View Full Version : Cotton?
rhapsody98
03-18-2011, 18:46
All of the sites I'm reading tell me that cotton is not to be worn on the AT, but I've worn cotton and jeans on every day hike I've ever taken, rain or shine. Is cotton really that awful when you're over-nighting it?
It's just that it takes forever to dry once it gets wet. And it gets wet very quickly.
kayak karl
03-18-2011, 19:02
what temps are you talking about?
Wow I couldn't imagine eve hiking in jeans!!! They have way to much drag and would cause horrible chafe! The motto that I always heard and follow is, Cotton Kills.
rhapsody98
03-18-2011, 19:33
what temps are you talking about?
Anything but the coldest temps. I've hiked in layers, granted it was only about three miles, but still, I had on one pair of cotton socks and one pair of fleece socks in my boots, my jeans, a cotton t-shirt under a cotton hoodie, with my heavy winter coat over top, and a fleece hat, and cotton gloves. I stayed warm, and I did notice the cotton was damp with my sweat, but never got beyond that, and was dry by the time I got home, (less than 15 min drive.) So I guess the answer is yes, cotton is bad for over-nighting it.
Try this:
Put on your jeans and cotton Tshirt, maybe a cotton sweatshirt as well. Walk around and feel what it feels like to move around in them.
Take them off, and weigh them on a scale. Dry weight.
Now soak them in water. Wring them, shake them, spin them around, whatever you like to get the "excess" water out of them.
Weigh them again.
Now put those wet clothes on and move around. Heavy and cold, uncomfortable.
Cotton absorbs water, which then evaporates, which generally has a cooling effect. It has the capacity to hold a lot of water (added weight) and that water sucks away your body heat as it dries (evaporative cooling).
A better scenario would be clothing that doesn't hold much water and dries quickly, minimizing the cooling effect and returning to the dry, lighter, weight and feel.
Ranc0r
.
I wore cotton t-shirts when I got back into hiking a few years ago and they invariably became soaked with sweat and basically never dried out. I also wore cotton shorts, same problem -- I burned a hole in them trying to dry them out over a campfire. Switched to synthetic, much better.
Jeans are too hot for warm weather, and in cold weather are dangerous if wet. Also too heavy.
mmais68569
03-18-2011, 20:39
Try hiking 10 miles with jeans & cotton tee shirt in 90 degree temps you will change your mind.
Mike (Mr. Mean)
Slo-go'en
03-18-2011, 21:04
We have a saying here about tourists in cotton : Dressed for death.
There is a reason you find blue jeans and other cotton clothes abandoned at shelters and along the trail. Once they get wet, you need to get out of them and then thier too heavy to carry out, so get left behind.
fiddlehead
03-18-2011, 21:07
Cotton kills.
Great for the tropics.
Sucks for cold temps.
Believe it.
kayak karl
03-18-2011, 21:18
Cotton kills.
when we make stupid and unexplained statements like this it is just the ignorant utterance of two words.
PS.... GUNS KILL PEOPLE:D
Wise Old Owl
03-18-2011, 21:21
I guess they answered that, but jeans are heavier than tech pants or shorts, the Tech doesn't retain water, (You can ford a stream in them ) and half an hour later will dry while hiking. So its now a nubie thing to hike in jeans and t shirts.
fiddlehead
03-18-2011, 21:21
Interesting that you are a kayaker (I assume from your name anyway) and say that.
Because it was on one of my first whitewater kayaking trips in 1979 when a famous boater is the one who told me that quote.
I didn't have hypothermia that day, but only cause I was only in the water a short time and my car was nearby.
Cookerhiker
03-18-2011, 21:52
.... Great for the tropics...
I've worn cotton jeans in the desert, not backpacking but work projects and short hikes. They've provided great protection against cactus thorns.
Most folks I know who only go on overniters, only do so when the weather is fair. Not real cold, and especially not wet. So, with that in mind, wear your cotton shirt and shorts. Why you would wear jeans over something like track pants is beyond me, but you can certainly do it.
"Cotton kills" is actually the first thing that came to mind because during many outdoor wilderness classes that's one of the first things they mention when it comes to clothing when hiking. Many here have already responded with reasons why you should not wear cotton so I won't repeat it but listen to the advice....go synthetic.
The Cleaner
03-19-2011, 09:36
Like they say HYOH but when whatever you're wearing gets wet do not leave it at a trail shelter:eek:.......
The science of hypothermia (http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eoa/safety/hypocold.shtml)
Cotton socks lead to trench foot. Cotton gets wet, stays wet, doesn't retain heat when wet... Wool is a lot better than cotton. My gear is either wool or synthetic. I love jeans, but wear them at home.
skinewmexico
03-19-2011, 11:26
In the times before synthetics, people wore cotton all the time. I grew up hiking and camping in cotton. With that being said, there are better choices, and they don't cost that much. Use the right tool for the job.
nitegaunt
03-19-2011, 11:31
Cotton is one of those lessons you sometimes have to learn the hard way but these folks here are steering you in the right direction. Get yourself some pants that are made out of nylon or some other synthetic fabric and some wool socks. Not only do "hiking pants" dry way quicker but they are also lighter, more comfortable, breathable, and usually even provide uv protection. You can get a pair for 40-50 bucks if you look around. Even just for dayhikes these two items will make a difference in your enjoyment. Especially the socks! I was amazed when I first started wearing smartwool socks. They are super comfortable, keep your feet dry, and they keep the stink away due to their natural anti-bacterial properties.
Tenderheart
03-19-2011, 12:09
Does anybody remember fish-net underwear as the base layer? I actually had a pair. As for cotton, I would say that it would probably mold if taken out for very long. Good advice above and only one slam. Not bad.
litefoot 2000
...The motto that I always heard and follow is, Cotton Kills.
Yeah, I hear that. Though I've been wearing cotton on and off the trail for 81 years and I'm still alive.
Cotton kills in freezing and near freezing temperature during and after rain storms that occur when you are not wearing proper rain gear. In other circumstances cotton ranges from mildly inconvenient to ideal hiking clothing.
Yeah, I hear that. Though I've been wearing cotton on and off the trail for 81 years and I'm still alive.
Cotton kills in freezing and near freezing temperature during and after rain storms that occur when you are not wearing proper rain gear. In other circumstances cotton ranges from mildly inconvenient to ideal hiking clothing.
Cotton (when wet) can also lead to hypothermia in surprisingly warm temps.
I do say I find a thick button down white cotton shirt really nice for day hiking the Grand Canyon in the summer. Though of course I have seen the thermometer at the bottom reading 137° in the shade at the same time.
Cotton (when wet) can also lead to hypothermia in surprisingly warm temps.
Maybe. I've never happened to experience it. Perhaps you can provide us with some real life examples.
Does anybody remember fish-net underwear as the base layer? I actually had a pair. As for cotton, I would say that it would probably mold if taken out for very long. Good advice above and only one slam. Not bad.
litefoot 2000
In all my decades, I've yet to experience a moldy cotton garment. Tell us of your experiences, if any, with moldy cotton.
It's just that it takes forever to dry once it gets wet. And it gets wet very quickly.
Well, I hiked in winter using cotton underclothes for 20-25 years. I sweated often while hiking, but the moisture seemed to exit quite quickly once I stopped.
My winter hikes almost always involved stopping in late afternoon and building a fire. My cotton tee shirts always seemed to be dry when we finally gave up chatting around an impromtu fire -- typically 9-10 p.m -- and going to bed.
For whoever is interested in a safe healthy hike. Please do not listen to any ones advice saying cotton is ok. It is not. It is a horrible fabric that has no place on a trail that isn't an extremely hot desert day hike. Please do your self a big favor and say no to cotton. It can seriously kill you. People who say it's ok are seriously giving you the wrong advice, whether out of ignorance or negligence, it is very bad to suggest cotton is ever an ok fabric to wear on a long distance hike. Do yourself, your family and the local rescue team a big favor and get synthetic quick dry fabrics.
For whoever is interested in a safe healthy hike. Please do not listen to any ones advice saying cotton is ok. It is not. It is a horrible fabric that has no place on a trail that isn't an extremely hot desert day hike. Please do your self a big favor and say no to cotton. It can seriously kill you. People who say it's ok are seriously giving you the wrong advice, whether out of ignorance or negligence, it is very bad to suggest cotton is ever an ok fabric to wear on a long distance hike. Do yourself, your family and the local rescue team a big favor and get synthetic quick dry fabrics.
Whatever. I remember when the experts recommended cotton. Until 60 years ago + or -, there were no synthetics. But I and most of the hikers from those decades have survived. Even Henry Thoreau lived through years of cotton -- until finally succumbing to TB at home.
Mrs Baggins
03-19-2011, 18:31
PLEASE don't do it. I lead an all-women hiking group and I preach and preach against cotton, right down to socks. It's Dead Man's Clothes for a reason. Not to mention the chafing, the weight, never drying out. My husband and I travel overseas a lot and we NEVER take jeans or anything else in cotton. We take only what can be washed up in a sink or tub and will absolutely dry overnight - and it all works best for day hikes and sightseeing. I lectured against cotton on one of our first hikes and one lady wore cotton socks....and was blistered on both heels within the first 2 miles. The cotton wore right thru. I don't even wear cotton panties, only microfiber. My husband buys the men's travel briefs for our trips and for hiking.
Whatever. I remember when the experts recommended cotton. Until 60 years ago + or -, there were no synthetics. But I and most of the hikers from those decades have survived. Even Henry Thoreau lived through years of cotton -- until finally succumbing to TB at home.
I also used to backpack in cotton. And I am still alive. As well as "most" of the hikers that used cotton. I have had a bad experience with hypothermia when I and a companion had our cotton get wet. I learned a lesson that I will never forget. Thank goodness I had a wool shirt to change into. Today there are many more suitable fabrics than cotton for those that run a risk of getting wet for an extended time. Cotton is great and I still wear it. Just not when venturing into the outdoors for extended periods.
I respect my elders. But I also get weary of those that give bad advice.
Tenderheart
03-19-2011, 18:36
Whatever. I remember when the experts recommended cotton. Until 60 years ago + or -, there were no synthetics. But I and most of the hikers from those decades have survived. Even Henry Thoreau lived through years of cotton -- until finally succumbing to TB at home.
Then, by all means, you should definitely wear cotton. But I still think my pot is the blackest.
litefoot 2000
I respect my elders. But I also get weary of those that give bad advice.
Should have said dangerous advice. I can tolerate bad advice.
Mrs Baggins
03-19-2011, 19:02
Should have said dangerous advice. I can tolerate bad advice.
It's what I call a bad case of the "By God's" as in By God in my day.....!"
Anything but the coldest temps. I've hiked in layers, granted it was only about three miles, but still, I had on one pair of cotton socks and one pair of fleece socks in my boots, my jeans, a cotton t-shirt under a cotton hoodie, with my heavy winter coat over top, and a fleece hat, and cotton gloves. I stayed warm, and I did notice the cotton was damp with my sweat, but never got beyond that, and was dry by the time I got home, (less than 15 min drive.) So I guess the answer is yes, cotton is bad for over-nighting it.
Remember, on the AT you won't have a 15 minute drive home. You'll be stuck in your cold wet cotton clothing for days and days. Do you really want to roll out of your nice warm bag and put on cold wet jeans? Do you really want to watch your cotton t-shirt rot away against your back? What happens if you have to cross a deep stream or walk through wet bushes near the end of the day? Things won't always be perfectly planned so you can be dry right before bed time.
Cotton is only good in arctic conditions and desert conditions. Everywhere else there are better fabrics, such as synthetics or wool.
It's what I call a bad case of the "By God's" as in By God in my day.....!"
My generation has to deal with the trauma of getting the car keys out of the hands of loved ones when they are a danger to the public. Does this need to be expanded to an ISP account?
I would suggest looking for truth in what Weary says. In whole or in part, its there.
I think it goes with out saying that the problem is not cotton per se, but rather wet cotton, right?
But what of the alternative? Is a wet poly propylene shirt or pair of nylon pants much safer?
To my way of thinking a wet cotton shirt or pair of pants and a wet poly shirt and pair of nylon pant are equally dangerous. To my way of thinking neither has much insulating value. I don't buy into the idea that body heat will dry out the synthetics in real life, life threatening situations along the Trail.
That's not to say that the poly shirt wont dry out fast when the sun comes out, and may not offer advantages. Synthetics are great. It is to say that by and large wet fibres will suck the heat out of your body whether they come from a plant or an oil field.
But man made materials provide warmth even when wet you say! I'll buy that. But I will also wager that Weary and Thoreau and other complemented their cotton items with other fibers like wool.
I would also wager to say that Weary and other wise hikers came to realize the importance of dry clothes over clothes technologies, and that served them well.
Cotton doesn't kill. Wet cotton might, but so too would wet poly and nylon. As for cotton killing a thru hiker over the the life of the trail, I have never heard any reports of that. Anyone else? In fact, I have never heard any reports of a thru hiker ever perishing on the AT from hypothermia at all.
I will resist the temptation to cite other killers (not cotton) on the AT, and leave that for another thread.
SassyWindsor
03-19-2011, 19:48
I've been in the mountains on a 90 degree day, a rain storm came over the mountain and the temps dropped 25 degrees very quickly. Some nearby hikers wearing cotton shorts and tee shirts nearly froze. The combination of wet, wind and cotton can cause hypothermia quickly, even in the dead of summer. In hot weather I wear cotton tees, but always, and I do mean always, have a synthetic thermal shirt and a marmot precip jacket on hand. If WWII solders in Europe/Germany/Russia had worn cotton instead of wool it would have been a very short war.
I would suggest looking for truth in what Weary says. In whole or in part, its there.
I think it goes with out saying that the problem is not cotton per se, but rather wet cotton, right?
But what of the alternative? Is a wet poly propylene shirt or pair of nylon pants much safer?
To my way of thinking a wet cotton shirt or pair of pants and a wet poly shirt and pair of nylon pant are equally dangerous. To my way of thinking neither has much insulating value. I don't buy into the idea that body heat will dry out the synthetics in real life, life threatening situations along the Trail.
That's not to say that the poly shirt wont dry out fast when the sun comes out, and may not offer advantages. It is to say that by and large wet fibres will suck the heat out of your body whether they come from a plant or an oil field.
But man made materials provide warmth even when wet you say! I'll buy that. But I will also wager that Weary and Thoreau and other complemented their cotton items with other fibers like wool.
I would also wager to say that Weary and other wise hikers came to realize the importance of dry clothes over clothes technologies, and that served them well.
Cotton doesn't kill. Wet cotton might, but so too would wet poly and nylon. As for cotton killing a thru hiker over the the life of the trail, I have never heard any reports of that. Anyone else?. In fact, I have never heard any reports of a thru hiker ever perishing on the AT from hypothermia at all.
I will resist the temptation to cite other killers (not cotton) on the AT, and leave that for another thread.
But do you agree that depending on cotton on an extended outing is a bad idea? You seemed to ignore that it is much easier to wring out a synthetic fabric than cotton. I do agree that wool may be the best insulator when wet.
[QUOTE=rickb;1131272]I would suggest looking for truth in what Weary says. In whole or in part, its there.
/QUOTE]
I would suggest that weary is unable to face the truth. And his advice can be dangerous to a new hiker or others wanting to explore the outdoors.
4eyedbuzzard
03-19-2011, 19:59
The "problem" with cotton is also what makes it good for so many things. It is cheap, breathable, and absorbs a LOT of water and holds onto it extremely well. So it makes great everyday clothing, towels, robes, etc. But the last thing you want in the outdoors is highly absorbent clothing that holds onto a large mass of water.
Go with wool, poly, microfiber, etc. There are many comfortable choices that don't have cotton's affinity for water.
I've been in the mountains on a 90 degree day, a rain storm came over the mountain and the temps dropped 25 degrees very quickly. Some nearby hikers wearing cotton shorts and tee shirts nearly froze.
I see your wisdom, but here is question to ponder.
If those nearby hikers had been wearing nylon running shorts and Duofold T-shirts (my favorite) would they have been any better off?
Feral Bill
03-19-2011, 20:12
Does anybody remember fish-net underwear as the base layer? I actually had a pair. As for cotton, I would say that it would probably mold if taken out for very long. Good advice above and only one slam. Not bad.
litefoot 2000
Everyone used those years ago, hiking in the Adirondaks and Whites in the dead of winter. They are better at moisture management than "wicking" layers. of course, they do leave you hips and shoulders looking like inflamed waffles. Old cotton dress shirts are also very nice for sun and bugs in hot weather. There is a place for cotton, used intelligently, just not as much as there once was.
Wise Old Owl
03-19-2011, 20:14
wow - I thought I was over the top about fuel in water bottles, It appears that someone soft deleted a few posts in the thread. But understand that Weary is offering advice to answer the question, and is knowledgeable about backpacking. Maybe the wording was off, but it was from the heart.
There were several posts here about life prior to synthetics, cotton was not part of Hilliary's first climb to Everest, wool was. Prior to 1600's the use of cotton was more connected to warmer countries, Peru, Egypt, Mexico, and Pakistan.
While Hiking I still find a cotton Bandanna a helpful thing to have, but that's about it.
4eyedbuzzard
03-19-2011, 20:15
I see your wisdom, but here is question to ponder.
If those nearby hikers had been wearing nylon running shorts and Duofold T-shirts (my favorite) would they have been any better off?
I agree to some extent - they'd still be wet and cold. And hypothermia is a threat no matter what fabric you are wearing if you get soaked. But you can dry out wool and synthetics a lot more quickly and easily than cotton and they don't weigh 10 times their dry weight when they are wet. Just a better choice for hiking IMO.
But understand that Weary is offering advice to answer the question, and is knowledgeable about backpacking. Maybe the wording was off, but it was from the heart.
There were several posts here about life prior to synthetics, cotton was not part of Hilliary's first climb to Everest, wool was. Prior to 1600's the use of cotton was more connected to warmer countries, Peru, Egypt, Mexico, and Pakistan.
While Hiking I still find a cotton Bandanna a helpful thing to have, but that's about it.
Weary may be knowledgeable about backpacking. But his advice about Cotton is dangerous if taken seriously.
fiddlehead
03-19-2011, 20:21
Cotton has it's place.
Here in the tropics, I wouldn't wear anything else.
In the desert, it is always my long sleeve hiking shirt but of course, I have polypro in the pack for when the weather turns cold or damp.
Weary isn't wrong, he is talking about the times when you had no choice. It didn't kill but people learned to do their best to keep it dry.
Now, a great example, and one you can all try yourself, go jogging in the cold, preferably winter time, wear 3 layers, one lightweight polypro or equiv. next to your skin, a cotton t-shirt, another polypro layer on top of that.
Go out and jog a good hour or so and work up a good sweat.
Come home and see for yourself what happens.
Your first layer will be dry. The second (cotton) layer will be wet and the 3rd layer will be dry. The polypro wicks the sweat away, the cotton holds it in. simple.
When cotton dries, it acts like an air conditioner as the wetness evaporates.
For the AT, cotton is no longer considered advantageous.
For the PCT, southern-most 700 miles, it can be welcomed.
Polypro can really suck when wearing it in the tropics.
Someone said it is a lesson that is (too) often learned the hard way. Learn it on a jog instead of in a wilderness situation.
But you can dry out wool and synthetics a lot more quickly and easily than cotton and they don't weigh 10 times their dry weight when they are wet. Just a better choice for hiking IMO.
I'll buy that.
If you wear glasses a cotton bandana is a must, however. Cleaning them with your poly shirt tail sucks.
SassyWindsor
03-19-2011, 20:27
I agree to some extent - they'd still be wet and cold. And hypothermia is a threat no matter what fabric you are wearing if you get soaked. But you can dry out wool and synthetics a lot more quickly and easily than cotton and they don't weigh 10 times their dry weight when they are wet. Just a better choice for hiking IMO.
Just having a thin synthetic top covering the body core would be many times warmer than any wet cotton could provide. To test it go outside in the next rain in a cotton tee shirt, carry a thermal/synthetic top get both soaking wet, change to the synthetic top once you get chilled, you'll see what I'm talking about. The cotton will take an eternity to dry, as well as heavy in the mean time. You can keep on walking and if the rain stops the synthetic will dry very quickly. Silk is also a good material like synthetic.
I think it goes with out saying that the problem is not cotton per se, but rather wet cotton, right?
But what of the alternative? Is a wet poly propylene shirt or pair of nylon pants much safer?
Wet poly and wet wool both provide better insulative properties when wet. A poly or merino wool base layer, with a poly fleece or wool sweater are much better options than a cotton Tee and a cotton sweatshirt if you are placing yourself in an environment where weather changes quickly and hypothermia is a threat.
Interestingly, the price of cotton is skyrocketing and designers are suggesting that soon only the rich will be swathed in it.
WILLIAM HAYES
03-19-2011, 20:29
forget cotton -in the smokies several years ago in march I stayed in a shelter with a college student who was wearing cotton camo and who had gotten wet in a sleeting snowstorm . He developed hypothermia and had to be airlifted out . my advice wear wool or synthetics
hillbilly
I'll buy that.
If you wear glasses a cotton bandana is a must, however. Cleaning them with your poly shirt tail sucks.
Weary wasn't talking about taking a cotton bandanna. I respect you for backing Weary even when he is obviously wrong. But when the advice given is dangerous I can't support your backing.
rahpsody98,
About Cotton.. if when you hike it is sunny, dry, 80 + and you don't sweat too much you'll be fine. yeah like that ever happens on the AT.
Don't backpack the AT in Cotton. Don't do it. It will rain on you and even if it doesn't, you will get wet from sweat. Then evening comes.. cooling breezes will chill you. All it takes is a 10 minute thunderstorm to go from sweaty hot to damp chilly cold. This is especially true in the NC/TN smokies!
David
SassyWindsor
03-19-2011, 20:42
Telling someone it's fine to wear cotton while hiking could cause someone to loose their life. Not good. If someone new, with limited funds, wants to get geared up decently, go to a used cloths outlet or salvation army store. Chose items that look like outdoor thermals like on REI website. Look at the tags that have polyester, polypropylene, etc and stay away from cotton. Silk is fine as well as wool, but I'd reserve wool for an outer layer, like a sweater. You can find some great deals.
Weary wasn't talking about taking a cotton bandanna. I respect you for backing Weary even when he is obviously wrong. But when the advice given is dangerous I can't support your backing.
Not only didn't I die from using cotton, neither did any of the beginners I've advised over the years. I've never advised wearing ONLY cotton. I have advised that cotton is a legitimate layer -- certainly in summer -- and even winter, if you know what you are doing, and why.
Not only didn't I die from using cotton, neither did any of the beginners I've advised over the years. I've never advised wearing ONLY cotton. I have advised that cotton is a legitimate layer -- certainly in summer -- and even winter, if you know what you are doing, and why.
On this thread you have pushed ONLY cotton. And have challenged those that suggested other fibers.
Wise Old Owl
03-19-2011, 22:14
:DI am still waiting for cuban fiber pants........:D
On this thread you have pushed ONLY cotton. And have challenged those that suggested other fibers.
For what it's worth, I hike with multiple layers. My skin layer is always mostly cotton. Mostly because it's cheap, and because i try to hike mostly with what I have around the house -- including cotton underwear.
Next layer tends to be a variety of fabrics, depending on hike plans, weather predictions, and my knowledge of the terrain. Cotton jeans are a regular, but not a constant. Outer layers always includes good rain gear. It used to include a solid cotton parka, but LL Bean stopped selling such a thing.
But somekind of outerwear always accompanies functions as Includes an outer fragment.
ShelterLeopard
03-19-2011, 23:16
All of the sites I'm reading tell me that cotton is not to be worn on the AT, but I've worn cotton and jeans on every day hike I've ever taken, rain or shine. Is cotton really that awful when you're over-nighting it?
I've worn cotton to bed at night (t shirts and shorts), but almost never while hiking. I like light, sweat wicking clothes during the day.
Windcatcher
03-20-2011, 09:29
Synthetics, silk, wool - if you hike for any length of time you will end up with these types of materials for your most of clothing. They're better for temp control, lighter to carry, more comfortable over the long haul, don't soak up water, don't chafe, and prevent hypothermia. I still take off on an occasional dayhike with a cotton t-shirt or cotton shorts (over a synthetic base layer), depending on the weather. If I do, I usually have a clean, dry cotton t-shirt in the truck for afterwards. The only cotton in my pack for an overnight, weekend, or long haul trip is bandanas.
I went for a day hike yesterday in the rain. It was not raining when we began but all the plants were wet and our hike was a bushwhacking adventure. I was in the lead. I was soaking wet but wearing synthetic fabrics. We stopped for lunch and I became cold because my clothes were wet. So I put on my rain pants (yeah, I wished I had had them on from the beginning but I didn't.) Instantly I warmed right up and didn't even feel wet anymore.
We started hiking back to the cars. On the way up along the non-bushwhacking part of the trail, it started to really rain. I was only wearing my light synthetic jacket over a polyester tank top and my rain pants over my wet hiking pants (which were no longer wet.) I felt very warm and dry, except for sweating. When I reached the cars, it was pretty cold out so first I took off my light rain jacket and let the wind dry my sweat as I stood under the hatcback. Then I put on my fleece jacket which had been strapped to the outside of my pack. It was wet on one side but it was still warm and once I put it on, I couldn't really tell where the wet part was. I warmed right up.
Does cotton provide the same level of comfort under these conditions? No, it certainly does not.
As I waited for everyone else to come up the hill, the last person finally arrived. He was wearing shorts and a cotton hoodie. He had the front completely cinched around his face. He comes on a lot of hikes and has a metabolism you wouldn't believe but here I was warm and comfortable but he was cold, wet and miserable. I hoped he learned something about cotton after that experience.
LoneRidgeRunner
03-20-2011, 11:14
Cotton = "Death Cloth" Wanta die from hypothermia?..wear all cotton about 10 miles in rugged mountain country all day, sweating profusely and then sit out in it (your cotton) in sub zero weather all night..Bet you're carried out in a body bag ...
I hoped he learned something about cotton after that experience.
Not to mention learning something about the benefits of taking a rain gear like you did. Good point about a fleece jacket soaking up less water than cotton hoodie when exposed to the elements. That said, I question how much insulating value even a good fleece jacket will have when exposed to a day of rain like you see so often on the Trail.
ShelterLeopard
03-20-2011, 15:36
And think about it this way. If someone asks you why you had to go off trail, do you want to say (in a very macho voice) "Yeah, I was attacked by a bear*. Intense, right?" Or (in a nerdy voice) "I wore cotton in the rain."
*disclaimer: yes, I know he doesn't actually want to be attacked by a bear.
LoneRidgeRunner
03-20-2011, 16:10
For whoever is interested in a safe healthy hike. Please do not listen to any ones advice saying cotton is ok. It is not. It is a horrible fabric that has no place on a trail that isn't an extremely hot desert day hike. Please do your self a big favor and say no to cotton. It can seriously kill you. People who say it's ok are seriously giving you the wrong advice, whether out of ignorance or negligence, it is very bad to suggest cotton is ever an ok fabric to wear on a long distance hike. Do yourself, your family and the local rescue team a big favor and get synthetic quick dry fabrics.
I second that motion
Cookerhiker
03-20-2011, 16:10
:oThrough the end of 2003, I had hiked about 800 miles of the AT plus backpacked other trails. Most hikes were 2-4 nights, with only one 7 day hike in perfect June weather. Never overnight backpacked before May 1 or after October 30. And I wore cotton all the time. I also had a wool shirt for cold nights but over a cotton t-shirt.
I knew cotton wasn't good for at least the last 10 years but I hiked such short trips that I didn't bother to upgrade my clothing. And I survived, including an early October hike in the Wildcat-Carter Ranges in NH in which about a foot of snow fell (fortunately, it was the first night of my new winter slumberjack sleeping bag).
Having said that, I haven't worn cotton on an overnight since '03, not even one-nighters. I was lucky.
Colin Fletcher's much praised and much purchased editions of the Complete Walker have evolved over the decades. The first edition (1968) reports, "Natural fibers tend to be a great deal more moisture-absorbent than synthetic ... so in general it pays to wear natural fibers such as cotton or wool next to the skin." Colin also wrote he doesn't often wear long johns, but slept in them ("normally cotton") when wind or cold threatens.
The latest -- and last -- edition that came out in 2003, shortly before his death, says, "if you like to wear a cotton T-shirt in warm weather you are free to do so with no more penalty than an extra 3 or 4 ounces." But he advises to remove the cotton tee shirt when using a three-layer system, to avoid nullifying the wicking warmth of synthetic underwear.
Colin Fletcher also wavered in his early praise of cotton corduroy shorts, reporting that by 2003 he mostly wore synthetic shorts made by Patagonia from recycled soft drink bottles.
Someone wrote a few pages back that cotton would be okay on the first 700 miles of the PCT. They are wrong. The first 700 miles of the PCT are perfect for getting yourself into the kind of trouble caused by cotton we're all talking about here. Get yourself good and sweaty during the day and as soon as the sun moves behind a mountain, the temperature drops instantly and you'll freeze. There can be 70 degrees of difference between noon and the middle of the night in So Cal. Don't wear cotton.
All of the sites I'm reading tell me that cotton is not to be worn on the AT, but I've worn cotton and jeans on every day hike I've ever taken, rain or shine. Is cotton really that awful when you're over-nighting it?
Well, getting back to the original question, it depends... obviously you've seen lots of opinions here with regard to the danger of wearing cotton. Again, most overniters are not long ins and out, but they could be. If so, then you've got an issue IF its wet... and mountain weather makes NE weather seem like it never changes.
So, its your decision... even with rain gear, an all day hike back to the car in cotton could really suck to point of being potentially dangerous. If you're hiking an hour or so in, I don't see how it could matter that much, but again, its your decision based on what you know about the weather and the rest of your gear, as well as time needed to get to safe harbor should the unexpected occur - which often it does.
Now, wet jeans are just a totally different story :eek: No jeans are good to hike in no matter how old and comfy they are - wet or dry!
For whoever is interested in a safe healthy hike. Please do not listen to any ones advice saying cotton is ok. It is not. It is a horrible fabric that has no place on a trail that isn't an extremely hot desert day hike. Please do your self a big favor and say no to cotton. It can seriously kill you. People who say it's ok are seriously giving you the wrong advice, whether out of ignorance or negligence, it is very bad to suggest cotton is ever an ok fabric to wear on a long distance hike. Do yourself, your family and the local rescue team a big favor and get synthetic quick dry fabrics.
My advice is to wear whatever you want. But try to avoid being dogmatic. Thousands have worn some cotton in all seasons. Earl Shaffer hiked the trail three times. I suspect he wore cotton on all three trips. Every time I met him (not on the trail) Earl was wearing cotton.
But Colin Fletcher reports that on his last trip in 1998 that Earl wore "a long sleeved plaid shirt. and cotton work pants." I suspect the shirt was also cotton, but Colin doesn't say.
He does say that Earl also carried a down sleeping bag, and a down vest, also a combination many think dangerous, and carried it all in a surplus military rucksack, with the pockets and hipbelt removed.
I do agree that wearing nothing but cotton, is unwise, given the evolution to synthetic fabric. Though I must note that most synthetics are fashioned from oil imported from the middle east. Patagonia fleece clothing is a compromise. The raw material remains mostly oil. But it is twice removed. Pataginia fleece is fashioned from recycled soft drink bottles, or was, which were fashioned from oil.
Anyway. I wear whatever I have around the house that is comfortable, and much of it is cotton now that I rarely do overnight winter trips any more. I do see a lot of cotton as I wander the trails these days. I read of occasional rescues, very few of which, seem to stem from excessive wearing of cotton.
Weary makes some more good points.
A whole lot of people have been convinced to buy synthetic sleeping bags instead of down because "a wet synthetic bag will still provide insulation".
Is this still the thinking of experienced hikers? If not, why not?
I think we need a new slogan though. One for today's hikers.
How about: "Ultra light lessens life"
Surely we can all agree on that.
fiddlehead
03-22-2011, 20:26
Someone wrote a few pages back that cotton would be okay on the first 700 miles of the PCT. They are wrong. The first 700 miles of the PCT are perfect for getting yourself into the kind of trouble caused by cotton we're all talking about here. Get yourself good and sweaty during the day and as soon as the sun moves behind a mountain, the temperature drops instantly and you'll freeze. There can be 70 degrees of difference between noon and the middle of the night in So Cal. Don't wear cotton.
Well, that was me.
And I wore a cotton long sleeve shirt for both of the first 700 miles of my PCT hikes and will next time too.
Two reasons: One, to protect my skin from too much sun (I've spent most of my life outdoors and in the sun) and two: to keep myself from overheating and sweating too much. I have observed construction workers here in the tropics, and they ALL wear as much protection (in the form of cotton) from exposing any portion of their skin to the sun)
I admit, the temps cool down at night as you are higher elevation than most of CA. I take the cotton shirt off when i get to camp and have my polypro and/or fleece to change into.
There is a time and place where cotton has an advantage. IMO
(not on the AT though)
and you do have to have enough experience to know when it is wrong to be wearing cotton.
fiddlehead
03-22-2011, 20:33
By the way, last night, I met a man from Holland who has lived here in the tropics for 35 years and is married to a woman who is from the Malay sea gypsies here who are the indigenous people of this island and practically live at sea and in small island villages where they stop to mend their nets, etc.
After much conversation, there is a real art to what they do. They know more about the winds, currents, effects of sun, moon, seasons, etc. then i've ever imagined.
One of the things we talked about was too much sun and problems of skin cancer.
Have you ever seen Mexican farmers and notice what they wear? Not much polypro in their wardrobe.
Weary makes some more good points.
A whole lot of people have been convinced to buy synthetic sleeping bags instead of down because "a wet synthetic bag will still provide insulation".
Is this still the thinking of experienced hikers? If not, why not?
I think we need a new slogan though. One for today's hikers.
How about: "Ultra light lessens life"
Surely we can all agree on that.
My slogan is: what works is what I do. It might not work for you. Most of the time, I'm light as I can be while still being comfortable.
I do know that ANY Insulation, down or synthetic, will not work well when soaked. People freaking out because of a few drops on the shell are not people who have tried to wash a down bag - it takes a LOT of water to make a down bag/quilt useless. You have to be really stupid to let your sleeping gear get that wet, or just ignorant enough to not put it in a dry bag or trash bag inside the pack when you know there's a huge river to cross. Keep your sleeping gear dry. Don't matter what it's made of - keep it dry! Don't get all complacent thinking your 5 lb synthetic is somehow impervious. You don't think that will be a 15 lb lump of wet insulation? Who wants to carry that? It's not gonna dry out in a few hours of sun!
I know that down gear with part of a baffle somewhat wet will still work fine. I know that I don't want to stand around in a downpour in a down jacket, but that's what a rain shell is for.
I also know that cotton is what you wear when it's hot - or when you will be welding or working a lot around open flame, since it will not melt to your skin the way poly/nylon/rayon will do. I know that the uniform shirt I was issued for search and rescue is a cotton blend, which works pretty well hiking in a parade in the sun, but is a hideously uncomfortable thing on a rainy all night search.
I also know that I will keep on hiking in my polypro, wool and nylon gear, because that's what wicks well, dries fast, and keeps me warm or cool or dry as I need to be under 3 season conditions. And when I get home I put on my cotton T and jeans, and I'm comfortable in those as well. I tried to hike in jeans a few times. Not really comfortable doing that any more, tho it used to be just what I had at the time.
Wise Old Owl
03-22-2011, 20:55
Wow - this is fun.....
Weary makes some more good points.
A whole lot of people have been convinced to buy synthetic sleeping bags instead of down because "a wet synthetic bag will still provide insulation".
Is this still the thinking of experienced hikers? If not, why not?
I think we need a new slogan though. One for today's hikers.
How about: "Ultra light lessens life"
Surely we can all agree on that.
Down does not equal cotton. Weary was wrong. He has backtracked some but is doesn't change the fact that the majority of his posts on this thread are not in the best interest of new hikers asking advice.
Wise Old Owl
03-22-2011, 21:02
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif
Tell Weary to "stay down".
I like wool - natural fabric - stays warm - used through the ages - I bet Earl Shaffer wore more wool than cotton back in the day - just a guess, but old outfitters like LLBean, Filson, etc. did more wool then - that was his style - Gene Espy's too, I think - but those guys also wore cotton and I'm sure got miserably wet and cold.
smart-wool and icebreaker brands are great but an old wool sweater from a surplus store is nice (grandpas old golf sweater, maybe?)
As for the synthetic vs down sleeping bag thing, my summer bag is synthetic and very light - a North Face Propel 40. I several down bags for winter - I work really hard to keep them dry - sometimes condensation is a problem - usually delt with using a pack towel and sometimes my stove - the best brands are lesser known - Sherpa Adventure Gear and Feathered Friends are the best in my opinion
I like wool - natural fabric - stays warm - used through the ages - I bet Earl Shaffer wore more wool than cotton back in the day - just a guess, but old outfitters like LLBean, Filson, etc. did more wool then - that was his style - Gene Espy's too, I think - but those guys also wore cotton and I'm sure got miserably wet and cold.
smart-wool and icebreaker brands are great but an old wool sweater from a surplus store is nice (grandpas old golf sweater, maybe?)
As for the synthetic vs down sleeping bag thing, my summer bag is synthetic and very light - a North Face Propel 40. I several down bags for winter - I work really hard to keep them dry - sometimes condensation is a problem - usually delt with using a pack towel and sometimes my stove - the best brands are lesser known - Sherpa Adventure Gear and Feathered Friends are the best in my opinion
I agree with you. It remains to be seen whether you have prodded the horse to get up yet again or not.
ShelterLeopard
03-23-2011, 10:14
The worst part about cotton (in my opinion) isn't how cold it makes you while you hike (though yes, I know it is the most dangerous part), but how incredibly long it takes to dry.
rhapsody98
03-23-2011, 10:29
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif
Wise Old Owl, I <3 you.
ShelterLeopard
03-23-2011, 10:48
Ha. Awesome!
Wise Old Owl, I <3 you.
WOO helped to encourage the horse to stay up and push cotton. He wrote "But understand that Weary is offering advice to answer the question, and is knowledgeable about backpacking. Maybe the wording was off, but it was from the heart."
WOO helped to encourage the horse to stay up and push cotton. He wrote "But understand that Weary is offering advice to answer the question, and is knowledgeable about backpacking. Maybe the wording was off, but it was from the heart."
I survive the harmful impacts of wearing cotton, by always carrying the gear I need to survive any change in weather conditions. Hikers only rarely seem to die from hypothermia. The one or two that I've heard about were underprepared for conditions, regardless of fabric. I doubt if I've ever saved a life, but several times I've made other hikers more comfortable by lending them an extra sweater or jacket from my pack.
One unmentioned benefit of high thread count cotton twill, is that the close weave can't be penetrated by mosquitoes, thus cutting down on my need for DEET.
I survive the harmful impacts of wearing cotton, by always carrying the gear I need to survive any change in weather conditions. Hikers only rarely seem to die from hypothermia. The one or two that I've heard about were underprepared for conditions, regardless of fabric. I doubt if I've ever saved a life, but several times I've made other hikers more comfortable by lending them an extra sweater or jacket from my pack.
One unmentioned benefit of high thread count cotton twill, is that the close weave can't be penetrated by mosquitoes, thus cutting down on my need for DEET.
Backtracking aside, looks like the horse is not dead. I am glad to learn that hypothermia isn't a big deal after all.
JonathanJ
03-07-2012, 18:05
Cotton does have it's uses. If you're doing rugged work, like working on a trail crew, canvas get be very useful. Also working around fires natural fibers I've found to be superior and much more durable long term. Additionally cotton anoraks can be excellent in dry snow conditions in the winter, same with canvas mukluks.
JonathanJ
03-07-2012, 18:06
Oops, sorry, I just realized this was an old post. I didn't mean to bring it back up.