View Full Version : And now for a completely different safety question.
This is a tough one, so I guess all I can do is bite the bullet and ask flat out.
I'm transgendered, FtM, and planning to thru hike the AT next year with my (male) fiance. I pass as a young man, teenage or early 20s. I'm also a Yankee, and a little concerned about my safety while hiking down south. Would I be best served by posing as my fiance's little brother when we hitch into towns? I'm not worried about other hikers (we can just avoid them, and vice versa, if we make them uncomfortable) but the possibility of trouble with locals scares me a little.
Any thoughts?
F@ck the Haters. I bet you've already encountered ignorant fools who can't understand you where your from and can deal with criticism better then any of the rest of us out here all ready. Be true to yourself and who you are. Don't attempt to be different just to please some backwards redneck. You have already come this far, don't give into hatred and bigotry. Spread the love, and don't succumb to your fear. If you can be brave enough to express yourself transgender, you're brave enough to deal with any BS out there.
4eyedbuzzard
03-18-2011, 23:19
Run when ya hear the preacher or the banjo music.
Seriously, it probably isn't going to be an issue, especially with hikers. But yeah, for convenience sake just say you're cousins on your mom's side, not brothers, if questioned by any pushy locals. That way if you're ID'ed by anyone official for some reason the names not matching won't be an issue.
We'll be married by then, so we'll have the same last name.
harryfred
03-18-2011, 23:28
Your are a who,what, ha? Don't ask, Don't tell, Don't care. Be what ever you want to be we ain't checkin' and we don't give a Rat's a** what your relationship is to the hiker your are with. HYOH and don't give me no sh***.
WingedMonkey
03-18-2011, 23:33
I'm also a Yankee, and a little concerned about my safety while hiking down south. Any thoughts?
"Hate is not a family value"
Bigots come from both sides of the Mason Dixon line.
"Hate is not a family value"
Bigots come from both sides of the Mason Dixon line.
Very true, and I won't say I never run into it up here. Just had a very unpleasant encounter last week, in fact. But you tend not to run into people who are quite so...religiously inclined...around where I live. Or if they are, they don't talk about it or act on it, to my knowledge. But down south, well - I admit I haven't spent much time down there, so my worries are based on what I have heard about how people like me are received in by some people down that way.
you should not have any problems in the south, you can't swing a dead cat around here anymore without hitting a yankee who has moved down here for whatever reason so we are not as bad about shooting them as we once were.:p As far as the transgender Ftm thing, don't see any reason why anyone should bring it up or why you would feel obligated to answer if they did. just stick to the truth..."we're friends' and leave it at that. actually, I was pleasantly surprised at how beautiful NJ was and how friendly the people in the towns along the trail were up north so you may end up like i did with some preconceived ideas proven to be false. Best wishes on your hike.
F@ck the Haters.
I just now got the irony of this quote. well done.
Fog Horn
03-18-2011, 23:49
I would think that avoiding the topic all together wouldn't be completely impossible. I agree with the be who you are and not pretend to be anyone else, but at the same time I can understand your fears. Its a tough choice for you, but I think its going to come down to an intimate decision with you and your future husband. You could even laugh and say you just met. Or you could just use your trail names when someone asks. I can't imagine too many people being that nosy into the personal lives of thru hikers.
I'll be out there next year too, hopefully. Good luck with whatever you decide.
Hikers won't care for the most part. In town, however, I would have a story. One of my best friends usually hikes with me and I just say he's my brother since we look enough alike. I was born and raised in the South, but have spent very large amount of times in NY and New England. Comparatively, there is a lot more bigotry in the South. There's already enough blind hatred towards hikers down here (Exhibit A: The brothers getting jumped in Damascus) for them to think I'm gay too.
stonedflea
03-19-2011, 05:44
"Hate is not a family value"
Bigots come from both sides of the Mason Dixon line.
+1.. thank you!
But down south, well - I admit I haven't spent much time down there, so my worries are based on what I have heard about how people like me are received in by some people down that way.
you'd be surprised what you yankees would fine if y'all ever came down this way, instead of just assuming we don't wear shoes and still wear a white wardrobe. =P :)
SerenitySeeker
03-19-2011, 06:06
North or South I think you will still find a mixture of those who are intollerant...its the one in a mil that will take it to bully level or worse, and those that would bully or worse sometimes hide behind false friendship, and that could happen in the middle of ptown or new york or illinois or anywhere south...its just wrong place with wrong person at wrong time...I always err on the side of caution, trust is best given infrequently and with utmost discretion...not a paranoid just a realist who doesnt want anyone to end up as the exception to the rule when they meet that one in a mil...
mweinstone
03-19-2011, 06:13
im a matthewski. same issues as trannys. i worry. but my friends protect me. each time my meer existance causes some freak to get violent, it could be they saw me sleeping even,...one or more of my very capable friends steps up and says leave him alone. my friends are impressive. and well known among hikerdom. ill share them with you mamm. they would protect you too. even if i didnt introduce you. its what they do. in fact its what hikers do. we dont tolorate fools well. if a town or a dinner messes with you and it gets out? we boycott that place. period. solidarity. its whats hiker. welcome sister.
welcome brother.
Fixed it for you. :p
mweinstone
03-19-2011, 06:22
im billville. confused and annoying. sorry.
I have no idea what a billville is, but no need to be sorry.
Majortrauma
03-19-2011, 08:17
What is the point in deliberately proclaiming to everyone that you're x-gendered? If the point of this post is how to avoid being hassled just don't expose yourself to this ridicule by keeping your personal life private and don't try to make a big political/social issue out of it.
If someone showed up at my camp and made a point of telling me he/she was x-gendered my first question is why in the heck do you think I even care about that and why do you feel the need to tell me? The last thing I want to talk abut with other hikers is their sexual exploits.
njordan2
03-19-2011, 08:27
Simply do not say anything to anyone about it, and you will not get any of the attention you seem to be looking for.
Pedaling Fool
03-19-2011, 08:32
To the OP, you don't get out much do you and your paranoia makes it sound as if you watch too many movies and cable news programs. And this question is not "completely different", lot of people out there with your same sterotyping of the south. I, BTW, am also a yankee from Maryland.
Lone Wolf
03-19-2011, 08:35
Simply do not say anything to anyone about it, and you will not get any of the attention you seem to be looking for.
yeah really. this is a non-issue
don't worry about hikers they are moving from point A to B locals might be a issue but lay low get what you need and move on down the trail
I agree with the advice not to make a point of it. The great majority of hikers and probably townies won't care either way, and the Southerners I've met have mostly been as open-minded and warm as any Yankee. Stereotypes can work both ways. I would have thought construction workers would be very intolerant, but I work with a transgendered FtM who worked closely with a large construction crew during extensive renovations of our site and there were zero issues. He just didn't make an issue of it at all, wasn't trying to be a hero by convincing people to be cool about it, which I think could have been the wrong approach in a situation like that. On the AT too, I wouldn't make an issue of it, till you know people well enough for all to be comfortable.
cold kettle
03-19-2011, 12:36
I was born and raised in the north and have lived in the south Florida & Tennessee for 40+ years. No area seems to have a monopoly on bigotry. I think you will find more acceptance on the trail then off of it. But, never having been in your situation aside, I don't think you will find any greater problem then some shunning.
What is the point in deliberately proclaiming to everyone that you're x-gendered? If the point of this post is how to avoid being hassled just don't expose yourself to this ridicule by keeping your personal life private and don't try to make a big political/social issue out of it.
If someone showed up at my camp and made a point of telling me he/she was x-gendered my first question is why in the heck do you think I even care about that and why do you feel the need to tell me? The last thing I want to talk abut with other hikers is their sexual exploits.
Why do I feel the need? For the exact same reason that women sometimes feel the need to ask about their safety on the trail. Because it's a slight concern, and I wanted to here from people who have been out there that it won't be an issue. I have no intention of talking about it with anyone while hiking, unless they specifically ask me and want to know. It's not a political or social issue, it's a safety concern. Nor it is any more attention seeking than the questions of the aforementioned women who have asked the same question (and not receieved half the antipathy).
Let me spell it out for you - some people are going to immediately guess that I'm female, and wonder why the hell I call myself a boy and why Max is calling me "he", and I'm not sure what I should tell them when and if this happens and they want to know *** is going on. Around here I know what kind of bigotry I might run into, so I know from plentiful experience how I have to handle it. Down there (and yes, I know from personal experience that southerners are for the most part extremely nice and polite people whom I will be happy to meet and chat with) beliefs are social interactions are sometimes different, so the negative encounters might be a type I'm not used to dealing with and might not know how to handle.
Oh, and gender has absolutely nothing to do with "sexual exploits". Just fyi.
If someone thinks you are a girl and somehow figures out that you are not, they'll probably not actually say anything or they'll apologize. Something about these long trails seems to bring out the best in people so I wouldn't worry too much.
If someone thinks you are a girl and somehow figures out that you are not, they'll probably not actually say anything or they'll apologize. Something about these long trails seems to bring out the best in people so I wouldn't worry too much.
Thank you. I just needed a little reassurance, and this is exactly what I was hoping to read. Thanks very much. :)
Montana Mac
03-19-2011, 20:47
This is a tough one, so I guess all I can do is bite the bullet and ask flat out.
I'm transgendered, FtM, and planning to thru hike the AT next year with my (male) fiance. I pass as a young man, teenage or early 20s. I'm also a Yankee, and a little concerned about my safety while hiking down south. Would I be best served by posing as my fiance's little brother when we hitch into towns? I'm not worried about other hikers (we can just avoid them, and vice versa, if we make them uncomfortable) but the possibility of trouble with locals scares me a little.
Any thoughts?
I guess my question is if you pass as a young man what makes you think you will be questioned.
Personally I could give a rats a$$ if your are a FtM or MtF. What I would look at is how you treat others on the trail and mother nature. It is the person within the body that counts the most, IMO.
Enjoy your hike
I guess my question is if you pass as a young man what makes you think you will be questioned.
Because I sometimes am questioned. There's passing and there's passing. I pass at the mall, might not when I'm stuck in a car with someone for 15 minutes. It's a complicated issue, and one I'm happy to discuss with whomever is curious. Just shoot me a PM.
It is the person within the body that counts the most, IMO.
I certainly won't disagree with you on that.
Sierra Echo
03-19-2011, 21:04
Max&Isla, you are being a hater towards fine upstanding southern people. You can keep your butt in Maryland for all I care!!!!!
Majortrauma
03-19-2011, 21:22
OK Max, you are obviously the one trying to draw attention to your condition. You made the decision, now put on your big girl pants and live with it. All you ahd to do was read the plethora of posts aobut female safety and your question could have easily been answered but insted you turned it into a x-gendered issue and have all kinds of attention now which is likely your original goal. Your original post said you could easily pass for male but now later you claim that might not be completely true or words to that effect. If you really are not pulling the whole FtM thing off of course hikers are going to wonder WTH is going on; what did you expect?
And as far las labeling southern rednecks as some kind of freaks, well you sort of made your mea culpa there but it was weak.
We all have our crosses and issues and some take longer than others to work through.
I hope you get things straightened out.
Honestly, if you were to puill into my site ad it was obvious you were a x-gender I'm not going to mess with you or play games. I'd even let you take a few hits off of my Jack Daniels if that's what you like.
I don't agree with what you do but I'm not going to deliberately hurt.
Just hike your own hike.
All you ahd to do was read the plethora of posts aobut female safety and your question could have easily been answered but insted you turned it into a x-gendered issue
Because, while a similar question, it is not the same situation. "Will women run into trouble while thru hiking" is not the same as "will someone who is viewed by many as a sick freak/creature of the devil/something worthy of ridicule and/or abuse just for existing run into trouble on a thru hike".
Your original post said you could easily pass for male but now later you claim that might not be completely true or words to that effect.
Nope, the word "easily" was not in there at all. Just because I try to pass doesn't mean I always do. And at 30 years old, passing as a young man is getting more and more difficult.
If you really are not pulling the whole FtM thing off of course hikers are going to wonder WTH is going on; what did you expect?
Exactly my point! I was just looking for some input on how to handle it.
And as far las labeling southern rednecks as some kind of freaks, well you sort of made your mea culpa there but it was weak.
We all have our crosses and issues and some take longer than others to work through.
I never said anything of the sort - you did. I said that southerners tend to be more religious, and that what I am could be a problem for those who are. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having strong religious beliefs, but it could lead to some conflict in this particular situation.
Honestly, if you were to puill into my site ad it was obvious you were a x-gender I'm not going to mess with you or play games. I'd even let you take a few hits off of my Jack Daniels if that's what you like.
I do love me some JD, and would happily share a swig with you. And I don't mess with people or play games either. I just like to think about what situations I might run into and prepare for them ahead of time, to make them a lot less awkward for all involved when and if they actually happened.
I don't agree with what you do but I'm not going to deliberately hurt.
Just hike your own hike.
No one agrees with everything done by every other person. I disagree with a whole lot of people myself. But, just as you said, I won't cause anyone any grief over it. I hike my own hike on the trail, and everywhere.
MT, You're probably good people (I've found that most people are) and if I ever run into you on the trail, I'll be happy to give you a beer out of my own pack.
Skidsteer
03-19-2011, 22:06
Because, while a similar question, it is not the same situation. "Will women run into trouble while thru hiking" is not the same as "will someone who is viewed by many as a sick freak/creature of the devil/something worthy of ridicule and/or abuse just for existing run into trouble on a thru hike".
People will, in general, assign as much value to you as you assign to yourself.
Your geographical location doesn't have anything to do with it. Enjoy your hike.
Seriously, the people are being pretty mean here on this list but most people don't have transgendered stuff on their mind at all. At the worst, people you meet may just think you're a little weird. Some of them are going to think you are just crazy for walking that far without a weapon and sleeping on the ground and a few are going to just look at you and see a mirror held up for some dream they've always had and never had the courage to do and they won't even see YOU at all.
ShelterLeopard
03-19-2011, 22:52
This is a tough one, so I guess all I can do is bite the bullet and ask flat out.
I'm transgendered, FtM, and planning to thru hike the AT next year with my (male) fiance. I pass as a young man, teenage or early 20s. I'm also a Yankee, and a little concerned about my safety while hiking down south. Would I be best served by posing as my fiance's little brother when we hitch into towns? I'm not worried about other hikers (we can just avoid them, and vice versa, if we make them uncomfortable) but the possibility of trouble with locals scares me a little.
Totally a valid safety question. (I know some of this was addressed in some later responses, but some of it wasn't) It's in a similar category as: "I'm a young solo female, should I be worried?", though with a hate crime slant.
You're pretty safe on trail. Most people on the AT are open minded or just plain don't care. In towns, you're mostly pretty safe. But be careful. Bad things do happen, and stupid people do exist. (This goes for towns above and below the mason-dixon, by the way.) I'm a lesbian and had no problems on trail myself, but my situation was different from yours. The only difference between this- the AT- and normal life is that you're on unfamiliar territory.
What is the point in deliberately proclaiming to everyone that you're x-gendered? If the point of this post is how to avoid being hassled just don't expose yourself to this ridicule by keeping your personal life private and don't try to make a big political/social issue out of it.
If someone showed up at my camp and made a point of telling me he/she was x-gendered my first question is why in the heck do you think I even care about that and why do you feel the need to tell me? The last thing I want to talk abut with other hikers is their sexual exploits.
MajorTrauma- It is not "proclaiming" or boasting or flaunting. It isn't like Max and Isla are going to go around saying "Hi, I'm so and so, and I'm transgendered!" It is being your self. When someone asks me if I'm dating anyone and I tell them about my girlfriend, do you think I'm flaunting my sexuality? You have no idea what it feels like to be in the closet. What you're trying to say is that all GLBTQ people should stay in the closet, and that their life is some strange sexual escapade that you just don't want to hear about. That attitude is just as bad as people who say that gay and transgender people are going to hell.
To the OP, you don't get out much do you and your paranoia makes it sound as if you watch too many movies and cable news programs. And this question is not "completely different", lot of people out there with your same sterotyping of the south. I, BTW, am also a yankee from Maryland.
John- it isn't paranoia. You've obviously never dealt with something like this. You don't know how it feels to be talking with some person you met along the way, having a perfectly nice, normal chat, and suddenly, your sexuality or sexual orientation comes out in passing, and they palpably shrink back, and maybe give you a dirty look. Even tell you you're going to hell. (Or worse, that you should go to hell.) I'm not easily shaken, and sh1t like that scares me.
(Sorry if most of that was already addressed by other posts, I'm not fantastic at consolidating things, and wanted my thoughts out there.)
ShelterLeopard
03-19-2011, 22:58
And what SBhikes said is true- town people will most likely think you're crazier for wanting to sleep on the ground than for being transgendered. With most non hiker people, the one thing they'll get from talking with you (whether you also mention that you're transgendered, or the smartest person in the world, or whatever) is that you are WILLINGLY sleeping outside, all the time, and eating weird food, and not showering. Because you WANT to.
Because, while a similar question, it is not the same situation. "Will women run into trouble while thru hiking" is not the same as "will someone who is viewed by many as a sick freak/creature of the devil/something worthy of ridicule and/or abuse just for existing run into trouble on a thru hike".
Many hikers only see the beauty along the AT, because it is abundant. I think you will too.
That said, everyone should bear in mind that hate is still out there, and hate crimes of the most vile sort have been perpetrated on or near the trail. The links below recount the only examples I know of-- if others exist they are virtually unknown among hikers.
I have no doubt that many on this list think poorly of me for sharing this kind information, but so be it.
Your question was very appropriate.
http://www.aldha.org/arrest02.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Whole-Truth-Murder-Appalachian-Trail/dp/155849166X/ref=pd_sim_b_1
If you've got enough energy to harass someone you still have enough left in you to hike 10 more miles....
I don't know about ya'll but when I'm hiking I don't have the time nor the desire to mess with anyone.
SassyWindsor
03-19-2011, 23:08
Don't be surprised if someone trys to mess with your "Trail Name"
ShelterLeopard
03-19-2011, 23:11
And the only way to escape a bad trail name is to out-hike those from whom it came. And it may still catch up with you. (Someone tried to out-hike cowpie two years ago. Didn't work)
We already have trail names. :-)
4eyedbuzzard
03-19-2011, 23:48
I would agree that for the most part, the OP's gender identity will not be an issue, and especially so with hikers. Heck, we're more interested in finding out if they have some Snickers in their pack - not what they're packing in their knickers. :D
But in defense of the OP, I do understand why they may be uncertain as to if they will face greater discrimination or problems in "the south". Incidents of discrimination against trans-gendered people, such as the case Glenn v Brumby et al (http://data.lambdalegal.org/in-court/downloads/glenn_ga_20080722_complaint-for-declaratory-and-injunctive-relief.pdf), received nationwide coverage and didn't particulary shed a good light, at least officially, on how in this instance, the State of Georgia views trans-gendered persons or the protection of their rights as citizens.
The case was heard by the United States District Court for the Northern District Of Georgia. The court granted Glenn's motion for summary judgment against Brumby / State of Georgia for discrimination on the basis of sex. http://www.employeerightspost.com/uploads/file/glenn_ga_20100702_decision-us-district-court-motion-to-dismiss.pdf
For those unfamiliar with the case, Vandy Beth Glenn, formerly Glenn Morrison, was fired in 2007 from her job as an editor at the Georgia General Assembly’s Office of Legislative Counsel. At the time, the decision to fire her came from a decision by Sewell Brumby, Georgia General Assembly’s Legislative Counsel, after consultation with Glenn Richarson, Speaker of the Georgia House of Representatives; Casey Cagle, Lieutenant Governor; Eric Johnson, President Pro Tempore of the Georgia Senate; and Robyn Underwood, Georgia General Assembly's Legislative Fiscal Officer.
Brumby, after consultation and discussion with the other named defendants (pretty powerful folks from their titles), informed Glenn that she was being fired because in the view of her employers, "her gender transition and presentation of herself as a woman would be seen as immoral, could not happen appropriately in the workplace in which Glenn worked, and would make other employees uncomfortable."
So while the fine people of the State of Georgia may very well not fit the stereotype as being unfriendly toward GLBT people, unfortunately, their own elected legislature gave them a big black eye in the minds of many, especially in the GLBT community. If a state's government, at the highest levels, doesn't take discrimination seriously, and finds it okay to fire someone from a job based upon gender identity, why would one expect its citizens to respect GLBT people's rights any better? I think it's a fair question and concern.
Again, I don't think it's honestly going to be an issue, especially with the hiking community, but it is an example as to why GLBT people might have legitimate concerns regarding how they may be treated or perhaps not welcomed in some southern states.
Sierra Echo
03-19-2011, 23:53
Rooster, I have found the most discriminating people in Ga to be transplants and half backs. Can you explain THAT? Perhaps northeners arent as accepting as people would like to think.
Rooster, I have found the most discriminating people in Ga to be transplants and half backs. Can you explain THAT? Perhaps northeners arent as accepting as people would like to think.
imo, you are wasting your time trying to debate issues around perceptions and stereotypes regarding people from the south. My advice - let this argument go.
Sierra Echo
03-20-2011, 08:58
imo, you are wasting your time trying to debate issues around perceptions and stereotypes regarding people from the south. My advice - let this argument go.
You're right 4shot. I just get very sick of ignorance. You would think mature grownups would know better.
randyg45
03-20-2011, 09:12
Yeah, I'm from West Virginia, raised in Ga, moved back to West Virginia.
So tired of being stereotyped by supposedly tolerant people.
Guarantee you this is this persons major topic of conversation, flung into the face of everyone.... he?.... meets.
This is an exercise in projection.
Believe me, just keep it zipped up and we don't care.
You're right 4shot. I just get very sick of ignorance. You would think mature grownups would know better.
fyi, we are not dealing with "mature grownups" in the thru-hiker forum. this is for people who willingly walk the mountains from Ga. to Maine (or vice versa) for 5-6 months or at least attempt to do so. So, therefore, we are talking about lunatics and crazy people, regardless of were they are from!;)
1. Have you had surgery? Have some parts been reduced? Some parts added?
LoneRidgeRunner
03-20-2011, 10:22
+1.. thank you!
you'd be surprised what you yankees would fine if y'all ever came down this way, instead of just assuming we don't wear shoes and still wear a white wardrobe. =P :)
And we don't marry our first cousins and or brothers and sisters anymore...:rolleyes::rolleyes: Northerner's preconceptions of the South are ridiculous!!
I've been to Georgia. People post the 10 commandments on signs in their yards. They put them up on signs on the freeway. It's the only southern state (besides Florida) I've ever been to. I can see being a little wary of the south after visiting.
I've been to Georgia. People post the 10 commandments on signs in their yards. They put them up on signs on the freeway. It's the only southern state (besides Florida) I've ever been to. I can see being a little wary of the south after visiting.
yea, religious people are dangerous. gimma a break.
I've been to Georgia. People post the 10 commandments on signs in their yards. They put them up on signs on the freeway. It's the only southern state (besides Florida) I've ever been to. I can see being a little wary of the south after visiting.
for the record ma'am Florida is not a southern state. this is another misperception held by people from outside the south. It's a common mistake. It is in the south, true, but it is not southern. there's a big difference.
Sierra Echo
03-20-2011, 11:25
I've been to Georgia. People post the 10 commandments on signs in their yards. They put them up on signs on the freeway. It's the only southern state (besides Florida) I've ever been to. I can see being a little wary of the south after visiting.
I have NEVER seen the 10 commandments posted on signs in yards or on freeways. I have no idea where you went, but it could have been only been better after you left.
Alabamian here. I don't know much about your circumstance or even know what MtF means (assuming male to female) so what gender are you now? My concern would be seeing a male appearing person entering a female restroom - is that realistic? I would confront you on that one, so how would you handle it? Getting picked up by a man thinking you're female only to realize when the time comes that you are not would be an issue.
You asked about the south, anywhere in particular? Southern states can be further broken down into areas of the south and then again by city folk vs country folk. For the most part i imagine we are as all people are - varied in our beliefs, morals, and responses. Look at the different responses here on WB and where the post are from. Can you tell a persons location by their responses?
I have no idea where you went, but it could have been only been better after you left.
Sierra,let it go. as the saying goes, if you lie down with pigs you only get mud on yourself. you cannot teach others tolerance by arguing with them.
randyg45
03-20-2011, 11:34
I knew vampires were leery of crosses, of course; I was unaware people were frightened by Bible verses.
I'm sure there's a lesson there for me somewhere.
BTW, do you stereotype other religions, or only Christianity?
Sierra Echo
03-20-2011, 11:35
Sierra,let it go. as the saying goes, if you lie down with pigs you only get mud on yourself. you cannot teach others tolerance by arguing with them.
4shot once again you are quite right. If you mess with garbage you end up getting filth on you, and I don't want to go back to work tomorrow smelling bad.
But in defense of the OP, I do understand why they may be uncertain as to if they will face greater discrimination or problems in "the south". Incidents of discrimination against trans-gendered people, such as the case Glenn v Brumby et al (http://data.lambdalegal.org/in-court/downloads/glenn_ga_20080722_complaint-for-declaratory-and-injunctive-relief.pdf), received nationwide coverage and didn't particulary shed a good light, at least officially, on how in this instance, the State of Georgia views trans-gendered persons or the protection of their rights as citizens.
The case was heard by the United States District Court for the Northern District Of Georgia. The court granted Glenn's motion for summary judgment against Brumby / State of Georgia for discrimination on the basis of sex. http://www.employeerightspost.com/uploads/file/glenn_ga_20100702_decision-us-district-court-motion-to-dismiss.pdf
For those unfamiliar with the case, Vandy Beth Glenn, formerly Glenn Morrison, was fired in 2007 from her job as an editor at the Georgia General Assembly’s Office of Legislative Counsel. At the time, the decision to fire her came from a decision by Sewell Brumby, Georgia General Assembly’s Legislative Counsel, after consultation with Glenn Richarson, Speaker of the Georgia House of Representatives; Casey Cagle, Lieutenant Governor; Eric Johnson, President Pro Tempore of the Georgia Senate; and Robyn Underwood, Georgia General Assembly's Legislative Fiscal Officer.
Brumby, after consultation and discussion with the other named defendants (pretty powerful folks from their titles), informed Glenn that she was being fired because in the view of her employers, "her gender transition and presentation of herself as a woman would be seen as immoral, could not happen appropriately in the workplace in which Glenn worked, and would make other employees uncomfortable."
So while the fine people of the State of Georgia may very well not fit the stereotype as being unfriendly toward GLBT people, unfortunately, their own elected legislature gave them a big black eye in the minds of many, especially in the GLBT community. If a state's government, at the highest levels, doesn't take discrimination seriously, and finds it okay to fire someone from a job based upon gender identity, why would one expect its citizens to respect GLBT people's rights any better? I think it's a fair question and concern.
Again, I don't think it's honestly going to be an issue, especially with the hiking community, but it is an example as to why GLBT people might have legitimate concerns regarding how they may be treated or perhaps not welcomed in some southern states.
Excellent post, Buzzard.
It's unfortunate cases like this that enforce stereotypes.
Hahaha is the Yankee verses Southerner thing really that big amongst you Easterners? Seriously don't you guys know, that it is really all about the WEST COAST!!! California Love!!!
LOL see y'all on the trail.
Wow, this is a tough crowd! I haven't been on this forum for too long, but some of the posts in this thread are surprising to me, and counter to my view of what thru hikers are like. Guess you need to have a thick skin to post here.
anyway, on the theme of tolerance and the South, timely article in the NYT on interracial marriage increasing in the South:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/us/20race.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha23
peace and tolerance to all...
I knew vampires were leery of crosses, of course; I was unaware people were frightened by Bible verses.
I'm sure there's a lesson there for me somewhere.
BTW, do you stereotype other religions, or only Christianity?
Here is a link to some scary bible references. They are in the letter written by a Pennsylvania woman to the judge handling the Rebecca White murder trial.
http://books.google.com/books?id=El-CypXgpbwC&lpg=PP1&dq=The%20whole%20truth%2C%20murder%20on%20the%20ap palachian%20trail&pg=PA92#v=snippet&q=%22Dear%20Judge%20Spicer%22&f=false
ShelterLeopard
03-20-2011, 15:30
Tough crowd is right Blitz, jeez...
I think everyone is taking the Southern thing a little too seriously. Bottom line is, there are some more religious people in the South, and there are still pieces of legislation that make it legal to fire someone for their sexual orientation down there, but most of the misconceptions about the South are, well, misconceptions. There are a few intolerant, scary people almost everywhere. Just be careful.
I visited Atlanta and drove up toward a women's prison in northern Georgia and over toward Blood Mountain where I did a day hike. Overall I really enjoyed Georgia except for the traffic. I loved that store at Neel Gap and I really liked eating boiled peanuts at a farmers market.
I was a little afraid in those small towns where the 10 commandments were posted on the freeway and all over town as the overall message was that god's laws apply here, not the laws of man. Sorry but I have never seen anything like that in California, even though there are a few towns in California I'd be really scared to stay in for long (Fallbrook? East L.A.?)
WingedMonkey
03-20-2011, 15:43
for the record ma'am Florida is not a southern state. this is another misperception held by people from outside the south. It's a common mistake. It is in the south, true, but it is not southern. there's a big difference.
LOL tell that to my family that has been here since before statehood.
stonedflea
03-20-2011, 15:43
for the record ma'am Florida is not a southern state. this is another misperception held by people from outside the south. It's a common mistake. It is in the south, true, but it is not southern. there's a big difference.
+1 exactly :D
charleston's not nearly as south as i'd like to think it is, either. half the people here are from ohio.
I didn't consider Florida "the south" exactly, just that it's the only other state in that part of the world I've been. I can't even say I visited Florida anyway since I rarely stepped outside the hotel where they put me up for some boring conference. The only other eastern state I've been to is New York--the Catskills, the Fingerlakes and Long Island.
"Englewood, always up to no good!"
Religious people are extremely dangerous and scary, counter to what someone on the last page wrote. If it wasn't for religion we would have never attacked the Muslims in the Middle East, and the Muslims wouldn't be using their faith as an excuse to attack Western nations.
For as long as their has been religion people have used it as a convenient excuse to attack others who will not follow their BS doctrines. The laws of man apply here on earth and it's very sad that some people can't relate. It's scary the bible says to take homosexuals out of your camp and stone them to death, several different times. Transgendered and Homosexual are completely different things, but some whack jobs can't see past the religion, and are a threat to all humanity.
Have fun and see you guys out on the trail.
Pedaling Fool
03-20-2011, 16:28
I understand the sentiment about Florida not being a true southern state, although there are some pockets, but that's not the point.
The reason is because of all the transplants (guilty) to this state. Look at Atlanta Georgia, does anyone really consider that city a southern city? I don't. Even other southern states are looking less southern, because of the migration.
The plain and simple fact is the northern states are starting to really suck and that's coming from a non-southerner.
LoneRidgeRunner
03-20-2011, 16:33
don't ask..don't tell.oops you have already "bragged" about it..I guess you want the attention..
Pedaling Fool
03-20-2011, 16:35
"Englewood, always up to no good!"
Religious people are extremely dangerous and scary, counter to what someone on the last page wrote. If it wasn't for religion we would have never attacked the Muslims in the Middle East, and the Muslims wouldn't be using their faith as an excuse to attack Western nations.
For as long as their has been religion people have used it as a convenient excuse to attack others who will not follow their BS doctrines. The laws of man apply here on earth and it's very sad that some people can't relate. It's scary the bible says to take homosexuals out of your camp and stone them to death, several different times. Transgendered and Homosexual are completely different things, but some whack jobs can't see past the religion, and are a threat to all humanity.
Have fun and see you guys out on the trail.
No religion, no war:rolleyes: That's just ignorant. You really don't understand human nature.
BTW, I'm not a religious person, so I'm not defending it; yes people do things in the name of religion and some actually believe it. However, many others just use religion as an excuse or a way to get people riled up. If there were no religion, we'd find something else to fight about. It's only natural.
There's already enough blind hatred towards hikers down here (Exhibit A: The brothers getting jumped in Damascus) for them to think I'm gay too.
Just for clarification's sake, the brothers were jumped by a douchebag thug that most of the town can't stand. It really wouldn't have mattered if they were hikers or not, because he still would've jumped whoever was walking on that bridge that night.
for the record ma'am Florida is not a southern state. this is another misperception held by people from outside the south. It's a common mistake. It is in the south, true, but it is not southern. there's a big difference.
I beg to differ. The northern part where I grew up was definitely southern--even according to Skynyrd!:D
ShelterLeopard
03-20-2011, 16:41
don't ask..don't tell.oops you have already "bragged" about it..I guess you want the attention..
Are you serious?
LoneRidgeRunner
03-20-2011, 16:42
I understand the sentiment about Florida not being a true southern state, although there are some pockets, but that's not the point.
The reason is because of all the transplants (guilty) to this state. Look at Atlanta Georgia, does anyone really consider that city a southern city? I don't. Even other southern states are looking less southern, because of the migration.
The plain and simple fact is the northern states are starting to really suck and that's coming from a non-southerner.
To me it's starting to look like there are no true "southern" OR "northern" states any more Example...I live in a small town of around 20,000 in the foothills of western NC, obviously "southern" right... sadly "WRONG" walk around town here on a Saturday around noon and you'll think you're in Mexico..LOL..or India....or Asia..mostly Mexico though..
sheepdog
03-20-2011, 16:44
"Englewood, always up to no good!"
Religious people are extremely dangerous and scary, counter to what someone on the last page wrote. If it wasn't for religion we would have never attacked the Muslims in the Middle East, and the Muslims wouldn't be using their faith as an excuse to attack Western nations.
For as long as their has been religion people have used it as a convenient excuse to attack others who will not follow their BS doctrines. The laws of man apply here on earth and it's very sad that some people can't relate. It's scary the bible says to take homosexuals out of your camp and stone them to death, several different times. Transgendered and Homosexual are completely different things, but some whack jobs can't see past the religion, and are a threat to all humanity.
Have fun and see you guys out on the trail.
Stalin killed millions. He was an atheist. There are lots more. Study history.
LoneRidgeRunner
03-20-2011, 16:49
I beg to differ. The northern part where I grew up was definitely southern--even according to Skynyrd!:D
Gypsy...Jacksonville maybe? .... yep..that part of Florida is southern....I have relatives there and lived there for a while myself..
And Skynyrd was the greatest! Until that horrible plane crash in 1977..
Gypsy...Jacksonville maybe? .... yep..that part of Florida is southern....I have relatives there and lived there for a while myself..
And Skynyrd was the greatest! Until that horrible plane crash in 1977..
You got it!
WingedMonkey
03-20-2011, 17:02
You got it!
Now that's scary if qypsy was my cousin.
:sun
mkmangold
03-20-2011, 18:14
don't ask..don't tell.oops you have already "bragged" about it..I guess you want the attention..
I agree. Someone's poking at the monkeys in the cage.
I've been to Georgia. People post the 10 commandments on signs in their yards. They put them up on signs on the freeway. It's the only southern state (besides Florida) I've ever been to. I can see being a little wary of the south after visiting.
i have one in my yard right now.
Lone Wolf
03-20-2011, 20:08
the duality of the southern thang...enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MIztbe1_e8
4shot once again you are quite right. If you mess with garbage you end up getting filth on you, and I don't want to go back to work tomorrow smelling bad.
Ohhhhhhhh that was serious pwnage.
i have one in my yard right now.
Why do you do it?
Skidsteer
03-20-2011, 21:09
Why do you do it?
Simple.
It complements the "We don't dial 911" sign. It's a synergistic effect.
Bless your heart.
Lone Wolf
03-20-2011, 21:11
Why do you do it?
do you have bumper stickers on your prius? "free tibet" and such? just a form of expression
Montana Mac
03-20-2011, 21:28
I have NEVER seen the 10 commandments posted on signs in yards or on freeways. I have no idea where you went, but it could have been only been better after you left.
I lived in Deer Lodge, TN and yes they do post the 10 Commandments on signs in their yard along with other religious signs.
Guess what, it is their yard and as far as I know the 1st Amendment is still in force.
I wanted to post a sign in my yard that read Man Made Beer, God Made Pot, Who Do You Want To Trust. :D My wife at the time didn't think it was one of my better ideas :-?
This thread has certainly gone off on a tangent.
HYOH and if the question comes up, as I am sure it has in the past, I am sure you will be able to handle as you have in the past. Go enjoy you adventure
Alligator
03-20-2011, 21:35
The OP is concerned about attitudes toward the transgendered. People traveling from other regions (Point A) may have concerns about going to other regions/state/countries (Point B). Given the incidence of hate crimes against LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender) individuals nationwide this concern is certainly valid. Whether or not it is something to worry about in the South is possibly stereotypical. So those of you living there maybe you could answer the question? Should the couple in the opening post walk down the street and display the normal affection that a heterosexual couple might? There are fewer laws protecting LGBT individuals against hate crimes and discrimination in the South (http://www.lgbtmap.org/equality-maps/legal_hc)
WingedMonkey
03-20-2011, 21:56
Susan Stanton formally Steve Stanton was fired as city manager of Largo Florida in 2007 after a much debate of her being transgender. In 2009 Susan was hired by the town of Lake Worth Florida next door to me as City Manager. What one town in Florida could not stand another embraced. I suppose laws have little affect on attitude. Any time she is mentioned in the local newspaper now, it is only in relation to her job as manager.
I've been to Georgia. People post the 10 commandments on signs in their yards. They put them up on signs on the freeway. It's the only southern state (besides Florida) I've ever been to. I can see being a little wary of the south after visiting.Those signs are there for dumbazzes who think "turn the other cheek" is a commandment. So you'll be alright if you STAY OUT OF THE YARD!!
The OP is concerned about attitudes toward the transgendered. People traveling from other regions (Point A) may have concerns about going to other regions/state/countries (Point B). Given the incidence of hate crimes against LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender) individuals nationwide this concern is certainly valid. Whether or not it is something to worry about in the South is possibly stereotypical. So those of you living there maybe you could answer the question? Should the couple in the opening post walk down the street and display the normal affection that a heterosexual couple might? There are fewer laws protecting LGBT individuals against hate crimes and discrimination in the South (http://www.lgbtmap.org/equality-maps/legal_hc)
Interesting how nothing on that map surprises me at all. Except for Texas maybe.
This map is interesting, too.
http://www.esquire.com/features/hate-crime-0608
Don't need hate crime laws.
This map is interesting, too.
http://www.esquire.com/features/hate-crime-0608
Not after you factor in population density. *yawn*
Wow, this is a tough crowd! I haven't been on this forum for too long, but some of the posts in this thread are surprising to me, and counter to my view of what thru hikers are like. ...
an internet message board were anyone and everyone can post anonymously with the thru-hiking community. To be frank, I'd be surprised if even 30% of the responses here were from people who have thru hiked the AT. On the trail, everyone who puts in the work and the miles are accepted by the other thru-hikers regardless of age, gender, political or religious affiliation, sexual orientation,etc. That should be some comfort to the original poster.
Back to the OP....read all the endless threads from potential thru-hikers on WB...what about the bears? what about this or that? do you think my tent is good enough? what if I get sick in the Whites? what if people are mean? what if it rains alot? what if I don't start with the right type of shoe? What if I can't get a signal for my smartphone? At the end of the day, everyone for the most part who is planning a thru is scared and nervous about something. while your question (and situation) is perhaps unique (or so you may think), you and your partner are really no different than all the others who are planning a thru - you'll either confront and overcome your fear (hiking in the south while being a transgenderwhatever) like all the other thru-hikers did or you will fail. Not wanting to be insensitive to your situation but that is the bottom line. Now quit worrying and start hiking and enjoy yourself. Or let your fear keep you at home.
Not after you factor in population density. *yawn*
Actually it's per capita, so population density is factored in. The interesting part is the disclaimer at the bottom:
"About the methodology: To determine rates of hate-crime incidents per capita, we took the number of hate-crime incidents reported to the FBI by cooperating local and state agencies and divided it by the total populations covered by those cooperating agencies. Some states had more cooperating agencies than others (reporting to the FBI is not mandatory) and many states have different definitions of hate crimes, making state-to-state comparisons problematic at best. Nonetheless, this map reflects the federal government’s most accurate measurement of the current prevalence of hate crimes."
Back to the OP....read all the endless threads from potential thru-hikers on WB...what about the bears? what about this or that? do you think my tent is good enough? what if I get sick in the Whites? what if people are mean? what if it rains alot? what if I don't start with the right type of shoe? What if I can't get a signal for my smartphone? At the end of the day, everyone for the most part who is planning a thru is scared and nervous about something. while your question (and situation) is perhaps unique (or so you may think), you and your partner are really no different than all the others who are planning a thru - you'll either confront and overcome your fear (hiking in the south while being a transgenderwhatever) like all the other thru-hikers did or you will fail. Not wanting to be insensitive to your situation but that is the bottom line. Now quit worrying and start hiking and enjoy yourself. Or let your fear keep you at home.
Very true. I'm definitely not one to be deterred by fear. I've done things that are much tougher (psychologically) than this hike. I'm a tough dude and so is Max - we'll figure things out, and we'll be fine. I just prefer to approach anything unfamiliar with a little caution. It's not good to let fear take over, but a little caution is never a bad idea. No paralyzing fear here - just preparation for having the time of my life. :D
randyg45
03-20-2011, 23:56
Simple.
It complements the "We don't dial 911" sign. It's a synergistic effect.
Bless your heart.
:banana:banana Guns, the Bible, and "synergistic!!! A Renaissance Man fer shur!! :banana:banana
I can at least agree on the gun thing. I keep my Nagant carbine propped against the wall by my bed. Not because I think I'll need it, but because it's pretty and I like looking at it. ;)
randyg45
03-21-2011, 00:18
That is just too funny. I am a big proponent of concealed carry but didn't think you sounded like a candidate (yes, maybe part of that was my own stereotyping. Sorry)
You can read up on state-by-state gun laws here:
http://www.carryconcealed.net/
The Maryland CCW law sucks, but it used to be that someone from out-of-state could get a Florida permit by mail; Florida has/had reciprocity agreements with a large number of other states.
For an ultralight option, consider the NAA Black Widow....
That's a cute little thing, but I'm just not big on revolvers. They tend to have accuracy issues, and it's so much easier to reload with a clip.
stranger
03-21-2011, 00:43
I think the OP has a valid question...
As someone who hasn't lived in the USA since 2001, I think I have an fairly objective view on this sort of thing, after living in New Zealand for 7.5 years and Australia ever since...
America, in general...is very conservative and not very tolerant of GLBTI (Gay, Lesbian, Bi-sexual, Transgendered, Intersex) people compared to many other countries.
The south, in places...is far more conservative than the rest of America, not everywhere but it absolutely exists.
I have personally experienced comments that offended me by some individuals who were referring to GLBTI people, African American, or any number of Hispanic cultures. Saying that, I think these people were not meaning to offend me, I personally believe that they don't know any better, and I do not think they would do anything hurtful towards another person.
If you pass, you probably have little to worry about, and in any context, hikers will be most accomodating of people you meet, but be aware many AT hikers are young, immature males, who lack life skills, life experience and the hardships of life that shape a person, their behavor reflects this fact.
Overall, I wouldn't be overly concerned about it, but you do need to think about certain aspects of your situation, and not just in the south.
stranger
03-21-2011, 00:46
...and while I have not lived in the USA since 2001, I visit about every 8 months, for about 6 weeks, so this information is based on recent experiences.
A straight answer to your question is you will deal with it like you deal with it everywhere else. You have way more experience with this than any of us. Maybe you're more likely to get beaten up in Tennessee than you are in New York but last I checked upstate wasn't exactly a bastion of liberal thought. The only advice I could possibly give you about southern states is to treat the people you meet with the same openness that you are hoping to receive. After all we do happen to have LGBT people down here as well.
scooterdogma
03-21-2011, 07:23
Actually it's per capita, so population density is factored in. The interesting part is the disclaimer at the bottom:
"About the methodology: To determine rates of hate-crime incidents per capita, we took the number of hate-crime incidents reported to the FBI by cooperating local and state agencies and divided it by the total populations covered by those cooperating agencies. Some states had more cooperating agencies than others (reporting to the FBI is not mandatory) and many states have different definitions of hate crimes, making state-to-state comparisons problematic at best. Nonetheless, this map reflects the federal government’s most accurate measurement of the current prevalence of hate crimes."
As a retired federal agent I can tell you for every prosecuted hate crime there are thousands more that the prosecutor chooses not to prosecute as a hate crime. The reason is because the prosecutor is afraid he/she will lose a jury trial as soon as sexual orientation is mentioned. The prosecutor's main objective is to bring justice to the victim and punishment to the perpetrator. As an out lesbian I understood the prosecutor's concern for the culture and beliefs of the community clouding the judgment of a few jurors. Some people will always ignore the facts of a case and follow their emotions to obtain a verdict. Raising the issue of sexual orientation guarantees strong emotions will become the guiding filter through which the jury views the case. As a result of prosecutoral choice, there is a significant number of assaults/murders against the LGBT community that never appear in any local or national statistics.
I'm sure, the OP is aware of this statistical anomaly and factored it into his decision about raising the question about his safety. He was correct in bringing this question to the hiking community. A message board allows him the safety of distance to raise his concerns. From the diverse responses received he has been able to get some inkling of the attitudes around the trail. With this gathered information he can formulate a more informed decision on how to safely Hike his Own Hike.
Enjoy your time on the trail Max & Isla. I have found the trail to be a wonderful group of people whom enjoy nature and the diversity of souls putting one foot in front of the other toward a common goal.
... To be frank, I'd be surprised if even 30% of the responses here were from people who have thru hiked the AT. On the trail, everyone who puts in the work and the miles are accepted by the other thru-hikers regardless of age, gender, political or religious affiliation, sexual orientation,etc.
WB is for AT enthusiast, That includes weekend warriors as myself. Not just thru hikers.
If any problems arise it won't be from hikers, but from locals.
Having said that, I would worry more about some liquored up red neck, than I would about someone who goes to church.
The OP is concerned about attitudes toward the transgendered. People traveling from other regions (Point A) may have concerns about going to other regions/state/countries (Point B). Given the incidence of hate crimes against LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender) individuals nationwide this concern is certainly valid. Whether or not it is something to worry about in the South is possibly stereotypical. So those of you living there maybe you could answer the question? Should the couple in the opening post walk down the street and display the normal affection that a heterosexual couple might? There are fewer laws protecting LGBT individuals against hate crimes and discrimination in the South (http://www.lgbtmap.org/equality-maps/legal_hc)
i don't want to see a heterosexual couple walking down the middle of main street pawing all over each other in our poor, deprived, backwoods, ignant South, so why the hell would i want to see any other combination do it? other than that, all the Southerners i know wouldn't give a **** what you think you are. as for the op, you're a hypocrite. judge not, lest ye be judged. how's that for some religious mantra. i think it applies to life in general. i'm all for you keeping your bigoted yankee ass up north.
WB is for AT enthusiast, That includes weekend warriors as myself. Not just thru hikers.
that is fair and I agree that this board is for the enjoyment and entertainment of all who enjoy the AT (or are preparing to enjoy it), no matter how far or long they hike. But please reread the quote to which I responded, I think it was blitz. He was making imo unwarranted assumptions about thru-hikers based on some of the comments in this thread. No offense intended.
also, to those from Florida whose toes I stepped on - welcome (back) to the south brothers! apparently there are a few of you hanging on down there (sorta like the Florida panther and the manatee -do they make a special license plate for y'all too? ;)). Sorry to offend you as well.
anyone else that I have offended (in this or other posts), please accept my sincere apologies also. There, a clean slate - I feel new again!:)
and to LW, awesome DBT link.
Pedaling Fool
03-21-2011, 09:28
also, to those from Florida whose toes I stepped on - welcome (back) to the south brothers! apparently there are a few of you hanging on down there (sorta like the Florida panther and the manatee -do they make a special license plate for y'all too? ;)). Sorry to offend you as well...
No offense taken, like I said Florida is the way it is because of transplants and Tennessee is next.:D
do you have bumper stickers on your prius? "free tibet" and such? just a form of expression
I have a Ford Ranger and there may be an Al-Anon bumper sticker but that's it. Stereotyping me, eh? :p
Alligator
03-21-2011, 12:13
i don't want to see a heterosexual couple walking down the middle of main street pawing all over each other in our poor, deprived, backwoods, ignant South, so why the hell would i want to see any other combination do it? other than that, all the Southerners i know wouldn't give a **** what you think you are. as for the op, you're a hypocrite. judge not, lest ye be judged. how's that for some religious mantra. i think it applies to life in general. i'm all for you keeping your bigoted yankee ass up north.
Noted. Kanga knows no Southerners who would care about about any perceived difference. Sadly I cannot make such a claim, no matter how strongly I might want to deny it or wave it away. Time has changed attitudes but among my friends, family, coworkers and acquaintences I know there are some who would think of this couple as different, even negatively. Of those that would some are from the South and some are not.
Gray Blazer
03-21-2011, 12:19
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/3/2/3/9/8/sspx0337_0003.jpg (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showimage.php?i=45827&original=1&c=newimages&cutoffdate=1)
Isla will shoot you if you laugh at him/her.
4eyedbuzzard
03-21-2011, 12:28
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/3/2/3/9/8/sspx0337_0003.jpg (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showimage.php?i=45827&original=1&c=newimages&cutoffdate=1)
Isla will shoot you if you laugh at him/her.
Looks like a 1903 Springfield there. Early model with the straight bolt handle?
Noted. Kanga knows no Southerners who would care about about any perceived difference. Sadly I cannot make such a claim, no matter how strongly I might want to deny it or wave it away. Time has changed attitudes but among my friends, family, coworkers and acquaintences I know there are some who would think of this couple as different, even negatively. Of those that would some are from the South and some are not.
gator, i know many people who would not agree with certain lifestyle choices, but none that would harass them or treat them any differently because of that. i try not to hang out with trash, unless it's hiker trash. and trash is available widespread throughout the u.s., it is not like we cultivate that attitude down here specifically.
ebandlam
03-21-2011, 13:03
The South is not a homogenized cultural mush as the popular media leads us to believe. Southerners are a whole lot more tolerant than that. BTW: The North has no more a monopoly on virtue than the south and vise versa on bigotry. There are kind people all over the place and there are bigots all over the place. So please stop the nonsense about the south!!!
Now to your original question:
The trail may not offer you the privacy you seek (my interpretation) for any "extra-curricular activities". So if you are sharing a tent, it is nobody's business - you guys are friends - which I assume you are. As for how people will treat you in while you are in town - well, behave decently - no different than for any other couple and you will find that people will treat you with kindness and respect.
Good manners and courtesy begets goodwill. :-?
Lastly, you are not entitled to any special privileges or protection than other people, but you have the right to be treated as a human being - which is what we ALL seek. If you are going to tell me that you will be targeted because of your sexual preference/predisposition - please note that morons who attack hikers on the trail have been equal-opportunity a**-h*les..
vamelungeon
03-21-2011, 13:06
Looks like a 1903 Springfield there. Early model with the straight bolt handle?
It's a Mosin Nagant. I've got 4 or 5 of them.
sheepdog
03-21-2011, 13:13
It's a Mosin Nagant. I've got 4 or 5 of them.
french WWII rifle, never fired only dropped once?
sheepdog
03-21-2011, 13:15
russian, my bad ;)
Alligator
03-21-2011, 13:35
gator, i know many people who would not agree with certain lifestyle choices, but none that would harass them or treat them any differently because of that. i try not to hang out with trash, unless it's hiker trash. and trash is available widespread throughout the u.s., it is not like we cultivate that attitude down here specifically.I agree with that. I grew up in the North (before the turn of the century kiddies) and there was widespread discrimination and bigotry.
I don't know of any places along the AT that might cause issues, I'd think by now most trail towns are used to a variety of hikers. Might want to be careful hitching, but that goes for anybody.
Can you tell a persons location by their responses?
Very possibly in the case of California.
Very possibly in the case of California.
Never possible in California. Too many species live here.
4eyedbuzzard
03-21-2011, 13:49
It's a Mosin Nagant. I've got 4 or 5 of them.Thanks. I was having trouble figuring out what it was.
WingedMonkey
03-21-2011, 13:50
also, to those from Florida whose toes I stepped on - welcome (back) to the south brothers! apparently there are a few of you hanging on down there (sorta like the Florida panther and the manatee -do they make a special license plate for y'all too? ;)). Sorry to offend you as well.
Why do they call it tourist season ? if we can't shoot them?
:sun
4eyedbuzzard
03-21-2011, 13:51
Why do they call it tourist season ? if we can't shoot them?
:sun
People ask that same question everywhere.
vamelungeon
03-21-2011, 13:53
People ask that same question everywhere.
We don't shoot'em in the South. We just feed'em unbuttered grits.
4eyedbuzzard
03-21-2011, 13:54
We don't shoot'em in the South. We just feed'em unbuttered grits.
Much obliged, but I think I'd rather be shot.
WingedMonkey
03-21-2011, 13:59
We don't shoot'em in the South. We just feed'em unbuttered grits.
OMG I had a house guest one time that put brown sugar on them. He was NOT invited back.
Never possible in California. Too many species live here.
I forgot, the South is the only place where stereotypes are valid.
Gray Blazer
03-21-2011, 14:29
4shot once again you are quite right. If you mess with garbage you end up getting filth on you, and I don't want to go back to work tomorrow smelling bad.
I heard it as ... if you go to sleep with babies, you wake up in $h!+.
Sassafras Lass
03-21-2011, 15:03
This is a tough one, so I guess all I can do is bite the bullet and ask flat out.
I'm transgendered, FtM, and planning to thru hike the AT next year with my (male) fiance. I pass as a young man, teenage or early 20s. I'm also a Yankee, and a little concerned about my safety while hiking down south. Would I be best served by posing as my fiance's little brother when we hitch into towns? I'm not worried about other hikers (we can just avoid them, and vice versa, if we make them uncomfortable) but the possibility of trouble with locals scares me a little.
Any thoughts?
No need to hide yourself, no need to be embarassed for what you are. If you're concerned about "locals" then go into town with other hikers if possible.
As far as the rest of the religious junk here, the Bible says many things, and what it says loud and clear is that Jesus died for our sins and that our most important goal in life is to be saved and live and love as He did. NOT to kill homosexuals or sexually confused people or adulterers or whatever else.
I heard it as ... if you go to sleep with babies, you wake up in $h!+.
no, no, no. it's if you lie down with dogs, you wake up in ****. or is it ticks?
Sickmont
03-21-2011, 16:21
Susan Stanton formally Steve Stanton was fired as city manager of Largo Florida in 2007 after a much debate of her being transgender. In 2009 Susan was hired by the town of Lake Worth Florida next door to me as City Manager. What one town in Florida could not stand another embraced. I suppose laws have little affect on attitude. Any time she is mentioned in the local newspaper now, it is only in relation to her job as manager.
Yeah, that was really messed up the way they treated her. Especially after 20 YEARS of service to the city. What a circus it got turned into. Made me really disgusted the way these so called civic and community "leaders" acted.
Skidsteer
03-21-2011, 16:50
No need to hide yourself, no need to be embarassed for what you are. If you're concerned about "locals" then go into town with other hikers if possible.
As far as the rest of the religious junk here, the Bible says many things, and what it says loud and clear is that Jesus died for our sins and that our most important goal in life is to be saved and live and love as He did. NOT to kill homosexuals or sexually confused people or adulterers or whatever else.
How about lawyers? Can we kill lawyers?
How about lawyers? Can we kill lawyers?
That would fall under public service. :p
sheepdog
03-21-2011, 17:03
How about lawyers? Can we kill lawyers?
you gotta share the bounty with the ATC
Skidsteer
03-21-2011, 17:41
That would fall under public service. :p
you gotta share the bounty with the ATC
That seems fair.
If you are going to tell me that you will be targeted because of your sexual preference/predisposition - please note that morons who attack hikers on the trail have been equal-opportunity a**-h*les..
In point of fact, three women who were murdered on or very near the AT were targeted because of their sexual preferences.
Think about that for a minute.
Or longer, if some additional reflection will help the significance of that sad reality sink in.
ShelterLeopard
03-21-2011, 18:55
I forgot about that Rick- you're right. Yet another example that shows that the OP had a valid question.
Skidsteer
03-21-2011, 19:07
In point of fact, three women who were murdered on or very near the AT were targeted because of their sexual preferences.
Think about that for a minute.
Or longer, if some additional reflection will help the significance of that sad reality sink in.
I forgot about that Rick- you're right. Yet another example that shows that the OP had a valid question.
To clarify further for Max&Isla; These are two separate crimes.
One crime occurred in the "South", Virginia. One crime ocurred in the "North", Pennsylvania.
Sierra Echo
03-21-2011, 19:09
In point of fact, three women who were murdered on or very near the AT were targeted because of their sexual preferences.
Think about that for a minute.
Or longer, if some additional reflection will help the significance of that sad reality sink in.
But they were targeted in a restuarant, not on the trail. The killer just happened to follow them back to their tent.
But they were targeted in a restuarant, not on the trail. The killer just happened to follow them back to their tent.
Yeah. Skyland, on the trail.
Pedaling Fool
03-22-2011, 07:26
The vast majority of skyland's patrons are not hiking the AT. Also the patrons of skyland and much of SNP at large does not give one the impression of being in the "south".
Here's a little on that incident: http://www.aldha.org/arrest02.htm,
I believe the suspect, Darrell David Rice, was later released due to insufficient forensic evidence and the murders remain unsolved (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that) If that's the case you can't really indict the "south" or "rednecks" in this one. However, whoever it is is scum and needs to be caught.
Montana Mac
03-22-2011, 08:45
Never heard of him until the posts here but here is link if you want more info
http://www.darrellrice.org/
I believe the suspect, Darrell David Rice, was later released due to insufficient forensic evidence and the murders remain unsolved (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that)
I didn't know that. I figured all killers on or along the AT had been caught and brought to justice (or at least some approximation of it).
The second couple referred to was targeted at the Birch Run shelters in PA. That killer was caught and convicted but dodged the death penalty.
Blissful
03-22-2011, 18:19
There has been no further arrests that I know of in the SNP murders. Several remained unsolved in this part of VA from many years ago - all women, btw.
In 850 miles nobody ever asked me if I was gay, straight, married, single, transgendered or what have you. How would they know? If you don't make an issue of it, you won't have any problems. If you throw it in people's face and demand acceptance of it, you'll probably have problems when some dogooder gives you a ride into town and wants to spend the whole time talking about Jesus...and there are quite a few of those people in the south. I guess what I'm saying is it will be an issue if you make it one.
Pedaling Fool
03-23-2011, 09:01
I didn't know that. I figured all killers on or along the AT had been caught and brought to justice (or at least some approximation of it).
The second couple referred to was targeted at the Birch Run shelters in PA. That killer was caught and convicted but dodged the death penalty.
What this also means is that the commonly held belief that these women were targeted because of their sexuality is false; we simply don't know why they were targeted, could be that this was a serial killer that had no idea of their sexual orientation.
P.S. Unless there's some factor I don't know about, I'm not all that up on this or any other murder on the AT.
ShelterLeopard
03-23-2011, 10:02
The two women who were actually a couple were seen having sex by the man who killed one and badly wounded the other, as far as I know.
Pedaling Fool
03-23-2011, 10:10
The two women who were actually a couple were seen having sex by the man who killed one and badly wounded the other, as far as I know.
What case are you talking about?
ShelterLeopard
03-23-2011, 10:12
The couple in PA. (Not the women in the Shennies.)
ebandlam
03-23-2011, 10:30
rickb. The point being made is that people are targeted in the south because of their sexual preference. And I disagree with that notion. The south does not have a monopoly on sociopaths. Also sociopaths don't need a reason to target one group vs. another - they happen to be a**h*les and that's that.
Recently there was a post (forgive me my memory fails me at this moment) on WB about two brothers from mid-west how were severely beaten on the trail. Why? because some idiots wanted their cheap thrills - not because they thought the brothers were gay.
But the question asked by the OP was: should he be scared in the south because of his sexual preference/disposition? and the answer is no. But I would also say exercise proper caution - just like any other hiker. Secondly, don't publicize your preferences (whether you are a Jehovah's witness, Hare Krishna follower, a Bible thumping religious person or a transgendered/homosexual) People get on the trail to get away from it all and don't want to be bothered by other people's persuasions - whatever that may be.
ShelterLeopard
03-23-2011, 10:46
I understand what you're saying ebandlam, but I don't agree. What you're talking about is people not shouting about their beliefs. The extremely religious people you are mentioning are trying to get other people to come to their point of view and be like them. (For the purpose of this argument and in this context. I know not all extremely religious people jump down your throat.) Max&Isla is just talking about being who he is. Not trying to lecture other people about anything or convert them or whatever. And it isn't fair to say that you shouldn't be open about who you are. (Again, I know that what is fair is not always what is sensible or realistic for your safety).
As I see it, the question can be whittled down to: Is a transgendered person safe on the trail? (Without the whole southern v. northern thing) Answer: Treat the trail like anywhere else. The only difference is, if there's a serious problem and you're not in a town, you have to hike to get away from it, and you can't just call the police. Be careful, I wish you lots of luck Max&Isla. Don't drink unfiltered water where moose are standing, don't eat the yellow snow, and have fun- there is only one first thru hike. Enjoy!
ebandlam
03-23-2011, 13:36
ShelterLeopard, you wrote
"Answer: Treat the trail like anywhere else. The only difference is, if there's a serious problem and you're not in a town, you have to hike to get away from it, and you can't just call the police. Be careful, I wish you lots of luck Max&Isla. Don't drink unfiltered water where moose are standing, don't eat the yellow snow, and have fun- there is only one first thru hike. Enjoy!"
Agree on that fully
as for the rest, we just have to disagree... :)
Sierra Echo
03-23-2011, 19:36
The religious lunatics are in Topeka. They go to Westboro Baptist Church.
Please pull out your map and note the fact that Topeka is along ways away from the American South.
4eyedbuzzard
03-23-2011, 20:53
The religious lunatics are in Topeka. They go to Westboro Baptist Church.
Please pull out your map and note the fact that Topeka is along ways away from the American South.Unfortunately, religious lunatics and bigots are everywhere. I lived in NJ for many years - pretty much the extreme opposite of Kansas or the south. There was a KKK guy from Forked River who used to make the newspapers and call in to radio stations all the time spouting his twisted version of Biblical BS. He pretty much hated everybody from blacks to Jews to Catholics to Atheists to gays. Given enough time, I think he'd wind up finding some reason to hate himself AND his mother. And he had quite a following of local Piney bigots. Bigotry and hate exists everywhere.
I would submit though, that the history of bigotry, slavery, Jim Crow, etc in the "old south" still colors many people's perception. So regardless of current increased levels of tolerance, that stigma will probably take a few more generations to fade away. Just the way it is.
But there is also the fact that GLBT people really are more "tolerated" in some places than others. Generally, they tend to have less problems and run into less "uninviting social situations" and such in more populous areas and where the political leanings are more liberal. That goes for the north as well as the south. Rural America simply tends to be more conservative and not as openly accepting for many reasons including religion and societal mores. Again, just the way it is. The OP knows that he isn't exactly welcomed everywhere. So he should exercise appropriate caution. Those who deny that there isn't some degree of unfriendliness from society directed toward GLBT people in many areas aren't being very honest or observant.
ShelterLeopard and others offer up the advice every hiker should follow, regardless of sex, age, gender identity, sexual preference, race or any other possible issues, based upon their own personal situation.
Treat the trail like anywhere else. The only difference is, if there's a serious problem and you're not in a town, you have to hike to get away from it, and you can't just call the police. Be careful, I wish you lots of luck Max&Isla. Don't drink unfiltered water where moose are standing, don't eat the yellow snow, and have fun- there is only one first thru hike. Enjoy!
I would submit though, that the history of bigotry, slavery, Jim Crow, etc in the "old south" still colors many people's perception. So regardless of current increased levels of tolerance, that stigma will probably take a few more generations to fade away. Just the way it is.
But there is also the fact that GLBT people really are more "tolerated" in some places than others. Generally, they tend to have less problems and run into less "uninviting social situations" and such in more populous areas and where the political leanings are more liberal. That goes for the north as well as the south.
At the end of the day the OP has an obstacle to face as do all thru-hikers. perhaps one could argue it's an additional one. How this person and the partner manage this is up to them and will be one of factors that determines whether or not they achieve their goal.Like all posts from potential thru-hikers, the advice they have received has been all over the map. No different than if they had asked for advice on whether to tent or hammock (albeit of a more political nature). To the op, hopefully you have gotten what you wanted from this thread. Like all questions from the thru hikers in planning there is no one right answer unfortunately. best wishes on your hike.
Trailbender
03-24-2011, 09:28
yea, religious people are dangerous. gimma a break.
Well, someone who believes something that could not obviously happen, and continues to believe even after it has been proven wrong by science, and many other things about the bible that are illogical, are mentally ill, at least.
Sassafras Lass
03-24-2011, 15:06
Well, someone who believes something that could not obviously happen, and continues to believe even after it has been proven wrong by science, and many other things about the bible that are illogical, are mentally ill, at least.
This is off topic, and so is my wording here.
We all believe different things, please keep your "opinion" to yourself, we are not here to discuss the validity of our beliefs. I am not mentally ill for believing in God; there is plenty of proof, intangible AND tangible, for those that seek it.
sheepdog
03-24-2011, 15:13
Well, someone who believes something that could not obviously happen, and continues to believe even after it has been proven wrong by science, and many other things about the bible that are illogical, are mentally ill, at least.
Nope, I won't take the troll bait :D:D:D
I have no idea what a billville is, but no need to be sorry.
Billville Winter Warmer-
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=68175&highlight=winter+warmer
Ps: I just thought I'd add that a true follower of Jesus won't "hate" you even if he disagrees with or misunderstands you.
My Bible reads that "God is Love" and that the one who does not love does not know God.
I'll leave it up to Him to be the ultimate Judge.
Hate pushes people away from a God who is calling them.
Pedaling Fool
03-24-2011, 15:57
Nope, I won't take the troll bait :D:D:D
I want to take the bait, but I think I already inadvertently closed one thread:( so I'll just shut the *** up:sun
ShelterLeopard
03-24-2011, 18:26
Not a thread about religion- neither about proving or disproving religion or judgement of religious people (trailbender...). This is about safety and the trail. I know that asking WBers to stay on topic is like asking a piece of wood to lay eggs, but come on...
colonel r
03-24-2011, 20:05
You are overly sensitive. Go about your business as you live your life. Being a Southerner, I know the prejudices assigned to us are way over rated.
This is not Deliverance any more. Most people have cable and internet.
R
Interesting thread despite the tangents, so I'm bumping it.
To the op, I'm not sure why it would ever come up. I hiked the whole trail and no was even slightly interested in the fact that I'm a closet heterosexual.
Oh crap, I think I just came out.
Az
Trailbender
03-26-2011, 21:35
Nope, I won't take the troll bait :D:D:D
Not troll bait, just blunt honesty.
Skidsteer
03-26-2011, 21:51
Not troll bait, just blunt honesty.
If you really want people to forsake God, you'll have to stop with the Jerry Falwell impersonation.
SassyWindsor
03-26-2011, 21:53
This is a tough one, so I guess all I can do is bite the bullet and ask flat out.
I'm transgendered, FtM, and planning to thru hike the AT next year with my (male) fiance. I pass as a young man, teenage or early 20s. I'm also a Yankee, and a little concerned about my safety while hiking down south. Would I be best served by posing as my fiance's little brother when we hitch into towns? I'm not worried about other hikers (we can just avoid them, and vice versa, if we make them uncomfortable) but the possibility of trouble with locals scares me a little.
Any thoughts?
How many pairs of panties will you be taking? :D
Skidsteer
03-26-2011, 21:54
How many pairs of panties will you be taking? :D
Ahahahahahaha!
Sierra Echo
03-26-2011, 22:14
Now that I think about it, as a God fearing Southerner, I would be concerned about my safety in the North!
will1972
03-26-2011, 22:39
There really is nothing to be worried about down here. Every family "down here" has someone that they say is a little "funny". All types of alternate lives are tolerated. And you may find that people will just accept you just as you are. The towns along the AT see visitors from all over the world. I see the rest of the country a little more biased toward southerners Than the other way around. It's no different than when your at home, you will always have some jerk someplace running off at the mouth. Welcome south and welcome to Georgia, have a nice visit and "ya'll come back again you hear"
Going out on a limb here, but I would imagine that some people on this list live in communities where a same sex couple walking hand in hand down the street would not merit a second thought, much less a comment or disapproving look from a stranger.
Also going out on a limb here, but I imagine that some people on WB live in communities where a same sex couple walking hand in hand down the street might be met with a less than welcoming reaction from some percentage of those they pass. Sad as that would be.
I will buy that this is not simply a north/south thing, but I some how think that the reaction might be different in Buford, GA than many similar sized towns here in Massachusetts. Doesn't geography play some role in all this? I would be very happy to be wrong about this. I have never been to Buford and will readily admit I don't know what the reaction would be.
If the reaction would be one of indifference, great. But isn't asking a question about such things a good way to dispel old misconceptions?
Skidsteer
03-26-2011, 23:09
I will buy that this is not simply a north/south thing, but I some how think that the reaction might be different in Buford, GA than many similar sized towns here in Massachusetts. Doesn't geography play some role in all this? I would be very happy to be wrong about this. I have never been to Buford and will readily admit I don't know what the reaction would be.
Heh. You really haven't been to Buford, GA.
People in Buford will ignore or tolerate most things so long as you don't drive 55 in the passing lane.
Heh. You really haven't been to Buford, GA.
People in Buford will ignore or tolerate most things so long as you don't drive 55 in the passing lane.
Excellent. But accept would be even better than ignore and tolerate.
Skidsteer
03-26-2011, 23:14
Excellent. But accept would be even better than ignore and tolerate.
You do realize that most people in Buford are not from Buford, right?
WingedMonkey
03-26-2011, 23:19
I will buy that this is not simply a north/south thing, but I some how think that the reaction might be different in Buford, GA than many similar sized towns here in Massachusetts.I don't think a same sex couple walking through a working class town like Adams Massachusetts will get the same reaction as a couple walking through a tourist town like Stockbridge Massachusetts even though they are both in Berkshire County.
You do realize that most people in Buford are not from Buford, right?
I have no idea. I should have said "a typical small town in GA".
I got to be honest. While I feel the love in this thread, part of me still thinks that a same sex couple walking hand in hand down public way in a "typical small town in Georgia" would likely be faced with more disapproving looks (and perhaps some comments) than were they walking down a public way in a "typical small town in Massachusetts".
I am happy to be told otherwise. By an large I think people are pretty much the same everywhere.
Skidsteer
03-26-2011, 23:44
I have no idea. I should have said "a typical small town in GA".
I got to be honest. While I feel the love in this thread, part of me still thinks that a same sex couple walking hand in hand down public way in a "typical small town in Georgia" would likely be faced with more disapproving looks (and perhaps some comments) than were they walking down a public way in a "typical small town in Massachusetts".
I am happy to be told otherwise. By an large I think people are pretty much the same everywhere.
After reading this thread I get the feeling that a same-sex couple walking hand in hand down public way in a "typical small town in Georgia" would be treated better than a person with a Southern accent in a "typical small town in Massachusetts".
ShelterLeopard
03-26-2011, 23:51
Rickb, you are right (to an extent, of course). Most of the people here saying that GLBT people won't have any problems where they live or in a certain place probably honestly think that they won't have problems. But it's because they personally aren't gay or transgendered. They have never experienced these problems, and even if they have GLBT friends in the area who they've never heard complain or haven't heard about hate crimes, it doesn't mean that kind of thing doesn't exist. A lot of gay/ transgendered people never mention or report people being awful or violent to them for many reasons.
So I know a bunch of people here are saying that their towns are very tolerant, but they don't necessarily actually know that.
(Which is true of a few northern towns as well. But it is a fact that more areas in the South disapprove of homosexuality than in some of the Northern states. Another thing is that gays seem to be more outspoken about our rights in the north than in the south, so if something happens, you are more likely to hear an outcry about it up here.)
ShelterLeopard
03-26-2011, 23:53
Skids, that isn't it. It's just how it is. Gay rights are spreading slowly. In the south, we can still be fired for who we are.
(Sorry to lump this all into the "gay rights" category. I know transgender is a different issue, but for the sake of conversation flow...)
Pickwick
03-27-2011, 01:45
Max&Isla,
Yes, you are reasonably unlikely to have any major problems with the other hikers. Hitching could be more problematic, but only because you are now seen as male. Men often have to wait longer for a ride; sometimes a lot longer.
The trail-town folks all along the trail are, for the most part, used to the full spectrum of hikers. It is tolerance in many cases, not acceptance, but for hiking purposes it works out the same. You probably won't need to hide much about who you are in most towns, if only because the topic is unlikely to come up anyway. In town the most you are likely to get, questions-wise, is 'So, you guys hiking together?' (yes) Where you guys from? (Maryland) You guys start out together or meet on the trail? (started out together). If the questions start getting too close for comfort, just quickly turn the tables and ask about their lives, like if they grew up there or if they've ever hiked any of the trail themselves, or where the best place to eat in town is. The odds of anyone in town point blank asking if you're trans or gay are very small. If that does happen I say go with your gut, but by all means have a lie ready for anyone you're getting a creepy vibe from. Every hiker should have a pocket full of lies ready for anyone giving them a creepy vibe.
The main issue for me in American southeast towns has been washrooms. I am mtf so if I'm having a bad day 'passing,' there could be an issue, and this is definitely scarier in the south; more and more of the northeast now legally allows transgender people to use the washroom of their choice, or is at least a lot more used to the idea.
When or if to tell people is always tricky, and on the trail is no different. Even if you are just trying to clear things up, or if it is just plain relevant to the conversation, or even if people ask you 'So, what's your story?' a few people will accuse you of being in their face or having an agenda or other such nonsense. These people are rare and generally idiots; I've found ignoring them usually makes them go away.
Oh, and remember to address your mail drops to the name that is on your I.D.. The post office will ask to see your I.D. before giving you your parcels.
It has been nearly 150 years since the evil people running the Confederacy were defeated. Don't let the headlines of 50 years ago scare you too much either. The American southeast (well, most of it anyway) has either moved on or is swiftly moving on, and you are likely to meet a lot of very cool, open-minded people there.
There are some bigots, and racists, and people who push their religion on you, sure, but that is true of all of the United States, not just the southeastern bit.
On the other hand, with some of laws that get passed, and some that don't, and with some of the people who get elected, and with some of the crime statistics, a lot of potential visitors are bound to be a wee bit apprehensive of some areas of the United States. This apprehension is understandable, but the odds are reasonably good that none of it will affect your hike.
Good luck, guys!
Pickwick
Thank you for your post. I think you are pretty much spot on with your observations and advice.
I am a Damn Yankee and have been for over 34 years. I was raised in Union County New Jersey and now I am one of those trail town locals from Union County Georgia. I believed in God in Union County New Jersey (confirmed at the First Congregational Church in Westfield, NJ) and continue to do so. And, I can clearly state that there is not much of a difference between folks from the North and folks from the South. The biggest difference I have seen (my direct observation) is that Southern folk are generally more friendly and helpful to strangers than Northern folk. But I can also say the same for rural folk vs. city folk.
I know this thread began with the intent to gain information for a potential transgender hiker, but the questions were stereotypically framed making this thread highly offensive to me and the folks I call my friends.
I do appreciate Max&Isla recognizing this in Post #7. He writes of a problem he had up north just last week.
The bottom line is that this should never have been debated as a North / South issue. Doing so has only shown the stereotyping towards southerners from our northern friends, and the bigotry that exists against Christians.
Here is how I see it from where I sit, which is 200 yds from the trail in Georgia.
I do not expect Max&Isla to face any serious safety problems. Regardless of North or South what they will find up and down the trail is plenty of tolerance, and with some people just avoidance. But if they are looking for universal acceptance that is not going to happen.
Max&Isla will get all the tolerance in the world from me. I will welcome him in my home for a meal, beer, and to spend the night if he chooses. I will help him with any supply, or health needs he may have. And I will welcome our conversation on any topic, even transgender if he chooses. In essence, I will treat him just like any other hiker on the trail. And if he finds himself in our little town of Suches, or any of our trail heads in need, knowing my neighbors as I do, he will find the same caring treatment.
But with said, I will admit it. He will not get acceptance from me. I do not understand what a lot of people choose and do. I have a moral compass that guides me in right and wrong, good and bad, and all points in between regardless of my religion. So, I guess Penguins Post #2 is directed at me. And yes, that post is highly offensive to me. Being the dropped the F bomb, called a "hater", an "ignorant fool" and a "redneck" for just not understanding seems a bit harsh for me, and IMO inappropriate for this forum. There have been several posts deleted in this thread as being offensive. Apparently there is a double standard when it comes to my being able to understand the transgender lifestyle.
But then again, I doubt I am going to get universal acceptance from those posters that have bashed my religious beliefs either, nor any tolerance from Trailbender who writes in Post #156 I am "mentally ill, at the least" for believing in God.
As Pickwick pointed out, obviously Max&Isla will have to keep up a keen sense for that creepy vibe on the trail and in towns. But that is true for all hikers. There are trouble makers up and down the trail, but again, no geographic lines separate these idiots. And I strongly doubt these trouble makers will be real Christians. Might Max&Isla have to listen to harsh words from some wacko misdirected Christian, maybe. But if he can't handle that then he is in for a tough time whether hiking the trail or staying home in MD.
I hope Max&Isla have found some helpful information from their thread. And I hope he does follow through with his hike. I would love to see him and his partner on the trail in the Grassy Gap area would love to have him stop at my home for a nice meal, beverage, and trail talk.
I now hope that the moderator will delete all the offensive stereotypical and bigoted posts in this thread.
I do not want to derail this already derailed thread any further so if anyone feels they need to continue to bash me please do so by PM. I will be happy to further the off topic part of the conversation. But it could be awhile before I respond as I am heading out on the trail for a walk.
Max&Isla, you are being a hater towards fine upstanding southern people. You can keep your butt in Maryland for all I care!!!!!
Now who's being the hater??? This was totally uncalled for. Get a life.
WingedMonkey
03-27-2011, 11:26
So he gets your support in your home, but not at the ballet box? Sounds two faced to me. You are right there is no difference from north to south.
Rooster, I have found the most discriminating people in Ga to be transplants and half backs. Can you explain THAT? Perhaps northeners arent as accepting as people would like to think.
Really? you're bigotry is showing.......
I've been to Georgia. People post the 10 commandments on signs in their yards. They put them up on signs on the freeway. It's the only southern state (besides Florida) I've ever been to. I can see being a little wary of the south after visiting.
They do it in TN too.
Lone Wolf
03-27-2011, 11:35
They do it in TN too.
and right here in Damascus, VA
I have NEVER seen the 10 commandments posted on signs in yards or on freeways. I have no idea where you went, but it could have been only been better after you left.
Geez, you really are full of hate aren't you.. You really need to grow up and get off the hate wagon. You're hatred of northerners and ignorance of northerners is unbelievable!!! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!! WOW
ShelterLeopard
03-27-2011, 11:46
There are some very angry people here, Lilred.
4eyedbuzzard
03-27-2011, 11:49
I've been to Georgia. People post the 10 commandments on signs in their yards. They put them up on signs on the freeway. It's the only southern state (besides Florida) I've ever been to. I can see being a little wary of the south after visiting.
They do it in TN too.
and right here in Damascus, VA
I'm just thankful people don't put up cheesy plastic tablets spelling out all 613 mitzvot (commandments). Especially in Hebrew. That might tend to be a safety issue if people started trying to read them all while driving past their lawns, and trying to figure out if Hebrew scripture was some religious thing or a Chinese restaurant menu.
I think I need to run this by Matty. He'll understand.
vamelungeon
03-27-2011, 12:03
I bet I've taken more crap in non-Southern states over my heavy southern Appalachian accent than the OP will take in the South. Trust me, there are jerks everywhere and the South doesn't have any more than anywhere else, and that's what we are talking about- jerks. I met some real a-holes when I lived in California, and the absolutely most prejudiced person I've ever met was from Chicago.
There are some very angry people here, Lilred.
Which only goes to prove that the op does have a valid question. I'm a northerner, been living in the south since 1980 and a born again christian. Is there a difference between the north and south when it comes to tolerance. You bet there is. Is it changing over time? You bet it is. Just because an incident happens in the north, doesn't mean it happened by a northerner. And just because an incident happens in the south, doesn't mean it happened by a southerner. Ten years ago, I had a black southern friend married to a white woman. Looking for a house to buy. I mentioned my town has great schools as he had a 4 year old. He said I was nuts and that he wanted to live. And THAT came from a southerner about his southern state. He lived in Nashville, a city loaded with northerners and he refused to live in a rural town only 15 minutes away.
ok Sierra Echo, let your hatred of my 'northern bigotry' out, since I have absolutely no experience with the south...........:rolleyes:
4eyedbuzzard
03-27-2011, 12:20
I bet I've taken more crap in non-Southern states over my heavy southern Appalachian accent than the OP will take in the South. Trust me, there are jerks everywhere and the South doesn't have any more than anywhere else, and that's what we are talking about- jerks. I met some real a-holes when I lived in California, and the absolutely most prejudiced person I've ever met was from Chicago.
If you didn't talk so funny people might take you more seriously. :rolleyes: ;) :D
"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible ...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. ....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out." - Rodney King
ShelterLeopard
03-27-2011, 12:25
Indeed it's a valid question. I just wish this hadn't gone into such an in depth north v. south thing.
ShelterLeopard
03-27-2011, 12:27
I just realized, I'm now one of the culprits in doing a thread to death- I read over a few of the older posts, and everyone is saying the same thing over and over (myself included). I hang my head in shame!
{insert Owl's photo of beating a dead horse}
Lone Wolf
03-27-2011, 12:46
I'm transgendered, FtM, and planning to thru hike the AT next year with my (male) fiance. I pass as a young man, teenage or early 20s. I'm also a Yankee, and a little concerned about my safety while hiking down south. Would I be best served by posing as my fiance's little brother when we hitch into towns?
don't pose as anything. be yourself. it's a non-issue. i'm a yankee living in a southern trail town where gays, lesbians, hippies, jesus freaks, rednecks, jews and other types reside. we all get along and nobody gets beat up or harrassed. just go walkin' and quit worryin'. never seen so much crap on a thread
I'm always baffled by the amount of confederate flags I see here in Ohio. Anybody that has even an inkling about history knows Ohio wasn't exactly the hotbed of the Confederacy. And I don't think they fly their rebel flags in support of State's rights. Just sayin, there are ignorant people everywhere.
we all get along and nobody gets beat up or harrassed.
A puzzling comment, considering Lone Wolf claims to carry a firearm on the trail with him.
I'm always baffled by the amount of confederate flags I see here in Ohio. Anybody that has even an inkling about history knows Ohio wasn't exactly the hotbed of the Confederacy. And I don't think they fly their rebel flags in support of State's rights. Just sayin, there are ignorant people everywhere.
There's always a good chance that they are Southerners living in Ohio......
Lone Wolf
03-27-2011, 13:09
A puzzling comment, considering Lone Wolf claims to carry a firearm on the trail with him.
i never said i carry on the trail. i have a permit though. if i carried it would be to blow away someone trying to do harm to me or others. gary hilton comes to mind. quit trollin' and changin'
the subject
There's always a good chance that they are Southerners living in Ohio......
Maybe a few, but for the most part, they're just ignorant people with no understanding of history, or sensitivity as to how others might feel about it.
Many Walks
03-27-2011, 13:14
This is a tough one, so I guess all I can do is bite the bullet and ask flat out.
I'm transgendered, FtM, and planning to thru hike the AT next year with my (male) fiance. I pass as a young man, teenage or early 20s. I'm also a Yankee, and a little concerned about my safety while hiking down south. Would I be best served by posing as my fiance's little brother when we hitch into towns? I'm not worried about other hikers (we can just avoid them, and vice versa, if we make them uncomfortable) but the possibility of trouble with locals scares me a little.
Any thoughts?
Well, this thread certainly brought out a lot of strong feelings all over the map...literally. Personally, we met great people all over the trail and believe if you treat people with respect you'll get that in return.
Regarding your question, I think the bottom line is so many guys have hiked together on the trail no one will give it a second thought. The only people who need to know your real names are the people doing a financial transaction with plastic and they'll be too busy getting that done to care much about anything else. I imagine only one of you will be paying for things at any given stop anyway. If you check into a hotel one of you can do that while the other watches the gear outside.
You'll be just two more tired, dirty, stinky, hungry, hiking guys hauling your butts and gear up the trail in a stream of thousands. Trail names are generally the only thing anyone goes by and as others have mentioned, if the conversation gets too personal just change the subject and move on. Don't give anyone reason in public to question anything and you'll be fine. People are unique everywhere and as you can see, everyone thinks their place is superior to the rest.
No matter the location, tend to what you need to do to keep your hike going, don't accept delivery if someone tries to insert themselves too far into your business and most importantly enjoy your hike!
Maybe a few, but for the most part, they're just ignorant people with no understanding of history, or sensitivity as to how others might feel about it.
so you know them personally and know they're not from the south????
Makes absolutely no sense for a northerner to wave a rebel flag.
Makes perfect sense that a southern redneck would want to wave one in the face of northerners.
And I have experienced much more hate and bigotry towards me being a northerner in the south than I ever would have expected.
People like Sierra Echo are a perfect example of the hatred of northerners who are in the south.
so you know them personally and know they're not from the south????
Makes absolutely no sense for a northerner to wave a rebel flag.
Yes, I know some of them personally, but as a general rule, I don't associate with people who display rebel flags here in Ohio. I worked with two women, one who had a giant rebel flag tatooed on her back (and trust me the artist had a lot of canvas to work with), the other can be seen everyday in warm weather wearing rebel flag flip flops, and her favorite t-shirt has a flag on it and reads, " don't apologize if it wasn't wrong". Neither of which have ever lived outside of Ohio. Don't even get me started on the idiot up the street with a rebel flag license plate, but tinted windows on his car so you can't see who he is.
But, you're right, this makes as much sense to me as someone from Georgia painting a mural of General Sherman on their barn. Just baffling.
Oh, and I almost forgot the big one. I went to a rural high school, where on any given day you could see a student wearing a t-shirt with a rebel flag on it. The name of my school was Sheridan High School, due to it's location being the hometown of General Philip Sheridan. Lancaster, the birth place of William Tecumseh Sherman is only twenty minutes away. Like I said, ignorance is abundant no matter where you are.
4eyedbuzzard
03-27-2011, 13:54
As a former Dayton resident, we didn't call it planet OH 10 for nothing.
Ohio, like anywhere else, has no shortage of idiots and bigots.
One thing's for sure though. All the Canadian WB'ers reading this thread are thinking, "Damn, them southern boys sure do fight a lot amongst themselves."
Northern Lights
03-27-2011, 13:59
As a former Dayton resident, we didn't call it planet OH 10 for nothing.
Ohio, like anywhere else, has no shortage of idiots and bigots.
One thing's for sure though. All the Canadian WB'ers reading this thread are thinking, "Damn, them southern boys sure do fight a lot amongst themselves."
You read my mind, I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread but I do, and leave in disbelief.
Sure hope there isn't a lot of traffic on the trail in September. Would hate to think how a 'true' Northerner may be thought of. :(
One thing's for sure though. All the Canadian WB'ers reading this thread are thinking, "Damn, them southern boys sure do fight a lot amongst themselves."
Ha Ha, you're probably right. Just let the record show, wer'e not all idiots.
sheepdog
03-27-2011, 15:25
I've been to Georgia. People post the 10 commandments on signs in their yards. They put them up on signs on the freeway. It's the only southern state (besides Florida) I've ever been to. I can see being a little wary of the south after visiting.
Got something against:
not stealing
not murdering
not cheating
not being envious
loving God
etc...?
Too bad this discussion got so focused on the North/South thing. The real shame is that we live in an age where these kinds of questions need be asked at all.
Here is the text of the letter written to the judge in the Steven Roy Carr trial. She lived near the AT in Pennsylvania, so don't worry-- I am not bashing the South.
I wonder how many of this woman's neighbor's would have recognized her for who she really is? I wonder how many of us have neighbors who think this way? No matter where we live.
Dear Judge Spicer,
Reading the morning paper, [I Saw] a recap of the event involving Stephen Roy Carr. Two things have been going through my mind and the minds of many Christians I’ve talked with. 1st, Our Lord destroyed and entire city because of homosexuality and tells us in Roman Chapter 1 how he feels about this sin. Innocent people are dying of AIDS because this sin has been allowed. 2nd, Why were[n’t] indecent charges brought against Claudia Brenner? Are people allowed to run through the woods naked and indulge in a sin so terrible that even God turns on [it]? This country was founded on the Bible but we are all failing God by not keeping his laws. Would you have wanted your wife or children to have witnessed two women having sex? Any parent would feel like destroying such horrible people. Think about it. Has this man really committed such a terrible crime? Our lord did just what he did. I do not believe in murder but I think it’s time America wakes up and does something about homosexuals. The world is coming to a fast end just because people have let sin rule the laws. Mr. Carr was at church shortly before he eliminated sin. What was taught in that sermon? Maybe he felt he was doing just what the lord did. When the Bible is used for oaths next time in court, stop and think. “Are the words contained therein really obeyed”?
Thank you for being a judge, I know it isn’t easy but I know you do your best for all America.
--A woman form Fayetterville, PA a town just west of Michaux State Forest. Name withheld.
sheepdog
03-27-2011, 15:31
Not troll bait, just blunt honesty.
or perhaps ignorance
4eyedbuzzard
03-27-2011, 15:37
Got something against:
not stealing
not murdering
not cheating
not being envious
loving God
etc...?
Most people probably don't have anything against the commandments themselves or their application to a civil society. In fact, most are probably all for what they represent. I do think the ostentatious display by people in order to attract attention and impress others does bother many however - even many very religious folks.
But I also believe putting such stuff on one's lawn is considered protected speech under the 1st amendment, so it's okay with this atheist. Personally, I don't think people's religion is anybody's business but their own, but apparently some feel the need to make a public spectacle of it.
Whatever
Excellent. But accept would be even better than ignore and tolerate.
Why? It seems like ignore and tolerate would be the most that anyone secure in themselves would want. Why is acceptance so important?
A lot of people don't accept me, and I just ignore and tolerate them.:cool:
Az
Personally, I don't think people's religion is anybody's business but their own, but apparently some feel the need to make a public spectacle of it.
Whatever
I agree. But what about when it's someone's sexuality that's become a public spectacle. Is that ok?
Az
4eyedbuzzard
03-27-2011, 16:33
I agree. But what about when it's someone's sexuality that's become a public spectacle. Is that ok?
Az
Personally, I find many of the gay pride parades and such pretty distasteful because the behavior of the participants is pretty crude in my opinion. But I also don't have much respect for anti-gay demonstrators either, for much the same reason. One group tends to bare its body in a crude fashion, the other its soul in a similar crude fashion.
I don't think the analogy applies to the OP here: He's anonymous for all intent and purpose and not making a statement. Rather, he's asking a question of the largest available hiking community on an issue he thinks may be a safety concern.
Maybe the question is unwarranted in the minds of some, and some may even think the OP is trolling - but I think enough hikers here thought it was legitimate enough to answer without a lot of name calling.
Just my honest opinion.
Got something against:
not stealing
not murdering
not cheating
not being envious
loving God
etc...?
Please don't forget keeping the Sabbath holy.
ShelterLeopard
03-27-2011, 16:55
4eyedbuzzard- Just to let you know, to judge all gays by what you see in a gay pride parade is the same as judging people by what you see in a mardi gras parade/ festival. That isn't really who we are- that is a combination of a small number of the most flamboyant/ in your face gays, and decades of repression being let loose in one day. Come on.
Pedaling Fool
03-27-2011, 16:58
4eyedbuzzard- Just to let you know, to judge all gays by what you see in a gay pride parade is the same as judging people by what you see in a mardi gras parade/ festival. That isn't really who we are- that is a combination of a small number of the most flamboyant/ in your face gays, and decades of repression being let loose in one day. Come on.
He wasn't judging all gays in that light; re-read his posts, he's pretty fair -- or should I say he's being, Fair and Balanced. :D
ShelterLeopard
03-27-2011, 16:59
Rick, you're right. Tolerance is better than just ignoring someone. To ignore someone (in the fashion most people are describing) is to disapprove of and not tolerate them in a nearly passive aggressive manner.
This thread is actually making me upset- the amount of intolerance and lack of understanding just here, on this thread, is baffling. People here are acting like children, covering their ears with their hands and just repeating exactly what they have already said.
4eyedbuzzard
03-27-2011, 17:10
4eyedbuzzard- Just to let you know, to judge all gays by what you see in a gay pride parade is the same as judging people by what you see in a mardi gras parade/ festival. That isn't really who we are- that is a combination of a small number of the most flamboyant/ in your face gays, and decades of repression being let loose in one day. Come on.
I don't judge the GLBT community by what I see in gay pride parades, nor did I say I did. I said that I don't like the public displays. Lots of GLBT folks don't like them either. I don't judge all southerners by the example set by the Georgia legislature either, nor religious folks by the few who find it necessary to offer unwanted, unsolicited "witnessing" at every opportunity.
4eyedbuzzard
03-27-2011, 17:13
He wasn't judging all gays in that light; re-read his posts, he's pretty fair -- or should I say he's being, Fair and Balanced. :D
Fair and Balanced :eek: That is a really low blow! And the only things I watch on Fox are House, Bones, The Simpsons - and Family Guy of course.
WingedMonkey
03-27-2011, 17:16
pretty distasteful because the behavior of the participants is pretty crude in my opinion. LOL, I thought you were describing the Hiker Parade in Damascus and all the drag.
:banana
Pedaling Fool
03-27-2011, 17:20
... and Family Guy of course.
Family Guy:( This is the only episode I've seen of family guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4ABTOTW7aY)
:eek::D
harryfred
03-27-2011, 17:22
WB is for AT enthusiast, That includes weekend warriors as myself. Not just thru hikers.
If any problems arise it won't be from hikers, but from locals.
Having said that, I would worry more about some liquored up red neck, than I would about someone who goes to church.
It's the liquored up rednecks that go to church that are really scary:eek::D
Here's the scary part - I understand (my bosses are Orthodox Jews) and I have been studying the so-called "Old" testament for several years after realizing (finally - duh!) that My belief system is very deeply rooted in Theirs.
If you (meaning a Christian) have enemies, and you believe Jesus (not just believe in him), you will love them.
That's a hard pill to swallow whenever we have to deal with people who don't like us.
Good post, 4E'd B. :)
I'm just thankful people don't put up cheesy plastic tablets spelling out all 613 mitzvot (commandments). Especially in Hebrew. That might tend to be a safety issue if people started trying to read them all while driving past their lawns, and trying to figure out if Hebrew scripture was some religious thing or a Chinese restaurant menu.
I think I need to run this by Matty. He'll understand.
Skidsteer
03-27-2011, 17:27
LOL, I thought you were describing the Hiker Parade in Damascus and all the drag.
:banana
That's actually a good point.
Let's face it. Backpackers are sort of goofy to begin with.
4eyedbuzzard
03-27-2011, 17:27
It's the liquored up rednecks that go to church that are really scary:eek::D
Yeah, 'cause usually they're the preacher. :banana :banana :banana
That's actually a good point.
Let's face it. Backpackers are sort of goofy to begin with.
Hey, I resemble that remark!
harryfred
03-27-2011, 17:43
Now that I think about it, as a God fearing Southerner, I would be concerned about my safety in the North!
As I keep reading through this I think I would be more concerned about central PA than VA.
harryfred
03-27-2011, 17:48
Excellent. But accept would be even better than ignore and tolerate.
Ignore and tolerate is the best your gonna get and I'm considered pretty liberal.
sheepdog
03-27-2011, 17:58
Most people probably don't have anything against the commandments themselves or their application to a civil society. In fact, most are probably all for what they represent. I do think the ostentatious display by people in order to attract attention and impress others does bother many however - even many very religious folks.
But I also believe putting such stuff on one's lawn is considered protected speech under the 1st amendment, so it's okay with this atheist. Personally, I don't think people's religion is anybody's business but their own, but apparently some feel the need to make a public spectacle of it.
Whatever
In the context of this thread; I fail to see how someone posting the 10 commandments in their yard makes them a scary individual. Some folks are just born scared I guess.
harryfred
03-27-2011, 18:02
don't pose as anything. be yourself. it's a non-issue. i'm a yankee living in a southern trail town where gays, lesbians, hippies, jesus freaks, rednecks, jews and other types reside. we all get along and nobody gets beat up or harrassed. just go walkin' and quit worryin'. never seen so much crap on a thread
That sounds like my family.
You will be harrassed more on your choice of a tent than what you chose to do in it.:D
sheepdog
03-27-2011, 18:03
don't pose as anything. be yourself. it's a non-issue. i'm a yankee living in a southern trail town where gays, lesbians, hippies, jesus freaks, rednecks, jews and other types reside. we all get along and nobody gets beat up or harrassed. just go walkin' and quit worryin'. never seen so much crap on a thread
that says it all!!
That's actually a good point.
Let's face it. Backpackers are sort of goofy to begin with.
:jump:bse
Az
harryfred
03-27-2011, 18:26
Just to stoke the fire a little considering my cheesy friend is no longer here.
Many biblical scholars (the real ones) believe Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed not because they practiced homosexuality, but because of their attitude toward strangers.
sheepdog
03-27-2011, 18:43
Just to stoke the fire a little considering my cheesy friend is no longer here.
Many biblical scholars (the real ones) believe Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed not because they practiced homosexuality, but because of their attitude toward strangers.
"The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous"
It was many things.
Most people probably don't have anything against the commandments themselves or their application to a civil society. In fact, most are probably all for what they represent. I do think the ostentatious display by people in order to attract attention and impress others does bother many however - even many very religious folks.
But I also believe putting such stuff on one's lawn is considered protected speech under the 1st amendment, so it's okay with this atheist. Personally, I don't think people's religion is anybody's business but their own, but apparently some feel the need to make a public spectacle of it.
Whatever
I know what you mean 4eyed. Jesus, after all, did say that if you're going to pray, go in your closet and do it. (paraphrasing)........ Wish more people would do what He said.
I know what you mean 4eyed. Jesus, after all, did say that if you're going to pray, go in your closet and do it. (paraphrasing)........ Wish more people would do what He said.
you scream for tolerance and then yet prove that you have none yourself. why should i have to go into a closet to pray to God? because you're offended by it? tough ****. put your big girl pants on, get over it, and move on.
Northern Lights
03-27-2011, 19:05
you scream for tolerance and then yet prove that you have none yourself. why should i have to go into a closet to pray to God? because you're offended by it? tough ****. put your big girl pants on, get over it, and move on.
I may be wrong, but I think it is in refernce to not making a show of believing in God.
and that is exactly what i'm talking about...
you scream for tolerance and then yet prove that you have none yourself. why should i have to go into a closet to pray to God? because you're offended by it? tough ****. put your big girl pants on, get over it, and move on.
Ummm Kanga, that's what Jesus said, not me. Look it up. It's in your bible.
Northern Lights
03-27-2011, 19:08
Just for further clarity
However, Christ is also dealing with a particular practice of the Pharisees. They made a big show of praying so that everyone would know just how spiritual they were. They were proud and ostentatious in their prayers so that others would see them. That is, they took what should have been their private prayer life and made a public show of it so that others would be amazed at their spirituality. This is akin today to those who continually brag on how much time they spend in prayer. Christ was teaching us that our personal prayer life is not to be displayed in public. He was not teaching that there was never an occasion for public prayer.
sheepdog
03-27-2011, 19:10
Just for further clarity
However, Christ is also dealing with a particular practice of the Pharisees. They made a big show of praying so that everyone would know just how spiritual they were. They were proud and ostentatious in their prayers so that others would see them. That is, they took what should have been their private prayer life and made a public show of it so that others would be amazed at their spirituality. This is akin today to those who continually brag on how much time they spend in prayer. Christ was teaching us that our personal prayer life is not to be displayed in public. He was not teaching that there was never an occasion for public prayer.exce
exactly............:sun
I may be wrong, but I think it is in refernce to not making a show of believing in God.
you're absolutely right. And that's what one is doing when they display stuff on their bumper or in their yard. They are making a show of it. "oh, look at me, I'm a christian, see???" It does absolutely nothing to help someone.
I may be wrong, but I think it is in refernce to not making a show of believing in God.
Actually, it's about not showing off how much more spiritual you are than others who claim to believe in God (almost the same). It isn't to protect non-believers from your worship, it's to prove that the worship is genuine and devoid of ego. Jesus said it to Jewish people about other Jewish people.
sheepdog
03-27-2011, 19:14
you're absolutely right. And that's what one is doing when they display stuff on their bumper or in their yard. They are making a show of it. "oh, look at me, I'm a christian, see???" It does absolutely nothing to help someone.
Maybe not. The courts are turning "freedom of religion" to "freedom from religion." No longer are the founding principles of our laws displayed in courts and schools. Some people believe that these documents should be seen and read. So they are posting them where it is legal to post them. Doesn't make them self righteous or weird.
Northern Lights
03-27-2011, 19:15
Actually, it's about not showing off how much more spiritual you are than others who claim to believe in God (almost the same). It isn't to protect non-believers from your worship, it's to prove that the worship is genuine and devoid of ego. Jesus said it to Jewish people about other Jewish people.
That's what I meant, I just didn't say it as well as you :D Even a wayward Catholic remembers a thing or two she read in the bible. ;)
Just a thought: Put the shoe on the other foot - should Christians be able to prevent Satanists from displaying a pentagram on their front lawn if they want to?
Tolerance goes both ways (or should).
That's what I meant, I just didn't say it as well as you :D Even a wayward Catholic remembers a thing or two she read in the bible. ;)
Thank you. :)
harryfred
03-27-2011, 19:39
"The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous"
It was many things.
My point made:clap
Skidsteer
03-27-2011, 19:43
Tolerance goes both ways (or should).
Precisely.
Conversely, most of us outgrow demanding acceptance around the time we file our first tax return.