View Full Version : Question for Scouters regarding YPT & Shelters
For scouters out there, regarding Youth Protection Guidelines.
What is your thoughts regarding YPT when you're sharing a shelter with non-scouters (i.e. other hikers not part of your group)?
I will be doing a section of the AT this weekend coming up on the CT/MA line with a total of 3 adults and 4 scouts. I believe the two places we plan to camp both have shelters. We expect rain and would like to use the shelters.
I expect since it's April with bad weather we won't see any thru-hikers or weekend warriors. It's likely we'll have the places to ourselves BUT we are prepared to tent as necessary.
Thoughts or comments welcome,
-Stephen
T92 - Weymouth, MA
Used to be an Antelope...
flemdawg1
04-18-2011, 14:27
Scout groups shouldn't sleep in shelters.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805511/k.A4B3/Groups_on_the_AT.htm
booney_1
04-18-2011, 14:31
I don't think this is even a gray area- You cannot share a shelter with any non-scouters.
It's a little questionable weather adults can share a shelter with youth. The guidelines discuss tents and single room facilities. I guess a shelter is a single room facility, in which case they prescribe putting a tarp or sheet between the adult and youth. On some of my trips we arranged sleeping so that the adults were next to their child or another adult. (of course not always possible), but we usually slept under tarps rather than use the shelter.
I'd advise, (if no other hikers there), let the kids sleep in the shelter, and the adults tent. The shelter would be available to hang out in during the rain.
long time scouter....
Our troop policy is to not use shelters. Just way too many issues to deal with, besides we view it as common courtesy for the other hikers. Scouts have a bad enough image problem on the trail, so we try to minimize out impact on other hikers.
I'd advise, (if no other hikers there), let the kids sleep in the shelter, and the adults tent. The shelter would be available to hang out in during the rain.
I wouldn't do that. How many times have you had a hiker show up late evening looking for a space in the shelter? If this happens, then you've got the potential for some random adult to sleep with the scouts. And would you turn them away if it was raining and there was still space in the shelter?
Totally agree with RevLee- as a Scouter and a Section-hiker, Scouts have a bad name on the trail. We may camp near a shelter with the scouts, but try to avoid interfering with thru-hikers or others on the trail. We have had some bad experiences with other Troops around shelters while sectioning. No reason to use a shelter (and especially not by leaders while the boys sleep in tents). Leave the shelters for others and "be prepared" to camp.
Buffalo Skipper
04-18-2011, 17:33
I am in complete agreement with everyone here. If you cannot guarantee that everyone at the shelter is YPT trained and registered, you should not be there. It should be fine to find a campsite nearby, but I also agree with "be prepared." There is little room for any contrary discussion.
I ALWAY keep scouts in tents.Save the shelters for thrus/section hikers.After all,they carry their tent all that way ,why not use it? After all , in a few years ,these scouts will be thru-hiking hiker trash that we all know and love!
Totally agree with RevLee- as a Scouter and a Section-hiker, Scouts have a bad name on the trail. We may camp near a shelter with the scouts, but try to avoid interfering with thru-hikers or others on the trail. We have had some bad experiences with other Troops around shelters while sectioning. No reason to use a shelter (and especially not by leaders while the boys sleep in tents). Leave the shelters for others and "be prepared" to camp.
According to YPG, adults cannot share the same sleeping quarters as youth. Makes no difference if they are trained or not.
Tenting is really the best way to go. If you only have 4 scouts, you can't guarantee they will have it to themselves.
njordan2
04-19-2011, 05:39
Scouts can stay in the shelters. It is not a problem. The shelters are not considered single room facilities or living quarters. No adults outside of who you brought have to be YPT trained.
Staying in tents is a good thing for scouts to do. But let them stay in the shelters also. It gives them a chance to be around others outside of their troop. Also, it is a chance for the scouts to help others out if they need. That is a good thing for scouts to do.
You will find that at shelters, nobody really cares who stays there. Only on internet forums do people complain, as they apparently hope they have the shelters all to themselves!
Toolshed
04-19-2011, 07:05
Scouts can stay in the shelters. It is not a problem. The shelters are not considered single room facilities or living quarters. No adults outside of who you brought have to be YPT trained.
Staying in tents is a good thing for scouts to do. But let them stay in the shelters also. It gives them a chance to be around others outside of their troop. Also, it is a chance for the scouts to help others out if they need. That is a good thing for scouts to do.
You will find that at shelters, nobody really cares who stays there. Only on internet forums do people complain, as they apparently hope they have the shelters all to themselves!
Nicely done.. Exactly my thoughts, but much more succinct!!!!:)
rpenczek
04-19-2011, 13:10
Long time SM who has had Boy Scouts on the AT twice in the past three years. We tent rather than using the shelters, but not for YPT reasons. Anyone exercising common sense can use a single room facility (without a tarp or sheet) for sleeping. The tarp or sheet is for changing - Sleep in "sleep cloths" and you can get up and change behind the shelter and the boys are really good at changing right in their bags.
We do not stay in shelters becuase sometimes boys will be boys (they are learning manners but have not profected them) and that does not alway mesh well with adults trying to sleep, etc... Also, I can't police the random acts of adults (those smoking mother nature, etc...).
Finally, there is no sense in sleeping with the mice if you don't have to.
Shelters are a great place to get out of the rain while having lunch or have a talk with other non-Scouter hikers, but we will take our tents for sleeping.
Lion King
04-19-2011, 15:04
Scouts should be out in the woods for sure.
But as someone who has experianced first hand the good and bad scouts, as well as some rotten leaders, Scouts should know NOT to stay in shelters.
Especially during peak Thru season.
Its a consideration, if you have a large group, bring a large group tent, or a large tarp or lots of small ones and be considerate enough if your group is staying near a shelter not to keep people up all night with loud screaming and running around the site, it has and will happen.
If your group rises super early, do not disturb others in the shelter or in tents, this too happens a lot.
Not to be against them, since I have seen scout groups give hikers food, or ask them to join them in their large diners, and that is super nice, so thanks, but you as a leader have a responsibility to know that large groups are not supposed to take over the shelters.
Hang out at them sure, meet others and have them interact with hkers, but even maybe consider moving a half mile away (More for groups of like 12+) so when you have your fire/discussions it isnt as big an impact on individuals who come to the woods for peace.
and for GODS SAKE scout leaders (Again not the OP per say) get your kids to clean up after themselves at campsites and shelters. Please.
C Seeker
04-19-2011, 20:40
AA, The worderful question all us scouters as ourself (does that follow YPP?) If you have a clear set line in the shelter for the youth and the adults, and when everyone gets to bed and they have privacy it should be good. Or at least I never ran into a problem.
I have seen where the adults let the kids stay in the shelter while they stay in there tents. But please beaware (as others have said) the shelters are for long distance small group hikers. If there is no hikers on the trail anywhere in site (as if it wasn't thru hiking season) then use the shelter on a rainy night. But if someone does come please have them be respectful. ( not staying up and shouting all hours of the night, and sharing the space.)
Thanks For getting the scouts out!
C Seeker (Venture Crew 247)
Lone Wolf
04-19-2011, 21:11
Scouts should be out in the woods for sure.
But as someone who has experianced first hand the good and bad scouts, as well as some rotten leaders, Scouts should know NOT to stay in shelters.
Especially during peak Thru season.
Its a consideration, if you have a large group, bring a large group tent, or a large tarp or lots of small ones and be considerate enough if your group is staying near a shelter not to keep people up all night with loud screaming and running around the site, it has and will happen.
If your group rises super early, do not disturb others in the shelter or in tents, this too happens a lot.
Not to be against them, since I have seen scout groups give hikers food, or ask them to join them in their large diners, and that is super nice, so thanks, but you as a leader have a responsibility to know that large groups are not supposed to take over the shelters.
Hang out at them sure, meet others and have them interact with hkers, but even maybe consider moving a half mile away (More for groups of like 12+) so when you have your fire/discussions it isnt as big an impact on individuals who come to the woods for peace.
and for GODS SAKE scout leaders (Again not the OP per say) get your kids to clean up after themselves at campsites and shelters. Please.
"peak THRU season"? thruhiker wannabes should NOT stay in shelters. leave them for the folks not choosing to spend six months on vacation walking. right now there's 30 "thrus" in damascus. tomorrow the next shelter will be packed with them. they are a "group" of ten or more in my book. not cool
skinewmexico
04-19-2011, 23:00
I'm a little baffled by the point of having boys in the shelter while adults are in tents. What are they learning? I don't think the wussification of the modern Boy Scout needs any moe help.
Joker4ink
04-19-2011, 23:16
I expect since it's April with bad weather we won't see any thru-hikers or weekend warriors. It's likely we'll have the places to ourselves BUT we are prepared to tent as necessary.
I wouldn't necessarily count on not seeing anyone out using this weekend. In fact you may see me on the trail this weekend. Good luck with whatever you decide.
C Seeker
04-20-2011, 07:28
I'm a little baffled by the point of having boys in the shelter while adults are in tents. What are they learning? I don't think the wussification of the modern Boy Scout needs any moe help.
With the modern Boy Scout laws it is hard to have the leaders near the scouts at night tent camping or hammock camping. Mainly because they have to be seperated with a clear divider. On the trail there isn't huge camping site but small ones where it only fits 3 tents pretty tightly (or the ones I have seen) So the leaders normally go into the next closest camp site. So the leaders normally teach/inform the scouts before bed, then when it becomes night the scouts are able to get the leaders if there is a problem.
Just as an FYI- we took a group of 10 out near McAfee Knob last week. We camped near a shelter one night, and despite some challenging tent sites neither scouts nor adults used the shelter. We spent time talking to the Scouts about the view of Scouting by most thru-hikers, and we why we would do everything we could to be good neighbors to LD hikers (not being loud, not trashing anything, ever, etc.). I had a bad experience last year on my "half hike" near Mau-Pen and I don't want to be part of giving Scouts a bad name. Anyway- a thru-hiker came in at dusk, and although he decided to push on another mile to the next shelter, expressed his appreciation for the Scouts leaving the shelter for him. That was the best lesson I could have asked for.
Monkeywrench
04-27-2011, 14:06
I'm a bit surprised at the animosity towards Scouts. I love seeing Scouts out on the trail. Some of them are going to be the next generation of people working for wild nature.
I got my own introduction to hiking from the Scouts, and what an enhancement to my life that has proven to be!
I had neglected to follow up this thread with a thank you note. Lots of interesting points and information, I don't agree with all but many points I do and appreciate them all.
I think for us we will plan to tent only, use the shelter and cooking areas as needed for camp tasks and socializing. And use the location as an opportunity to teach about proper backwoods manners.
If we only tent, scouts in their tents pairs if possible, then YPT is easily followed and there are no grey areas that would cause concern. Safety is the primary concern followed closely by being respectful in our outdoor manners.
I should share a story about our groups behavior on the trail. During one of our shakedown hikes (early April) we were given the opportunity to use a lake side site that was not normally given out to groups. It was right on the lake and was right up against the water. An amazing site especially with the weather and sunset we witnessed. Why were were allowed? I believe it had to do with 2 things, first it was at the same camp we had spent the night before and we demonstrated we were low impact and took care of our site. Second, I believe the caretaker was impressed with the boys behavior and courtesy they showed to everyone they came into contact with. We made sure that we pointed this out to them that they had by observing both the Outdoor Code & LNT had been gifted with a really nice location in which to finish up their weekend hiking. :)
Thanks again for all the inputs.
-Stephen
T92 - Weymouth, MA
Used to be an Antelope...
58starter
08-18-2011, 13:29
Almost everytime I do a section hike, somewhere along the hike a group of scouts have set up in the shelter. I usually always tent camp or hammock, but it is nice to use the shelter to cook and dry out gear which is not possible with 8-10 scouts in it. I agree scouts should not use the shelters sleep.
I have also see several groups of scouts hiking and camping on the AT and are very well behaved. Thanks to those leaders.