What is proper trail etiquet for pooping in the woods?

[SiuWonfung]

Good trail etiquet is important in mantaining a respectable and friendly hiking community, so what is the proper trail etiquet for pooping in the woods?
Generally how deep a hole must one dig?
And is lugging around that orange, plastic shovel neccesary or can i just drop a rock on top of it?
Also, what else is there in the "poop shovel" market? is there a lighter, more compact option?

[Bloodroot]

You can find answers to all this stuff in the archives.

[SGT Rock]

Poop out of site. Dig a hole that does below the duft and into the real ground-about 6" deep. USe a stick, but sometimes that isn't easy. You can also use a hiking pole tip unless you glue tips on like I have. You can also get a flat metal aluminum stake so it serves as a tent stake and you can also use it as a shovel to dig with-weighs a little more than a tent pin, but about the same as the shovel and more sturdy. The plastic shovel I tried bent on the first hard ground I ever used it on and I never used it again.

For most debates, the real issue is paper. I use paper and bury it. As long as you bury the poop right, it isn't an issue. If you don't, you get engineer tape and surface laid mines.

[Chip]

Poop out of site. Dig a hole that does below the duft and into the real ground-about 6" deep. USe a stick, but sometimes that isn't easy. You can also use a hiking pole tip unless you glue tips on like I have. You can also get a flat metal aluminum stake so it serves as a tent stake and you can also use it as a shovel to dig with-weighs a little more than a tent pin, but about the same as the shovel and more sturdy. The plastic shovel I tried bent on the first hard ground I ever used it on and I never used it again.

For most debates, the real issue is paper. I use paper and bury it. As long as you bury the poop right, it isn't an issue. If you don't, you get engineer tape and surface laid mines.
:clap Right On !!!

[flyfisher]

I am part of the 3 percent of the hiking community that does not carry toilet paper... so my experience is a little different from most.

I choose some part of the trail that is not near a shelter and walk about 10 yards off the the trail. I burry the waste as deep as a bear or deer does and cover it with the leaves that I use to clean my skin.

I have never understood the impulse to dig a hole. I believe burial makes it much more difficult for the forest ecosystem to recycle my waste.

[SGT Rock]

Burying has more to do with keeping it under so someone else doesn't step in it than anything else. It will still break down under the dirt. But just surface laying it or only covering with duft makes for a higher probability that some other hiker will end up dealing with the partially exposed mine. Also,since I use paper, paper closer to the surface is more likely to end up somewhere other than where I left it, but if it is burried deep, it is a great deal more likely to break down before it ever gets the chance to be exposed.

[Chip]

Burying has more to do with keeping it under so someone else doesn't step in it than anything else. It will still break down under the dirt. But just surface laying it or only covering with duft makes for a higher probability that some other hiker will end up dealing with the partially exposed mine. Also,since I use paper, paper closer to the surface is more likely to end up somewhere other than where I left it, but if it is burried deep, it is a great deal more likely to break down before it ever gets the chance to be exposed.Sgt. Rock is right. There are several reasons to bury waste if your not going to bag it and carry it out. 1. The cat hole will contain the waste and any possible disease that might be present (fecal pathogens). 2. When you bury the waste this keeps people, animals and insects away. You don't want any means if transport available inwhich fecal parts will end up in a water source. Thus, Leave No Trace means more than just "out of sight". My 2 cents worth.

Thanks and Happy Trails,
Chip ;)

[saimyoji]

What percentage of the time do you use catholes vs. privies?

[SGT Rock]

Well there isn't always a privy when I get the urge. I never figured on percentages.

[flyfisher]

Burying has more to do with keeping it under so someone else doesn't step in it than anything else.

Sarge,

I gaurantee that you will never step where I go... :rolleyes: Of the billions of trees along the AT (not near shelters) only a fantasticly small percentage of hikers will walk next to the ones on a hillside 30 feet from the trail - ever. The odds of stepping there in the next two weeks while rain and drying are decomposing the stuff is just too small to think about.

What is the last time anyone here stepped on bear doo more than 5 feet off a trail? I've seen the stuff on the trail all the time... but can not remember seeing it off the trail -- ever.

However, if one uses toilet paper, I do appreciate them digging a hole deep enough that it stays burried and that an animal does not dig it up.

Like I said to begin with... my pattern is specificly because I do not use TP.

Well, that's enough on this little subject. I'm really not as interested in it as my post might indicate.

[Palmer]

I once read that the best way to get rid of used TP was to burn it. To my feeble mind, this seemed like a reasonable solution, so the next time I was in the woods, I tried it. The TP burned very well, and quickly ignited the dry leaves on the surrounding ground. I soon had a nice little conflagration that threatened to get out of control, so I had to stomp it out with my feet! Of course, in the process of stepping on the fire, I also stepped on my own, uh . . . you know. I now pack a lexan trowel and dig a cat hole.

[SGT Rock]

Lol - S**t Fire!

[hikerjohnd]

I once read that the best way to get rid of used TP was to burn it. To my feeble mind, this seemed like a reasonable solution, so the next time I was in the woods, I tried it. The TP burned very well, and quickly ignited the dry leaves on the surrounding ground. I soon had a nice little conflagration that threatened to get out of control, so I had to stomp it out with my feet! Of course, in the process of stepping on the fire, I also stepped on my own, uh . . . you know. I now pack a lexan trowel and dig a cat hole.
I laughed till I cried! Now I know not to light the cathole, but just bury it!

Did anyone see Billy Madison? "It's Poop Again!"

[Stuart]

I am part of the 3 percent of the hiking community that does not carry toilet paper... so my experience is a little different from most.

I choose some part of the trail that is not near a shelter and walk about 10 yards off the the trail. I burry the waste as deep as a bear or deer does and cover it with the leaves that I use to clean my skin.

I have never understood the impulse to dig a hole. I believe burial makes it much more difficult for the forest ecosystem to recycle my waste.

Seems to me the "not near the shelter" is a crucial part of this system. Obviously in high traffic areas the cathole is more or less necessary just out of consideration to others.... but all the TP I've seen in heavily used areas seems to suggest that people don't bother to dig the hole deep enough.

Not sure I've got the leaf thing down quite yet. But in preparation over the next couple months I think I'll keep a basket of leaves in my bathroom to perfect the technique :D :D

Most of my hiking has been done in the Smoky Mtns and at most backcountry campsites and shelters there is usually a shovel kept at the site. Not sure if this is the case at other shelters along the way (AT). Makes things easier.

From some of the privies I've used, I'm not so sure that a cathole is not the cleaner option.

[celt]

No matter how slim the odds are its not very hiker friendly to think its guaranteed no one will ever see the pile-O-**** you leave somewhere off the trail on top of the duff (that is the way deer and bear defecate from what I've seen) . Human waste has pathogens not present in woods critter droppings and those pathogens can contaminate ground water and surface water if effort isn't made to help it decompose. Burying it is a start. I recommend reading the Backcountry Sanitation Manual on the ATC's website. It talks a lot about managing waste for campsites but it has much general info about the facts of human waste disposal. Here is an excerpt about catholing:

Catholes—These are almost always used where established toilet facilities are not
provided. The user digs a small hole, about six inches deep, then covers the waste
with soil.
Catholes are often improperly made, and wastes do not break down quickly, despite
the old adage “bury it and it will be gone in two weeks.” Studies by Temple
and others have shown human pathogens remain viable for up to two years in
catholes.
For the cathole method to be effective, users must break up wastes with a stick,
mixing them thoroughly with duff within the cathole before covering with a
mound of leaves and duff. This creates a mini-composting pile in the top layer of
forest soil. This will only work well if the soil that the cathole is dug in is biologically
active and diverse with decomposer organisms. At higher elevations, many
of these organisms may be absent.
Catholes are usually unsatisfactory as the sole means of waste disposal at designated
facilities. Most users make them improperly, despite educational efforts
either on- or off-site. Some users even deposit wastes on the surface. If you choose
to designate cathole use at certain campsites, consult your regional ATC office
for more information.
See studies by Temple, et. al.
(1982), in Appendix E.

[flyfisher]

Human waste has pathogens not present in woods critter droppings and those pathogens can contaminate ground water and surface water if effort isn't made to help it decompose.


As it happens, I have done some thinking about this topic from a scientific and medical and preventive medicine background...

Unless you are harboring Hepatatis A (and I am not) I can't think of any pathogens that might be in human soil that is not in any other omnivore's such as a racoon or bear.

I don't clearly understand why people tend to believe their own waste is somehow worse than what is laid down by every mammal in the forest every day, but they do.

It is important to be considerate of people rooting around for campfire wood near shelters by not leaving a surprise for them. It is likewise important to not leave waste above a spring.

However, to worry about a little pile a dung 10 yards from the trail in the two miles from the nearest road or shelter is to be worried about too much.

Not to be too cute about it, but I am

Rick Allnutt, MD, MPH,
board certified in public health and family practice

[orangebug]

I was wondering the same thing about differences in interspecies fecal pathogens.

I recall a forest fire begun in California, many years ago, that theorectically started by a TP burner. I just don't see a reason not to dig the hole deep enough to dispose of business and paperwork together.

[Jack Lincoln]

This message is, at least, ten characters.

[Skeemer]

I had a ranger tell me (I think it was on the John Muir Trail) that if creatures are hungry enough they will eat it. Gives a whole new meaning when someone tells me "Eat *****!" Now I know they think I'm skinny, really care about me and don't want me to starve to death.

Thanks to the good doctor Flyfisher for clearing things up.

[cyclocrosser]

My problem with pooping in the woods is that I am always afraid that the poop will hit the ground and then flop into pants around my ankles. So generaly I totally remove my pants and then proceed. But I think digging a hole is a waste of time and when you gotta go you gotta go.

[cyclocrosser]

Oh and hey my dog eats poop: racoon poop, opossum poop, goose poop, horse poop, bear poop, duck poop, deer poop, rabbit poop, cat poop, just about any poop as long as it isn't dog poop. Sure it is disgusting but he seems to like it.

[David S.]

And sometimes...depending on what you had to eat and what your tummy is doing, you may only have micro seconds to dig your hole. Know what I mean?

[saimyoji]

Does is make sense to dig the hole AFTER you've deposited your load? That way you know how big a hole to dig. What do you do if your hole overflows?:-?

[titanium_hiker]

re David S:
I HAD to go. no hole. then I dug a hole, put the ex contents of the hole over my deposit...
funny as.

titanium_hiker

[SiuWonfung]

I find that finding a large flat rock and dropping it (lightly) on top of my pile is much more convinient and eliminates that need for a shovel.

I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK, THIS IS A GREAT TIP!

[Divining Rod]

Good laughs here!

[bearboy]

my dog has been eating the poop out of my cats litterbox for years and she still seems to be in good health.

[highway]

My problem with pooping in the woods is that I am always afraid that the poop will ...flop into pants around my ankles.

Observe first round's impact and adjust/range and/or windage on following shots-if further shots are required :D

After a few days you'll probably shoot expert!

:p

[RenaissanceMan98]

I still think burying is important.

Several times in 98 did I leave the trail, miles from anything of import, head 10+ yards from the trail then begin to dig, only to find others, many others, had dug there before me. Some spots just seem to invite the pooper in need. Of course, If you walk over to the same spot then drop your load without digging, you probably wouldn't have noticed that others had been there, and so, your conclusion that nobody else would see your leavings would be based on erroneous assumption.

Also, if you want to go without paper, forget leaves, use rocks. Really, they do a great job, just choose carefully.

Snow is also an excellent paper substitute. No kidding.

[SGT Rock]

Real men wipe with pine cones :D

[jlb2012]

Real men wipe with pine cones :D
White pine is not bad but you have to be crazy to use pitch pine, table mountain pine, Virginia pine, or short leaf pine

[bitpusher]

Why am I unsurprised that HOI knows this?

[The Old Fhart]

While we're all engrossed in scatology, check out this site (http://www.haeadventure.com/bathroom.htm) that tells you how to take a dump with snowshoes on. There is also lots of other great stuff on this site, even though you might not agree with all of it. enjoy

[Rocks 'n Roots]

A blown-over tree usually has a rootball and hole. If you can locate one the soil there is usually soft and easily dig-able. This will hasten decomposition and the rootball is usually an obstacle that people avoid so the deposit will remain undisturbed.

To me a latrine trowel is a complete waste of weight because a stick or rock works just fine.

You can find degradeable toilet paper if you look for it...

[Uncle Wayne]

Here's some advice I gave the scouts on "going to the bathroom" while on the trail. This was in preparation for a section hike we did several years ago. Several of the moms took me at my word and I had several calls after they read the instructions I gave their sons.

Leave No Trace Bathroom Visits;
The next items will always be completed at least 200 feet away from camp, the trail or water source.
When you’re getting rid of excess body liquids, aim for a rock or tree. If you must pee on the ground, try to write your name.
When you’re getting rid of excess body solids;
1. Find a stick about 2 feet long as thick as your thumb.
2. Might as well look for a place where you can enjoy the scenery.
3. Dig a cathole 6 inches square and 6 inches deep with the trowel.
4. Squat over the hole, aim carefully and, well, you know what to do.
5. If your aim is off a little, use the stick you found to correct your error and push the stuff in the hole. IMPORTANT! Do not use the trowel.
6. After the paper work is done and dropped into the hole, pee on top of the pile.
7. Take your stick and rake a little dirt into the hole.
8. Stir all this stuff up together.
9. Rake the rest of the dirt over the hole and completely cover the original hole.
10. Push the stick into the middle of the hole, leave it sticking up, pack the dirt slightly over the hole and around the stick.
11. Wash your hands.
12. If you failed to observe the last sentence of step # 5, put the trowel in your pack.

I suggest you practice this a few times at home in the yard before trying it in the woods.

[Jaybird]

I suggest you practice this a few times at home in the yard before trying it in the woods.
__________________
Uncle Wayne



Just what the neigbors ordered! hehehehehehe :D

[Hikerhead]

I've seen this before and it still cracks me up. :jump

[Lilred]

[QUOTE=Uncle Wayne]When you’re getting rid of excess body liquids, aim for a rock or tree. If you must pee on the ground, try to write your name.
QUOTE]


Ok GUYS, LISTEN UP!! Some of us women like to lean against a tree to do our business, specially when taking a dump. We brace our back against the trunk and it's just like sittin on the throne at home. PLEASE, DO NOT piss on trees.
Good Grief !!!

[SGT Rock]

LOL, I never thought of that. Do you know how many of those trees have been peed on? :-?

[Hikerhead]

Ok GUYS, LISTEN UP!! Some of us women like to lean against a tree to do our business, specially when taking a dump. We brace our back against the trunk and it's just like sittin on the throne at home. PLEASE, DO NOT piss on trees.
Good Grief !!!


I'll never go near a tree again.

[orangebug]

LilRedMG, I think that may have been TMI.

You tell us that you aren't digging a cathole if you use a tree for back support during toileting. Hikers, like most of the world, find that the deep knee squat improves their aim and efficiency during toileting. This is not done as efficiently holding on to anything other than your knees as you complete the task, usually holding a portion of the seat of your pants to keep them out of the target zone.

My understanding was that urine belongs on the ground and not on plant material as deer and other critters will be attracted to the salt. You won't find my urine on your tree.

[Lilred]

LilRedMG, I think that may have been TMI.

You tell us that you aren't digging a cathole if you use a tree for back support during toileting. Hikers, like most of the world, find that the deep knee squat improves their aim and efficiency during toileting. This is not done as efficiently holding on to anything other than your knees as you complete the task, usually holding a portion of the seat of your pants to keep them out of the target zone.

My understanding was that urine belongs on the ground and not on plant material as deer and other critters will be attracted to the salt. You won't find my urine on your tree.


TMI?? LOL like this thread wasn't too much info to begin with. Seriously though, of course I dig a cathole. Who says you can't dig a hole near a tree trunk??? And anyhow, if the hole is missed, just read rule number 5 from Uncle Wayne. (geesh, and you say I give TMI.....) And who said anything bout holding onto anything?? I could read a book my hands are so free.....Oh, and thanks for not peeing on my tree... ;)

[The Old Fhart]

I just scanned the post here and, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mention of the serious book by Kathleen Meyer called "How to S**t in the Woods", available on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0898156270/104-4349351-3083943) and other places.

[Lilred]

I just scanned the post here and, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mention of the serious book by Kathleen Meyer called "How to S**t in the Woods", available on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0898156270/104-4349351-3083943) and other places.

It may be serious, but from the excerpt I read, it's hilarious.

[The Old Fhart]

I just thought after reading some of the concerns of the female hikers posting here that this book would be useful. There is a chapter on how to avoid "jaundiced sneakers" but that's as much as I'll say. :)

[saimyoji]

Especially if a dog is in the vicinity, you might wanna re-think the tree thing. I don't own a dog, but it is my understanding that they prefer to water trees. Dog owners correct me.... Also, as a general trend, what constitutes a "good place" to lay a trail mine? I ask so as to seek out the opposite. :D

[Lilred]

Especially if a dog is in the vicinity, you might wanna re-think the tree thing. I don't own a dog, but it is my understanding that they prefer to water trees. Dog owners correct me.... Also, as a general trend, what constitutes a "good place" to lay a trail mine? I ask so as to seek out the opposite. :D


I seriously doubt a dog would go offtrail as far as I go to piss on a tree. I doubt the dog population on the trail would be enough to warrant concern in that area. I'm not really concerned about it anyhow. It's not like every tree out there is dripping with pee. I think I'll be ok.

[PecosBackpacker]

Not to be a party-pooper (pun intended) :), but the proper way to drop off the kids is to dig a hole 6-8 inches deep that is at least 200 feet away from the trail, water sourcce, campsite, and the like, drop the pants, and bombs away. Afterwards, you take he TP, toss it in the hole, and piss on it, not only to condense it, thereby reducing he chance of it ever seeing daylight, but the wastes in urine will also accelerate the decomposition process. Take a shorrt stick (2-3 feet should do it), stir, and cover. For more information on proper pooping stances and natural butt-wipes, read Alan & Mikes Really Cool Backpackin' Book by Allen O'Bannon and Mike Clelland.

[Bolo]

Tried a new (?) way this weekend:

Walk up to a tree and spread your legs.
Wrap one arm around the tree.
Squat down (no deep knee squats necessary) a bit and lean back.
Then poop and wipe with your free hand.
Dig and bury.

[hikerjohnd]

Tried a new (?) way this weekend:

Walk up to a tree and spread your legs.
Wrap one arm around the tree.
Squat down (no deep knee squats necessary) a bit and lean back.
Then poop and wipe with your free hand.
Dig and bury.
Yea - the 'Hug-a-tree' method. :D

[The Weasel]

All of the comments above make sense reading, and should of course continue for those who want to leave their waste along the trail. Phart's comment reminded me to post a new version of a very old ('01?) post that I had in this forum as a new thread about "How To S h i t In The Woods" for those who are interested in the book.

The Weasel

[Frosty]

Tried a new (?) way this weekend:

Walk up to a tree and spread your legs.
Wrap one arm around the tree.
Squat down (no deep knee squats necessary) a bit and lean back.
Then poop and wipe with your free hand.
Dig and bury.You clean off your hand afterwards, I hope?

[RockyTrail]

I was taught in the Boy Scouts some 30 something years ago to always stab a stick in it after burial so that the next person would not try to use that spot. I think that's still good advice.

A couple years ago I had the pleasure to take a small crew of Scouts out to Philmont Scout Ranch, a 200-sq mile backpacking reserve in the mountains of northern New Mexico. They have 1000's of scouts per year traveling through the backcountry and over the past 60+ years have developed some well-developed policies for managing waste.

Here's what they insist all crews practice:

1. Always pee on a rock, not a tree or the ground. It will dry there and not contaminate the ground. If anything it will only become a salt lick for animals.

2. Where there are privies, do not urinate in the privy; the urine will interfere with the breakdown of solid waste in the privy and cause problems later (find a rock before you go).

A funny story: On day 6 we had reached a remote horse camp in the south end of the ranch. One of the ranchhands had been building something with a pile of rocks. He went for a break and came back to find several scouts watering his pile of building material. The pain on his face when he saw this was hilarious, but then he shook his head and said, "they're just following the rules, can't blame'em!" :)

[The Weasel]

Well, first of all, I'd rather not walk out behind the shelter and see a lot of sticks pointing up!

Second of all, as a Scoutmaster going back pretty much all of those 30 years, the "stick in the ground" was from the old Scout Handbook, and was to be placed in a dead-out campfire, as evidence that it was out, on the theory that if it wasn't, the stick would identify who left the fire coals. A dumb idea, but, yeah, stuff like that was there. But please...don't pee on a stick you see in a fire ring!

The Weasel

[One Leg]

A boy was meeting his girlfriend's parents for the first time for dinner. After dinner, his girlfriend and her mother left the room to do the dishes, leaving him with the father and the dog Duke, who was sitting underneath the boy's chair. Unfortunately, it was a large dinner and he really had to fart. He stealthily let out a quiet, but audible, fart.
"Duke!" the dad yelled.

"This is great!" the boy thought. "He thinks the dog is farting!" So he let out another one.

"Duke!" the father barked. The boy thought he was homefree so he let everything out at once in a really loud and smelly fart.

"Duke! Get out of there before the boy s h i t s on you!"