LNT How far do you go?

[chrisoc]

Where do you draw the line when it comes to Leave no trace. Is it Okay to spit out the shells of sunflower seeds as you walk? What about peanut shells? Egg shells?

Just how strict/lax are you?

[jesse]

I throw apple cores into the woods. I pack out orange and banana peels.
I leave poop in a shallow hole, pack out TP.

Spit out the sunflower seeds. Peanut hulls either toss off the trail or pack out. Do you really bring eggs?

[couscous]

My simple LNT goal is to neither alter the behavior of animals nor detract from the experience of others, so I take sunflower seeds and peanuts already shelled and leave the eggs at home.

[Penguin]

I think it takes about two to three years for the sunflower seeds and other shells to deteriorate, same as cigarette butts, so if you feel comfy spitting them out, you fall into the same category as people who toss their cigarette butts on the trail. Congrats on packing out the toilet paper. Go all the way with the LNT. There seem to be a ton of people on the AT might as well leave it as you found it for them. I do admit to hucking apple cores in the past, but now I only eat about 1 a year so I just would choose not to eat one instead of dealing with the trash.

The worst things of course are fire rings. There are a ton of them out there already. People who build new ones should be flogged. I don't even get the point of a fire unless there is some kind of big all late night party going on outside. Otherwise if it's cold just hop in the sleeping bag. Fire rings never go away when you build them and encourage people to make fires which is a dangerous practice in the woods.

[Rockhound]

When I smoked I switched to Bugler because they had no filters. A tiny piece of paper and tobacco that would not be seen and biodegrade quickly. It's 2 weeks now without smoke but I have had a great deal of incentive to quit. Aside from that I will burn my paper trash only and T.P. is burried or left in privies. Everything else is packed out and sometimes I find myself cleaning up after litterbugs if I am not too far from a proper place in which to dispose of it.
I never burn plastic or foil wrappers. Even the small Poptart or granola bar wrappers which I have heard others claim is perfectly OK to do as there is no evidence left behind. I disagree.

[P1nkPanther]

I used a protein bar wrapper as a glove to pick up someone else's toilet paper (left straight on the ground) this morning.

I think that answers your question.

[Rockhound]

As for peanut shells, sunflower seeds. I would not be packing the shells to begin with. Orange peels get packed out. Hard boiled egg shells get packed out. My rule of thumb is anything edible gets packed out as it could attract wildlife

[Rockhound]

I used a protein bar wrapper as a glove to pick up someone else's toilet paper (left straight on the ground) this morning.

I think that answers your question.
That goes way too far for me. I do not like looking at it either but I would quickly move on rather than risk illness and passing it along to other hikers. Remind me never to share gorp with you.

[P1nkPanther]

That goes way too far for me. I do not like looking at it either but I would quickly move on rather than risk illness and passing it along to other hikers. Remind me never to share gorp with you.

HA! Well, I did sanitize right after. But I'll make sure to keep my gorp to myself.

It wasn't on the trail, but at the camp site. I worry about someone else coming in, seeing trash on the ground, and feeling OK to add to it.

I go way overboard with lots of eco-scentric things. I don't expect others to follow suit, or even always appreciate that I do. Except my husband, so perhaps some kind thoughts for WalkinTom for putting up with me?

[innermountain]

A "trace" is a trace if it affects natural flora, fauna, or is seen by people. So sunflower seeds on the trail is definitely not in alignment with LNT. Apple cores and other fruit and vegetable pieces deep in the woods is ok in my book.

[Pedaling Fool]

I don't do LNT, just pack out trash, but leave the foodstuff. Doesn't hurt a damn thing.

[Lone Wolf]

Where do you draw the line when it comes to Leave no trace. Is it Okay to spit out the shells of sunflower seeds as you walk? What about peanut shells? Egg shells?

Just how strict/lax are you?

yes to all of the above

[Pedaling Fool]

What I don't understand is people pack out TP when using a cathole, but leave it when using the privy --- W-T-F people:confused:

[trailangelbronco]

I have switched to UL synthetic TP and am very impressed.

[Trailbender]

I never pack out TP, I consider it safer to leave behind than create a potential biohazard in my pack. For the fire thing, I will build one in an established ring, and I use a minimal amount of wood. I usually do this in nice weather to save on stove fuel, I can build a fire in bad weather, but it takes awhile to get it going. I pack out my garbage. Overall, I consider LNT to be guidelines rather than unbreakable rules.

[Tipi Walter]

The worst things of course are fire rings. There are a ton of them out there already. People who build new ones should be flogged. I don't even get the point of a fire unless there is some kind of big all late night party going on outside. Otherwise if it's cold just hop in the sleeping bag. Fire rings never go away when you build them and encourage people to make fires which is a dangerous practice in the woods.

Totally agree on this one. What gets me going is getting to a campsite and finding a new firepit built 10 or 15 feet from the old one. What, the old one's not good enough? I've scattered firepit rocks over the years, and cleared out camps of their rings, but most campers insist on having a fire, and usually a big butt fire, and usually will build one in high winds or not. They are a peculiar bunch.

Coupled with the Fire Madness is the need to bring in alcohol to ingest around an all-night bonfire. This is a real peeve, as then you get to endure long chortling yells, screams, and shouts late into the night by the loud, inbred drunks. One LNT principle is Shut The Heck Up and keep quiet! Campsite fires encourage high noise levels and induce alcohol retardation, a disease common in the Southeast woods where I live.

[JAK]

It depends on the location.
If other people might see it, I will leave no visible trace.
If it is a sensitive ecosystem, I will try and leave minimal impact.
If it is a typical robust ecosystem, I will use biomass, and leave biodegradeables.

[mweinstone]

i think when you leave food traces you atract bears.
you ruin the purity of the visual exsperience if your trash is seen
to feel like a jerk tossing shells and butts and seed husks and cores around.
it just aint your compost pile or trash can or personal property to trash
chicks dig dudes with big trash bags
matthewski hunts litterbugs with mantrakkerlike success rates returning their trash free

[Lone Wolf]

i usta bury tuna cans. now i just burn the foil packs that it comes in

[general]

a wise man once said "if you hold flame to anything, long enough, eventually, it will burn".

[general]

Totally agree on this one. What gets me going is getting to a campsite and finding a new firepit built 10 or 15 feet from the old one. What, the old one's not good enough? I've scattered firepit rocks over the years, and cleared out camps of their rings, but most campers insist on having a fire, and usually a big butt fire, and usually will build one in high winds or not. They are a peculiar bunch.

Coupled with the Fire Madness is the need to bring in alcohol to ingest around an all-night bonfire. This is a real peeve, as then you get to endure long chortling yells, screams, and shouts late into the night by the loud, inbred drunks. One LNT principle is Shut The Heck Up and keep quiet! Campsite fires encourage high noise levels and induce alcohol retardation, a disease common in the Southeast woods where I live.

sounds like you shouldn't camp near fire rings then.

[Pedaling Fool]

it just aint your compost pile
That's exactly how I see it (the woods); it is my personal compost pile. Just put any unwanted biodegradables under the leaf litter and let the microbes do their business. BTW, worms love eggshells (http://www.recycleworks.org/compost/wormfood.html)

[Trailbender]

Totally agree on this one. What gets me going is getting to a campsite and finding a new firepit built 10 or 15 feet from the old one. What, the old one's not good enough? I've scattered firepit rocks over the years, and cleared out camps of their rings, but most campers insist on having a fire, and usually a big butt fire, and usually will build one in high winds or not. They are a peculiar bunch.



Part of the skill of firebuilding is knowing when not to make one. There have been numerous times on my trips that I did not make a fire because it was too windy or something. When I do build a fire, it is small and efficient. There is no need for a huge one, it is a waste of fuel.

[rambunny]

If it doesn't naturally occur there-i.e. bananna peel ect. Don't leave it!

[Pedaling Fool]

If it doesn't naturally occur there-i.e. bananna peel ect. Don't leave it!
By following that line of logic I shouldn't compost banana peels, orange peels, watermelon rinds...actually most of the stuff I compost I shouldn't, because it's not native to this area. Look thru your produce section of your grocery store and try and pick out what's native and what's not; wouldn't be much left for you to take home if you only picked the native stuff.

What happens in my compost pile is nothing different than what happens in the compost of a wilderness floor, such as found along the AT. I think people get confused about this issue and the issue of invasive organisms.

[WingedMonkey]

That's exactly how I see it (the woods); it is my personal compost pile. Just put any unwanted biodegradables under the leaf litter and let the microbes do their business. BTW, worms love eggshells (http://www.recycleworks.org/compost/wormfood.html)

Can't believe every "pamphlet" put out there. While egg shells and peanut hulls will certainly break down in my compost piles my worms ain't interested.
I raise earthworms to feed my turtles and even after a year in the worm bins with the other waste I feed them the egg shells and peanut shells are still intact. My worms do love newspaper and cardboard (it must be the glue) but I don't leave either on the trail or around shelters.

:)

[Land_Shark]

What am I to do with my beer cans? For all the self rightious bs that people talk about doing and how one should act. All you need to do is go in the woods and you will see they are all liers.

[Rockhound]

What am I to do with my beer cans? For all the self rightious bs that people talk about doing and how one should act. All you need to do is go in the woods and you will see they are all liers.
Most of the time the beer cans are left by locals. The very reason long distance hikers/alkies carry cans is because they are lightweight and easy to carry out. In fact I know quite a few people who will often leave town with a six pack or more and every campsite they stay at winds up being a lot cleaner than before they got there. Be careful where you point that finger.

[Papa D]

LNT should become a state of mind - are you
being impactful? The answer is, yes - you
are impactful by just being there. that said,
packing it out is sooo easy - no one wants
to see your sunflower shells. So, I suppose
I go more or less "all the way" with this.
I do bury tiny bits of TP sometimes and
occasionally have a small fire (but I too
destroy) the fire rings. Other peoples TP .... I
might have poked it down with a stick and
covered it with some mulch - i do my paer
but being obsessive about anything is
unsustainable.

[trailangelbronco]

New rules to life.

Never bring up Religion, Politics or LNT in general discussions.

[sheepdog]

What am I to do with my beer cans? For all the self rightious bs that people talk about doing and how one should act. All you need to do is go in the woods and you will see they are all liers.

fire pits are actually recycle bins. Put your beer cans in there and the recyclers pick them up on a regular basis. There is no such thing as LNT. It's propaganda, pick up after yourself and try not to get all anal over an apple core or banana peel. :)

[sheepdog]

New rules to life.

Never bring up Religion, Politics or LNT in general discussions.
or leashed dogs etc......:D

[Rockhound]

New rules to life.

Never bring up Religion, Politics or LNT in general discussions.
Don't forget trail magic, dog leashes or cell phones

[Pedaling Fool]

Can't believe every "pamphlet" put out there. While egg shells and peanut hulls will certainly break down in my compost piles my worms ain't interested.
I raise earthworms to feed my turtles and even after a year in the worm bins with the other waste I feed them the egg shells and peanut shells are still intact. My worms do love newspaper and cardboard (it must be the glue) but I don't leave either on the trail or around shelters.

:)
Ok, you caught me in a little white-lie. The truth is, I really don't know what worms eat; I just know what I've read about them eating(in more than one reference), but I've found in other instances that the written word has been wrong, time and time again. Yet, still I read, maybe one day I'll learn my lesson:D

Fact is I've never seen a worm eat anything, everytime I see them they're squirming around like a fish out of water. But the simple fact is something eats all things mentioned. (BTW, if they do eat eggshells, I'd imagine it would not be while they are intact and visually discernible.) However, I understand that takes a long while for them to breakdown, so just because you see them doesn't mean they don't eat them, especially little bits that break/decay off slowly over time.

P.S. another factor is that there are few different species of worms that we collectively call the earth worm. They all look basically the same, but they do differ, for example the common earth worm are not good for worm farmers, they usually perfer the red wrigglers, although that's debatable between worm people.

[trailangelbronco]

And Leashed dogs! How could I forget?

Outwest, Horses on trails! All that horse poop on the trail gets old.

[mweinstone]

wolf aint never left a burnt foil pack anywhere anyway. thats the secret to understanding wolf. he talks like this to joke. but bambi's his momma.

and dont leave crap on the ground around me unless you want your own personal litterpicker upper following you hundreds apon thousands of miles picking up all your each and every seed shell husk half. and when folks say,"why is matthewski allways with you standing over there looking at you?"...all you will be able to do is bow your head, sigh,..and go.." hes waiting for me to litter so he can pick it up."
and folks will ask," why?"
and you will uncup your hand full of seed husks , dump them in a bag, and say," one time years ago and thousands of sunflower trail miles ago i threw trash on the ground. matthewski took a vow of annoyance as a child and does this crap alot."
and no cool chicks will want you cause you have no trash bag.

[WingedMonkey]

Ok, you caught me in a little white-lie. The truth is, I really don't know what worms eat; I just know what I've read about them eating(in more than one reference), but I've found in other instances that the written word has been wrong, time and time again. Yet, still I read, maybe one day I'll learn my lesson:D

Fact is I've never seen a worm eat anything, everytime I see them they're squirming around like a fish out of water. But the simple fact is something eats all things mentioned. (BTW, if they do eat eggshells, I'd imagine it would not be while they are intact and visually discernible.) However, I understand that takes a long while for them to breakdown, so just because you see them doesn't mean they don't eat them, especially little bits that break/decay off slowly over time.

P.S. another factor is that there are few different species of worms that we collectively call the earth worm. They all look basically the same, but they do differ, for example the common earth worm are not good for worm farmers, they usually perfer the red wrigglers, although that's debatable between worm people.

Yes red wrigglers are my bio farm. I think maybe I'll get you some manure worms :p.
I just feed the egg shells directly to the box turtles now for calcium, and leave the uneaten peanut shells in the worm castings to make my potting soil. Lightens it up a bit.

[Jim Adams]

If it doesn't naturally occur there-i.e. bananna peel ect. Don't leave it!

rambunny,
you got it right. The forest is not a compost bin, it is a naturally composting ecosystem meaning that if you can see it and it isn't a naturally occurring substance in that ecosystem then it is trash.

I have seen fires hot enough and big enought that the people with the fire are literally burning up aluminum cans...the aluminum "puddle" is still in the dirt though when the fire goes out.

Cigarette butts with filters take 100 years for the fibers to totally decompose. Orange peels can take 20 years in the desert to decompose as well as an apple core therefore if you truely want LNT, follow rambunny's advice...it is the only correct answer.

geek

[kayak karl]

Don't forget trail magic, dog leashes or cell phones
trekking poles, bear bagging and a whining YO-YO:D

[mweinstone]

if any of you were raised right, you wont believe this. but its truth.
we had galapogas turtles.
in our yard.
untill their adults, 75 years or so, they can winter over as far north as philly. and did. had pics of us fake rideing them. werent allowed to real ride them.gave em to the zoo. along with other animals each year. raccons mostly. that fell from the tree. had a one block high cinderblock wall that kept them in.
pack your damm egg shells out please.

[Pedaling Fool]

...therefore if you truely want LNT, follow rambunny's advice...it is the only correct answer.

geek
Ok, I don't want LNT.

pack your damm egg shells out please.
Sorry, but I'm one of those hikers that you're going to have to follow around:D

[blitz1]

this may be verging on TMI, but I belong to the school that believes you usually don't need TP - leaves should work fine unless you're having some GI upset, or it's winter and there are no good leaves. I like oak because they're pretty tough, but most broad leaves work well. no, I'm actually not joking - try it (just don't use poison ivy leaves pls)

[chrisoc]

Poison ivy TP could be a pain in the butt :-?

[Trailbender]

this may be verging on TMI, but I belong to the school that believes you usually don't need TP - leaves should work fine unless you're having some GI upset, or it's winter and there are no good leaves. I like oak because they're pretty tough, but most broad leaves work well. no, I'm actually not joking - try it (just don't use poison ivy leaves pls)

I have, leaves work better wet, and that moss is pretty good too.

[chrisoc]

It looks like we run the gamut from, to hell with LNT, to packing out used TP. I can understand the concept of trying to preserve the image of a pristine wilderness, but put used TP, a serious bio-hazard in the same pack with my food? No way!

BTW: Are there really people who pack out their poop? :eek:

[weary]

I think it takes about two to three years for the sunflower seeds and other shells to deteriorate, same as cigarette butts, so if you feel comfy spitting them out, you fall into the same category as people who toss their cigarette butts on the trail. Congrats on packing out the toilet paper. Go all the way with the LNT. There seem to be a ton of people on the AT might as well leave it as you found it for them. I do admit to hucking apple cores in the past, but now I only eat about 1 a year so I just would choose not to eat one instead of dealing with the trash. ....
Filter cigaret butts are made with artificial materials that take centuries to decay. Sunflower seeds are a natural substance, that quickly blend in with the twigs, branches, and the natural soil. There is no resemblance between the two substances.

[WingedMonkey]

BTW: Are there really people who pack out their poop? :eek:

You packed it in didn't ya?
:D

[weary]

By following that line of logic I shouldn't compost banana peels, orange peels, watermelon rinds...actually most of the stuff I compost I shouldn't, because it's not native to this area. Look thru your produce section of your grocery store and try and pick out what's native and what's not; wouldn't be much left for you to take home if you only picked the native stuff.

What happens in my compost pile is nothing different than what happens in the compost of a wilderness floor, such as found along the AT. I think people get confused about this issue and the issue of invasive organisms.
Compost piles differ from trash left on trails. Everything organic goes into my compost at home, even occasional newspapers. But I pack out orange peels because if I leave them on the trail, they will remain as a visual blight on the trail for months, sometimes years. Banana peels I tend to hide under rocks or logs.

I could do the same with orange peels, except I've seen them as litter so many times that I can't bring myself to do so.

[ScrapIron]

I just leave my trash in the shelters. I figure some do-gooder will pack it out for me or the rats will turn the edible stuff into compost pretty quickly.

[mweinstone]

Filter cigaret butts are made with artificial materials that take centuries to decay. Sunflower seeds are a natural substance, that quickly blend in with the twigs, branches, and the natural soil. There is no resemblance between the two substances.
they both are not from there
they both were dropped by hikers
they both stick out to the eye as forign and interupt the continuity of the asthetics
they both get picked up by a pissed matthewski
they both represent a missinturpretation of lnt
they both make you look bad throwing them down to some folks if you care
they both are violations of written law and the code of the modern lnt hiker
dont make me continue. i could.

[Pedaling Fool]

Compost piles differ from trash left on trails. Everything organic goes into my compost at home, even occasional newspapers. But I pack out orange peels because if I leave them on the trail, they will remain as a visual blight on the trail for months, sometimes years. Banana peels I tend to hide under rocks or logs.

I could do the same with orange peels, except I've seen them as litter so many times that I can't bring myself to do so.
I admit I don't like to leave food trash out in the open in the woods, only because it's just a little ugly. So I also place stuff like banana peels, orange peels.... under the leave litter. But these things on the open ground does nothing to harm nature in the least (seems to me by your posts you would agree with that), but like I said, understand the aesthetic issue and so I put it under leaf litter.

As for a comparison between my compost pile and a healthy forest floor. That would be interesting if we could do an organism-by-organism comparison. I can't do that, but I can say that microbes, whether here or there, are our trashmen and orange peels or whatever will be devoured and converted into food for plants.

To me, the thought of throwing foodstuff in the trash to be transported to a landfill is just too offensive.

So, that's why I'll leave LNT to the rest of you'll and will continue to feed the microbes.

[The Counselor]

I hover above the trail, never leaving so much as a footprint in the detritus.

[mweinstone]

if i stay home and hike vicariously thru miss janet, am i leaveing any kind of resenence traces in the time space continuim? like thaught tracks or imagination trails? and arent the tiny etched notches in my memory chains of my "brain", unatural? i mean they wouldnt be all notched up. and where do the notched out bits fall? thats right, on the ground. every time you think.

[cavediver256]

LNT??? Has anyone noticed that 2,175 mile path carved into the surface of the earth from GA to Maine??? What about the "white blazes" every few hundred feet in both damn directions???? Those nifty little 3 walled huts every 2-4 miles apart come to mind as well. I guess all that stuff just shot the whole LNT concept all to hell !!!!

If you have set one foot on that trail, you have made some type of impact. I think the key here is to have as minimal an impact as possible. Hike out your trash, bury or hike out your poop and TP, but please don't tell me you are a hiker and you believe for one second you are truly leaving NO trace.

[weary]

I just leave my trash in the shelters. I figure some do-gooder will pack it out for me or the rats will turn the edible stuff into compost pretty quickly.
That comment is not useful. Nor is it funny. Nor does it help with an increasingly serious problem.

[weary]

LNT??? Has anyone noticed that 2,175 mile path carved into the surface of the earth from GA to Maine??? What about the "white blazes" every few hundred feet in both damn directions???? Those nifty little 3 walled huts every 2-4 miles apart come to mind as well. I guess all that stuff just shot the whole LNT concept all to hell !!!!

If you have set one foot on that trail, you have made some type of impact. I think the key here is to have as minimal an impact as possible. Hike out your trash, bury or hike out your poop and TP, but please don't tell me you are a hiker and you believe for one second you are truly leaving NO trace.
I pretty much agree. Which is why I've argued in favor of abandoning LNT and substituting the old "Carry In, Carry out." Carry In, Carry Out, doesn't solve the entire problem. But LNT, though it theoretically would solve all litter problems, in fact, being unrealistic to any sensible human minds, solves none of them.

[Pedaling Fool]

This is what LNT leads to: http://humanitariannews.org/20110413/un-document-would-give-mother-earth-same-rights-humans

UN Document Would Give 'Mother Earth' Same Rights as Humans

13 April, 2011 - 17:51


UNITED NATIONS — Bolivia will this month table a draft United Nations treaty giving "Mother Earth" the same rights as humans — having just passed a domestic law that does the same for bugs, trees and all other natural things in the South American country.

The bid aims to have the UN recognize the Earth as a living entity that humans have sought to "dominate and exploit" — to the point that the "well-being and existence of many beings" is now threatened.




They are creating A New Religion. If you read history and look at how people reacted to certain calamities and natural disasters and how they would do the craziest things IOT please the gods. There is absolutely no difference here and we fool ourselves by referencing science here and there, but it ain't science -- it is a religious belief.

Freakin' 'Mother Earth' How is that not a religion :datz

[ScrapIron]

That comment is not useful. Nor is it funny. Nor does it help with an increasingly serious problem.

Awwww shucks. I'm crushed that you did not find my little comment to be funny....or helpful...or useful.

I live to make you happy.

[Pedaling Fool]

I pretty much agree. Which is why I've argued in favor of abandoning LNT and substituting the old "Carry In, Carry out." Carry In, Carry Out, doesn't solve the entire problem. But LNT, though it theoretically would solve all litter problems, in fact, being unrealistic to any sensible human minds, solves none of them.
Then you shouldn't leave your banana peels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pack_it_in,_pack_it_out

Excerpt:
....The idea is to remove all forms of litter (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Litter) and biodegradable waste (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Biodegradable_waste) from the natural area for proper disposal so that the materials will cause no harm to the natural resources (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Natural_resources) of the ecosystem (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Ecosystem). ...


BTW, what is "proper disposal" of biodegradable waste.

Seriously why is it ok to leave your **** and TP in the woods, but not egg shells, coffee grounds, orange peels.... Is it to maintain the delicate balance of nature:rolleyes:

[ScrapIron]

I have started to feel very guilty about leaving a couple of peanut shells in the vicinity of Big Bald. I'm taking the rest of the day off to head up there to find them and haul them back out, lest the ecosystem in the area be irreparably damaged.
I am praying for forgiveness from the WB LNT Gods as well as making a sizable donation to the ATC in an effort to assuage the guilt which plagues me so.

[Old Hiker]

I hover above the trail, never leaving so much as a footprint in the detritus.

You are still sucking in the oxygen that the animals need, thereby slowing them down since they can't breath enough O2 in, upsetting the predator/prey relationships. :eek:

The carbon dioxide you spew out increases the overall CO2 in the area, thereby increasing the size of the vegetation around the trail, which forces the maintainers to come out more frequently, who have to make more of an impact. :eek:

Bubble boy hiking, anyone? Virtual hiking? 3-D anime hiking? :-?

But hovering would make #2 SO much easier!! ;)

[lutefisk]

I have started to feel very guilty about leaving a couple of peanut shells in the vicinity of Big Bald. I'm taking the rest of the day off to head up there to find them and haul them back out...
Any excuse for a hike.

[kayak karl]

LNT??? Has anyone noticed that 2,175 mile path carved into the surface of the earth from GA to Maine??? What about the "white blazes" every few hundred feet in both damn directions???? Those nifty little 3 walled huts every 2-4 miles apart come to mind as well. I guess all that stuff just shot the whole LNT concept all to hell !!!!

If you have set one foot on that trail, you have made some type of impact. I think the key here is to have as minimal an impact as possible. Hike out your trash, bury or hike out your poop and TP, but please don't tell me you are a hiker and you believe for one second you are truly leaving NO trace.
you sound like a man with principles. im assuming you don't hike the AT to keep them.

[cavediver256]

you sound like a man with principles. im assuming you don't hike the AT to keep them.

LOL, no sir, I do hike the AT Karl, but I don't run around lying to myself or anyone else about being a LNT hiker either. I do try and have as little impact on the environment as I possibly can.

I guess I just don't like the terminology "Leave NO Trace"......

[rambunny]

there is something about changing animals diet also with our refuge-i.e. the deer dying in SNP from hot dogs ect.

[skooch]

The LNT ethic almost caused me some road rage as I sat behind a pickup truck stopped at a light the other day. Just before the light turned green the driver swung her left arm out the window and dropped her half filled Mountain Dew can in the street. My blood boiled! The earth is not a trash can :(

[weary]

The LNT ethic almost caused me some road rage as I sat behind a pickup truck stopped at a light the other day. Just before the light turned green the driver swung her left arm out the window and dropped her half filled Mountain Dew can in the street. My blood boiled! The earth is not a trash can :(
Walkers leave very little trash in my experience. But the presence of internal combustion engines seems to stimulate the urge to throw stuff away. On a weekend walk on one of our land trust trails the only trash I saw was in an area frequented by snowmobiles.

I wouldn't mind if they would just drop their cans and lunch remains near the trail. But most persist in tossing the stuff deep in the bushes where it's difficult to remove.

[Pedaling Fool]

there is something about changing animals diet also with our refuge-i.e. the deer dying in SNP from hot dogs ect.
Negative. Any scraps, if any, a hiker throws out is not going to affect the eating habits of wildlife. You can't draw parallels between this issue and tourist in SNP feeding wildlife, nor can you compare it to dumpsters overflowing with food scraps.

Unless of course it's the dumpsters that hikers use to "properly dispose" of their foodstuff.:D

[Penguin]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why are people arguing for the right to litter? I think I learned to throw stuff in the trash in grade school? Is it really that hard to understand that you should just pack out your trash? Foot prints are meant for the trail, trash is not. Also for those that used backyard composting as a reason to prove that organics are not harmful, that's your own property, do as you wish, your using it for your garden. On public land though everyone needs to respect each other and just leave the area as you found it, without degrading the resource for the next user. Millions of people use parts of the AT every year, if everyone left just a little litter, I imagine the place would literally be trashed. If everyone ate one orange and left the peal on the trail, the AT would be paved in orange. It isn't really that hard to do the right thing and pack out your trash. It is much lighter on the way out when it's only a wrapper, or peal.

Reminds me of PCT 09 when during the first week I found a ziplock baggie of about 20 alkaline batteries that was buried in a shady spot 2 feet from the trail, then dug up by an animal and chewed on. No sane person would want to clean up this guys mess of leaking batteries, no sane person would have brought that many extra batteries for the first week, no sane person would think it was cool to bury batteries. The biggest loser there was the animal that probably died after chewing on them.

[ScrapIron]

I doubt that few, if any of us, actually "litter". I certainly do not.

Some of us just enjoy getting a rise out of the High Priests of LNT...just for the heck of it. Most grownups know how to conduct themselves out on the trail.

[Pedaling Fool]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why are people arguing for the right to litter? I think I learned to throw stuff in the trash in grade school? Is it really that hard to understand that you should just pack out your trash? Foot prints are meant for the trail, trash is not.
I don’t see leftover foods as trash. I don’t care if you pack out your foodstuff, but it irks me when someone accuses me of littering because I leave foodstuff under leaf litter.




Also for those that used backyard composting as a reason to prove that organics are not harmful, that's your own property, do as you wish, your using it for your garden.
You seem to be saying that, "I should compost at my own risk" :rolleyes: You really don’t know how the natural world works.


On public land though everyone needs to respect each other and just leave the area as you found it, without degrading the resource for the next user. Millions of people use parts of the AT every year, if everyone left just a little litter, I imagine the place would literally be trashed. If everyone ate one orange and left the peal on the trail, the AT would be paved in orange.

Typical stupid argument. It just ain’t going to happen. What if all them millions of people shltted in the privies:rolleyes:
BTW, for all the foodstuff leftover by all hikers(which on average isn't much at all) not one single person needs to pack out their food stuff. Just place it under the leaf litter as you leave camp (a little off the trail) and there will never be an accumulation of stuff. Virtually no one packs out their shlt and trust me for all the food leftovers there is far less volume.


Reminds me of PCT 09 when during the first week I found a ziplock baggie of about 20 alkaline batteries that was buried in a shady spot 2 feet from the trail, then dug up by an animal and chewed on. No sane person would want to clean up this guys mess of leaking batteries, no sane person would have brought that many extra batteries for the first week, no sane person would think it was cool to bury batteries. The biggest loser there was the animal that probably died after chewing on them.
Again failing to understand the argument, has nothing to do with plastic baggies, batteries…geez get with the program dude.

[ScrapIron]

John, you are a bad person. I cannot believe that you don't pack your poop out! And to think that you'd leave several grains of rice and an apple core in the woods!

[Penguin]

You guys ever live in a problem bear area?

[Skidsteer]

I have switched to UL synthetic TP and am very impressed.

Yes, it dries more quickly than traditional TP and is warmer when wet but you can never really wash the stink out.

[general]

You guys ever live in a problem bear area?

we've got plenty of black bears here in georgia, but they're all trained to eat from bags hanging in trees.

[mweinstone]

woe woe woe...only weirdos get stupid about litter. lets leave it to the professionals boys.your the litterer, im the litteree. lets just keep that well defined.
carry on.
littering.

[mweinstone]

i just belive everyone should do what their good at.

[SassyWindsor]

A good many "hikers" get trash cans and fire-rings mixed up. Just ask some trail maintenance people.

[Fiddleback]

I hike/camp with the intent that no one (other than trackers of movie legend...you know who you are :D) can tell I was there, foot prints excluded.;) I know I leave 'traces' but they are difficult to discern.

I also make it a point to leave the campsite/trail cleaner than I found it but, sadly, sometimes that starts to add up to a lot of extra pack weight/bulk.

FB

[Pedaling Fool]

i just belive everyone should do what their good at.
I'm good at listening to the florae and they say, "please leave me some nutrients; just place it under the leaf litter so as to expedite its delivery to my roots. For man cannot live by bread alone and we cannot live by :sun alone".;)

[FlyPaper]

Where do you draw the line when it comes to Leave no trace. Is it Okay to spit out the shells of sunflower seeds as you walk? What about peanut shells? Egg shells?

Just how strict/lax are you?

Personally, I leave food waste in the woods. I don't eat sunflower seeds, so I can't comment on how long they stay around.

I try to dispose bio-degradables far enough into the woods that there is virtually no chance they'll be seen before they biodegrade. I unintentionally left a whole banana in a plastic bag on my desk for a few weeks at work. It was pure liquid when I found it. A banana peel 10 yards off the trial won't likely ruin anyone's view in the short time it will persist. And most would agree it's better off in the woods than in a city dump (which is where it would wind up if I packed it out).

I try to pick up trash I see at shelters, especially if it's my last night on the trail for the trip.

[chrisoc]

I can understand that it is disturbing to see trash/garbage on and around the trail, but I cannot for the life of me understand the logic that says it is okay to bury feces but not okay to bury an orange peel.

[88BlueGT]

I believe that I do a very good job of LNT. ANYTHING that I pack in, I pack out. With the exception of toilet paper, that gets buried. Garbage, depending on what kind of wrappers, etc. they are will SOMETIMES get burned. I smoke and put every single cigarette butt in garbage bag, every time, no exception. I also pick up other peoples cigarette butts all the time, along with garbage, beer bottles, etc.

Last weekend I picked up atleast 10 cigarette butts, scattered someone elses fire ring, my own fire ring after I was done, packed out 2 beer cans, one beer bottle, a tent stake and a gatorade bottle. Same trip I also removed a tee shirt that was flapping in the wind tied onto a tree that was down 30yrs off the trail. I removed it and than seen that there was a dreamcatcher hanging on the tree, I was going to take it but figured someone put it there for a reason :/ and if I took it, I'd be haunted for life or something, thats just my luck.

[FlyPaper]

Indeed.

It is absolutely amazing that a human smart enough to follow roads to a trail head and the trail to a campsite would think he's done his civic duty to take his empties to the fire ring as proper disposal.

I would love to hear the thought process.


A good many "hikers" get trash cans and fire-rings mixed up. Just ask some trail maintenance people.

[hikerboy57]

Im not sure why its in issue to pack anything out that you brought with you in the first pace. You shouldnt have much waste left, and its still lighter than what you packed in(excluding feces, which i bury).Its not just seeing waste in the woods, but alien species do not belong in a new environment. Im not anal about LNT, its still just a guideline to minimize your impact, not eliminate it altogether( or none of us could hike)If you packed it in, Just pack it out.

[ChinMusic]

I pack out robin eggs.

[88BlueGT]

Indeed.

It is absolutely amazing that a human smart enough to follow roads to a trail head and the trail to a campsite would think he's done his civic duty to take his empties to the fire ring as proper disposal.

I would love to hear the thought process.

I DON'T 'take my empties to the fire ring'. If I burn a few ramen bags in my 15'' fire ring, the world will survive, I promise you. When I leave my site looks like its never been touched, every time. Also, I didn't say that burning it was PROPER disposal so don't try to make this something that it isn't. THANKS :cool:

[jcb]

Am I the only one who burns their tp in the catholic? Splash a little water on it.

[ChinMusic]

Am I the only one who burns their tp in the catholic? Splash a little water on it.
smartphone user?

[sheepdog]

Negative. Any scraps, if any, a hiker throws out is not going to affect the eating habits of wildlife. You can't draw parallels between this issue and tourist in SNP feeding wildlife, nor can you compare it to dumpsters overflowing with food scraps.

Unless of course it's the dumpsters that hikers use to "properly dispose" of their foodstuff.:D
don't try to confuse the issue


with common sense :D