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lobster
01-10-2005, 15:51
I don't understand why some folks start so early, but kudos to those who are forging ahead!

stickat04
01-10-2005, 15:58
I don't think anyone has given up yet the weather has been nice in that neck of the woods so far. This weekend it is suppose to get bad they say. I wish I could be out there with them 6 weeks to go for me can't wait.
Stick

Butch Cassidy
01-10-2005, 16:04
Yea, I think Alpha, (Wacocelt) is off trail for a while but I don't think he has quit for good, just taking a break maybe? He started Jan 1st.

tlbj6142
01-10-2005, 16:30
I don't understand why some folks start so earlyAvoid crowds, heat, bugs? Maybe for a "bigger adventure"?

Maybe they plan to take 40 zero days at Lone Wolf's place?:D

max patch
01-10-2005, 16:50
A handful of people start every year on 1/1, many because they have a fantasy of being the "first" t-hiker to finish.

Many others start early because they don't have an idea of how long it will take them and want to make sure they finish before bad weather comes. Unfortunately, most of these early starters if they make it will finish up in the summer and will miss hiking in New England in the Fall...which is the best time to be on the trail.

Weather has been excellent in GA so far. Should be no weather related quitting as of yet.

Jack Tarlin
01-10-2005, 16:51
Lobster:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is at least the fourth thread you've initiated dealing with completion rates; people who don't make it the whole way; people who claim to made it the whole way; how comforts have affected completion rates, etc.

You seem to have some sort of fascination with other people's hikes, especially as regards those who finish the trail, those who don't, those who claim they did, etc.

What gives? Why are you always so interested in what other folks are doing?
Of the folks who've started this year, why on earth do you care who's "quit already?"

Honestly, on more than one occasion, you sound positively gleeful when it comes to discussing or speculating on how other folks' journeys have ended up.

Just an observation, but your obsession with "failure" on the Trail (or what you perceive to be "failure") is more than a little morbid sometimes.

The bottom line is that most folks who start a long backpacking journey, for one reason or another, aren't fated to complete it, and that many of the folks who fully intend to hike a trail in its entirety often end up changing their plans and goals.

Changing one's plans or changing what one wants or expects from a journey does not necessarily constitute "failure."

The Solemates
01-10-2005, 17:17
Yea, I think Alpha, (Wacocelt) is off trail for a while but I don't think he has quit for good, just taking a break maybe? He started Jan 1st.

If you read in another thread, he has kidney stones and is delaying his hike to April 1st or so.

The Old Fhart
01-10-2005, 18:03
Like Jack I find Lobster's choice of words telling. I don't know of any real hikers using the word "quit" to describe someone leaving the trail. Over the years I have known many who have left for one reason or another. It could be family matters, injury, etc. One person I hikes with in 1998, Sensei, described the trail as "the world's longest, thinest community" and like any community, we are saddened when someone departs.

So I guess the question everyone would like to know, Lobster, why do you get off on other's misfortunes?

Youngblood
01-10-2005, 19:25
Geez, I don't see a problem with Lobster's question. I kind of understand Jack (since Wacocelt is a personal friend) getting a litlle defensive but I think it is a good question if it is taken in the right way. I assume that is the way it is meant... does leaving this early with short days, cold weather, winter storms, little or no company affect ones desire or ability to stay on the trail... aren't these the kind of issues that an AT hiker forum would be interested in?

Youngblood

Jack Tarlin
01-10-2005, 19:49
Youngblood, you'd be right, if it weren't for Lobster's somewhat pathological interest in how other people fare out there on the Trail; a quick search of his posts and the threads he's initiated reveals a pretty unusual interest in how well (or NOT well) other folks are doing......And to bluntly entitle his thread "Which 2005ers have quit already?" seems more than unnecessarily harsh. Someone truly interested in how the early folks were doing would say just that; the thread would've been called "Anyone heard about the earlybirds?" or "How are ther early starters faring?" Or "How is (fill in a hiker's name here) doing, has anybody heard?"

To try and assemble a list of early "quitters" seems more than a little unkind, the same as his one-time comment on how much fun it would be to assemble a list of those claiming thru-hiker status so that other people could "out" them as liars and cheaters. This is an odd kind of fun.

The German word (which has no good English equivalent) "schadenfreude" comes to mind here, which means "taking delight in the misery and misfortunes of others."

A discussion of how certain specific factors can affect one's trip, such as early inclement weather; rough conditions on the Trail; the lack of other hikers for company and support: All of these are indeed worthy subjects of discussion, but to start a thread by bluntly asking "Which 2005ers have quit already?" seems to me an attempt to list people's names for no other purpose than to cause them embarassment or distress. If some of the early starters have left the Trail prematurely, well, that's THEIR business. I wish them well, as should we all, and I hope that at some point, assuming it's a goal that is, important to them, that they set out on the Trail once again.

The Old Fhart
01-10-2005, 19:50
Ah, Youngblood, you have asked the question correctly and we don't see anything wrong with that. If you check the threads Lobster has started, he has an common theme of seeing if he can get information to belittle others. Check his thread about finding the names of people who have reported thru hikes to ATC so he can publically point out who has "cheated", by his own high standards, or misinformation.

You said
I think it is a good question if it is taken in the right way. but I say unto you, I think it is a good question if it is ASKED in the right way, and not for nefarious reasons.

Lone Wolf
01-10-2005, 19:54
Much ado about nothing really. You cats need to get out and hike. :)

lobster
01-10-2005, 20:50
Why are more and more folks starting earlier? Or is my perception wrong? I suppose there is solitude, pretty snow, wide open views through the leafless trees, etc., but it sure seems that the drawbacks outweigh the positives. Do some folks feel they won't finish if they don't start in January or February?

By the way, I was absolutely shocked when somebody jumped in concerning my wording! Good to see that the "political correctness" crowd is alive and well. I guess the word "quit" is a no-no. Was the word "already" inappropriate also?

orangebug
01-10-2005, 20:57
... By the way, I was absolutely shocked when somebody jumped in concerning my wording! Good to see that the "political correctness" crowd is alive and well. I guess the word "quit" is a no-no. Was the word "already" inappropriate also?ROFLMAO! Jack as "politically correct?"

Give it up, you've been busted. :jump

The Old Fhart
01-10-2005, 21:07
Lone Wolf-"Much ado about nothing really. You cats need to get out and hike. :) "You should have joined me this past 3 days, LW, even YOU would have enjoyed it. This was about the 23rd year I've been an instructor (unpaid) in the New Hampshire Chapter AMC mountain Safety Workshops. 60 participants, 20 instructors spending most of the time outdoors bushwhacking or on ski trails with great food, heated lodge, and even a slide show on climbing Mt. Adams, WA. The next one is the end of Feb. if you're interested.

grandview
01-11-2005, 00:15
Changing one's plans or changing what one wants or expects from a journey does not necessarily constitute "failure."
nothing wrong with being blunt and wondering who's called it quits this go round....BUT, very wise words quoted above.

mdionne
01-11-2005, 03:54
yep, at first glance i though the wording was a little negative but i didn't read anything into it. we used to call it "getting off the trail". "my buddy, so and so, had to get off the trail". it was usually a sad event. i've also never met a thru hiker who was a failure.

old fhart - do you think it's a good idea to send 60 people out bushwhacking at a safety conference? why didn't you tell them it's safer to stick to the trail? :confused:

Lone Wolf
01-11-2005, 10:23
Quit: to stop, cease or discontinue. To depart from; leave. Y'all are too anal about the word QUIT. I QUIT twice in Gorham, N.H. after hiking from Georgia. No biggie. It is what it is. I've run some ultramarathons. Those that quit say they DNF'ed. Did Not Finish.

The Old Fhart
01-11-2005, 11:11
MDionne-"old fhart - do you think it's a good idea to send 60 people out bushwhacking at a safety conference? why didn't you tell them it's safer to stick to the trail?" Please reread my post and notice that the numbers you've quoted are very wrong. There were 80 people, not 60, instructors are people too! :) Also note that I said or on ski trails, not everyone was off trail. In my advanced leadership group there were 2 instructors and 3 participants. Before we went outside to bushwhack there was a session inside where the participants did map and compass problems for the area so we could be sure they understood how to use these navigational tools before we went out. There were pack checks to make sure that we had proper individual as well as group safety gear. My co-instructor, Rick has been doing this for 25 years and he is the workshop's director as well. We now have 3 workshops (not conferences) per year so we've been over this same route so many times we know individual rocks and trees by name!

To become a leader in the NH chapter you have to successfully pass this course and mentor with 3 different leaders on chapter trips so we can be sure you know what you're doing. Navigational skills are a part of this but group dynamics, leadership style, and other things are taught as well. In order to teach off-trail skills, you have to go off the trails. Anyone who has hiked in winter knows that even major trails can disappear under deep snow and whether you planned on being on a trail or not, you better know how to find your route with map and compass. There are no ways to learn these skills just by reading a book or staying at a Holiday Inn, you have to practice under controlled conditions with supervision. You should also note that there are trips from the various chapters that go to trailless peaks. Lots of our instructors have also climbed Rainier, Denali, gone to Everest base camp, hiked the A.T., and climbed other peaks all over the world, so they know what they are doing.

We had a slide show at the workshop of a trip some of our leaders took to Mt. Adams, WA. They found an ill prepared climber that broke an ankle and was hypothermic. The group with our leaders performed the rescue because the ranger on the mountain realized they were the most qualified and prepared group there. The First Aid person in the NH group teaches EMTs at a local hospital and works part time at a ski area so he is very qualified to handle cold weather injuries. He is also one of our workshop instructors.

One of the participants in our leadership group was from Maine, for instance, and we train people who could lead for the other chapters, scouts, etc.. The danger isn't taking them out in the woods in a controlled environment with people who know the area, but having someone without any training just wander into the woods. I hope this quick explanation puts you at ease. We haven't lost anyone yet! :)

Youngblood
01-11-2005, 11:44
... We haven't lost anyone yet! :)
That's impressive! Would you venture to make a guess to the percentage of sucessfull completions of the course.

I understood from your first post but enjoyed your second post as well. The first think that comes to mind for me personally as a comparison is getting a SCUBA Certification (or C-card). You take some course work but you also put on the equipment and use it in various conditions under an instructors supervision. And for the same good reasons that you mentioned in your Safety Workshops... so you'll live through it if you don't have it figured out quite right or are just unable to do it.

Youngblood

Blue Jay
01-11-2005, 11:50
Would you venture to make a guess to the percentage of sucessfull completions of the course.


Hey, you're stealing Lobster's material.

The Old Fhart
01-11-2005, 12:00
Blue Jay- "Hey, you're stealing Lobster's material.' Don't be silly, they asked for completion rate, not failure rate!