View Full Version : Are my fears rational??
For the past two years or so, I’ve gotten the “bug”. For some strange reason, I find myself completely obsessed with the idea of thruhiking the AT. I’ve been reading everything I can about it, and find myself thinking about it every day. I suppose that in this forum, my obsession is pretty normal, but here’s where I deviate:
I have this recurring fear of the dangers of rattlesnakes on the trail. They blend into their surroundings, and could be lying almost anywhere on a warm day. They’re difficult to see if you’re watching, and nearly impossible to see if it’s getting dark or you’re not paying attention.
Has anyone here ever stepped on one, or been bitten by one? What happens if you are bitten and you’re several days from town? Is my fear totally irrational?
A few unstable people, I can deal with. Territorial bears and myopic moose give me no anxiety. Snakes, for some reason though, freak me out.
I made the mistake of googling snakebites. The pictures and stories of how ‘so and so nearly lost his leg’ etc.. are not good for a snake-a-phobic (is that a word?) like me.
brian039
03-23-2011, 17:37
I walked the entire state of PA with headphones on listening to music. Don't do what I did. I only saw one rattlesnake the entire hike and it was in SNP. There's no telling how many I almost stepped on and didn't even know it. I don't think your fears are irrational and I don't know what to tell you except be careful where you step and hope you hear them rattle before you step on them.
Tenderheart
03-23-2011, 17:47
I saw one rattlesnake during my thru hike, and I wouldn't have seen it if someone hadn't asked me to identify it. It was lying in a pit behind a shelter in PA. Snakes have no interest in biting anything that they can't eat. Try not to worry about them. There is really no danger.
litefoot 2000
johnnybgood
03-23-2011, 17:48
How about Copperheads ? I've seen many more of them hiking than Rattlesnakes.
Truth be told , the Rattlesnake will warn you first with his rattle . The Copperhead will not.
True story : my wife was bitten by a Copperhead in our local county park in mid-afternoon on a well paved path. Talk about blending in with its' surrounding. Dead leafs and a copper colored snake...
Cookerhiker
03-23-2011, 17:48
I've section hiked the AT including vast swaths of snake country in snake season - e.g. Eastern PA in late May, early June, early September; Hot Springs to Damascus in early May; Shenandoah NP in May. Plus, I've hiked Shenandoah NP - AT and other trails - for nearly 40 years and maintained an AT section for 5. I've never seen a rattlesnake on the AT (2 copperheads) but I know they're out there. I also realize my experience is not shared by others who have seen them more frequently.
Because the AT is well-maintained and reasonably wide, you at least have a better line of sight than on many other trails. Just keep your eyes and ears alert.
I suspect rattlers are rarer now than the early days of the AT; Gene Espy reported numerous encounters on his 1951 thruhike.
And FWIW, the rattlers I've seen in Eastern hiking were on trails much more remote and less-used than the AT. I don't think that's a coincidence.
I did 450 miles on the Arizona trail blasting music the whole time. Didn't see one snake. I think I would have heard the ones that choose to rattle though. If your alone and moving fast though, they wont rattle till your walking right by them. On PCT some evenings I saw so many snakes, I would lose the tunes, but supposedly most of the ones old enough to rattle won't release venom into a person. They save this for their food. It takes a while for a snake to make venom, and they supposedly don't like to waste it. The young ones don't have rattles, and will lay motionless in the trail, making them very difficult to spot. These ones allegedly always release venom upon biting, making them scary.
Personally I am a lot more worried about mosquitos, heat rash, and receiving doses of radiation at the airport from the scanner.
I almost stepped on a copperhead while hiking. It was curled up sleeping right in the middle of the trail and I was cruisin. Saw it just as my foot was coming down on it. You want to talk about a sudden retreat!!! I can't imagine the contortions my body went through to avoid that step!!
flemdawg1
03-23-2011, 18:02
The voices in my head tell me that all ya'll are out to get me, I'm pretty sure their right.
wrongway_08
03-23-2011, 18:16
I tried to find them, only cought 2 rattlers and 1 copper head. You have to try and find these suckers! The ones that I heard of just sun'n left everyone alone and no they won't come after you.
Many Walks
03-23-2011, 18:16
We saw one fat 6' rattlesnake that slowly made his way off the trail as we approached. In GA a copperhead was laying in the dead leaves I walked through to hang a clothesline. Didn't see him as he blended in so well. All I heard was a hiss, felt a hard bite on my Croc as I lifted my foot and he took off under a bush. No warning from a Copperhead of you get too close. In PA I was rock hopping watching for rattlers on top of the rocks and stepped right over a Copperhead without seeing it laying in the dead leaves. My wife walks between the rocks and at the very last minute a coiled pattern registered in her mind and stopped her step just inches away from him with a quick back up and a scream. He had his head raised and was poised for a strike. Saw lots of rat snakes and black snakes with no issues. The wife chased a water moccasin out of a mosquito hole at Pine Swamp where she was planning to get water. Snakes are out there, but mostly you see them in time.
swjohnsey
03-23-2011, 18:16
You never can find a snake when you want one.
As to what to do if you do get bitten by a rattler? Assuming the bite was somewhere on my leg, I'd put a tournaquet on the leg to slow the spread of venom through my system, stay standing, try to slow down my heartrate with deep slow breathing, press 911 on my SPOT to scramble a Rescue team, call 911 on my cell phone if I had a signal, ask any hiker that came by to stay with me until help arrived. But that's me. Recommend you research rattlesnake bite treatment from authoritative sources and come up with your own plan of action.
Guaranteed you will see a lot of snakes out there. But since you're usually watching where you're going to put your feet next, you do see them and have enough time to step around or wait until they move. Only one time when my mind and eyes were wandering did I almost step on a black (nonpoisonous) snake. Woke up everyone in the neighborhood with my scream and I never saw a snake move so fast to get away from me. For the next hour or two my wild imagination thought every black twig was a snake. Only saw one rattlesnake on my hike and it was way too close, about 4' to my side and rattling. I just kept walking but had to sit down about 150' up the trail because I was shaking so badly from the adrenaline. Was I afraid of snakes before my hike? Absolutely. And spiders and bears and mice and moose and coyotes and storms and...and...and. Am I still afraid of all these things? No. Confronting these fears was one of the best things about doing this hike because I came down Katahdin pretty fearless compared to how I was at Springer.
Not rational. They are way down the list of dangerous things encountered on the trail. If you want to worry about something pick a danger that is near the top of the list. With death at the top of the list:
#1 Stroke or heart attack
#2 Freezing to death
#3 Being murdered
#4 Falling from a cliff
#5 Suicide
#6 Being hit by a car
#7 Tree or limb falling on you
#8 Falling down
#9 Lyme desease
#10 Stove/fire accidents
The snake thing you have is not a rational thing at all, it's a fear you can overcome. For some people it's very difficult. Professional help does work.
It's of no comfort that no person was ever killed by a snake in the history of the trail. One thing you can do to avoid seeing rattlesnakes is don't hike from late May to late July.(hike New England then). SOBO's will see far fewer rattlesnakes.
WingedMonkey
03-23-2011, 18:39
I'd put a tournaquet on the leg to slow the spread of venom through my systemOld school and no longer recommended, does more harm and can lead to gangrene.
Cutting and "sucking" out the poison also not recommended.
bigcranky
03-23-2011, 18:40
Understandable, but not rational. Lots of other things to worry about first, but nothing that will stop you from hiking.
Montana Mac
03-23-2011, 18:56
Saw two in 09 while on my thru hike attepmt. One in WVA and the other in NY
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=273358
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=276401
Old school and no longer recommended, does more harm and can lead to gangrene.
Taken from current first aid handbook:
"...[One can] leave them in place for up to two hours, without any apparent adverse effects on the limb. Longer tourniquet times are certainly possible without injury, but the longer the tourniquet is left in place, the more likely it is that hypoxic muscle injury will occur. After 10 hours, there is an increasing likelihood that the tissue below the tourniquet will not survive and will need to be amputated.
For that reason, it is important to understand that application of a tourniquet is undertaken only for life-saving reasons, in which the possible loss of a limb is minor in comparison to the alternative (loss of life)."
Last summer I saw to rattlesnakes in a two mile radius in New York about 2 miles before Bear Mountain. The rattle was loud enough for us to hear. They were just making their way across the trail. We just let them finish crossing and then carried on.
vamelungeon
03-23-2011, 19:05
Given the chance, most snakes will get out of your way. They aren't interested in you unless you bother them. I've heard that most people who get bitten are trying to kill a snake or catch it, both of which the snake will naturally object to.
Like a lot of people on this site, I've spent a lifetime outdoors at various pursuits and while I've seen snakes they generally hide from us. Just watch where you step and don't tiptoe on the trail- they're deaf but they can feel your footsteps.
I worry more about ticks and mosquitoes that carry diseases.
takethisbread
03-23-2011, 19:09
For the past two years or so, I’ve gotten the “bug”. For some strange reason, I find myself completely obsessed with the idea of thruhiking the AT. I’ve been reading everything I can about it, and find myself thinking about it every day. I suppose that in this forum, my obsession is pretty normal, but here’s where I deviate:
I have this recurring fear of the dangers of rattlesnakes on the trail. They blend into their surroundings, and could be lying almost anywhere on a warm day. They’re difficult to see if you’re watching, and nearly impossible to see if it’s getting dark or you’re not paying attention.
Has anyone here ever stepped on one, or been bitten by one? What happens if you are bitten and you’re several days from town? Is my fear totally irrational?
A few unstable people, I can deal with. Territorial bears and myopic moose give me no anxiety. Snakes, for some reason though, freak me out.
I made the mistake of googling snakebites. The pictures and stories of how ‘so and so nearly lost his leg’ etc.. are not good for a snake-a-phobic (is that a word?) like me.
i think this is common. for one, the actual thru hike will not be as in your romantic dreams. Secondly, you will likely be so tired and aggravated while hiking, sometimes you just won't care. If you get as far as PA, you likely wont care about much. I have not seen a Rattler on the AT. im notsure but i have yet to hear of a death by rattler on the AT, but it may have happened.
Sierra Echo
03-23-2011, 19:09
They don't always inject venom when they bite. Its called a dry bite!~
hikerhobs
03-23-2011, 19:10
I also have a terrible fear of snakes, and I've seen quite a few on the trail. Keep your eyes and ears open. Rattles will warn you, copperheads are sunning and just want to be left alone. Don't mess with them and give them their space. Oh, and before you set up camp....look in the trees! Camped at Rauch Gap and saw 3-4, 8 foot long black snakes in the trees. Needless to say, I didn't camp anywhere near that tree! I'm scared to death of snakes but they don't keep me off any trails.
P.S. Do they make you break out in a cold sweat?
Skidsteer
03-23-2011, 19:16
For the past two years or so, I’ve gotten the “bug”. For some strange reason, I find myself completely obsessed with the idea of thruhiking the AT. I’ve been reading everything I can about it, and find myself thinking about it every day. I suppose that in this forum, my obsession is pretty normal, but here’s where I deviate:
I have this recurring fear of the dangers of rattlesnakes on the trail. They blend into their surroundings, and could be lying almost anywhere on a warm day. They’re difficult to see if you’re watching, and nearly impossible to see if it’s getting dark or you’re not paying attention.
Has anyone here ever stepped on one, or been bitten by one? What happens if you are bitten and you’re several days from town? Is my fear totally irrational?
A few unstable people, I can deal with. Territorial bears and myopic moose give me no anxiety. Snakes, for some reason though, freak me out.
I made the mistake of googling snakebites. The pictures and stories of how ‘so and so nearly lost his leg’ etc.. are not good for a snake-a-phobic (is that a word?) like me.
Irrational fear. Saw this one on the side trail to Plum Orchard shelter:
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/6/7/7/9/0903889-R1-034-15A_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=10467&c=member&orderby=views&direction=DESC&imageuser=6779&cutoffdate=-1)
It was the high point of the trip.
I'd say one defense against snakes is using trekking poles. If you ever saw a pile of suspicious leaves, probe with your pole rather than your foot.
That said, I once encountered a dead snake on the AT near Old Rag Mountain in VA in the 1960's. I looked down at the last second, then leapt with a full pack onto a rock ledge about 4 feet next to the trail. After doing to some heavy breathing to calm down, I stupidly left the snake lying there.
About 15 minutes later, I doubled back along the trail, looking for a friend, and did the exact same leap when I saw the dead snake next to my foot, yet again. Finally, I wised up and moved the snake into the brush.
I've scarcely seen a snake in the wild since then, and it's my impression that they've gotten more scarce.
Some of you have seen more rattlesnakes on the AT than I did on the PCT. If you are bitten by a rattlesnake, walk slowly out to civilization. If you see a rattlesnake, take a picture if he's just sunning himself. Tap your trekking poles or stomp your foot so he feels the vibrations in the ground. He'll most likely slither away. If he doesn't, toss a few pebbles toward him. If he still won't go away, walk a wide circle around him. Nothing really to be afraid of.
WingedMonkey
03-23-2011, 19:30
The recommended treatments presented are those published in the current edition of Brady's Emergency Care for the Sick and Injured, the standard training and procedures manual for Emergency Medical Technicians.
There have been many snake bite remedies offered over the years. Recent studies have concluded that the following protocols are best:
Stay calm, get safely away from the snake, and have someone call 9-1-1 (or the emergency number in your area). The less the victim moves the bitten site, the less likely the venom will be spread through the body and cause damage.
Have the victim lie down with the affected limb lower than the heart. Keep the limb immobilized. If practical, splint the limb.
Treat for shock and preserve body heat.
Remove any rings, bracelets, boots, or other restricting items from the bitten extremity. (It WILL swell.)
Apply a light constricting band about 2" above and below the bite, however never place the bands on either side of a joint (such as above and below the knee or elbow). This band should be made up of wide, soft material, which could be a handkerchief or shredded clothing. The band should only be as tight as the band the nurse applies when taking a blood test.
NOTE: The purpose of constricting bands is to restrict lymphatic flow, not blood, so they should not be too tight. Check pulses below the bands and readjust the bands as necessary when they tighten due to swelling.
Wash the bite with soap and water (if available).
If the victim has to walk out, sit calmly for 20-30 minutes to let the venom localize at the site, then proceed calmly to the nearest source of help and try to avoid unnecessary exertion which will stimulate circulation of the venom.
Get the victim to definitive medical care for antivenin, which will provide the greatest relief from the toxic effects of the bite.
ACTIONS TO AVOID:
DO NOT cut the bite. The additional tissue damage may actually increase the diffusion of the toxins throughout the body.
DO NOT apply a tourniquet. Such action can result in the loss of the limb.
NEVER try to suck out the venom by mouth. You can try the suction cup in a snakebite kit if it doesn't delay other needed treatment. Suctioning seldom provides any measurable advantages, however.
Do not apply cold and/or ice packs. Recent studies indicate that application of cold or ice makes the injury much worse.
Sierra Echo
03-23-2011, 19:32
Irrational fear. Saw this one on the side trail to Plum Orchard shelter:
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/6/7/7/9/0903889-R1-034-15A_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=10467&c=member&orderby=views&direction=DESC&imageuser=6779&cutoffdate=-1)
It was the high point of the trip.
Skidsteer, dangit! I'm jealous of your picture! I'm looking forward
to my very first poisonous snake picture. I swear of gotten a pic of every nonvenomous snake, but its the trophy snakes that keep eluding me. Oh well, I'm co-leading a blood mtn loop hike this weekend. Maybe we will find one!
WingedMonkey
03-23-2011, 19:36
With all that said, you ain't gonna get bitten. I saw three together in the rocks just past Duncannon, (one was a copperhead) and I saw one three times in the same spot in New York before Bear Mountain. (the third time I took my pole and threw him off the log). I see them about once a year in Florida. They run and I run (sometimes backwards).
:sun
Skidsteer
03-23-2011, 19:36
Skidsteer, dangit! I'm jealous of your picture! I'm looking forward
to my very first poisonous snake picture. I swear of gotten a pic of every nonvenomous snake, but its the trophy snakes that keep eluding me. Oh well, I'm co-leading a blood mtn loop hike this weekend. Maybe we will find one!
Look for them on the Freeman Trail. I've seen them there as well. They love to sun themselves on the rocks in Spring.
Sierra Echo
03-23-2011, 19:41
Look for them on the Freeman Trail. I've seen them there as well. They love to sun themselves on the rocks in Spring.
I will keep an eye out. Unfortunately I will probably be last in line so whatever snakes are there will probably runaway before I get up to them. Maybe after the hike is over I will head back up to Freemans. I'm just hoping it doesnt rain!
johnnybgood
03-23-2011, 19:54
Skidsteer, dangit! I'm jealous of your picture! I'm looking forward
to my very first poisonous snake picture. I swear of gotten a pic of every nonvenomous snake, but its the trophy snakes that keep eluding me.
Watch for what you wish for. When you least expect to encounter one... just saying.
Sierra Echo
03-23-2011, 19:55
Watch for what you wish for. When you least expect to encounter one... just saying.
Oh I'm ALWAYS on the look out! I LOVE snakes!!!
Sierra Echo
03-23-2011, 20:00
This is where I'm gonna find my copperhead. I LOVE good advertising!
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=45875&c=550
Blissful
03-23-2011, 20:06
You'll likely see rattlers in PA among the rocks. I saw several. They are out there. But I'd be much more concerned about ticks and lyme disease. Those buggers you can hardly see at all.
LoneRidgeRunner
03-23-2011, 20:08
How about Copperheads ? I've seen many more of them hiking than Rattlesnakes.
Truth be told , the Rattlesnake will warn you first with his rattle.
Not always...I was never bitten but I have been very close to several Timber Rattlers....every one of then were coiled and ready to strike when I got just a step or 2 closer..They had no intention of "warning" me....They don't rattle as a warning either....It's a nervous reaction to what they sense as danger....If they always rattled before they bit they would starve to death....would a rodent stay and get bitten if they heard the rattler "warn" them? not likely... do NOT count on hearing a rattler....and you certainly won't hear the copperhead,, but Copperhead bites aren't nearly as serious as the rattler anyway..remember when a snake bites a human it is in self defense..not for a meal and many of those bites will be dry...A Pit Viper's venom is the way the snakes food is partly digested from the inside when the snake is ready to swallow the rat, mouse or whatever..
Many Walks
03-23-2011, 20:12
I will keep an eye out. Unfortunately I will probably be last in line so whatever snakes are there will probably runaway before I get up to them. Maybe after the hike is over I will head back up to Freemans. I'm just hoping it doesnt rain!
I've heard the first hiker wakes them up, the second hiker pisses them off and the third hiker gets bit! If you're the fourth hiker you still may see it.
Sierra Echo
03-23-2011, 20:19
I've heard the first hiker wakes them up, the second hiker pisses them off and the third hiker gets bit! If you're the fourth hiker you still may see it.
Actually I will be the 11th. But I like the saying and will remember never to be 3rd in line!
Twenty five years of sectioning and I've only seen one rattler. I tend to be very wary of snakes as I hike because of their ability to blend in. Just keep you wits about you and watch where you step.
fifo
Cookerhiker
03-23-2011, 20:45
....Tap your trekking poles or stomp your foot so he feels the vibrations in the ground. He'll most likely slither away. If he doesn't, toss a few pebbles toward him. If he still won't go away, walk a wide circle around him. Nothing really to be afraid of.
I've heard this going back to Boy Scout days and read it also and perhaps it's true in that when snakes feel my vibrations, they scat such that I never see them in the first place. Maybe that's happened a lot.
But 2 of my snake encounters didn't turn out this way at all. Years ago in Shenandoah NP in spring, a copperhead in the middle of the trail just wouldn't leave despite my jumping up & down, tosing pebbles, and poking him with a long stick. I finally got him wrapped around the stick and flung him off the trail. I surmised the mid-spring early morning cool weather made him sluggish.
But it wasn't cool (in every sense of the word) on the Allegheny Trail last year when we encountered a large coiled timber rattler on the right side of the trail with his head up facing the trail and his tail rattling vigorously. There were 2 of us but our vibrations didn't faze him at all. We couldn't go around him because the rhododendron was too dense on either side. I tossed a few rocks and actually hit him once squarely with a softball-sized rock and he still didn't leave.
Never got a photo because the light was poor and I didn't want to take my eyes off him. Finally found a long dead tree limb and poked him constantly until he finally slithered off into the stream about 5' off (parallel to) the trail on the right. Never stopped rattling. I kept my eyes on him in the water until we were safely past.
LordoftheWings
03-23-2011, 20:56
In all my years hunting and occasional day hiking in Pa to Fl I've never seen a rattler. (pigmy's yes) I fear snakes greatly (and will scream and flail like a cheerleader If I see one)
I've seen copperheads in Pa and LOTS of moccasins in Fl. I was even bit in 99 by a coral snake. I'm pretty sure I won't see one of those on the trail. I always just try to avoid them and give them LOTS of room when I see them. The coral snake wouldn't have bit me if I wasn't standing on it.
I'm more worried about psychotic clowns. That's what scares me the most.
I grabbed a rattlesnake by the head one time by mistake. Stupid act but true story. Fortunately I wasn't bit.
Point Man Chef
03-23-2011, 21:32
My son and I were coming up after being dropped at Woody Gap in GA. He was point man and got right up on a rattler laid out on a couple of rocks in the sunlight. As he stepped right beside him he said "Holy Crap!" Literally one foot off the path, the snake laid there not making a sound! I WALKED AROUND the snake and snapped a picture. I later told my son (16 yo) that I would have accepted any variation of "Holy Crap" given the circumstances. He will NEVER forget that section or that trip!!!
For the past two years or so, I’ve gotten the “bug”. For some strange reason, I find myself completely obsessed with the idea of thruhiking the AT. I’ve been reading everything I can about it, and find myself thinking about it every day. I suppose that in this forum, my obsession is pretty normal, but here’s where I deviate:
I have this recurring fear of the dangers of rattlesnakes on the trail. They blend into their surroundings, and could be lying almost anywhere on a warm day. They’re difficult to see if you’re watching, and nearly impossible to see if it’s getting dark or you’re not paying attention.
Has anyone here ever stepped on one, or been bitten by one? What happens if you are bitten and you’re several days from town? Is my fear totally irrational?
A few unstable people, I can deal with. Territorial bears and myopic moose give me no anxiety. Snakes, for some reason though, freak me out.
I made the mistake of googling snakebites. The pictures and stories of how ‘so and so nearly lost his leg’ etc.. are not good for a snake-a-phobic (is that a word?) like me.Eastern diamondback rattle snakes are supposedly the most dangerous snakes in the U.S.:http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/reptiles/eastern-diamondback-rattlesnake/ I can see having a fear/phobia of these creatures, but I believe in actuality they don't want to be bothered and will make the effort to warn you to back off if cornered. I can see if you stepped/sat on one or somehow managed to be bitten, it would be bad. I think though this would be very rare to occur and you would be better off to save your attention/worries for other potentially dangerous situations, such as loosing your footing on slipperey rocks/scree and taking a really nasty injurious fall.
I saw a dozen black snakes in Virginia all on one afternoon. They are non-venomous and I think they eat other snakes.
Those are the only snakes I have seen on the trail.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/TexasEd/2009%20Appalachian%20Trail/blacksnakeonbridge.jpg
Sassafras Lass
03-24-2011, 13:22
First thing to do is to stop feeding your fear. Be informed, not obsessed. Research the different species of snakes and learn which ones are poisonous and which ones are not.
Understand that snakes are not these evil creatures seeking you out. They feel your vibrations and will avoid you as much as possible. If you use trekking poles you can greatly reduce your chances of problems with snakes.
Something doesnt have to be evil to be dangerous to you. Saltwater crocs aren't evil but they still eat dozens of people every year.
wrongway_08
03-24-2011, 13:49
I saw a dozen black snakes in Virginia all on one afternoon. They are non-venomous and I think they eat other snakes.
Those are the only snakes I have seen on the trail.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/TexasEd/2009%20Appalachian%20Trail/blacksnakeonbridge.jpg
Nope, they don't eat other snakes (maybe if they were starvin but even then, i have not heard of it). rats, Rabbits, rodents of any kind. Fish if they must. Pretty much anything they can fit in their mouth. Mainly mice, rats, small rabbits and such.
wrongway_08
03-24-2011, 13:58
Taken from current first aid handbook:
"...[One can] leave them in place for up to two hours, without any apparent adverse effects on the limb. Longer tourniquet times are certainly possible without injury, but the longer the tourniquet is left in place, the more likely it is that hypoxic muscle injury will occur. After 10 hours, there is an increasing likelihood that the tissue below the tourniquet will not survive and will need to be amputated.
For that reason, it is important to understand that application of a tourniquet is undertaken only for life-saving reasons, in which the possible loss of a limb is minor in comparison to the alternative (loss of life)."
Don't do it. Not a good idea. Don't care if its the current first aid book.
The venom pooling in one spot will do more damage, even for the short term. Just worry about keeping calm and cool as possible. Get to a hospital and let them handle it with anti-venom. It is the only thing that will help take care of it without causing more damage then good.
Read up on the venom and its make up, you will understand why you don't want to do that.
It states "For that reason, it is important to understand that application of a tourniquet is undertaken only for life-saving reasons" = In other words DO NOT do this just for a snake bite BUT if you have a snake bite and your foot has been cut off - then do it to stop from bleeding out.
If you do it just for the snake bite - YOU WILL injury the person more then help then!!!!!! Please, read and make sure you understand what is written so you don't hurt people by trying to help them!
The recommended treatments presented are those published in the current edition of Brady's Emergency Care for the Sick and Injured, the standard training and procedures manual for Emergency Medical Technicians.
There have been many snake bite remedies offered over the years. Recent studies have concluded that the following protocols are best:
Stay calm, get safely away from the snake, and have someone call 9-1-1 (or the emergency number in your area). The less the victim moves the bitten site, the less likely the venom will be spread through the body and cause damage.
Have the victim lie down with the affected limb lower than the heart. Keep the limb immobilized. If practical, splint the limb.
Treat for shock and preserve body heat.
Remove any rings, bracelets, boots, or other restricting items from the bitten extremity. (It WILL swell.)
Apply a light constricting band about 2" above and below the bite, however never place the bands on either side of a joint (such as above and below the knee or elbow). This band should be made up of wide, soft material, which could be a handkerchief or shredded clothing. The band should only be as tight as the band the nurse applies when taking a blood test.
NOTE: The purpose of constricting bands is to restrict lymphatic flow, not blood, so they should not be too tight. Check pulses below the bands and readjust the bands as necessary when they tighten due to swelling.
Wash the bite with soap and water (if available).
If the victim has to walk out, sit calmly for 20-30 minutes to let the venom localize at the site, then proceed calmly to the nearest source of help and try to avoid unnecessary exertion which will stimulate circulation of the venom.
Get the victim to definitive medical care for antivenin, which will provide the greatest relief from the toxic effects of the bite.
ACTIONS TO AVOID:
DO NOT cut the bite. The additional tissue damage may actually increase the diffusion of the toxins throughout the body.
DO NOT apply a tourniquet. Such action can result in the loss of the limb.
NEVER try to suck out the venom by mouth. You can try the suction cup in a snakebite kit if it doesn't delay other needed treatment. Suctioning seldom provides any measurable advantages, however.
Do not apply cold and/or ice packs. Recent studies indicate that application of cold or ice makes the injury much worse.
Thanks, Winged Monkey! That's the most sensible course of treatment for snake bite that I've read and will definitely revise what I would do in the unlikely event of being bitten. The reasoning for using a compression band (NOT a tourniquet) is logical. Thanks again.
wrongway_08
03-24-2011, 14:09
Couple shots from my Thru
Rattler:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/wrongway_02/100_0926.jpg
Rattler:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/wrongway_02/102_0961.jpg
Rattler:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/wrongway_02/100_0923.jpg
Black Rat snake:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/wrongway_02/102_1285.jpg
Gardner eating a toad:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/wrongway_02/IMG_0504.jpg
Trust us, snakes are low on the list of worries on the A.T., or anywhere for that matter.
Spirit Walker
03-24-2011, 15:30
Most rattlesnake bites are from people picking up the snake. Some young men get bitten when they get drunk and kiss one on a dare. Or snake handlers proving their religious fervor. A hiker is not likely to get bitten if he/she doesn't reach down and pick the snake up.
I've seen a lot of snakes on various hikes. I was raised in Arizona, and they're common in the desert. On the PCT we saw three rattlers in half an hour. What I came to realize is that they really have no great interest in biting you - you're too big to eat. Why waste poison on something they can't feed upon? One day when I sat down to eat lunch,I looked in the bush a few feet away and saw a snake stretched ou in the shadet, quietly watching me. It was too hot for him to want to move, so it didn't even bother rattling. I wondered how many I had passed without knowing. Mostly, if you don't bother it, it won't bother you. If you do upset it enough that it coils, simply make a wide berth around it. It won't chase you.
bronconite
03-24-2011, 16:05
Nope, they don't eat other snakes (maybe if they were starvin but even then, i have not heard of it). rats, Rabbits, rodents of any kind. Fish if they must. Pretty much anything they can fit in their mouth. Mainly mice, rats, small rabbits and such.
Black Rat snakes are known to eat other snakes.
"Rat snakes eat birds, eggs, lizards, frogs, other snakes, chipmunks, squirrels, small rabbits, mice, rats, bats (see photo to the left), voles, shrews, and other small mammals (http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/glossary_hp.htm#mammal)."
http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/black_rat_snake.htm
Here is a series of photos of a large black snake eating a rattlesnake. They don't looked chopped to me, but who knows, they were found on the internet.
http://www.forwardon.com/view.php?e=Id11f1863f00f18fe5
Taken from current first aid handbook:
"...[One can] leave them in place for up to two hours, without any apparent adverse effects on the limb. Longer tourniquet times are certainly possible without injury, but the longer the tourniquet is left in place, the more likely it is that hypoxic muscle injury will occur. After 10 hours, there is an increasing likelihood that the tissue below the tourniquet will not survive and will need to be amputated.
For that reason, it is important to understand that application of a tourniquet is undertaken only for life-saving reasons, in which the possible loss of a limb is minor in comparison to the alternative (loss of life)."
This is not taking into account the venom of the snake, which will destroy living tissue.
You don't want to use a tourniquet with a rattlesnake bite. You want to stay calm, and walk out of the wilderness. Per every wilderness first aid training I've had in the past two years, including one taught by the local head of the trauma center, which deals with pretty much every wilderness injury that gets helicoptered out of the Sierra Nevada.
Generally any animal should be respected as a wild thing - just give them space and don't approach. For critters that camouflage being aware they are there, and where they tend to hang out, is most of the battle... Knowing there are copperheads means I'd be leading with the trekking pole(s) in leaves or anywhere it looked like they could be hanging out.
More people die due to insect stings than snake bite, bears, mountain lions or other animals - and deer kill more people than predators do. Which is not to say that you need to worry about any of them. Just be aware, stay clear, don't put hands or feet where you can't see them, know what to do about bites or stings - in other words, educate yourself. A first aid course will help. there are wilderness medicine guides to review.
You also need to educate yourself on the symptoms of hypothermia and dehydration - so you know how to avoid them, and how to recognize it in other people who may be irrational and needing someone else to step in and keep them alive. Running into someone who is suffering heat exhaustion or is hypothermic, you can see what they can't - that their mental state is altered and they can't make good decisions. Part of the reason wilderness first aid trainers will stress not going out alone is this - you can slip into either state easily, and having someone present to recognize it can mean the difference between getting you back to normal and your being lost and suffering and possibly dying on the trail. More people die of hypothermia in spring, summer and fall, simply because they don't understand that it's possible at 40-50F.
One page of many at this site - http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/safety/heatcold.shtml
Lots of good info there.
Your odds, per one of the many statistical reports on wild animal deaths hanging about the internet, of being killed by a venomous snake - 1 in 4,490,000....
Significantly less chance than being murdered (1 in 228) or drowning (1 in 2,378). Or a car accident (1 in 84).
Learn as much as you can about prevention, treatment, and keep going on short trips before you depart on the Big One. You'll be fine.
the critter to take precautions against/fear is ticks, they are most likely to cause long term problems
Trust us, snakes are low on the list of worries on the A.T., or anywhere for that matter.
Don't say that to the folks in the Everglades and South Florida. They have a battle right now with pythons, and they're losing. Trying desperately to keep them out of the keys.
ShelterLeopard
03-24-2011, 18:42
For the past two years or so, I’ve gotten the “bug”. For some strange reason, I find myself completely obsessed with the idea of thruhiking the AT. I’ve been reading everything I can about it, and find myself thinking about it every day. I suppose that in this forum, my obsession is pretty normal, but here’s where I deviate:
I have this recurring fear of the dangers of rattlesnakes on the trail. They blend into their surroundings, and could be lying almost anywhere on a warm day. They’re difficult to see if you’re watching, and nearly impossible to see if it’s getting dark or you’re not paying attention.
Has anyone here ever stepped on one, or been bitten by one? What happens if you are bitten and you’re several days from town? Is my fear totally irrational?
A few unstable people, I can deal with. Territorial bears and myopic moose give me no anxiety. Snakes, for some reason though, freak me out.
I made the mistake of googling snakebites. The pictures and stories of how ‘so and so nearly lost his leg’ etc.. are not good for a snake-a-phobic (is that a word?) like me.
I was walking along, zoned out completely and I looked down and there was a snake between my legs- I must've jumped five feet. It turned out it WAS a rattlesnake- I don't know why it didn't start rattling right off, but when I ventured a little closer, it started rattling like crazy. Moral of the story- I almost stepped on the thing (HUGE) and it didn't bite me. It warned me the second time it saw me, but all was fine.
Don't bother them, they won't bother you.
But do watch where you step.
SouthMark
03-24-2011, 19:00
Your fear is irrational fear but no problem unless it is "impairing ".
harryfred
03-24-2011, 19:02
I saw one rattlesnake during my thru hike, and I wouldn't have seen it if someone hadn't asked me to identify it. It was lying in a pit behind a shelter in PA. Snakes have no interest in biting anything that they can't eat. Try not to worry about them. There is really no danger.
litefoot 2000
Rattle snakes really don't want to bite you.
harryfred
03-24-2011, 19:05
How about Copperheads ? I've seen many more of them hiking than Rattlesnakes.
Truth be told , the Rattlesnake will warn you first with his rattle . The Copperhead will not.
True story : my wife was bitten by a Copperhead in our local county park in mid-afternoon on a well paved path. Talk about blending in with its' surrounding. Dead leafs and a copper colored snake...
Truth! copper heads are much more aggressive smaller and stealthy.
harryfred
03-24-2011, 19:10
I did 450 miles on the Arizona trail blasting music the whole time. Didn't see one snake. I think I would have heard the ones that choose to rattle though. If your alone and moving fast though, they wont rattle till your walking right by them. On PCT some evenings I saw so many snakes, I would lose the tunes, but supposedly most of the ones old enough to rattle won't release venom into a person. They save this for their food. It takes a while for a snake to make venom, and they supposedly don't like to waste it. The young ones don't have rattles, and will lay motionless in the trail, making them very difficult to spot. These ones allegedly always release venom upon biting, making them scary.
Personally I am a lot more worried about mosquitos, heat rash, and receiving doses of radiation at the airport from the scanner.
Young rattlers can't control their poison or rattle this makes them the most dangerous Older rattlers can chose how much poison to release.
harryfred
03-24-2011, 19:15
Old school and no longer recommended, does more harm and can lead to gangrene.
Cutting and "sucking" out the poison also not recommended.
You beat me to it.
harryfred
03-24-2011, 19:17
Given the chance, most snakes will get out of your way. They aren't interested in you unless you bother them. I've heard that most people who get bitten are trying to kill a snake or catch it, both of which the snake will naturally object to.
Like a lot of people on this site, I've spent a lifetime outdoors at various pursuits and while I've seen snakes they generally hide from us. Just watch where you step and don't tiptoe on the trail- they're deaf but they can feel your footsteps.
I worry more about ticks and mosquitoes that carry diseases.
:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana: banana:banana:banana:banana:banana
harryfred
03-24-2011, 19:19
They don't always inject venom when they bite. Its called a dry bite!~
TRUE! but watch out for juveniles.
harryfred
03-24-2011, 19:21
Some of you have seen more rattlesnakes on the AT than I did on the PCT. If you are bitten by a rattlesnake, walk slowly out to civilization. If you see a rattlesnake, take a picture if he's just sunning himself. Tap your trekking poles or stomp your foot so he feels the vibrations in the ground. He'll most likely slither away. If he doesn't, toss a few pebbles toward him. If he still won't go away, walk a wide circle around him. Nothing really to be afraid of.
:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana: banana:banana:banana
wrongway_08
03-24-2011, 19:23
Black Rat snakes are known to eat other snakes.
"Rat snakes eat birds, eggs, lizards, frogs, other snakes, chipmunks, squirrels, small rabbits, mice, rats, bats (see photo to the left), voles, shrews, and other small mammals (http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/glossary_hp.htm#mammal)."
http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/black_rat_snake.htm
Here is a series of photos of a large black snake eating a rattlesnake. They don't looked chopped to me, but who knows, they were found on the internet.
http://www.forwardon.com/view.php?e=Id11f1863f00f18fe5
Cool, never seen them do it or have heard of them doing it. Doesn't mean I can't be wrong .... :)
wrongway_08
03-24-2011, 19:28
Black Rat snakes are known to eat other snakes.
"Rat snakes eat birds, eggs, lizards, frogs, other snakes, chipmunks, squirrels, small rabbits, mice, rats, bats (see photo to the left), voles, shrews, and other small mammals (http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/glossary_hp.htm#mammal)."
http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/black_rat_snake.htm
Here is a series of photos of a large black snake eating a rattlesnake. They don't looked chopped to me, but who knows, they were found on the internet.
http://www.forwardon.com/view.php?e=Id11f1863f00f18fe5
The 2nd link (showing the snake eating a rattler) doesn't look to be a black rat snake.
No white markings on face or belly. The first link has a good photo that you can see the white markings on the face and belly of the black snake. Going to look into this a little more.
You see a lot of black snakes hang around rattlers, thats how I cought the big rattler in my photo - The black snake went under a rock and when I leaned over to grab it, there was that rattler sitting there looking at me! Pretty cold hearted to be room mates with the rattler and then wake up one morning and decide "I'm going to eat his ass for breakfast!" :eek::D
WingedMonkey
03-24-2011, 19:34
Don't say that to the folks in the Everglades and South Florida. They have a battle right now with pythons, and they're losing. Trying desperately to keep them out of the keys.
True, pythons are now breeding in the Everglades. The estimate is anywhere from hundreds to thousands. The state has tried an open season to kill them.
The official statement read: "All properly licensed and permitted hunters have the authority, if they wish, to harvest pythons and other reptiles of concern (Indian python, reticulated python, northern and southern African rock python, amethystine or scrub python, green anaconda, and Nile monitor lizard) on Everglades, Francis S. Taylor, Holey Land and Rotenberger WMAs and Big Cypress National Preserve."
Since hunting is not allowed in the National Park they have hired trappers to both kill and try and get a realistic count on them. and the state is trying to control the pet trade and their foolish release.
However I have heard of no reports of a wild one attacking anyone yet. There is a much published photo of one eating an alligator that was too large and split the snake open. There was a two year old killed by a captive snake.
Thanks so much for all your responses. There's a lot of great advice here. Truth is that I've see lots of snakes while hiking and know that they don't have any desire to tangle with people. My fear, which has never prevented me from going out, and never will, is really about accidentally stepping on one. I know it's low on the list of things to worry about, but it's what I tend to focus on.
Wrongway, your pictures are amazing!!
Sierra Echo
03-24-2011, 19:41
Young rattlers can't control their poison or rattle this makes them the most dangerous Older rattlers can chose how much poison to release.
Actually your answer isn't quite correct:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_venom_from_a_baby_rattlesnake_more_poisonous_th an_that_of_a_mature_rattlesnake
WingedMonkey
03-24-2011, 19:44
Here is a series of photos of a large black snake eating a rattlesnake. They don't looked chopped to me, but who knows, they were found on the internet.
http://www.forwardon.com/view.php?e=Id11f1863f00f18fe5
That may be a Florida (Eastern) Indigo Snake. A protected species that eats corn snakes and rattlesnakes. It is know to go into Gopher Tortoise holes to both to live and to hunt rattlesnakes. They don't constrict their prey and neither does it seem the one in the photo is.
harryfred
03-24-2011, 19:54
I have been bitten by a rattle snake (Mojave Green) and a Copperhead both times my fault. Oh and a Water Moccasin. Rattle Snake had to walk over an hour back to my truck and drive home 1/2 hr? was in pretty bad shape when they got me to Victor Valley hospital. Point is I had to walk out and drive out and taken to medical and I am still here. Copperhead think the worse bee sting you can imagine no medical treatment. Same with the Watermocosin. Note I was raised in the Allegheny hills please if you get bit by a snake get medical help I am just saying don't panic if you are bitten. In PA i have seen only one rattle snake and he was waaaay out here.
stranger
03-24-2011, 19:57
For the past two years or so, I’ve gotten the “bug”. For some strange reason, I find myself completely obsessed with the idea of thruhiking the AT. I’ve been reading everything I can about it, and find myself thinking about it every day. I suppose that in this forum, my obsession is pretty normal, but here’s where I deviate:
I have this recurring fear of the dangers of rattlesnakes on the trail. They blend into their surroundings, and could be lying almost anywhere on a warm day. They’re difficult to see if you’re watching, and nearly impossible to see if it’s getting dark or you’re not paying attention.
Has anyone here ever stepped on one, or been bitten by one? What happens if you are bitten and you’re several days from town? Is my fear totally irrational?
A few unstable people, I can deal with. Territorial bears and myopic moose give me no anxiety. Snakes, for some reason though, freak me out.
I made the mistake of googling snakebites. The pictures and stories of how ‘so and so nearly lost his leg’ etc.. are not good for a snake-a-phobic (is that a word?) like me.
Your fears are not rational, any fear of snakes is not rational really. I live in Australia mate (American by birth) and we have some big snakes over here that all are in the top 20 most poisonous list, meaning you will die from them if you do not seek medical treatment.
Let me be clear, we have big, deadly snakes...and we see them all the time in some places, I've seen 3 in one day! I've met and talked to hundreds of hikers, I don't know anyone who even knows someone who has been bit, let alone been bit themselves.
Snakes are scary, I hate snakes, hate them...but I still go hiking, alone in the Australian bush all the time. Because our fear of snakes might be rational in terms of what happens IF we get bit, but our chances of being bitten are nearly zero. Even then, 80% of all snake bites are 'dry', meaning no venom is injected.
One of the best things I've ever heard regarding snakes is this:
- A snake does not know it's a snake, meaning it fears you alot more than you fear it
- A snake barely has a brain, so if it's head is hidden, it thinks it's whole body is hidden, so while you may see a snake, it's actually trying to hide from you in many cases
- Only two types of snakes actually bite people...scared snakes and angry snakes
Especially along the AT, snakes are a non-issue if you keep your eyes peeled, it's almost impossible to die from a snakebite in the eastern US.
Read up on the topic, it will help this irrational, but very real fear...it did for me.
harryfred
03-24-2011, 19:58
Actually your answer isn't quite correct:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_venom_from_a_baby_rattlesnake_more_poisonous_th an_that_of_a_mature_rattlesnake
I'll accept that and look further thank you.
Sierra Echo
03-24-2011, 20:00
I'll accept that and look further thank you.
That is probably one of the most mature answers I have ever seen on WB in response to someone challenging an answer! +10!!
harryfred
03-24-2011, 20:05
May we meet on the trail do you like Scotch:D
Sierra Echo
03-24-2011, 20:06
May we meet on the trail do you like Scotch:D
Ive been known to drink it! :P
WingedMonkey
03-24-2011, 20:26
Ive been known to drink it! :P
No wonder you never see a snake :rolleyes:
Sierra Echo
03-24-2011, 20:50
No wonder you never see a snake :rolleyes:
I said i have never seen a VENOMOUS snake!
AegisIII
03-24-2011, 21:06
I have been bitten by a rattle snake (Mojave Green) and a Copperhead both times my fault. Oh and a Water Moccasin. [...] In PA i have seen only one rattle snake and he was waaaay out here.
And yet it seems you don't live too far from Tuscarora State Forest. Martin Hill wouldn't be too far away either. I would think you'd be able to see as many rattlers as you wanted to. And remind me not to hike with you with all those bites.
Mountain Mike
03-24-2011, 22:23
I only saw two on my thruhike of AT. Both did nothing as I passed by. A third Rattled in NJ as I was hoping down soe rocks. just kept hoping down.
Saw qute a few on PCT. 1st one a good 7' that slithered off into brush from his sunning spot when I stopped to take a pick. About only one that rattled at me was a diamondback cuss I stopped right next to him to check my map. Looked down & was about 1' away from were he was waiting for his next meal. I just steped away. Hiker within sight of me walked right by & never saw it. Seen numerous times of this happening. Cruise right by while snake is waiting for a mouse or something else using the trail. I even walked by the aggresive Green Mojave Diamondback seeing something in the brush but thought it was a lizard. I was on the move for to next h2o in 19 miles. Hiker right behind me saw it crossing the trail.
So fears of snakes are unfounded from my 5,000 miles of hiking thus far. Worry about shelter mice more!
I stepped over a black snake stretched across the trail. I thought it was a stick till I was over it. Hiker behind me thought the same thing. Boy was she surprised when I showed her the snake.
Forgive me if you've heard this story before.... :)
I was hiking into Pearisburg and planted my boot down just a few inches (like 2 or 3) from a stretched out copperhead and I stopped dead in my tracks and it coiled up and was doing that dance thing with it's mouth wide open and hissing - l can still see it.
My very first thought was "nice snake....". I VERY slowly eased my foot away, the snake relaxed, stretched out and slithered off....
I heard a rattlesnake once. Didn't see it. Instinct took over. My body reacted before my brain processed what it was.
I've seen more bears than snakes.
Az