Methanol & Ethyl Alcohol come from Fossil Fuels, Who knew?

[Leanthree]

So in a thread in the Straight Forward portion of this site, a poster mentioned that they liked to use Alcohol because it doesnt require the use of fossil fuels. I figured a new thread would be appropriate.

That comment sparked me to go find out how the methanol which is sold as HEET and a denaturing agent in denatured ethyl alcohol is produced. It led me down a path on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol#Feedstock) that shows that methyl alcohol using Natural Gas as the raw ingredient while the Ethyl Alcohol for industrial purposes (which is where I would guess is where the stuff in the hardware store comes from) comes predominantly as a byproduct of petroleum production from crude oil.

Sorry to crush any of your dreams of a great fossil fuel free alcohol fueled utopia. I would think that ethyl alcohol meant for human consumption (everclear) would be the only renewable source of alcohol readily available

[hikerboy57]

there are plenty of sources of alcohol that dont involve fossil fuels. In a "free" market society, economics will dictate energy policy.I sell cars, and when gas hit $4.50/gal 3 years ago, everyone rushed in to trade in their SUVs for hybrids. Within a year, gas was back under $2/gal, and SUVs were selling like hotcakes all over again. we have very short memories.Very few people would be willing to change their habits unless they were forced to.The dream of weaning ourselves completely off fossil fuels is , for now ,just a dream, but every little bit helps. The planet only has a set amount of natural resources.

[leaftye]

there are plenty of sources of alcohol that dont involve fossil fuels. In a "free" market society, economics will dictate energy policy.I sell cars, and when gas hit $4.50/gal 3 years ago, everyone rushed in to trade in their SUVs for hybrids. Within a year, gas was back under $2/gal, and SUVs were selling like hotcakes all over again. we have very short memories.Very few people would be willing to change their habits unless they were forced to.The dream of weaning ourselves completely off fossil fuels is , for now ,just a dream, but every little bit helps. The planet only has a set amount of natural resources.

Yet full size trucks were still the best selling vehicle. It was only dethroned for a couple months while prices were rising. Even prices didn't go down at all, trucks retook the throne. Their position at #1 only became stronger when prices eventually did fall.

[Franco]

It depends were you are. here in Australia and most of Europe we use ethanol (ethyl alcohol) not methanol.
Ours is made from sugar cane, about $3.50 per liter.
Of course this is the denatured type.5% ethanol plus stuff.. ( standard 10%GST /VAT)
In South America they also use sugar cane for it, in Europe it is usually made from grapes.
Yours is of course made from corn. About 7 billion gallons are produced from corn over there every year.
Of course you need fuel to produce ethanol from any of the above...but I don't really think that most alcohol users do that as an environmental choice, they (we) just prefer it (not always) over gas or wood or Esbit or white gas ....
Franco

[JAK]

Good thing this isn't in the straightforward section, because it is anything but. All good points above. Even ethanol that comes from corn or some other crops, perhaps not so much sugar can, have alot of fossil fuels go into their production. Nitrogen fertilizers are made primarily from natural gas, unless you go organic and use manure and stuff. Then there are drying processes and distillation if turned into alcohol, which may or may not use fossil fuels. The only thing that will reduce the use of fossil fuels is increased cost of fossil fuels. The consumer cannot easily determine how much fossil fuels go into any product. Most North Americans use as much fossil fuels in their food production as for fueling their vehicles.

The best bet is to simply reduce energy use as much as possible, regardless of what the energy source is. Still doesn't make it easy to make lower carbon food choices, or clothing choices. I think the safest bet is simply what is cheapest. More often than not it will have less energy in its production.

Sticks are a safe bet, least global impact for camp fuel, as long as the local impact is not an issue.

[mkmangold]

Good thing this isn't in the straightforward section, because it is anything but. All good points above. Even ethanol that comes from corn or some other crops, perhaps not so much sugar can, have alot of fossil fuels go into their production... The best bet is to simply reduce energy use as much as possible, regardless of what the energy source is. Still doesn't make it easy to make lower carbon food choices, or clothing choices. I think the safest bet is simply what is cheapest. More often than not it will have less energy in its production.

Sticks are a safe bet, least global impact for camp fuel, as long as the local impact is not an issue.

Here in the Midwest corn production is almost totally for feed corn, which goes into lot-fed cattle and ethanol production. Both businesses are subsidized and the last I looked, it cost more to make corn ethanol than it does to sell it.
I agree that sticks are a safe bet and I'm working on perfecting my WoodGas Stove abilities. Zelph has a woodburner, too that I haven't tried yet mainly because I bought the WoodGas first. At some point in the past, I carried a clear Nalgene bottle that I painted black on one side. At home, I was able to get the water inside up to 110 degrees or so on a sunny March day but solar is too unpredictable. And the Nalgene was made of BPA so I ditched it.
A HUGE overlooked source of starches for alcohol production is in field beets (or "mangels" or "Mangolds," no lie). They are low maintenance, can be grown in marginal soils, and get huge. They're also edible to humans and feed corn is not.

[WingedMonkey]

All the alcohol burners think they are burning wood alcohol. NOT

[Persistent]

There is only one synthetic ethanol producer in the US, the LyondellBasell plant in Illinois. They make it from ethylene which is sourced from LPG (liquified petroleum gas - mostly ethane and propane) feedstock olefin crackers also located in the Midwest. The remainder of the US based ethanol production is fermentation ethanol made almost exclusively from corn. There is a large amount of imported ethanol brought into the US from all over the world but it is mostly fermentation grade. There are still a few synthetic producers left in Europe also.
Synthetic ethanol is mostly used in cosmetics and pharmaceutical applications because of the fear of odors and small concentration impurities from fermentation ethanol in those applications. So it is very, very unlikely that any of the synthetic ethanol would make it into cooking fuel. I know LyondellBasell doesn't sell into that industry because I worked for them (and predecessor companies) for quite a while.
Persistent

[ScottP]

Making 1 unit of ethanol from corn requires around .9 of a unit in fossil fuels.

[Fiddleback]

...In a "free" market society, economics will dictate energy policy.

Except our 'free market' is hugely skewed and energy prices do not reflect true costs of the energy. From environmental degradation to energy company subsidies to providing 'security' to oil sources in the Middle East...none of that is reflected in energy costs. Throw in energy 'favorites', e.g., Congress' favoring one fuel over another, and the 'free market' bogs down even further. Shoot...energy policy even favors/chooses which flora is used to maker our alchohol fuel, a choice made with more political considerations than economic, e.g., our tariffs on sugar-based, Brazilian alky.

I'm a firm believer in the efficiency of the free market but when it comes to energy, such markets are on the endangered species list.

FYI, I saw a report this week that says the U.S. has dropped to third in e clean energy investment...behind Germany (!) and China. Sigh.

FB