View Full Version : How much weight saving with Alcohol stove?
earlyriser26
03-31-2011, 05:46
I have a MSR Pocket Rocket which I love. Most my hikes are just a few days. How much weight could I save and what are the negatives of this type of stove. Do I have to make one or can I buy one?
Rocket Jones
03-31-2011, 06:16
I have a MSR Pocket Rocket which I love. Most my hikes are just a few days. How much weight could I save and what are the negatives of this type of stove. Do I have to make one or can I buy one?
You can save a fair bit of weight over the short term with an alcohol stove, but after a few days it evens out and the canister stove becomes the better option. Someone did a chart showing why, but I don't have the link handy.
Broadly speaking, with a canister stove you can cook, whereas with an alcohol stove you're limited to boiling water. A canister stove is also better if you're cooking for more than one person.
You can buy alcohol stoves, but they're fun (and addicting) to make your own. I carry a Super Cat, which is dead simple to make.
Many people say that alcohol stoves can't simmer. They can. When you want the flames to go down, add a few drops of water to your stove.
nitewalker
03-31-2011, 07:53
stick with the pocket rocket. i have used both and the pocket rocket seems to satisfy my needs a little easier and quicker...
Blissful
03-31-2011, 09:39
Pocket rocket is an awesome stove and very reliable. Takes a lot of fuel in wind though. The MSR canisters are junk, imo. I like either jet boil or snoewpeak. This year though I am going with the lighter weight Snowpeak version, have yet to try it out.
My homemade alcohol stove weighs 1/4 ounce. Also a homemade windscreen that weighs about the same. I have an 8oz bottle of fuel. When full it's probably heavy as a canister. It's weight goes down as I use the stove. If I'm only going out for a few days, I only need a small amount of fuel. I can't see how a canister stove can ever be lighter than this. But for a longer distance, I would have to carry more fuel and maybe then the weight would even out, but I rarely go for longer than 5 days.
you can make one for virtually free. I'm not much of a crafstman so I just use the 'supercat' version--the easiest one to make that I've found. No reason not to try one for a trip and see how you like it.
i like the DIY aspect of alcohol stoves, but i find that i like making them a whole lot more than using them. you can make them simmer but it isn't nearly as easy as getting one to boil. with lipton, knorr and products like that, sticking to the bottom of the pan becomes an issue, and that means washing dishes can be a little more difficult. i'll stick with the super fly on long trips.
Many people say that alcohol stoves can't simmer. They can. When you want the flames to go down, add a few drops of water to your stove.
I made a simmer ring for my Supercat out of a section of a Heineken can. It's 1" high, 3" across and weighs 3 grams. My Supercat weighs 7 grams.
Btw: not to anyone in particular, but the spelling above is correct for the usage of the measurement of weight.
Weight is the noun.
Weigh is the verb.
Weighs is the adjective, not weights. Weights is the plural of the noun.
There may be exceptions. This is American English, after all ;).
The simmer ring works by 1) bringing water up to a boil,then 2) lifting the pot off of the stove and placing the ring over (around) the stove. It limits the flow of O2 to the stove, slowing the combustion and making the stove "run" cooler (and longer).
Here: http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/2/5/0/2/picture_378_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=43664&c=member&imageuser=2502)
I would say that a canister stove might be better for colder weather since it puts more btu's directly to the pot (and contents), so it stays ahead of the cooling effects of the ambient temperature and wind better than the cooler burning alcohol. You may find that you burn so much alcohol to heat the same amount of water that you are actually carrying more fuel weight than with a cannister stove in those types of conditions.
Either way, if you keep your fuel warm (stuff canister or alcohol bottle inside your jacket or sleeping bag - with you, the heat source, of course), and use a well-designed windscreen you will use less fuel to heat/cook than if the fuel has to heat itself to work well.
Here: http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/2/5/0/2/picture_378_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=43664&c=member&imageuser=2502)
Oops, duplicate post :o.
How to cook pasta without sticking:
Boil the water BEFORE putting in the pasta. It only has to be pretty close to boiling.
Remove from heat when it hits a rolling boil.
Wrap pot in hats and scarves.
Wait 15 minutes to 2 hours. Eat and enjoy.
After having tried pretty much everything I use esbit 95% of the time. No container to carry, doesn't spill, and if push comes to shove you can make a stove by digging a little hole for the esbit and using 2 sticks as a pot stand.
garlic08
03-31-2011, 13:52
In my experience, the alcohol gets heavier as a system if you carry more than 10 oz of alcohol. So if you're the typical PCT thru hiker and boil water for one meal a day and carry 6 or 8 oz max, you do very well with alky. Can't beat the price, either. The stove is better than free--you take a little trash out of the system.
But if you're a base camper out for two weeks and you cook three meals a day including melting snow, alky is not a good bet--you'd need a half gallon of it.
This might be the graph that was mentioned above: http://thru-hiker.com/articles/stoveweight_vs_time_14days.php
Lots of hikers really get into designing and making their own stoves. But no, you don't have to. Ideally, find someone to make one for you.
Alky is a little more finicky than gas, but you can do a lot with it with a little practice, like adding water to the fuel, making various simmer rings, etc. I've been able to simmer rice with a little care. I've also enjoyed my alky stove in adverse winter conditions above 10,000' and it works great for melting snow on overnighters.
If there were one ideal stove, there wouldn't be so many of them. There's a nice comparison of stoves on www.pmags.com, too.
I also use the SuperCat stove. I got the hole pattern off zenstoves. I use the small 3.5 oz can that everyone uses, and the stove weighs .2 oz. The hole punch cost me a dollar at the Dollar Store, and the 3.5 oz cat food can was two for a dollar.
Freedom Walker
04-01-2011, 21:18
After having tried pretty much everything I use esbit 95% of the time. No container to carry, doesn't spill, and if push comes to shove you can make a stove by digging a little hole for the esbit and using 2 sticks as a pot stand.
I may be taking a risk of asking a dumb queation, but what is esbit?
I may be taking a risk of asking a dumb queation, but what is esbit?
Not dumb at all! :)
Esbit is a form of solid fuel that is more friendly to use, safer and less toxic then the trioxanne (sp?) found in the military surplus store. Roughly .50 a tab (less if bought in bulk) that takes ~7 minutes to boil water (plus/minus). It is very light, not dangerous, and works well for the simple 'boil and cook' meals. It is somewhat expensive, can be hard to find at times, and is not the ideal choice if you want to do more than boil two cups of water.
As Garlic said, there is no 'best' stove. That's why many experienced outdoors people will often use a different stove for different needs. (Or no stove at all!)
Here's the direct link Garlic mentioned:
http://www.pmags.com/stove-comparison-real-world-use
To summarize the article:
Remember…it is just a stove at the end of the day. Gear is the least important part of backpacking. No matter stove you use, the mountain ranges are awesome, the sunsets are grand and those wildflower blooms will be gorgeous. Take what works and enjoy! :)
earlyriser26
04-01-2011, 21:47
Made a super cat and will try it. See how long it takes to boil water vs. my pocket rocket and the weight of fuel needed. Kind of fun playing around with it. Going out next month and maybe I will give it a try. Thanks for the input.
Kerosene
04-01-2011, 22:36
For section hikes of 5-10 days I lean toward a canister stove with a small- or medium-sized canister. For shorter hikes I will go with my Zelph Starlyte alkie setup. If I was to do a longer hike (haven't done anything more than 10 days in 30 years) I would likely bring an alcohol stove, primarily for ease of re-supply.
Check out Zelph's store at: http://www.bplite.com/viewforum.php?f=59
earlyriser26
04-02-2011, 09:33
How much fule per cup of cold water in a super cat? say you are boiling 4 cups of cold water.
earlyriser26
04-02-2011, 09:34
How much fule per cup of cold water in a super cat? say you are boiling 4 cups of cold water.
I can spell, just not type.
everyone has their own experiences and their specific needs dictate stove choice. Even if pure weight is the metric you want, the person, specific stove etc... are still variables. here is a calculator in which you can change the inputs to determine "your" total weight, and avg daily weight with various stove setups.
http://www.howardjohnson.name/Backpacking/Stove/Stoves.htm
mountainboogey
04-02-2011, 10:23
I also have a pocket rocket. It weights 3oz + pot (MSR Titan) 4.2oz + 8oz fuel canister = 15.2 oz total cooking weight.
the only thing that would change if you had an alchy stove is the stove. depending on materials, you could shed 2 oz of that weight. If you think 2oz is worth a finiky and unstable (imo) setup, then go for it.
Also consider the new jetboil SOL TI. It weighs 8.5 oz(stove and pot system) + 8oz fuel = 16.5 oz. It takes the same amount of time to boil 1 liter, but its twice as efficient...making the need for finding fuel less frequent - I guess half as frequent :)
markmack
04-02-2011, 10:45
i have soto ul stove and alky, after using the soto ill never use alky again if i can help it, soto is i think 2.4oz and i used it down to 5F and it worked perfect. no more messing with alky for me
Not dumb at all! :)
Esbit is a form of solid fuel that is more friendly to use, safer and less toxic then the trioxanne (sp?) found in the military surplus store. Roughly .50 a tab (less if bought in bulk) that takes ~7 minutes to boil water (plus/minus). It is very light, not dangerous, and works well for the simple 'boil and cook' meals. It is somewhat expensive, can be hard to find at times, and is not the ideal choice if you want to do more than boil two cups of water.
As Garlic said, there is no 'best' stove. That's why many experienced outdoors people will often use a different stove for different needs. (Or no stove at all!)
Here's the direct link Garlic mentioned:
http://www.pmags.com/stove-comparison-real-world-use
To summarize the article:
Remember…it is just a stove at the end of the day. Gear is the least important part of backpacking. No matter stove you use, the mountain ranges are awesome, the sunsets are grand and those wildflower blooms will be gorgeous. Take what works and enjoy! :)
I also use Esbit, but lately I've switched to Coghlan's Fuel Tablets. Two tablets weigh about the same as one Esbit tab, cost a little less, and burn about the same amount of time. A major advantage of Coghlan's over Esbit is the ability to burn one tab to boil a cup of water instead of having to cut an Esbit tab in half, or blow it out after the water boils. It's also easier to find in stores. In any case, in the long run carrying fuel tabs (Esbit or Coghlan's) will save weight.
Jim Adams
04-02-2011, 17:22
none...alcohol weighs too much.
I can't imagine lugging around alcohol that I can't drink!
geek
tigerpaw
04-02-2011, 22:17
If that's the case, why not carry Everclear...it's 95% ethanol. You can always drink what you don't burn, if you can afford the stuff.
How much fule per cup of cold water in a super cat? say you are boiling 4 cups of cold water.
I routinely heat 16-20 oz. of water per meal. Since alcohol doesn't burn as hot as white gas or canister stoves, cold temperatures and wind play a larger factor on how much fuel is necessary to boil that amount of water. On a typical warm summer morning I can boil the above amount in 5-7 minutes with 1/2 - 3/4 oz. of fuel. If it's colder I need more fuel because it takes longer. In the winter using alcohol most efficiently requires that you keep the fuel and water as warm as you can before you begin to cook. This means keeping them either inside your jacket or sleeping with them at night. I almost never have a hot meal at lunchtime, so I don't have to walk with my water and alcohol inside my jacket. I just do that when I reach camp.
A good windscreen can make a huge difference in how well your alcohol stove performs.
There should be between 1/4" and 1/2" between your pot and the screen for the greatest efficiency. More and you lose heat to the air, less and you starve the stove of air, making it run like a gas engine with the choke on.
mountainboogey
04-03-2011, 17:51
I also have a pocket rocket. It weights 3oz + pot (MSR Titan) 4.2oz + 8oz fuel canister = 15.2 oz total cooking weight.
the only thing that would change if you had an alchy stove is the stove. depending on materials, you could shed 2 oz of that weight. If you think 2oz is worth a finiky and unstable (imo) setup, then go for it.
Also consider the new jetboil SOL TI. It weighs 8.5 oz(stove and pot system) + 8oz fuel = 16.5 oz. It takes the same amount of time to boil 1 liter, but its twice as efficient...making the need for finding fuel less frequent - I guess half as frequent :)
i have a correction. an empty fuel canister weighs 5oz...(info given to me on another post - thanks)
so 3oz stove +4.2 oz pot + 13oz fuel and canister = 20 oz...yea it is a bit heavy, but i like the easy set up.
JollyRogers
04-16-2011, 23:45
i like the DIY aspect of alcohol stoves, but i find that i like making them a whole lot more than using them. you can make them simmer but it isn't nearly as easy as getting one to boil. with lipton, knorr and products like that, sticking to the bottom of the pan becomes an issue, and that means washing dishes can be a little more difficult. i'll stick with the super fly on long trips.
I carry a small bottle of extra-virgin olive oil. Add 1tsp or so to the water when you put it on the stove and this keeps the lipton/knorr type products from sticking to the pot.
randyg45
04-17-2011, 11:00
How can "weighs" ever be an adjective?
randyg45
04-17-2011, 11:01
Two words: Bushbuddy. :)
Weightless, unlimited fuel. Easy heat control.
Feral Bill
04-17-2011, 13:59
I made a simmer ring for my Supercat out of a section of a Heineken can. It's 1" high, 3" across and weighs 3 grams. My Supercat weighs 7 grams.
Btw: not to anyone in particular, but the spelling above is correct for the usage of the measurement of weight.
Weight is the noun.
Weigh is the verb.
Weighs is the adjective, not weights. Weights is the plural of the noun.
There may be exceptions. This is American English, after all ;).
The simmer ring works by 1) bringing water up to a boil,then 2) lifting the pot off of the stove and placing the ring over (around) the stove. It limits the flow of O2 to the stove, slowing the combustion and making the stove "run" cooler (and longer).
Gram is not a measure of weight, it's a measure of mass. Newton is the measure of weight, as in "I carried 8 newtons of figs on my last hike".
Jack Tarlin
04-17-2011, 15:11
What none of the posts above have mentioned is that you can cook larger meals (i.e. ones that require more heated water) much more efficiently with a cannister stove, and regardless of the amount of water being heated, you'll be
done cooking your meal and will be eating it much sooner than the guys with the beer can. For many folks, the idea of a more efficient stove and a quicker one is worth the extra weight, which in many cases, is negligible in any case. If enjoying a over-sized dinner, and enjoying it five to ten minutes earlier every night means paying a weight penalty of a few miserable ounces, well to me it seems well worth it. (Oh, and several folks made reference to fuel canisters weighing 8 ounces. It should be remembered that the smaller cans weigh considerably less).
88BlueGT
04-17-2011, 19:35
If you want to get a soda can stove to simmer just make a simmer ring for the outside flame holes and just the center will simmer. Extremely simple. Ive never ever ever had a problem with my alky stove, just make sure you have a good windscreen. As far as my pot stand goes, I measured it (height/width) to best fit my pot and with most efficient boiling times. I forget exactly but its somewhere around 2.5-3 min? for 2 cups.
What none of the posts above have mentioned is that you can cook larger meals (i.e. ones that require more heated water) much more efficiently with a cannister stove, and regardless of the amount of water being heated, you'll be
done cooking your meal and will be eating it much sooner than the guys with the beer can. For many folks, the idea of a more efficient stove and a quicker one is worth the extra weight, which in many cases, is negligible in any case. If enjoying a over-sized dinner, and enjoying it five to ten minutes earlier every night means paying a weight penalty of a few miserable ounces, well to me it seems well worth it. (Oh, and several folks made reference to fuel canisters weighing 8 ounces. It should be remembered that the smaller cans weigh considerably less).
I would venture to say that the majority of AT enthusiasts fit into that catagory. We are in a fast paced society. A few miserable ounces:-?
Is the canister your goto choice when out and about?
The "Brasslite" the "Trangia" hold plenty of alcohol for larger meals. Both stoves simmer. These stoves go way back in history of backpacking. No mention of them:confused:
Believe in what "Mags" says:
Remember…it is just a stove at the end of the day. Gear is the least important part of backpacking. No matter stove you use, the mountain ranges are awesome, the sunsets are grand and those wildflower blooms will be gorgeous. Take what works and enjoy! :)
.
Creepwood
04-22-2011, 13:45
It all boils down to time and preferences like everyone has mentioned. Some people find comfort in sitting down and doing the whole process and some people find it a nuisance and want it done as quick as possible. The people who find it a comfort would likely sacrifice the ounces to have the cook method they prefer, I would guess a cannister stove since its easier to simmer.