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View Full Version : Winter Snow = 2011 JMT Gear Modifications....?



tuswm
04-12-2011, 14:29
what I want to know......

snow gear?
what do i need? boots? ice ax? crampons? gators? added snow or ice traction? snow shoes?

river crossings?
is bare foot OK?
how many water crossings are there?

Bug issues?
head net? deet? permathin? other cloths?

Cold weather cloths?

tuswm
04-12-2011, 15:00
This is my gear list as of now.......
My questions are below. Thanks for your time.

big 4
trimmed osprey atmos 65L back pack
tart tent double rainbow
REI sub kilo 20* sleeping bag
therma rest Z-lite sleeping pad

Kitchen
BV500 bear can
steri pen w/ batteries
bladder 100 oz
gsi dualist pot, bowl, cups
snow peak giga stove
fuel canister
silverware TI
pocket knife

clothes
primary
synthetic t-shirt
MHW convertable pants
under armor boxer briefs
wools socks
asolo fugitive boots
non primary cloths
sun glasses
sun hat
wind shirt (water resistant w/ hood)
MHW fleece
MHW base top
shorts
spare underwear
spare socks
MHW green beanie
I should be fine down to 30 sitting around camp with this.


other
head lamp w/ batteries
oh SH1T kit 1st aid, duck tape, matches, sewing kit
toletries chapstick, lighter, tp, tooth brush, tooth paste, deoterant, floss
rope
Map Book
sun screen
bug repellents
================================================== ================================================== ================================================== ===========================================

Right now my base weight is about 19 - 20 before
food
water
fuel

also I was not planning on these things but the snow has me considering......
gloves thin black liners?
fleece base bottom?
head net?
hard shell ( water proof)?
gators?
river crossing/ camp shoes?
snow ice traction?
rain cover for pack?

I feel like I am missing something. I am also worried Ill get up there for 3 weeks and not be prepared for something like wind and cold. how many river crossing are there? I have never had to do one deep enough to get my feet wet. How much time and i going to spend trekking across the snow? Will i be post holing?

Helmuth.Fishmonger
04-12-2011, 15:12
If I were to do a July 2010 hike (and I am not - going in October this year), I'd bring the following:

La Sportiva Trango GTX with full gaiter (OD Crocodiles or Expedition) - this setup will walk well on snow without crampons, and for 95% of the water you cross, you just walk through. Big time saver. Also supports well. I don't do floppy running shoes even in the best of climates, so YMMV. Ice axe is dead weight for the entire trail unless you hike without poles. If the snow is bad at Forester, the ice axe will be useful for about 50 feet crossing the snow in the deep ravine that cuts across the trail just south of the pass.

For the deep water crossings, I'd use my Sprint Auatics shoes, super light, but enough protection to keep you safe from sharp rocks and fishing hooks. Tested in three wet summers, I see no need to go heavier on those shoes. I don't use them for camp - boots untied work just fine for that

how many water crossings? we took our shoes off about 5 or 6 times last year, while a person without gaiters and waterproof boots probably would have to do it about 40-50 times unless they are fine walking around wet all day.

Bugs: treat clothes with permethrin, long sleeves and pants, DEET on exposed skin when they get thick. Nothing different from a normal July hike. Definitely use a bug proof shelter. When the bugs get insane (Long Meadow in Yosemite was the worst in 2009, in 2010 it was the south end of Evolution Lake), move to another place. Really not a huge deal. After a few days on the trail, I usually get used to them and they really don't bother me much.

Cold weather clothes: it won't be much colder than normal when there's snow, but you can expect a much more active thunderstorm pattern, with all the moisture up there creating local weather. good rain gear is key in a snow-heavy year - gear that keeps you dry while moving, because if it's really bad, you probably will need to hike in the rain frequently. A good tent that is known to handle rain for a multi-day storm in gusty conditions would also be a good thing to have.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
04-12-2011, 15:29
wind shirt (water resistant w/ hood)


that's your rain gear?

Here's a close up of your normal Sierra trail, about 9500 feet elevation (this was Mt. Whitney trail, almost at Lone Pine Lake). This storm only lasted 90 minutes, but it was rather violent. Nothing like the 3 hour hail storm we had July 12, 2008 on top of Donohue Pass, when I thought we're all gonna die (an 12 houses were washed away in Independence...)

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0719/slides/IMG_1388.jpg

another view:

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0719/slides/IMG_1389.jpg

Note the floating hail in what became a pretty good stream flowing down the trail. This is not an exception - most storms do this, and some will last for 36 hours or more. I have done entire JMTs without getting rained on, but all those hikes were after 40% drought winters. When there's moisture on the mountain, you get storms. In July, you also get monsoon flow from Arizona, and that's where gore-tex top to bottom (and a pack cover), or a really REALLY good poncho can save your trip, or at least keep the morale up a little longer. Water "resistant" just won't cut it. you will get wet in those things.

And bring that rain cover for the pack! I have not found a water proof bag. Som pack everyting in big black garbage bags inside the pack, but I hate that mess, plus they do tear after a while. An external rain cover, if it fits well, does keep things dry for camp, even if you hike in rain all day.

I used Ponchos and Marmot Precip jacket/pants on the JMT. Not sure what I like better. The Poncho saves you the pack cover if sized well, but if it's windy, it won't keep you dry. It will keep you cooler if you have to hike in rain. The Gore-tex clothing is part of my layering setup anyway, so I figure it's already in the pack, so why bother with the poncho. Thing is, when it's on/off rainy, the gore-tex jackets and pants can get rather hot on the trail. We had such a day last year. Make sure the colors of that stuff are light, so they don't cook you during those brief interludes of sunshine before the next cloud hits you.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
04-12-2011, 15:33
my 2010 gear list - wouldn't change much about it for this year if I went in July

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/Muir2009/faq/peter_gear_2010.htm

tuswm
04-12-2011, 22:20
OK

need real boots...
this is what i plan on using
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/8mHOFFEs-PThrkOFcmT_q54L1ULXA_PLbVahWEVWGpbI3sfa2eCC6PmSZ7d PUoVP_co0xk592_jfMwXRJnJ7z6ZNzdUrZLnvs5UUupcjSD4jl vTDGPEGIPPqJqsxewtKYQM4hATvcr6S5RFuUhJPD7lhEvBbS56 iHXdHtfjR3ExdbVZ6dWpz1Oci2TWQWP8GaA
need real GTX shell
deet
permathin



considering.......
gators
creek crossing shoes
head net?

Woods
04-12-2011, 22:25
When are you going on the trail? If there was a date listed I missed it.

fiddlehead
04-12-2011, 22:35
Yeah, the date means a lot this year.
I've heard 50' of snow in some places in the Sierras.
I don't mind walking on old snow and actually enjoy it.
But the fords will be tough throughout July I would think.
Know proper technique for sure and take time to search for the best place.
I would definitely take a head net.
And know how to self arrest (practice most days on the kind of snow you will be needing it in)
Good luck.

tuswm
04-12-2011, 22:55
Well its in another thread but we will be starting the last week in July

tuswm
04-12-2011, 23:01
and how do you self arrest on snow with no ice ax?

Helmuth.Fishmonger
04-12-2011, 23:23
and how do you self arrest on snow with no ice ax?


you don't. Those who have an ice axe usually don't either, unless they are very experienced and actually have practiced how to do this and actually have the ice axe in their hands when needed.

Most ice axes out in summer spend the JMT strapped to the back of a pack. Heck, I had mine strapped to the pack two weeks ago on Whitney for the most part, and that was on the Mountaineer's Route in full winter conditions. These things are nice when the going gets very steep. The rest of the time, hiking poles are much more effective.

Like I said before, there is really only one place where things get steep on the snow on the JMT - just below Forester on the south side. Could use it north of Mather, too, if you're not totally cool with a 35-40 degree slope.

The lightest ice axes weigh a pound - I'd bring one in early July, not in late July.

Dogwood
04-13-2011, 02:23
I'm with HM on most of his ice axe advice. If you are going to haul one KNOW how to use it(learn self arrest and practice it) and be aware of where you would use it should you need to. Two of the most dangerous places, should it be decided you need need it, IF IF IF, after checking snow level reports(www.postholer (http://www.postholer/)) just before you head out to the JMT(also check with the BACK COUNTRY RANGERS OFFICE in Yosemite Vally at Yosemite NP about present snow conditions before you head off, these are the guys who hike the trail and report about just such things, I find their info if it's up to date to be the most useful, better than graphs or opnions of what might be), are where HM mentioned going SOBO.

HM also mentions using trekking poles for self arrest - certainly possible should you unexpectedly encounter some very brief stretches of steep snow and/or ice. I have also use a long flat rock when unexpectedly encountering a brief steep snowfield.

Late July start though, starting out at Happy Isles, given that you are going SOBO(I think that's the way you said you are going), and that it will take several hiking days before you hit Forrester Pass(meaning that's more time for the snow to melt) and warm thawing temps and and and??? Get my drift? Pun intended! Just make those last minute snow level checks and adjust your gear accordingly.

Camp Corsa Iceaxe - 7 oz., about $110, aluminum shaft and head, the real thing! UL!

Helmuth.Fishmonger
04-13-2011, 11:51
HM also mentions using trekking poles for self arrest -

actually, I didn't mean to imply that. Use them to avoid losing your balance and falling in the first place. Once you get sliding, I doubt you can do much with them unless you buy some custom poles that have the self-arrest feature built in like this Black Diamond Pole - note these are sold per item, so a pair is $$$

http://www.backcountry.com/black-diamond-whippet-self-arrest-ski-pole

I've been in situations that appeared "easy" at first, so I walked out onto a snow drift with just snow shoes and poles, only to realize mid snow field, that the snow was all different (wind packed, no grip in the snow shoes, even though they are the very aggressive kind with metal traction bards below). So then mid snow field, I am taking them off, to pound steps into the hard white stuff, 1000 feet of 45+ degree slope below me, with what appears to be a rather abrupt end in snow free talus... No chance to put crampons on, ice axe is on the back of the pack and that thing is too heavy to dare to take off in that position... those are the moments you look back at on the other side saying "damn, I should have turned around early and changed to crampons and ice axe, instead of doing the stupid thing I did..."

you learn from that stuff. I certainly have a whole new outlook on these expensive self-arrest trekking poles, and I know I'll get them for my winter-JMT. For summer? Nah.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
04-13-2011, 11:58
going SOBO, if worried about snow on Mather and Forester, perhaps even Glen in a bad year, you could mail that ice axe with your resupply to MTR, although I doubt it would fit into a bucket. Maybe to VVR, where you can mail packages of any shape. Saves you a few ounces on the northern half.

But again, in late July, you will probably use the thing for no more than 200 feet of snow. In early July, things may be intersting in places you rarely see snow, such as upper Le Conte Canyon, or sections of the south face of Mather. Glen is a wild card with high snow, depending on where the winds were blowing from in winter. Each summer in recent years was very different up there. It's not about how much snow fell, but where it accumulated. The normal average snow depth would easily melt off on these passes, even at 600", but what happens is that in some ravines, you will get 1800" of snow, and much of that will be there through August.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
04-13-2011, 12:03
OK

need real boots...
this is what i plan on using
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/8mHOFFEs-PThrkOFcmT_q54L1ULXA_PLbVahWEVWGpbI3sfa2eCC6PmSZ7d PUoVP_co0xk592_jfMwXRJnJ7z6ZNzdUrZLnvs5UUupcjSD4jl vTDGPEGIPPqJqsxewtKYQM4hATvcr6S5RFuUhJPD7lhEvBbS56 iHXdHtfjR3ExdbVZ6dWpz1Oci2TWQWP8GaA
need real GTX shell
deet
permathin



considering.......
gators
creek crossing shoes
head net?

The boots are what my son used in 2008. He liked them - good compromise between a "real boot" and a lighter shoe. They did wear out after one JMT, though.

Gaitors - for summer, the light OD Verglas are fine, since you don't have to have fabric that can withstand crampons from tearing into them. My kids used them for two summers and they were great on semi-flooded crossings where the rocks were under water, but not more than 8"

http://www.backcountry.com/outdoor-research-verglas-gaiter-mens

size them so they are very snug around the bottom where the sit on the boot - that's what keeps the water down below the boot rim when you splash through streams.

here's your typical July crossing that won't even slow you down with this setup:

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100722/slides/DSC_2055.jpg

tuswm
04-13-2011, 14:36
Man every time I talk to you guys my pack gets heavier.

schnikel
04-13-2011, 21:48
Man every time I talk to you guys my pack gets heavier.

Funny as hell! And exactly what I was thinking! This sounds like it will be a fun year to hike the JMT.
Schnikel

tuswm
04-14-2011, 01:33
whats your start date?

schnikel
04-14-2011, 16:42
Aug. 15th from glacier point. My wife and I are planning on 17 days to get to Whitney including 1 zerro at VVR.
Schnikel

tuswm
04-16-2011, 13:49
I went to the REI attic sale today and picked up 3 things
VFF toe shoes
Neo Air no weight savings but comfier x 1000 then a z rest and smaller
Outdoor Research Verglas Gaiter

all for 70 bucks

Dogwood
04-16-2011, 23:58
Just the Neo Air costs more than $70 retail. Sounds like you did good.

HM, when are you going to change where you live to "THE SIERRAS?"

Helmuth.Fishmonger
04-17-2011, 01:21
I went to the REI attic sale today and picked up 3 things
VFF toe shoes
Neo Air no weight savings but comfier x 1000 then a z rest and smaller
Outdoor Research Verglas Gaiter

all for 70 bucks

those pads are great as long as they don't leak. I went back to foam after a few uncomfortable hikes, having to re-inflate twice a night sometimes.

check that pad in the bath tub, sleep on it at home. Make sure it doesn't have a slow leak in the valve for example. bring a patch kit.

tuswm
04-17-2011, 13:24
does duck tape work as a patch?

tuswm
04-17-2011, 14:42
those pads are great as long as they don't leak. I went back to foam after a few uncomfortable hikes, having to re-inflate twice a night sometimes..

So what did you not like about it? I know a lot of people love them. I did notice that when you blow it up it gets thinner. The one I got was still in the box with paper work. Was return because "to small". Also came with a stuff sack. I dont know if they usually come with a stuff sack. Also I blew it up and let it sit for about four hours and didnt notice any difference but I didnt have my body weight on it.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
04-17-2011, 15:49
So what did you not like about it? I know a lot of people love them. I did notice that when you blow it up it gets thinner. The one I got was still in the box with paper work. Was return because "to small". Also came with a stuff sack. I dont know if they usually come with a stuff sack. Also I blew it up and let it sit for about four hours and didnt notice any difference but I didnt have my body weight on it.

I didn't like the fact that 4 hours into the night, I was sleeping on the ground. At first I thought it was just the very cold ground and the air pressure dropped from the warm exhaled air cooling, but after testing at home where it's warm, I know it leaks all on its own, very slowly.

Still can't find the hole, and I even had a new valve sent from the manufacturer after I saw a few bubbles come from that. Still didn't fix it. Last summer, after 3 days (TM to Happy Isles and back), I went to the Yosemite Mountaineering store and bought a Ridgerest, left the inflatable in the car. Never looked back. The foam is lighter, I strap it to the outside, and it's always ready to go, even during a short break when you want a comfy seat in 20 seconds.

To sit on it for an hour isn't enough of a test. Lay it on the cold ground outside, and ideally sleep on it or leave some heavy stuff on it overnight. If it's near fully inflated in the morning, you're good to go until you poke a hole in it.

There are proper patch kits available for pads, but I bet duct tape will be ok for a while. My pad came with a patch kit including special glue.

Even in winter, I now just take two foam pads (one full length, the other 3/4). Can't afford to sleep on snow with a flat inflatable.

Now, as long as you don't have a hole in a foam pad, they are more comfortable. It's just not worth the risk and weight to me any longer.

Dogwood
04-17-2011, 16:22
Sure, as with ALL inflatable pads, check it out before you head out to the trail with it.

The valve leak that some NeoAir owners complained about was addressed and fixed by Cacade Designs which to my knowledge was associated with only initial production runs of the NeoAir. I have never had to reinflate either of my two Neo Airs(short and med lengths) unless they had a hole which I acquired AFTER I bought them in perfect condition. I have never had a valve leak in either of my two Neo Airs. I never had any of those earlier versions(initial production runs), which also to my knowledge, Cascade Designs evenly exchanged for a later defect free version(production run) at no charge to the owners.

HM, not sure where you bought your Neo Air but sounds like Cascade Designs or the outfitter where you possibly bought it should evenly exchange it for a new one! I would push forward with that exchange if you can!

I used my Neo Air on the Sierra High Route, often setting up on bare granite slabs(no ground cloth cowboy style, wouldn't recommend this for everyone or for these type of sleep set-up conditions extensively though!), with no problem with this inflatable mattress.

If you know how to treat UL gear, which this obviously is, with the TLC UL gear sometimes demands you should not have a problem on the JMT with this inflatable pad! If in doubt include a ground cloth in your sleep set-up and take a look at where you will be sleeping for little twigs, bits of glass, or sharp rocks, etc Same can be equally said about where you set up a tent!

BTW, the holes in my Neo Air came from when I used it, somewhat indiscriminately, in Hawaii on a thorny Mesquite tree laden hike. That's my self induced problem, NOT Cascade Designs fault! I fixed the pin hole leaks in 3 hrs dry time with a few dabs of Mcnetts Seam Sealer after having to spend two sleeping nights with duct tape over the holes. There are several other products that can permanently fix these types of holes. Most simply and conveniently located is urethane glue(rubber cement) which is found at any place that sells bicycle inner tube repair kits.

Dogwood
04-17-2011, 16:26
TUSWM, I commend you for doing your pre-hike planning. Seems like you'll be ready when you get to the TH!!!

Have a GREAT hike!

tuswm
04-17-2011, 17:06
Yea this will be our biggest hike, and I probably would NOT put this much planning in to it but we dont have much wiggle room for anything to go wrong wince we have to do big ish MPD to make it back in time for the a wedding. GF is maid of honor.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
04-17-2011, 20:50
HM, not sure where you bought your Neo Air but sounds like Cascade Designs or the outfitter where you possibly bought it should evenly exchange it for a new one! I would push forward with that exchange if you can!

well, maybe so I have a new one to put on ebay. I am not going to use it again. Valve did not fix it, as that is already replaced.

just because some have not had holes when absusing their pads doesn't mean you can't get them. I just don't care fenough or the comfort at night to bother with any inflatable any longer, unless they start making them out of kevlar :D

The only reason to use these things is the extra comfort. Well, if you can do without that, what's left other than potential problems?

one thing nice about foam is that even if you drop your pack into a stream, it'll float :)

Dogwood
04-17-2011, 21:59
Closed cell foam also burns. Great for starting campfires.

My Neo Air also doubles as a COMPACT LOW VOLUME internal virtual frame in my ULA Conduit and works OK as an impromptu surfboard. Can you say that?

Lighten up!

Hangman
04-18-2011, 13:35
well, maybe so I have a new one to put on ebay. I am not going to use it again. Valve did not fix it, as that is already replaced.

just because some have not had holes when absusing their pads doesn't mean you can't get them. I just don't care fenough or the comfort at night to bother with any inflatable any longer, unless they start making them out of kevlar :D

The only reason to use these things is the extra comfort. Well, if you can do without that, what's left other than potential problems?

one thing nice about foam is that even if you drop your pack into a stream, it'll float :)
How much for the neo air?

tuswm
04-20-2011, 08:02
At the attic sale I found two. One regular neo and one large neo trekker. When compressed, The neo trekker doesn't seam to pack up much larger or have MUCH of a weight penalty but but when inflated it does seam to be much more durable. Its also softer, has a nicer valve, doesnt hurt your eye, and is quiet not that I noticed any noise from the neo air. In the 72 X 20 size its 5 OZ for what looks like MASSIVELY more durability. But having said that It will only be used in my TT DR on a sil floor on a poly cro ground cloth.

Cliff notes: neo trekker > than neo air

tuswm
05-14-2011, 16:56
How many calories do you guys bring per day? I was thinking 6000 cal/ day for myself (175#) & GF (130#)

But now that I am looking at it, that looks like A LOT of food.

Dogwood
05-14-2011, 17:07
With regard to gear and the snow, it's still more than two months away from your SOBO Happy Isles start date. A LOT CAN HAPPEN IN THAT TIME! If you want to adequately and more accurately prepare for the trail conditions ON YOUR HIKE DO NOT MAKE FINAL KIT DECISIONS UNTIL closer to your go date AFTER YOU HAVE CHECKED ON THOSE trail conditions!

tuswm
05-14-2011, 18:30
I think I have all the non consumables I will need. We might switch out a CCF for in inflatable but that is it.

But Food seams like kinda a big project and I have this week off, After this week I will be BUSY up until the day I leave. I was hoping to get mail drops done in the next few days. So if ti doesn't fit I have time to come up with solutions.

Ulhiker
05-15-2011, 10:30
As far as food goes, most people try to plan for at least 100 calories per ounce of food. This is a good goal.
Also, most try to plan for 24 to 32 oz. of food per day, which works out to 2400-3200 calories per day.
With your plan of 6000 calories per day, and using the formula above, you'll be carrying 60 oz./3.75 lbs of food per day per person. With this amount of food and the fact that it is possible to pack 8-9 days (again, using the above formula) of food into a BV500, you will only be able to get 4-5 days of food in the BV500 using your 6000 calories/day scenario.
In other words, you are planning way too much food. Most people use Tuolumne Meadows, Red's Meadow, Vermillion Valley Ranch, and Muir Trail Ranch as their resupply options. By using these, with the exception of MTR, you are also able to pig out at the local cafes for extra calorie consumption. When you pick up your bucket at MTR, you can pack extra food for that night's consumption to again add calories.
While most people use MTR as their last resupply, it is possible to either hire a packing company to bring a resupply to you on the trail around Kearsarge Pass, or hike over Kearsarge Pass into Independence to resupply.
I have not done this option, so I do not know the particulars about this. I do, however, think that you honestly need to rethink your meal plans.

tuswm
05-15-2011, 16:57
well its 6000 cal/ 2 person = 3000 cal / person

we also have 2 bear cans

tuswm
05-15-2011, 17:00
most try to plan for 24 to 32 oz. of food per day, which works out to 2400-3200 calories per day..

Awesome that sounds about perfect. thanks.:banana

schnikel
05-15-2011, 20:15
Good advise Ulhiker. 100 CA per oz is what I am trying to hit.
Tuswm, I am in charge of packing for me and my wifefor this years thru hike of the JMT, and am going to dehydryate all our foods to help out in weight, packing size, as well as keeping calories and protein high. You can't loose this way IMHO. Just my 2 cents and makin' sure you know all the options.
Schnikel

Ulhiker
05-15-2011, 20:55
tuswm:
My apologies. I mis-read your post regarding the amount of food you were planning to take per person.
If you're planning on 3000 calories per person, then you're right where you want to try to be. If you are really strict as to what foods you take out of MTR, then you can get 8-9 days of food in a BV500. One trick is to keep the first day's food in a separate bag, so that it's not taking up space in your canister.

tuswm
05-16-2011, 00:52
Well I was hoping to pack a 5 gallon bucket with 8 days worth of food including some dehydrated veggies, a 2nd bear can, and other supplies like sunscreen. there is no way its all fitting. They did say you can use a larger bucket. anyone know where to get a 7- 10 gallon bucket?

Blissful
05-16-2011, 13:05
Lowes or Home Depot - ?

tuswm
05-16-2011, 16:04
I found this
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=46493&catid=752

lowes and Home Depot only had 5 gal. I had to pay 14 including shipping but that is way better than paying 55 to have them store a second bucket.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
05-17-2011, 00:26
did you ask if they accept larger buckets? the entire MTR operation is pretty streamlined and last summer there were hundreds of buckets, and all of them nicely racked in a building more or less made to hold 5 gallon buckets