Too Much Trail Magic

[Glenn]

I was amazed to read the amount of trail magic this year. One hiker described 5 acts of trail magic in his first 5 days. It's not only at road crossings but seems to be at every shelter in Georgia. Years ago I used to be one of the few people to give out food on a weekday in March. Now I feel I may be ruining the experience. I think I may have joined the "you should provide for yourself and skip trail magic" group. Never thought that would happen:(

[Lone Wolf]

that's not trail magic. they're just feeds. hikers have food in their packs. they don't need to be fed. especially down south

[rambunny]

It leads to entitlement issues later.

[Pedaling Fool]

Appalachian Trail, Gerogia to Maine:
A Footpath for Those who seek Fellowship with the Wilderness.




Yeah right, my ass:rolleyes:. It's a footpath for those that seek social interactions in the woods with cattle-like feeds.

[Lone Wolf]

Appalachian Trail, Gerogia to Maine:
A Footpath for Those who seek Fellowship with the Wilderness.




Yeah right, my ass:rolleyes:. It's a footpath for those that seek social interactions in the woods with cattle-like feeds.

...and frat-like parties

[4eyedbuzzard]

that's not trail magic. they're just feeds. hikers have food in their packs. they don't need to be fed. especially down south
I thought feeding the wildlife was against LNT anyway? :rolleyes: But yeah, people who have the coin to take a 6 month vacation don't need free food.


It leads to entitlement issues later.
Us frugal (cheap) New Englanders know better - we even charge 'em for campsites when we can. And people call us liberal. Hah! :rolleyes: :D


Appalachian Trail, Gerogia to Maine:
A Footpath for Those who seek Fellowship with the Wilderness.
Yeah right, my ass:rolleyes:. It's a footpath for those that seek social interactions in the woods with cattle-like feeds.


...and frat-like parties

It definitely wasn't like this years ago. I haven't been to the southern Appalachians in thru-hiker season since April 1979. That year I met other hikers, but there were no hordes and it wasn't a traveling frat party atmosphere. "Trail magic" was perhaps an unexpected ride into town, lodging (with a shower and laundry!) in someone's home or even yard, some extra food from section hikers, and maybe a cold drink. But it was low key and definitely not a daily thing. I always kind of revered Ed Garvey and a few others, but I also think by popularizing the idea of thru-hiking they may have done the trail a disservice in that sense.

From all the stories about what has become of thru-hiking and the annual Springer Fever party and the enablers on the sidelines, I'm thinking that SOBO and "alternative itineraries" like flops are probably better for both the trail and from a "wilderness experience" standpoint.

Oh well, kind of sad.

[10-K]

I'm looking forward to my BMT thru in a few weeks. It's supposed to have a completely different vibe than the AT.

[ShelterLeopard]

I was amazed to read the amount of trail magic this year. One hiker described 5 acts of trail magic in his first 5 days. It's not only at road crossings but seems to be at every shelter in Georgia. Years ago I used to be one of the few people to give out food on a weekday in March. Now I feel I may be ruining the experience. I think I may have joined the "you should provide for yourself and skip trail magic" group. Never thought that would happen:(

I never experienced a "hiker feed". I left a fair amount earlier than most thrus (mid- feb), so I was ahead of most of the trail magic. The trail magic I experienced was mostly from individual people, some day hiker who'd brought ice cold drinks in his pack, coke sitting under a bridge, more cold coolers of drinks along the trail... I came across a fair amount of coolers. I ran into the tail end end of one feed, and got oatmeal cookies...

So Glenn, you wouldn't have ruined the experience for me! :D

[sbhikes]

I agree that's not trail magic. Trail magic is when the other person involved does not know that what they are doing is trail magic. It sometimes does not involve another person. It's an act of serendipity on the trail when what you needed appears just when you needed it most.

These food events and coolers on the trail aren't trail magic unless you stumble into one completely unaware just when you were worrying that you might run out of food or water or were feeling totally lonely. (It sounds like there is little opportunity on the AT to know what any of that feels like. Too bad.)

[Lilred]

I agree that's not trail magic. Trail magic is when the other person involved does not know that what they are doing is trail magic. It sometimes does not involve another person. It's an act of serendipity on the trail when what you needed appears just when you needed it most.

These food events and coolers on the trail aren't trail magic unless you stumble into one completely unaware just when you were worrying that you might run out of food or water or were feeling totally lonely. (It sounds like there is little opportunity on the AT to know what any of that feels like. Too bad.)

I've been saying the same thing for years. So many people say they do hiker feeds to 'give back to the trail'. Do some trail maintenance or donate to the ATC if you want to give back. There is absolutely nothing magic about a hiker feed.

[topshelf]

This is why I avoid shelters everywhere on the trail if I can and stealth camp, and I also hurry through road crossings and populated areas.

Anyone else in here never received trail magic? I have always refused to accept trail magic of any kind (I do not consider hitching trail magic).

Maybe if the hikers weren't so willing to take everything someone else gave them, less people would be out giving feeds and whatnot. It just speaks to the laziness of today's society, and that laziness is coming out on the trail. These hikers need to learn the words "No, Thanks".

[Bearpaw]

I'm looking forward to my BMT thru in a few weeks. It's supposed to have a completely different vibe than the AT.

In section hiking the BMT, I never ran into another backpacker outside the Smokies. It's a different feel from any other long trail I've hiked.

[ShelterLeopard]

Anyone else in here never received trail magic? I have always refused to accept trail magic of any kind (I do not consider hitching trail magic).

Maybe if the hikers weren't so willing to take everything someone else gave them, less people would be out giving feeds and whatnot. It just speaks to the laziness of today's society, and that laziness is coming out on the trail. These hikers need to learn the words "No, Thanks".

I understand what all y'all are saying, about true trail magic v. coolers and people set up with grills. I've experienced plenty of "true trail magic", like being completely out of water and suddenly stumbling upon a cool creek I didn't expect, or a beautiful place to sit for lunch, etc... But I don't really understand why so many people are so against accepting kindness from strangers. Someone brings a cooler of ice cold soda out to the trail because they just want to brighten someone's day, maybe return the favor that they experienced on the trail. Why can't you just enjoy it? If you really don't want to be part of it, fine. But you don't have to say that trail magic is ruining the trail or means laziness.

[ShelterLeopard]

(I understand the magic of an empty trail with no one from the "outside", how a more isolated experience is different. But the AT is different now- if you want to be really left alone, the CDT might be a better bet.)

[WingedMonkey]

Someone brings a cooler of ice cold soda out to the trail because they just want to brighten someone's day, maybe return the favor that they experienced on the trail.

More likely they are lonely and miss the trail. They need to be hiking instead.

[johnnyblisters]

Bunch of bitter ninnies on this site. Who cares if people are giving away free food, sounds f-ing great to my wallet! Boo hoo, the AT ain't what it used to be, get used to it.

[ShelterLeopard]

My thoughts too Johnny- bring on the burgers!

[SmokeEater]

Bunch of bitter ninnies on this site. Who cares if people are giving away free food, sounds f-ing great to my wallet! Boo hoo, the AT ain't what it used to be, get used to it.
Remember its hike you're own hike as long as its "Thier" hike.

[WingedMonkey]

...and frat-like parties

Here's a post from March 18, 2011

"We ended up having a very fun night last night at the Low Gap Shelter. Some previous thru hikers packed in around 300 beers as well as about 150 hot dogs."

I guess they are taking it off the road and to the shelters now.

[Doctari]

that's not trail magic. they're just feeds. hikers have food in their packs. they don't need to be fed. especially down south

I agree.
To my mind "Group feeds" are Trail CHARITY, not trail magic.
Trail Magic on the other hand is, at least to me: offering a tired camper your left over hot water so he/she can have dinner a bit faster. The tourist who tosses a hiker a apple & says "Have a nice hike". The local who gives a group of smelly hikers a ride into town on a rainy day just because he was goin that way. THAT is magic! 2 weeks of planing is nice, and I'm sure further from the starting point they are very well appreciated, but that isn't magic. I for one will not turn down Trail Charity, but it doesn't give the same warm feeling as the spontaneous acts of kindness that is "Real" trail magic.

[Jeff]

It leads to entitlement issues later.

For some hikers it certainly does !!!!

[Pony]

Indeed. I was taking a break at the road crossing with "1,000" painted on it. I was pretty embarrassed when another hiker flagged a vehicle down and asked for a cold soda.

[WingedMonkey]

I agree.
To my mind "Group feeds" are Trail CHARITY, not trail magic.
Trail Magic on the other hand is, at least to me: offering a tired camper your left over hot water so he/she can have dinner a bit faster. The tourist who tosses a hiker a apple & says "Have a nice hike". The local who gives a group of smelly hikers a ride into town on a rainy day just because he was goin that way. THAT is magic! 2 weeks of planing is nice, and I'm sure further from the starting point they are very well appreciated, but that isn't magic. I for one will not turn down Trail Charity, but it doesn't give the same warm feeling as the spontaneous acts of kindness that is "Real" trail magic.

Very well said.:welcome

[Pony]

For some hikers it certainly does !!!!

You know, now that I think of it, I really wanted Chunky Monkey when I stayed at your hostel, and all you had was Americone Dream. I think you should do a better job in accomodating thru hikers.:D

[sbhikes]

On the PCT I got embarrassed with myself when I started looking forward to road crossings and felt disappointed when there was no cooler waiting for me.

My second time around I a) hiked the northern portion of the trail and b) hiked it outside the herd and I found a lot less trail magic. When I found a cooler just past the Oregon border it was the first such cooler my entire trip and it really warmed my heart. It had a register inside that said "Celebrate reaching the Oregon border with a cold one on us!" I was feeling really lonely and reaching the Oregon border had been such a huge milestone for me and I had nobody to share it with and suddenly here was this inanimate object making me feel so much less alone. I really did celebrate with a cold one!

That experience was so much different from the constant coolers of the southern portion of the trail when I was hiking within the herd. That entitlement mentality was creeping up on me because I was expecting and looking forward to a cooler at every road and feeling almost angry or at least annoyed when there wasn't one. I felt ashamed of myself.

From the sounds of it, there are so many of these coolers and hiker feeds and parties and stuff that I think I wouldn't even look forward to a cooler on the trail. I would probably start walking by most of them with a lack of interest, or possibly annoyance at the intrusion.

[FatMan]

I'll let others decide good or bad, but last year the first weekend in April there were grills set up at Cooper Gap, Gooch Gap, and Woody Gap.

[Lone Wolf]

neither. just a waste. hikers ain't even got an appetite yet and it's trainin' them for future handouts just for bein' on vacation. weird

[Blissful]

Hike SOBO and there ain't nuthin. That's the direction to go for the trail hardy. NOBO is for whimps.

:D:D:D:D

(kidding. Actually I loved going both directions. I just love the AT and the people I meet)

[Blissful]

I saw a box chained down south from a church group going SOBO; only one I'd seen since Hanover, NH. It was like heaven. I ate four of those greasy donut-like things. Had a great mileage day too

[Blissful]

That's why I like setting up in SNP at the end of May for the hiker picnic. The hikers then hadn't gotten anything in weeks (probably since the Bland area). I had hikers I saw up in NH and ME recognize me after that feed last year. It was fun

[Penguin]

Here's a post from March 18, 2011

"We ended up having a very fun night last night at the Low Gap Shelter. Some previous thru hikers packed in around 300 beers as well as about 150 hot dogs."

I guess they are taking it off the road and to the shelters now.

Sounds like some nice people. If hikers don't want to experience a party, they should just not stay at that shelter. An additional half mile of walking would take the hiker away from noise and leave them a peaceful solo night. The shelters are for whoever feels like using them in any manner. Not just for through hikers. It would be nice if no one else used them, but who would even consider not allowing others in a shelter. No one could enforce it either. Better to hang out with a dude with 300 beers, then not I say.

Though I've only ever spent 1 night in a shelter, that was on my 2nd PCT through hike in Oregon, just past Dead Indian rd. Taught me that one little mouse can really aggravate 2 people. Though after hanging my backpack from a hook and line the mouse was ok.

[thelowend]

I was amazed to read the amount of trail magic this year. One hiker described 5 acts of trail magic in his first 5 days. It's not only at road crossings but seems to be at every shelter in Georgia. Years ago I used to be one of the few people to give out food on a weekday in March. Now I feel I may be ruining the experience. I think I may have joined the "you should provide for yourself and skip trail magic" group. Never thought that would happen:(

SOLUTION! Hike SB :banana

[thelowend]

Hike SOBO and there ain't nuthin. That's the direction to go for the trail hardy. NOBO is for whimps.

:D:D:D:D

(kidding. Actually I loved going both directions. I just love the AT and the people I meet)

Apologize for the redundancy. SHoulda read through the thread :p

[jesse]

Last year I hiked from Dicks Creek to NOC. There was a couple waiting at a road crossing because they were helping friends slack pack (which is kinda lame IMO, but thats a different thread). They offered us soda's and we accepted. Nice couple no harm.
Walked just past the road, and some idiot left a ziplock bag full of goodies with a note offering the candy to any hiker who wanted it.

If you just gotta do magic, stay with your stuff. Do not leave stuff in coolers, streams, or zip lock bags. Its not magic, its litter. Litter puts me in a foul mood.

[Cookerhiker]

I agree that's not trail magic. Trail magic is when the other person involved does not know that what they are doing is trail magic. It sometimes does not involve another person. It's an act of serendipity on the trail when what you needed appears just when you needed it most.

These food events and coolers on the trail aren't trail magic unless you stumble into one completely unaware just when you were worrying that you might run out of food or water or were feeling totally lonely. (It sounds like there is little opportunity on the AT to know what any of that feels like. Too bad.)


I agree.
To my mind "Group feeds" are Trail CHARITY, not trail magic.
Trail Magic on the other hand is, at least to me: offering a tired camper your left over hot water so he/she can have dinner a bit faster. The tourist who tosses a hiker a apple & says "Have a nice hike". The local who gives a group of smelly hikers a ride into town on a rainy day just because he was goin that way. THAT is magic! 2 weeks of planing is nice, and I'm sure further from the starting point they are very well appreciated, but that isn't magic. I for one will not turn down Trail Charity, but it doesn't give the same warm feeling as the spontaneous acts of kindness that is "Real" trail magic.

Agree with these sentiments.

The best Trail Magic I ever received was when a hiker behind me found my pole tip in the mud, caught up with me on top of the mountain, and held it out "this yours?"

[weary]

neither. just a waste. hikers ain't even got an appetite yet and it's trainin' them for future handouts just for bein' on vacation. weird
And a bit pathetic. Both on the part of the givers and the takers.

[SassyWindsor]

I am not opposed to anyone who wants to give away free stuff to hikers, if they get spoiled from handouts, just lock your food in the trunk when you leave your car. I have seen on a couple of occasions where a couple doing the handout thing talked a guy into going to a local clinic for some much needed medical attention, they gave him a lift, and I imagine they waited to see if he needed a lift back. Another time a girl had twisted her knee to the point of hobbling, we had been trying for days to get her to have it checked, another trail magic family we ran up on insisted in giving her a lift to the bus station to return home. Sometimes it good to have a pleasant social along the trail, gives one an ego boost and you make new friends. So, if some hikers get spoiled, tough, at least it isn't hailing.

[Tinker]

neither. just a waste. hikers ain't even got an appetite yet and it's trainin' them for future handouts just for bein' on vacation. weird
The bears have to work harder for their food than some NOBO hikers in Ga. ;)

[ShelterLeopard]

+1 sassywindsor

[Jack Tarlin]

This is turning into an annual debate.

A few quick thoughts.

Trail magic at Trailheads and parking lots is fine;anyone claiming this damages
their "wilderness" experience should probably be hiking out West somewhere.

Trail magic or big feeds/parties in shelters is another story.

As to how to deal with it, I was raised in Boston, but I bet it's pretty much the same everywhere: Someone offers you something you don't need or you're not interested in, you simile at them, say "No, thank you!", and you keep walking.

Not that complicated and not that big an issue. A grill or a cooler in a roadside turnout or parking lot is not a world crisis. You're not thirsty or don't like burgers? Well, walk on by, dude, it's that easy.

[Old Hiker]

Walking down the highway to Suches to pick up the vehicle with resupply and a lady stopped and asked me if I wanted a ride. I was NOT hitchhiking - I was planning to walk the whole way. Unexpected and totally wonderful.

Day hiking above Neels Gap and found a couple who had no maps, but were doing sections of the AT to celebrate their wedding. I was about through with my GA/NC maps, so I gave the maps to the couple. They didn't ask - hopefully, it was unexpected and totally wonderful.

No opinion on the "feeds", as I have not experienced one yet. Maybe next year!

[southpaw95]

Since 1995 we have had some kind of gig where we feed or help out hikers. We'll sit up somewhere near the trail for the day and hope that some hikers come by.We do not advertise or anything like that. It is something that we look forward to each year.
I get just as much out of it as the hikers... that's a GREAT thing. It's fun and we have enjoyed meeting hundreds of hikers through the years.

With all the hikers that hike each year, they are gonna want to do this kind of stuff after they hike, so naturally it's going to be more each year.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that in a world that has gone mad... what is wrong with a little or a lot of goodness, kindness, magic...
whatever you want to call it.

Happy trails to all.:sun

[skooch]

WOW is anyone seriously judging people who want to be nice? Who says you have to partake? I can't imagine anyone refusing a love offering.

[Lone Wolf]

I can't imagine anyone refusing a love offering.

i have. many times. i didn't need or want it

[JF2CBR]

Simple: If you don't want it, don't take it. But also don't complain about it being there for the people that arent too proud to take advantage. It's a nice gesture and it helps past hikers that may be removed from the trail for one reason or another reconnect. Don't be hatin'!

[CowHead]

if wasn't for the beer and social interaction I would just stay home and watch chuck norris or bear for outdoor entertainment

[max patch]

Pre-planned hikers feeds are not needed by hikers, the ATC discourages them, and there are a whole lot of worthy charities that could use the money you spend on hiker feeds to help people who really need the help.

[Blissful]

Golly here we go again.

I even blogged about this on my hiker blog.

If you want to feed hikers do it. it ain't no one's business (including the ATC if that is a true statement) what you do with your food, time, and money.

[Digger'02]

Golly here we go again.

I even blogged about this on my hiker blog.

If you want to feed hikers do it. it ain't no one's business (including the ATC if that is a true statement) what you do with your food, time, and money.

I don't agree with that. Land managment agencies will deffinately make it their buisness, believe that. Also, I think the ATC has been pretty good about presenting some valid concerns in a positive way. I mean its their buisness to make sure the trail stays the trail, and if it wasn't their buisness i think a lot of things would get out of hand quick.

Shuttles to Gatlinburg would be the best magic at NFG though, thats deffinately true.

[Bare Bear]

I would have to plead 'guilty' of putting on a few 'hiker feeds' and running a lot of hikers into towns when I could; and enjoying some Trail Magic on my own hikes. I also recall that the #1 Item that got the most THANKS MAN! was putting the portalets at Stecoah Gap for two years before being run off by the few locals that did not want hikers there in any shape, way or manner. I still highly recommend Jeff & Nancy's Hike Inn near Fontana but I guess that too puts me on a few lists. Oh well.

[putts]

I don't know the answer, but how much of the trail literature out there glorifies "Yogi"ing.

Iv'e seen some pathetic things that were later touted as "he can Yogi anything".

Its sad. Take care of yourself instead of guilting others to provide for you.

Oh, to keep on topic, I love hiker feeds when I'm the hungry hiker, otherwise they ruin everything.

[Wise Old Owl]

It leads to entitlement issues later.

Oh OK we won't be hand feeding hikers above the Mason Dixon Line soon...:D

[Wise Old Owl]

Bunch of bitter ninnies on this site. Who cares if people are giving away free food, sounds f-ing great to my wallet! Boo hoo, the AT ain't what it used to be, get used to it.

Got Soul?


No - Milk! except in October ... No Boo Hooo Here..


Just Woo!

[Freedom Walker]

What wrong with saying " NO THANKS" if your don't want whatever is being offered. They aren't forcing anyone to take the items. Those who can use the help can take it. Those who think they are helping have spend their time and money to be there and major road crossings are hardly wilderness anyway. I'm hungry, will someone bring me a hamburger?

[skooch]

So sad. Anyone can find fault in anything. If you don't like the trail then stay off it. Who the hell is anyone to tell others how to give? F'n hippocrates judge the compassion of others. Golden rule Y'all

[weary]

What wrong with saying " NO THANKS" if your don't want whatever is being offered. ....
Mostly because some of these folks are so pathetic in their attempts at vicariously being involved with the trail, it would be like a slap in the face to say no thanks.

I just accept their stale coffee, cold hot dog, or cheap beer, and as quickly as possible move on.

[Freedom Walker]

Mostly because some of these folks are so pathetic in their attempts at vicariously being involved with the trail, it would be like a slap in the face to say no thanks.

I just accept their stale coffee, cold hot dog, or cheap beer, and as quickly as possible move on.

Thanks for your thoughtfulness today, but I am well supplied and not in need of anything, Please give your food to someone else who is in need. Have a great day! Thats how you do it.

[Jim Adams]

Shuttles to Gatlinburg would be the best magic at NFG though, thats deffinately true.

I do give out beer on the trail. I don't advertise it. If you don't want a beer or a hot dog then don't take it.
I see people on here stating how much this is a disgrace to them yet you want a ride to Gatlinburg? Gatlinburg is about as anti trail ethic as you can get! Either you enjoy the outdoor wilds or you like T-shirt shops, craft shops, poor quality restaraunts and spending money uselessly. Gatlinburg? Really?:mad:
geek

[ScrapIron]

Sure are a lot of snobs around here.

[LDog]

What wrong with saying " NO THANKS" if your don't want whatever is being offered. They aren't forcing anyone to take the items.

Clearly, the concern here is that hikers are like bears, and shelter mice. They have no will, no self control, just the overpowering need to consume calories. Once humans start feeding them, they loose their natural instincts to plan, aquire and carry their own food, and become pests - Yogiing for food from day-hikers, breaking into food bags, showing up at trail-side community chicken roasts uninvited...

Eventually, rangers will be forced to put the more dangerous ones down ...

[nufsaid]

I can't imagine anyone refusing a love offering.

Are you saying that anyone offering you love will not be disappointed?:p

[RITBlake]

It leads to entitlement issues later.

Hit the nail on the head right there. As we passed the NOBO heard in the mid atlantic reason that would be one of the most common adjectives we used.

[Freedom Walker]

Clearly, the concern here is that hikers are like bears, and shelter mice. They have no will, no self control, just the overpowering need to consume calories. Once humans start feeding them, they loose their natural instincts to plan, aquire and carry their own food, and become pests - Yogiing for food from day-hikers, breaking into food bags, showing up at trail-side community chicken roasts uninvited...

Eventually, rangers will be forced to put the more dangerous ones down ...
Problem bears and problem hikers? Is this an example of evolution? Thanks, you brought a smile and laughter to the start my day.

[skooch]

Too funny:)

[ShelterLeopard]

I do give out beer on the trail. I don't advertise it. If you don't want a beer or a hot dog then don't take it.
I see people on here stating how much this is a disgrace to them yet you want a ride to Gatlinburg? Gatlinburg is about as anti trail ethic as you can get! Either you enjoy the outdoor wilds or you like T-shirt shops, craft shops, poor quality restaraunts and spending money uselessly. Gatlinburg? Really?:mad:
geek

+ on this. Gatlinburg was culture shock in the extreme. In a bad way.

[Digger'02]

+ on this. Gatlinburg was culture shock in the extreme. In a bad way.


Yes, Gatlinburg sucks, we all know. Its also one place where most hikers resupply due to its location, its also a very diffucult resupply because the food city is all the way through town.

So as someone who had trouble getting to Food City and back, i think it would be nice to get a ride.

Also, its not just about "saying no to someone trying to be nice", the increase of trail magic over the past 20 years has changed the face of the trail. Much for the good, but overall it changes what hiking the A.T. is like. Its an evolving experience of course, but we need to look at that process before we get too far down a road that we don't want to be on.

[beakerman]

I generally avoid any activity that does not make my pack lighter at the end of the day. so hiker feeds are something I would walk by...ok maybe a cookie or some small sweet thing to nibble on while I walk or after dinner in the evening or a cold drink (beer, soda or even nice ice water).

That being said if folks want to hand out food it doesn't bother me either way..like I said i look forward to cooking and eating every night because it gives me a chance to rest from the walk and also I know my pack is that much lighter in the morning.

[Jim Adams]

+ on this. Gatlinburg was culture shock in the extreme. In a bad way.
Thank you!
I'm beginning to think that most posters on WB have no idea why most thru hikers are out there.
Most thru hikers like the "wilderness" feeling, the sights, the beauty, the walking and the camping but they almost all like the companionship of others and the enjoyment of getting together.
Lets face it...if they were out there for solitude and a true "wilderness experience" they wouldn't be on the AT...it is just a path in the woods between cities.
Lighten up...no one is ruining your "wilderness experience" because THERE IS NO WILDERNESS!:-?

geek

geek

[ShelterLeopard]

I never, ever turn down ice. Or an ice cold drink. THAT is what I truly crave on trail. Cold liquid. Ice cold streams? I could sit there for an hour just so I can drink extra ice cool water.

[Jim Adams]

I never, ever turn down ice. Or an ice cold drink. THAT is what I truly crave on trail. Cold liquid. Ice cold streams? I could sit there for an hour just so I can drink extra ice cool water.
Again, you hit the nail on the head...anything cold to drink is magic.:cool:

geek

[ShelterLeopard]

High five Geek!!! :D

[Digger'02]

Thank you!
I'm beginning to think that most posters on WB have no idea why most thru hikers are out there.
Most thru hikers like the "wilderness" feeling, the sights, the beauty, the walking and the camping but they almost all like the companionship of others and the enjoyment of getting together.
Lets face it...if they were out there for solitude and a true "wilderness experience" they wouldn't be on the AT...it is just a path in the woods between cities.
Lighten up...no one is ruining your "wilderness experience" because THERE IS NO WILDERNESS!:-?

geek

geek

A matter of oponion, maybe there is no wilderness to you, but much of the GA, NC and TN feels like wilderness to me. It is also federally designated Wilderness which counts for something.

"the AT is just a path through the woods between cities".........

While your sentiment is clear, the fact is that there inst really a "city" on the trail. "a path through the woods between roads that lead to little towns?" ......maybe, but you hit the nail on the head, the more everyone steps back and lets housing developments, powerline corridors, 4-lane highways, and yes: gross and over-large trail magic opperations the less "illusion of wilderness" we have, and that is what the A.T. is supposed to be IN MY OPONION.

"The Appalachian Trail is conceived as the backbone of a super reservation and primeval recreation ground covering the length (and width) of the Appalachian Range itself, its ultimate purpose being to extend acquaintance with the scenery and serve as a guide to the understanding of nature." –BENTON MACKAYE

nothin there says trail between cities to me. Lets not give up on Benton's vision.

[Jim Adams]

A matter of oponion, maybe there is no wilderness to you, but much of the GA, NC and TN feels like wilderness to me. It is also federally designated Wilderness which counts for something.

"the AT is just a path through the woods between cities".........

While your sentiment is clear, the fact is that there inst really a "city" on the trail. "a path through the woods between roads that lead to little towns?" ......maybe, but you hit the nail on the head, the more everyone steps back and lets housing developments, powerline corridors, 4-lane highways, and yes: gross and over-large trail magic opperations the less "illusion of wilderness" we have, and that is what the A.T. is supposed to be IN MY OPONION.

"The Appalachian Trail is conceived as the backbone of a super reservation and primeval recreation ground covering the length (and width) of the Appalachian Range itself, its ultimate purpose being to extend acquaintance with the scenery and serve as a guide to the understanding of nature." –BENTON MACKAYE

nothin there says trail between cities to me. Lets not give up on Benton's vision.

The best advice that I have heard on the trail yet was at Low Gap shelter this year when a current thru hiker was worried about getting lost on the AT...B-Man's advice to him was that if you think you are lost, STAY PUT, WAIT TILL DARK THEN WALK OVER TO THE PORCH LIGHT AND KNOCK ON THE DOOR...sadly this is VERY true!...get over the wilderness thing...it is a path in the woods between cities.

geek

[Digger'02]

The best advice that I have heard on the trail yet was at Low Gap shelter this year when a current thru hiker was worried about getting lost on the AT...B-Man's advice to him was that if you think you are lost, STAY PUT, WAIT TILL DARK THEN WALK OVER TO THE PORCH LIGHT AND KNOCK ON THE DOOR...sadly this is VERY true!...get over the wilderness thing...it is a path in the woods between cities.

geek


maybe in PA. we disagree, im done arguing.

[Jim Adams]

Digger'02,
Sorry, I'm not argueing or trying to argue. Most hikers don't carry more than 3-5 days of food and hike from Springer to Suches then to Neels Gap, then to Hiawasee, then to Franklin, then to NOC, then to Fontana, then to Hot Springs, etc, etc, etc....city to city.

geek

[Digger'02]

maybe im not done. thanks for the olive branch and I am sorry this discussion has hijacked the thread a little.

I guess my point is just that Suches Unincorporated is not a city and its not on the trail, its a long way off if you are walking, just like franklin and hiawassee which are both are also a long way off brom being "Cities" (also, you know good and well that you can't hike from Fontana to Hot springs in 5 days unless you are Jen Farr ).

The Trail Corridor itself crosses very few municipal boundaries in the south, which means that big and frequent trail magic opperations can change the character of the corridor. I think that is something we can agree on.

ANYWAY!!!! we thru hiked the same year! when did you summit?

(thanks again for calming us down, i enjoy this much more as a cordial debate)

[Digger'02]

maybe im not done. thanks for the olive branch and I am sorry this discussion has hijacked the thread a little.

I guess my point is just that Suches Unincorporated is not a city and its not on the trail, its a long way off if you are walking, just like franklin and hiawassee which are both are also a long way off brom being "Cities" (also, you know good and well that you can't hike from Fontana to Hot springs in 5 days unless you are Jen Farr ).

The Trail Corridor itself crosses very few municipal boundaries in the south, which means that big and frequent trail magic opperations can change the character of the corridor. I think that is something we can agree on.

ANYWAY!!!! we thru hiked the same year! when did you summit?

(thanks again for calming us down, i enjoy this much more as a cordial debate)

Maybe you can hike from fontana to Hot springs in a week....but that would be a heck of a week and a heavy slog up shuckstack!!

[Jim Adams]

Digger'02,
Yeah, I saw your '02 and wondered myself.LOL
I started on St. Patrick's Day and summited on 9/11.

geek

[brian039]

A matter of oponion, maybe there is no wilderness to you, but much of the GA, NC and TN feels like wilderness to me. It is also federally designated Wilderness which counts for something.

"the AT is just a path through the woods between cities".........

While your sentiment is clear, the fact is that there inst really a "city" on the trail. "a path through the woods between roads that lead to little towns?" ......maybe, but you hit the nail on the head, the more everyone steps back and lets housing developments, powerline corridors, 4-lane highways, and yes: gross and over-large trail magic opperations the less "illusion of wilderness" we have, and that is what the A.T. is supposed to be IN MY OPONION.

"The Appalachian Trail is conceived as the backbone of a super reservation and primeval recreation ground covering the length (and width) of the Appalachian Range itself, its ultimate purpose being to extend acquaintance with the scenery and serve as a guide to the understanding of nature." –BENTON MACKAYE

nothin there says trail between cities to me. Lets not give up on Benton's vision.

http://wilderdom.com/vignettes/appalachian/AppalachianParts.htm

Benton Mackaye's vision was to connect communities with a trail.

[weary]

The best advice that I have heard on the trail yet was at Low Gap shelter this year when a current thru hiker was worried about getting lost on the AT...B-Man's advice to him was that if you think you are lost, STAY PUT, WAIT TILL DARK THEN WALK OVER TO THE PORCH LIGHT AND KNOCK ON THE DOOR...sadly this is VERY true!...get over the wilderness thing...it is a path in the woods between cities.

geek
Well, that just isn't so. There are many, many hundreds of miles of trail, at least a thousand miles, where no porch lights can be seen, as you well know. My question is why do you seem to be concurring with the exaggeration (lie)?

Weary

[rickb]

Well, that just isn't so. There are many, many hundreds of miles of trail, at least a thousand miles, where no porch lights can be seen, as you well know. My question is why do you seem to be concurring with the exaggeration (lie)?

Weary


I think the trend among some to dismiss the wild side of the AT is unfortunate.

By perpetuating the false image of the Trail as just some kind of suburban park, all sorts of encroachments become more palatable. Whether these be sounds from a race track, over-engineered shelters, or construction within the view shed, what's the big deal? After all the AT is not a Wilderness!

As for Trail Magic, that's a tough one. Apart from the often discussed distinction between preplanned magic vs. spontaneous interaction between strangers, I think other factors come into play. To my way of thinking there is a big difference between a local coming to the AT to greet people passing through his community (or back yard) and RickB traveling hundreds of miles to the Trail to find hikers in the middle of their walks. Both might be preplanned, but I see them as worlds apart.

I also think that the sheer quantity of preplanned Trail magic is important to think about. Think of it this way-- if there was a hotdog stand and group of great people sharing stories, cheering you on and giving you stuff at every road crossing, that would really suck, right? Even thought its at a road crossing, right?

While that's something we will never see, the fleeting thought that an ever increasing number of hikers might think that would be most excellent worries me.

[Morel]

I left Springer on March 13th for a section hike. The first night had about 20 people at Hawk Shelter. Which I expected since it was Spring Break. By time we arrived at Plumorchard that Sleeps 14 there were a total of 8 people there. Alot of the time we only saw the same people who were thru hiking.

As far as trail magic. I don't know a church group serving burgers at Neels Gap I thought was a nice gesture- I could of bought Pizza at the store. The other places we recieved trail majic- were a drink, that might come with a cookie.

By time we arrived in Franklin NC. Hikers were on differnt schedule because of re-supply and zero days.

I found it to be a wonderful experience. Maybe not the wild wilderness I enjoyed in Northern Ontario or Quebec in the past. However I was also on a footpath in the Eastern United States.

[AeroGuyDC]

I'm not gonna knock trail magic....nor will I refuse it. It wouldn't be "magic" if I didn't need it or want it, right?

My first taste of trail magic was a 6 inch sub from Subway as I passed through Dalghren campground. That sandwich couldn't have been given to me at better time or place anywhere on this entire planet. And I don't even like black olives.

[Jim Adams]

Well, that just isn't so. There are many, many hundreds of miles of trail, at least a thousand miles, where no porch lights can be seen, as you well know. My question is why do you seem to be concurring with the exaggeration (lie)?

Weary

Weary,
I was just using that to point out that nowhere on the AT is there true wilderness.

geek

[sheepdog]

Weary,
I was just using that to point out that nowhere on the AT is there true wilderness.

geek
true, the AT is a recreation area

[russb]

Weary,
I was just using that to point out that nowhere on the AT is there true wilderness.

geek

How do you define "true wilderness"?

How large must an area of land be to be considered "true wilderness" in your view?

According US Wilderness Act:

lands designated for preservation and protection in their natural condition

an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man

generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable

has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation

shall be devoted to the public purposes of recreation, scenic, scientific, educational, conservation and historic use


While I do not expect all to subscribe to the fed's "definition", it is at least a starting point for discussion. Personally I can wilderness in even my local parks. As I do not have a preset acreage threshold. For me there is no "welcome to the real wilderness" line at some arbitrary distance from the work of man. For me real wilderness can be found in the smallest of areas as long as I am able to let go of the rest of the world for the time being.

[sheepdog]

How do you define "true wilderness"?

How large must an area of land be to be considered "true wilderness" in your view?

According US Wilderness Act:

lands designated for preservation and protection in their natural condition

an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man

generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable

has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation

shall be devoted to the public purposes of recreation, scenic, scientific, educational, conservation and historic use


While I do not expect all to subscribe to the fed's "definition", it is at least a starting point for discussion. Personally I can wilderness in even my local parks. As I do not have a preset acreage threshold. For me there is no "welcome to the real wilderness" line at some arbitrary distance from the work of man. For me real wilderness can be found in the smallest of areas as long as I am able to let go of the rest of the world for the time being.
Those highlighted in bold seems to make it fail the wilderness test. Seems like mostly people from the city consider the AT wilderness.

[Mags]

The AT may not have true "wilderness"..but it does have WILDness.

Being on top of Franconia Ridge in a pelting rain storm felt as remote, wild, and exhilarating as anything I've felt out West.

Is it wilderness? No. But being in the Barren-Chairback Range of Maine and gazing out at the expanse of woods and lakes below me is something I ache to return to again. There may have been hunting cabins below..I don't know. All I do know is that the feelings was remote. It felt wild.


The AT is far from a suburban stroll. It may not have wilderness..but it has wildness in spades.

I have been to places that have only seen a few people a year. Mountains with register entries that have not been updated in several years.

But few memories top being at a quiet lake shore in Maine and seeing the last light of the setting sun. Or being amazed at how beautiful and rural the AT in New Jersey felt. Or sitting quietly by a stream somewhere in Virginia in woods and not seeing anyone and just being left with my own thoughts.

I won't get into how 'true' wilderness is defined. All I know is that AT felt wild as times and I am thankful for the months spent walking it.

[russb]

All I know is that AT felt wild as times and I am thankful for the months spent walking it.

This sums up my point. Wilderness in reality is manifested by perception.

[Jim Adams]

Yes, it has wild sections and as Mags points out "I am thankful for the months spent walking it."
My local white water river has a section 11 miles long with no houses, buildings, roads or business along it. The government would not designate it a wild river for protection because it has a bicycle trail in the woods along it.
I have been roughly 450 miles from civilization and gone 27 days w/o seeing another person...that is wilderness. I LOVE the AT!...it changed my life and I love the quiet times, the nature, the smells and the constant changes day to day but it is just a path through a narrow corridor of unpopulated woods until you come to a road.

geek

[WingedMonkey]

just a path through a narrow corridor of unpopulated woods until you come to a road.Are you the "Geek" that was passing out beer and hot dogs at Gooch Gap three weeks ago? Do you feel a hiker can't make it past a road crossing 16 miles into the AT without being fed?
Just asking.

[Jim Adams]

Are you the "Geek" that was passing out beer and hot dogs at Gooch Gap three weeks ago? Do you feel a hiker can't make it past a road crossing 16 miles into the AT without being fed?
Just asking.

Yep, that was me.

No, I have never felt that hikers "need" fed, but I do enjoy meeting the new group of thru hikers every year and if they want a hot dog or a beer then they are welcome to it. If they don't then that is fine too. The distance into the woods or the distance from a road crossing has nothing to do with it. HYOH is the way I have always been but I find very few who aren't thankful for a hot dog or a beer or just conversation. Low Gap tends to be about a week into their thru hike and the point where alot of them are saying to themselves "what did I get myself into". They seem to leave there with alot more confidence in their hike.:cool:

geek

[Pedaling Fool]

I don’t accept “trail magic” anymore. Actually I stopped after only a few times of participating in 2006, when I was first introduced to this practice. I refused to accept a ride to someone’s house that was serving everything a hiker could want -- eggs, pancakes, sweet buns, fruits, jucies… I just got sick of being interrupted in my hike; I really do believe “trail magic” is more for the giver than the recipient.

I subsequently talked to a few of the hikers that accepted the ride/“trail magic” and it turns out that they had to listen to a sermon by some pretty serious holy rollers before being fed – I thought that was funny.

Like I said, I now do not participate in “trail magic”, but when I say, “no thanks”, that’s not the end of it. People ask me, “are you sure?”, “it’s free.”… It can be very annoying and it continues when I meet back up with the other hikers and they ask me more questions, trying to understand why I don’t want it. It’s kind of like the same experience when a drunk(s) wants you to drink with them, as if they can’t enjoy themselves unless you sit there and drink with them – freakin’ pathetic.

When you say, no, you’re looked at as some kind of freak, really annoying. However, I understand that this practice is here to stay and I’m a minority in the AT community WRT this issue, so I won’t really debate it anymore. I’ll just have to resign myself to appearing as a weirdo when I refuse “trail magic”. An example of AT’ers not accepting diversity in opinion when that opinion seems to be so strange, in their view, thus they treat minorities, such as me, with disdain.

[WingedMonkey]

Yep, that was me.

No, I have never felt that hikers "need" fed, but I do enjoy meeting the new group of thru hikers every year and if they want a hot dog or a beer then they are welcome to it. If they don't then that is fine too. The distance into the woods or the distance from a road crossing has nothing to do with it. HYOH is the way I have always been but I find very few who aren't thankful for a hot dog or a beer or just conversation. Low Gap tends to be about a week into their thru hike and the point where alot of them are saying to themselves "what did I get myself into". They seem to leave there with alot more confidence in their hike.:cool:

geek

Thank you for an honest answer.

[Freedom Walker]

Yep, that was me.

No, I have never felt that hikers "need" fed, but I do enjoy meeting the new group of thru hikers every year and if they want a hot dog or a beer then they are welcome to it. If they don't then that is fine too. The distance into the woods or the distance from a road crossing has nothing to do with it. HYOH is the way I have always been but I find very few who aren't thankful for a hot dog or a beer or just conversation. Low Gap tends to be about a week into their thru hike and the point where alot of them are saying to themselves "what did I get myself into". They seem to leave there with alot more confidence in their hike.:cool:

geek

Jim Adams and others who wish to provide trail magic do so with the idea that they may be helping a discouraged thru hiker at a time when he may be considering quitting. They do so at the risk of offending those who may choose to be left alone. My question is this, if only 15 to 20% of thru-hikers finish each year, would that number be lower if there were no trail magic?

[weary]

Jim Adams and others who wish to provide trail magic do so with the idea that they may be helping a discouraged thru hiker at a time when he may be considering quitting. They do so at the risk of offending those who may choose to be left alone. My question is this, if only 15 to 20% of thru-hikers finish each year, would that number be lower if there were no trail magic?
If you read Jim's message carefully, he provides "trail magic" because he enjoys doing so, and by offering beers and hotdogs he gets to enjoy meeting and talking to new groups of hikers each year. So called "trail magic" is a way for many folks to vicariously experience long distance hiking without the bother of actually walking.

Trail magic contributes to the party atmosphere that has replaced enjoying nature as a reason for hiking. It's my guess that such "charity" decreases the percentage of hikers that actually finish the trail each year.

Among the images that stick in my mind from my 1993 long walk was the guy whose junk car with bald tires was parked at a trail crossing in Georgia. He insisted I take a coffee and a breakfast roll, while he told me that this was the way he contributed to society.

[emerald]

I'm not convinced the percentage of hikers completing the A.T. has increased over the years. I would have thought the many advantages hikers today enjoy ought to have had more of an impact.

Maybe in the end, gear, pack weight and services don't contribute as much as we might be inclined to believe or they are offset by other less tangible factors that are not as readily measured.

[Jim Adams]

I'm not convinced the percentage of hikers completing the A.T. has increased over the years. I would have thought the many advantages hikers today enjoy ought to have had more of an impact.

Maybe in the end, gear, pack weight and services don't contribute as much as we might be inclined to believe or they are offset by other less tangible factors that are not as readily measured.

Finishing or rather completing the AT is mostly mental...good food, bad food, heavy gear, light gear, more resupplies, more hotels, more hostels has been in the frey for years. The difference is in being smart enough to listen to your body and not hurt yourself and the will power and inner self to be able to push yourself to finish even when things aren't perfect. It is more mental than anything else. A 10# pack, great food, tons of money and perfect weather might make it easier but without the correct mind set...you are going home.
If my hot dog helps you good, if my beer helps you good, if you don't want it that's fine but if you need to sit an talk about what's going on in your head and body then I am all ears. If my talking or advice will help your day on the trail then great...we both leave feeling good. The hot dog and beer are just foods and possibly an icebreaker....any mental help is the "magic":-?

geek

[The Counselor]

If you don't want people, gifts and the like, stop whining and go where there are less people, gifts and the like. There are options to suit all tastes.

[emerald]

Perhaps you miss the point of ATC's efforts and this thread. The A.T. is a managed recreational experience and this discussion is a part of the process.


If my hot dog helps you good, if my beer helps you good, if you don't want it, that's fine, but if you need to sit and talk about what's going on in your head and body, then I am all ears. If my talking or advice will help your day on the trail, great, we both leave feeling good.


I have provided some of the same kind of support myself and benefited from it too, but we have reached the point when so many have hiked the A.T. there is an excess of individuals able to dispense this kind of encouragement. The clutter it creates on the trail and in cyberspace is changing something we all love.

There may be eight thousand living 2000 milers and about another 500 are being added each year. If we all got out on the A.T. at the same time to offer a bit of magic, there would be one of us every 1/4 mile.

Consequently, I don't go out of my way to provide this service. When I am on the A.T. and it seems welcome and helpful, I do, but I only provide information and usually only to hikers with whom I have connected in some other way on the trail or here previously.

Most of the people who provide what has come to be known as trail magic are not providing an essential service and some travel long distances to engage in this activity. They would do more to become involved in their own communities and address genuine needs closer to home.

[johnnybgood]

I'm not convinced the percentage of hikers completing the A.T. has increased over the years. I would have thought the many advantages hikers today enjoy ought to have had more of an impact.

Maybe in the end, gear, pack weight and services don't contribute as much as we might be inclined to believe or they are offset by other less tangible factors that are not as readily measured.
I concur . That unmeasurable intangible is mental toughness.

There needs to be a high level of mental fortitude to go the distance with a traditional thru hike and not everyone has that .

[The Counselor]

Perhaps you miss the point of ATC's efforts and this thread. The A.T. is a managed recreational experience and this discussion is a part of the process.

I just hear folks lashing out a bit against people handing out freebies and the simplest way for those folks to address it is to hike where there's less of it. I would assume there's not a thing the ATC can do to stop people from offering free stuff to hikers, true? The AT runs long the most populated part of America compared to other long trails. It is what it is.

[Jim Adams]

I concur . That unmeasurable intangible is mental toughness.

There needs to be a high level of mental fortitude to go the distance with a traditional thru hike and not everyone has that .

Says it all...I just took too many words to do so...nice entry!

geek

[WingedMonkey]

If you don't want people, gifts and the like, stop whining and go where there are less people, gifts and the like. There are options to suit all tastes.

Discussions and opinions, agreements and disagreements are hardly whining. It would be like I told you if you don't like the subject of the thread don't read it. Then all threads wolud be just one line.

:sun

[trailangelbronco]

If Robert Redford ever gets around to filming the Bill Bryson "Fiction" movie, then the AT as we know it will all be screwed. 200,000 will try the next season. Starbucks will put Coffee Carts at road crossings and they will probably start requiring paid permits to even get on it.

[emerald]

I don't think this movie will happen, but if you are concerned, maybe you should begin a letter writing campaign.

Regulating user levels on the A.T. is already happening and will become more common especially as it relates to overnight stays. It is inevitable and will be necessary. People should begin getting accustomed to the idea.

[Bearpaw]

Having hiked the Pinhoti, Benton MacKaye, Foothills, and Bartram Trails, (all of them within a couple of hours of the AT) I can say I've never experienced any man-made magic on them. But there was plenty of trail magic out there.

Plenty of options in the southeast besides the AT.

[emerald]

I just hear folks lashing out a bit against people handing out freebies and the simplest way for those folks to address it is to hike where there's less of it.

What folks? A.T. managers and enthusiasts who are trying to herd cats? The A.T. tends to attract people who value the freedom to do as they wish.


I would assume there's not a thing the ATC can do to stop people from offering free stuff to hikers, true? The AT runs along the most populated part of America compared to other long trails. It is what it is.

You claim to understand, yet you post this? It should not come as a surprise where population densities are highest issues come to a head earlier because competition for limited resources leads to an increase in their valuation and more careful management of them.

Of course, there is something A.T. managers can do! They are attempting to influence behavior without creating an oppressive regulatory environment everyone would resent and can't be forced upon those who support it.

[The Counselor]

Not looking to pick a fight here. I was commenting on some of the posts here, not on ATC workers. Appears we see some of the attitudes differently. No biggie.

[weary]

Not looking to pick a fight here. I was commenting on some of the posts here, not on ATC workers. Appears we see some of the attitudes differently. No biggie.
These comments represent a misunderstanding of the trail and the trail regulations. From the beginning ATC has been an advocate for the trail, and has worked to have consistent decisions up and down the trail. ATC has very few employees. ATC fostered development of the trail during the early days, fought to have the federal government purchase the land needed for the AT to be a continuous trail, and then contracted with the National Park Service, to continue it's previous role as a coordinator of the 30 clubs that do the basic work.

The only people with control of "trail magic" at public road crossings are the states, and in a few instances, perhaps, the local communities, that own the roads. Control of trail magic offered within the trail corridor itself rests with the park service, the USFS, and in a few cases the states and towns that own the land traversed by the trail.

I suspect that none of these agencies and organizations spend much time dealing with "trail magic." If the situation is to be improved it requires education of those who indulge in the practice. Which is why I speak up occasionally to the consternation of many on and off WhiteBlaze.

[LDog]

The A.T. is a managed recreational experience

Yikes! I don't think I want to have my recreational experience managed ...

[Digger'02]

Yikes! I don't think I want to have my recreational experience managed ...

Good point, I think the ATC does as much as it can to be "hands off". while it needs to be regulated at some level to keep it wildish, safe and in good condition, the ATC isn't too in-your-face IMHO. I think that is a tough line to walk.

I think that Trail Magic is something that needs to be managed in a passive way, that is; present the isssues provide some guidlines for "good trail magic' and let the chips fall where they may. again though IMHO, its getting out of hand.

HYOH to me means HYO HIKE not HYO RV at a road crossing. Making yourself that visible, and especially giving out alcohol has an affect on plenty of folks who simply can't avoid it. Maybe its a little change to some peoples hike, but after 10 roadcrossings with a simmilar set up, I think it has the possibliity of changing the trail in a pretty big way and to me.

But i would have taken one of the beers for sure. I know I would. Hypocrite or internally torn? little of collumn A little of collumn B.

[Bearbag]

Guess i should not have gone hours out of my way last weekend to leave cold drinks. I thought it would be a good thing to do. I know i GREATLY appreciated trail magic i received. I only had good intentions.

[Pedaling Fool]

Guess i should not have gone hours out of my way last weekend to leave cold drinks. I thought it would be a good thing to do. I know i GREATLY appreciated trail magic i received. I only had good intentions.
How did you go "hours out of [your] way"? Did you drive a car at your own expense just to drop off some sodas?

[Bearbag]

I sure did.

[Pedaling Fool]

That's fine, just sick of hearing how America is addicted to fossil fuel and that America needs to switch to a more environmentally-friendly energy source from people that readily give money to big oil just to hand out a few sodas to a bunch of people that really don't need it.

It's not America that's addicted to oil, it's us. It's just funny how many people talk badly of America's addiction, yet they are just as quick to drive all over the place. And the prius-type drivers do more than make up for their great fuel efficient cars.

Don't we love our cars.

P.S. I don't know if this applies to you, but it definitely applies to many who do TM and those that are quick to slackpack and do other things not needed (just a want), yet those actions need much energy consumption.

The truth can really suck sometimes.

[Bearbag]

and i drive a big old gas guzzling made in USA vehicle. Drill baby drill!

[10-K]

There was someone making Belgium waffles and ice cream sundaes at Allen's Gap this weekend so I heard... I didn't go that far to verify it but several (more than 5) hikers I passed were raving about it.

[10-K]

P.S. I don't know if this applies to you, but it definitely applies to many who do TM and those that are quick to slackpack and do other things not needed (just a want), yet those actions need much energy consumption.


.. but I like to slackpack.

[Pedaling Fool]

and i drive a big old gas guzzling made in USA vehicle. Drill baby drill!


.. but I like to slackpack.
That's ok, you two have been logged into my files, so no complaining about the evils of cars and fossil fuels or AGW or...:D;)

[V Eight]

That's fine, just sick of hearing how America is addicted to fossil fuel and that America needs to switch to a more environmentally-friendly energy source from people that readily give money to big oil just to hand out a few sodas to a bunch of people that really don't need it.

It's not America that's addicted to oil, it's us. It's just funny how many people talk badly of America's addiction, yet they are just as quick to drive all over the place. And the prius-type drivers do more than make up for their great fuel efficient cars.

Don't we love our cars.

P.S. I don't know if this applies to you, but it definitely applies to many who do TM and those that are quick to slackpack and do other things not needed (just a want), yet those actions need much energy consumption.

The truth can really suck sometimes.

I knew it!
All this Trail Magic is just one of "Big Oil's" many plots to gain world domination:rolleyes:

[the goat]

I was amazed to read the amount of trail magic this year. One hiker described 5 acts of trail magic in his first 5 days. It's not only at road crossings but seems to be at every shelter in Georgia. Years ago I used to be one of the few people to give out food on a weekday in March. Now I feel I may be ruining the experience. I think I may have joined the "you should provide for yourself and skip trail magic" group. Never thought that would happen:(


that's not trail magic. they're just feeds. hikers have food in their packs. they don't need to be fed. especially down south

true, true. if you want real trail magic, hike southbound, it happens far, far less frequently.

i don't think i'd want to thru hike with a cookout at every road crossing & shelter.

[Pedaling Fool]

I knew it!
All this Trail Magic is just one of "Big Oil's" many plots to gain world domination:rolleyes:
No plots; no conspriacies. Our individual wants require energy use so there's no need make the market fertile; it may not be a renewable energy source, but it is a renewable thirst. What hikers do is just one drop in the bucket, but our drop is just as dirty as everyone elses. We don't get brownie points for being hikers.

What's that sayin', Death by a thousand paper cuts...:sun

[Freedom Walker]

[QUOTE=john gault;1140360]No plots; no conspriacies. Our individual wants require energy use so there's no need make the market fertile; it may not be a renewable energy source, but it is a renewable thirst. What hikers do is just one drop in the bucket, but our drop is just as dirty as everyone elses. We don't get brownie points for being hikers.

With the price of gas continuing to rise, our gasoline consumption will drop. Mine has already. Hate it or not we need energy to get to work, and to drive to the Appalachian Trail. I guess that is one way to lower traffic on the AT.

[weary]

and i drive a big old gas guzzling made in USA vehicle. Drill baby drill!
That's certainly the prevailing view. Whatever is easy now, the hell with the future.

[Nearly Normal]

This is awesome.

[Bearbag]

No plots; no conspriacies. Our individual wants require energy use so there's no need make the market fertile; it may not be a renewable energy source, but it is a renewable thirst. What hikers do is just one drop in the bucket, but our drop is just as dirty as everyone elses. We don't get brownie points for being hikers.

What's that sayin', Death by a thousand paper cuts...:sun



Huh???????? I guess im too drunk to smell this chicken.

[Options]

Nothing says you can't just keep on truckin. Course you should smile and wave as you pass, that's just being "Southern" of course. Some folks even decide to skip the shelters. Hey man it's a hike, everyone should just walk their own style. : )

[sheepdog]

This is awesome.
hahahahahhahahahhaha:D

[Pedaling Fool]

Nothing says you can't just keep on truckin.
That's what I do, keep on truckin':D

I don’t accept “trail magic” anymore. Actually I stopped after only a few times of participating in 2006, when I was first introduced to this practice. I refused to accept a ride to someone’s house that was serving everything a hiker could want -- eggs, pancakes, sweet buns, fruits, jucies… I just got sick of being interrupted in my hike; I really do believe “trail magic” is more for the giver than the recipient.

I subsequently talked to a few of the hikers that accepted the ride/“trail magic” and it turns out that they had to listen to a sermon by some pretty serious holy rollers before being fed – I thought that was funny.

Like I said, I now do not participate in “trail magic”, but when I say, “no thanks”, that’s not the end of it. People ask me, “are you sure?”, “it’s free.”… It can be very annoying and it continues when I meet back up with the other hikers and they ask me more questions, trying to understand why I don’t want it. It’s kind of like the same experience when a drunk(s) wants you to drink with them, as if they can’t enjoy themselves unless you sit there and drink with them – freakin’ pathetic.

When you say, no, you’re looked at as some kind of freak, really annoying. However, I understand that this practice is here to stay and I’m a minority in the AT community WRT this issue, so I won’t really debate it anymore. I’ll just have to resign myself to appearing as a weirdo when I refuse “trail magic”. An example of AT’ers not accepting diversity in opinion when that opinion seems to be so strange, in their view, thus they treat minorities, such as me, with disdain.

[weary]

That's what I do, keep on truckin':D
Well, I must confess that when someone offers me something sweet, on a hot, or on a warm -- or cold -- day, I tend to accept. Not with any pride. Just with a recognition, will power has its limits.

But from time to time I refuse the offered goodies. I wish more would do so. It is truly destructive of what the trail should be -- and used to be.

[RamblinRob]

Long time lurker - probably cranky from not hiking lately, but this topic gets to me as a dedicated provider of treats and vittles.

So long as people are free to walk the AT, people will be free to provide trail magic/charity/feeds along the way. Some of us enjoy doing so. Hikers are free to refuse.

Some will choose to spend their time and money on the trail, some will choose to spend their time and money feeding strangers.

People who believe that their personal conception of the A.T. experience is the only one valid for everyone fits the three major terms that float around "trail magic" threads - 'entitled', 'pathetic' and 'preachy'.

[CrumbSnatcher]

theres a guy on ebay seeking the ultimate trail magic
only starting at .99cents, you could win the chance to pay for his thruhike
looked up appalachian trail on ebay and couldn't believe it!
i usually just worked and saved up money for my trips

[rickb]

So long as people are free to walk the AT, people will be free to provide trail magic/charity/feeds along the way. Some of us enjoy doing so. Hikers are free to refuse.

But everyone has a right to an opinion on this subject, correct?

And while hikers are free to refuse the bounty brought by others, it will change their hikes in some small way whether they take it or not, no?

Personally, I don't want to bring change to others on the AT who are in the middle of their hikes. I still think the Trail has enough to offer that RickB handing out beer and burgers won't be a net benefit to many (most) who I would meet. And I have been practicing my stories long enough that they would surely impress.

But in the end its not any one person's good intentions that will have any measurable impact on the character of OTHERS thru hikes. It is the collective weight of a many people's actions who might have an impact.

Is my opinion valid for everyone? No. But then again I won't be driving my car hundred of miles or more to interject/impact anyone else's journey (for good or bad).

[skooch]

You're showing our age Options. "Keep on Truckin." Lets resurect the Tshirt

[weary]

Long time lurker - probably cranky from not hiking lately, but this topic gets to me as a dedicated provider of treats and vittles.

So long as people are free to walk the AT, people will be free to provide trail magic/charity/feeds along the way. Some of us enjoy doing so. Hikers are free to refuse.

Some will choose to spend their time and money on the trail, some will choose to spend their time and money feeding strangers.

People who believe that their personal conception of the A.T. experience is the only one valid for everyone fits the three major terms that float around "trail magic" threads - 'entitled', 'pathetic' and 'preachy'.
This is what bothers me the most about trail magic, so called. The practicioners don't seem to realize that it has nothing whatever to do with whether a hiker stops and partakes or not.

Nor is anyone questioning your right to do so. It's not against the law, at least in most towns, on private property and at most road crossings.

But the practice is essentially selfish, changing the nature of the trail itself, in order to achieve a few feel good hours. Those who think otherwise, thruhiker or no, simply fail to understand what makes the trail unique.

"Remote for detachment, narrow for chosen company, winding for leisure, lonely for contemplation, the Appalachian Trail beckons not merely north and
south but upward to the body, mind and soul of man," said Harold Allen, one of the early AT volunteers. His wisdom was quoted by Myron Avery at the 1952 ATC conference, shortly before his death.

[Jim Adams]

It just seems like some of you just don't get it. Times change and so does the trail. Face it. It isn't the 1930's, 40's, 50's,60's, 70's, 80's or 90's. It is 2011 and the world is different now. You want to keep the trail from changing? Trail Magic in ANY form is not the problem. Stop building housing plans in the country. Stop building roads where they are certainly not needed. STOP BUILDING WAL-MARTS!
The people of this country build civilization closer and closer to the trail every year then complain about too many people out there doing the wrong (untraditional) things on the trail. If you want the trail to be as wilderness or just as isolated OR just rural as it was in the beginning...you would have to move it to Canada. I admire the loyalty of all on this thread arguing about rights and wrongs but to all, realize...times are changing and so is the trail whether you want it to or not.
In 1990 I remember crossing 1 old grown in logging road in the 100 Mile Wilderness.
In 2002 I watched several of my fellow hikers slack pack the entire section. The most "wilderness" of the AT is NO LONGER WILDERNESS. Hot dogs, burgers and beers won't change that for the better or worse...it is just how our country progresses.

geek

[XCskiNYC]

Bill Bryson says that when Earl Shaffer did his first thru more of the AT was on road walks and there were more backcountry general stores and small restaurants where Shaffer could eat than in the present day. It seems that the trend is, as more and more small businesses lose out to chains and as the AT Conservancy succeeds in consolidating the trail corridor, the trail keeps getting further and further from businesses that can provide sustenance to hikers.

This isn't a reference to trail towns. They're probably not going away any time soon. But as car ownership becomes closer and closer to 100 percent in rural areas, it becomes ubiquitous for people to drive to far away commercial strips where they likely will patronize a chain fast-food restaurant. There's no market for small-scale rural businesses anymore, no more, or far fewer, of the little stores people run out of the front room of their houses.

Does anybody know the quote I mean from Bryson? Page number?

If Bryson is right, the people who put on feeds might just be filling a need that was once satisfied by the small businesses close to the route of the AT in the 40's and 50's.

[LDog]

Things just ain't how they used to be ... and never were.:rolleyes:

[weary]

It just seems like some of you just don't get it. Times change and so does the trail. Face it. It isn't the 1930's, 40's, 50's,60's, 70's, 80's or 90's. It is 2011 and the world is different now. You want to keep the trail from changing? Trail Magic in ANY form is not the problem. Stop building housing plans in the country. Stop building roads where they are certainly not needed. STOP BUILDING WAL-MARTS!
The people of this country build civilization closer and closer to the trail every year then complain about too many people out there doing the wrong (untraditional) things on the trail. If you want the trail to be as wilderness or just as isolated OR just rural as it was in the beginning...you would have to move it to Canada. I admire the loyalty of all on this thread arguing about rights and wrongs but to all, realize...times are changing and so is the trail whether you want it to or not.
In 1990 I remember crossing 1 old grown in logging road in the 100 Mile Wilderness.
In 2002 I watched several of my fellow hikers slack pack the entire section. The most "wilderness" of the AT is NO LONGER WILDERNESS. Hot dogs, burgers and beers won't change that for the better or worse...it is just how our country progresses. geek
I'm certainly aware that times change, but it's not always progress. I can't control the building of Walmarts, though I got a few White Blazers upset by pointing out that all things at Walmart are not as inexpensive as they may think. Nor can I change population trends, or the desire of people to live in the suburbs.

But I still find it useful to build trails and work to make land available for the public to use. I can't donate much money because I don't have much money, though my wife and I manage to donate to our two land trusts from time to time. One land trust seeks to provide buffers for the trail in Maine. The Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust has purchased the summit ridge of Abraham one of the highest mountains of Maine, and part of the slopes of Saddleback. We are working to preserve other land in the high peaks section of western Maine.

Are you suggesting geek that because we can't provide buffers for all of the AT in Maine, protecting one mountain was unwise. That we need to recognize change is inevitable. That the so called wilderness is no more. That we should just recognize Maine's woods industry is dying. That we should let the condominiums take over.

I have found that just speaking out sometimes helps a little. One of the parking areas that serves one of our town land trust preserves was getting trashed. I posted a sign saying simply "Carry in, Carry out." People laughed. Don't you know society has changed? they asked. "No one will pay attention." But they did. Litter declined 90 percent.

I don't anticipate slowing the growth of unwise trail magic, by 90 percent, or by any percent. We'll just have to see.

[Jim Adams]

Weary,
No, I'm not argueing any of those things. I realize that you can't control urban sprawl or Wal-Marts but my point is that there is no longer wilderness along the trail. Protecting the trail is a wonderful thing but you must realize that you are not protecting wilderness, just a wooded pathway. Change will always happen and usually not for the better.
I remember seeing ski resorts, small towns and an airport from the AT while on the Bigelow summits yet you had the plan of energy producing windmills in the distance stopped because they might ruin the view. It wasn't a wal-mart or a housing plan, it was something that would have benefitted the production of cleaner power in our country but it was voted down due to "not in my back yard". You did not protect the "wilderness view" by stopping them, there was already development in multiple areas in that viewing area. That certainly wasn't progress yet you think that trail magic is another detriment to the trail. It is a wooded path...I am so glad and feel so fortunate that I got to hike it as much as I have but it is just a wooded path.
Katahdin is one of the most beautiful mountains on the entire trail. Baxter is totally protected and rightly so but drive 5 miles down the road and you are surrounded by miles long stacks of cut timber and logged areas. It is a thin strip of woods with a trail in it.
In 2002 I was at a shelter in the 100 Mile Wilderness. A new shelter near a stream, possibly Logan Brook or the next one northbound. It was beautiful, peaceful and a stunning site for a shelter until an hour before dark while watching for moose that Tom Petty came blasting out of the woods somewhere across the stream and the sound of car engines. I'm sorry that you don't see my feelings on this and obviously your feelings are also strong because you live and work to help the trail in Maine and I do appreciate all of the work that you have done to help the AT. I admire the effort you have put forth throughout your life helping this trail and it's organizations but until you can show me anywhere on the trail that is true wilderness I refuse to believe that trail magic is hurting it.

geek

[Jim Adams]

BTW, I am not usually much for change myself...I hate Wal-Mart...the destruction of American Mom and Pop businesses.

geek

[Trailbender]

BTW, I am not usually much for change myself...I hate Wal-Mart...the destruction of American Mom and Pop businesses.

geek

Yeah, capitalism sucks, but it is the least fail of all the economic systems, the best of the worst, in a sense. People don't need 500 styles of underwear or car to choose from, that is a waste of resources.

[So Far]

true, true. if you want real trail magic, hike southbound, it happens far, far less frequently.

i don't think i'd want to thru hike with a cookout at every road crossing & shelter.

GA-ME 2010 and I didn't have trail magic at every road crossing/shelter. Hiker feed or trail magic....WHOOOOOOO gives a F#@K what u call it! IT'S HELP. A huge THANKS for everyone who helped me.

[WingedMonkey]

[QUOTE=XCskiNYC;1142235]Bill Bryson says /QUOTE]

Bill Bryson is a genius at humorist writing, as a thru hiker he was a failure. I don't take much advise from him about hiking but he is a good laugh.

:sun

[RamblinRob]

This is what bothers me the most about trail magic, so called. The practicioners don't seem to realize that it has nothing whatever to do with whether a hiker stops and partakes or not.

Nor is anyone questioning your right to do so. It's not against the law, at least in most towns, on private property and at most road crossings.

But the practice is essentially selfish, changing the nature of the trail itself, in order to achieve a few feel good hours. Those who think otherwise, thruhiker or no, simply fail to understand what makes the trail unique.

I've spent several hundred hours selfishly changing the nature of the trail. I do trail maintenance. I also enjoy a few ice cold beers when I'm done, and often being miles from the road, I must bring my own. If I'm lugging my tools, the extra weight is marginal to attach a twelve pack in a small cooler with a couple of frozen water bottles.

In the last 10 years, I've handed out at least 200 cans (beer and soda) and have not had one complaint. Ever.

Can I assume you would be equally offended coming across me doing my trail maintenance, a horrible incursion of industry in recreational space interrupting that precious illusion of isolated self-sufficiency - on a trail that relies on the the funding and efforts of thousands of people?

I do not leave coolers out unattended at trailheads. Underage hikers or nondrinkers get offered soda. I don't preach. I don't charge money. I don't insist on conversation, but I request that they stay around until they can return the empty can, which I pack out.

I don't do trail maintenance or even trail magic strictly for thruhikers, I do it for all the people who hike. I get the feeling that you would prefer to not have dayhikers changing the nature of 'your' trail for their few feel good hours, whether you stop and acknowledge them or not.

I like to think I've done some small bit of good in the world, and that is admittedly a selfish joy. They say being a volunteering is like pissing yourself in black pants - you may get a warm feeling doing it, but no one seems to notice.

If I strike you as the kind of person who needs to be banned from the trail, then I can only hope you buy a nice wooded plot in the middle of nowhere where you can walk in circles undisturbed by the zany antics of the general populace. Live the dream.

In the end, your complaints about trail magic seem to me as ridiculous as dayhikers insisting that all thruhikers be fresh smelling - or that hot dog vendors ruin the sense of wilderness in Central Park.

I understand your goal is to discourage people from altering your individual experience, and such is your right to do so. Just keep in mind that you can't always pick the type of kindness strangers offer, and that many other thruhikers would disagree with you.

If I ever handed off one of my precious cold beers after a hot day of trailwork and got that spiel, I think I'd be done volunteering for a while. I just can't imagine that happening based on any interaction I've had on the trail. So far, it seems to be completely isolated to people typing at their computer as opposed to people actually on the trail.



"Remote for detachment, narrow for chosen company, winding for leisure, lonely for contemplation, the Appalachian Trail beckons not merely north and
south but upward to the body, mind and soul of man," said Harold Allen, one of the early AT volunteers. His wisdom was quoted by Myron Avery at the 1952 ATC conference, shortly before his death.

"Remote for detachment, narrow for chosen company, winding for leisure, lonely for contemplation, the Appalachian Trail beckons not merely north and south but upward to the body, mind and soul of totally independent thruhikers only," would have been a really crappy quote about public land and an completely unrealistic assumption about self-sufficiency.

Either way, I wish you all many satisfying miles down life's trail. Just consider that in an undertaking that depends on the efforts of thousands, that discouraging the well meaning (even the misguided ones), shrinks the very small pool of people that actually care enough about the trail and the hikers who use it.

Maybe at the next 'hiker feed', thank them and put the idea in their head that trail maintenance is the most important form of planned trail magic out there. You might just be giving a trail angel their wings... and ax. ;)

[jersey joe]

Well said Ramblinbob, good post!

[weary]

Weary,
No, I'm not argueing any of those things. I realize that you can't control urban sprawl or Wal-Marts but my point is that there is no longer wilderness along the trail. Protecting the trail is a wonderful thing but you must realize that you are not protecting wilderness, just a wooded pathway. Change will always happen and usually not for the better.
I remember seeing ski resorts, small towns and an airport from the AT while on the Bigelow summits yet you had the plan of energy producing windmills in the distance stopped because they might ruin the view. It wasn't a wal-mart or a housing plan, it was something that would have benefitted the production of cleaner power in our country but it was voted down due to "not in my back yard". You did not protect the "wilderness view" by stopping them, there was already development in multiple areas in that viewing area. That certainly wasn't progress yet you think that trail magic is another detriment to the trail. It is a wooded path...I am so glad and feel so fortunate that I got to hike it as much as I have but it is just a wooded path.
Katahdin is one of the most beautiful mountains on the entire trail. Baxter is totally protected and rightly so but drive 5 miles down the road and you are surrounded by miles long stacks of cut timber and logged areas. It is a thin strip of woods with a trail in it.
In 2002 I was at a shelter in the 100 Mile Wilderness. A new shelter near a stream, possibly Logan Brook or the next one northbound. It was beautiful, peaceful and a stunning site for a shelter until an hour before dark while watching for moose that Tom Petty came blasting out of the woods somewhere across the stream and the sound of car engines. I'm sorry that you don't see my feelings on this and obviously your feelings are also strong because you live and work to help the trail in Maine and I do appreciate all of the work that you have done to help the AT. I admire the effort you have put forth throughout your life helping this trail and it's organizations but until you can show me anywhere on the trail that is true wilderness I refuse to believe that trail magic is hurting it. geek
Just to keep the record straight: I've never thought the trail was wilderness. It's not wilderness now. It was not wilderness when it was just a dream in the 1920s. It is however, wilder than most of the landscape I see daily. Most of the trail is even wilder than the 5,000 acres some of us are so proud of in the small town where I live.

Yes, the AT is just a narrow corridor thru the woods. But that's not a reason for not preserving as much wildness as possible. I argue against the growing numbers of organized parties at road crossings, along the trail and at shelters because they further damage what wildness that exists.

The only wind mills that have been "voted down" were not what some would think of as a "distance" from the trail, but just a mile away. The voting was by a citizen board created 40 years ago in recognition that the northern woods of Maine were unique in the east, some 10 million acres of mostly commercial forest, in which only 12,000 people made their homes.

The law is essentially a giant zoning ordinance in which new developments have to be located if possible near existing developments to prevent sprawl, and should fit "harmoniously within the natural environment."

The Maine Appalachian Trail Club hired a lawyer and expert witnesses and to my surprise we won. The legislature promptly changed the law in an attempt to prevent future victories.

We are now engaged in a second fight over an even larger industrial wind power development, a bit further from the trail, but also much closer to the Bigelow Preserve, which was created by referendum vote in 1976 -- a referendum that was mostly the results of the efforts of one man. He had taken his girl friend for a hike on the mountain and came back convinced that the mountain had to be saved from development. He single handedly recruited supporters, and organized a statewide campaign.

His campaign is why I don't fret about the growing numbers of hikers. Only if people know an area will they have an incentive to protect it. Bigelow was largely unknown until I started to write about the mountain in the years before the referendum. Some people claimed I was destroying the mountain experience by encouraging too many hikers. I climbed the mountain and wrote about the expereince; took a group of high school students on a winter backpack one February and wrote about the experience. I even took a couple of reporters from competing papers up the mountain, and was pleased that they also wrote about their experiences. Because by then the mountain was being eyed for a giant new year round resort, an "Aspen of the East," the developers said.

Anyway, I think all the early publicity was why the referendum passed, though narrowly, over the objections of almost the entire political leadership of the state.

[Virginia Trails]

Mostly because some of these folks are so pathetic in their attempts at vicariously being involved with the trail, it would be like a slap in the face to say no thanks.

Wow... aren't you just SUPER! It must feel really good to be so flipping awesome, especially when the rest of mankind is comparatively pathetic. I mean... how dare anyone actually be interested in other human beings and their pursuit to hike 2000+ miles. Clearly, the vicarious thrill they get from offering you food and beverage makes them total losers! How kind of you to deign to accept those shoddy offerings of stale coffee and cold hotdogs.

Seriously though, my family lives right outside Shenandoah and we love hiking. But, due to circumstances we can't thru-hike at this stage in our lives. If we pass thru-hikers who need a ride, we pick them up. If I have leftover grapes in my backpack near the end of a hike and we pass a shelter, I offer them to thru-hikers. On a couple occasions, we've even hiked down to a shelter with a bag of ice and snacks on a really hot day. We've met and stayed friends with some thru-hikers along the way. I don't do these things to feel good about myself, I do it because I like people and I am interested in them.

[BAG "o" TRICKS]

I'm looking forward to my BMT thru in a few weeks. It's supposed to have a completely different vibe than the AT.

Good, maybe I'll run in to you. I'll be out on the BMT providing support and 'Trial Magic' for the Smith brothers since there seems to be:-? way too much on the 'AT'. I'm only kidding, I hope you and everyone out there finds the hike you seek.
When I help hikers out along the trial with a ride to town or surprise them at a road crossing with a chair, a cold drink, a store bought burger or pizza sometimes they'd offer me money, but I'd never take it, instead I suggested three things. #1 Join the ATC and ALDHA, and if they were already members I suggested #2 that they might give back with some trail work in the future, or #3 after their hike if they ever got back out to the 'AT' maybe consider returning that act of kindness. I guess many of them are doing #3, which sometimes causes a lot of the other # 1 and #2 along our beloved 'AT';).

[LDog]

[QUOTE=XCskiNYC;1142235]Bill Bryson says /QUOTE]

Bill Bryson is a genius at humorist writing, as a thru hiker he was a failure. I don't take much advise from him about hiking but he is a good laugh.

The OP's point was not about hiking, but about history. Something Bryson's pretty good at.

[rickb]

Wow... aren't you just SUPER! It must feel really good to be so flipping awesome

I hope for his sake it does.

For my part, it just feels awesome to have the opportunity to walk through some of the many thousands of acres that will be forever protected because of his hard work and vision.

Being one of only 50 or so people to have EVER been awarded honorary membership in the HISTORY of the ATC, doesn't mean that Weary is always right, but it does mean that his opinions are always worthy of thoughtful consideration.

To my way of thinking, the AT will benefit most when those who really do make a difference continue to do everything possible to preserve the sprirt of wildness that still resides along the Trail.

It is there, you know.

[Rockhound]

Trail Magic? #1 rule: Do not leave unattended food on/near the trail
#2 rule: Do not leave waste/litter on/near the trail
#3 rule: If you wish to provide or accept trail magic, great
#4 rule: If you do not wish to provide or accept trail magic, great
#5 rule: Never be upset by trail magic or lack thereof unless rule #1 and/or rule #2 have been broken.

[Esspweb]

Rambunny is absolutely right.

[Virginia Trails]

Being one of only 50 or so people to have EVER been awarded honorary membership in the HISTORY of the ATC, doesn't mean that Weary is always right, but it does mean that his opinions are always worthy of thoughtful consideration.


I give thoughtful consideration to everyone. But when weary said, "some folks are so pathetic in their attempts at vicariously being involved with the trail", it rubbed me the wrong way. It sounds arrogant and condescending to my ears, regardless of how much experience he has or how many ways the ATC has honored him.

I think he could have left that sentiment of contempt out of his argument, and still made his point.

[Bare Bear]

I can think of several times where I was very appreciative of the help I got on various trails. In CA on the PCT I got caught in a very unexpected snow storm and after four to five miles ( nearly eight hours hiking) of chest deep snow got to the highway where a trucker invited me in to wait it out. He took every penny I had playing cards for two days (about $40) and I consider it real cheap even today for a warm space and a new friend.

[weary]

I can think of several times where I was very appreciative of the help I got on various trails. In CA on the PCT I got caught in a very unexpected snow storm and after four to five miles ( nearly eight hours hiking) of chest deep snow got to the highway where a trucker invited me in to wait it out. He took every penny I had playing cards for two days (about $40) and I consider it real cheap even today for a warm space and a new friend.
I applaud all efforts at helping people in dangerous or even difficult circumstances. But there is absolutely no connection between helping people in trouble, and the increasing practice of deliberately cluttering a trail designed to allow people an opportunity to experience a bit of wildness, to give out food and beverages.

I've noticed that trail magic often abruptly stops when rain drops start, as trail "angels" rush to shelter.

[max patch]

I give thoughtful consideration to everyone. But when weary said, "some folks are so pathetic in their attempts at vicariously being involved with the trail", it rubbed me the wrong way.

Weary understands that most pre-planned trail magic is really for the benefit of the giver, not the recipient.

[Lone Wolf]

Weary understands that most pre-planned trail magic is really for the benefit of the giver, not the recipient.

so true. hikers on vacation aren't needy. they have food and money

[ScrapIron]

I always get a kick out of the "enforcer" personality types. The ones who talk about freedom in one breath, and then about trying to control the actions of others in the other.

I'd like to say God Bless all of you trail angels; people who live vicariously through the actions of others; people whose motives for helping others lie in trying to get a feel good buzz. Please, by all means, keep on spreading your form of happiness. Keep on blessing the lives of others as you see fit.

[flemdawg1]

Thanks you to Mtn Squid, Missionary, Tater, Mother Nature and all the other Trail Angels providing TM last week as I hiked in GA. I truly appreciated it. You positively impacted my hike for the better. And God Bless all of you.

There's plenty of trails with no Trail Magic whatsoever, perhaps all these offended folks should try those.

[Bucketfoot]

I think Lil Red said it best way back at the beginning of this thread. Try doing some trail maintenance or give some money to the ATC if you want to give something back.That's the best way to insure that the AT experience will be there for others to enjoy in the future.

[WingedMonkey]

:sun
There's plenty of trails with no Trail Magic whatsoever, perhaps all these offended folks should try those.Or those that require it could join those hikes around the mall food courts.

[hikerboy57]

I'll bet Bear Gryllis would accept trail magic anywhere he found it.Use anything at hand that will get the job done.and if you dont need it, keep moving. Its the AT not the Alaskan wilderness, you pass through or near towns every few days. Its also a living community of people who share their love of the AT. Scrap iron- join the community, whether its thru trail maintenance, sharing your experiences with others, or just a simple donation.And dont delude yourself into thinking thruhiking the AT is another walk in the park, thats why only 20% who start make it to the end.Its hard work. Buts also not a wilderness survival course.

[Lone Wolf]

And dont delude yourself into thinking thruhiking the AT is another walk in the park, thats why only 20% who start make it to the end.Its hard work. Buts also not a wilderness survival course.

have you walked it? it real is an easy thing to do. physically

[hikerboy57]

have you walked it? it real is an easy thing to do. physically
Ill find out next year. Ive sectioned most of the AT north of PA, but never done it in one shot. Physically I agree, but Ive met enough NOBOS in NH and ME to know the mental is a bit tougher. Almost everyone Ive met , by the time they hit the ME border, just couldnt finish the trail fast enough.Although a few that I met didnt want it to end.

[tjforrester]

I was amazed to read the amount of trail magic this year. One hiker described 5 acts of trail magic in his first 5 days. It's not only at road crossings but seems to be at every shelter in Georgia. Years ago I used to be one of the few people to give out food on a weekday in March. Now I feel I may be ruining the experience. I think I may have joined the "you should provide for yourself and skip trail magic" group. Never thought that would happen:(

It takes a trail angel and a hiker for trail magic to happen, and I suspect trail angels get as much out of giving as the hiker does out of receiving. The interaction seems healthy all the way around.

I just hiked through Georgia and experienced four acts of trail magic, certainly a higher rate than when I was hiking the AT back in the late 90s, but I immensely enjoyed meeting the trail angels and I could see the pleasure in their eyes when I accepted their sustenance. In turn, I was grateful for their gift and made sure they knew it.

If other hikers want to skip the trail magic, have at. I've thru-hiked trails where trail magic is almost non-existent, so I don't feel the need to prove I can get from point A to point B without eating food that isn't in my pack. You hike on by and I'll stop and eat your cheeseburger and drink your beer, and we'll both go to bed happy.:sun

[weary]

It takes a trail angel and a hiker for trail magic to happen, and I suspect trail angels get as much out of giving as the hiker does out of receiving. The interaction seems healthy all the way around. ....
Except for those few who go to the woods and mountains to enjoy what little wildness that still remains.

[Jack Tarlin]

Weary:

How do you know that this trail magic took place in a "wilderness" area?

Most magic takes place at road crossings and trailheads, or intown.

Grill hot dogs or handing out cold Cokes at a parking lot does not challenge or threaten anyone's "wilderness" experience. And as has been pointed out previously, those not interested in this largess can smile at the folks offering it and say "No thank you!" and can keep walking. Honestly, it's not that big a deal.

[tjforrester]

Except for those few who go to the woods and mountains to enjoy what little wildness that still remains.

The AT is an illusion of wilderness that crosses a road every three-point-something miles. There are three-sided log cabins spaced within easy walking distance each day. White blazes mark the way, sometimes, it seems, on every other tree. There are data books that give away so much that discovery is a thing of the past. Hikers sit on overlooks, whip out their phones, and call home about the beautiful scenery. Trail angels come out to the roads and offer trail magic. Shoot, now there are even businesses that offer scheduled shuttles from trail heads.

Weary, all this adds up to a trail that is very different than the vision of its founders. I'm all for hiking in the wild, am as hardcore as any hiker who has ever visited this forum, but I have zero expectations of wilderness when I step onto the AT. I accept the increased frequency of trail magic as part of the AT experience, as I do the shelters, encroaching businesses, and cell phones, and I choose to adopt this attitude because I don't like the alternative.

[max patch]

Weary gets it.

Its a shame that all too often his is the proverbial lone voice in the wilderness.

[Mags]

The AT is an illusion of wilderness that crosses a road every three-point-something miles. T

Ah..but Weary specifically mentioned WILDness.

And while the AT does not have any 'true' wilderness (whatever the hell that is), it has wildness in spades.

A fierce storm on Franconia ridge, hearing the loons at a lonely lake in Maine, being on top of a bald on awesome clear, sunny day.

All wild. All awesome. All beautiful. And all places I look back on fondly through the years. For me anyway. But I don't claim to be a hardcore hiker or even medium-soft. :)

[tjforrester]

Ah..but Weary specifically mentioned WILDness.

And while the AT does not have any 'true' wilderness (whatever the hell that is), it has wildness in spades.

A fierce storm on Franconia ridge, hearing the loons at a lonely lake in Maine, being on top of a bald on awesome clear, sunny day.

All wild. All awesome. All beautiful. And all places I look back on fondly through the years. For me anyway. But I don't claim to be a hardcore hiker or even medium-soft. :)

If you have to ask what true wilderness is, you've never been in it. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[sherrill]

If you have to ask what true wilderness is, you've never been in it. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

The middle of Alaska, deep in the Andes, deep in the Amazon.

Both places I consider wilderness. No telephone lines/poles, no traffic noise, no lights, no planes/helicopters overhead.

[sherrill]

Hah, should've said all places...

[tjforrester]

Weary gets it.

Its a shame that all too often his is the proverbial lone voice in the wilderness.

Weary gets how solace, the commune of man with nature, heals the soul. What he doesn't get is how grousing about the changes on the AT is wasted energy. I've been there done that, was disgusted with the trail the last time I thru-hiked and came upon advertisements nailed up in shelters. I've come back out with a new attitude, one that allows me to hike the trail in peace. Instead of loathing the changes, I accept the AT for what it has become. I see the changes as neither good nor bad; that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[hikerboy57]

The AT is an illusion of wilderness that crosses a road every three-point-something miles. There are three-sided log cabins spaced within easy walking distance each day. White blazes mark the way, sometimes, it seems, on every other tree. There are data books that give away so much that discovery is a thing of the past. Hikers sit on overlooks, whip out their phones, and call home about the beautiful scenery. Trail angels come out to the roads and offer trail magic. Shoot, now there are even businesses that offer scheduled shuttles from trail heads.

Weary, all this adds up to a trail that is very different than the vision of its founders. I'm all for hiking in the wild, am as hardcore as any hiker who has ever visited this forum, but I have zero expectations of wilderness when I step onto the AT. I accept the increased frequency of trail magic as part of the AT experience, as I do the shelters, encroaching businesses, and cell phones, and I choose to adopt this attitude because I don't like the alternative.
the founders never designed the trail with the intention of a thru hike. Earl Shaffer changed all that.

[Berserker]

I agree that's not trail magic. Trail magic is when the other person involved does not know that what they are doing is trail magic. It sometimes does not involve another person. It's an act of serendipity on the trail when what you needed appears just when you needed it most.
Couldn't agree more. Maybe it's the section hiker mentality, but I don't look for or really care about trail magic. With that said I did have something truly wonderful happen to me last year on a section in VT. I was having a bad day, and feeling tired and worn out. I had a re-supply box at the Bromley Inn, and it felt like it was taking forever to get to the VT 11/30 crossing. Then wouldn't ya know it I got hit with a thunderstorm complete with hail. I finally got to the road, and started walking when I realized I was going the wrong way. So I turned around and started walking back the other way when a fellow pulls over and offers me a ride (I wasn't hitching by the way...I intended to walk to the inn). Man, that had to have been one of the most perfectly timed things I've ever had happen to me where a stranger randomly helped me out, and it totally lifted my spirits the rest of the trip. Oh yeah, and the prime rib at Johnny Seesaw's was some mean trail magic too...oh wait that wasn't TM...I paid for that :D.

[WingedMonkey]

If the AT is nothing more than a walk from town to town, why is it that every thread on here about rescues by SAR either requires air support or a two day effort?
Can't they just drive the ambulance there?

:-?

[tenlots]

The only trail magic I have ever seen has been empty......that is almost worse. But I am only out there for a couple weeks...I can live without a cupcake for that time...almost....

[Mags]

If you have to ask what true wilderness is, you've never been in it. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nah. I just don't claim to have the one, true, definition handed down from Mt. Sinai...

Then again, I am not making the claim that I am a hardcore hiker as that has ever existed on this forum, either... :sun

[Buzz_Lightfoot]

Problem bears and problem hikers? Is this an example of evolution? Thanks, you brought a smile and laughter to the start my day.

Remeber, a fed hiker is a dead hiker. Thye may look cute but they are wild animals. Please help them stay that way!

[Old Hiker]

Remeber, a fed hiker is a dead hiker. Thye may look cute but they are wild animals. Please help them stay that way!

I volunteer for the captive breeding program!!

Wait - I wanna see the other captives before deciding!

[Buzz_Lightfoot]

WOW is anyone seriously judging people who want to be nice? ....

I just read this entire thread. Of all that was said, THIS is the best. Bravo Skooch, bravo!

BL

[weary]

The AT is an illusion of wilderness that crosses a road every three-point-something miles. There are three-sided log cabins spaced within easy walking distance each day. White blazes mark the way, sometimes, it seems, on every other tree. There are data books that give away so much that discovery is a thing of the past. Hikers sit on overlooks, whip out their phones, and call home about the beautiful scenery. Trail angels come out to the roads and offer trail magic. Shoot, now there are even businesses that offer scheduled shuttles from trail heads.

Weary, all this adds up to a trail that is very different than the vision of its founders. I'm all for hiking in the wild, am as hardcore as any hiker who has ever visited this forum, but I have zero expectations of wilderness when I step onto the AT. I accept the increased frequency of trail magic as part of the AT experience, as I do the shelters, encroaching businesses, and cell phones, and I choose to adopt this attitude because I don't like the alternative.

I haven't said a word about wilderness. I have said that there is value in preserving what little wildness that still exists. The OP asks if there is too much trail magic. My answer is yes because I think it important to "preserve what little wildness that still exists."

I admit I'm being selfish. But probably less selfish than those who clutter the trail enviroment with feeds to boost their egos and to vicariously participate in a thru hike. There are many degrees of wildness, short of true wilderness, which never did exist on the Appalachian Trail.

[Jack Tarlin]

At the risk of repeating what seems obvious, I fail to see what is "wild" about a trailhead parking lot, or perhaps throwing a barbecue/cookout for hikers at a place like Bear Mountain. Oddly enough, I was under the impression that this sort of behavior was OK at places like this, which is I suppose explains the permanent presence of all those grills and picnic tables.

In the right setting, there's nothing wrong with Trail Magic. Those not interested can refuse it. The kindness of strangers is not something that is forced on anyone, and lastly, there's nothing remotely "wild" about a place whose purpose is to temporarily provide parking for automobiles. Honestly, folks, I think there are greater threats to the A.T. than a guy grilling a few weiners in a gravel lot.

[flemdawg1]

I was amazed to read the amount of trail magic this year. One hiker described 5 acts of trail magic in his first 5 days. It's not only at road crossings but seems to be at every shelter in Georgia. Years ago I used to be one of the few people to give out food on a weekday in March. Now I feel I may be ruining the experience. I think I may have joined the "you should provide for yourself and skip trail magic" group. Never thought that would happen:(

Glenn don't let all the hyperbole get to you or distort the reality of what is really happening out there. I just came back last weeeknd from a GA section. There were only 7 acts of TM in 10 days that I knew of, 3 I missed due to timing, 2 I didn't partake of due to just eating within the last hour. All but 1 of them were at road crossings where the wildness/wilderness is not impacted. ONly once at the top of Kellys Knob was there a guy handing out cold sodas, and after that climb I was going to be taking a break anyway, having a nice cold drink was just a bonus. Not a SINGLE time did I hear a hiker who was actually there complain. And thats who you are serving, not a bunch of internet grouches. Take it from a guy who was THERE, TM is not ruining the hiking experience.

[Second Half]

Can y'all please stop with this argument? This thread is seriously ruining my enjoyment of WB.

[Pedaling Fool]

There's no enjoyment without an argument...simply impossible:D

[kayak karl]

Can y'all please stop with this argument? This thread is seriously ruining my enjoyment of WB.
ROTFLMAO. some people don't have a clue. LOL

[Lone Wolf]

Can y'all please stop with this argument? This thread is seriously ruining my enjoyment of WB.

it's JUST a website. don't click on the thread. pretty simple :banana

[Jim Adams]

ROTFLMAO. some people don't have a clue. LOL
I really can't believe that this thread is still going...it has already been decided that because of "wilderness/wildness"...the 90% are wrong because the 10% have decided that.:D

geek

[WingedMonkey]

I really can't believe that this thread is still going...it has already been decided that because of "wilderness/wildness"...the 90% are wrong because the 10% have decided that.:D

geek

That's right, and if you don't like it, go hike some where else.

:p

[weary]

..... Honestly, folks, I think there are greater threats to the A.T. than a guy grilling a few weiners in a gravel lot.
Of course there are greater threats. But that has nothing to do with the question asked. This thread asks about the wisdom of trail magic.

[Jack Tarlin]

I don't understand this debate over the "wisdom" of Trail Magic. People are making such a hullabaloo about nothing. What is unwise about a hot dog or a soda pop given out in a parking lot? Honestly, this is getting absurd. Ever hear of the phrase "No thank you?" Appropriate dispensing of Trail Magic is no big deal; accepting it is no big deal; refusing it is no big deal. People that acknowledge that the Trail has greater threats,or who admit that this is no big deal should let this one go. It's no big deal.

Repeat as often as necessary.

[skooch]

I just read this entire thread. Of all that was said, THIS is the best. Bravo Skooch, bravo!

BL

Thanks Buzz. I gave up on this thread a while back because it was really harshing my mellow. Lets start one on hikers who smile and say "good morning" pros and cons :eek:

[Pedaling Fool]

I hate the freakin' mornings

[skooch]

I hate the freakin' mornings

LOL, I know and all those chipper morning people really get under my skin with their crappy smiles and "Have a nice day" attitude. :mad: The nerve.

[Lone Wolf]

i'm so glad i walked the trail back "in the day", when "trail magic" had nothing to do with today's feedings.

[Pedaling Fool]

Morning people that say "good morning" aggravate the hell out of me, just stay away, because you're just one notch away from the most irritating person I know -- This guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efERY2MBvGM&feature=relmfu) :mad:

[Colter]

At the risk of repeating what seems obvious, I fail to see what is "wild" about a trailhead parking lot, or perhaps throwing a barbecue/cookout for hikers at a place like Bear Mountain. Oddly enough, I was under the impression that this sort of behavior was OK at places like this, which is I suppose explains the permanent presence of all those grills and picnic tables. In the right setting, there's nothing wrong with Trail Magic. Those not interested can refuse it. The kindness of strangers is not something that is forced on anyone, and lastly, there's nothing remotely "wild" about a place whose purpose is to temporarily provide parking for automobiles. Honestly, folks, I think there are greater threats to the A.T. than a guy grilling a few weiners in a gravel lot.

I agree with Jack. I have yet to encounter one hiker on the trail in the real world who complained about encountering a stranger offering goodies. Obviously there are exceptions, but the percentage of dissenters is markedly higher on internet forums than on the trail according to my personal observations.

[weary]

I agree with Jack. I have yet to encounter one hiker on the trail in the real world who complained about encountering a stranger offering goodies. Obviously there are exceptions, but the percentage of dissenters is markedly higher on internet forums than on the trail according to my personal observations.
The majority is not always right. That's why the founders invented a supreme court.

[TD55]

Take what ya can get. Yer in survival mode anyhow. You are living off the stuff you carry on yer back, You should be super aware and observant of your surroundings. You should be tuned in to your environment. Something

[TD55]

.....pops up.... grab it if it will have a positive impact on your mission, Move on, it's mostly just hiker span.

[Trailbender]

The majority is not always right. That's why the founders invented a supreme court.

And unfortunately, the supreme court is not always right either.

[mudhead]

Nah. I just don't claim to have the one, true, definition handed down from Mt. Sinai...

Then again, I am not making the claim that I am a hardcore hiker as that has ever existed on this forum, either... :sun

It does seem that you are fully housebroken now...:eek:

[Lone Wolf]

Take what ya can get. Yer in survival mode anyhow. You are living off the stuff you carry on yer back, You should be super aware and observant of your surroundings. You should be tuned in to your environment. Somethingsurvival mode? on a walkin' vacation? hardly. feeds are a joke

[skooch]

Morning people that say "good morning" aggravate the hell out of me, just stay away, because you're just one notch away from the most irritating person I know -- This guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efERY2MBvGM&feature=relmfu) :mad:

Grrrr.....and "this guy" is going to get pepper sprayed before breakfast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsKO_r76kfQ

[Lilred]

survival mode? on a walkin' vacation? hardly. feeds are a joke

Can we at least change the lingo??? What irks me most is calling hiker feeds 'trail magic'. There is nothing magical about it. Call it what it is, a hiker feed. It might have been 'magic' at one time, years and years ago, when it wasn't done 7 out of 10 days of a hike.

There will come a day when someone will set up a grill in a
Walmart parking lot of a trail town, if it hasn't been done already....HAH!!

[WingedMonkey]

There will come a day when someone will set up a grill in a Walmart parking lot of a trail town, if it hasn't been done already....HAH!!

I will support that 100 %, put it right next to where the motor-homes park overnight, everyone can swap war stories.

;)

[weary]

I will support that 100 %, put it right next to where the motor-homes park overnight, everyone can swap war stories.

;)
I suspect that those motor home people also love to get free food that they don't even have to cook. I wonder if they would call it motor magic.

[kayak karl]

.....pops up.... grab it if it will have a positive impact on your mission, Move on, it's mostly just hiker span.i saw nothing like this on the miles i did. what did you see on your survival trip?

[TD55]

[QUOTE=kayak karl;1147173]i saw nothing like this on the miles i did. what did you see on your survival trip?[/QUOTE

Religion. And, I didn't mean survial in the sense of staying alive in a deperate situation, living off the land, etc.

[bpitt]

Wow. And here I was contemplating doing a 'feed' somewhere along the trail, like in Virginia or somewhere further north. Do some real southern cooking with peas and cornbread and some baby back ribs.

[bpitt]

[QUOTE=kayak karl;1147173]i saw nothing like this on the miles i did. what did you see on your survival trip?[/QUOTE

Religion. And, I didn't mean survial in the sense of staying alive in a deperate situation, living off the land, etc.

'Religion' is a good thing to be found on the trail. After meeting some of the people I met while doing my Georgia section, I'd say we ALL need more religion.

[kayak karl]

Wow. And here I was contemplating doing a 'feed' somewhere along the trail, like in Virginia or somewhere further north. Do some real southern cooking with peas and cornbread and some baby back ribs.
go to your local homeless shelter, they probably need it.

[bpitt]

go to your local homeless shelter, they probably need it.
Already covered, brother.;)

[kayak karl]

Already covered, brother.;)
GOOD FOR YOU, we did a breakfast this morn in the city. i always come away feeling better then feeding hikers :sun

[bpitt]

GOOD FOR YOU, we did a breakfast this morn in the city. i always come away feeling better then feeding hikers :sun

True. There are those on the trail who need help, and food is one way to get to talk to them.

[kayak karl]

True. There are those on the trail who need help, and food is one way to get to talk to them.
the ones on the trail chose their journey, others didn't. not criticizing you. i spend my time on the less fortunate.

[njordan2]

I'm hoping for more trail magic!!!!!

[TD55]

True. There are those on the trail who need help, and food is one way to get to talk to them.

So you have decided that those without your religous beliefs need help and use a hiker feed as an opputunity to implement your propaganda. Thats not trail magic, it's religious spam disquised as trail magic.

[flemdawg1]

So you have decided that those without your religous beliefs need help and use a hiker feed as an opputunity to implement your propaganda. Thats not trail magic, it's religious spam disquised as trail magic.

Serving someone food in the name of Christ (especially as a hiker feed) is a fairly low percentage way of evangelizing. If it happens to convert someone, great, but most just do it to show love to their fellow man.

We do a kind of feed while doing field evangelism in poor villages of Mexico. But we also give them stuff they can actually use, like shoes, clothes and groceries.

[weary]

The more that’s done for hikers in the forests and woods and mountains, in that far
do they fail to get the most out of it…. We must retain the challenging character of
the wilderness.
—WALTER O’KANE, guidebook writer, 1935. I thnk Walt may be a guy that won a John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation award in 1951 for his work in the nature of wild places and native American culture. The Guggenheim is about the most distinguished award issued for a broad range of social science subjects.

[Jack Tarlin]

It is difficult to engage in debate with folks who won't answer direct questions.

I ask again: Where is either the wildness or the wilderness in a parking lot, and what is objectionable about having a picnic or cookout in a place that was planned,built,and furnished for that precise purpose?

[bpitt]

So you have decided that those without your religous beliefs need help and use a hiker feed as an opputunity to implement your propaganda. Thats not trail magic, it's religious spam disquised as trail magic.

Yes. Those who do not worship the one true God DO need help. YOU can call it propaganda or spam or whatever. However, the correct term is the Gospel. You don't have to believe, you don't have to listen to it, God gave us free will. I am but a humble messenger.

[rickb]

The more that’s done for hikers in the forests and woods and mountains, in that far
do they fail to get the most out of it…. We must retain the challenging character of
the wilderness.
—WALTER O’KANE, guidebook writer, 1935. I thnk Walt may be a guy that won a John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation award in 1951 for his work in the nature of wild places and native American culture. The Guggenheim is about the most distinguished award issued for a broad range of social science subjects.

Thanks for sharing that, Weary.

The idea that making the Trail "better" actually takes away from it, is a real paradox.

From feeds, to new and better shelters, to paint by numbers guidebooks, to constant communication from home, to prepaid transportation across the Kennebeck, the AT is changing.

I can only hope that those who really make a difference will always strive to protect the spirit of wildness one still finds along the Trail, whenever and wherever they have the chance.

I fear the momentum the momentum is against them.

[Trailbender]

Yes. Those who do not worship the one true God DO need help. YOU can call it propaganda or spam or whatever. However, the correct term is the Gospel. You don't have to believe, you don't have to listen to it, God gave us free will. I am but a humble messenger.

The problem is, it is only the one true god to the people that believe it. I hate to bash your religion, but not everyone believes that. I was raised Southern Baptist, well, brainwashed is more like it, and once I got old enough to start studying biology, chemistry, ect, I realized there was no way most of the stuff in the Bible could be true. I knew it at an early age, I just didn't have the evidence to verify it. Now, I do believe that there is evidence for a higher power, but I don't think it is anyone's particular "god".

I had to listen to enough of that stuff as a kid, I don't mind someone saying a blessing before I eat, but I would resent having to listen to a long sermon first.

[flemdawg1]

I had to listen to enough of that stuff as a kid, I don't mind someone saying a blessing before I eat, but I would resent having to listen to a long sermon first.

Well that's not how it works. Everyone is free to eat without any obligation. and I've never heard of anyone ever even breaching the subject the subject of religion except to invite the attendees to a completely voluntary worship event.

[Old Hiker]

And unfortunately, the supreme court is not always right either.

Dred Scott, anyone?

Although what the supreme court has to do with hiker feeds and/or trail magic is above MY pay grade!

[Trailbender]

Well that's not how it works. Everyone is free to eat without any obligation. and I've never heard of anyone ever even breaching the subject the subject of religion except to invite the attendees to a completely voluntary worship event.

That's fine, then.


Dred Scott, anyone?

Although what the supreme court has to do with hiker feeds and/or trail magic is above MY pay grade!

Yeah, was thinking more of Roe v Wade, but I get your point.

[weary]

.... Although what the supreme court has to do with hiker feeds and/or trail magic is above MY pay grade!
Well, there's this guy who said, "I learned early that the richness of life is found in adventure. Adventure calls on all
the faculties of mind and spirit. It develops self-reliance and independence. Life then
teems with excitement. But man is not ready for adventure unless he is rid of fear. For
fear confines him and limits his scope. He stays tethered by strings of doubt and
indecision and has only a small and narrow world to explore."
—Supreme Court Justice WILLIAM O. DOUGLAS.
I think independence is helped by freedom from intrusive groups of people catering to the hiker at shelters, stream crossings, and parking lots.

[Jack Tarlin]

Weary:

I realize the futility of getting you to ever change your mind on anything, but two things come to mind:

A guy sitting in a parking lot greeting passing hikers with a friendly hello and the offer of a cold soda pop is hardly intruding on anything.

And as for those very few individuals who would take umbrage at such a shocking violation of their privacy, well they can demonstrate "independence" by either ignoring the guy or simply saying "No thanks!" and then go about their business.

It's not that difficult and it amazes me that every year people make such a big deal about this entirely insignificant "problem." How fortunate these people must be if this is one of the main hardships in their lives. I've dealt with 40 people the past few weeks who've had their food stolen or their property seized or damaged by bears.......now THERE'S an intrusion on one's hike worth talking about.

[DapperD]

Well, there's this guy who said, "I learned early that the richness of life is found in adventure. Adventure calls on all
the faculties of mind and spirit. It develops self-reliance and independence. Life then
teems with excitement. But man is not ready for adventure unless he is rid of fear. For
fear confines him and limits his scope. He stays tethered by strings of doubt and
indecision and has only a small and narrow world to explore."
—Supreme Court Justice WILLIAM O. DOUGLAS.
I think independence is helped by freedom from intrusive groups of people catering to the hiker at shelters, stream crossings, and parking lots. From everything I have heard and read hiking the AT is also just as much a social experience as it is a hiking one. I mean seriousely, if you want the "spirit of adventure" and you want to develope the "skill of independence", then why not hike a more remote and less traveled trail such as the CDT. I mean, as other's have said if you do not want to be offered cold or hot drinks, some food, good conversation, etc...then just graciousely refuse and/or move on. There's also a guy who said: "That best portion of a good man's life, His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love".-William Wordsworth

[Badspeller]

...tuck the sting back in and keep a walking, maybe some Midol will help? Instructions on how to understand good will.. (shaking my head)... Need ye be commanded in ALL things?

[weary]

From everything I have heard and read hiking the AT is also just as much a social experience as it is a hiking one. I mean seriousely, if you want the "spirit of adventure" and you want to develope the "skill of independence", then why not hike a more remote and less traveled trail such as the CDT. I mean, as other's have said if you do not want to be offered cold or hot drinks, some food, good conversation, etc...then just graciousely refuse and/or move on. There's also a guy who said: "That best portion of a good man's life, His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love".-William Wordsworth
The AT is in fact a social experience. But that social experience is a result of hikers talking to and relating to other hikers.

Trail feeds are essentially a distraction, a distraction that decreases the spirit of adventure that most of us seek as we start on a long distance hike.

The spirit of adventure begins alive and well in most AT long distance hikers. Its gradual diminishment is a direct result of hangers on, seeking to live vicariously with their alleged trail magic -- their offers of food and goodies.

Most long distance hikers, including me, I'm sad to say, participate in alleged trail magic from time to time. But sadly, only the wisest of us, recognize the destruction that these planned charity events have caused to the goals that we sought when we dreamed of these hikes.

[Sickmont]

If someones wants to cook me a free hamburger, go for it.

[Pedaling Fool]

A very worthy expenditure of fossil fuel; I can't think of anything more worthy:D;)

[Lone Wolf]

If someones wants to cook me a free hamburger, go for it.

i'd rather have a steak.

[Jack Tarlin]

So in just one night, trail magic has gone from being "intrusive" to "destructive."
What will it be termed tomorrow......."life threatening?"

Honestly,people. It might do well to remember this: In the entire history of Trail Feeds, neither attendance at the event or subsequent feeding of the attendee was ever forced on anyone. For those seeking independence from these events, there's a simple remedy: Skip them.

[Jim Adams]

AMAZING!!!!!
I still don't believe that this thread is still going. I guess that if I want to read and participate in hiking discusions without this nonsense of arguing about trail magic I have to go to the CDT site...they don't have trail maic on the CDT...too much wilderness to spoil.
Now you've brought religion into the talk...stupid!

geek

[weary]

So in just one night, trail magic has gone from being "intrusive" to "destructive."
What will it be termed tomorrow......."life threatening?"

Honestly,people. It might do well to remember this: In the entire history of Trail Feeds, neither attendance at the event or subsequent feeding of the attendee was ever forced on anyone. For those seeking independence from these events, there's a simple remedy: Skip them.
Jack. You don't seem to understand the issue. It has nothing to do with whether people are required to participate. It has everything to do with whether more and more hiker feeds at shelters, stream and road crossings, and parking lots are changing the nature of the trail. The trail was designed by the founders as a way to introduce the mass of people to the experience of wildness.

Continuing and increasing mass feeds put on by mostly non hikers, changes the nature of the trail -- at least for the few of us who walk to experience a bit of wildness in an increaseingly civilized society.

And don't tell me again that great parts of the trail are not wild. That DOES NOT MEAN that we should not keep as much of the trail as possible as wild as possible.

[weary]

Bunch of bitter ninnies on this site. Who cares if people are giving away free food, sounds f-ing great to my wallet! Boo hoo, the AT ain't what it used to be, get used to it.
Just try to understand what the issue is.

[JAK]

Well said Weary. Also, development and encroachment are reversible. Awareness and education are first steps. People, however well intended, should perhaps consider supporting nature trails by quietly hiking on them, and perhaps studying the natural habitats which encompass them, rather than merely feeding people on them like it was just another occassion for a parking lot tailgate party. Real trail magic is better achieved through working with nature, rather than despite nature.

[Jim Adams]

The trail was designed by the founders as a way to introduce the mass of people to the experience of wildness.


If this was the case, they wouldn't have built shelters. Shelters have nothing to do with wilderness or wildness, they were constructed for comfort and convience.

I use shelters for the social aspect, the closeness of water sources and definitely to stay out of bad weather but I rarely sleep in them. The PCT was far more wild feeling, even when close to a town or road and alot of that was due to no man made shelters. The PCT feels like wilderness...the AT feels like a trail thru a local park.
I have gotten trail magic, feeds, whatever you want to call it on both of my AT thru hikes and not once did I feel that a wilderness feel was taken away by giving me a hotdog. OTOH, when I have been in real wilderness instead of percieved wilderness, I have not seen shelters, privies, or a road every couple of miles.
geek

[weary]

If this was the case, they wouldn't have built shelters. Shelters have nothing to do with wilderness or wildness, they were constructed for comfort and convience.

I use shelters for the social aspect, the closeness of water sources and definitely to stay out of bad weather but I rarely sleep in them. The PCT was far more wild feeling, even when close to a town or road and alot of that was due to no man made shelters. The PCT feels like wilderness...the AT feels like a trail thru a local park.
I have gotten trail magic, feeds, whatever you want to call it on both of my AT thru hikes and not once did I feel that a wilderness feel was taken away by giving me a hotdog. OTOH, when I have been in real wilderness instead of percieved wilderness, I have not seen shelters, privies, or a road every couple of miles.
geek
Jim you are assuming the trail pioneers had 21 century ideas and knowledge. They didn't. You need to think history Jim. Think tradition. Think 1920s and 30s materials. Three-sided Adirondack shelters had a century or more of history in the wilds of the northeast behind them. LOng before the trail existed, Adirondack shelters were commonly built by hunters, and trappers, by anyone who had a reason to exist temporarily in wild places.

Tents then were mostly made of heavy, long fiber cotton. The theory was that the fibers would swell with the first drops of rain, and thereafter shed the rain drops. The still common belief that one should not touch the walls of a tent in the rain, stems from the ancient use of cotton as a tent fabric.

The Appalachian trail pioneers made the logical shelter choice for the 1930s, when they chose the best alternative, Adirondack shelters.

Of course the Pacific Crest Trail is wilder. Unlike the AT it runs through mostly public land, and its trails are a product in part of the ideas and materials that grew out of a long, modern war. The AT dreamers deliberately were seeking to achieve in the crowded east, the best approximation of the wildness that prevailed in the scantly populated west as possible.

They succeeded remarkably well in my opinion. It's incredible that they were able to carve a long distance reasonably wild trail through the most crowded states in the east. What they could not have anticipated was that hundreds of non hikers would crowd the trails, parking lots and road sides they had built, giving out food and drink to folks on a six month walking vacation.

The AT pioneers did an incredible job of designing this incrediblw trail system. What they could not have anticipated was that great groups volunteers would crowd the edges of the trail, treating the walkers as if they were cute bears, wild pigeons, or trained dogs.

[Jim Adams]

Jim you are assuming the trail pioneers had 21 century ideas and knowledge. They didn't. You need to think history Jim. Think tradition. Think 1920s and 30s materials. Three-sided Adirondack shelters had a century or more of history in the wilds of the northeast behind them. LOng before the trail existed, Adirondack shelters were commonly built by hunters, and trappers, by anyone who had a reason to exist temporarily in wild places.

Tents then were mostly made of heavy, long fiber cotton. The theory was that the fibers would swell with the first drops of rain, and thereafter shed the rain drops. The still common belief that one should not touch the walls of a tent in the rain, stems from the ancient use of cotton as a tent fabric.

The Appalachian trail pioneers made the logical shelter choice for the 1930s, when they chose the best alternative, Adirondack shelters.

Of course the Pacific Crest Trail is wilder. Unlike the AT it runs through mostly public land, and its trails are a product in part of the ideas and materials that grew out of a long, modern war. The AT dreamers deliberately were seeking to achieve in the crowded east, the best approximation of the wildness that prevailed in the scantly populated west as possible.

They succeeded remarkably well in my opinion. It's incredible that they were able to carve a long distance reasonably wild trail through the most crowded states in the east. What they could not have anticipated was that hundreds of non hikers would crowd the trails, parking lots and road sides they had built, giving out food and drink to folks on a six month walking vacation.

The AT pioneers did an incredible job of designing this incrediblw trail system. What they could not have anticipated was that great groups volunteers would crowd the edges of the trail, treating the walkers as if they were cute bears, wild pigeons, or trained dogs.

Yes, I am thinking history...and history changes and changes things. Times are changing and you simply don't want them to. Yes I understand tradition...the founders also never anticipated thru hiking...do you want to stop that also.
The trail changes every year, re-routes, new privies, new shelters, new hostles, new businesses, new hikers and new attitudes. The original trail had alot of USFS road walking...should we move the trail back onto those sections for tradition? Times are changing. I understand tradition and history...I collect, restore and race vintage motorcycles and yes I love the past but I have to understand that I will never stop technology or progress. You may not consider "trail magic" progress but it is progression.

geek

[JAK]

Well, if they would finally just get around to straightening that sucker out and paving it, hikers wouldn't be so exhausted and hungry all the time.

[max patch]

The ATC is opposed to pre-planned trail feeds.

[JAK]

... spontaneity ensued.