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VeggieHead
05-29-2011, 11:39
I think i might be spoiled...

Blissful
05-29-2011, 17:51
We plan to grow sprouts while we hike this summer to supplement

Papa D
05-29-2011, 20:02
I dehydrate my own usually, but I have bought stuff from these guys - works well:

www.harmonyhousefoods.com/Dehydrated-Vegetables_c_1.html

Also, as a long distance hiker and trail vegetarian (and gourmet) I've developed quite a few things I like to eat on the trail. Lots of "meat substitutes" keep really well for days - about like cheese (things like "Tofurkey" and "Soysage") - "Primal Strips" which are made of seitan are also a staple for me.

happy cooking!

Sarcasm the elf
05-29-2011, 23:20
Make up for it in town. I just made a waiter bring me a pound of cooked Broccoli with my ribs.

Dogwood
05-30-2011, 14:38
Extend your town veggies availability to the trail! When in a town with a decent sized produce dept take some fresh veggies and possibly fruit to the trail.

Here are some fresh veggies and fruits I've taken to the trail, clove of garlic, a carrot, avocado, banana, a bunch of green onions, potatoes, ginger root, onion, turmeric root, cucumber, fresh greens(shard, spinach, kale, etc), oranges, mangoes, chopped pineapple, celery, apples, kiwi, star apples, etc.

Be creative and look for fruits and veggies that hold up well for two days or so out on the trail.

VeggieHead
05-30-2011, 17:18
We plan to grow sprouts while we hike this summer to supplement

How do you grow sprouts on the trail? I was imagining a garden backpack but figured it was impossible. pics? thanks!

VeggieHead
05-30-2011, 17:19
I dehydrate my own usually, but I have bought stuff from these guys - works well:

www.harmonyhousefoods.com/Dehydrated-Vegetables_c_1.html

Also, as a long distance hiker and trail vegetarian (and gourmet) I've developed quite a few things I like to eat on the trail. Lots of "meat substitutes" keep really well for days - about like cheese (things like "Tofurkey" and "Soysage") - "Primal Strips" which are made of seitan are also a staple for me.

happy cooking!
Thank you! I bring soy burgers and cheese usually... I too like to cook gourmet on the trail. Do you bring olive oil or what do you use to cook with?

Tinker
05-30-2011, 18:44
How do you grow sprouts on the trail? I was imagining a garden backpack but figured it was impossible. pics? thanks!

In a waterbottle with a bit of cheesecloth bed (optional, really). Just wet the seeds and pour off the excess water. Repeat twice daily and the sprouts will grow. They don't need sunlight, and too much heat isn't really good for them so you can keep the waterbottle in your pack.

Tinker
05-30-2011, 18:48
One thing found all along the trail is dandilion greens. Another is plantain (not the banana-like fruit) it's actually a green ground dwelling plant of the species plantago. Both make a good base for salads, but be aware of where you're picking them. Fertilized lawns contain lots of herbicides and pesticides, and pastures often have e-coli bacteria present.

VeggieHead
05-30-2011, 21:06
I dehydrate my own usually, but I have bought stuff from these guys - works well:

www.harmonyhousefoods.com/Dehydrated-Vegetables_c_1.html

Also, as a long distance hiker and trail vegetarian (and gourmet) I've developed quite a few things I like to eat on the trail. Lots of "meat substitutes" keep really well for days - about like cheese (things like "Tofurkey" and "Soysage") - "Primal Strips" which are made of seitan are also a staple for me.

happy cooking!

Thank you! Just bought a dehydrator on amazon -->
http://www.amazon.com/Nesco-FD-75PR-700-Watt-Food-Dehydrator/dp/B000FFVJ3C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306803694&sr=8-1

Hey... do you use a towel as a cutting board too? I just had an idea to make a kitchen towel that has a zipper pocket on one side for utensils/knife/spices... then keep organized when cooking, cut on towel, rest lids on towel, etc

What do you think?

VeggieHead
05-30-2011, 21:09
One thing found all along the trail is dandilion greens. Another is plantain (not the banana-like fruit) it's actually a green ground dwelling plant of the species plantago. Both make a good base for salads, but be aware of where you're picking them. Fertilized lawns contain lots of herbicides and pesticides, and pastures often have e-coli bacteria present.

Very cool... thank you. My wife knew what those were, sometimes she is smarter than me. HA

Maybe I can come up with a recipe for them and post it up. Do you know of any other trail food? I know something like potatoes or chickpeas woudl go nicely with greens... HA :p Thanks.

Dogwood
05-31-2011, 18:09
Add FRESH ramps, brook lettuce, Indian Cucumber root, Morel mushrooms(make sure you got the right mushroom!), ginseng(make sure you got the right item here too!), ginger root(all found on the AT), etc to those dandelion and plantain greens(also found AT side), some grown sprouts, a whole grain like Quinoa(I think it's actually a seed), and some EVOO and BAM! Kickin it up a notch veggie style on the AT!


Check out the recent sprouting thread here on WB started by Kepley titled
"Sprouting." Lots of sproutin while hiking ideas!


Check this system out for sprouting while hiking at www.outdoorherbivore (http://www.outdoorherbivore/)

I just got their mesh hemp bag and some seed for sprouting. Looking forward to trying it out on tail.

Blissful
05-31-2011, 18:42
Same as Dogwood, just picked it up at Trail Days

wannahike
05-31-2011, 18:58
Now you have a dehydrator you can try this site for ideas.

http://www.trailcooking.com/

Pedaling Fool
06-01-2011, 09:45
I love veggies, but not any more http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13608396

VeggieHead
06-01-2011, 23:18
I love veggies, but not any more http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13608396

You caused further investigation --> http://www.about-ecoli.com/ecoli_outbreaks

it seems to happen pretty sporadically all over the world.

k.reynolds70
06-01-2011, 23:49
First night out from a town:

Fresh Bell peppers
Yellow Onion
Garlic
Tomato/Basil Marinara
Italian Sausage
Bowtie Pasta
&
Some type of Italian Cheese (Mozz, Prov, Parm)

Use the context clues & make a Sunday Dinner first night out.

Dogwood
06-01-2011, 23:55
Don't listen to John. He's a member of the American Dairy and American Cattleman's Associations that want you to consume more of their "heathy" foods.

Only kidding John! You got a way of bringing some things up that pose little or no risk.

E. coli DOES NOT pose a substantial hazard IF foods are handled and grown properly. When veggies are contaminated with E.coli it can often be traced to contaminated water or when veggies come in contact with E. coli contaminated products, especially contaminated agricultural products(meat!)

Considering all the veggies that are consumed in all the developed countries worldwide the percentage of E. coli contaminated veggies is incredibly small, ESPECIALLY veggies grown organically in the U.S.!

Keep eating your veggies!

Pedaling Fool
06-02-2011, 07:08
I don't usually post out of concern of risk or safety, more a thing of curiosity. BTW, You'll should see my veggie garden.:sun

Tinker
06-02-2011, 08:20
Very cool... thank you. My wife knew what those were, sometimes she is smarter than me. HA

Maybe I can come up with a recipe for them and post it up. Do you know of any other trail food? I know something like potatoes or chickpeas woudl go nicely with greens... HA :p Thanks.

When you asked about other trail foods the first things that came to mind were wild berries and apples, but there's another item (besides ramps, which we don't have around here - but we do have wild onions which grow in abandoned fields and around cultivated plots) which came to mind - wild carrot (daucus carota - I will check spelling and correct if wrong). The tops look nearly identical to domesticated carrot, and, later in the year we come to know the flower as "Queen Anne's Lace". I'll Google it to see if I can find a picture.
Here is more info than you'll ever need:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=yfp-t-701&va=daucus+carota

Basically, I'd use the root to flavor a vegetable stew, but it's too woody to eat (though you can chew on it for some flavor and a few vitamins and minerals).

Pedaling Fool
06-02-2011, 08:22
It's not my intent to scare anyone, but...http://epi-global.com/blog/epi/alternative-to-plastic-bags-sparks-widespread-health-concerns/ :sun

Pedaling Fool
06-02-2011, 08:28
When you asked about other trail foods the first things that came to mind were wild berries and apples...
I have a blueberry bush, but the damn birds keep eating them:mad:. I'm now growing another type of wild berry bushes (two) near it and they eat those, but still eating my blueberries...seems like they're just eating more. Kind of like taxes -- give more, consume more...

Blissful
06-02-2011, 11:10
It's not my intent to scare anyone, but...http://epi-global.com/blog/epi/alternative-to-plastic-bags-sparks-widespread-health-concerns/ :sun

Boy if its not one thing its another.

And we know EVERYTHING causes cancer...


:D

Winged
06-02-2011, 13:21
We plan to grow sprouts while we hike this summer to supplement

It's posts like this one that make me wish for an "I like" Facebook type option.

Dogwood
06-02-2011, 13:23
I don't usually post out of concern of risk or safety, more a thing of curiosity. BTW, You'll should see my veggie garden.:sun

Just don't water those veggies with water taken from the stock cattle pond! Keep the post rolling John! They are always entertaining.

Winged
06-02-2011, 13:48
Just bought a dehydrator on amazon -->
http://www.amazon.com/Nesco-FD-75PR-700-Watt-Food-Dehydrator/dp/B000FFVJ3C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306803694&sr=8-1


What do you think?

Thanks for this post. 361 people have reviewed this dehydrator on Amazon and it has 4.6 out of 5 stars. This kind of info is a real time saver. I really want to make some banana chips without the oil additives and for a reasonable price. I can purchase this dehydrator for the same price as 24oz of commercially dehydrated bananas.

Dogwood
06-03-2011, 01:41
Trader Joes has awesomely delish and chewy and relatively cheap(about .99 cents - $1.29) smashed(dried and flattened, VERY low volume!) bananas that are so yummy and without any additives or oils! Ingedients: dried bananas!!!



Also, I just picked up at TJoes: 99 cent 8 oz packages of Trader Joes Vegan meals.

1)Cumin and chili chickpeas - water, chickpeas, onions, sunflower oil, spice, blend, cumin,black pepper, chili, dried mango, garlic, ginger, salt.
I added a bit more crystallized ginger and dried mango pieces(also sold at TJ) and I'm going to dehydrate this in the oven on a pan. I think I can get the dehydrated wt down to about 5 - 6 ozs. I'll add this dehydrated mix to some equal parts of quinoa or Lipton Rice Side Dish(Mushroom Flavor probably) and get ROUGHLY three trail dinners each of about 5 oz. On trail I'll add some EVOO, about 1/2-3/4 oz each dinner, for a total cal per meal of about 650 cals at a cost of about 80 - 90 cents each meal.



2)Spiced soybeans - water, onions, tomato, carrots, celery, sunflower oil, spice blend, cumin, black pepper, cardamon, garlic, salt, vinegar. I plan on doing much the same with this dish but instead will add some dried coconut flakes and hemp seed protein instead of the extra ginger and mango. Likewise, on trail I'll add some EVOO. My best guess as of right now is that these dinners will be about 700 cals each costing about 95 cents - $1.10 each and weighing about 5 3/4 oz each.

I also take a hint from reading other folk's vegetarian recipes and make my own, often tweaking portion sizes, nutritional content, some ingredients, and upping the cals/oz.

At the outdoor herbivore site I linked to previously I found two interesting recipes:
1)Basil Walnut Pasta. I used some small quinoa elbow pasta I already had, chopped two small dried tomatoes into the dinner, and followed the rest of their recipe adding: flaxeseed(I buy from bulk bins cheaply), olive oil, dried basil(lots), and chopped walnuts. Had that trail side a few nights ago. Yummy!

2)Chickpea Sesame Pasta. I used some Orzo I already had, and followed the rest of their recipe adding dried hummus(found relatively cheaply in bulk bins), sesame seeds(I used a lot), roasted red pepper(I used red pepper flakes I got free at a pizzeria), garlic(dried granulated, you could get this free at a pizzeria/Italian Restaurant too), olive oil. I'm looking to add some fresh trail grown sprouts to this meal and copious amounts of EVOO.

Pedaling Fool
06-05-2011, 07:32
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/jun/01/european-cucumber-wars-shape-things

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/fs/food-disease/news/may1904produce.html

Pedaling Fool
06-05-2011, 16:33
This just in...seems like with all the blaming of the Spaniards it may of been the Germans, but still not a complete story yet...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110605/ap_on_re_eu/eu_contaminated_vegetables_europe

E. coli outbreak blamed on German veggie sprouts

HAMBURG, Germany – The terrifying E. coli outbreak in Europe appears to have been caused by vegetable sprouts grown in Germany, an agriculture official Sunday as the toll climbed to at least 22 dead and more than 2,200 sickened.

Preliminary tests found that bean sprouts and other sprout varieties from an organic farm in the Uelzen area, between the northern cities of Hamburg and Hannover, could be connected to infected people in five German states, Lower Saxony Agriculture Minister Gert Lindemann said.

"There were more and more indications in the last few hours that put the focus on this farm," Lindemann said at a news conference.

Many restaurants involved in the outbreak had received deliveries of the sprouts, which are often used in salads, Lindemann's spokesman, Gert Hahne, told The Associated Press.

Definitive test results should be available Monday, Lindemann said.
In recent days, as health officials tried to pinpoint the source of the unusually lethal outbreak, suspicion fell on lettuce, cucumbers and tomatoes, perhaps from Spain. Spanish farmers complained that the accusations were having a devastating financial effect.

The German farm was shut down Sunday and all of its produce — including fresh herbs, fruits, flowers and potatoes — was recalled. Two of the farm's employees were also infected with E. coli, Lindemann said. He said 18 different sprout mixtures from the farm were under suspicion — including sprouts of mung beans, broccoli, peas, chickpeas, garlic lentils and radishes.

As for how the sprouts became contaminated, Lindemann noted that they are grown with steam in barrels — an ideal environment for bacteria to multiply.

He said it is possible that the water had been contaminated with E. coli or that the sprout seeds — purchased in Germany and other countries — already contained the bacteria. He said the farmers had not used any manure, which has been known to cause E. coli outbreaks.

Lindemann urged Germans to not eat sprouts until further notice. He said authorities could not yet rule out other possible sources and urged Germans to continue avoiding tomatoes, cucumbers and lettuce for now.

AP journalists went to the farm on Sunday night, but nobody was available to talk. Telephone messages left at the farm's office were also not returned immediately.

"First it's the `evil' Spaniards, and then you hear, very surprised, that it is our neighbor," said Dietrich Benni, who lives near the farm. "It's a bit scary all of this, especially that it is coming from an organic place."

He added: "No more organic food for me for now."

The outbreak has been blamed on a highly aggressive, "super-toxic" strain of E. coli — perhaps one that scientists have never seen before.

E. coli can be found in the feces of humans and livestock and can spread to produce through sloppy bathroom habits among farmworkers and through animal waste in fields and irrigation water. Organic farms tend to use more manure than other producers.

Sprouts have been implicated in previous E. coli outbreaks, particularly one in 1996 in Japan, where tainted radish sprouts killed 12 people and reportedly sickened more than 12,000 others.

The current crisis is the deadliest known E. coli outbreak in modern history.


The head of Germany's national disease control center raised the death toll to 22 Sunday — 21 in Germany and one in Sweden — and said an additional 2,153 people in Germany have been sickened. That figure included 627 people who have developed a rare, serious complication of the disease that can cause kidney failure. Ten other European nations and the U.S. have reported a total of 90 other victims.

Earlier Sunday, Germany's health minister fiercely defended his country's handling of the crisis as he toured a hospital in Hamburg, the epicenter of the emergency.

The comments by Health Minister Daniel Bahr reflected a sharp shift in his public response to the crisis and came after AP journalists reported on emergency room chaos and unsanitary conditions at the same hospital, the University Medical Center in Hamburg-Eppendorf.

On Saturday, Bahr admitted that hospitals in northern Germany were overwhelmed and struggling to provide beds and medical care for victims of the outbreak, and he suggested that other German regions start taking in sick patients from the north.

But after one E. coli survivor told the AP that conditions at the Hamburg hospital were horrendous when she arrived with cramps and bloody diarrhea, Bahr announced a visit and told reporters that German medical workers and northern state governments were doing "everything necessary" to help victims.

Nicoletta Pabst, 41, told the AP that sanitary conditions at the Hamburg-Eppendorf hospital were shocking and its emergency room was overflowing with ailing people when she arrived May 25.

"All of us had diarrhea and there was only one bathroom each for men and women — it was a complete mess," she said Saturday. "If I hadn't been sick with E. coli by then, I probably would have picked it up over there."
Doctors and nurses in northern Germany have been working overtime for weeks since the crisis began May 2.

mweinstone
06-05-2011, 17:30
the single best way to enjoy the healthest foods on a long hike is to shop with absolutly zero concern .

carry eggs and freash milk and cream chease and balogna and ham and chips and soda and ice cream and raw salmon and soft searve ice cream and lettuce and tommatow and cans of whip cream and spray cheese and all manner of foods not made for backpacking.

the minute you constrain your feild of interest to dry or well packaged, orr shelf stable, or anything like that, fun runs away from you screeming.

if i see a carvel wally the whale ice cream cake on sale and i want it to be my dessert two nights down the trail in summer heat?
then i stuff that baby in my pack and hike off into the heat . and in two days when i pull that puppy from its bag and chill the melted goo in a spring and share it with my hikers? on that eve, they wail and screem like banshees happy with a kill.and on the morrow after such a feast? they laugh and brag that the ice cream soup was safe, fun, and way yummy if swished and melted. their aint no milk in wally! fun for all. and if i wand anything, on any day, i can. cause im matthewski. hi. i eat food not envelopes.

mweinstone
06-05-2011, 17:37
all foods picked from the trails environs are safe and free of jerks.feed heavily on ramps and dandys and milkweed and all the onions and garlic and wondefull freash organic clean rainwater washed plants and candys that grow for that reason. you must eat food from the ground and try to limit shelf food. for once removed from the ground, it becomes the enemy. and germophobs will die first so be nice to their pittyfull souls. fatphobes will follow them, be nice to them also. meatphobes will live but be sickly and omnivors will take the reigns of mans survival as it is ment.

Dogwood
06-05-2011, 19:19
The terrifying E. coli outbreak in Europe...

Perhaps, some folks are terrified or intensely fearful of the current E. coli outbreak in Germany at this organic farm. I don't have to be one of those people though! Perhaps, if I was in Germany right now I would take some prudent precautions with some types of food I consumed. But, I'm in the U.S. right now, not in Germany.

I think the article stated, ... "the unusually lethal outbreak." This particular scenario, according to what I'm getting from the article, is unusual! Not normal!

He added: "No more organic food for me for now."


That statement seems "unusually" biased, ignorant, and over reacting, because, to the best of my knowledge, E. coli can occur in non-organic foods and the E.coli contaminated food in Germany has only been associated with this one organic farm out of how many organic farms located throughout all of Germany so far? Like I said, if I was currently in Germany perhaps I would take greater steps to alter some of my dietary habits.

I'll approach it the same way as when choosing to eat seafood. Just because SOME fish taken from SOME areas or harvested from SOME areas CAN contain unacceptable levels of toxins, like PCBs or mercury for example, that doesn't mean I will stop eating ALL types of fish from ALL areas!

If you trace E. coli contamination to its source this is typically the vector:
'E. coli can be found in the feces of humans and livestock and can spread to produce through sloppy bathroom habits among farmworkers and through animal waste in fields and irrigation water. Organic farms tend to use more manure than other producers.'

I'll say it again, very likely poor agricultural practices were probably involved.

From what I've noticed, E. coli contaminated veggies occurs most often in veggies washed with E.coli contaminated water or processed or harvested with E. coli contaminated equipment, or handled by humans who transfer E. coli from themselves or from animals to food or food processing equipment. E. coli can occur in, both meat and non -meat, and both organic and non-organic foods. It can occur when foods, like veggies, fruits, nuts and seeds are watered with E .coli contaminated water. Especially susceptible can be foods that are processed with much water or contain/absorb much water, like sprouts and leafy greens, like spinach and lettuces.
I suppose, one of the things we should take from incidences like this is, "don't eat shart!"

Pedaling Fool
06-06-2011, 09:11
What's interesting is that people have been using manure since nearly the beginning of agriculture. So what's the history of e. coli outbreaks?? I'm still looking, but seems like the first reported outbreak was in 1982. What complicates this is all the different strains of the bacteria...

So what's considered "prudent precautions" is a relative thing. I remember as a kid helping with gardens getting truck loads of manure, which was considered gold back in the day -- I guess not so much anymore. Now they say you should only use manure that is completely composted, completely being the operative word. It is easy to have bits of not-completely composted manure (or anything for that matter) mixed in with fully composted matter.:-?

Some interesting facts about the ability of this bacteria to remain alive outside its host. http://www.about-ecoli.com/

Stx-producing E. coli organisms have several characteristics that make them so dangerous. They are hardy organisms that can survive several weeks on surfaces such as counter tops, and up to a year in some materials like compost. They have a very low infectious dose meaning that only a relatively small number of bacteria (fewer than 50) are needed “to set-up housekeeping” in a victim’s intestinal tract and cause infection.

Dogwood
06-06-2011, 22:00
I probably should positively know what is meant by completely composted manure because I'm a Landscape Designer and horticulturalist having used manures on many of my own projects and have worked with and on organic farms in the U.S. that used manures. I'm not positive but I think it has to do with the internal temp of the composting pile and how long that temp is maintained. Solar sterilization may be employed. There may be inoculants mixed in with commercialy sold manures to kill such bacteria too or manures may only be used from particular animals that are know to be E. coli free. I have used composted cow and chicken manure and bat guano in my own vegetable gardens and while working on other folk's vegetable gardens NEVER with any bacterial threats to humans and to human food supplies. It appears from the article, that this strain of E. coli, is particularly 'agressive' and 'super toxic.' The article also states that NO manure was used to grow the veggies at this farm!


What I prefer to call "black gold" is the clean composted leaf litter and chipped small branches served up at some county extension services or county and state DOT yards, usually for free to local rersidents. Sometimes, these places will even deliver minimum size required FREE truck loads of the stuff to residental homes! Great service and typically great product(you should check on the product first though to make sure it's FULLY composted so that it does not contain diseased material, garbage and uncomposted weed seeds) that more homeowners should take advantage of!

Pedaling Fool
06-07-2011, 07:20
The whole idea behind "completely composted" is to ensure there are no pathogens remining in the compost, not just e. coli, but everything. And yes temps, according to the experts is the way to do this. Really there is no standard, other than looking for black crumbly matter to determine if you have completely composted compost. (At least from what I can tell from everything I've read). http://www.ota.com/organic/foodsafety/manure.html

This is the problem I see, there is no standard practice to ensure the compost is free of pathogens; just because a batch was properly composted doesn't mean all parts of it was, in other words every bit of compost is not subjected to equal amounts of heat and other decomposition factors. You got the center of the pile, which is the hottest and it gets cooler the farther from the center until you get to the edge and there's really no heat. Simply turning a pile is not going to get every bit of material subjected to the required heat to kill all pathogens.

So what am I saying, I can see even more regulations coming down to ensure compost is completely composted, which will require certain standards that will cost money. You ever notice that all dairy products you buy, even organic products, are labled Ultra-Pasteurized. I think we're headed in that same direction with manure and compost.

I have a love-hate relationship with these stories. I love watching how people freak out, but I hate all the regulations/procedures they cause, many of which are way over the top.

Dogwood
06-07-2011, 17:49
I will share, that compost and manures, according to my business definitions, are not always exactly the same things. Compost, according to some in the horticultural field, is derived from composted organic matter and may contain living matter that's desirable, like beneficial microbes. In my practices on organic farms manures are typically seperated from other non-manure composted materials. That's typically ONE of the reasons why you notice manures bagged/baled/packaged separately and sold that way in stores. Go to your nearest Home Depot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, garden supply store, or nursery and peruse the shelves if you don't believe me. You don't typically notice manures mixed in with many other commercially available soils or soil amendment products, OR IF THEY ARE, it's my best guess, it's because the manures are sterilized or in some way cleaned of possibly potential levels of dangerous pathogens. ALL or ANY manures are not typically included in the main composting piles with things like leaves, sand, chipped twigs, coffee grinds, egg shells vegetable matter, plants, sterilized soils, etc but not including meat or oil realted products to the main copmposting pile.


Comercially sold compost, to the best of my knowledge, does not contain living pathogens or harmful bacteria or should not. Read again, carefully what I mentioned in my above post. You have the answers to some of your concerns in that post. I don't know how well you understand what I've said or your familiarity with some of the techniques I mentioned, but soil sterilization and commercial composting techniques, when done properly, and/or the addition of inooculants sterilizes the soil/compost/possibly manure.


This is the problem I see, there is no standard practice to ensure the compost is free of pathogens... - John Gault


I may be wrong, but I question the veracity of this statement. Do a little more research.

I will remind you, if this was such a HUGE problem, mass contamination of the human food supply would be happening on a MUCH larger scale!

Again, cross contamination related to improper hygiene and/or faulty agricultural practices, IMO, are often to blame for things like this!


The article states, that the marketed E. coli contaminated food, may have originated in already contaminated with E.coli sprout seeds which were purchased from, what I gather, is another seed source OR from E. coli contaminated water or equipment on this particular organic farm. Where the water and equipment came from or how or IF it plays a role in the E.coli outbreak is yet to be determined. The source of the E.coli MAY NOT DIRECTLY BE linked to compost or manure on this organic farm!


We're getting into some different things now and I don't wish to take this discussion, which might be interesting to you and me, too far in a hiking related website. PM or email me further if you woul like discussing your thoughts in much greater detail.

Dogwood
06-07-2011, 20:47
Just to add, IMO, as a much needed and worthy follow up:

It's incomplete and a quick to get it to the press/put it in print reporting attitude and a public that over reacts or jumps to assumption based conclusions that alarms me!


Now, after all the suspicions cast upon organic sprouts and cucumbers grown in Spain, and the possible detrimental economic repurcussions to those who grow amd market such produce, today we find that both, after careful SCIENTIFIC inquiry, they are NOT THE SOURCE OF the E. coli outbreak in Germany! I strongly suspect this will be a similiar case when we revisit those blanket statements like "No more organic food for me for now."

Pedaling Fool
06-07-2011, 21:00
I will share, that compost and manures, according to my business definitions, are not always exactly the same things. Compost, according to some in the horticultural field, is derived from composted organic matter and may contain living matter that's desirable, like beneficial microbes. In my practices on organic farms manures are typically seperated from other non-manure composted materials. That's typically ONE of the reasons why you notice manures bagged/baled/packaged separately and sold that way in stores. Go to your nearest Home Depot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, garden supply store, or nursery and peruse the shelves if you don't believe me. You don't typically notice manures mixed in with many other commercially available soils or soil amendment products, OR IF THEY ARE, it's my best guess, it's because the manures are sterilized or in some way cleaned of possibly potential levels of dangerous pathogens. ALL or ANY manures are not typically included in the main composting piles with things like leaves, sand, chipped twigs, coffee grinds, egg shells vegetable matter, plants, sterilized soils, etc but not including meat or oil realted products to the main copmposting pile.
I agree.


Comercially sold compost, to the best of my knowledge, does not contain living pathogens or harmful bacteria or should not. Read again, carefully what I mentioned in my above post. You have the answers to some of your concerns in that post. I don't know how well you understand what I've said or your familiarity with some of the techniques I mentioned, but soil sterilization and commercial composting techniques, when done properly, and/or the addition of inooculants sterilizes the soil/compost/possibly manure.
The point is we don’t know. It’s true I don’t know how exactly industry handles composted soil/manure. However, I’m fairly certain that they don’t test for all (if any) pathogens. I’m not faulting them for that; it’s just too difficult to do. (always willing to be proven wrong, especially when I assume). Even the healthiest soils can have pathogens, but that doesn’t mean people will get sick…other things must happen. You know even the most healthiest of soils can contain the bacteria Clostridium tetani (the cause of tetanus). However, a healthy soil keeps it in check with its own system of check and balances within the microbial community. We really don’t know much about soil biology, who knows what else is in there.

BTW, sterilizing the soil is something I'm curious about. Isn't that the problem with conventional farming; we've sterilized the soil so much that we have to feed the plants artificially manufactured nutrients. I mean what does sterilized soil mean? A plant's defense system has as much to do with a healthy soil full of living organisms as with its own immune system, without it you must take up that role in the form of sprays...


I will remind you, if this was such a HUGE problem, mass contamination of the human food supply would be happening on a MUCH larger scale!

Again, cross contamination related to improper hygiene and/or faulty agricultural practices, IMO, are often to blame for things like this!


The article states, that the marketed E. coli contaminated food, may have originated in already contaminated with E.coli sprout seeds which were purchased from, what I gather, is another seed source OR from E. coli contaminated water or equipment on this particular organic farm. Where the water and equipment came from or how or IF it plays a role in the E.coli outbreak is yet to be determined. The source of the E.coli MAY NOT DIRECTLY BE linked to compost or manure on this organic farm!

I agree and yes we don’t know what the real cause was, that’s what makes this so interesting. One thing to remember about this is that we’re talking about microbial life and in that world change happens quickly and that change can have great effect on everything else. This is not a concern as much as it is a curiosity -- I'm not saying it's a "HUGE problem". One more time -- I'm curious, it's just a subject I like:)


We're getting into some different things now and I don't wish to take this discussion, which might be interesting to you and me, too far in a hiking related website. PM or email me further if you woul like discussing your thoughts in much greater detail.
Can’t do that; my PM box is full, if you don’t want to talk about it then just don’t respond, won’t hurt my feelings – I’m always talking to myself.:D


BTW, speaking of a full PM box: To the person that emailed me to edit my post on another thread…sorry that’s an unauthorized action for me.:sun

Pedaling Fool
06-07-2011, 21:02
Just to add, IMO, as a much needed and worthy follow up:

It's incomplete and a quick to get it to the press/put it in print reporting attitude and a public that over reacts or jumps to assumption based conclusions that alarms me!


Now, after all the suspicions cast upon organic sprouts and cucumbers grown in Spain, and the possible detrimental economic repurcussions to those who grow amd market such produce, today we find that both, after careful SCIENTIFIC inquiry, they are NOT THE SOURCE OF the E. coli outbreak in Germany! I strongly suspect this will be a similiar case when we revisit those blanket statements like "No more organic food for me for now."
What no link, that's ok I'll go find it;)

Dogwood
06-07-2011, 21:46
Check the USA Today front page.

Even the healthiest soils can have pathogens, but that doesn’t mean people will get sick…other things must happen. You know even the most healthiest of soils can contain the bacteria Clostridium tetani (the cause of tetanus). However, a healthy soil keeps it in check with its own system of check and balances within the microbial community.... - John Gault

Absolutely. Excellent observations!

BTW, sterilizing the soil is something I'm curious about. Isn't that the problem with conventional farming; we've sterilized the soil so much that we have to feed the plants artificially manufactured nutrients.... A plant's defense system has as much to do with a healthy soil full of living organisms as with its own immune system, without it you must take up that role in the form of sprays... - John Gault

Yes. More excellent observations! But I will add, plant nutrients can be defined several ways to include a broader spectrum of related products and, both macro(N, P, K) and micro nutrients, can be offered and applied as "non-artificially manufactured"("non-synthetic") nutrients/products.

I like discussing topics with you John. You bring up a GREAT may valid pts or persectives, some of which I'm not seeing. I like that you question some things! I learn a great many things from the info and topics you share! I appreciate your intellectual curiosity and, obviously, enjoy discussing this topic. But, this is a hiking website, not a gardening or horticultural website and we are hi-jacking the thread with issues not particularly related to anything hiking.

Pedaling Fool
06-08-2011, 07:57
BTW, sterilizing the soil is something I'm curious about. Isn't that the problem with conventional farming; we've sterilized the soil so much that we have to feed the plants artificially manufactured nutrients.... A plant's defense system has as much to do with a healthy soil full of living organisms as with its own immune system, without it you must take up that role in the form of sprays... - John Gault

But I will add, plant nutrients can be defined several ways to include a broader spectrum of related products and, both macro(N, P, K) and micro nutrients, can be offered and applied as "non-artificially manufactured"("non-synthetic") nutrients/products.

Yes, it’s a complicated subject. But if you just look at one of those macro-nutrients (N) the plants need microbial life to “fix” it. Despite there being nitrogen all around us no plant, animal or fungus can process the stuff.

Live healthy soil fixes the nitrogen so plants can absorb it. However, in conventional farming we’ve basically made the soil inert through the use of pesticides/herbicides, therefore we must fix the nitrogen in a factory and feed it to the plants and in this process we’re having a big effect on the natural nitrogen cycle. That’s why I’m curious about the term “sterile soil/compost/manure”.


...we are hi-jacking the thread with issues not particularly related to anything hiking.
Look at the OP; it was asking to be hi-jacked:D


I think i might be spoiled...

Dogwood
06-08-2011, 18:21
John, you are getting into Plant Nutrition now. If you want to understand this on a deeper level, it quite possibly ALSO requires a deeper understanding of Botany, Horticulture, and Chemistry including Plant Physiology and Soil Science.


As much as I would thoroughly enjoy discussing these topics and sciences with you in much greater detail this is not the forum to do it.


I'm not going to go any further than mentioning these few things. I'll try to make this brief.


Don't confuse soil sterility with fertility. In my mind they are not the same. Soils free of pathogens or free of pathogens at harmful levels, in my mind, are not the same as in-fertile soils.


Plant nutrient uptake does not just occur below the soil level. It can occur above the soil level too. It can occur when no soil exists at all like: plants grown hydroponically or in water plants that are not permanently attached to anything solid via a root system. Think about this in relation to your above comments.


Generally, plants take up nutients by a process known as cation exchange, but This is not the entire story though!


In short, most of the world's soils contain enough fertility AND life for plants to grow! Soil, where plant life grows, is more alive and capable of supporting plant growth than you might currently realize. Plants are perhaps more adptable than you think.

I know my comments may not answer all your questions directly but I think you are bright enough, and if inqusitive enough, you will find that I just gave you some very big puzzle pieces that fit into making your puzzle a clearer picture.

Pedaling Fool
06-08-2011, 19:28
John, you are getting into Plant Nutrition now. If you want to understand this on a deeper level, it quite possibly ALSO requires a deeper understanding of Botany, Horticulture, and Chemistry including Plant Physiology and Soil Science.
I'm working on it.

It can occur when no soil exists at all like: plants grown hydroponically or in water plants that are not permanently attached to anything solid via a root system. Think about this in relation to your above comments.
I knew it, I knew it, I knew it, I knew you would bring up hydroponics.


Don't confuse soil sterility with fertility. In my mind they are not the same. Soils free of pathogens or free of pathogens at harmful levels, in my mind, are not the same as in-fertile soils...

In short, most of the world's soils contain enough fertility AND life for plants to grow! Soil, where plant life grows, is more alive and capable of supporting plant growth than you might currently realize. Plants are perhaps more adptable than you think.
I'm not talking about the world's soil; I'm talking about farming. I admitted I'm confused about what is meant by soil sterility. As for soil fertility that's another whole bag of worms you can either have soil fertility through man-made methods or natural, not sure where you're going with that...

.....and if inqusitive enough, you will find that I just gave you some very big puzzle pieces that fit into making your puzzle a clearer picture.
That's funny:D:):sun



As much as I would thoroughly enjoy discussing these topics and sciences with you in much greater detail this is not the forum to do it.
You keep saying that, yet you keep responding:confused: I have to admit I find it a little entertaining:D;)

Pedaling Fool
06-09-2011, 08:48
Now they're just really getting AFU over there, pretty interesting...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110608/ap_on_he_me/eu_contaminated_vegetables;_ylt=AsRMhC9JC.bx3NoDJ4 LYFIS9IxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTNoY2txNjRmBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMT EwNjA4L2V1X2NvbnRhbWluYXRlZF92ZWdldGFibGVzBGNjb2Rl A3NwZHRvcDUwMHBvb2wEY3BvcwMxBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl90b3 Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDY3VjdW1iZXJzZHJh


Cucumbers draw new attention in E. coli outbreak

BERLIN – Cucumbers were back on the radar of German health authorities Wednesday as the possible cause of an E. coli outbreak in Europe that has killed at least 26 people and sickened over 2,700 others.

Two weeks ago, investigators blamed cucumbers from Spain for the deadly outbreak and then later ruled them out as the source. Then, the focus shifted to sprouts from northern Germany, but none that were tested turned out to be contaminated with the bacteria strain blamed for the outbreak.

Now, suspicions have fallen on a cucumber of an unknown country origin that sickened a family in eastern Germany. The cucumber — the first food found to be contaminated with the strain that has sickened thousands — was in the family's compost, but there is no conclusive evidence that it's the source.

"It's unclear whether the cucumber infected the people, or the people the cucumber," said Holger Paech, the spokesman for Saxony Anhalt state's health ministry.

The father of the family had diarrhea, the mother was hospitalized for several days and their 22-year-old daughter is among about 700 people across Europe with a severe complication that can lead to kidney failure.

She has been hospitalized for almost two weeks.

"The family was sick," Paech said. "So, they could have contaminated the cucumber instead of the other way round."

There has been no reported evidence of humans contaminating vegetables, but the Federal Institute for Risk Assessment maintained that "the finding does not allow any conclusions" because the cucumber had been lying in the compost between May 19 and May 30.

Laboratory tests on other samples taken from their house and from shops where they usually buy their vegetables all tested negative for the bacteria, he added.

Consumers across Europe are shunning fruit and vegetables, and the German warning against eating cucumbers, tomatoes, lettuce and sprouts is still in place. EU farmers claim losses up to euro417 million ($611 million) a week as ripe produce rots in fields and warehouses.

The EU therefore increased its offer of compensation to farmers for the E. coli outbreak to euro210 million ($306 million), EU Farm Commissioner Dacian Ciolos said. A final decision will be made next week by EU member states.

Outside health experts and German lawmakers have strongly criticized the investigation in Germany, saying the infections should have been spotted much sooner and having state-by-state probes was hurting the search for a cause.

After authorities in Hamburg state had blamed Spanish cucumbers, Lower Saxony turned on sprouts which officials there say "is still the best lead we have."

But more tests came back negative Wednesday on sprout samples from an organic farm in the northern town of Bienenbuettel but the farm is still considered a possible source for the outbreak. German Agriculture Minister Ilse Aigner said eight clusters of patients — more than 50 infected people — can now be tracked to that farm.

"That means even if we have no (positive) sprout test results yet, we have indications based on tracking nutrition the affected people eat," she said. "We are even looking for more cases that can be linked to the farm."

In Madrid, Spanish farmers handed out 40 tons of fruit and vegetables to draw attention to their plight. People lined up for 100 meters along dozens of tables to snap up a wide and colorful variety of produce, including cherry tomatoes, lettuce, peppers, cucumbers and watermelons.

In China, authorities ordered stepped-up health inspections for travelers arriving from Germany to prevent the super-toxic strain from reaching its shores.

Fear of the E. coli outbreak also spread to Britain, where the national rowing team announced its withdrawal from the World Rowing Cup due to take place in Hamburg — the outbreak's epicenter — over the weekend of June 17-19.


Germany's national disease control center, the Robert Koch Institute, reported 300 more E. coli cases Wednesday, raising the total to 2,648. Another 100 E. coli cases are in other European countries and the United States.

Despite the new infections, German Health Minister Daniel Bahr said the overall trend showed fewer new cases of illness, and expressed cautious optimism.

"I cannot yet give an all-clear, but after an analysis of the numbers there's reason for hope," Bahr told ARD television.

The European Union health chief John Dalli also held an emergency meeting with German officials on the E. coli crisis but avoided publicly criticizing their efforts, saying the cucumber warning was "justified" based on the data Hamburg authorities had at the time.

He urged European countries to "work together, cooperate and share expertise to address this outbreak and bring it to an end as soon as possible."

"This is not the time for criticism and recriminations, but the time to focus our efforts at all levels in order to get to grips on this crisis," he said.
___

Dogwood
06-09-2011, 15:47
It was those damn cucumbers. I knew they were the culprit all along. And, I like cucmbers in a summer salad.

Pedaling Fool
06-10-2011, 09:44
It was those damn cucumbers. I knew they were the culprit all along. And, I like cucmbers in a summer salad.
Don't worry dude, it's safe now http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/25510397

Seems like they are blaming the sprouts after all and they've cleared all other veggies. :-? Hmmm, I wonder if money had anything to do with this:D;) http://www.theindependent.com/articles/2011/06/10/ap/headlines/eu_contaminated_vegetables.txt


An Excerpts:
Reinhard Burger, president of the Robert Koch Institute, Germany's national disease control center, said the pattern of the outbreak had produced enough evidence to draw that conclusion even though no tests of sprouts from an organic farm in Lower Saxony had come back positive for the E. coli strain behind the outbreak.


Hensel, however, said authorities were lifting the warning against eating cucumbers, tomatoes and lettuce. "Lettuce, tomatoes and cucumbers should be eaten again _ it is all healthy produce," he said.

Pedaling Fool
06-14-2011, 08:37
Interesting farming method http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13758936

Pedaling Fool
06-17-2011, 08:43
Total deaths so far 39 http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/death-toll-from-german-e-coli-outbreak-up-to-39-new-infections-waning/2011/06/16/AGj1L8WH_story.html?wprss=rss_world

Toll from German E. coli outbreak up to 39 dead, another 3,400 people infected

BERLIN — The death toll in Europe’s E. coli outbreak rose to 39 on Thursday, as Germany’s disease control center reported that one more patient died.

The Robert Koch Institute, however, said the number of new infections is continuing to tail off.

Thirty-eight people have now died in Germany and one in Sweden in the outbreak, which was traced last week to sprouts from a farm in northern Germany.

The disease control center says the number of reported infections in Germany now stands at 3,304, including 786 people who have developed a serious complication that can lead to kidney failure.

The World Health Organization says more than 100 people have been infected in 13 other European countries, Canada and the U.S.
Germany’s health minister has warned that although the outbreak is abating, more deaths are possible.

Authorities are still recommending that consumers do not eat any vegetable sprouts as they try to determine how the bacteria got onto the farm — whether through workers, in seeds or by some other means like contaminated water.



...And what's up with the sprouts http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110617/ap_on_re_eu/eu_contaminated_vegetables_1

THE HAGUE, Netherlands – Researchers say a strain of E. coli found last week on Dutch beet sprouts has not been seen before in the country and they have sent samples for further analysis at labs in Italy and Denmark.

The Dutch Food Safety Authority says nobody appears to have been sickened by the strain.

Health Minister Edith Schippers says the fresh round of tests will likely take weeks.

Friday's announcement came a day after Germany's disease control center said the death toll in Europe's outbreak of a separate strain of E. coli had risen to 39 after one more patient died. The Robert Koch Institute, however, says the number of new infections is continuing to tail off.

The killer strain has been traced to sprouts from an organic farm in a northern German village.

Pedaling Fool
06-23-2011, 08:27
Getting hard to find info, but here's some good stuff, especially the second link.... http://yourlife.usatoday.com/fitness-food/safety/story/2011/06/E-coli-outbreak-caused-by-mix-of-2-deadly-strains/48729896/1?csp=ylf

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1106483?query=featured_home#t=articleResults

BigRing
06-24-2011, 12:45
.....I won't hike behind anyone who has eaten ramps!

Also, cattail shoots in early summer. A great book to read is by the E. Gibbons (sp?) "Stalking the wild asparagus."

Pedaling Fool
06-25-2011, 10:20
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110625/wl_nm/us_france_ecoli;_ylt=AnSUmcEKeiF1HM1d7ZBhxIeoOrgF; _ylu=X3oDMTNhcm1qc2ZlBGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTEwNjI1L3VzX 2ZyYW5jZV9lY29saQRjY29kZQNyZG5iZXRvcDIwMHBvb2wEY3B vcwMxMARwb3MDMTAEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawNib 3JkZWF1eGVjb2w-

Bordeaux E. coli patients have same strain as in Germany

BORDEAUX, France (Reuters) – Two people suffering from E.coli infections in the French city of Bordeaux have the same strain as that which caused scores of deaths in Germany, French authorities said.

The French commerce ministry said it had ordered stores to suspend the sale of fenugreek, mustard and rocket seeds which the consumer safety authority believed had been supplied by British company Thompson & Morgan in the eastern town of Ipswich while a possible link to the illnesses was investigated.

"The link between the symptoms and consumption of these seeds has so far not been definitively established," the ministry said in a statement issued on Friday.

"According to information in the possession of the DGCCRF (consumer authority), the supplier is a British firm, Thompson & Morgan, based in Ipswich," it said.

While awaiting the results of analyses, the government had instructed the DGCCRF "to ask sellers of fenugreek, mustard and rocket seeds coming from supplier Thompson & Morgan to suspend the sale of these products without delay."

The company did not immediately respond to telephone and e-mail requests for comment.

Ten E.coli cases have been detected in Bordeaux and seven people were still hospitalized on Friday, said Doctor Joao Simoes, who heads the regional health agency.

Regional health official Patrick Rolland told journalists that initial tests showed that two of the patients had an E.coli strain identical to that which has caused nearly 40 deaths mostly in Germany.

Health authorities in Germany have linked the epidemic to contaminated bean sprouts and shoots from a German organic farm sold to consumers and restaurants for eating in salads.

Six of the people hospitalized in Bordeaux are known to have eaten such foods during a fair at a leisure center on June 8 in the Bordeaux suburb of Begles.

French health authorities have said there did not appear to be any link between the cases in Bordeaux and an outbreak last week of E.coli infections near Lille, in northern France, that made eight children ill.

Pedaling Fool
06-26-2011, 16:07
For a while now most sources have been listing the death toll at 39, including the link above in post #51. However, today I accidently came across this link which lists the number at 44, some list it at 43
:confused:
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2011/06/23/2072093/europes-e-coli-death-toll-increases.html

DamnYankee
06-26-2011, 18:01
I love veggies, but not any more http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13608396

As with any kind of produce WASH it, safe common sense, it doesn't matter if you bought it at a grocery store or picked it up along side the trail, if you clean the produce you virtually eliminate any risk, enjoy your veggies ;-)

Pedaling Fool
06-26-2011, 18:54
That's all I do is wash them with water. Although, I never use them special soaps or brushes....just too lazy:D

However, one day we may have another strain that can transit through the root system and contaminate the fruit/veggie internally:-? guess I should start training my immune system:)

Here's an article documenting it http://barfblog.foodsafety.ksu.edu/blog/139669/08/05/28/pathogens-produce-brief-review

Pedaling Fool
06-28-2011, 09:09
Still going up. What's curious is this statement: "The number of new infections has declined significantly over recent weeks but overall numbers are still rising -- due largely to delays in notification."

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9O47DE80.htm

E. coli death toll up to at least 47

Germany has reported another three deaths in its E. coli outbreak -- bringing the total to at least 47.

The Robert Koch Institute, Germany's disease control center, said Monday that 46 deaths have now been reported in the country. One person has died in Sweden, and officials say one death in the U.S. may be linked to the outbreak.

The number of new infections has declined significantly over recent weeks but overall numbers are still rising -- due largely to delays in notification.
The disease control center says 3,801 people have been reported sick in Germany. That includes 834 suffering from a complication that can lead to kidney failure.

A further 119 cases have been reported in 15 other countries.
The source has been traced to a sprout farm in northern Germany. It's unclear how the sprouts were contaminated.

Pedaling Fool
06-29-2011, 08:10
Actually the number is now at 48 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/E-coli-death-toll-rises-to-48-in-Germany/articleshow/9030018.cms



BERLIN: The death toll from an outbreak of a killer strain of E coli bacteria (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/bacteria) centred in Germany rose to at least 48 today, health authorities said.

All but one of the fatalities from enterohaemorrhagic E coli (EHEC) have been in Germany, with the other being a woman in Sweden (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Sweden) who had just returned from Germany.

The outbreak, blamed on organic vegetable sprouts grown in northern Germany, has left 3,901 people ill in Germany, 838 of them seriously, Germany's Robert Koch Institute (RKI) said.

The World Health Organisation (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/World-Health-Organisation) said on its website on Monday that 3,043 people have become sick in 16 countries, 877 of them seriously with kidney complaint haemolytic uraemic syndrome (HUS).

Pedaling Fool
06-30-2011, 09:07
http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/fs/food-disease/news/jun2911fenugreek-br.html


Egyptian fenugreek seeds suspected in E. coli outbreak

Jun 29, 2011 (CIDRAP News) – New trace-back investigations in German and French Escherichia coli outbreaks are pointing to two lots of fenugreek seeds that were imported from Egypt, according to the latest threat assessment from European officials.

Sprouts from Egyptian fenugreek seeds are suspected in both a cluster of French E coli O104:H4 illnesses and the large outbreak in Germany involving the same strain, the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) and the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) said in a risk assessment today. But the agencies cautioned that there is no lab evidence yet tying the seeds to the outbreaks.

The ECDC and the EFSA said they have urgently requested that the German-based company that imported the seeds help them track other customers who received fenugreek seeds from the two lots.

Officials suspect that Egyptian fenugreek seeds imported in 2009 are linked to the French E coli cluster and that a batch from 2010 is linked to the German outbreak. The ECDC identified the seed importer as AGA SAAT GMBH, based in Dusseldorf, Germany. It said a UK company that reportedly supplied the sprout seeds linked to the French cluster obtained the seeds from AGA SAAT GMBH.

So far investigators have not found a sprout connection to a Swedish E coli O104:H4 case reported yesterday, but the investigation is ongoing, the ECDC said. The patient, a man from southern Sweden, does not have a travel history to Germany and does not recall eating sprouts. Food safety experts have cautioned that sprout consumption can be hard to trace, because the item often appears inconspicuously in salads, sandwiches, and garnishes.

Warnings about sprout consumption should cover all sprouts, because seeds sold for sprouting are often sold as mixes, and cross-contamination could occur during repackaging, the ECDC said. The ECDC and the EFSA are urging consumers not to grow their own sprouts and to avoid eating sprouts unless they have been thoroughly cooked.

If the link between the French cluster and the German outbreak is confirmed, more E coli O104:H4 cases are expected in Europe, along with other countries that received the contaminated seeds, the ECDC warned. It urged clinicians to be on alert to quickly identify new E coli infections that might be part of clusters or the outbreak.

In the French cluster, 15 cases of bloody diarrhea have been identified so far, and 11 of the patients attended the same Jun 8 event where sprouts were served. Eight developed hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS), a potentially fatal kidney complication. Leftover seeds are being tested.

The ECDC said it has received reports of 32 more E coli infections, raising Europe's outbreak total to 4,055. No new HUS cases or deaths were reported, keeping those totals at 885 and 48, respectively,

See also:
Jun 29 ECDC risk assessment report (http://ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications/Publications/2011June29_RA_JOINT_EFSA_STEC_France.pdf)
Jun 29 ECDC outbreak update (http://ecdc.europa.eu/en/activities/sciadvice/Lists/ECDC Reviews/ECDC_DispForm.aspx?List=512ff74f-77d4-4ad8-b6d6-bf0f23083f30&ID=1124&RootFolder=%2Fen%2Factivities%2Fsciadvice%2FLists% 2FECDC Reviews)

Pedaling Fool
07-02-2011, 09:07
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/07/01/e-coli-death-toll-increases-to-50/




German authorities have reported another death in the European E. coli (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/health/diseases/e-coli-infection.htm#r_src=ramp) outbreak — bringing the total to 50.
The national disease control center said Friday 48 deaths have been reported in Germany (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/germany.htm#r_src=ramp), up from 47 a day earlier. One death in Sweden (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/sweden.htm#r_src=ramp) and another in the United States (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/u.s.htm#r_src=ramp) are linked to the outbreak, according to the World Health Organization (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/health/medicine/world-health-organization.htm#r_src=ramp).
A total of 3,999 people have now been reported ill in Germany, including 845 suffering from a complication that can lead to kidney failure (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/health/disorder-conditions/kidney-failure.htm#r_src=ramp). Another 122 cases have been reported in 16 other countries.
New infections have been declining for weeks but the total tally is still rising due largely to delays in notification.
European health experts warned Thursday that contaminated Egyptian fenugreek seeds are likely the source of the deadly outbreak.

harryfred
07-04-2011, 23:41
This time of year I carry a lot of fresh veggies. I know they contain water which is heavy but you lighten your pack quick as you eat. cucumbers are a favorite as are tomatoes. If I have the good tomatoes that came from a garden I hang them off my pack in a net bag. Same for some other more delicate fruit, like plums or peaches. any root vegetable like carrots potatoes or onions I think you could carry the whole trail. I've carried small melons for half a day make a real good supper. I freeze my water bladder the first night out. It will hold ice for over 24 hrs. OK its a very small piece. I keep my cucumbers, bag salad, green onions and what ever next to it. I have also bought a bag of ice at a resupply and filled my bladder and bottles offered the rest to other hikes or just dumped it its only a couple of bucks. The jewel boxes that stuff comes in in the produce section of the super market protects stuff just fine in the top of your pack. Broccoli and cauliflower carry well for a couple of days. most salad dressings are so full of salt sugar and vinegar they are fine for a few days without refrigeration. or just get the individual packs. One of the few times I will build a fire in warm weather is to roast fresh corn on the cob still in the husk.

Pedaling Fool
07-05-2011, 08:48
You should try dehydrating.

I also carry a lot of veggies, but I dehydrate them. Personally I think they're much better (most of them), not just because you can carry more due to the reduced weight/bulk, but because the water in them is gone which dilutes much of the taste. However, very important not to over dehydrate them nor to over cook them when mixing in with your meal. Tomatoes are especially good dehydrated and onions have a funny sweet taste.

Rasty
07-25-2011, 19:34
In my 20+ year career as a chef I have come to the conclusion that eating sprouts is very risky. The e-coli and salmonella risk is greater than any other vegetable. At least with chicken I can cook it. Sprouts are mostly pointless unless eaten raw or just warmed like some recipes using bean sprouts.

Pedaling Fool
07-25-2011, 19:49
In my 20+ year career as a chef I have come to the conclusion that eating sprouts is very risky. The e-coli and salmonella risk is greater than any other vegetable. At least with chicken I can cook it. Sprouts are mostly pointless unless eaten raw or just warmed like some recipes using bean sprouts.
That's the sense I get after reading how they're grown. Seems like just another fad to me, kind of like biointensive farming or one of its various offshoots...

Pedaling Fool
07-30-2011, 17:00
I've been having a problem with a "weed" in my yard. It has a very stocky stem and lays low to the ground. The other day I was reading about weeds and found that this "weed" I've been having problems can actually be thought of as a vegetable. Not only is it edible, but it's packed with nutrients. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portulaca_oleracea
Problem is, I'm so good at de-weeding that I have no more:mad: it's all in the compost pile, but I'm sure it'll comeback:)


Excerpt:
Purslane contains more omega-3 fatty acids (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acid) (alpha-linolenic acid (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Alpha-linolenic_acid) in particular[4] (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#cite_note-3)) than any other leafy vegetable (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Vegetable) plant. Simopoulos states that Purslane has 0.01 mg/g of eicosapentaenoic acid (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Eicosapentaenoic_acid) (EPA). This is an extraordinary amount of EPA for land based vegetable sources. EPA is an Omega-3 fatty acid normally found mostly in fish, some algae and flax seeds.[5] (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#cite_note-4) It also contains vitamins (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Vitamin) (mainly vitamin A (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Vitamin_A), vitamin C (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Vitamin_C), and some vitamin B (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Vitamin_B) and carotenoids (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Carotenoids)), as well as dietary minerals (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Dietary_mineral), such as magnesium (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Magnesium), calcium (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Calcium), potassium (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Potassium) and iron (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Iron). Also present are two types of betalain (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Betalain) alkaloid pigments, the reddish betacyanins (visible in the coloration of the stems) and the yellow betaxanthins (noticeable in the flowers and in the slight yellowish cast of the leaves). Both of these pigment types are potent antioxidants and have been found to have antimutagenic properties in laboratory studies.[6] (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#cite_note-5)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Portulaca_oleracea.JPG/800px-Portulaca_oleracea.JPG (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Portulaca_oleracea.JPG)

ALLEGHENY
07-31-2011, 10:59
I have been trying to eradicate this plant from my yard for ever.
Now that I know it's beneficial to other plants in my vegetable garden, I will control it less.
I went out and chomped on some today. I'll have to try some Greek food.

Thanks John G

Farr Away
08-01-2011, 15:37
I have been trying to eradicate this plant from my yard for ever.
Now that I know it's beneficial to other plants in my vegetable garden, I will control it less.
I went out and chomped on some today. I'll have to try some Greek food.

Thanks John G

So how does it taste? Is it worth seeking out?

-FA

ALLEGHENY
08-02-2011, 14:01
Raw tastes slightly bitter, some crunch to it.

WingedMonkey
08-02-2011, 14:58
So how does it taste? Is it worth seeking out?

-FA

Just because a plant is edible, doesn't always mean you wanna eat it. It's sap is more mucus like than aloe and somewhat bitter/sour. Nice for a few bites, I wouldn't make a meal of it.
:sun

Farr Away
08-02-2011, 16:36
Just because a plant is edible, doesn't always mean you wanna eat it. It's sap is more mucus like than aloe and somewhat bitter/sour. Nice for a few bites, I wouldn't make a meal of it.
:sun

Hence the question. I'm not sure I'd enjoy "mucus like" though, but who knows?

WingedMonkey
08-02-2011, 16:56
Hence the question. I'm not sure I'd enjoy "mucus like" though, but who knows?

LOL, Not sure that is the right word, how about "sticky" like a prickly pear cactus pad? Some people would say that about okra, but I love okra. If purslane is cooked longer (like 15 mins in salted water) it gets more spinach like.
Large amounts can have a laxative effect.

Pedaling Fool
08-02-2011, 17:23
Large amounts of vitually any veggie has a laxative effect. I know this because I eat tons of veggies. People that say, "you can eat all you want and not gain weight..." as if to say that you can't eat too much veggies is false. You can eat too much veggies, specifically you can eat too much fiber. Not fun and not good for you. Trust me I know...

Especially brussel sprouts, damn I love 'em, but I gotta be careful on how much I eat....

Pedaling Fool
08-11-2011, 08:36
I've been gardening now for only a couple years, each year I get just a little more serious, but don't really consider myself a "gardener" yet. However, I was surprised at how many of these traits I could relate to.

You Know You're Addicted to Gardening When...

Your neighbors recognize you in your pajamas,
rubber clogs and a cup of coffee.
You grab other people's banana peels, coffee grinds,
apple cores, etc. for your compost pile.
You have to wash your hair to get your fingernails clean.
All your neighbors come and ask you questions.
You know the temperature of your compost every day.
You buy a bigger truck so that you can haul more mulch.
You enjoy crushing Japanese beetles because you like the
sound that it makes.
Your boss makes "taking care of the office plants" an
official part of your job description.
Everything you touch turns to "fertilizer".
Your non-gardening spouse becomes conversant in
botanical names
You find yourself feeling leaves, flowers and trunks
of trees wherever you go, even at funerals
You dumpster-dive for discarded bulbs after commercial
landscapers remove them to plant annuals.
You plan vacation trips around the locations of botanical
gardens, arboreta, historic gardens, etc.
You sneak home a 7 foot Japanese Maple and wonder if your
spouse will notice.
When considering your budget, plants are more important
than groceries
You always carry a shovel, bottled water and a plastic bag
in your trunk as emergency tools.
You appreciate your Master Gardener badge more than your jewelry
You talk "dirt" at baseball practice.
You spend more time chopping your kitchen greens for the
compost pile than for cooking.
You like the smell of horse manure better than Estee Lauder.
You rejoice in rain...even after 10 straight days of it.
You have pride in how bad your hands look.
You have a decorative compost container on your kitchen counter.
You can give away plants easily, but compost is another thing.
Soil test results actually mean something.
You understand what IPM means and are happy about it
You'd rather go to a nursery to shop than a clothes store.
You know that Sevin is not a number
You take every single person who enters your house on a
"garden tour"
You look at your child's sandbox and see a raised bed.
You ask for tools for Christmas, Mother/Father's day, your
Birthday and any other occasion you can think of.
You can't bear to thin seedlings and throw them away.
You scold total strangers who don't take care of their
potted plants.
You know how many bags of fertilizer/potting soil,/mulch
your car will hold.
You drive around the neighborhood hoping to score extra bags
of leaves for your compost pile
Your preferred reading matter is seed catalogs
And last but not least:
You know that the four seasons are:
Planning the Garden
Preparing the Garden
Gardening
~and~
Preparing and Planning for the next Garden


-Author Unknown

ALLEGHENY
08-11-2011, 10:04
+1, lol http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon14.png

Pedaling Fool
08-25-2011, 12:58
I have been trying to eradicate this plant from my yard for ever.
Now that I know it's beneficial to other plants in my vegetable garden, I will control it less.
I went out and chomped on some today. I'll have to try some Greek food.

Thanks John G


So how does it taste? Is it worth seeking out?

-FA
Well, I got some purslane now. I've learned that when you pull them they have a remarkable capability to start producing seeds in massive amounts and the seed is very hardy. So by me pulling it and placing under the mulch I only planted more.

I cut away a few stems from one plant, brushed away the ants and mealy bugs and ate it, I did not find it heavy in mucus, it's simply a clear fluid. I ate it raw and I thought it was ok, probably be much better when I add it to salads and such. Definitely worth keeping in my garden based on the nutritional value.


WORD OF CAUTION -- There's a weed that looks similar to purslane (Spurge weed) it's not as succulent, stems more stringy in appearance and when you cut the stem you see a milky sap as opposed to purslane which has a clear sap. Spurge is suppose to be a noxious weed. I also have this weed growing.

I also have another weed that looks similar to purslane, but still trying to identify this weed. It does have a clear sap, but the stem, although succulent looking has hair-like growth on the stem.

Pedaling Fool
11-25-2011, 21:23
Beyond Purslane...

I think I discovered another "weed" in my garden that may be a possible veggie souce. It's scientific name is: Cyperus esculentus, but common names are (chufa sedge, yellow nutsedge, tigernut sedge, earth almond). It looks much like a grass, but is NOT a grass, more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_esculentus


Much like purslane it's very prolific.


And some pics of it:

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m484/76gunner/Weed Identification/009.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m484/76gunner/Weed Identification/008.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m484/76gunner/Weed Identification/007.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

JAK
11-26-2011, 00:16
Alot of herbs can be eaten in fair quantity, like up to 1 oz of herbs in total per day.
Dried Parsley is a good example. You can buy in practical sizes relatively cheap.
Amazingly nutritious. Solves you vitamin A, C, iron, and calcium all in one. Great in soup.
You can also usually find dried vegetables in most bulk food stores or spice and herb aisles.

Pedaling Fool
11-26-2011, 08:45
Alot of herbs can be eaten in fair quantity, like up to 1 oz of herbs in total per day.
Dried Parsley is a good example. You can buy in practical sizes relatively cheap.
Amazingly nutritious. Solves you vitamin A, C, iron, and calcium all in one. Great in soup.
You can also usually find dried vegetables in most bulk food stores or spice and herb aisles.Or I could just go out in my garden and pull a couple out;). I got some herbs also, but I bought those. One of my favorite is in the mint family and the pollinators go absolutely crazy over it when blooming. http://www.whiteflowerfarm.com/20970-product.html

Mountain Mike
11-29-2011, 15:44
I have a blueberry bush, but the damn birds keep eating them:mad:. I'm now growing another type of wild berry bushes (two) near it and they eat those, but still eating my blueberries...seems like they're just eating more. Kind of like taxes -- give more, consume more...

Try putting out a container of water by the blueberries. Birds often eat the berries for their water content.

Mike2012
11-29-2011, 16:58
I've been gardening now for only a couple years, each year I get just a little more serious, but don't really consider myself a "gardener" yet. However, I was surprised at how many of these traits I could relate to.

You Know You're Addicted to Gardening When...

Your neighbors recognize you in your pajamas,
rubber clogs and a cup of coffee.
You grab other people's banana peels, coffee grinds,
apple cores, etc. for your compost pile.
You have to wash your hair to get your fingernails clean.
All your neighbors come and ask you questions.
You know the temperature of your compost every day.
You buy a bigger truck so that you can haul more mulch.
You enjoy crushing Japanese beetles because you like the
sound that it makes.
Your boss makes "taking care of the office plants" an
official part of your job description.
Everything you touch turns to "fertilizer".
Your non-gardening spouse becomes conversant in
botanical names
You find yourself feeling leaves, flowers and trunks
of trees wherever you go, even at funerals
You dumpster-dive for discarded bulbs after commercial
landscapers remove them to plant annuals.
You plan vacation trips around the locations of botanical
gardens, arboreta, historic gardens, etc.
You sneak home a 7 foot Japanese Maple and wonder if your
spouse will notice.
When considering your budget, plants are more important
than groceries
You always carry a shovel, bottled water and a plastic bag
in your trunk as emergency tools.
You appreciate your Master Gardener badge more than your jewelry
You talk "dirt" at baseball practice.
You spend more time chopping your kitchen greens for the
compost pile than for cooking.
You like the smell of horse manure better than Estee Lauder.
You rejoice in rain...even after 10 straight days of it.
You have pride in how bad your hands look.
You have a decorative compost container on your kitchen counter.
You can give away plants easily, but compost is another thing.
Soil test results actually mean something.
You understand what IPM means and are happy about it
You'd rather go to a nursery to shop than a clothes store.
You know that Sevin is not a number
You take every single person who enters your house on a
"garden tour"
You look at your child's sandbox and see a raised bed.
You ask for tools for Christmas, Mother/Father's day, your
Birthday and any other occasion you can think of.
You can't bear to thin seedlings and throw them away.
You scold total strangers who don't take care of their
potted plants.
You know how many bags of fertilizer/potting soil,/mulch
your car will hold.
You drive around the neighborhood hoping to score extra bags
of leaves for your compost pile
Your preferred reading matter is seed catalogs
And last but not least:
You know that the four seasons are:
Planning the Garden
Preparing the Garden
Gardening
~and~
Preparing and Planning for the next Garden


-Author Unknown


2012 will be my first summer in 20 years without a garden. I will be growing me instead.

Pedaling Fool
01-08-2012, 14:45
It's incredible how many "weeds" are actually very beneficial as a food source. I've found some more since the Purslane and Nutgrass, but my latest one (I'm still trying to confirm) is one in which is a very prolific "weed", but seems like that is now a good thing -- it's called the Stachys Floridana -- checkout this video, I think this is the "weed" I've not really tried to identify, until recently, but was always impressed with its resilence and I've seen those tubers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAudL109GOg

Demeter
01-22-2012, 04:26
wild carrot (daucus carota - I will check spelling and correct if wrong). The tops look nearly identical to domesticated carrot, and, later in the year we come to know the flower as "Queen Anne's Lace". I'll Google it to see if I can find a picture.
Here is more info than you'll ever need:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=yfp-t-701&va=daucus+carota

Basically, I'd use the root to flavor a vegetable stew, but it's too woody to eat (though you can chew on it for some flavor and a few vitamins and minerals).

I am an avid forager, enjoying "trail nibbles" on every walk and hike, and attending classes and a wild food weekend in W VA recently. I would NEVER recommend eating wild foods to people who don't spend a lot of time identifying the plant 100% positively several times before consuming. Wild carrot is often confused with Water Hemlock which is DEADLY poisonous. The two can grow right next to one another, and I have had to use a magnifying glass to positively i.d. the edible carrot from the poisonous hemlock. BTW, in the Mid-Atlantic, the common name of "Queen Anne's Lace" is used interchangeably between the two plants....

That being said, on a recent AT dayhike I noted a ton of garlic mustard, sheep sorrel, wood sorrel, chickweed, mints, lady's thumb, and of course, wild carrot :-)

Pedaling Fool
01-22-2012, 09:03
It turns out that many, many plants are edible, even stinging nettle is edible. Identifiying can be an issue, but thus far I've identified enough "weeds" in my yard to make a salad, some of which you mentioned.

What's funny is many of these so called weeds are termed noxious weeds by the USDA and others. A good example is the Stachys Floridana http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=STFL4


When researching plants I've come to realize that the term "Noxious Weed" is useless when I see it listed, doesn't mean a thing to me.

TOMP
01-22-2012, 09:43
Dandelions are great and suprisingly high in vitamins and nutrients. Easy to identify too.

Pedaling Fool
01-22-2012, 10:12
There are also some other plants related to the dandelion which look similar to them and are also edible, but I think there's also some in this family not edible, but would have to verify. An example of an edible look alike is the sow thistle. Another interesting thing about the dandelions is that they have a milky sap, which is usually a sign to stay away, but there are exceptions.

Sow Thistle: This thing has multiple heads and stands about 3ft tall

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m484/76gunner/Weed Identification/009-1.jpg


And this is the same plant a month earlier when it looked more like a dandelion (only ~10 inches tall and a single head)

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m484/76gunner/Weed Identification/018.jpg

TOMP
01-22-2012, 10:38
Sticker weeds hurt, dandelions dont. I guess I shouldnt assume that its easy for everyone to identify but for me I have seen enough to do it with out an issue.

Pedaling Fool
01-22-2012, 11:47
Sticker weeds hurt, dandelions dont. I guess I shouldnt assume that its easy for everyone to identify but for me I have seen enough to do it with out an issue.Yeah, I'm new to this and this is one of my screw-ups, primarily because I just assumed it was a dandelion when it first sprouted since the flower looks basically the same. Yes, I know the breakdown of ASSUME
:D

The leaves are prickly, but still edible.

Demeter
01-22-2012, 20:31
You are actually passing up a plant that surpasses dandelion in flavor, IMHO. Sow thistle, when harvested at the appropriate time, has none of the bitter flavor of dandelion. The Sonchus genus as a whole are edible. Everyone hiking andspot interested in. Wild greenscarrot would benefit from a couple classes and books by the likes of Sam Thayer, John Kallas, and "Wildman" Steve Brill. Too bulky to bring on a long hike, but the fieldguides can be sorely lacking and inaccurate.

Demeter
01-22-2012, 20:33
Um, you can tell my phone is possessed by quick type demons :-)

TOMP
01-22-2012, 21:27
You are actually passing up a plant that surpasses dandelion in flavor, IMHO.

Bitter doesnt equate to bad IMO, just look at hops. Sure there are a lot of other good edibles in the wild. I just thought dandelions would be an easy spot and abundant enough to make a meal of for the average person. I would never recommend forging to a person thats just reading out of a book and making a guess. Even experienced survialists have trouble with some plants and mushrooms.

TOMP
01-22-2012, 21:36
Also when foraging, not forging, please consider the local animal population. I personally think that there are enough dandelions to go around but I find the hoards of blueberry pickers to be a nuisance. Feel free to try one but dont gorge yourself. Ever see bear poo in the NJ area, it is mainly berries, they cant resupply you can. Be considerate. (hunt them if you want when you can but starving them is another story)

Pedaling Fool
01-24-2012, 10:54
WRT foraging on the Applalachian, it's something I've thought of since my questioning what exactly constitues a weed, which is kind of what led me to this point. I'm sure there are a lot of plants out there that are edible, but I have a suspicion that finding edible plants is much easier in society than out in the woods (speaking in general terms, of course). A lot of these "weeds" are invasive and seems to follow us around. Not saying there are no invasive plants out in the woods, but I'm thinking they're much more concentrated, thus easier to find in city-type locations than out in the woods.

I still think foraging during a hike would be very difficult and not worth the effort, although it would be interesting past time, but many of the plants just don't provide the calories needed, but they are packed with vital vitamins/nutrients. Identifying edible plants in a survival situation is extremely valuable, but for use to supplement diet during a hike would probably require a huge use of time.