I need honest feedback PLEASE!

[SGT Rock]

I need some honest feedback here. If I am off on it please tell me.

OK, as ya'll probably know I have been playing with stoves for years. Alcohol stoves have fascinated me and I have been trying to make them as fuel efficient as possible while maintaining consistent performance. The goal of mine is to make a stove with stand that would weight 0.3 ounces or less and boil a pint of water with 0.5 ounces of fuel. This would finally make an alcohol stove that was as weight efficient as a Esbit stove, and the benefit to the hiker would be that it would have an easy to find fuel source that was also very cheap.

Well I think I may have done it. The burner is made from aluminum cans and the stand will be made from sheet Titanium (the current prototypes use aluminum sheet). Even though titanium is a resilient metal, care would still need to be taken with the stove to ensure its serviceability on the trail. With proper use and care, the Ion stove should last for as long as you do. No moving parts and nothing to break. And, the stand could double as an Esbit stove if you wanted it to do so.

ION Stove – Alcohol fuel stove.
Weight: 0.3 ounces (10 grams)
Height: 1.5” (3.81 cm) tall with stand Diameter: 3” 7.62 cm) with stand
Parts: Burner, Stand Bottom, and Stand Top.
Performance: To boil one pint of water @ 212.4° F (100° C) for at least 60 seconds…
Air Temperature:.................Fuel required:.....................Time to Boil:
60° F (16° C) or above…….0.41 fluid ounces (12ml)….............…~6:30
30° F to 59° F……………….…0.51 fluid ounces (15ml)…….............~8:30
Below 30°F…………………….…0.61 fluid ounces (18ml)……............~10:00
**Note: these statistics assume you are using a windscreen and reflector**

Oh, and the patent process is just getting started, maybe…

So looking at just retail part suppliers, I can build the stoves in my spare time with the right tools and probably crank out 100 or so in a weekend, I could make them at the house and probably could sell them at about $18 plus shipping. The initial outlay to me in just supplies would be about $500 to get the parts, most of that is for titanium.

This stove is not designed for groups or heavy cooking, its intended use is for a solo ultralight hiker that only needs to boil water and do some simple cooking. Of course the Ion is so light, than a group of hikers could each carry their own stove…

But before I go and spend $300+ on a patent and order $300+ in titanium to make them, I want to make sure I am not throwing money away here. How big a market is there out there? Remember this is a solo stove for boiling water and light cooking, this isn’t your MSR Whisperlight.

1. Not interested in something like this, I need more from a stove.

2. I am interested somewhat, but would want to see one first.

3. I am very interested but still not completely sure.

4. I want one now, I already wanted one yesterday.

5. Completely undecided.

6. Other, please comment…

[bitpusher]

I voted other, not because it's a bad idea, but because I'm not a rabid ultralighter. I don't know what the weight savings is over the alcohol stoves that I've made myself, but the cost involved is more than I want to pay just to shave off less than an ounce per boil. But I imagine there are some people who would be interested.

[SGT Rock]

Thanks Bitpusher, that is the sort of feedback I need.Be brutal ya'll.

BTW, if I included in the advertisement comparison charts that included the Esbit wing stove, the Jetboil, The Trangia Westwind, and a homemade can stove, would that be a factor? Imagine that I could show that over a week hiking you could carry an average of 2 ounces less than if you had a homemade pepsi can stove (that number off the top of my head BTW, not a real comparison) would that help you to decide?

[ToeJam]

Sounds like an interesting concept, but there are always two of us, and sometimes, although not alot, we do more than just boil water.

So it would not be for me personally, but I think it could well fill the niche for those solo UL's...

PS comparisons are always good to see in black and white I think - but wow 2 ounces over a course of a week? I knew I was far and always will be far form an ultra-lighter but thats just insane (not in a bad way but a different way lol!)<-- whoops maybe you just edited that as I replied that the 2 oz was a real number lol! Anyhoo yes I think a side by side comparison wold help alot of ppl SEE the difference!

[rpettit]

I appreciate the info available on your website. I used the soda can stove design, I'm with the previous replies. Not worth the weight reduction but I'm not an ultralighter.

[The Will]

I'm interested. I've been very tentative on my switch from white gas to alcohol based on challenges I've had achieving what I perceive would be maximum efficiency from from alcohol stove creations. And if your evolutionary process is that many more steps ahead of mine than I would certainly not consider $18 an unreasonable investment.

[steve hiker]

I'm definitely interested in making one. I would have made one already but I found it difficult to follow the drawings on your website. I believe this stove uses insulation, right?

If I had a good set of instructions I'd make one but wouldn't buy one, as I already have a couple of good pepsi can stoves.

A comparison chart to pepsi and esbit stoves would help. My pepsi stove boils water faster than the ion stove in your chart. At least, the one I've named Rip N Run that has steel wool between the inner and outer wall. Draws the alcohol up and gets to it fast!

But if I wasn't inclined to make my own stoves, the Ion would be my first choice. Smart move to patent it.

[Lugnut]

Not sure you could even patent your stove. Guess you could register a name, like esbit does, but anyone can make a solid tab fuel stove nevertheless. Hope I'm wrong because as much work as I've seen you put into your stove experiments you deserve any reward you can get. I use a home built, esbit stove on the rare occasions, but I'd buy one of your to compare. I might switch. :)

[SGT Rock]

The newest one doesn't use insulation. Also, this isn't going to be a fast stove, the goal has been weight efficiency. It isn't slow either, at least not as slow as some of my older prototypes that could take 15 minutes to boil.

[wacocelt]

I'm interested Top! I've been using alcohol burning soda stoves since 2000 and am always happy to see lighter more efficient alternatives.

[Grimace]

If your initial investment is $600 then you have to sell 34 stoves at $18 to break even. That seems doable. I don't think it is going to make you rich though. An extra $2 is no big deal so I guess you only need to sell 31 at $20 a pop. I douby you'd lose money, but is it worth the time?

How about selling detailed directions instead of the stove itself. Check with a lawyer, but you may be able to put some legal jargon in there about using it for personal profit. Kind of like buying an album.

Personally, I'd pay for directions and make one if you could prove it to me before hand. Hell, what's $5 for directions.

[The Solemates]

Rock:

This is quite a coincidence because I just made the current design of your Ion stove that you have on your website this past week. I know that may be an older design, but its all I have to compare to, and you asked, so here ya go...

I made the stove EXACTLY as you laid out in your instructions. I also had Roy's instructions on a windscreen handy just in case. The stove I made, including 2 Wal-Mart brand ginger ale can bottoms, 2 1.75" non-skid jumbo paper clips, 1 piece of 6 x 1/2" insulation, 1 hardware cloth wire support (which I made a little bit wider and placed it just on the outside of the stove, rather than the inside in your design. this accomodated my 1400mL pot better), 1 Al reflective base, and 1 Al 3 x 22" windscreen, weighed in at 1.4 ounces. I then took it outside to test. Environmental conditions were 40 degrees F (exactly) and 0-10mph winds intermittently. I placed exactly 2 cups in my titanium pot, covered it with the lid and started the stove. I timed it with a stopwatch and it took over 12:00 to boil, and even then it was not a rolling boil. I was a little disappointed, as from your website I was expecting to see a boil time in the range of 5-8 minutes. Additionally, with the somewhat unstable pot support, I was afraid that my pot was going to topple over during some of the 10mph gusts. I imagine that in real on-trail conditions when even "calm" winds can be 20-30mph, it would topple.

In conclusion, I was not that impressed with Ion stove, but with further design changes and "flawless" construction by a "professional" maybe it will be better. Furthermore, I tend to hike year-round, in temperatures from below 0F to 100F. After much testing, I still am not convinced that an alcohol stove would work very well (if at all) in cold conditions. However, I would like to try again in the summer when the time comes. But for now I will stick with my Simmerlite. (Although I would like to try the JetBoil as well, but cant see the necessity of spending $80 when I already have a stove that works fine).

Its supposed to rain all weekend, so if it does Im going to give the tuna can stove a try and compare it.

Just my thoughts...

[chris]

While the specs look great, alot of people simply make their own stoves, even if they are not the most efficient in the world. My stupid, cut-off beer can works fine, even if it is less efficient than the Ion. I can also replace it if I happen to step on it: Just buy some beer.

However, there are, I suspect, a lot of people who would want to buy such a stove. I read over your website a lot, and found it very useful, when trying to build my first stove.

So, while I wouldn't buy one, I think others would, particularly if you made visits to various hiker Gatherings, and managed to get the stoves into some of the early outfitters, like Neels Gap, Hot Springs, Damascus. And, possibly in some of the hostels, like Standing Bear, those in Erwin, and Kincora.

[Spirit Walker]

No, I wouldn't buy one for two reasons - I cook for two, usually Liptons, and the boil times are too long. I like the fuel savings, as I think the stove we use now uses too much fuel per meal, but 10 minutes to boil a pint of water is too long.

[PKH]

Well it looks like a fine little stove. But I already have a superb alcohol burner, made by Brasslite. I got it after reading an excellent review posted by a moderately famous backpacker, who described the stove as "a work of functional art". Recognize the quote Sarge?

Seriously - at this point for me the major weight loss battles have been won, and shaving another two ounces off is not vital.

cheers,

PKH

[dje97001]

I am all for the capitalist, entrepreneurial, innovative endeavors... I once bought a gallon jug of water for over $2 because I really liked the design of the bottle (it had a purplish-translucent hue that made the water look really refreshing). That said, I'm way too much of a novice to make my own coke-can stove (or at least I think I am) and ultimately, you would need a serious chart in the ad (like you suggested) to convince me to spend $18 on a stove. Showing: SRPs of the ION and competitors (in similar price ranges when available--including the standard pepsi can stove), Fuel efficiency (with a fuel-calculator like you find on most car sites trying to sell hybrids ).

Also, the marketing and selling of products by yourself can be quite an undertaking--would someone like antigravity gear (who already has that infrastructure in place for taking orders and advertising--you could of course choose to sell it on your website too, but you probably need a bigger base than each website individually) be interested in selling them (for a slight commission)? Those people might have a good idea on how much they could sell them for...?

Lastly--and I don't know if any of this has been even slightly useful so far, but one more thought--people generally look at fuel use/weight efficiency, and overall cost and functionality, but like the purple bottle of water, the [i]appearance of the stove is terribly important to many. Offer custom painting (like flames on the sides!!:banana), the more "homemade look" for those who either don't care about paint/style or are trying to make someone believe that they actually made it themselves?!, camouflage (for L.Wolf or yourself), maybe names of universities, states, towns, trail names? People will agree to slightly higher prices if they think that something has been custom made for them (give them some options).

Just a couple of thoughts. I really like the paint job idea though.

[SGT Rock]

I made the stove EXACTLY as you laid out in your instructions. I also had Roy's instructions on a windscreen handy just in case. The stove I made, including 2 Wal-Mart brand ginger ale can bottoms, 2 1.75" non-skid jumbo paper clips, 1 piece of 6 x 1/2" insulation, 1 hardware cloth wire support (which I made a little bit wider and placed it just on the outside of the stove, rather than the inside in your design. this accomodated my 1400mL pot better), 1 Al reflective base, and 1 Al 3 x 22" windscreen, weighed in at 1.4 ounces.

Those older instructions were for my beta 1 model. I did say somewhere in that article (not the instructions) that the performance was not that consistant and it ended up that it needed more stable conditions than trail conditions allowed. It also did not work well with narrow bottom pots, it really needed a wide bottom and/or curved sides. The pot support on that one was unstable especially with tall pots. The newer version I posted in the forum of my website is a little more stable, but not that great. The new idea that I have come up with and isn't posted on the site is the construction of the Ti pot support. I have made one from sheet aluminum and it worked, today I am oredering the Ti and I am going to cut a model as soon as it arrives. BTW, my plan was to include a DIY kit with instructions to save people the hassle of getting the material, that should come in at about $7 plus shipping.

The stove weight sounds a bit high, but that could mostly be windscreen.



I then took it outside to test. Environmental conditions were 40 degrees F (exactly) and 0-10mph winds intermittently. I placed exactly 2 cups in my titanium pot, covered it with the lid and started the stove. I timed it with a stopwatch and it took over 12:00 to boil, and even then it was not a rolling boil. I was a little disappointed, as from your website I was expecting to see a boil time in the range of 5-8 minutes.

Yes, that would figure. With that older design it would take about 24ml of alcohol to get a boil, and I don't remember if the stove holds that much. The newer design as tested would take about 15ml of fuel to do that and would do itin about 8:30.



Additionally, with the somewhat unstable pot support, I was afraid that my pot was going to topple over during some of the 10mph gusts. I imagine that in real on-trail conditions when even "calm" winds can be 20-30mph, it would topple.


I wouldn't want to use it in those conditions either. :D

Look at this: http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1013. The pot stand in this is still a little bit less stable than I wanted, but near the bottom of the thread is a hint of what the new pot support will look like. I have been playing withthe design and come up with a little bit more stable platform. I plan to get some sheet steel today and make a final test version with the strength of steel to test overall stability and how hard the Ti may be to cut using current tools.



In conclusion, I was not that impressed with Ion stove, but with further design changes and "flawless" construction by a "professional" maybe it will be better. Furthermore, I tend to hike year-round, in temperatures from below 0F to 100F. After much testing, I still am not convinced that an alcohol stove would work very well (if at all) in cold conditions. However, I would like to try again in the summer when the time comes. But for now I will stick with my Simmerlite. (Although I would like to try the JetBoil as well, but cant see the necessity of spending $80 when I already have a stove that works fine).

I have found that to be the case, sometimes in the translation of trying to put instructions on the web, the idea of "loosely packed" insulation means something different, or the mating technique of the two cans that someone might use can destroy seals in a critical spot. Lord knows I have tossed a lot of stoves during production that someone else may not have because the flaw that is obvious to me isn't to them. My goal now is to standardize some tooling with templates here to streamline production and get rid of those flaws.

Also, my instructions will include a temperature guide. An alcohol stove does have different fuel requirements based on water tempand air temp. It is invisible to the canister stove user because they just shut the stove off when they are done and might not notice the 10%-20% increase in fuel usage like an alcohol stove user would,



Its supposed to rain all weekend, so if it does Im going to give the tuna can stove a try and compare it.

Just my thoughts...

Thanks for your thoughts. The better I understand the user, the better decison I will make. As a stove nut this to me is the Unobtanium of stoves, but to others it might so unimportant that they could care less.

[SGT Rock]

I am all for the capitalist, entrepreneurial, innovative endeavors... I once bought a gallon jug of water for over $2 because I really liked the design of the bottle (it had a purplish-translucent hue that made the water look really refreshing). That said, I'm way too much of a novice to make my own coke-can stove (or at least I think I am) and ultimately, you would need a serious chart in the ad (like you suggested) to convince me to spend $18 on a stove. Showing: SRPs of the ION and competitors (in similar price ranges when available--including the standard pepsi can stove), Fuel efficiency (with a fuel-calculator like you find on most car sites trying to sell hybrids ).


I looked at other alcohol stoves on the market and E-Bay, I think $18 for a Ti pot stand and aluminum stove isn't too bad a price. People at one time were paying me similar prices for Cat stoves.




I had thought of that. My plan was to offer a commission to a couple of local sellers and then hit some hiker gatherings with a supply of them.

[quote]

Lastly--and I don't know if any of this has been even slightly useful so far, but one more thought--people generally look at fuel use/weight efficiency, and overall cost and functionality, but like the purple bottle of water, the [i]appearance of the stove is terribly important to many. Offer custom painting (like flames on the sides!!:banana), the more "homemade look" for those who either don't care about paint/style or are trying to make someone believe that they actually made it themselves?!, camouflage (for L.Wolf or yourself), maybe names of universities, states, towns, trail names? People will agree to slightly higher prices if they think that something has been custom made for them (give them some options).

Just a couple of thoughts. I really like the paint job idea though.

My wife recommended the same thing to me last night. I have been looking at ordering custom blank cans from a supplier and getting just that. But for now, the plan is to sand the original paint off so you get a silver and gray stove.

[food]

Top,

Each of my alcohol stoves has a problem.

Trangia - too heavy.
Brasslite - unstable.
antigravitygear - requires priming.

$20 to someone that has contributed as much as you have to the hiking comunity is no big deal.

[rickb]

Not sure why, but I feel an illogical need for a screw on top.

Even if it made perfect sense to switch on the basis of weight and performance, honestly I would only do so if I found an alternative that had Maglite/Leatherman construction quality, and most likely a screw on cap.

If you go into production, do you think you might have any product liability issues? I am probably just paranoid about such things...

[The Old Fhart]

SGT Rock,
Having been told by several people to patent a product I was selling I went through some of the same questions you are facing. I am not a lawyer (although I did stay at a Holiday Inn) so here is my take, which may or may not be totally correct. Without commenting on the actual product there are some things you’d have to consider. First, if you patented a device there wouldn’t be patent police out there to enforce your patent. What would have to happen if someone copied you invention is that you would have to file suit and sue them in court to prove damages. If you won a suit against a copycat you would probably get court costs as well as damages that might be 3 times the amount of what their sale of your copied product were (assuming they kept records). You would have to go through this process every time some other person chose to copy your patented device. Also keep in mind that if you prove they violated your patent you still might have to have a seperate suit to actually collect the judgement.

I have to word the following carefully but I can say I do have first-hand information of this story. A multi-national company had a corporate patent attorney talk to the engineering and sales people. One interesting example he used was how his parent company wanted to get a trash compactor on the market but another large company already had the only one on the market. In order to get one on the market quickly and gain market share, without spending years on research, they bought some of the competitor’s compactors and copied the machines exactly, down to unused holes in mounting brackets, etc. It was obvious that these were copies and in the suit that followed that involved a few years of legal maneuvering, the suit was settled in the competitor’s favor and the copied products could no longer be sold. However, in that time the company had gained market share because their product was, surprise-surprise, just as good, and in that time they developed another model that didn’t violate any patents. The point was that this company considered the cost-benefits of a lawsuit in their business decision and decided it was the cheapest way out. On a small scale venture like your stove I don't think anyone would bat a eye before copying your design because they wouldn't be concerned about you suing them.

So I’m not saying getting a patent isn’t a good idea but you might want to check with a real lawyer to get the facts. I know I (and many others on WB) have been told we don’t know Jack S**t so any advice gleaned from this thread probably wouldn’t help you in court. :D Good luck.

[weary]

As someone who cooks regular rice (20 minutes) and relies on my wood stove for water purification, as needed, I'm obviously not going to be a customer, except simply out of curiosity.

But a couple of thoughts anyway. Patents tend to be expensive and the market usually has to be in the thousands to make the likely investment worthwhile. Even if you succeed in winning a patent, to be useful it has to be enforceable. Make sure that a tiny change wouldn't allow someone to easily steal your design.

Would a "patent pending" stamp provide sufficient protection for initial construction and sales, while the market place was tested? I have a friend with scores of patents, costing him many thousands over the years, none of which have ever earned him a dime.

Finally, it seems to me, that you have sufficient positive response to make an initial batch of stoves for folks to test in the real world.

Weary

[dje97001]

I just had a thought... peoples' family members are always trying to buy the "hiker" in the family really "cool" "hiking" things... sell these things on QVC as the next generation in ultralight outdoor cooking. I hear that people make a killing on those channels---one hour typically sells enough of the product that the small-time businesses sell out their inventory and spend the rest of the year living off of the money earned (and making next year's batch). Just a thought--I think they usually make it easy for small-time people to get listed too.

[The Solemates]

SGT Rock,
Having been told by several people to patent a product I was selling I went through some of the same questions you are facing. I am not a lawyer (although I did stay at a Holiday Inn) so here is my take, which may or may not be totally correct. Without commenting on the actual product there are some things you’d have to consider. First, if you patented a device there wouldn’t be patent police out there to enforce your patent. What would have to happen if someone copied you invention is that you would have to file suit and sue them in court to prove damages. If you won a suit against a copycat you would probably get court costs as well as damages that might be 3 times the amount of what their sale of your copied product were (assuming they kept records). You would have to go through this process every time some other person chose to copy your patented device. Also keep in mind that if you prove they violated your patent you still might have to have a seperate suit to actually collect the judgement.

I have to word the following carefully but I can say I do have first-hand information of this story. A multi-national company had a corporate patent attorney talk to the engineering and sales people. One interesting example he used was how his parent company wanted to get a trash compactor on the market but another large company already had the only one on the market. In order to get one on the market quickly and gain market share, without spending years on research, they bought some of the competitor’s compactors and copied the machines exactly, down to unused holes in mounting brackets, etc. It was obvious that these were copies and in the suit that followed that involved a few years of legal maneuvering, the suit was settled in the competitor’s favor and the copied products could no longer be sold. However, in that time the company had gained market share because their product was, surprise-surprise, just as good, and in that time they developed another model that didn’t violate any patents. The point was that this company considered the cost-benefits of a lawsuit in their business decision and decided it was the cheapest way out. On a small scale venture like your stove I don't think anyone would bat a eye before copying your design because they wouldn't be concerned about you suing them.

So I’m not saying getting a patent isn’t a good idea but you might want to check with a real lawyer to get the facts. I know I (and many others on WB) have been told we don’t know Jack S**t so any advice gleaned from this thread probably wouldn’t help you in court. :D Good luck.

Excellent advice. Happens all the time with stoves on the market right now.

[Whistler]

I think it's a solid idea, and I would look forward to playing with it. One thing you might want to consider is to include an optimized windscreen, or at least have a pre-made, best-fit windscreen/ reflectors available as a purchase option.

Windscreen needs vary will vary with pot size, but perhaps a few stock models for the most common cookware could be a nice offer, and it would simplify the whole package for those who may not enjoy fiddling as much as many alcohol cookers do.
-Mark

[MadAussieInLondon]

how well does the aluminium burner stack up to the heat output and constant use? dont some soda can stoves disintergrate under the heat/pressure?

the new brasslites simmer and burn, as far as homemade stoves go, i think they are top of the line and to be honest it would take a lot of prying cold dead fingers for me to release my old brasslite solo (which doesnt simmer), so is closer to your idea..

if I were going to buy a new stove I really dont know.. $18 seems cheap when your putting titanium in it.... isnt titanium difficult to work with?

its a nice price point for sure. the market seems pretty full for homemade stoves, and with so many instructions around the internet... dunno... skeptical.. sorry for the negatives boss.

[walkin' wally]

Hi Sgt. Rock

I would be interested in trying another more efficient stove. The price seems okay to me. How does this one work in temps below freezing? I have a pepsi can stove now.
I was wondering if the initial outlay for you needs to be that high ($)? I don't know anything about materials though.

Walkin Wally

[Kerosene]

dje97001 has a good sense of what it takes to market a product. Us "engineers" are sometimes too analytical, whereas a portion of the population favors more subjective factors.

The Old Fhart echoes my concerns about trying to enforce a patent. Unless the underlying technology (not the whole stove itself) is so novel that it could be scaled up into more expensive, high-volume products, then I don't think it would be worth your time or money (but you at least would be able to brag to everyone that you have a patent in your name:banana).

Per Whistler, I'd definitely look for a custom windscreen if I was to buy something like this. Frankly, I think that the weight of a windscreen should be included for any stove, since it should be an integral part of your cooking platform.

To convince the engineer in me, I'd have to see comparisons on weight, boil times, fuel consumption, stability...basically any relevant data. Of course, few other manufacturers provide this since they don't want to highlight their deficiencies.

A $20-$25 price tag seems fine to me, especially since I'm really not that handy (I'm a software engineer). Paint the sucker in candy apple high gloss and I'm sure that QVC or HSN would sell a few hundred for you!

When all is said and done, my advice is that I'd only do this to make a little extra cash that you might then be able to funnel into more refinements to get the boil times down or add some sort of lightweight simmer option.

[SGT Rock]

I think it's a solid idea, and I would look forward to playing with it. One thing you might want to consider is to include an optimized windscreen, or at least have a pre-made, best-fit windscreen/ reflectors available as a purchase option.

Windscreen needs vary will vary with pot size, but perhaps a few stock models for the most common cookware could be a nice offer, and it would simplify the whole package for those who may not enjoy fiddling as much as many alcohol cookers do.
-Mark

I used to sell the custom stoves and the windscreen (belive it or not) was often the most labor intensive part and the one I hated doing the most. Sometimes I would get some very unrealistic orders for HUGE pots for small stoves and wonder if the person ordering it had read anything I wrote about those stoves.

I have thought about offering a windscreen kit that would come with a 5" disk of aluminum and a screen piece that was 3" x 22" with the air holes already cut. That would fit pots up to 7" in diameter. I would imagine that $5 would be resonable for such a kit.

[SGT Rock]

how well does the aluminium burner stack up to the heat output and constant use? dont some soda can stoves disintergrate under the heat/pressure?

Burners that disintigrate are the pressurized models. Mine isn't pressurized. It should last for years unless you step on it.



the new brasslites simmer and burn, as far as homemade stoves go, i think they are top of the line and to be honest it would take a lot of prying cold dead fingers for me to release my old brasslite solo (which doesnt simmer), so is closer to your idea..

The Brasslite is a good stove.I highly recommend them to everyone. The craftsmanship is a much higher level than what I am intending to offer, and the stove fills a different niche. There was a close stove at one time, the old solo model which Aaron doesn't make anymore. He didn't even make the solo until Ididmy tests and I think it was to try and fit the niche I was looking at with this sort of stove. My guess was there wasn't enough market at the lightweight end for a stove that most people could make a lighter version of themselves, at least not at $30. But my stove would be lighter and more fuel efficient. I also consider Aaron a friend and I am not out to try and compete with him in that sector.



if I were going to buy a new stove I really dont know.. $18 seems cheap when your putting titanium in it.... isnt titanium difficult to work with?

its a nice price point for sure. the market seems pretty full for homemade stoves, and with so many instructions around the internet... dunno... skeptical.. sorry for the negatives boss.

Titanium isn't supposed to be easy, but it is very heat neutral which is a good thing for the stand. It is also very strong and doesn't flex too much which is also good for the stand. It doesn't make a very good stove burner which is why I wouldn't recommend the Vargo or whatever it is called. Aluminum is better than brass for heat characteristics and brass comes in about second.

The market is full of homemade stoves and I don't think I could own it, I just like making stoves and think my mousetrap is better at the end it is built to occupy. I actually could make a simmer option for the stove, but my estimate is that the person that would buy it isn't looking for that. My market is basically the gram weenie that can't built his own stove and wants the absolute lightest and most efficient.

[SGT Rock]

But a couple of thoughts anyway. Patents tend to be expensive and the market usually has to be in the thousands to make the likely investment worthwhile. Even if you succeed in winning a patent, to be useful it has to be enforceable. Make sure that a tiny change wouldn't allow someone to easily steal your design.

Would a "patent pending" stamp provide sufficient protection for initial construction and sales, while the market place was tested? I have a friend with scores of patents, costing him many thousands over the years, none of which have ever earned him a dime.

Finally, it seems to me, that you have sufficient positive response to make an initial batch of stoves for folks to test in the real world.

Weary

Based on what I found out and reading some of ya'll responses this is what I have seen and thought about:

Patent pending only applies if I have a provisional pattent and that gives me a year to get a real patent. I can get one for about $350.

But the point about a patent only protects me if I actually go after someone is likely to put me out of it because the cost of doing it would probably be more than what I could make out of a special niche product like this. What I would more likely do is make the plans available but noncommercial copyright:


Noncommercial. You let others copy, distribute, display, and perform your work — and derivative works based upon it — but for noncommercial purposes only.

[SGT Rock]

Hi Sgt. Rock

I would be interested in trying another more efficient stove. The price seems okay to me. How does this one work in temps below freezing? I have a pepsi can stove now.
I was wondering if the initial outlay for you needs to be that high ($)? I don't know anything about materials though.

Walkin Wally

It works well below freezing. It just takes a little more fuel. It can be a little hard to light, but I have used alcohol down to single digits. The interesting problem I am having today is all my manufactured stoves are not performing at the same standards of my hand made stoves, something that I need to work out. I think it may someohow be the steel stands I have been making until my Ti shows up. The steel stands are holding up great and are stable, but they sure are heavy, now the stove weighs a whole ounce!

[J.D.]

.
$20 to someone that has contributed as much as you have to the hiking comunity is no big deal.
May I echo that...? Even if the price went up by $2.00 - ...hehehe!

Took me 8 or 10 attempts to make the Don Johnson (Johnston..?) Photon stove. Still using it (3 yrs.) and I swear it only takes ~ 5 mins. to boil in my .9 liter Evernew Ti pot. Is that the pot you refer to...?

Do not have; but, LIKE the simmer ability with the Brasslite. Currently using a combo windscreen/stand from StoveStomper's design which works quite well - seen that? Can use Esbit with same. GREAT stability solution!

Air/Water temps & wind will vary boil time; but, your quoted boil time seems long...? Ahhh.! Who cares...? When I use it, I am out there someplace and not in a hurry to get out the door for some hot date!

Sure, I'll buy one! Will you be at the Hot Springs Trail Fest (04/23)? I'm gonna be right next to Mr. Speer and all his hammocks. If you're there and have a bag full, $20.00 is no problem. BTW, there "may" be a few beer cans available there for your project!

RE: Patent - As noted by others - Expensive... But, you seem to be a smart guy and on to something. Maybe this is my chance to get in on the ground floor and buy an "Original" before you go Big-Time and they cost $89.95 on QVC. ($129.95 when "Super-Sized" for 2-3-4 group cooking.)

J.D.

[SGT Rock]

dje97001 Per Whistler, I'd definitely look for a custom windscreen if I was to buy something like this. Frankly, I think that the weight of a windscreen should be included for any stove, since it should be an integral part of your cooking platform.

Windscreen weight can very a lot because of pots. My personal Ion stove and screen weighs in at 0.7 ounces. For someone with a larger pot, this could be up to 1.5 ounces. This may seem like peanuts to some, but those are important to me when we are talking at this extreme end of the spectrum.



To convince the engineer in me, I'd have to see comparisons on weight, boil times, fuel consumption, stability...basically any relevant data. Of course, few other manufacturers provide this since they don't want to highlight their deficiencies.

I agree. I also think that my numbers would be suspicious if I did it on someone else's stoves. Thankfully Thru-Hiker.com and others have already run the numbers so I can reference them. Most folks probably wouldn't care, but hard core data freaks would notice the difference.



A $20-$25 price tag seems fine to me, especially since I'm really not that handy (I'm a software engineer). Paint the sucker in candy apple high gloss and I'm sure that QVC or HSN would sell a few hundred for you!


You are the niche I am looking for. I also found some engine paint that should do the job, I can offer it in midnight blue, jet black,flat black, aluminum, red, and a candy apple red looking color.



When all is said and done, my advice is that I'd only do this to make a little extra cash that you might then be able to funnel into more refinements to get the boil times down or add some sort of lightweight simmer option.

Actually my plan was to bide my time until the capillary flow ceramics are available and I can sell a gasoline version at less than an ounce.

[J.D.]

Additonal Thoughts

RE: Simmer

"Rosaleen" on the Hammock Forum tells me that she achieves a simmer by adding WATER...!!! ...to the alcohol....! I questioned that and she says it works. AND, she's got way more experince out there than I...

So... Really, really, REALLY specific info on how to do that water trick would "solve" the need for a Brasslite-simmer-ring gadget and reduce weight.

RE: Liability

A 47 paragraph DISCLAIMER should take care of that. Font size would have to be teeny-tiny to silk screen on the stove.

RE: Marketing

You're in the military. Heard about this "Homeland Security Dept."...? They have more money than they know what to do with... Your stove should be suggested (Required !) equipment in every home in America for impending disasters. AAA could sell it as Emergency Gear for travelers stuck in a snow drift packaged with a can of beans and a glossy 28 page User Manual.

Painting it Fire Engine Red or camo is interesting...<g>... But, it made me think that the stand should have an arrow that sez: "Point into Wind" -- And, the legs should have an arrow saying "Down"... ...hehehe!

[oldfivetango]

Salute Sarge,
Once you are satisfied with your new stove and get up to a flawless level of production quality;put me down for one.Only $18 dollars-that right?
You deserve that much for the work and info you have done and made available on this site alone.
I put my treasured Optimus 123r back on the shelf for a pound or so in weight savings.Now i have a Tinman,a Brasslite Turbo2D,and one i made myself from a can of French Onion Dip.
I figure one more won't break the bank and its a good thing to keep money
in circulation-helps the economy dontchaknow.
Say when ready.Thanks.
Cheers to all,
Oldfivetango:bse

[SGT Rock]

I ordered enough Ti to make a run of about 9. I am keeping two of them, I'll sell any that end up coming out correctly. Depending on how that works out, I may make another larger batch. Looks like I may have enough interest just here to make that many worth it. What colors ya'll want?

[J.D.]

I ordered enough Ti to make a run of about 9. I am keeping two of them, I'll sell any that end up coming out correctly. Depending on how that works out, I may make another larger batch. Looks like I may have enough interest just here to make that many worth it. What colors ya'll want?
CHARTREUSE ---- No silk screened logo with your website noted...? --- ...just kidding!

Seriously, I guess you would want to have something that is "distinctive" enough to establish a "Brand Naming" kind-of-thing so that people are made aware of "who did this".

The hot red that someone mentioned with the "AT" on it or your website. It never hurts to advertise ya' know....?

[SGT Rock]

Well, doing it from my home for now sort of limits the choices. Also, since I would worry about the durability of the paint with the heat, I may not get into a print job on the cans at the factory since it will only wear off. Engine Paint seems to have enough colors and has a heat resistance up to 500F, so that may be my only option. I am leaning towards a cool background color like Midnight Blue with aluminum colored lettering or maybe a cherry red in there somehow. The stove stand itself has to deal with really high temperatures, so it is either bare Titanium or 1500 flat black stove paint.

Maybe a snazzy flat black stand with Cherry Red stove and aluminum colored lettering.

[Tha Wookie]

I'm a little suprised that you would want to charge for the design. Is this right? I went to your site to find the design to see what the differences were between the many other freely distributed designs on the net, but all I saw were the pictures and description, but no design.

I do not worship capitalism or any system of government like some other people, but I do respect your right to market any new innovation you might produce. However, backpacking can stove designs have been freely distributed out of mutual hiker generosity and community.

True, Antigravity sells stoves, but they're not really a new innovation. Like their backpacks, which are outright ripoffs of Ray Jardine's pack design (bad juju by the way), the stove just has some minor design differences from what is already out there. I think the reason Tin Man might be successful (I don't know if he is) is not because his design is better, but simply because customers don't have to make their own. I had a student in a backpacking course who bought a stove from Tin Man before our class trip, but we made our own the morning before the trip in about one hour. After we did some comparisons, we chose his self-made one to bring on the trip because it did the job just as well as the other and he made it himself.

My point is, tweaking an existing design a little (especially a freely distributed one) and making a marginal increase in efficiency doesn't convince me any not just to make my own with a couple cans around a rubbish bin with some other hikers. I'm not convinced. Is it a significant (p<-.05) increase? I couldn't really tell.

But I think if you want to market them, then I would market them to alcohol stove newbies who don't yet realize how incredibly simple and easy it is to make a can stove. Until they realize that, they'll continue to buy them.

If you made them out of fabricated materials, like the trangia, then you would have more of an angle IMO. But the trangia is unecessarily heavy. Maybe you could make a material innovation to bolster your design. I mean, if you sold a kit, does that mean you send people some beer cans and hardware cloth for $7?

It looks like a great design, and I haven't seen it work. Maybe I would be blown away and buy one. But now i'm just not convinced for me that it's worth not making a stove in 30 minutes that has worked for 6000 miles already (which does cook liptons for two, Spiritwalker). Like I said, I think the best angle is doing the work for folks who are new and intimidated by stove construction (although they could easily learn at www.pcthiker.com (http://www.pcthiker.com)) and selling it to them.

Good luck!

[NICKTHEGREEK]

I've been following the home made alcohol stove concept for several years and from the posts I've read about the subject in several forums I come up with the following impressions:

1. Folks who use them are almost always tinkerers- they love to tweak anything and may not consider patent infringement issues by knocking your design off with a very minor mod (they will say improvement).
2. I get the impression that many of the ul alcohol stove users are ultra-frugal also and any price above free for the asking would be far too much of a temptation to infringe on your patent.
3. About a month after you sell the first one, you'll see a dozen posts concerning how to make one just like it on the web.
4. Assuming it's a really great idea, a breakthrough so to speak, some company out of Taiwan will mass produce it despite the patent because they know you won't be able to stop them without spending a large sum of money and time.

[SGT Rock]

I have decided not to patent, looks like the protection isn't that great to begin with. I sort of thought about all the cool gear ideas on the internet I have borrowed from over the years and I figure it wouldn't hurt for folks to copy the design all they want. I'll just personalize mine so you will know it is a SGT Rock Ion stove when you see it.

The flat black pot supports came out fine. Painting the stove with engine paint is a cool idea too, looks very good. I have black, silver, and red to play with. I could add a nice dark blue to the choices.

Titanium is on the way, and if the Ti works out, I actually found a wholesale supply place where I can get it in bulk cheap and even sell the stand or blanks so someone could make their own Ti version as well.

Anyway, I'll probably just tighten up the process, put the plans in the public domain as a Copyrighted property or something, and sell a few here and there.

[peter_pan]

Rock,

better think $3000-12000 for a patent depending on a lot of ifs...may be best to forgo it for an item such as this.

[ncmtns]

I already have an alcohol stove, but I think personally, if you threw in some kind of fuel container with the increments on the side to sweeten the deal?

[SGT Rock]

Well there is a cool bottle that Aaron over at Brasslite sells. It has an 8 ounce fuel chamber with a seperate 1/2 ounce chamber for measuring the fuel. http://www.brasslite.com/OrderForms/bottleOrder.html#8oz

It is a lttle heavy for a real ultralighter since a real ultralight hiker can use the cap off a 9 ounce soda bottle and the bottle would only weigh about 0.4 ounces less :datz

[stickman]

Rock, I'm not a total gram weenie but for $18 plus shipping I'd buy one right now just to try it out. How do I place my order?

PS, my son has just dropped college and raised his right hand. He reports to Ft. Benning on 20050209 for BCT, AIT, airborne school, and Ranger Indoctrination. Looks like I'm gonna need a new hiking buddy...

Stickman

[NICKTHEGREEK]

I have decided not to patent, looks like the protection isn't that great to begin with. I sort of thought about all the cool gear ideas on the internet I have borrowed from over the years and I figure it wouldn't hurt for folks to copy the design all they want. I'll just personalize mine so you will know it is a SGT Rock Ion stove when you see it.

The flat black pot supports came out fine. Painting the stove with engine paint is a cool idea too, looks very good. I have black, silver, and red to play with. I could add a nice dark blue to the choices.

Titanium is on the way, and if the Ti works out, I actually found a wholesale supply place where I can get it in bulk cheap and even sell the stand or blanks so someone could make their own Ti version as well.

Anyway, I'll probably just tighten up the process, put the plans in the public domain as a Copyrighted property or something, and sell a few here and there.
Best wishes for good fortune with your enterprise, I'm sure your product will be all it can be.

[SGT Rock]

Well I want to get some Ti and try making the stands. I know I can make them from Ti, it is just how stable will the Ti end up being (enough for someone else) and how hard will it be to work with. If that works out, I plan to sell them starting next month. Hopefully I can make a batch of them and make them available for people that want to start thru-hikes around March.

Right now I am tweeking things to make it more consmable and to make the process more efficient. I can crankl out the actual stoves at probably 10 an hour. The efficiency of each stove is also being verified by a burn at the house before they go to ship since that is an important factor to me, so I need a way to streamline the QC.

Based on feeback I have also tried painting the stoves to make them look better. Flat Black and aluminum paint work great. The gloss colors seem to have an issue, I don't know if it is the fact that they need longer to dry or if there is something about high temp gloss paint, but during my test burns the gloss colors get tacky and get dirt stuck to the surface. If I can't rectify this, then silver or flat black will be the only available colors.

The stands are VERY strong using steel. I have gotten the steel's weight down by a few grams so that it only weighs 15 grams. This may get the entire stove weight down to 8-10 grams once I get Ti working. Right now the Ti is the hold up on the entire stove.

I think a windscreen is a good idea. Right now I am trying to find where I can get the right sort of aluminum. The current stuff I use is only 19" long, so I need to find a source of stuff that is much longer. The idea is a kit for you to cut your own.

As to fuel bottles. I don't know what to do. The Brasslite bottle is so cool, but Aaron came up with that idea and I don't want to undercut a friend. He also seels a cool .9L aluminum pot that weighs 4.0 ounces. Maybe a link to his site for those two things from my site is a good idea. Sort of like a JetBoil total package for alcohol: Stove, Pot, Fuel bottle, and Windscreen. I think the entire thing would weight in at about 7 ounces without fuel. Anti-Gravity gear makes cool cozies (I am not to crazy about the material) and that would cost about $8 and weigh about 1.5 ounces to finish the deal out, or the hiker could just use a hat.

The next thing I am going to do because of variation in pots is change the fuel consumption quotes so I don't get pinned into a corner by a total gram counting weenie. New consumption charts will say something like:

temps 35-60.....0.5 to 0.6 fluid ounces.........~9:00-10:00 minutes to boil.

[saimyoji]

Great ideas there SGT Rock. Maybe you want to consider the problem from a different point of view: small lightweight stove (already got them) that cooks to max efficiency. Perhaps the issue of efficiency lies in what you are cooking in and not with the stove itself. Imagine: a pot with an indentation in the bottom into which the stove could partially fit, with extensions around the rim of the base of the pot so that the pot is slightly elevated above the stove, but still rests on the ground/table. You've still got the alcohol stove at higher efficiency and your pot is stable. I'm sure you could rig something with that Ti you've gotJust an idea I had. Do with it what you want.

How's your Trail Sushi coming?

[SGT Rock]

Well I have been giving some thinking to that. My far goal would be to make an all encompassing thing like the JetBoil except for an alcohol stove. I guess more like a Trangia for ultralight hikers, anyway...

I looked at pots and so far the only pot that I like is the Evernew 0.9L pot because of it's nice wide base more than anything else. Seems that all the Ti pots these days are getting into this narrow and tall design which is really inefficient from a heat transfer standpoint. I also like the Snowpeak Ti Bowl at 20 ounces, that would be the killer version and I could even make the stand in a curved shape to fit into the pot bottom better for more support, but I haven't found a supplier and 20 ounces is just a little too small. But imagine:

$35 Evernew Ti Pot (http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=6188525&parent_category_rn=5760756&vcat=REI_SEARCH) at 4.1 ounces.
$5 8 ounce fuel bottle (http://www.brasslite.com/OrderForms/bottleOrder.html#8oz) at 1.3 ounces
$8 Anti-Gravity Gear style cozy (http://www.antigravitygear.com/products/evernew_9_liter.html) at about 1.2 ounces.
$18 Ion Stove (http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/a100_0284.jpg) at 0.3 ounces.
$2 Windscreen (http://hikinghq.net/sgt_stove/wind_screen.html) trimmed down special for that rig to 0.4 ounces (about the weight of my windscreen now).

Total weight without fuel is 7.3 ounces and cost is $58 (less than the weight of just the "pot" on a JetBoil). Add in 8 ounces of fuel for another 6.6 ounces, and your start weight for a week is only 13.9 ounces (less than the JetBoil without a fuel bottle added), with an average weight of 10.6 ounces during the trip. And that gives you plenty of boils (16) abet slow ones compared to the JetBoil which gets 16 true boils for a 22.2 ounce start weight.

Even if you wanted to bump up to a bigger fuel bottle, just add a 12 ounce soda bottle full of alcohol as a back up and you only add about 10.6 ounces and still lighter than a JetBoil for start weight while still maintaining a lower average carry weight. With this set up you could get another 24 boils, for 40 total, but who is going to go that long between re-supply with an alcohol stove? Add to all that a cost of about 11 - 13 cents a boil for alcohol compared to 20 cents a boil cost for a JetBoil and fuel availability differences.

Something else to think about with stoves is cooking time. When a stove heats to boil in three minutes, then you put it out, it only cooks the food for about 2 minutes, this is the time the water is above about 190 degrees. With an alcohol stove,even though it takes 10 minutes at some times to boil, it reaches 190 at about 5-6 minutes and thus cooks food for 4-5 minutes on the stove. Is is any wonder that long distance hikers seem to switch to the lightest and simplest alcohol stoves? It is sort of counter intuitive to the person that has a microwave and has fast food available all the time.

[markellag]

I like my Trangia 28 stove-pot-lid-handle because everything packs into one simple small container.

I do not like the idea of these homemade stoves because of the nusiance of having several, not easily packable items.
Packability is the issue for me.

[dje97001]

I'm serious about this thing doing well on QVC... I just saw an ad on TV... for the website. I seriously think that family members of hikers would buy these in a heartbeat--for only 20 bucks? You should seriously consider it.

http://www.qvcproductsearch.com/

[Toolshed]

Sgt Rock - I would have absolutely no interest, as I like to make my own pepsi can stoves and would look to other areas og gear for more substantial weight savings.

With that said, I am sure there is a market out there for folks who are just starting out or who are not as skilled (or care not to muss) with tools and such - If it were 10 years ago, I'd likely be queued up for an order.

[SGT Rock]

I think I can add a windscreen and keep the cost at about $19. I figure less than $20 is still an impulse buy in the gear world. Besides the QVC thing, I was thinking of all the new thru-hikers this year that are starting Springer with the MSR Wisperheavy stoves and such, I figure between Neels Gap and Damascus must will convert to alcohol, and if I can get some out in time, then at the store the lightest complete stove kit with windscreen and stand might win out over some of the competition. I just gotta finish the stand design.

[SGT Rock]

For ya'll that have been tracking this, if you wanna see something cool, go here: http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/a100_0299.jpg
:D

[saimyoji]

Sweeet. Looks good. I had a thought (in my newb-ness): is cooling down time a consideration? How long does it take the stove to cool to the point you can put it in your pack? Warm vs. cool days?

[SGT Rock]

Well really my experience is about 30 seconds to a minute, but I put 5 minutes in the safety warning sheet just to cover my ass. Of course I have never used a Ti stand, but from what I understand about Ti, it should cool about as fast as the stove.

[grandview]

engine paint looks good on it

[Tha Wookie]

For ya'll that have been tracking this, if you wanna see something cool, go here: http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/a100_0299.jpg
:D

Hey that thing is fly! I like it Rock. Keep up the good work, soldier!:sun

[SGT Rock]

Wait and see what the new windscreen will look like if things work out :D

[SGT Rock]

Drum roll please!
.................................................. .............

[SGT Rock]

All the pieces are here, and I have made a demo shot or two. Here it is:



http://www.hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0301.JPG


The windscreen is a beauty:

http://www.hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0310.JPG


And the entire thing fits in the little box:

http://www.hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0307.JPG

And because I think the windscreen material is cool, here is another shot:

http://www.hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0305.JPG

And the windscreen material is sturdy, yet only weighs 0.5 ounces. If you don't trim the screen at all, the stove and screen are only 27 grams, or 1.0 ounces.

[hikerjohnd]

So where do I buy?

[SGT Rock]

I'm in the process of tightening that up right now. Tight now only two are ready for shipping because the paint is drying on the rest. I threw out a batch of them (just the stoves) because they lacked the visual quality I was looking for.

I only have enough material for 10, and I already have advanced orders for a couple of them. If the entire batch sells, then I'm going to order enough to make about 50. If I sell out and you still want one, I can make more come March.

[Nameless]

Hello,

I'm interesting inthe stoves, but one thing has bothered me.

You make it such a big deal that your stove is so light, and yet you are painting it with engine paint, which adds weight. Is there any use to the engine paint other than looks? Can i buy a stove without engine paint?

Sorry if you already addressed this, i can be a bit slow at times
Pink

[weary]

Hello,

I'm interesting inthe stoves, but one thing has bothered me.
You make it such a big deal that your stove is so light, and yet you are painting it with engine paint, which adds weight. Is there any use to the engine paint other than looks? Can i buy a stove without engine paint?
Sorry if you already addressed this, i can be a bit slow at times
Pink
More importantly. How much does that damn paint weigh on a one ounce stove. I need to figure out what I'll have to leave out of my pack to compensate. I'll bet it will be at least the equivalent of a day's worth of dental floss. What needless waste of precious milligrams!

Weary

[SGT Rock]

I never addressed buying one without paint, but I could add that as a special order. That would not hurt my feelings in the lest bit because it saves a couple of steps. I plan to offer the stove in red and blue for now, and I can add natural can with the V8 label still showing until I nail down a supplier of blank cans, then you can get another .0001 grams of weight reduction when I no longer have the original label on there.

[Nameless]

I havent been here in two weeks, so I guess i will respond to this now.

I'm not a gram weenie, my base pack is currently about 15 lbs. It just seems counterproductive to add weight to an item that you are already are sacrificing some boil time for weight loss. If the whole point of the stove is to save weight, why add it?

And i am quite serious about buying one, i would say a 90% chance, so if you want to tell me when you are making your next batch, mabey i will buy one, without the paint. Then again, mabey i will just use my cool unpainted cat can stove and save 25 bucks...

Pink

[flyfisher]

Rock,

I don't think Ti is the right material for an alcohol stove. Brass is best. Aluminum does OK. The problem is the ability of the metal to transfer heat well and efficiently vaporize the alcohol in the starting process.

I think the Ti is too expensive for the project. Weight savings are not very important when the weight of say an AntiGravityGear stove is already in the range of a third of an ounce, with no pot support needed.

That's my honest take.

BTW, is $300 for a patent anything near reality? I had understood from the Air Force patent attorneys that private cost to patent was more like 5-8K. If you have researched a way to successfully get patents (in this age of the Internet) for under $500, I would really like to know about it.

[SGT Rock]

I havent been here in two weeks, so I guess i will respond to this now.

I'm not a gram weenie, my base pack is currently about 15 lbs. It just seems counterproductive to add weight to an item that you are already are sacrificing some boil time for weight loss. If the whole point of the stove is to save weight, why add it?

And i am quite serious about buying one, i would say a 90% chance, so if you want to tell me when you are making your next batch, mabey i will buy one, without the paint. Then again, mabey i will just use my cool unpainted cat can stove and save 25 bucks...

Pink

I get back to Tennessee early March, I can make one then. As to adding weight, the entire stove, stand,and windscreen is 1.0 ounces. I think that is close enough to perfect. I have an idea for an extra part that will allow you to simmer for an extra gram of weight, and you don't have to carry it if you don't want to. I wouldn't. But people are mentioning the desire to simmer.

[SGT Rock]

Rock,

I don't think Ti is the right material for an alcohol stove. Brass is best. Aluminum does OK. The problem is the ability of the metal to transfer heat well and efficiently vaporize the alcohol in the starting process.

I think the Ti is too expensive for the project. Weight savings are not very important when the weight of say an AntiGravityGear stove is already in the range of a third of an ounce, with no pot support needed.

That's my honest take.

BTW, is $300 for a patent anything near reality? I had understood from the Air Force patent attorneys that private cost to patent was more like 5-8K. If you have researched a way to successfully get patents (in this age of the Internet) for under $500, I would really like to know about it.


I appreciate the response. I used the AntiGravity stove and they make a good product, but the stove doesn't need a stand after it gets going, if you put your pot on it right away it goes out. It can take a few minutes to get it there. My stove and stand weigh 1.0 ounces with the windscreen included, and that is before you trim the screen.

The Ti is the stand, not the stove, and it is absolutely the best metal for that because it doesn't act as a heat sink, so no energy is absorbed by it instead of getting to the pot. If it were for the stove I would totally agree since the heat wouldn't transfer back to the fuel and help it vaporize faster. I have done side by side comparisons of stands made from Ti, steel or aluminum and I am very convinced that it saves fuel by going to that.

As to the stove body, aluminum is a better choice, Aaron from Brasslite convinced me of that. If you are trying to save weight and have good heat transfer while maintaining some durability, aluminumis better than the others. Steel is actually a bad choice in that spot because after heating and cooling, it starts to oxidize - I tested that part using tins and such to figure out what I could make a good stove from. Brass would be light, durable, and cool looking, but I'm not about to try working with that, if you remember the original Brasslite costs, the change would really drive up the price.