View Full Version : Denatured Alcohol?
earlyriser26
03-31-2011, 19:03
I am not sure what to get. Is denatured alcohol what you buy at you local drug store (isopropyl alcohol) or is it something different. If so where do you get it?
Rocket Jones
03-31-2011, 19:07
It's not the rubbing alcohol. Go to a hardware store or WalMart. They have it, it's labeled "Denatured Alcohol".
Denatured alcohol is basically moonshine with methanol or methylalcohol or something added to it so its not edible. I'm pretty sure its used to remove paint or something, I know you can pick it up at hardware and paint stores.
Isopropyl comes in two different forms (like 75% and 95% or something) The higher of the two will burn, but not as clean and efficient as denatured alcohol, same deal with everclear.
It could be the same, but for all intents and purposes it is not. Denatured alcohol is ethanol (2 carbons) with a bit of poison so you don't try to drink it. Isopropyl alcohol has 3 carbons, has a bit more energy, but is harder to light, is sooty, and really isn't worth dealing with unless you get something close to 99%.
Ethanol can be found in three useful forms: HEET in the yellow bottle, denatured alcohol and drinking alcohol that's 190 proof (or better). You can find HEET at many places that sell automotive fluids, and maybe hardware stores. Denatured alcohol is usually just hardware stores and possibly stores with hardware departments...look in the paint section. High proof alcohol...good question, but you won't find it in California.
Boothill
03-31-2011, 19:27
the most popular brands around here is Klean-Strip, i like Klean-Strip Green, seems to burn cleaner and hotter, it's 90% ethyl alcohol (ethanol) and 10% methanol, the regular Kleans-Strip S-L-X is 50% ethyl alcohol and 50% methanol
boot
Actually, I believe HEET in the yellow bottle is actually methanol.
Boothill
03-31-2011, 19:47
Actually, I believe HEET in the yellow bottle is actually methanol.
^^^ this
and from everything i've read, methanol is quite a bit more toxic that ethanol, that's why i like klean-strip green that is 90% ethanol
boot
tigerpaw
03-31-2011, 20:01
Denatured alcohol is available at any home improvement center, hardware store, paint store. Most isopropol has too much water to burn well.
TheCheek
03-31-2011, 22:46
Has anyone done a caloric comparison to white gas for efficiency purposes by weight? For example, standard white gas packs xx energy potential per pound, and denatured alcohol has yy energy units per pound. Then actual field experiments based on burn efficiency on various stoves...
The end result being what is the most weight efficient fuel to carry.
Has anyone done a caloric comparison to white gas for efficiency purposes by weight?
Yes, to both parts of the question. You can also look up the constituents on the MSDS and determine the efficiency by referencing a chemistry handbook...assuming you know chemistry.
Boothill
04-01-2011, 11:50
Has anyone done a caloric comparison to white gas for efficiency purposes by weight? For example, standard white gas packs xx energy potential per pound, and denatured alcohol has yy energy units per pound. Then actual field experiments based on burn efficiency on various stoves...
The end result being what is the most weight efficient fuel to carry.
comparison chart (http://zenstoves.net/Fuels.htm)
boot
TallShark
04-01-2011, 13:40
I have had great results with the crown brand "next" denatured alcohol. It says it's 95% natural, biodegradable fuel. Burns clean for me, no soot, burns hot. You can find it at Lowes, The 32oz can has a graphic on it with a green leaf.
In my experience the best are EverClear and Lab grade ethanol. Both are expensive. The KleenStrip Green is almost as good and lots cheaper (but more expensive than other hardware store products). Yellow Heet is mediocre/fair but availability is high. I have not tried the Lowes product mentioned here.
In general you want as much ethanol as you can get and as little methanol, other adulterants, or water. 90% of what is out there in hardware and department stores as denatured alcohol or shellac thinner has lots of methanol.
TheCheek
04-02-2011, 00:12
comparison chart (http://zenstoves.net/Fuels.htm)
boot
Thanks for posting. What an awesome chart. One point of humor there was the molecular structure column. One of these things is not like the others....:D
:p
It could be the same, but for all intents and purposes it is not. Denatured alcohol is ethanol (2 carbons) with a bit of poison so you don't try to drink it. Isopropyl alcohol has 3 carbons, has a bit more energy, but is harder to light, is sooty, and really isn't worth dealing with unless you get something close to 99%.
Ethanol can be found in three useful forms: HEET in the yellow bottle, denatured alcohol and drinking alcohol that's 190 proof (or better). You can find HEET at many places that sell automotive fluids, and maybe hardware stores. Denatured alcohol is usually just hardware stores and possibly stores with hardware departments...look in the paint section. High proof alcohol...good question, but you won't find it in California.
Whoa! We have all kinds of alcohol in California. Just got myself a bottle of Everclear (151 proof) to take on the trail. I'll be making some "Fuzzy Leprechuans" ( 1 1/2 oz. 151 Rum or Everclear, and 8 oz. Gatorade) in the evenings. You can also use Everclear as fuel but drinking it is more fun. :D
:p
Whoa! We have all kinds of alcohol in California. Just got myself a bottle of Everclear (151 proof) to take on the trail. I'll be making some "Fuzzy Leprechuans" ( 1 1/2 oz. 151 Rum or Everclear, and 8 oz. Gatorade) in the evenings. You can also use Everclear as fuel but drinking it is more fun. :D
Don't count on using it as fuel. It's only 75% alcohol in alcohol. Other states have the more potent versions that can be used very effectively as fuel. Try it out though. It might burn, but 190 proof will burn much better and the higher proof stuff allows you to dilute it on your own.
TallShark
04-02-2011, 15:08
yeah I've never known the watered down version of everclear working near as well as the 190 proof, if at all.
Mr. Chemistry teacher here. Ethanol is the alcohol found in various concentrations in liquor (100 proof =50%, 150 proof = 75% etc...). To sell it as a solvent it is cut with methanol which is poison (also called wood alcohol) to differing concentrations so people will be less inclined to drink it. Methanol (CH4) has only one carbon, ethanol (C2H6) has two carbons,propanol (C3H8) has three carbons (hard to find at the hardware store), butanol (C4H10) has four (next to impossible to find unless you happen to be a chemistry teacher),etc...
The energy released comes from the carbon-carbon bonds, so the more C-C bonds, the more energy. The problem with the longer chain alcohols is that they evaporate very quickly and tend to be a bit on the explosive side. So, the alcohol you get as HEET or paint solvent or grain alcohol will be more efficient the higher the percentage of ethanol (more C-C bonds per ounce).
There will be a quiz on Tuesday, chapter test next week.....
Great info. I just made a super cat and have been playing with it. I didn't know there was different types of denatured alcohol. I have been using the lower methanol version. Time to make a trip to lowes.
--louis
Odd Man Out
04-28-2012, 13:01
Chemistry Prof Here. Before the exam, we should point out that waasj inadvertently gave the formulas for methane, ethane, propane and butane (all gasses). Take away an -H from the terminal carbon of each and replace with an -OH to get the formulas of the normal alcohols (for isopropanol and isobutanol, the -OH is on the middle carbon).
Here's a good review. http://zenstoves.net/Stoves.htm#Fuels
Many studies about the true weight of various stove/fuel systems have been done. Ethanol has about half the energy by weight of white gas and propane canisters. Methanol is a little less than Ethanol. But one must also consider the weight of the stove and fuel containers you carry. The amount of fuel you need to carry (before resupply), weather condition, and the amount of fuel needed per day also have an impact on the calculation. There are too many variables to give one consistent answer. The high energy density of white gas makes it the favored fuel for situations when you need to carry a lot of it (cooking for a large group, going a long distance between resupply, needing to melt snow for drinking water, e.g.). The popularity of alcohol stoves among AT thru hikers is due to the fact that none of these situations apply in most cases. Of course there are many factors outside of weight that will influence your decisions, such as cost, simplicity, reliability, versatility, cooking style, power, personal preference, etc... with each kind of stove having its own advantages and disadvantages (all well documented on the Zen page above).
Also, the toxicity of methanol mostly applies to drinking it. I wouldn't worry about its toxicity, assuming you are burning it in a well ventilated forest, not drinking it, and using small amounts.
Wow, pretty deep discussion.
Answer to question:
Heet gas line antifreeze in the yellow bottle works great, is readily available and comes in convenient size.
Denatured Alcohol sold in paint departments. Usually used as a shellac thinner. Most of the times I've seen it, it was also labeled as "Marine Stove Fuel". This gives you good peace of mind that you are buying the proper substance.
Isopropyl Alcohol (drug store "rubbing alcohol") will work, but as others have said, it is not a good substitute - hard to light, burns dirty, not very efficient.
Here's Mags' stove type comparison.
http://www.pmags.com/stove-comparison-real-world-use
Sweetspot
04-28-2012, 20:22
I used rubbing alcohol and had no problem.