View Full Version : $440 and still cold
markmack
03-27-2011, 17:22
slept out last night got down to 20F which is what my WM alpine light is rated to and i was on my therma rest pro light pad, wow was i cold. i had on rocky heavy weight base layer, smartwool socks and a beanie. if i laid on my back my feet got cold, if i laid on my side my side got cold. this is my first year with this bag and i am kinda disapointed i had hoped spending the money on whats suposed to be the best i would be warm.
swjohnsey
03-27-2011, 17:25
I'll give you a hundred bucks for it.
Pedaling Fool
03-27-2011, 17:25
:p:p:p:p:p
I'll give you a hundred bucks for it.
One-ten!
Seriously, try a thicker pad or try closed cell foam. I think it's a combination of your metabolism and the pad.
Then, if you still have trouble, the $110.00 offer still applies. :)
ChinMusic
03-27-2011, 17:31
Geez at 20°, I am comfortable barefoot with my Nunatak Skaha in my 30° bag......
You must sleep cold.
ekeverette
03-27-2011, 17:32
hey, i wish someone would give you some advice,because i'm cold natured and would like some ideas.
Takes about 3 days of sleeping in the cold for my body to get used to it. For a couple of days you might need wool socks and a ski hat but by the 4th day you'll probably be fine.
ChinMusic
03-27-2011, 17:35
hey, i wish someone would give you some advice,because i'm cold natured and would like some ideas.
It's a GREAT bag.
Wear down parka. Wear down pants. Wear down booties. Wear balaclava. Wear gloves.
Know yourself and adjust to it. Some folks need to carry a warmer bag than others.
Ain't rocket science.
I agree with Tinker. It's likely the pad that is not insulating you from the ground.
Sounds like the issue is not the bag, but your pad. As another has mentioned, get some ccf, make sure your feet are off the ground (on top of your pack works well).
I had the same problem with a WM Ultralite and it took me a while to figure out the problem -- I was too big for the sleeping bag. I'm 6', weigh 210 and have big shoulders. The result it that I was so jammed in that the loft wasn't effective. I sold the Ultralite bought another WM that's cut more generously -- oddly enough, the Alpinlite, which is a 64" compared to the 59" Ultralite. How big are you? You sure the loft isn't being too compressed?
I had the same problem with a WM Ultralite and it took me a while to figure out the problem -- I was too big for the sleeping bag. I'm 6', weigh 210 and have big shoulders. The result it that I was so jammed in that the loft wasn't effective. I sold the Ultralite bought another WM that's cut more generously -- oddly enough, the Alpinlite, which is a 64" compared to the 59" Ultralite. How big are you? You sure the loft isn't being too compressed?
Absolutely possible. The converse is true, too - if the user is too small for the bag, he/she will be trying to heat up air space within the inner shell of the bag rather than the dead air space in the down itself. This is similar to using a hammock underpad which is not snugged against the bottom of the hammock. It doesn't matter how thick the down is when it isn't against the user's body.
markmack
03-27-2011, 17:56
im 6'2" 225lb i bought the 6'6" bag and it fits great. i have a walmart blue CCF pad ill try under my therma rest and hope that works but really i am hoping for some dam warmer weather. at 3am this morning i would have took you up on the $100
Might want to look at this version of the Neoair: http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/trek-and-travel/neoair-trekker/product
Some people seem to like it...
Stir Fry
03-27-2011, 17:59
Were you in the open or in a tent. Was there any wind. Just a Walmart blue pad is not enouth. Its ok to about 30*-40*. R-value is only about 1 to 1 1/2
markmack
03-27-2011, 18:02
i meant a CCF pad under my therma rest that would put me at 2". 11/2" for therma and 1/2" for CCF
try taking all those clothes off. your body heat warms up the air in your bag and the down keeps the heat in. With all that clothing, your body heat isn't getting the air inside the bag warm.
Happened to me in a shelter. My feet were freezing in my sleeping bag. Took off my socks and they were toasty warm in no time. Try it before you ditch a perfectly good bag.
boil water, fill nalgene, make sure cap is on real tight - place it in your crotch area and sleep really warmly - no joke!
markmack
03-27-2011, 18:07
my wife was mad as hell when i bought this bag, i would walk through hot coals before i told her i was cold in it, im afraid i will die with this bag!
Try the ccf on top of your other pad.
Mrs Baggins
03-27-2011, 18:19
What no one has mentioned here is that the temp rating on any bag is the SURVIVAL rating, NOT the comfort rating. You'll survive at the bag's rating but that doesn't mean you'll be warm. I use a 25 degree bag for summer and a -10 bag down for temps down to the 30's. I won't sleep out at lower temps than that. I got caught out once, at Gooch Gap shelter, in temps in the low 20's in my 25 degree bag and could not stop shivering (on my "insulated" Big Agnes Air Core mat). I was fortunate in that a trail angel came along to see if anyone might need assistance and we left with him to get to a warm place - and then we bought silk bag liners (gives you another 10 degrees), Zrest mats, and hoped it would warm up after that night - and it did.
try taking all those clothes off. your body heat warms up the air in your bag and the down keeps the heat in. With all that clothing, your body heat isn't getting the air inside the bag warm.
Happened to me in a shelter. My feet were freezing in my sleeping bag. Took off my socks and they were toasty warm in no time. Try it before you ditch a perfectly good bag.
I've had the same problem (but not in a shelter). Your socks were probably damp from sweat. I sleep sockless most nights, too, but never without a layer to keep my sleeping bag clean. :)
2 winters ago, I was caught in an all out blizzard on top of Stratton Bald in Joyce Kilmer / Slickrock Wilderness - the temp was -4 degrees and the wind was blowing hard - no telling what the windchill was but I cooked mac-n-cheese and it was frozen before I could finish it - I had to break a lot of ice to get running water in a creek and everything was super hard. Anyway, I had a 5 degree down bag by Mountain Hardware which is really about a 15 degree bag so I was handicapped about 20 degrees - I boiled 2 full nalgene hot water bottles and hunkered down - the wind howled all night - my friend Alana and I tied our tents down (she did the water bottle thing too). She had a rough night but I was surprisingly warm - really, try it some cold night, it does work. Also make sure you pee before you go to bed so your body doesn't have to keep all that pee warm
my wife was mad as hell when i bought this bag, i would walk through hot coals before i told her i was cold in it, im afraid i will die with this bag!
It should handle room temperature OK.
I'm all for sleeping in the buff, but I think that Lilred is wrong about taking all of your clothes off - when it is super cold, the more I put on the warmer I get - I slept in my down jacket and stocking cap in Connecticut last week with temps mostly in the teens - toasty warm - I had a flask of liquor too - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
markmack
03-27-2011, 19:06
if i had gotten in my bag naked last night i think i would have gone into shock lol cant wait to see how pissed she gets when i tell her im buying a WM puma for $600
You have a really good bag and it sould be pretty warm. My bag has open baffels front to back so that I can shake more of the down to the top in cold temps and to the bottom when it is warm. In any case, be sure to fluff up the bag before you get into it. If it seems damp at all, try to get it out in the sun for a while.
Wear a hat and put a sweater or jacket around your shoulders so that warm air does not escape as you move around. Be sure that any clothes you wear to bed are dry to start and if you sweat in the night take them off.
If you were out in the open--maybe you could rig a tarp as a wind break.
Hope this helps, grayfox
The 20f rating on that Alpinlite is a men's comfort rating. Maybe 25f for women.
The reason why taking socks off could feel warmer is either because they were dirty/sweaty/wet or more commonly a bit too tight. Same reason why some report feeling warmer when they take their clothes off.
Just try having your (loose) pj on and off on a cold night , see which feels warmer.
Franco
skinewmexico
03-27-2011, 19:15
I'm in the warmer pad / bag too small camp. Does the bag weigh what it's supposed to?
What no one has mentioned here is that the temp rating on any bag is the SURVIVAL rating, NOT the comfort rating. You'll survive at the bag's rating but that doesn't mean you'll be warm. I use a 25 degree bag for summer and a -10 bag down for temps down to the 30's. I won't sleep out at lower temps than that. I got caught out once, at Gooch Gap shelter, in temps in the low 20's in my 25 degree bag and could not stop shivering (on my "insulated" Big Agnes Air Core mat). I was fortunate in that a trail angel came along to see if anyone might need assistance and we left with him to get to a warm place - and then we bought silk bag liners (gives you another 10 degrees), Zrest mats, and hoped it would warm up after that night - and it did.
While this is true on some of the lower priced bags, I don't think that it is true of ALL bags (however, on some that is quite the case). And now that more and more bags are being EN tested, I would imagine that this will be less and less true.
My Marmot Helium is a 15* bag. It has been EN tested for a man to be comfortable at 16*. I have used it just fine in lower temps than this, and this was only using my NeoAir and a 1/8" GG Thinlight pad under me. If I were to use a more appropriately rated pad under me, I really feel like I could be fine in this bag to temps between 5 and 10*. Of course that would be with my puffy jacket on and inside a shelter though (or at least a tarp blocking the wind). And of course that would be me. Everybody's different. But I don't find myself being a hot sleeper either.
Of course there are other things to consider too such as do you have a full tummy or are you appropriately hydrated. If you have to go pee too, go ahead and do it cause you are wasting heat by keeping your pee warm...
From Papa D : " I had a flask of liquor too - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz". Liquor actually lowers your core temperature by causing your blood vessels to dialate, increasing blood frow to the skin, cooling it for it's return to the heart and other internal organs.
It may, however, help you get your zzzzzzzzzzz's. ;)
All excellent advice.
Be sure you are hydrated well and have some food in belly.
Dehydration esp means you will be cool at night.
Also, be sure the mummy hood is cinched around your head fully.... Keep the heat in the bag..don't let it go outside. :)
Another thought occurred to was how sweaty was your clothing? All that moisture can make you cool.
At that temperature, a vapor barrier bag would definitely help with keeping you warmer. Also add a second vapor (space blanket) over top of your sleeping bag would further slow down temperature loss. I believe using them together would add negligible weight and likely solve your problem. Adding a foam pad as suggested would help, and the Gossamer Gear 1/4" pads are quite thin + warm.
Andrew Skurka's website is the best explanation of using the VB concept.
Good luck.
I'll give you a hundred bucks for it.
that's so mean. lol
Panzer (ps, i'll give you $110 for it.)
Blissful
03-27-2011, 20:16
Use a liner. Your bag is never good at the rating stated, esp if you get close to it, unless you are a warm sleeper. I use a 15 degree bag in that kind of weather and still go with a liner. Also using a tent adds degrees. And if it was windy, that will cut the temp rating too
Use a liner. Your bag is never good at the rating stated, esp if you get close to it, unless you are a warm sleeper. I use a 15 degree bag in that kind of weather and still go with a liner. Also using a tent adds degrees. And if it was windy, that will cut the temp rating too
An extra set of clothing is my liner. I used one a couple of times, got tangled up in it, then realized that fleece is fleece, silk is silk, cotton is cotton, etc. Plus I can walk around in a pair of pajamas or long johns, wear them to walk around camp, and even do laundry in them, if necessary. Liners are single purpose, though many people love them, and, s such, are dead weight while they are not being used for sleeping.
The best I can say for liners is that they make a good sleeping bag for when the weather gets stifling hot (in which case you may find yourself laying on top of them as much as in them).
See if you can borrow downmat and sleep on that.
If still cold you need a warmer bag. Some people are just cold sleepers.
I stayed warm at 14d under a golite ultra 20 in a hammock, so I guess I am lucky.
If you are warm on a downmat, then you need more ground insulation. Not enough ground insulation will suck the heat out of you.
You could try your pad on a CCF.
Be sure that you zip up the bag.
Trailweaver
03-27-2011, 20:34
I've found that no matter what the "rating" is on the bag, it's rated higher than it actually is. You could also try using a liner. I do agree that it sounds like your pad, though.
markmack
03-27-2011, 20:35
thanks for all the info guys, if the crappy weather holds out ill let you know next weekend
garlic08
03-27-2011, 20:57
try taking all those clothes off. your body heat warms up the air in your bag and the down keeps the heat in. With all that clothing, your body heat isn't getting the air inside the bag warm.
Happened to me in a shelter. My feet were freezing in my sleeping bag. Took off my socks and they were toasty warm in no time. Try it before you ditch a perfectly good bag.
I agree with this, though it might be completely wrong for you. Try it, though. The extra clothing might be too constricting. I can't wear any clothing besides underwear in my bag.
randyg45
03-27-2011, 21:20
Some people on here have made fun of the 2.5 r factor of the Neoair; the prolite is only 2.2. I don't think there's any doubt that you need a better pad at 20*
You may well need a longer pad also, imo. In 20* weather "put your pack under your feet doesn't work for me. Pay attention to your extremities. Down booties can warm your entire body, seemingly.
$125. Just send me your paypal address.
I did the boiling water in the Nalgene bottle thing in NJ during that big snow they had 2 Decembers ago and it works great.
Not sure what the temps were but definitely low teens without the wind chill.
Montbell 20* bag, down coat, wool toboggan, fleece gloves, 2 Nalgenes filled with boiling water and covered with a sock and I was warm as toast all night.
I had the opposite last weekend. Tried taking off my (slightly damp) socks and I didn't sleep too well. Put them back on and I was much warmer.
I agree with this, though it might be completely wrong for you. Try it, though. The extra clothing might be too constricting. I can't wear any clothing besides underwear in my bag.
Tipi Walter
03-27-2011, 22:37
What no one has mentioned here is that the temp rating on any bag is the SURVIVAL rating, NOT the comfort rating. You'll survive at the bag's rating but that doesn't mean you'll be warm. I use a 25 degree bag for summer and a -10 bag down for temps down to the 30's.
Pretty much agree on this observation. My summer bag is a 0F Marmot and my winter bag is the mentioned WM Puma at -15F. No down bag will be as warm and as lofted on a long trip as it is inside your house where it's totally warm and dry. And a good rule of thumb is to increase a bag's rating 15 degrees from the company stats: 15F bag should be good to 30F, etc. This is a real-world figure when bags get wet and flat with shelter condensation after a 7 day blizzard.
As far as Thermarest goes, I won't go out in the winter unless my pad's insulating number is at least around 5R. And if you really sleep cold, even with a 0F rated bag, check out the Exped downmat 9 at 8R. It will keep you warm, for sure.
2 winters ago, I was caught in an all out blizzard on top of Stratton Bald in Joyce Kilmer / Slickrock Wilderness - the temp was -4 degrees and the wind was blowing hard - no telling what the windchill was but I cooked mac-n-cheese and it was frozen before I could finish it - I had to break a lot of ice to get running water in a creek and everything was super hard. Anyway, I had a 5 degree down bag by Mountain Hardware which is really about a 15 degree bag so I was handicapped about 20 degrees - I boiled 2 full nalgene hot water bottles and hunkered down - the wind howled all night - my friend Alana and I tied our tents down (she did the water bottle thing too). She had a rough night but I was surprisingly warm - really, try it some cold night, it does work. Also make sure you pee before you go to bed so your body doesn't have to keep all that pee warm
I wonder if I saw you guys up there two years ago? I was in a blizzard too but probably down at Naked Ground or on the Hangover. Over the years I've seen all sorts of people bail off the Bob in "severe" winter storms. One time a woman backpacker bailed cuz her Prolite 4 was too thin for the frozen ground and she slept cold. Another time a hammocker bailed to his buddy's tent due to a high wind sleet storm which blew off his hammock's tarp and soaked and later froze his backpack. Another time I saw an ULer with a wind whipped tarp set up with some Boy Scouts and bailed into a friend's tent when he realized the reality of sleeping so exposed with spindrift.
if i had gotten in my bag naked last night i think i would have gone into shock lol cant wait to see how pissed she gets when i tell her im buying a WM puma for $600
I use the WM Puma for all of my winter trips and it has the microfiber shell and it's all I need for anything down to -10F. It's a perfect bag for Southeast winters.
Sleeping "naked" and staying "warmer" is like an old wives tale that gets bounced back and forth over the years. It is not true. First off, and beyond any warmth issues, it's a good idea to keep on your long john bottoms and polypro/capilene/merino tops to greatly increase inner bag shell cleanliness as it's a real hassle to frequently have to wash out a good down bag. Second, just go ahead and sleep naked at 0F and then get up to take a leak at 2am---you'll see quickly what a bad idea it is. And third, you should not wear too much clothing inside a down bag as it compresses the down from the inside out, reducing lofting warmth. A sleeping bag is like reserve ammo, you should have more than you need for those rough winter "fights" with the cold, and you should not have to resort to uncomfortable augmentaions like bag liners, VBL's, or wearing all your clothing just to stay warm in an attempt to carry a too-light bag.
Pedaling Fool
03-27-2011, 22:40
Be sure that you zip up the bag.
Best advice I've read on this thread.
From Papa D : " I had a flask of liquor too - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz". Liquor actually lowers your core temperature by causing your blood vessels to dialate, increasing blood frow to the skin, cooling it for it's return to the heart and other internal organs.
It may, however, help you get your zzzzzzzzzzz's. ;)
This sounds like good advice if you're outside, but if you're in a sleeping bag, wouldn't the reverse be true? If you're increasing blood flow to the skin while you're in the bag - especially if you're using a hot water bottle between your thighs - then wouldn't dilated blood vessels help bring that warmth to the surface of the skin and actually help to increase the efficiency of the sleeping bag?
Hey, like I need an excuse to drink, right? But I used this combo at 20 with a 15 degree bag that wasn't near the quality of WM. Was quite comfy with this combo, and yes the red wine did help me sleep. Note... I'm a hammocker who went to the ground due to the cold, so I really needed that red wine on the ground.
My guess is that the OP let himself get too cold, and then expected his bag to warm him up. Note... your own body heat is what makes the bag work. Got to find a way to transfer your body heat to the bag. Like others have said, too much clothing can prevent that from happening.
I missed the Thermarest ProLite bit...
(somehow I interpreted that as ProLite Plus ....)
The ProLite (yes it is rated around R2.2...) is really meant to be used above freezing, really 35f and up.
Of course you were cold....
Franco
BTW, inside the Ultralite (20f) and on top of the ProLite PLUS W (4.2 ?) I start to be cold with a wool top and bottom on at 20f
Not so if I have the Downmat 7
The mat is as important as the bag if you want to match the given WM rating.
Of course Tipi Walter is right that once the bag is damp it will lose loft/warmth. Not so much the first few nights.
Franco
mweinstone
03-27-2011, 23:34
markmak, their are alot of things you can do . the bag is fine. its you. you should have been sleeping in only one light pair of long undys with possibly your thick long undys instead but no sox and a hat.
A lot of heat escapes through your head. Make sure to wear a WARM pullover hat and keep your head cinched up in your bag.
ChinMusic
03-28-2011, 00:19
A lot of heat escapes through your head. Make sure to wear a WARM pullover hat and keep your head cinched up in your bag.
That's why I like to "under bag" and "over parka". I can cut down on bag weight and be warm at camp as well. Works well for me.
I have a Cheap down Sierra designs 30 degree F bag. Last year it dropped to around 35 degrees and I frozeeeeee to the point of being substantially sick the following morning. I had merino wool baselayers on but I had lost my cap on the days hike.
Fast foward a little under a year, I was on a trip around two weeks ago and decided to purchase the silk cocoon liner prior. The temp dropped to approximately 30 degrees and I wore my boxers, the liner, and a wool skullcap and was TOASTY. I can't be certain whether having a warm head was the major factor or the liner, but it was lovely.
make it $446. get a ccf pad from walmart for $6 and put it on top of your thermarest. you'll be set...
SassyWindsor
03-28-2011, 01:20
I'm not sure what the coldest temp I've camped in but sure the wind chill was well in the negative during the night. The outside temp was +4 F and winds where 10-20 knots at dusk, while setting up camp. I used a 0*F rated bag, a long bag to sto boots and clothing at the foot. The thing I found most helpful were a couple of hanging candle lanterns in a 4 season tent. Just the fact of being out of the wind was most helpful, I'm not sure how many degrees the lanterns raised the inside temp, probably not much, but it seemed to warm my spirits quite a lot. I slept very well.
Tipi - I don't think that I ran into you on that trip to Joyce Kilmer - I've spent cold nights on Bob Stratton Bald and really cold nights in the area - that night I mentioned was full-on - I've winter camped in Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming, you name it and I really never remember a night as cold and windy as that one - it was nuts - ambient temp at -4 but the wind was blowing a steady 30 mph - I bet the windchill was about -25 - we really are lucky not to have died up there that night
everyone mentioned something about my shot of liquor post and no, if you want to be as warm as you should be, hydrate, eat, pee, wear dry long johns, add a hot water bottle if you want to, use a pad, wear a hat, zip your bag up all the way, and don't drink liquor (it just DOES taste and feel good) - not the best idea though esp. if it is super cold
Mountain Mike
03-28-2011, 04:41
One thing not mentioned here is to make sure not to breath inside your bag. Use a scarf, neckgaitor of what ever else if air feel cold but don't stick uour head completely in your bag. It may seem warm for a while but moisture in your breath quickly degrades insulation preformance. I also agree with most of points here. Proper ground insulation. Down compress under you does no good, a good pad is needed. CCF is light & cheap. I still love a thermarest for comfort & use a full lenght ccf + thermarest in winter. Try to go to bed warm & well fed & hydrated. Pee before bed to empty bladder & so you hopefully don't have to get up at night. A couple of hot water botttles help a lot & beats trying to thaw them out in am when you want to cook.
Trailbender
03-28-2011, 06:59
Geez at 20°, I am comfortable barefoot with my Nunatak Skaha in my 30° bag......
You must sleep cold.
I am comfortable in a 0 bag in 30 degrees.
To summarize and editorialize on the preceding advice:
1) You probably were being chilled from below by the pad. Try a thin CCF pad on top of the other one.
2) Add warmth around your head and neck with hat and neck gaiter or balaclava. Make sure you cinch the draft collar around your neck and the hood around your head. Adding a scarf (which can be improvised from a shirt) will help, too.
3) Eat a hot meal and drink hot beverages before you go to bed. Make sure you've taken in enough calories to keep your furnace from burning all the fuel before morning. In exceptional situations, it's worthwhile to eat extra meals: 5 pm; 9 pm; 3 am; 7 am.
4) Make sure you are warm BEFORE you get in the bag. If you've been lolling around in the night air, standing around a campfire until your feet and hands are numb, you'll never warm up no matter how thick your sleeping bag is.
5) Hot water bottles are fabulous. Make sure you have a good Nalgene that won't warp or crack when you put boiling water in it. Before you put it in the bag, turn it upside down and check for drips or leaks. You do not want to get the sleeping bag wet. On super-cold nights I use two Nalgenes--one for the groin and one for the feet.
6) Do check the fit of the sleeping bag. Lie down in it and look for places that are stretched tight. See if you can rearrange the fabric so you get proper loft.
7) If you wake up needing to pee, just do it. Though it seems illogical, the longer you lie there with a full bladder, the colder you'll feel. Unzipping the bag and taking care of business will allow you to become much warmer once you get back in the bag.
8) If your feet got sweaty during the day, it's helpful to clean them off, maybe even with Purell, and put on clean socks.
9) Choose your campsite with care, looking for a place out of the wind and at the lowest elevation you can reasonably achieve. If you've got a well-ventilated tent, do what you can to block some of the mesh with dry leaves or your pack or whatever you can come up with.
10) Keep experimenting. Being uncomfortable is not the same as being in danger. Ideally you'll be able to get out frequently. It's hard to build up a good body of knowledge if you only spend one or two nights a year outside.
Good luck!
And if you decide to sell the bag, my offer is $5 more than everyone else's. ;-)
Tipi Walter
03-28-2011, 09:26
Tipi - I don't think that I ran into you on that trip to Joyce Kilmer - I've spent cold nights on Bob Stratton Bald and really cold nights in the area - that night I mentioned was full-on - I've winter camped in Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming, you name it and I really never remember a night as cold and windy as that one - it was nuts - ambient temp at -4 but the wind was blowing a steady 30 mph - I bet the windchill was about -25 - we really are lucky not to have died up there that night
It's good to know that other backpackers have experienced the wind and cold of "The Bob". I've spent so many winter nights up there yet people still wonder why I recommend four season tents and NOT tarps or hammocks. Below are a few pertinent fotogs of the Bob:
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/4861/tj4861%5F102706%5F062307%5F191414.jpg
Here's two backpackers I ran into up on the Bob in December 2003 and they said they didn't bring the "proper gear". They bailed early the next morning.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/4861/tj4861%5F102706%5F062854%5F191416.jpg
Here's a picture of my old Muir Trail tent atop the Bob on the same trip of 2003. I spent five days here in a butt cold blizzard.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/5046/tj5046%5F111506%5F121155%5F195041.jpg
In January 2006 I run into some backpackers huddling up to a blowdown on the Bob and trying to get out of a very bad wind, the same windstorm which bent one of my Hilleberg tent poles.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/6843/tj6843%5F112608%5F173230%5F404130.jpg
In November 2008 I run into these backpackers on the Bob in a tough sleetstorm with high winds.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/6843/tj6843%5F112808%5F081526%5F404426.jpg
Here's the same crew getting off the mountain on the next day.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F012409%5F093836%5F415253.jpg
Then in January 2009 a group of boy scouts pass thru and spend one night and one with a thermometer tells me it's -1F.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F021609%5F092249%5F417879.jpg
Then in February 2009 it gets -5F and I set up on the Hangover and greet a new day.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F110809%5F123421%5F500827.jpg
Then in October 2009 I run into a freakish cold wind ice storm and find this little tent set up on top of the Bob.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F111109%5F085602%5F501310.jpg
My tent is set up below and gets walloped in a 3 day ice storm with butt cold winds.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F111509%5F081858%5F501540.jpg
Some boy scouts come up later and get caught in the same sleetstorm and they pack up after one night and get out.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F111509%5F082109%5F501541.jpg
These guys were camped nearby, too, but had a decent Trango tent to survive the night.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F111509%5F082625%5F501543.jpg
It was a busy time on the Bob in October, since most people came up to see the leaves change but got caught in a rough sleetstorm. These two girls are from Nashville and stop on their way out. The guy on the left looks like he's at 27,000 feet and wearing oxygen. A favorite fotog.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F111509%5F084359%5F501549.jpg
Another group comes up to survey the wind kingdom. The mountain in the back is Huckleberry at 5,700 feet.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F123009%5F201807%5F506286.jpg
In December 2009 a small group from Chattanooga show up and one guy uses a tarp which gets swamped in spindrift and so he lowers it.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F123009%5F202258%5F506288.jpg
The Chattanooga group in a cold snowstorm.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F123009%5F202718%5F506290.jpg
Here I am in the same snowstorm and thankful for my four season tent.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498%5F123009%5F202913%5F506291.jpg
Another group sets up below me and they get hit by the same cold storm.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065%5F012810%5F083313%5F510071.jpg
Here's the Bob in a January 2010 snowstorm, or after a snowstorm.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065%5F012810%5F083758%5F510073.jpg
This was a very cold trip and some dayhikers can't stand the butt cold wind chills in the subzero range.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065%5F012810%5F085227%5F510080.jpg
A very cold morning at -5F.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065%5F022310%5F083715%5F512556.jpg
In February 2010 I get caught in yet another cold blizzard on the Bob.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065%5F022310%5F084110%5F512558.jpg
My buddy's camp during the same trip.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065%5F123110%5F101717%5F593396.jpg
December 2010 snowstorm with a new red Hilleberg tent.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065%5F123110%5F102002%5F593399.jpg
The Bob gets walloped again. Dec 2010.
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065%5F123110%5F102547%5F593403.jpg
And finally, here I am getting off the Bob in a tough snowstorm. The hard part was belly crawling under all the "SNOWDOWNS!" What are snowdowns? It's when all the brush and rhodo leans heavy onto the trail with snow. There's more but I won't bore ya.
Tenderheart
03-28-2011, 10:00
Make sure your pad is fully inflated and sleep on your stomach. This position is the warmest. Trust me!
litefoot 2000
4eyedbuzzard
03-28-2011, 10:43
Great photos Tipi W!
Hmm, I have a WM Caribou that's rated to 35 and I'd say from limited experience (only bought it last year) it's a pretty accurate comfort rating with my normal thin base layer, socks, and hat on.
Agree with others on ground pad and also chilling effect of wind if not sheltered.
try taking all those clothes off. your body heat warms up the air in your bag and the down keeps the heat in. With all that clothing, your body heat isn't getting the air inside the bag warm.
Happened to me in a shelter. My feet were freezing in my sleeping bag. Took off my socks and they were toasty warm in no time. Try it before you ditch a perfectly good bag.
This is good advice....and true.
I can't help think that I was up in the Catskills a few weeks ago in a $70 Kelty bag and a $80 Prolite Plus. $150 kept me warm.
Fiddleback
03-28-2011, 13:56
While I have slept comfortably in much colder temps I still have cold toes most of the time. But then, when I started in Scouts way back into the previous century I had cold toes. Everynow and then I have cold toes in the house. It's just me...I don't even blame poor circulation since that's not an issue. For me, it's just a fact of life.
But cold in all the aforementioned gear and clothing? Wow! Could it me that with all the stuff listed in the sleep system it's too warm? Are toes and feet getting wet with perspiration? Is it possible one could be warmer with less?
FB
skinewmexico
03-28-2011, 15:15
I admire you for being able to thrive in those crappy conditions Tipi, but I have to say that doesn't look like one bit of fun to me.
slept out last night got down to 20F which is what my WM alpine light is rated to and i was on my therma rest pro light pad, wow was i cold. i had on rocky heavy weight base layer, smartwool socks and a beanie. if i laid on my back my feet got cold, if i laid on my side my side got cold. this is my first year with this bag and i am kinda disapointed i had hoped spending the money on whats suposed to be the best i would be warm.
I'm coming in late to this discussion, so I hope I don't ask the same questions:
What side was cold? The side on the bottom? What part of your feet were cold? The heels?
My point is this: If area above you is "cold", then you either don't have enough loft or your internal heater didn't switch on. If the area under you is cold then you need to beef up your sleeping pad system.
I use two CCF pads at that temp. Because I quilt, I wear a lot on my head and down booties on my feet at those temps. And as I get older, it gets harder to switch on the internal heater without eating, drinking and exercise.
Rain Man
03-28-2011, 16:10
slept out last night got down to 20F which is what my WM alpine light is rated to ... i am kinda disapointed i had hoped spending the money on whats suposed to be the best i would be warm.
Sounds as if you are confusing the "survival" rating for a "comfort" rating?
Rain Man
.
I don't know... from what I read if it's a 20 bag guys should be OK at 20, women at 30, and then the survival rating would be 10.
Sounds as if you are confusing the "survival" rating for a "comfort" rating?
Rain Man
.
Since it's a WM bag, I'm guessing that's not the case. It seems more likely to me that it's the pad, and the lack of insulation from underneath, that's the cause of the problem.
Sounds as if you are confusing the "survival" rating for a "comfort" rating?
Rain Man
.
Tipi Walter
03-28-2011, 17:56
I admire you for being able to thrive in those crappy conditions Tipi, but I have to say that doesn't look like one bit of fun to me.
What, you don't get giddy camping in the snow??
What, you don't get giddy camping in the snow??
I know. It is hard to believe that some people don't enjoy it like we do. While the photos are great, being there is so much better. I regularly get in the negatives up in the Adirondacks with some significant wind and snow. I am comfy warm in my hammock in winter tarp mode.
markmack
03-28-2011, 18:35
Sounds as if you are confusing the "survival" rating for a "comfort" rating?
Rain Man
.
thats what the bag is sold as, a 20F bag.
Tipi - thanks for your great photos - if you think it is going to be real cold on Bob Stratton Bald, subtract 10 or 15 degrees and you'll be close - winter there can be absolutely brutal
Walkintom
03-28-2011, 21:01
Another thought: add a lot more potassium to your diet. Oranges and bananas are good natural sources. There are tons more out there, too.
When I first took a job working long shifts in a -20 freezer this changed my metabolism from getting frostnipped fingers to wearing minimal freezer gear and not being bothered by the cold.
I thought it was just a bunch of talk when a coworker gave me that advice but after eating several of each fruit daily for about three weeks it really kicked in.
As several pointed out already (including me eventually...) an R2.2 mat is totally inadequate at 20f.
It is like wearing a puffy down jacket and shorts then complaining that the jacket does not work because your legs are cold...
Franco
camper10469
03-28-2011, 21:51
Use a closed cell foam pad under your air matress and you won't feel cold next time.
Use a closed cell foam pad under your air matress and you won't feel cold next time.
Under will help, but on top is better. The more thermally efficient pad should be against your body, not the less efficient one.
RITBlake
03-29-2011, 10:28
try taking all those clothes off. your body heat warms up the air in your bag and the down keeps the heat in. With all that clothing, your body heat isn't getting the air inside the bag warm.
Happened to me in a shelter. My feet were freezing in my sleeping bag. Took off my socks and they were toasty warm in no time. Try it before you ditch a perfectly good bag.
Great advice. Works like a charm.
skinewmexico
03-29-2011, 12:49
What, you don't get giddy camping in the snow??
Nope, not camping anyway. Not sure I get giddy about anything anymore.
SassyWindsor
03-29-2011, 23:55
Someone mentioned neck-gaiter, this is probably the best piece of winter gear I have, I use children's sized for a tighter fit. Other winter accessories/items I find very helpful are Polypro gloves worn under gtx mittens and Low-gaiters over my boots.
You were using a 20°F bag in 20°F weather. I believe the rating is fairly accurate since it has about the same amount of down that other bags have, and this company uses high quality down. Since you were right on the margin, you would have to be that average user the specs are made for and do everything right. That is, be dry, well fed, not overly hydrated, fit well and don't make drafts. You can extend the range by wearing a jacket, booties and balaclava, preferably all in down.
As others have said, your Prolite pad was severely deficient. A pad with an R-value of 5 would be about right. You can get close to that by adding a Walmart blue ccf pad to your pad, ideally on top of it. You can also get more warmth by using good campsite selection on putting your pad over a thick layer of dry forest duff. If you plan on spending many nights at 20°F or colder, you may just want to get a warmer pad.
Rocket Jones
03-30-2011, 06:16
Someone mentioned neck-gaiter, this is probably the best piece of winter gear I have, I use children's sized for a tighter fit. Other winter accessories/items I find very helpful are Polypro gloves worn under gtx mittens and Low-gaiters over my boots.
The Polar Buff (http://www.planetbuff.com/Polar-Buff) has a fleece sleeve at one end. It can work as a neck gaiter as needed. I've been wearing mine every day this winter. Not affiliated, just a happy customer.
I agree with many of the posters above that you need a better pad. I recently got the Neo-air and sleep warmer becasue of it.....
ChinMusic
03-30-2011, 17:34
I agree with many of the posters above that you need a better pad. I recently got the Neo-air and sleep warmer becasue of it.....
At what temp did you test out the Neo?
If you ever run into Tipi Walter in the woods (and I have on several occasions) you will not forget it - he is a classy mountain man - he wouldn't win any ultra light backpacking awards though - bet his "base-weight" is 40 pounds !!! - but that sucker sleeps warm. As the old adage goes, "the more comfortable you sleep, the less comfortable you walk" - you can turn that phrase the other way too.
If you ever run into Tipi Walter in the woods (and I have on several occasions) you will not forget it - he is a classy mountain man - he wouldn't win any ultra light backpacking awards though - bet his "base-weight" is 40 pounds !!! - but that sucker sleeps warm. As the old adage goes, "the more comfortable you sleep, the less comfortable you walk" - you can turn that phrase the other way too.
Legend has it he carries a hoop of cheese around his neck and pulls a sled with half cord of seasoned oak firewood on it. :)
Trailbender
03-31-2011, 23:43
As others have said, your Prolite pad was severely deficient. A pad with an R-value of 5 would be about right. You can get close to that by adding a Walmart blue ccf pad to your pad, ideally on top of it. You can also get more warmth by using good campsite selection on putting your pad over a thick layer of dry forest duff. If you plan on spending many nights at 20°F or colder, you may just want to get a warmer pad.
I used a blue ridgerest pad on my thru in 10 degree weather, the R value is around 3, and it was plenty warm enough. I have used that pad year round, down to zero or so with no issues. The green one, I could feel the cold through the pad. I sleep cold as well.
5 would probably be more than enough.