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SunnyWalker
04-07-2011, 23:35
Please limit comments to retrieving water from stock tanks and/or green algae type ponds/bodies of water. And please assume that this is the only water available (for this discussion and for some of CDT):

I used a Sweetwater filter system this last summer for a few days on CDT. After only two days of retrieving water from stock tanks it was giving me green water. (I scrubbed the filter after each use). I could not bring myself to drink this water. Remember: the water is green cows are standing around and their saliva and all is dripping into the water, etc.

What is the answer here? Carry multiple filters and swap out? Do I need a new filter system (different, better)? Hard to believe, Sweetwater is pretty good. OK, please give me your experience and input. I do appreciate it because I am going to be returning to the same environment this Summer. :sun

grayfox
04-08-2011, 00:16
Here is a link to Minn. DNR info that might help. There are times that the park service posts warnings here so I think the problem is everywhere.

If the cows are drinking it and seem ok then I might drink it if there was no other choice-- but I would avoid it if I could, cows are not smarter than we are about water quality. If the tank seems to monitered by a rancher it is probably ok--probably. I don't think the toxins, red and blue-green types anyway, are filterable or removeable by any means available to a hiker.

I would clean out the filter with bleach until it runs clear. If you are really worried replace it.

SunnyWalker
04-08-2011, 00:17
An additional reason for this thread: I have read a lot of comments on WB RE water. There are those who use nothing, and then there are the people who use chemical tablets, and then the filter type. What I am asking is this-you are at a STOCK TANK and you HAVE TO GET WATER FROM THIS STOCK TANK AND THE WATER IS GREEN AND COWS ARE DIPPING THEIR MOUTHS IN IT AND IT IS ALL BUGGY AND SALIVA AND ETC., ETC. What are you going to do here? What is best and please respond to my question about my filter if you have experience. Thanks!

SunnyWalker
04-08-2011, 00:18
Thanks Grayfox. I had another in a bounce box and I did replace it. Thanks for the info. But what would you have done or what do you do in this sit?

grayfox
04-08-2011, 00:21
The link-sorry--http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/julaug10/algae.html

grayfox
04-08-2011, 00:35
From my experience with stock tanks--they are usually ok up here in the north. Cows don't have anything in their spit that I know of that could hurt you. Our tanks sometimes grew some green stuff that we would clean out with a brush but none of the animals seemed to suffer for it.

When I have hiked in very dry places, I have carried a small durable nalgene of water in my pack that was not to be use unless it was an emergency situation. I have also backtracked a day to tank up because an expected source was not found and I couldn't be sure that the next one would be either. If you think it will be a problem, be sure to carry some extra carrying capacity like a big platypus or camelback. And no washing until you are sure you have a good supply. And pack the containers with extra care.

Feral Bill
04-08-2011, 00:50
If you are really hurting, I expect the danger from dehydration is greater and more immediate that that from nasty water. Serious chemical polutants excepted.

mweinstone
04-08-2011, 08:28
lot of really bad info here. where to start.
it is impossible to use a filter right and get green water.
bleach washing a filter element ruins it.
water contaminated with gyardia , ecoli and cow spit is fine when treated. fine.
filters are not needed on the AT.
finding contaminated water that appears clear and clean is next to impossible on the AT
suffering dehydration can cause you to slip and fall,get lost and disoriented, cramp up and not be able to hike, and heat stroke and exaustion. given the choice to exit the mountains hydrated and safe but with a bad water issue, as opposed to being unable to exit due to no clean water, but also with no water contaminate issue, i choose to drink bad water, exit safely and suffer in town.

mweinstone
04-08-2011, 08:30
the instructions for msr filters state radioactive water can be saftly filtered but will reduce the life of the element. fear of water and inexsperience with filters is rampent.

garlic08
04-08-2011, 09:56
This happened to me on the CDT in NM. One morning at the beginning of a 25-mile walk to my next water source, a steel cattle tank, I met a rare sight--a hiker coming the other way. He assured me there was water in the tank. You seldom get that kind of water info on the CDT. So I didn't reserve any water like I normally do. That evening when I got to the tank, it was dry and surrounded by thirsty cattle. There was a liter or two of scummy green stuff in the lowest corner the cattle couldn't reach. The next water was 10 miles away so the situation wasn't all that dire.

So I loaded my oldest bottle with a liter of the stuff, filtered through my bandanna and treated with a double dose of Aqua Mira and started walking, thirsty. (I was carrying an old Sweetwater at that point and it had gotten uselessly clogged, even pre-filtered, the last time I used it, at a relatively clean spring that was too full of algae. I was hoping to find clear water to clean it with some day soon.) My plan was to drink the stuff only if I couldn't make it to water that night. I did take one sip after a half hour or so, and didn't gag or die.

It was promising to be a rough and memorable evening of hiking, but then a surprise--an unmapped reservation road! What followed is a whole other story of trail magic and cultural discovery. I was welcomed to the reservation, offered food, beer and weed. Water was more difficult--it took several more hours to find that. But finally successful I continued on. I also learned the tanks in the area are filled on a rotating basis from a single well. I was a little unlucky to find one dry.

Anyway, back to the point, and reiterating good advice above: don't worry about cattle saliva. I've never seen cattle defecate in an above-ground stock tank. Don't trust a mechanical filter too much for the long term. Try to carry enough reserve to get you to the next source. Be prepared to hike in the cool of the night, including backtracking.

Spirit Walker
04-08-2011, 11:11
We used a Pur (now Katadyn) Hiker on both our CDT hikes. When the water was really bad, we poured through a bandana, then filtered, then put in iodine. That was rare. Usually we just filtered. And yes, sometimes the water still tasted green, but we never got sick. My concern wasn't cow spit but dead critters. However quite often stock tanks have water coming out of a pipe that is located above the water level. Frequently we got water directly from the pipe and didn't even filter. The worst were the ponds where the cows waded in. But when you're really desperate, even that will do in a pinch. Like Garlic there were a couple of times where we got a quart of water and kept going, hoping for better water. We always found it, one way or another. (i.e. In NM we sometimes ran into cars whose drivers offered water.)

sbhikes
04-08-2011, 12:15
If the filter is actually functioning (the water is going through the filter elements), wouldn't the color simply indicate the presence of something smaller than the filter element?

I have drunk green water and orange water after filtering and had no problems. The color doesn't always indicate that the water is bad. I would think that if a filter plus chemical treatment can be trusted to kill the living things that can harm you, the inert things leftover that can't hurt you, while unpleasant to look at, aren't really a problem.

Anyway, I have done like Iceaxe says and carried water I'd really rather not drink in the hopes that better water will come along. Sometimes I have had to drink the gross stuff but most often I've managed to find better water before resorting to it. I have not hiked the CDT but I hike in So Cal.

sheepdog
04-08-2011, 13:51
If it was all that was available I would have boiled it and then chemical treated it. Lots of parasites in stock water.

Chance09
04-08-2011, 14:19
I'd filter then bleach if it came down to it. Probably not picking up my filter until NM this year tho.

mweinstone
04-08-2011, 14:42
if you want to demonstrate how a filter cannot make colored water, filter gatorade. clear as a bell. pure h2o comes out. and allways will. if you want to demonstrate how to make colored water come thru a filter, you cant. unless you damage the filter or use it wrong. period.

Spirit Walker
04-08-2011, 21:44
Chance, you may want your filter for Wyoming as well. The cows will definitely be out when you're there. You'll be sharing water with cows and sheep and horses the entire trail - but Wyoming and NM are the most problematic.

sbhikes
04-08-2011, 21:52
I don't know, Matty. I've filtered water in little puddles in the rocks and it was orange going in and orange coming out of the filter. I've also filtered green algae water in a stagnant pool. Green going in, a bit less green going out. Never got sick from either.

tjforrester
04-08-2011, 22:44
The best thing that ever happened to me hiking wise is my Sweetwater filter breaking during my first long trek. I've used bleach ever since, and that includes water coming out of stock tanks on the CDT. There were a couple of times when the water was so dirty it freaked me out, so I boiled before drinking.

tjforrester
04-08-2011, 22:51
finding contaminated water that appears clear and clean is next to impossible on the AT


I advise against drinking from the creeks that run through the valley bottoms on the AT. The water is crystal clear, but those creeks are full of pesticides and fertilizer run off from farming. Unless you are near death from dehydration, there's no good reason to drink from those sources.

SunnyWalker
04-09-2011, 01:40
Well, I have used my SW filter system for many years. This was a new filter element. I had it in right. I had a prefilter on it and coffee bags on the end of that. i did get green water coming out. Not as green as the stock tank.

If you wish to give input please do. Remember this is not AT. Keep the reality of the sit on hand (read my first two posts). No comments on need for water. We all know that. Thanks.

Mountain Mike
04-09-2011, 02:14
lot of really bad info here. where to start.
it is impossible to use a filter right and get green water.
bleach washing a filter element ruins it.
water contaminated with gyardia , ecoli and cow spit is fine when treated. fine.
filters are not needed on the AT.
finding contaminated water that appears clear and clean is next to impossible on the AT
suffering dehydration can cause you to slip and fall,get lost and disoriented, cramp up and not be able to hike, and heat stroke and exaustion. given the choice to exit the mountains hydrated and safe but with a bad water issue, as opposed to being unable to exit due to no clean water, but also with no water contaminate issue, i choose to drink bad water, exit safely and suffer in town.

Two of you statements are false:
"Filters are not needed on AT" Most water should be treated on AT. Matter of preferance on how you treat it.

"Finding contaminated water that clear and clean is next to impossible on the AT" Pittsfield,MA & Berlin,NH have had Giardia show up in their public water supplies. Both are close to the AT & in it's watershed.

I know of several hikers that got the beaver bug while on the AT

Yes I have been in places on PCT where I strained water frow a cow pond, filtered & boiled. Then hoped to hell I didn't have to drink. Probably best trail magic I ever had. Ride to a locals place with invite to tent on his lawn & swim in his pond. We did take a break there to swim & tank up on water but hike into the night since next water source was another 15 ormore mile away.

blitz1
04-09-2011, 05:10
I advise against drinking from the creeks that run through the valley bottoms on the AT. The water is crystal clear, but those creeks are full of pesticides and fertilizer run off from farming. Unless you are near death from dehydration, there's no good reason to drink from those sources.

+1 to that! But even out of the valleys you can't be sure. I've had times where I drank from a lovely clear flowing stream while hiking up a trail and in another 1/2 mile found a beaver dam! In NE there are often fairly high bogs with lots of moose poop, and a stream running down from the bog can look clear. I try to tell from my topos if the stream I'm planning to drink from comes from a boggy area and I try not to use those, unless it's way upstream.

tjforrester
04-09-2011, 08:24
Well, I have used my SW filter system for many years. This was a new filter element. I had it in right. I had a prefilter on it and coffee bags on the end of that. i did get green water coming out. Not as green as the stock tank.

If you wish to give input please do. Remember this is not AT. Keep the reality of the sit on hand (read my first two posts). No comments on need for water. We all know that. Thanks.

Chaplain, I took the time to respond to your post, and you admonish instead of thanking me. I've thru-hiked the CDT. You may not like my response, especially since it rolls its eyes at filters, but there are different ways of doing things on the trail and mine is not the same as yours. I posted my response again, bolded the reference to the CDT, just in case you missed it the first time.

The best thing that ever happened to me hiking wise is my Sweetwater filter breaking during my first long trek. I've used bleach ever since, and that includes water coming out of stock tanks on the CDT. There were a couple of times when the water was so dirty it freaked me out, so I boiled before drinking.
_________

This offers a method of drinking out of stock tanks that worked perfectly well for me. I didn't get sick and my purification system was extremely light, not to mention cheap and unbreakable.

My post about the AT water was in response to a post made by another hiker about AT water. Some hikers who filter think they have cart blanche to filter anywhere, and I pointed out the chemicals in those low lands. Yes, that post was geographically off your topic, but I've seen a number of hikers filter from run off that contains contaminants and thought it was worth mentioning that's not a great idea. The concept can also be applied to other trails, including the CDT, so it wasn't that far of topic.

No comments on the need for water, eh? Because we all know that? Who is we, Chaplain? If you are speaking about experienced hikers I agree, but I suspect there are a number of inexperienced hikers who cruise this site and might find that info valuable.

tjforrester
04-09-2011, 08:40
+1 to that! But even out of the valleys you can't be sure. I've had times where I drank from a lovely clear flowing stream while hiking up a trail and in another 1/2 mile found a beaver dam! In NE there are often fairly high bogs with lots of moose poop, and a stream running down from the bog can look clear. I try to tell from my topos if the stream I'm planning to drink from comes from a boggy area and I try not to use those, unless it's way upstream.

Agreed.

I prefer not to drink out of any streams unless I am in high mountains, and the water is glacier runoff close to its source. I will sometimes drink out of the creeks that contain beavers, but I purify first. Without a doubt, the lower a creek is in elevation, the more likely its contaminated in some way.

As an aside, please don't bop me Chaplain, I held a conversation with a hiker this year who believes any water that contains trout is pure. I'm not joking.

tjforrester
04-09-2011, 08:42
Agreed.

I prefer not to drink out of any streams unless I am in high mountains, and the water is glacier runoff close to its source. I will sometimes drink out of the creeks that contain beavers, but I purify first. Without a doubt, the lower a creek is in elevation, the more likely its contaminated in some way.

As an aside, please don't bop me Chaplain, I held a conversation with a hiker this year who believes any water that contains trout is pure. I'm not joking.

Is there an edit button for these posts? I hate spotting grammatical errors the instant I post, then not being able to edit.

SunnyWalker
04-09-2011, 13:31
Dear TF Forester: sorry I did not mean to insult you. Thanks for your input.

sheepdog
04-09-2011, 20:29
The best thing that ever happened to me hiking wise is my Sweetwater filter breaking during my first long trek. I've used bleach ever since, and that includes water coming out of stock tanks on the CDT. There were a couple of times when the water was so dirty it freaked me out, so I boiled before drinking.
bleach works but I hate the taste of "city water". I guess if you're used to it.....

SunnyWalker
04-09-2011, 20:46
tfforessster: did wager squirt out the side/top (can't rmember)? When it does that the filter is finished. If one keeps trying to pump you'll break the thing.

mweinstone
04-10-2011, 01:37
i have hiked 7000 miles without filtering or treating on the AT. i dont carry alot of water even though i have a 6 litre msr bag for camp, i walk with enough to get by and drink from each source during the day with the exseption of low ones in new york occasionaly. but i allways drink from a half dozen sourses a day at least. seriose question. is this dumb luck? skill at avoiding bad water? 35 years. think about it. how many of you know a hiker who got sick? on the AT.

mweinstone
04-10-2011, 01:39
granted i never got past vernon. but i own every filter and carry one allways on a thru and only use it to reach hard to collect water. by far, a more important use.

Mountain Mike
04-10-2011, 02:31
I know of three on my thru. One down south & two up north. Maybe I should give you money to buy me a lotto ticket.

mweinstone
04-10-2011, 07:18
or,...maby its all constitution. thats alot of it i bet. id like to see real time monitoring of even one single overused source and then i would eat the filter from the monitoring station and prove its purity. heres a little algerythm im working on to describe the chances mathematicaly of getting sick from bad water on the AT.

size of body of water+flow rate+contamination leavel+dispersion area+time duration of contamination+amount consumed+constitutional streangth of hikers ability to remaine healthy...must all come together just right to create illness in the hiker.

blitz1
04-10-2011, 08:10
matthewski, isn't also possible that you've got a parasite from all that unfiltered water that's curled up in your brain right now, eating your neurons, and that it's what's sparking your creative brilliance? or have you always been this way? :)
no really, i'm serious....

Snowleopard
04-10-2011, 10:20
Matty and SBhikes are both right. Some filters will pass anything bigger than the filter pore size. Filter purple gatorade and it will come out purple. Most chemicals will pass through unaffected. The taste will be unchanged. Some filters including some MSR incorporate activated charcoal or have a charcoal prefilter. The charcoal will adsorb many chemicals. The Brita filters used to improve the taste of water, I think, contain charcoal. I've never tried it, but wouldn't be at all surprised if it removed the color from gatorade.

I've never had to drink for such a stock tank and hope to avoid hiking where it is necessary. Horace Kephart describes an incident from the book, Johnson's 'Getting Gold':

" I once rode forty-five miles with nearly beaten horses to a native well, or rock hole, to find water, the next stage being nearly the fifty miles further.

The well was found, but
water in it was very bad for in it was the body of a dead kangaroo, which had apparently been there for weeks. The wretched horses, half frantic with thirst, did manage I filled our to drink a few mouthfuls, but we could not. I took our largest billycan, holding about a gallon, slung it over the fire and added, as the wood burnt down, charcoal, till the top was covered to a depth of two inches. With the coal there was, of course a little ash containing bi-car-bonate of potassium. The effect was marvellous. So soon as the horrible soup came to the boil, the impurities coagulated, and after keeping it at boiling temperature for about half an hour, it was removed from the fire, the cinders skimmed out, and the water allowed to settle, which it did very quickly. It was then decanted off into an ordinary prospector's pan, and some used to make tea (the flavor of which can be better imagined than described) the remainder was allowed to stand all night, a few pieces of charcoal being added. In the morning it was bright, clear, and absolutely sweet."
Horace Kephart, 'Camping and Woodcraft'
http://www.scribd.com/doc/27285794/Camping-and-Woodcraft-Volumes-1-2-by-Horace-Kephart

What would worry me more than agricultural chemicals is streams that used to have a lot of industry upstream. From PA through NH there are a lot of rivers in the valleys like this. I grew up along the Naugatuck River in CT before the EPA and, believe me, no one was tempted to drink from it. I wouldn't drink from the Housatonic River or Hudson River which the AT does cross because of the possibility of really nasty chemicals remaining from 50 to 150 years before. An activated charcoal filter would remove some of this, but I wouldn't trust it.

tjforrester
04-10-2011, 18:11
Dear TF Forester: sorry I did not mean to insult you. Thanks for your input.

No worries, Chaplain. Thank you for your kind words.

tjforrester
04-10-2011, 18:13
bleach works but I hate the taste of "city water". I guess if you're used to it.....

I seldom purify water. When I do, I don't use enough bleach to taste it.

tjforrester
04-10-2011, 18:20
Matty and SBhikes are both right. Some filters will pass anything bigger than the filter pore size. Filter purple gatorade and it will come out purple. Most chemicals will pass through unaffected. The taste will be unchanged. Some filters including some MSR incorporate activated charcoal or have a charcoal prefilter. The charcoal will adsorb many chemicals. The Brita filters used to improve the taste of water, I think, contain charcoal. I've never tried it, but wouldn't be at all surprised if it removed the color from gatorade.

I've never had to drink for such a stock tank and hope to avoid hiking where it is necessary. Horace Kephart describes an incident from the book, Johnson's 'Getting Gold':
Horace Kephart, 'Camping and Woodcraft'
http://www.scribd.com/doc/27285794/Camping-and-Woodcraft-Volumes-1-2-by-Horace-Kephart

What would worry me more than agricultural chemicals is streams that used to have a lot of industry upstream. From PA through NH there are a lot of rivers in the valleys like this. I grew up along the Naugatuck River in CT before the EPA and, believe me, no one was tempted to drink from it. I wouldn't drink from the Housatonic River or Hudson River which the AT does cross because of the possibility of really nasty chemicals remaining from 50 to 150 years before. An activated charcoal filter would remove some of this, but I wouldn't trust it.

I wouldn't drink from any river on the east coast, wouldn't even swim in some of them.

tjforrester
04-10-2011, 19:27
i have hiked 7000 miles without filtering or treating on the AT. i dont carry alot of water even though i have a 6 litre msr bag for camp, i walk with enough to get by and drink from each source during the day with the exseption of low ones in new york occasionaly. but i allways drink from a half dozen sourses a day at least. seriose question. is this dumb luck? skill at avoiding bad water? 35 years. think about it. how many of you know a hiker who got sick? on the AT.

I know a hiker who came down with Giardia while hiking the AT, a medically diagnosed case, but I think this is fairly rare.

On the AT I'm more concerned with sharing finger food than I am getting the disease from the water. There are so many springs along that trail, a hiker can walk for days and never drink from a questionable source.

I become more wary when there are lots of people and lots of dogs on the trail, given people and dogs are carriers of this parasite. I've walked up on a hiker who was washing his nasty rear end while standing in a spring, and I've seen plenty of dogs cooling off in the water. If I can't get water directly out of the mountain, I sometimes wait for fresh water to replace the old.

tjforrester
04-10-2011, 19:30
tfforessster: did wager squirt out the side/top (can't rmember)? When it does that the filter is finished. If one keeps trying to pump you'll break the thing.

It was seventeen years ago and I can't remember exactly what broke on the filter. (I think it was the handle.)

Dogwood
04-10-2011, 21:26
The worst water(taste, floaties, dissolved solids, soda ash, minerals, cow urine, livestock feces, etc) I have ever experienced on hikes that I HAD(one place I did not) to drink from was on the CDT in NM and Montana(thanks to livestock, MOSTLY cattle!, most people don't know how destructive livestock are!), the Hayduke Trail in southern Utah, and the PCT on Hat Creek Rim. Drank from cow ponds and foul water tanks on the Hayduke, CDT, and PCT. The cow pond I drank from during the heat of summer on the northern section of Hat Creek Rim on the PCT was probably the worst though. I drank from that slime covered cow shart and urine floating flies abuzzing cow pond on the PCT because I failed to have an adequate up-to-date water report informing me that a trail angel had set up a water drop only 2 miles ahead! PCTers GET AN UP TO DATE WATER REPORT, ESPECIALLY FOR CALIFORNIA!!!

Just as bad tasting is minerally soda ash laden water of the southern Utah canyon country desert. You drink it and it makes you thirstier.

When confronting such water sources I strain with my bandanna and treat with a heavy dose of Aqua Mira just as Garlic does. If I have it(I usually do), I'll add some lemon-lime MSM Emergen-C to mask the taste and smell.

The AT has GREAT water compared to some of the other trails I've thru-hiked.

SunnyWalker
04-14-2011, 22:03
Well, all your answers have been good. I appreciate them. I still believe my filter was in right and all was well with the filter system. I have been encouraged here. The idea to think it through theoretically would be well when confronted with this situation. For example, Filter the water and if it is green theoretically it is ok except for the unappetizing color. Right? I guess I was not thristy enough! I think I thought it was not working. But looking back on it, if the filter was now clogged etc., it would have stopped putting out water.

SunnyWalker
04-14-2011, 22:05
Oh, I forgot to mention. On the CDT, for most of it, I will carry a filter. Not on all trails though. The giardia-I think a lot of "giardia cases" are cases of bad personal hygiene??!? That and poor practice in eating, cooking with others (guess it could be on a solo as well).

SunnyWalker
04-16-2011, 02:51
Ob boy, here I go, have to eat my words!!! After reading all our posts and other posts on water treatment via trailjournals and other forums you have talked me into it. I am retiring the Sweetwater Filter System for AM. Well, AM and a handkerchief!!! I'll keep the SW Filter system around but I am laying my fears aside for: AM and easier and lighter pack. (lighter is a side benefit!) Thanks again for each and every comment.

SunnyWalker
04-16-2011, 02:52
OK, just in case....AM=Aqua Mira. (Chemical treatment of water).

Dogwood
04-16-2011, 03:30
Chappy, going back out to the CDT in 2011?

SunnyWalker
04-16-2011, 10:39
Dodwood: I am trying to plan something. However between my wife's planning on us flying to a family reunion and major changes at work it is going to be just a two weeker hike. Guess what? I am going back to NM and CDT there.

Dogwood
04-17-2011, 00:00
You might encounter me!

rsmout
04-17-2011, 22:41
Hey Chaplain, here's some technical answers, or possible explanations, for what you saw, from an engineer's point of view:

1. Chlorophyll is a molecule, which is smaller than the smallest pore on most filters. Reverse osmosis filters would be the obvious exception. Chlorophyll is not green, but it reflects back the green part of the visible spectrum. So, the chlorophyll went through your filter and you saw green output.

2. Your filter is a pump. Pump seals are weaker than pump bodies and internals. If the filter element was loaded up with enough particulate matter, and you were pumping hard enough to get output, you could have been blowing unfiltered liquid past the seals. So, you saw green output.

What would have I done in your case and stock tanks were the only water source for miles? Some suggestions:

1. The U.S. military had this tablet called chlorfloc. You mixed it with raw water and waited 10-15 minutes. The "floculant" would bind the solids together such that they could be filtered through a cloth or sterile dressing. The chlorine part did what it did. Not sure if your output would have stayed green, but the water would be safe to drink. Check out military surplus websites for chlorfloc.

2. Some stock tanks have a line that keeps the tank full (or the rancher fills them periodically using a water "buffalo", i.e. water trailer). If the water was bubbling up from the bottom of the tank, I would invert a water bottle over the bubbles, force the inverted bottle down to that tank inlet, and then slowly tip the bottle upright with the mouth just next to the inlet. This would give you the best water in the tank. I might still filter that water, and/or treat it.

3. If there is no water line leading up to the tank, I would use the inverted bottle technique and tip the bottle somewhere near the lower third of the tank, but not close to the bottom. Decomposed solids are on the bottom of the tank; other stuff will tend to float. The water closer to the bottom will be better than the water closer to the top.

Dogwood
04-18-2011, 01:51
OK, now I"m learning something. I'm a miseducated.

Thanks Rsmout.

leaftye
04-18-2011, 02:46
I hadn't realized there was a flocculation agent that could be used for backpacking. Thanks rsmout

garlic08
04-18-2011, 09:19
Hey Chaplain, here's some technical answers, or possible explanations, for what you saw, from an engineer's point of view:

1. Chlorophyll is a molecule, which is smaller than the smallest pore on most filters. Reverse osmosis filters would be the obvious exception. Chlorophyll is not green, but it reflects back the green part of the visible spectrum. So, the chlorophyll went through your filter and you saw green output....

I thought about that too, and agree it's a possible explanation. I remember just enough chemistry to be dangerous and all I say could be totally wrong.

I tried to do a little internet research on the size of a chlorophyll molecule and on my agonizing slow computer and crappy dial-up connection, didn't get too far. My guess is that a chlorophyll molecule, pretty complex as I remember, is larger than the pores on a typical sub-micron filter. H2O, O2, N2 are smaller than one micron and will pass.

Plus, do you know for sure if what you see in green water is molecular chlorophyll? Could it be a larger organism containing chlorphyll?

Same question goes for the contents of Gatorade--from what I could read, it's possible that some sugars and salts, for instance, are smaller than one micron and may pass (I've never heard of anyone successfully filtering seawater with a backpacking filter). Elemental poisons like mercury and uranium may pass, too.

I don't remember ever getting green output from a filter back when I used one, so my bet is on a mechanical or user failure. (I had plenty of both of those!)

leaftye
04-18-2011, 12:33
I thought about that too, and agree it's a possible explanation. I remember just enough chemistry to be dangerous and all I say could be totally wrong.

I tried to do a little internet research on the size of a chlorophyll molecule and on my agonizing slow computer and crappy dial-up connection, didn't get too far. My guess is that a chlorophyll molecule, pretty complex as I remember, is larger than the pores on a typical sub-micron filter. H2O, O2, N2 are smaller than one micron and will pass.

Plus, do you know for sure if what you see in green water is molecular chlorophyll? Could it be a larger organism containing chlorphyll?

Same question goes for the contents of Gatorade--from what I could read, it's possible that some sugars and salts, for instance, are smaller than one micron and may pass (I've never heard of anyone successfully filtering seawater with a backpacking filter). Elemental poisons like mercury and uranium may pass, too.

I don't remember ever getting green output from a filter back when I used one, so my bet is on a mechanical or user failure. (I had plenty of both of those!)

Remember that chlorophyll is just a tiny molecule that resides in organelles in a much larger cell. Any single cell organism that contains chlorophyll is going to be many MANY times bigger. Just think of it as a chemical, like benzene, or tannins, or sugar because that's what it is. Filters that we use are not made to stop chemicals, they are made to stop organisms. I certainly wouldn't worry about consuming chlorophyll, at least not any more than I worry about it when I eat a salad.

If you really want to know the size of chlorophyll, I should be able to find it out for you with a modeling program I have, that is, if I can't find it in a reference book. Let me know.

Poppa Smurf
04-18-2011, 13:30
The question of knowing about potable water availability on the CDT may underlie the 'Green Stock Tank' thread? PCT hikers have effective internet sources to identify probable water sites. Is there such a resource for the CDT? Would it be possible to easily establish a source whereby we could identify the location and date of a respective water source other than the spontaneous exchange between NOBO and SOBOers or reading journal entries?

Snowleopard
04-18-2011, 13:32
rsmout, thanks for the informative post.
A small bacterium will be 1000 to 10,000 times larger than a relatively large molecule. Giardia will be 5 to 10 times larger than a small bacterium, i.e., perhaps 10000 to 50000 times larger than a molecule.
Most molecules are very very small, generally measured in angstroms diameter.
As an order of magnitude, a molecule might be 1 nanometer in diameter
1 nanometer =10^(-9) meter.
A small cell such as a bacterium will be several microns in diameter. Giardia are about 10 to 20 microns.
1 micron = micrometer = 10^(-6) meter = 1000 nanometers.

The interaction of a molecule with the material of a filter can be complex. Some organic molecules are large -- a DNA molecule can have a length of 1 meter, but it is coiled up in a complex way so it occupies a small volume.

garlic08
04-18-2011, 20:36
...If you really want to know the size of chlorophyll, I should be able to find it out for you with a modeling program I have, that is, if I can't find it in a reference book. Let me know.

What you say makes total sense and thanks for the refresher.


The question of knowing about potable water availability on the CDT may underlie the 'Green Stock Tank' thread? PCT hikers have effective internet sources to identify probable water sites. Is there such a resource for the CDT? Would it be possible to easily establish a source whereby we could identify the location and date of a respective water source other than the spontaneous exchange between NOBO and SOBOers or reading journal entries?

As I recall, Jim Wolf's books have some pretty good water info. So do Jonothan Ley's map notes, which even have some seasonal references. Those two sources worked well enough me, as long as I happened to be following one of their routes.

When/if there get to be more CDT hikers, I imagine a PCT-like network will spring up. As for now, there's probably just not enough traffic to justify it. And that's one of great attractions of the CDT.

Dogwood
04-18-2011, 21:18
.... As I recall, Jim Wolf's books have some pretty good water info.

YES! And, what I found, even if not always on a Wolf Route, some other USEFUL detailed info. His books, in some key areas, with his keen trail descriptions, kept me from getting lost/getting un-lost! I didn't have GPS just maps and compass and a willingness to sometimes wander!

So do Jonothan Ley's map notes, which even have some seasonal references.

YES! As some other CDTers have also noted Ley's added map notes are extremely helpful and not only with regard to water sources!

Those two sources worked well enough me...

Pretty much me too.

When/if there get to be more CDT hikers, I imagine a PCT-like network will spring up. As for now, there's probably just not enough traffic to justify it. And that's one of great attractions of the CDT.

YES! I share the same sentiments.

Dogwood
04-18-2011, 21:20
Plus, do you know for sure if what you see in green water is molecular chlorophyll?

My exact thought too.

Spirit Walker
04-18-2011, 21:49
One of the issues with water sources is that since so many are dependent on having cows actually on the range, they can change from week to week. A well that held water one week might be turned off a month later. A broken well may be repaired or a solar well may be moved. Water that was available to a hiker going one direction may not be for a hiker heading the opposite direction who passes through a few months later. Or vice versa. Since rainy season in the southwest is usually in late summer, a lot of NOBO hikers will report dry water sources that are fine for SOBOS. In the northern Rockies the wet month is usually June. So again, SOBOS will find water up north that isn't always available for NOBOS.

Thus the sources like the Ley maps and the Wolf guides only tell you where you might find water - there is no guarantee. Every year is different. Some years the hikers on the trail make a point to inform the other hikers - usually via cdt-l - which sources were available when they passed by. Other years the hikers don't bother to help the other hikers out. I'm not sure why. We used to post updates to water information in NM and WY on our website, but had too few hikers who let us know the current information to make it worth keeping up.

SunnyWalker
04-22-2011, 01:03
Man, this is real educational. Thanks one and all.

SunnyWalker
11-29-2011, 11:45
Return to this old thread: I found after writing this all that the CTA has supplied GPS coords for water sources along with their maps. -Chaplain

Sailing_Faith
11-29-2011, 13:06
Is there an edit button for these posts? I hate spotting grammatical errors the instant I post, then not being able to edit.

Making a donation to the site (it does not have to be the Rockefeller fortune) makes this available. I donated in thanks for the help I received, but it is a really nice benefit. :)


Hey Chaplain, here's some technical answers, or possible explanations, for what you saw, from an engineer's point of view:

1. Chlorophyll is a molecule, which is smaller than the smallest pore on most filters. Reverse osmosis filters would be the obvious exception. Chlorophyll is not green, but it reflects back the green part of the visible spectrum. So, the chlorophyll went through your filter and you saw green output.

Yes, in relative terms .5 microns can be huge...



1. The U.S. military had this tablet called chlorfloc. You mixed it with raw water and waited 10-15 minutes. The "floculant" would bind the solids together such that they could be filtered through a cloth or sterile dressing. The chlorine part did what it did. Not sure if your output would have stayed green, but the water would be safe to drink. Check out military surplus websites for chlorfloc.

Swimming pool supply companies also offer a variety of floculants... one could probably spend some time looking at the MSDS (material Safety Data Sheets) to determine if any were suitable to be carried for this purpose.




If you are really hurting, I expect the danger from dehydration is greater and more immediate that that from nasty water. Serious chemical polutants excepted.

My experience is with marine 'reverse osmosis' water purification systems. It is amazing what one can drink once the harmful 'wee beasties' have been removed.... not always palatable though.

The 'activated charcoal' is a good way to improve the taste of the water..

I know it is heavy, but I like the Katadyn Vario (helps that I got a killer deal on one) (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?70576-Katadyn-Vario&p=1218319&highlight=#post1218319)... it has the pre-filter, a ceramic filter, and the regular fiber filter that you can pack with charcoal... sounds like a good candidate for a CDT hiker sharing water with cattle.

BrianLe
11-29-2011, 13:54
"Making a donation to the site (it does not have to be the Rockefeller fortune) makes this available. I donated in thanks for the help I received, but it is a really nice benefit."

I mailed in a donation when I started using this site, but never received edit privileges as a result --- so I have to say that I'm disinclined to donate in future. Most likely a simple error somewhere (perhaps on my part I don't know), but still. I do like the site; not the east coast, AT-focus certainly, but just the overall layout and approach.

In terms of the original topic here (!), I bought a filter this year when I was off trail in Denver for a few days, thinking that in New Mexico in particular the water sources might get sketchy. So in particular, I carried the filter AND Aqua Mira from there to the Mexican border. In retrospect, I didn't need to do that. I used the filter maybe twice total, and neither was a really big deal. I think it would be perfectly adequate to pre-filter with a bandana or the like in the actually rare situations where there are floaties to remove, and double-dose with Aqua Mira when it seems like the source might be worse than average (cows standing around it, that sort of thing). Almost always when the water source was questionable, I could get floatie-free water by filling from under the surface of whatever I was getting water from, and even in New Mexico quite a lot of the time I could get the water directly from a windmill pipe (i.e., directly from underground).

Chance09
12-01-2011, 16:17
I don't think that filters are meant to get the color out of water, just the bad stuff. Being green isn't bad. Try putting a drop or two of food coloring in your water at home and filtering it and see what happens.

Alligator
12-01-2011, 16:39
"Making a donation to the site (it does not have to be the Rockefeller fortune) makes this available. I donated in thanks for the help I received, but it is a really nice benefit."

I mailed in a donation when I started using this site, but never received edit privileges as a result --- so I have to say that I'm disinclined to donate in future. Most likely a simple error somewhere (perhaps on my part I don't know), but still. I do like the site; not the east coast, AT-focus certainly, but just the overall layout and approach.

...Any member that makes a donation (mail or online) and does not have their account changed to donating is welcome to PM or email ATTroll or me to get it corrected. Sorry for the mishap.

BrianLe
12-01-2011, 17:48
Much appreciated, Alligator, for fixing this for me! Great site and great people.

Lyle
12-01-2011, 20:06
Many years ago, pre hiker filters, I hiked across Utah, Colorado, and Kansas. On more than one occasion a stock tank like you describe was the only available water. My method was to place a wool sock over the mouth of an empty Nalgene, cover the mouth with my hand, submerse the Nalgene toward the center of the water to avoid sucking in the bottom detritus and the floating cattle hair and slobber, remove my hand to allow it to fill. I would then pour the water from the first bottle into a second, again filtering with the sock. This usually resulted in fairly clear water. Final step was to double dose with Iodine, and double the waiting time. Seemed to work. The only time I got sick, was because of high alkaline water in the Apishapa Canyon of southeastern Colorado.

Kookork
12-01-2011, 20:42
Agreed.

I prefer not to drink out of any streams unless I am in high mountains, and the water is glacier runoff close to its source. I will sometimes drink out of the creeks that contain beavers, but I purify first. Without a doubt, the lower a creek is in elevation, the more likely its contaminated in some way.

As an aside, please don't bop me Chaplain, I held a conversation with a hiker this year who believes any water that contains trout is pure. I'm not joking.

It is part of survival lessons in armies that any water that contains trout is drinkable for survival matters. does it mean that trout can not live in giardia contamiated water? no.

One can not die or get sick immediately( lets say in a week) by drinking from any trout containing water, why?

Trout is way more sensitive to contamination than us.

I am behind my claim by two source, one my whole life experience around trout and fishing and second my medical knowledge.

JAK
12-01-2011, 22:49
I don't have any experience getting water near livestock, so I am curious. Is it not possible that the cows could have ecoli in their saliva, and that could contaminate the water? I suppose it is all a matter of degree. It might depend on how densely grouped the livestock are, and how often the water is replenished. I would boil, until I learned more.

Rasty
12-02-2011, 00:55
I think ecoli is in the cows intestines.

beakerman
12-02-2011, 11:01
My hiker pro instrucitons tell me to clean my element with bleach solution and store it that way. The reason for that is to prevent any bacterial growth on the clean side of ht efilter element so I really suggest you read the instructions that come with your filter as to how to clean it.

As for the OP: First of all I think you might be seeing one of two things: first it could just be the algea breaking down and you are getting chlorophyll...unless you have a carbon filter it will come through and is completely harmless or you could be getting the algea actually making it through the filter...unlikely but it could happen if you have the wrong filter or its broken or whatever.

Given these two possibilities with the chlorophyll being the most likely explanation and the down side of dehydtration I would just go for it.

beakerman
12-02-2011, 16:21
All mammals have e. coli in their intestinal tract...even you. Testing water for e. coli is a very common way to see if there has been any sewage contamination of drinking water. It only makes you sick when you consume a different strain of it from what you normaly have growing in you.

SunnyWalker
12-06-2011, 01:33
That "Trout Test" seems kind of fishy . . . . . .

SunnyWalker
12-31-2012, 02:28
OK, I am re-visiting this thread to say I am putting aside the Walter Filtration system (Sweetwater) and have bought Aqua Mira and will use it. I plan to start out late April on CDT this 2013.

tlane4
01-08-2013, 12:37
OK, I am re-visiting this thread to say I am putting aside the Walter Filtration system (Sweetwater) and have bought Aqua Mira and will use it. I plan to start out late April on CDT this 2013.

You're better off to go with bleach rather than aquamira. Why so many people swear by aquamira is beyond me, it's expensive, it doesnt kill giardia (it states this on the aqua mire container), and it comes in a defective container. At least half of the aquamira that ive bought in the past has developed leaks in the corners of the "part a" bottle. Complete waste of money and space.

SunnyWalker
01-13-2013, 10:10
Oh, Oh, Well i am in a world of hurt then! Oh, I'll use bandana filter system too!

Old Hiker
01-13-2013, 10:37
I have a Sweetwater that I will use until something lighter in a filter comes along. Too many courses in microbio to trust chemicals alone or with a bandana for the big chunks. My paranoia - you plan for your fears.

I also started with these: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=siltstopper

Increased my filter life extraordinarily - my first filter clogged in "clear" water. After that, with the SiltStopper, no problems.

The filter at the end is the one I use.

SunnyWalker
01-13-2013, 22:29
I did not say as I wanted to double check. I read it several times in reviews that AquaMira kills giardia.

SunnyWalker
04-09-2013, 10:26
OK. Now I AM IN A WORLD OF HURT. I not only have a pot to boil water in, AND my MSR Sweetwater filter system, and Aqua Mira I now also have a . . . . Steripen! This is going to be fun! Seriously, thanks for all the feedback here on this thread. Its been very interesting to me to read these posts. I have gone back over them and re-read them not a few times. I am preparing to leave for CDT this April 27, 2013. I wanted to use AM and hope to do that. I will have Steripen in bounce box and keep MSR Sweetwater in reserve at home waiting to be mailed. At any rate, I ought to be set up. Thanks again to all of you. I really appreciate it.

bearcreek
04-09-2013, 14:44
The water probably won't hurt you, but the biggest problem with greenish water is that it will plug up your filter. If it is a paper element type filter you may not be able to fix it. Ceramic filters work better since they can be scrubbed clean. A prefilter (like a bandanna) might help.

If it still freaks you out after filtering, add a couple drops of AquaMira and let it sit for a while.

Hairbear
04-09-2013, 18:19
This happened to me on the CDT in NM. One morning at the beginning of a 25-mile walk to my next water source, a steel cattle tank, I met a rare sight--a hiker coming the other way. He assured me there was water in the tank. You seldom get that kind of water info on the CDT. So I didn't reserve any water like I normally do. That evening when I got to the tank, it was dry and surrounded by thirsty cattle. There was a liter or two of scummy green stuff in the lowest corner the cattle couldn't reach. The next water was 10 miles away so the situation wasn't all that dire.

So I loaded my oldest bottle with a liter of the stuff, filtered through my bandanna and treated with a double dose of Aqua Mira and started walking, thirsty. (I was carrying an old Sweetwater at that point and it had gotten uselessly clogged, even pre-filtered, the last time I used it, at a relatively clean spring that was too full of algae. I was hoping to find clear water to clean it with some day soon.) My plan was to drink the stuff only if I couldn't make it to water that night. I did take one sip after a half hour or so, and didn't gag or die.

It was promising to be a rough and memorable evening of hiking, but then a surprise--an unmapped reservation road! What followed is a whole other story of trail magic and cultural discovery. I was welcomed to the reservation, offered food, beer and weed. Water was more difficult--it took several more hours to find that. But finally successful I continued on. I also learned the tanks in the area are filled on a rotating basis from a single well. I was a little unlucky to find one dry.

Anyway, back to the point, and reiterating good advice above: don't worry about cattle saliva. I've never seen cattle defecate in an above-ground stock tank. Don't trust a mechanical filter too much for the long term. Try to carry enough reserve to get you to the next source. Be prepared to hike in the cool of the night, including backtracking.
I used to work on a dairy farm. A cow can crap over your head ,and on the ceiling if given the right chance.

Bronk
04-10-2013, 01:43
I don't know, Matty. I've filtered water in little puddles in the rocks and it was orange going in and orange coming out of the filter. I've also filtered green algae water in a stagnant pool. Green going in, a bit less green going out. Never got sick from either.

In Florida I was camping at a place that had a shallow pitcher pump well...I filtered the water just to be safe. I left the bottles sitting in the sun and after about 20 minutes the water had turned orange. The only thing I can think of is that the sunlight caused rust from tiny particles of iron from the well pipe. I have no doubts that you could end up with green water after filtering.

Swordpen
04-11-2013, 01:44
Do not drink orange water in Arizona, its probably "tailings" cyanide form previous mining operations.

I'd drink straight from a stock tank, than that stuff!

Spirit Walker
04-11-2013, 12:02
Do not drink orange water in Arizona, its probably "tailings" cyanide form previous mining operations.

I'd drink straight from a stock tank, than that stuff!

In Wyoming, on our first thruhike, there were a couple of dead cows in the water at Bull Springs, so we kept going. (The spring has been enclosed since.) At the junction with the highway several miles farther, our map showed a water source. We got there and sure enough, there was a stream of water, flowing down the hillside. Then I noticed that all the willows along the stream were dead. Oh oh. Jim took a small taste, and sure enough, it was heavy metal runoff from mines above.

Bottom line, if there is no healthy plant life at the water source, don't drink it.

AggieAl
04-11-2013, 15:00
I live in southern NM and I would suggest that you consider taking the Steripen with you and using a bandana or sock or something to filter it.

We are in our third year of a drought and things will be very dry until you hit the Gila's. After you leave the Gila's it will be dry. Northern New Mexico should be fair.

It is likely that you will need to use a stock tank at some time.

Good luck and let me know if you have any questions.

zukiguy
04-11-2013, 18:46
Lots of the water here in FL will go into a filter and come out the same color. The tannins from cyprus leaves stain the water a deep brown. I haven't seen a filter yet that will take out the color (hiker pro, sawyer squeeze, first need, sweetwater, etc). Carbon element or not it's coming out looking like iced tea but it tastes fine and won't hurt you.

Dousing stock tank water with bleach (or Aqua-Mira) will probably make it safe if you use enough. It's basically the same green algae that turns my pool green. Problem is however, bleach "kills" by being an oxidizing agent. It reacts with the organic matter to break it down (breaks down the cell walls of the nasties to kill them). So if you have a ton of algae in the water it will take a lot of treatment (bleach: sodium hypochlorite) to break down all that material (like shocking your pool). There's no real way to measure how much you need in the field without some kind of sophisticated tests so just dumping in a bunch of bleach to sanitize tank water is kind of a "crap shoot".

SunnyWalker
12-29-2013, 10:15
I am jumping back into this thread I started long time ago. I am returning to re-start the CDT this April 2014. When I left to go in 2013 I took with me a Sawyer Squeeze and it performed marvelously. I had in storage at home or in bounce box: MSR Sweetwater filter, chemical treatment, and Steripen. Favorites are Sawyer and MSR Sweetwater. Least favorite: Chemical treatment and Steripen. Easy to use: Sawyer squeeze and chemicals. Ones I trusted least: chemicals and Steripen. One that was hardest to manage: Steripen (you must have the right width of mouth of your water container for the Steripen to fit into. Also you must have the correct batteries and this can be a mgmt difficulty. AND, it seemed slower then the Sawyer or the MSR. You ask, "What's your hurry?" Well, you have to be there.)

Thank you for all the feedback on this post. It really helped me. Continue on if you wish!

bamboo bob
01-02-2014, 21:29
I used a Gravity Filter in NM last year on the CDT. It worked great once I understood how to use it properly. I avoided cow water by tanking up and carrying more than I wanted to. But it was really no big deal. I;m a Gravity Filter convert for sure.

SunnyWalker
01-05-2014, 17:02
Hey bamboo bob, do you have a log online? If so, where at as I'd like to read it!