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Captain_Slo
04-03-2011, 13:49
My group of middle school aged Scouts want to go backpacking over Memorial Day weekend and they'd like Springs. We're in Miami and they've capped their travel limit at 7 hours by car. Does anyone know of a spot on the Florida Trail that meets these requirements--within 7 hours of Miami and with springs to swim in.

They've worn out Johnathan Dickinson and are looking for more challenging landscape if possible.

Captain_Slo
04-03-2011, 13:50
...actually Florida Trail isn't a requirement

WingedMonkey
04-03-2011, 14:13
Ocala National Forest, 6 hours north has at least five major springs. Two of them, Juniper and Alexander, are right off on the Florida Trail and in developed campgrounds. I would suggest Juniper Springs. You can either camp in the campground or in the Wilderness Area. The Juniper Creek Run canoe day trip is an excellent adventure for scouts. They rent canoes and provide shuttles back.

How many in your group?

Llama Legs
04-03-2011, 14:14
Wekiwa Springs State Park ?

Captain_Slo
04-03-2011, 14:32
WingedMonkey: I've got 8 kids + 2 adults so 10 total if everyone goes... They kayak down here so I think canoeing might interest them... Is there an outfitter there that provides guides or is it strictly rental? Have you done business with them?

Captain_Slo
04-03-2011, 14:45
anyone been to Blue Spring or Little Big Econ?

johnnyjohnson2043
04-03-2011, 14:48
I second the Alexander and Juniper Springs area. I've camped at Juniper Springs a number of times and have always enjoyed it, though it can sometimes get busy in season.

WingedMonkey
04-03-2011, 15:16
WingedMonkey: I've got 8 kids + 2 adults so 10 total if everyone goes... They kayak down here so I think canoeing might interest them... Is there an outfitter there that provides guides or is it strictly rental? Have you done business with them?

You wouldn't need a guide, it's a swift water, sand bottom creek with no places to get lost more than a false hairpin turn. They rent canoes at the concession stand next to the springs. About seven miles to takeout. Probably will be very busy on a holiday weekend. The cold water springs are a very popular swimming hole for locals and so is the no fee bridge area where you take out on highway 19.

You could plan backpacking into or out of the area. About 5 miles north on the Florida Trail is very popular Hidden Pond Campsite. No facilities and in the Designated road-less wilderness area. A lot of the area is sand scrub like Johnathan Dikenson.

South of the springs the next trail campsite is Farles Lake Prairie. A nice road accessible oak shaded area with pitcher pumps.

Dispersed camping is also allowed on the Forest now that hunting season is over, but water supply needs to be carried or planned.

WingedMonkey
04-03-2011, 15:34
anyone been to Blue Spring or Little Big Econ?
Blue Springs State Park is on the small size. The spring run usually has a good amount of manatees in it, less so in summer, and HUGE Florida gar fish (four to five foot) you can see in the clear water. The swimming and tubing area is always packed.
There was a 4 mile in and out backpack trail (8 mile round trip) to a primitive camp site. Don't know if it's still open.
You can rent canoes for the spring run into the St. Johns River, but the river is very busy with large boats.
Good to visit, not so much for backpacking.

WingedMonkey
04-03-2011, 16:44
Wekiwa Springs State Park ?

Wekiwa is nice hiking with about 13 miles of trails The trails were closed a few years because of clear-cutting to control the southern pine beetle. There is only one primitive tent area, with sites that can accommodate up to ten people about 3.5 miles from the trail head. Reservations are required year round.

It also has canoe and kayak rental and guided trips and shuttles. There are two campsites that that can only be accessed by canoe or kayak. Again reservations are required and can not be made more that 60 days out.

Swimming or snorkeling is popular in the cool springs but not allowed in Wekiwa Springs Run, Rock Springs Run or the Wekiva River.

It's closeness to Orlando area will make it very crowded on a holiday weekend.

Great White
04-03-2011, 23:24
I think the FT around the springs in Ocala National Forest will work best for you.

The areas where I have experience in Ocala NF are Salt Springs, and Pats Island. Pats Island is about 10 miles south of Salt Springs and has an interesting historical trail, the Yearling Trail (http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5199098.pdf). Nearby is Silver Springs. About 4 miles south of that, is the Hidden Pond Campsite in the Juniper Prairie Wilderness (http://www.floridatrail.org/Hiking/Grab-and-Go/juniperprairie.html). About 5.3 miles south is Juniper Springs. Roughly 14 miles to the south is Alexander Springs. It is an excellent stretch of the FT.

I believe you can rent canoes at every spring. ONF Maps and Publications (http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/%21ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gjAwhwtDDw9_AI8zPyhQ oY6BdkOyoCAGixyPg%21/?ss=110816&navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&cid=stelprdb5192635&navid=360000000000000&pnavid=null&position=Feature.Html&ttype=detail&pname=Ocala%20National%20Forest-%20Maps%20&%20Publications) is a good source of information.

Wekiwa Springs SP WILL be crowded on that weekend. The Little Big Econ State forest could be crowded as well, plus I think it has limited hiking opportunities. I also think that state forest is overrated. The river is downstream from a dam that forces an unusual riparian zone, basically upland forest with a steep slope into the river. I don't like it.

Captain_Slo
04-15-2011, 23:25
UPDATE: So, the kids picked Blue Spring. I told them that the whiteblaze said it wasn't so great and they said "Well, you can't believe everything you hear on the internet, we're going to see for ourselves"

Anyone been up there this year???

WingedMonkey
04-15-2011, 23:54
UPDATE: So, the kids picked Blue Spring. I told them that the whiteblaze said it wasn't so great and they said "Well, you can't believe everything you hear on the internet, we're going to see for ourselves"

Anyone been up there this year???

Volusia County has a fire ban because of drought (including the state parks), not that you need a campfire in this heat. Plan accordingly.
Make reservations for camping if you can, either primitive or developed campground. Only 51 sites in developed area they will go fast. Even on regular weekends they close the parking lot to day use once the park is full. Bring snorkels and tubes if you got them, or rent there.
Nice canoe ride up to Hontoon Island State park, but like I said the St. Johns River has some big ass boats on it, even tugs and barges.
Have Fun

Dogwood
04-16-2011, 02:35
Not sure of the mileage or travel duration from Miami but if your troop gets a chance to visit Itchnetucknee Springs outside of Gainesville they will LOVE it! You can rent inner tubes and float down the crystal clear river, jump off cliffs, and camp at nearby campgrounds. The inner tube companies even can drop you off and pick you up and they collect their tubes at the pull out pts. In Apr and early May the river is nowhere as busy as in the summer. Constant yr round 72* water.

Captain_Slo
04-16-2011, 06:32
Not sure of the mileage or travel duration from Miami but if your troop gets a chance to visit Itchnetucknee Springs outside of Gainesville they will LOVE it! You can rent inner tubes and float down the crystal clear river, jump off cliffs, and camp at nearby campgrounds. The inner tube companies even can drop you off and pick you up and they collect their tubes at the pull out pts. In Apr and early May the river is nowhere as busy as in the summer. Constant yr round 72* water.


Yeah! That's where they wanted to go initially, but nixed it because there wasn't a trail long enough for their tastes

WingedMonkey
04-16-2011, 11:29
Yeah! That's where they wanted to go initially, but nixed it because there wasn't a trail long enough for their tastes

O'Leno State Park is about 12-14 miles from Ichetucknee Springs. It was great hiking trails and primitive camp sites. Also has canoing and some small "rapids" lol.
The trails to the backpack sites 6.5 miles in, go over land where the Santa Fe River flows underground and re-surfaces a few times as sinkholes. It was known as a natural bridge to the Indians and early settlers. Backpack site holds 10. Also has two youth camp areas. Lots of historic and and Civilian Conservation Corps history.

Captain_Slo
04-16-2011, 17:21
oooooh that sounds awesome. Maybe Blue Spring will be 'full' when I make reservations...

Dogwood
04-16-2011, 20:11
Do a float instead or hike in Oleno SP and do a float.

Off the Santa Fe River, in which I think the Itchnetucknee River flows, has several Very Good springs, in which you can swim. You can canoe on the IR too but why do that when you can float and wade it with the gators, fish, snowy egrets, and Little and Great Blue Herons.

I remember seeing signs for OLeno SP but never hiked it. Have to check further into that.

Thanks for the beta WM.

Captain_Slo
04-18-2011, 13:35
The trails to the backpack sites 6.5 miles in, go over land where the Santa Fe River flows underground and re-surfaces a few times as sinkholes. It was known as a natural bridge to the Indians and early settlers. Backpack site holds 10. Also has two youth camp areas. Lots of historic and and Civilian Conservation Corps history.

So I just talked with the folks over at O'leno. The ranger made very clear to me over the phone that there's No Water Ever out at the Sweetwater campsite. Except: Isn't it along a river? And there's some sort of lake out there? She said that a person must carry their own water in. I asked her about getting water from the lake and she said that 'no, I wouldn't drink it' Even treated? :confused:"No..."

She also told me that my kids wouldn't be able to make it out there "it's a 6 mile hike!" :mad: I told her they were plenty capable. thanks.

Has anyone been out there? Is there water?

Winged Monkey: Is it a nice, shady(ish) hike, or is it like a savanna out there?

Captain_Slo
04-18-2011, 13:49
Seriously, What is wrong with this state?

Blue Springs ranger claims that there is no primitive site and that there never was one? Every other primitive site I can track down has no water? What? There's springs and lakes all over the place and they can't put a campsite within 2 miles of one of those.... :mad::mad::mad:

Old Hiker
04-18-2011, 13:50
My Troop does a yearly Ichetucknee tube trip. We'e stayed at the youth camps with water, etc. You don't have to camp in the primitive campsites to hike in the park, probably. I remember a paved bike path/trail close to O'Leno where we've found several geo-caches. Not sure how long it is or where it goes, but it was pretty open and not shaded. http://www.floridastateparks.org/oleno/default.cfm

Also: Ichetucknee caps the park load, but I can't remember what number. Anyone NOT in line after a certain time is outta luck. We camp at O'Leno and show up at the park gate by 0700 and are still WAY down the line to get in. We've yet to not make it in to the park. Call the park to see what the number is.

http://www.floridastateparks.org/ichetuckneesprings/default.cfm

Good luck - happy tubing - happy hiking.

WingedMonkey
04-18-2011, 14:44
So I just talked with the folks over at O'leno. The ranger made very clear to me over the phone that there's No Water Ever out at the Sweetwater campsite. Except: Isn't it along a river? And there's some sort of lake out there? She said that a person must carry their own water in. I asked her about getting water from the lake and she said that 'no, I wouldn't drink it' Even treated? :confused:"No..."

She also told me that my kids wouldn't be able to make it out there "it's a 6 mile hike!" :mad: I told her they were plenty capable. thanks.

Has anyone been out there? Is there water?

Winged Monkey: Is it a nice, shady(ish) hike, or is it like a savanna out there?

I'm trying not to laugh.
Are you sure you were talking to a ranger and not a volunteer? Why do they think the primitive site is called "Sweetwater Lake"? The river flows three miles underground through limestone caves and pops up there as a small lake then continues underground until the the River Rise preserve. There is a horse trail and camp area downstream, of course they have running water and showers in their "primitive" site. Nothing I can Imagine that can't be filtered or treated. You might lose a Scout on the steep banks but not from drinking the tannin colored water. Yes they are told to tell hikers to carry their own water. Your Scouts are probably going to want to hike back to the main river area to swim and explore, so carry more water back.
Most of the trail is very well shaded, and only a little rough where it's sugar sand or it the hammocks area with roots. I've also biked the trail.
Here's a good trail topo:http://www.yellowbelliedsliders.org/O%27Leno%20Lakes.pdf

They might have a problem with your Scouts arriving in time to hike the trail on a Friday before it gets dark. The rule is three hours before sunset (not sundown) I've had that problem at other State Parks, even after they know I have been there and that I know the trails. Seems to be what kind of staff is on hand.

WingedMonkey
04-18-2011, 15:05
Old Hiker's plan is a good one if your kids want to do the Ichetucknee tube trip. It's more like a Disney Ride these days. A lot of fun but hundreds of people on the run.

If the Scouts would rater to do some backpacking on the Florida Trail and not do Ocala Forest, another option to check is the Boy Scout camp on the trail south of the hamlet of Paisley (CR 42) before the Florida Trail goes into Ocala Forest. Winn Dixie Scout Reservation (used to be called Camp La No Che) has a nice swimming lake and trail options going in both directions.

atpaul
04-18-2011, 15:49
Try Salt Springs, its more remote (off of hwy 40) and has everything. Marina within a 1/4 mile, Fires allowed. Florida trail cuts through very close. I was their just last weekend.

WingedMonkey
04-18-2011, 16:01
Try Salt Springs, its more remote (off of hwy 40) and has everything. Marina within a 1/4 mile, Fires allowed. Florida trail cuts through very close. I was their just last weekend.

Salt Springs will also be packed on a holiday weekend. Fun place but more of an RV set up in my mind. 3.5 mile blue blaze to Florida Trail. Nice camp spots by the trail junction.

Dogwood
04-18-2011, 17:14
Do you know how many times I've been told I HAD TO CARRY MY WATER IN ON A HIKE or THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO NO NO WATER or IT"S IMPOSSIBLE TO DO WHAT I WAS PLANNING and found the INFO WRONG? NOT necessarily saying this is the case here though. I ALWAYS try keep a humble and unprideful attitude with the knowing I DO NOT KNOW everything, but I read between the lines when speaking with anyone providing info about hiking. You may not have been talking to a ranger as WM said or even if you were people are inclined to only provide biased info about what they would do based on their own knowledge or abilities! It's not just Florida! I get it a lot! I hike a lot, in a lot of different places so I now know what to RESPECTFULLY AND PATIENTLY AND SPECIFICALLY ask and who to talk to according to my own experience, hiking knowledge, and agenda. If I think people are ignorant or I'm not getting my questions answered in an informed unbiased way I bypass the ignorant(no disrespect meant by that adjective, I am ignorant about a GREAT MANY things too!)front desk or front gate or front office or phone people, unless I have first ascertained their experience, knowledge, and sensibilities are in line with my own(they are not ignorant, which hopefully I'm not, and I''m listening carefully!, I usually do my homework though!), or I go directly to a HIKING BACKCOUNTRY RANGER/HIKING BACKCOUNTRY KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON that is intimately familiar with the area I'm entering and can knowledgeably provide me with the "not routine talk" they provide everyone else AFTER I have explained to them my experience, knowledge, and hiking ideas. The stories I could relate, especially about visits to NPs, SPs, and CPs! Sounds like WM intimately knows what he's talking about in reference to O'Leno!

I think you have been provided with several viable options for an enjoyable and safe hiking and/or tubing and/or canoeing trip for your scouts and you. I see no reason why the scouts and you can't make it 6 miles in a day in this hiking area!

As OldHiker has stated lines do form to enter Itchnetucknee SP(SOMETIMES!). They have a daily quota. BUT, be aware that the weekends are busier AND at this time of the year, when most Floridians think it's still too cold to enter the "cold" water(yr round 72* water temp.), you will probably not have those LONG summer, late spring, and early fall lines to get in, especially if you plan on being there during the weekdays! You might want to call ISP first to see what their attendance has been recently. I have been to ISP about 6 times at various times of the yr. I have been the only one in the park or one of maybe 2 or 3 cars in the entire park during weekends in winter and early spring! I have been fortunate to be one of the last few cars to enter the park during the heat of summer or near a holiday! CROWDED! I have had Floridians comment that they thought I was crazy walking around in swimming shorts and a light jacket or jumping into Blue Pool for a swim when the air temp was a "freezing" 60 - upper 70's * and the water was 72*. I lived for almost 15 yrs in Tampa, Punta Gorda, and Ft Meyers.

WingedMonkey
04-18-2011, 17:49
Good advice Dogwood, but .......


My group of middle school aged Scouts want to go backpacking over Memorial Day weekend.

The college crowd still loves Itchnetucknee on a holiday even though you can't float with beer (not even tobacco or food) like we did in the old days.

As for Florida State Parks in general (not national or state forests) they are really set up these days for the winter snowbird crowd bringing down the RV. Lots of group activities and nice little nature walks. And like Dogwood says you need to find someone that knows squat about the back-country. It's less of a problem in the few Florida State Parks that have extensive trails, but that man or woman at the front gate may have never even hiked.
Another problem is the fear of liability. That's why they can't wink and say "OK drink the water", or "Yes I think that's a good filter", or "OK, have a nice moon light hike". Something happens and out come the law suits.

Ladytrekker
04-18-2011, 18:30
I have hiked Oleno not much there short trails and not the best hiking. As far as the Ft goes my favorite is along the Suwannee anywhere between White Springs (Stephen Foster State Park) to Suwannee River State Park. Beautiful very challenging trail with lots of ravines, and creek crossings.

The Ocala National Forest Hopkins Prairie to Juniper is a very nice hike with camping half way at Hidden Pond. Then of course swimming and canoeing at Juniper.

Blue Springs is a beautiful area and lots of room to spread out. Deleon Springs is about 15 miles from there and has a spring swimming hole and a 4 mile hiking trail.

Good Luck hope you have a great time.

Captain_Slo
04-18-2011, 19:40
I think you have been provided with several viable options for an enjoyable and safe hiking and/or tubing and/or canoeing trip for your scouts and you. I see no reason why the scouts and you can't make it 6 miles in a day in this hiking area!



I just want to point out that I was personally offended that the ranger (or volunteer!) suggested that my scouts couldn't do it. These kids could hike 20 miles with a manatee strapped to their back if they had to....


Oh, and thanks for the info on O'leno WM, sounds like you know more about the site than the folks I talked to! I'll give them the benefit of the doubt though and say maybe it IS a problem with people being afraid to provide information lest they get sued--horrible this litigious society, isn't it?

Dogwood
04-18-2011, 20:12
I wouldn't get personally offended. They were probably just giving you the routine spiel or their personal opinions, which I think I already adequately addressed. Perhaps, someone was giving sound advice! The more you hike, and the more you ask questions, the more you are going to experience this. It's not going to be the last time. No biggy! Listen, learn, do some other research if you feel it's needed, prepare your troop, and go enjoy yourself! That's what I would do.

LOL! I'm thinking about a high country Zion NP hike I did in late Fall with snow on the ground and a later Zion NP hike IN the Virgin River. I spent 1 1/2 hrs with 5 NP Rangers trying to persuade me I couldn't/shouldn't be doing what I did. Everyone of them examined every piece of my gear, asked me an untold number of questions, made me sit through a movie, refused, at first, to give me my permit(s), and made me sign a waiver, including agreeing to notify them when/IF I finished safely. If I had needed S and R I would have had to pay for it myself! You're going to do what? At first, I was offended but later realized they were doing their jobs, protecting me from ignorance I might have had, and making sure I was informed and prepared to what turned out to be quite a challenge! In the end, I realize they provided some necessary ans sound advice! They did their jobs!

Captain_Slo
04-18-2011, 20:37
LOL! I'm thinking about a high country Zion NP hike I did in late Fall with snow on the ground and a later Zion NP hike IN the Virgin River. I spent 1 1/2 hrs with 5 NP Rangers trying to persuade me I couldn't/shouldn't be doing what I did.

There's risk, and then there's risk.

Florida can be a dangerous place with the heat and unpredictable weather sometimes, but as far as terrain goes it isn't so challenging.

I'm a little sensitive because my scouts are girls and they're always being underestimated.

Dogwood
04-18-2011, 20:57
Do you think it was because they are female? Damn chauvinist. Weak females are almost capable of accomplishing what males can. Only kidding! REALLY! REALLY! Please don't send out NOW after me. I've had so many YOUNG GIRLS, teenagers, women, and just about every other other outhike me by now I've long ago learned that women and a whole lot of others can do things I can't! Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, they should be able to hike 6 miles in that relatively flat sandy area! REALLY! REALLY!

BTW, those Zion NP Rangers were underestimating me and it had nothing to do with my male gender! They would have done the same with any female.

Captain_Slo
04-18-2011, 22:39
Do you think it was because they are female? Damn chauvinist. Weak females are almost capable of accomplishing what males can. Only kidding! REALLY! REALLY! Please don't send out NOW after me. I've had so many YOUNG GIRLS, teenagers, women, and just about every other other outhike me by now I've long ago learned that women and a whole lot of others can do things I can't! Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, they should be able to hike 6 miles in that relatively flat sandy area! REALLY! REALLY!

BTW, those Zion NP Rangers were underestimating me and it had nothing to do with my male gender! They would have done the same with any female.


:)

Well, THEY know that they're capable and they're confident. That's good enough.

(but you should hear the things that the boyscouts--even the Leaders--say about them when they do the local Boyscout sponsored hikes here...no bueno :mad:)

Sorry for the digression.

Captain_Slo
05-31-2011, 07:10
Hey, just wanted to update:

We went up to O'Leno this weekend and stayed out at Sweetwater 2 nights. The camp is 3.5 miles in (though the rangers will tell you it is 6 to 8) and there IS a large lake--full of alligators--out there. It's down a steep hill from the tenting site (though the rangers may tell you there is No water out there). The hike out is shady and the trails are well marked.

There's a nature center back at the day use area that the kids really enjoyed--snakes and turtles to hold and a giant sand box full of shark teeth to dig around in. The kids also enjoyed walked along the river near the day use area. The swimming area was closed because the water is so low up there, but we were able to stay cool in the shade and had plenty of water.

Mosquitoes weren't as bad as I expected (virtually no mosquitoes out at sweetwater) but there were TONS of ticks.

So, thanks all for the suggestion, O'Leno is a great place for kids!

WingedMonkey
05-31-2011, 13:21
COOL...one of the few places in Florida with shade on the trails LOL. I've always loved the history of it. First learned about the Bellamy Road there. Florida's first Territorial government road built in the early 1800's. Got me to researching the road and how it ran from the East Coast with access to the St. Johns River to join up with the road to Tallahassee. (The Kings Road). The Bellamy used the spot where the river goes underground to cross.
I've gone back and hiked or biked many of the sections that I could find across the state.
http://heritage.acld.lib.fl.us/1101-1150/1109.html

Captain_Slo
06-09-2011, 13:20
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-b1fc0TfNzlY/TfEAtVyZkEI/AAAAAAAAAC0/wPjW_DOyfZY/s1600/sweetwater.jpg

Just so everyone knows: There is indeed a Lake at Sweetwater primitive site in O'Leno. And it's very pretty.

Dogwood
06-09-2011, 23:41
LOL! Where's the water! There is no water! Wait, what's that in the picture? I'm so thirsty it must be an optical illusioion. They probably meant no lab certified parasite and pollutant free routinely tested gov't approved within 100 ft of established campsites out of a spigot water! LOL! I get it SO OFTEN!

Yeah, don't you know 3.5 miles equals 6 miles in that area and your scouts can't do it in a day!

Like I said don't get offended or think the folks giving info don't know what they are talking about, SOMETIMES! Listen. Learn. Plan acordingly! It works!

Thanks for follwing up. Glad to hear all in your hiking party had a GREAT trip!