
Lemni Skate
02-23-2011, 02:27
The idea of hiking the AT through Shenandoah without all the road noise (especially those dagnabit motorcyles) is pretty good.
However, many thru hikers seem to comment on liking Shenandoah National Park because they didn't have to carry much food as there are 4 stops with restaurants and/or groceries in the park.
Not getting to chow down at Skyland would be disappointing.
I do hate that they might have to close down some of the National Parks, but there's no telling what some idiots might end up doing in Mammoth Cave or Volcano National Park with no rangers to control them or save them.
double d
02-23-2011, 04:29
They also closed all campgrounds and locked all bathrooms in GSMNP. Not something most tru hikers need.
Well WingedMonkey, I enjoy your posts, but on this one, I would just say that they could go PooPoo in the woods and then use the shelter system.
Fiddleback
02-23-2011, 10:47
A Federal government shutdown is extremely unlikely. But it's always good to do a little 'what if' planning.;)
FB
Ashevillian
02-23-2011, 11:00
Are the GSNP and SNP bears and mice to be furloughed as well? I certainly would view them as nonessential staff during a government shutdown.
fredmugs
02-23-2011, 11:16
Would it happen to be NSWC CRANE? I've been to NSWC Crane a few times for weapons and night vision training.
Yep - I work in the Small Arms division.
Well crap, I guess it's time to do the "what if" planning just as FB said. I suppose I'll go right up the road to Barren River Lake and camp out there somewhere. Boring, but oh well.
Mammoth cave would be raving with people wanting to drive in and do drugs. Huge mess on the law enforcements hands.
WingedMonkey
02-23-2011, 13:50
Well WingedMonkey, I enjoy your posts, but on this one, I would just say that they could go PooPoo in the woods and then use the shelter system.
Like I said..."NOT something most thru hikers need"
DaSchwartz
03-01-2011, 20:25
Would they suspend the reserving of SNP shelters for outside groups giving access to thru-hikers without hoardes of weekend warriors?
johnnybgood
03-01-2011, 20:50
Would they suspend the reserving of SNP shelters for outside groups giving access to thru-hikers without hoardes of weekend warriors?
Shelters in SNP are not reservable , first come= first get
I can not see how the Fed could close down the parks to through hikers. It would take too many resources.
I can not see how they could close down the parks because they would be in breach of contracts with the groups which run operations in the parks (think vendors). Additionally, anyone who has paid for their year long pass would have the ability to have a class action law suit against the Gov.
All in all, no agency wants to consider it's self not essential. Because all non-essential people could be CUT if for budgetary reasons.
AT walkers ain't gotta worry. just walk
that should be on a t-shirt
Shelters in SNP are not reservable , first come= first get
Maybe he meant GSMNP?
double d
03-02-2011, 16:39
Like I said..."NOT something most thru hikers need"
Its called a "cat hole".
WingedMonkey
03-02-2011, 18:08
Its called a "cat hole".
I think you misread the whole original post:
colonel r said:
During the '95 shutdown in the GSMNP, only cars were restricted. The closed all the roads which had gates. Hiking and cycling were either ignored or permitted. I don't know which. I hiked then and a friend of my rode his bike up in the Greenbriar area.
I added:
They also closed all campgrounds and locked all bathrooms in GSMNP. Not something most tru hikers need.
So in other words....in addition to roads and gates, they locked bathrooms and campgrounds....something I didn't think hikers needed.
Now all that said, some thru hikers do use campgrounds to meet someone for resupply or to visit family, not many. Some hikers line up at the indoor plumbing at Clingman's Dome like it was gonna be that last porcelain toilet or running water they were ever gonna see.
Again....It's NOT NEEDED
:sun
Nearly Normal
03-02-2011, 18:20
Question for the moderator-why are some posts removed? PM me if best. just wondering.
That would be best answered here so we all know!
Wise Old Owl
03-02-2011, 20:07
Restless for your file box, it is very straight forward. if you see a post that is a flaming fuse of a fire cracker, and already folks have flagged it - which causes a email and PM to end up in your inbox because some nut has more sensitivity than you do... so be it, its soft deleted. You are an adult what part of what was posted really needs to be explained? In some rare cases they are edited, to reduce the explosion. Please keep in mind I know nothing about what I am talking about. - I am not even the messenger.
restless
03-02-2011, 20:41
That would be best answered here so we all know!
The moderator contacted me and explained why the posts were deleted. The moderator was gracious enough to respond and explain the situation. I'm satisfied with the explanation and will leave it there.
Wise Old Owl
03-02-2011, 21:11
Glad you have it resolved... At some point in your life, understand its just not personal!
I work for the CDC. If we shut down I plan on putting on my pack and starting at Springer and see how far I can get before I have to get off the trail.
Smoky MNT National Park and Shenandoah National Park are very popular, They will probably stay open. The Parks are still hiring as well.
wythekari
03-03-2011, 02:09
House and Senate approved a Continuing Resolution through 3/18/11 and the President signed it today. So National parks are funded through that date. Hopefully the legislative and executive branches will resolve the budget for the remainder of the federal fiscal year by then and this thread will be moot. If no federal budget after that date and you come to a closed gate on the trail, look left and then right, hop the gate, or duck under, and continue walking.
northernstorm
03-04-2011, 20:05
please say it isn't so. i have heard rumors but does anyone officially know if parks are closing? i start my thru tomorrow afternoon. pleaser tell me what you have heard if anything. thanks a bunch. happy trails!
northstorm- Is this about the federal Budget? if so they passed an emergency budget for 2 weeks till congress gets their act together. Thats what I am presumeing your speaking of...
you should be fine i dont think anythng is goin to happen to the trail as in it bein blockd off so u cant walk it u might not be able to snag a bite to eat in the shennys or somthn but ull be able to walk it i doubt there will be anythng stoping u from following the blazes to maine.. walk around if anythng.
Pedaling Fool
03-04-2011, 20:13
Non-issue, it's already been discussed in this thread and everyone agrees it's a non-issue. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69739&highlight=national+parks
please say it isn't so. i have heard rumors but does anyone officially know if parks are closing? i start my thru tomorrow afternoon. pleaser tell me what you have heard if anything. thanks a bunch. happy trails!
You may run into many things on the trail that will tempt you to abandon your hike. But a locked gate or a belligerant guard at a trail crossing won't be one of them.
Furlough
03-05-2011, 09:02
House and Senate approved a Continuing Resolution through 3/18/11 and the President signed it today. So National parks are funded through that date. Hopefully the legislative and executive branches will resolve the budget for the remainder of the federal fiscal year by then and this thread will be moot. If no federal budget after that date and you come to a closed gate on the trail, look left and then right, hop the gate, or duck under, and continue walking.
At this point even if the 2 do reach a budget agreement, it looks like both sides will agree to a 10 day furlough of federal government employees. This will be a non-paid furlough used as a means to help cut the budget. The discussions here are that the 10 days will be allowed to be spread out across the entire year and not have to be taken consecutively. This way the government saves pay dollars, the employee does not have a pay period where he/she is out 10 days pay and services do not have to be shut down at all. So when all is said and done it looks like Furlough will get furloughed.
Skidsteer
03-05-2011, 21:27
At this point even if the 2 do reach a budget agreement, it looks like both sides will agree to a 10 day furlough of federal government employees. This will be a non-paid furlough used as a means to help cut the budget. The discussions here are that the 10 days will be allowed to be spread out across the entire year and not have to be taken consecutively. This way the government saves pay dollars, the employee does not have a pay period where he/she is out 10 days pay and services do not have to be shut down at all. So when all is said and done it looks like Furlough will get furloughed.
Think of the money we could save if we furloughed both Houses of Congress for a year.
If they "close" then who would be there to guard the fences and gates?
Graywolf
03-05-2011, 21:44
Dont know if this has been brought up, but if it has, sorry about the repeat. The AT is connected with the NPS BUT is not ran or maintatined by the NPS. It is fuuly conducted by Trail Clubs and Volunteers. I think it is very unlikely the AT will shut down. Even in the GSMNP and SNP, the Trail will still be open to hikers. As one posted stated, just hike! Its that simple.
Upon looking at the history of these shutdowns, they are usually resolved rather quickly. In the case that you maybe starting out NOW, if you start in the next couple of weeks, it is very likely the Parks will be reopened..These shutdowns do not last long.
.....Unless Obama takes another vacation...
Dont know if this has been brought up, but if it has, sorry about the repeat. The AT is connected with the NPS BUT is not ran or maintatined by the NPS. It is fuuly conducted by Trail Clubs and Volunteers. I think it is very unlikely the AT will shut down. Even in the GSMNP and SNP, the Trail will still be open to hikers. As one posted stated, just hike! Its that simple.
Upon looking at the history of these shutdowns, they are usually resolved rather quickly. In the case that you maybe starting out NOW, if you start in the next couple of weeks, it is very likely the Parks will be reopened..These shutdowns do not last long.
.....Unless Obama takes another vacation...
There's only been one shutdown in modern history. And shutdowns have nothing to do with presidential vacations. All Presidents take time off from time to time. Our government keeps running regardless of whether presidents are on vacation.
Shutdowns happen when Congress refuses to appropriate the money needed to pay for the services it has already authorized.
The one shutdown occurred when Congress during President Clinton's first term refused to appropriate the money needed to pay the bills required by previously approved government services -- such as collecting taxes, fighting wars, and running the various federal agencies, including the National Park Service.
That time, Congress approved money for a few critical services, and required other agencies of government to close. Under our system of government, no money can be spent that has not first been appropriated by Congress.
BTW, except for a few state lands, the Appalachian Trail is almost wholly on federal property. Volunteers in fact do much of the trail work, but the National Park Service and other state agencies remain ultimately responsible for setting the rules and making sure they are followed. The federal agencies also provides a lot of the needed money.
The money is funnelled through ATC, but several million federal dollars are spent annually assisting in trail maintenance activities. For instance, the proposed MATC proposed $263,000 budget for 2011 includes $58,000 from the ATC grants to clubs program, much or all of which comes from money ATC gets from the National Park Service.
WingedMonkey
03-06-2011, 02:38
Dont know if this has been brought up, but if it has, sorry about the repeat. The AT is connected with the NPS BUT is not ran or maintatined by the NPS. It is fuuly conducted by Trail Clubs and Volunteers. I think it is very unlikely the AT will shut down. Even in the GSMNP and SNP, the Trail will still be open to hikers. As one posted stated, just hike! Its that simple.
Upon looking at the history of these shutdowns, they are usually resolved rather quickly. In the case that you maybe starting out NOW, if you start in the next couple of weeks, it is very likely the Parks will be reopened..These shutdowns do not last long.
.....Unless Obama takes another vacation...
And what does anyone's vacation have to do with the Congress passing a budget??
I was going to get Amtrak tickets, does anyone know if Amtrak will shut down?
WingedMonkey
03-07-2011, 19:55
I was going to get Amtrak tickets, does anyone know if Amtrak will shut down?
They are a "self supported" enity. Only time they are a problem is if they are talking strike, and that's been a while.