View Full Version : Proper Footwear Fitting
The Old Boot
05-09-2011, 12:05
How does one recognize when someone is knowledgeable in fitting shoes -what should I be looking for?
I have several small outfitters within a hundred mile radius, each of them with various manufacturers trailrunners, hiking boots etc.
I don't think I've been 'fitted' for a pair of shoes since I was 5, I've always 'self-fitted'.
Like most, I've already got a couple of pairs of hiking footwear that I now realize just won't work for any amount of long mile hiking, but they're all stuff I just chose off the rack - I want to try to get it right the first time.
Advice please!
LoneRidgeRunner
05-09-2011, 12:17
How does one recognize when someone is knowledgeable in fitting shoes -what should I be looking for?
I have several small outfitters within a hundred mile radius, each of them with various manufacturers trailrunners, hiking boots etc.
I don't think I've been 'fitted' for a pair of shoes since I was 5, I've always 'self-fitted'.
Like most, I've already got a couple of pairs of hiking footwear that I now realize just won't work for any amount of long mile hiking, but they're all stuff I just chose off the rack - I want to try to get it right the first time.
Advice please!
I always fit myself. Do it in the evening because your feet will swell some during the day and wear the socks you'll be wearing on the trail. Walk around in them in the store for a while and hope for the best..
Rocket Jones
05-09-2011, 14:43
I called the outfitter and asked for the manager, then asked if they had someone trained to do the "Oren Fit Method". They didn't, but the manager knew what it was about and gave me the name of his best shoe fitter.
Before that, I wasted quite a bit of time with clerks who meant well but really didn't know what they were doing. I couldn't tell you how many times I heard, "Oh, we're *all* trained to fit boots and shoes."
Uh-huh.
The Old Boot
05-10-2011, 08:25
I called the outfitter and asked for the manager, then asked if they had someone trained to do the "Oren Fit Method". They didn't, but the manager knew what it was about and gave me the name of his best shoe fitter.
Before that, I wasted quite a bit of time with clerks who meant well but really didn't know what they were doing. I couldn't tell you how many times I heard, "Oh, we're *all* trained to fit boots and shoes."
Uh-huh.
Thanks ever so much - I did some reading on his fitting method and it's at least given me a head start on finding someone who actually might know what they're doing!
Now, all I have to do is to find THAT someone!
How does one recognize when someone is knowledgeable in fitting shoes -what should I be looking for?
......
I had to chuckle when I read the OP and flashed back to a visit I made to an (un-named) outfitter in New England during my thru hike. I needed new boots and asked the salesman for a pair of boots in my size. I was surprised when he rudely informed me I had to be properly "fitted" by him before he would fetch the pair. Yeah right.....
I sorta looked at him, grinned, and said "Listen, I've hiked over 2000 miles to get here so I think I know a little something about what boots I want and what size I need. Now is my money good here or what?"
I got the new boots without any further salesman BS.
The Old Boot
05-10-2011, 17:13
I had to chuckle when I read the OP and flashed back to a visit I made to an (un-named) outfitter in New England during my thru hike. I needed new boots and asked the salesman for a pair of boots in my size. I was surprised when he rudely informed me I had to be properly "fitted" by him before he would fetch the pair. Yeah right.....
I sorta looked at him, grinned, and said "Listen, I've hiked over 2000 miles to get here so I think I know a little something about what boots I want and what size I need. Now is my money good here or what?"
I got the new boots without any further salesman BS.
That works just fine if you already know what brand and size works for you...I've not done the 2,000 miles yet!
All I know is that the two pairs I've chosen so far 'off the rack' aren't going to cut it for miles and miles no matter what socks I put under them.
I'd rather get fitted properly and only have to do it once rather than continue to buy randomly and do some finger crossing and hoping. I have a long, long list of 'wannabuys' that I'd rather put my money into.
All righty then.
3 things to consider- Comfort, heel movement, room for your toes.
There's no magic, you'll end up going back to the outfitter's in your area, bring the socks/liners you expect to wear, and start trying on their selections. You really do end up "fitting yourself" since sizing varies so much between brands. Good outfitters will have an incline (or slant) board for you to walk up and down on. You want to check for excessive heel movement (up) and ample toe room (down). Sole inserts can be used to volume fit the boot/shoe you like and provide extra support.
Variables like how much your pack weighs, your arch, and ankle strength may determine going with a traditional style ankle high boot like the Keen Targhee II or a trail runner type shoe like the Soloman XA Pro 3D Ultra GTX
Google "Hiking Boot Fit" and you'll find a bunch of stuff.
The Phil Oren Fit System is explained HERE (http://books.google.com/books?id=v37i_3XHgpYC&pg=PT56&lpg=PT56&dq=phil+oren+fit+method&source=bl&ots=0FjGLYvClP&sig=r9X-cRjdkC3-muOfTUf1lvIe-p8&hl=en&ei=QrjJTYCvE8rZ0QGq3ZznBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=phil%20oren%20fit%20method&f=false) (actually begins on page 45) in "The Backpackers Handbook, 3rd Edition" which is 7 years old. Ancient history to me.
Good luck.
Rocket Jones
05-10-2011, 19:48
Yep, the odds of finding someone who's been trained with the Oren system are long, but someone who's been fitting boots for a while has as least heard of it. That helps weed out the ones who've been working shoes for only a summer or two.
If you are going to the same boot then no problem but going to an different manufacture the I always first try them on first.
John
happybecca
08-13-2011, 20:04
Very long but thorough fitting process explained right here!!
I work at Rock/Creek Outfitters in Chattanooga, TN and very knowledgeable about boot fitting. In fact, we get written up if someone comes to try on a boot and we do not fit them using "fit cards"
The first question we ask is what they will be using it for. Light hiking, backpacking, cold weather, etc and the level of their experience. Based on their answer, we then determine if the customer needs a high boot, mid, or low hiking shoe...or trail runner. We then give them a brief explanation on wool socks and give them a pair to try the boots on with. Very important.
Before we put the socks on, we self assess the foot's volume. This is helpful because we know some of the boots have large volume and some have a little less.
The next step is to set the person on our bench and sit across from them on a special stool that has two pins on it to hold the measuring tool. We line the knee up with the shoulder and bend the knee to a 90 degree angle and place the foot in the measuring device, WITH the sock on. This is the unweighted measurement. We size each foot, getting length measurements, heel-ball measurements, and width.
The ball of the foot is measured using the vertical slider on the measuring device. The fitter is supposed to feel for the notch that connects the big toe to the rest of the foot. Sometimes it is hard to find so we instruct them to raise the big toe. Not to be confused with the bone itself, it is actually a ligament we are feeling for.
Then we put two measuring tools together, shoulder width apart, and tell the customer to then stand on both of them. Getting the weighted measurements of length, heel-ball, and width.
The next step is doing math to figure out the difference in each of the numbers. The average person's foot length increases about half a size when they put weight on the foot. Same with heel-ball measurement. If the customer's foot length is a 9 and the heel ball length measures at an 11, this lets us know that they have short toes and might fit best in a 10 or 10.5, because the ball of their foot hits farther up the boot. If you try to fit them in a 9.5, you might find that the ball is hitting an uncomfortable spot on the shoe, which will cause friction and blisters. Another reason for finding the heel-ball measurement is finding how much of an arch they have. A "flat-footed" person's ball measurement is likely to stay the same when weighted. Someone with high arches or a heavy pronator is likely to add .5 to up to 3 sizes when weighted! One of my coworker's has a right ball that extends half a size and a left ball that extends 3 sizes.
This is when we educate the customer about superfeet. We recommend them to everyone because they give support that all hikers need. If you take the inserts out of your boot right now you will see the lousy excuse for an insert that is included. The manufacturers are not concerned with your physiology, just the foot itself, protecting it from the elements. You might consider custom orthotics (superfeet custom) if your arch extends over 1 size. This is a red flag for plantar fascitis.
The size of the boot is determined by the 3 factors measured on the tool. The weighted foot length gives us a starting point. A size 9 usually requires a boot that is at least size 9.5. Then we just go from there, giving our expert opinion on which shoes are suitable for volume and width. We bring out at least 3 different pairs and put superfeet in each pair, then lace the boot up snug and take the customer to the incline board.
The incline board. Ahhh my favorite. So you take a few steps up the board and stand on the hill. Then we squeeze the heel with our palm and make sure it is snug in place. Then we feel the rest of the boot and make sure there is no extra room. If there is, you tighten the laces and go back on the board. Loose boots equal blisters. If the boot is squeezing the foot in an area or extending off the sole, then we try a wider boot. If it is just one spot that has pressure due to a bunion but everything else fits great, we are able to stretch the shoe on that spot upon purchase if it is leather.
Then we instruct the customer to turn around, stomp 3 times and stand downhill at the bottom of the incline board. Then ask the simple question "are your toes touching the end?" If so, we check the lacing again. Then go back on the board. If it still touches, we get a bigger shoe.
The boot fitting process lasts at least 20 minutes and should last longer with the fitter explaining anatomy of the foot, etc. They should be there offering guidance on lacing techniques, volume techniques, benefits and features of each boot. I highly recommend the custom superfeet because they basically cured my plantar fascitis. This also takes 30 minutes. Try on as many boots as possible in your category and find the one that fits you best that you are confident you can put hundreds of miles on if need be. Boots, like a car, are a big investment and your feet can take you places cars can't!
It didn't take me long to learn how to do this and honestly. I've been in the industry less than a year but my level of care for the customers exceeds my leisure time at work. Most places just dont take the time because they are lazy. Insist that they do it right or don't do it at all. Also, I never try to sell anything. If we don't have a boot that will work for someone, I will point them in the direction of a place that does. Often times I recommend Zappos due to their free return policy. They are more than welcome to do the fit test with me after buying a different boot elsewhere.
Common misconceptions about boots are that one brand's sizings are all the same. Not true. Each boot by a manufacturer has a completely different fit.
Common misconceptions about feet are that a flat footed person doesn't have an arch and doesn't need arch support. Not true either. Everyone has an arch and everyone benefits from arch support. It may take getting used to, but having something there regardless of the size of the arch greatly reduces foot fatigue.
Feel free to ask me any questions or come visit me for a fitting :)
stars in her eyes
08-13-2011, 21:02
Very long but thorough fitting process explained right here!!
:)
Wow. Very tempted to drive up your way in October when I visit relatives in Georgia. That was a great post.
Very long but thorough fitting process explained right here!!
Wow, if I'm ever in Chattanooga, can I buy you a beer?
The Old Boot
08-14-2011, 08:22
Thank you, thank you, from the bottom of my feet!!
Since I started this thread way back in May, I've been waylaid by a heavy work schedule and a bout of bronchitis that laid me flat for 3 weeks so no boots bought yet!
I'm a border crossing and a two day drive from Chattanooga and am still tempted to come there for fitting! Most of everything I want to buy for hiking is having to come in from the US anyways, I might just have to book a vacation for a shopping trip instead of going hiking!
I've copied out your instructions so I have them in hard copy form. Next step is to try to find someone here who knows what they're doing.
Maybe your post should be saved in the article section!
Thank you!!
Happy Becca, I think you are the one who fitted me for my Montrails a few months back. You did a really good job also. I have worn them everyday, with the green super feet in them and they are still spot on. Folks, if you get the chance, Rock Creek has two stores in Chattanooga and Becca could be at either. I first met her at the Hamilton Place Store, then a week later she was at the North River Store.
Spokes, if you met her, you would want to buy her a beer, she is a real cutie.
Thanks Becca, for knowing what you were doing and glad to see you posting here at WB.
Jim Henegar
happybecca
08-14-2011, 10:57
Aww thanks you guys. I am sincerely flattered. I am currently planning my 2012 thru hike in March and I'm really happy to be part of this community. :sun
I must say that there are a handful of terrific fitters at Rock/Creek. I learned from Josh Legg, he'll be happy to know I'm spreadin' the love. We have a lot of really great staff and spend a lot of time training in product knowledge and customer service. I work with some of the most amazing and inspiring people. If you ever get a chance to swing into Outside magazine's best town in America, please stop in and tell us about your journeys.
And of course you can buy me a beer! :D
happybecca
08-14-2011, 10:58
And Jim, I am pretty sure I remember you! Glad you're enjoying the boots and thanks for the compliment!
theoilman
08-14-2011, 14:34
Happybecca, great write up! When I bought my boots I got a referral to a local outfitter, with who to see. He spent 45 minutes or longer with me, did much of the same that you describe. I bought boots and 3 pair of smartwool socks (I need boots with good ankle support - too many twists and sprains over the years.) My first section, NO BLISTERS or any foot problems!
You didn't cover break-in. With mine he told me to wear them around the house a few days, if they don't feel perfect bring them back. Then start walking in the neighborhood a mile or so a day, and increase to 5 miles - over a month to 6 weeks before hitting the trail. (This wasn't training, just boot break-in.)
HeartFire
08-14-2011, 20:45
They can measure your foot 6 ways to tomorrow - you still have to put your foot in the boot and walk around in it. Do YOU like high tops or low tops - the "fitters" opinion doesn't matter - they may want to put you in their most expensive shoe because that's how they make money. Someone else said - go at the end of the day when you've been on your feet all day, bring a pack with 30 lbs or so it - this really makes a difference on how a shoe feels.
I went through this whole 'boot fitting stuff' (with cards and all) - I left with a pair of boots that I hiked the next 100 miles in - at the end of that 100 miles I could hardly walk. That was the last time I listened to anyone about what shoes to buy - oh, and another outfitter told me that the reason I was having so much trouble was because I had my shoes laced wrong - give me a break!
kyhiker610
08-14-2011, 21:48
If you are going to the same boot then no problem but going to an different manufacture the I always first try them on first.
As someone who has worked in an outdoors store for a while, i disagree. Quality control sucks a lot of times, and things slip through the cracks. Try on every pair, every time. BOTH feet.
Very long but thorough fitting process explained right here!!
I work at Rock/Creek Outfitters in Chattanooga, TN and very knowledgeable about boot fitting. In fact, we get written up if someone comes to try on a boot and we do not fit them using "fit cards"
The first question we ask is what they will be using it for. Light hiking, backpacking, cold weather, etc and the level of their experience. Based on their answer, we then determine if the customer needs a high boot, mid, or low hiking shoe...or trail runner. We then give them a brief explanation on wool socks and give them a pair to try the boots on with. Very important.
Before we put the socks on, we self assess the foot's volume. This is helpful because we know some of the boots have large volume and some have a little less.
The next step is to set the person on our bench and sit across from them on a special stool that has two pins on it to hold the measuring tool. We line the knee up with the shoulder and bend the knee to a 90 degree angle and place the foot in the measuring device, WITH the sock on. This is the unweighted measurement. We size each foot, getting length measurements, heel-ball measurements, and width.
The ball of the foot is measured using the vertical slider on the measuring device. The fitter is supposed to feel for the notch that connects the big toe to the rest of the foot. Sometimes it is hard to find so we instruct them to raise the big toe. Not to be confused with the bone itself, it is actually a ligament we are feeling for.
Then we put two measuring tools together, shoulder width apart, and tell the customer to then stand on both of them. Getting the weighted measurements of length, heel-ball, and width.
The next step is doing math to figure out the difference in each of the numbers. The average person's foot length increases about half a size when they put weight on the foot. Same with heel-ball measurement. If the customer's foot length is a 9 and the heel ball length measures at an 11, this lets us know that they have short toes and might fit best in a 10 or 10.5, because the ball of their foot hits farther up the boot. If you try to fit them in a 9.5, you might find that the ball is hitting an uncomfortable spot on the shoe, which will cause friction and blisters. Another reason for finding the heel-ball measurement is finding how much of an arch they have. A "flat-footed" person's ball measurement is likely to stay the same when weighted. Someone with high arches or a heavy pronator is likely to add .5 to up to 3 sizes when weighted! One of my coworker's has a right ball that extends half a size and a left ball that extends 3 sizes.
This is when we educate the customer about superfeet. We recommend them to everyone because they give support that all hikers need. If you take the inserts out of your boot right now you will see the lousy excuse for an insert that is included. The manufacturers are not concerned with your physiology, just the foot itself, protecting it from the elements. You might consider custom orthotics (superfeet custom) if your arch extends over 1 size. This is a red flag for plantar fascitis.
The size of the boot is determined by the 3 factors measured on the tool. The weighted foot length gives us a starting point. A size 9 usually requires a boot that is at least size 9.5. Then we just go from there, giving our expert opinion on which shoes are suitable for volume and width. We bring out at least 3 different pairs and put superfeet in each pair, then lace the boot up snug and take the customer to the incline board.
The incline board. Ahhh my favorite. So you take a few steps up the board and stand on the hill. Then we squeeze the heel with our palm and make sure it is snug in place. Then we feel the rest of the boot and make sure there is no extra room. If there is, you tighten the laces and go back on the board. Loose boots equal blisters. If the boot is squeezing the foot in an area or extending off the sole, then we try a wider boot. If it is just one spot that has pressure due to a bunion but everything else fits great, we are able to stretch the shoe on that spot upon purchase if it is leather.
Then we instruct the customer to turn around, stomp 3 times and stand downhill at the bottom of the incline board. Then ask the simple question "are your toes touching the end?" If so, we check the lacing again. Then go back on the board. If it still touches, we get a bigger shoe.
The boot fitting process lasts at least 20 minutes and should last longer with the fitter explaining anatomy of the foot, etc. They should be there offering guidance on lacing techniques, volume techniques, benefits and features of each boot. I highly recommend the custom superfeet because they basically cured my plantar fascitis. This also takes 30 minutes. Try on as many boots as possible in your category and find the one that fits you best that you are confident you can put hundreds of miles on if need be. Boots, like a car, are a big investment and your feet can take you places cars can't!
It didn't take me long to learn how to do this and honestly. I've been in the industry less than a year but my level of care for the customers exceeds my leisure time at work. Most places just dont take the time because they are lazy. Insist that they do it right or don't do it at all. Also, I never try to sell anything. If we don't have a boot that will work for someone, I will point them in the direction of a place that does. Often times I recommend Zappos due to their free return policy. They are more than welcome to do the fit test with me after buying a different boot elsewhere.
Common misconceptions about boots are that one brand's sizings are all the same. Not true. Each boot by a manufacturer has a completely different fit.
Common misconceptions about feet are that a flat footed person doesn't have an arch and doesn't need arch support. Not true either. Everyone has an arch and everyone benefits from arch support. It may take getting used to, but having something there regardless of the size of the arch greatly reduces foot fatigue.
Feel free to ask me any questions or come visit me for a fitting :)
OMG... Will you marry me???
the right foot+ the right sock+ the right insole+the right shoe= the right fit (the foot guru) happybecca is right there is no fit the same and no foot the same there is a lot that goes it to it call an outfitter that has guru on staff we are trained in this and there are differents knots that can be used to stop heal lift and foot slide do you have a good outfitter where you live?
In addition to all the great stuff becca said...
A 'professional' running team in the area I used to live in owned a few small running stores--they're about as knowledgeable as it comes with shoe fitting. Your stride is just as important as the shape of your foot--if they look at well-worn shoes that you run/walk in, they'll be able to learn something about your stride. If you don't have access to a knowledgeable running store, Google 'wet foot test'
I've also found that the size/shape of my feet change a lot once I get going on a hike (swelling), especially if it's hot.