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birchy
05-30-2011, 17:23
Attention All Hikers on the A.T.

I would like to inform the hiking community that the TRAIL POLICE from the P.A.T.C. have informed me that I cannot leave jugs of ICE WATER at trailheads on hot summer days. According to Chris Firme (PATC) this is considered to be littering and he removed the jug of ICE water but left the chair and the shirt that was covering it. If any true outdoorsman sees this as offensive and a gross abuse of some perceived power that some members of the trail patrol think they have. I ask all to e-mail the PATC a voice our opinion. By the way there will no longer be any cold water or drinks provided by me at any place on the A.T. because I do not want to go to PRISON,,,,

grayfox
05-30-2011, 17:38
No good deed goes unpunished....

Majortrauma
05-30-2011, 17:49
There HAS to be more to this. I do believe birchy but for a PATC memver to do this there has to be something else going on unless he was suffering from heat stroke or is disabled in some other way.
Screw 'em. They have to catch you first Birchy AND prove it was you.

moldy
05-30-2011, 17:52
This is exactly why we should feel free to ignore anything the PATC has to say about anything.

emerald
05-30-2011, 17:54
Someone needs to decide what's acceptable and if everyone made these decisions on their own there would likely be no agreement or consistency on anything. Whining about how trail clubs manage the trail on Whiteblaze and posting in a manner that encourages people to do as they please without regarding the wishes of trail managers is unlikely to result in any improvement.

Many today seem to think eyeryone ought to be able to do as they wish and with enough tolerance for the wishes of others it should somehow be possible. It's not possible on the Appalachian Trail or anywhere else either.

jrwiesz
05-30-2011, 18:00
Trash or magic?

I've seen that somewhere around here before.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4248&highlight=leave+bible+shelter

The Heat is on! :sun

birchy
05-30-2011, 18:01
There is nothing more to it. I decided that since it was hot and it was about 7 miles between water sources I would set a jug of ice water at the Shippensburg Rd trail head. I actually sat there for a while with it but had to run back to my house. When I returned to get the jug it was gone and a note told me that I was littering. Ironically they did not take the chair and the towel that I had placed over the jug to keep it cold. The note said that there was plenty of water at the shelters.... yeah, but it does not have ice in it..... lol

birchy
05-30-2011, 18:02
The PATC trail patrol are not police, they have no police powers, and in fact it was THEFT to take my jug of water that I paid for.

jrwiesz
05-30-2011, 18:07
Now that, may be a slippery slope.:-?

nufsaid
05-30-2011, 18:10
Didn't we just experience a week ago a week of rain almost every day?

Someone needs to decide what's acceptable and if everyone made these decisions on their own there would likely be no agreement or consistency on anything. Whining about how trail clubs manage the trail on Whiteblaze and posting in a manner that encourages people to do as they please disregarding of the wishes of trail managers is unlikely to result in any improvement.

Many today seem to think eyeryone ought to be able to do as they wish and with enough tolerance for the wishes of others it should somehow be possible. It's not possible on the Appalachian Trail or anywhere else either.

Emerald, I agree. We should all bow to our dear leader. Any divergence should be squashed post haste.

emerald
05-30-2011, 18:10
Trash or magic?

No, sorry, it's not the great debate all over again. It's a simple question of PATC policy and they don't require input from Whiteblaze.

Tinker
05-30-2011, 18:13
The PATC trail patrol are not police, they have no police powers, and in fact it was THEFT to take my jug of water that I paid for.

Still have the PATC note and the receipt for the water? Tell your story to the local LEO's and see if you might have a case. :-?

Chomp09
05-30-2011, 18:15
Thank you for the attempt at a good deed and I mean no offense by this (because there have been times when passing a jug of water at a trail head has been a life saver) but really, seven miles? I'm pretty sure hikers can make due without the additional water source. In my eyes, the down side of people leaving trail magic unsupervised is the potential for trash that doesn't get picked up when the food/water/magic is gone.

Lyle
05-30-2011, 18:16
As a trail maintainer my self (not the AT), I can sympathize with the maintainers. As a hiker who often finds myself out on very hot, sweaty days, I can also appreciate the gesture of nice COLD water being available where it's not expected.

Seems this is a pretty simple problem. When the maintainer saw the stash, was the water still cold, was the ice still present? Then it hadn't been there all that long and could still easily be classified as a welcome site.

On the other hand, if the containers were empty or tepid, and the "protective covers" were in disarray, then it was obviously trash and should/would be removed.

I'm sure it was near a road crossing, so, as the maintainer, if you leave it, just make a mental note of it and check on it the next time you or someone are in the area.

Problem solved and some hikers get a nice treat, the one doing the kind act gets a chance to follow through, and no harm done.

birchy
05-30-2011, 18:19
Well if you lived within 500 feet of the A.T. for half you life I bet you would have picked up every piece of trash like I do. The A.T. is very dear to my heart, and so are the people that use it. If you do not like trail magic it is probably because you never received any. I can see the trail head from my house, CAN YOU

birchy
05-30-2011, 18:22
I know I may sound mad, but I,m more concerned about the usurpation of some perceived authority. A trail patrol member is there to educate, not police, where are the HANDCUFFS

mweinstone
05-30-2011, 18:32
i find most people to be godless devil worshipers. so who does what on any given day is less conserning to me than say, where will i get food. im presently shaky and dieing of lack of everything. so your arguing over a bottle of magic and its accosiated implications as they affect you, mean you have alot of food on your not so shakey hands to waste time talkin crap. lets see one of you take the hard knocks of trail cops beating your water up with a small amount of grace yes? and then move on to how your not all going to be in my sorry ass position soon. that would be constructive. you see my dears. your time is up for this sort of thing. matthewski is the cannary in the coal mine and im keelin over here. might wanna check in on africa or burmma and see how they feel about your whole take on life. when the first groups of early humans organized enough to allow thinkers and musicians and art, it wasnt done so we could waste all that effort. make use of your presious lives. they dry and fly away so soon. i love you all and hope the best for you. goodby.

Lyle
05-30-2011, 18:34
I know I may sound mad, but I,m more concerned about the usurpation of some perceived authority. A trail patrol member is there to educate, not police, where are the HANDCUFFS

Well, as a maintainer, I can attest. If a certain amount of "Policing" isn't done by the maintainers, then NONE will be done. Trash accumulation is a big problem. I have personally had to remove piles of beer/pop cans, bottles, roofing shingles, etc. In fact, just last week I paid to dispose of an air conditioner that I dragged off of the North Country Trail a while back.

If I understand it right, the AT is very lucky, they have exactly ONE ranger assigned to policing it's length. Most trails don't have any. Sometimes some positions of "authority" have to just be assumed if anything is to be done.

That said, as I indicated in my previous post, a little common sense and accommodation can go a long way toward reducing ruffled feathers on both sides.

Thanks for the thought on leaving the water. Maybe it would help if the next time (if you decide to try again) leave a note clearly stating when you will be back to remove and "police the area" yourself. Might make the maintainer feel a bit better about leaving it there. Just a thought.

emerald
05-30-2011, 18:39
When PATC's trail patrol saw the cache, was the water still cold and ice still present? If so, it hadn't been there all that long and could easily be classified as a welcome sight [by hikers].

On the other hand, if the containers were empty or tepid, and the "protective covers" were in disarray, then it was obviously trash and should/would be removed.

Who is to say it would have remained cold long enough for a hiker to benefit and why should that be a consideration when deciding whether to remove it or not? Even had it not yet reached ambient temperature, it would have met your requirement for removal within a few hours.

Just because so-called trail magic is unexpected and may be appreciated by hikers doesn't mean it ought to be permitted. Hikers should expect and plan to obtain drinking water from natural and permanent, developed sources on the Appalachian Trail, except in towns.

If hikers want the kinds of services available in towns, they should go there to partake of them.


I can see the trail head from my house, CAN YOU? If you lived within 500 feet of the A.T. for half your life, I bet you would have picked up every piece of trash like I do. The A.T. is very dear to my heart, and so are the people that use it.

How is this quote relevant to a discussion about water caches and why should living near the AT or picking up trash at trailheads result in PATC or any other trail club making exceptions to its policies for such individuals?


If you do not like trail magic it is probably because you never received any.

According to ATC's definition of trail magic, all hikers are the recipients of trail magic. My postion has more to do with so-called trail angels refusing to work with trail clubs and feeling they are entitled to make up their own rules and ought to be accorded some sort of special status or treatment.

WingedMonkey
05-30-2011, 18:42
Seems to me you are a self appointed trail maintainer. Is there a reason you can't work well with others? Who do you think should decide what "your" section of trail needs or doesn't need?
Lately you have referred to a new hostel as "my hostel". I'm not sure how you came by that title either.
There is no such thing as "trail police". You need to be more precise about what the person realy was, even Ridge Runners have no enforcement capabilities.
So I would suggest, now that you have also appointed yourself "trail angel" that you work with the local club to see how they can best use your services.
Keep putting the water jugs out, either you will wear them out of they will wear you out. Or maybe you just need a place to sit and meet people.

:sun

birchy
05-30-2011, 18:42
Yeah, you right. However, I have been doing this for 18 years, that is how long I have lived within eyesight of this trail, and it seems in the past few years, some people, often from far away come to police something that does not need policing because we have been doing it for half our lives. Maybe someone could suggest an area that needs policing and i'll send them that way

sheepdog
05-30-2011, 18:47
No, sorry, it's not the great debate all over again. It's a simple question of policy PATC needs to resolve and they don't require input from Whiteblaze.
What if we would like to give input anyway??

mweinstone
05-30-2011, 18:51
emerald, your veiws are offensive to those of us who love the trail. you are very far off the mark. and you come accross really with a bad attitude. and you sound like you never go hiking and dont like it. and if i were you, i would open my mind. you seen small minded and closed minded. with respect, not anger, i say this to your face. you really dont know dukky about anything. it seems you are a hudge troll with an education. you allways present the opinions of , i dont know, an old stuck up hate filled hiker hater. my tru opinion here.

emerald
05-30-2011, 18:55
You might consider sending PATC an email if you feel you have been wronged in some way or have a suggestion. I wouldn't expect anyone from their organization to post or read what's been posted and would think they would have better things to do with their time.

I would add no one has posted any written policy regarding NPS's, ATC's or PATC's position on water caches or gives the appearance of having any concern for what they might be or their rationale for them.

nufsaid
05-30-2011, 18:58
i find most people to be godless devil worshipers. so who does what on any given day is less conserning to me than say, where will i get food. im presently shaky and dieing of lack of everything. so your arguing over a bottle of magic and its accosiated implications as they affect you, mean you have alot of food on your not so shakey hands to waste time talkin crap. lets see one of you take the hard knocks of trail cops beating your water up with a small amount of grace yes? and then move on to how your not all going to be in my sorry ass position soon. that would be constructive. you see my dears. your time is up for this sort of thing. matthewski is the cannary in the coal mine and im keelin over here. might wanna check in on africa or burmma and see how they feel about your whole take on life. when the first groups of early humans organized enough to allow thinkers and musicians and art, it wasnt done so we could waste all that effort. make use of your presious lives. they dry and fly away so soon. i love you all and hope the best for you. goodby.

I seriously do not wish to offend you. My hope is that you will reach out and get the help you are seeking.

Red Hat
05-30-2011, 19:01
Last year on my thru, I was always glad to see water containers. Unfortunately, they were too often empty. This year, I find that I am having to move empty containers because the well-intentioned forget to come back for them. When they are forgotten, they become litter. Same with those coolers, sodas, etc. Nice to find, but trash when left. Sorry, gotta agree with the PATC here.

mweinstone
05-30-2011, 19:09
seems picking up litter has become something to brag about and wear as a badge of honor on puffed up chests. no, picking up litter is for your own reasons, or its not picking up, its crapping on the litterbugs for your exersize. best to pick up litter, and not talk about it. trust me. oh, and nufsaid, your not welcome in my camp.

mweinstone
05-30-2011, 19:13
trail magic of all kinds are welcome on the AT and enjoyed by all. littering on the AT is seems to be unwelcomed and not enjoyed by any. this is a good balance needing no rules or oversight. just a bunch of passionate diverse opinions here, very healhy. also not in need of oversight.

modiyooch
05-30-2011, 19:16
Not to slam PA, but I felt the trailheads were trashy to begin with. Sadly, it wasn't from hikers or trail magic. Birchy may just be caught up in a bigger problem.

mweinstone
05-30-2011, 19:16
okay nuf said, your welcome at my camp. it was the seeking help thing. maby you said that weird. im not seeking help.

Toolshed
05-30-2011, 19:20
So here is my thought. Perhaps the PATC maintainer didn't realize you live just down the road and thought it had been there much longer.
Perhaps once you guys meet, there will be a no harm, no foul rule for that particular crossing I would think they would appreciate having someone knowledgeable so close to the TH.
I can see both sides on the TM. Not to be offending, but I really don't think we have to have stuff for THers every few miles or so, especially so close to PGF. But perhaps you could leave ice cold water in a cooler on your porch. Have it advertised in the companion or something similar. Surely for ice cold water on a hot day, I would walk an extra 500 feet.

Hooch
05-30-2011, 19:25
emerald, your veiws are offensive to those of us who love the trail. you are very far off the mark. and you come accross really with a bad attitude. and you sound like you never go hiking and dont like it. and if i were you, i would open my mind. you seen small minded and closed minded. with respect, not anger, i say this to your face. you really dont know dukky about anything. it seems you are a hudge troll with an education. you allways present the opinions of , i dont know, an old stuck up hate filled hiker hater. my tru opinion here.Don't mind ol' Shades of Gray (emerald). :rolleyes:

Lyle
05-30-2011, 19:30
Some folks think that common sense and applying rules with some thought is too difficult. They want black and white, no room for gray. That does make enforcing easier, but catches up a lot of relatively innocent folks into the web of "No room for discussion".

Schools have tried this approach with disastrous consequences. The Sex offenders lists are also rightfully having people take a second look due to the extreme nature of "no gray area".

My point is simply, if there was still ice in the water, it COULD have easily been left for the enjoyment of some hikers. It appears the OP had no intention of not coming back to clean up, but if he hadn't and the "trash" did legitimately become trash, then it should be removed. Why do some folks find common sense so difficult?

nufsaid
05-30-2011, 19:40
No, sorry, it's not the great debate all over again. It's a simple question of PATC policy and they don't require input from Whiteblaze.

Expressed like a true Statist.

Toli
05-30-2011, 19:42
No, sorry, it's not the great debate all over again. It's a simple question of PATC policy and they don't require input from Whiteblaze.

By that same logic, neither would anyone here require your input... Don't you think???

k.reynolds70
05-30-2011, 19:47
This is exactly why we should feel free to ignore anything the PATC has to say about anything.

As a proud PATC member, I feel you are exactly right.

They do a good job of maintaining the corridors, and their cabins are great, BUT I feel that they are overlooking this good deed done as some type of infraction.

But yeah-- they seem to have always had the "holier than thou" modus operandi.
In March I got to finally go and visit the headquarters in Vienna, VA...the gentlemen that showed us around was especially nice, informative, and helpful.

But I encourage you to keep leaving the water; it's a kind gesture, and most importantly--there is nothing they can do to you:cool:

Blissful
05-30-2011, 19:55
I know hikers in NY rely on water in jugs when there is none to be had. I was thankful for it on my SOBO as there was no water for miles and it was hot.

Though not sure how much ice water in jugs will hold up in hot weather anyway, left unattended. You'd be better to sit in your car at the road crossing and offer a drink, which I know would be much appreciated. I know the PATC in PA pride themselves very much on the trail. Talked to a caretaker and could hear and see it. They do a great job

birchy
05-30-2011, 19:57
Thanks.... K. REYNOLDS from Virginia, I thought that I was the only one to see the forest for the trees. As a member of the PATC, I enjoy the rewards from the hard work we all put into the trails, but lets leave the politics to Washington and the policing to PA DCNR or the NPS. PS... I have the note, and will upload it to Facebook so the threat is clear to all

leaftye
05-30-2011, 20:17
There is nothing more to it. I decided that since it was hot and it was about 7 miles between water sources I would set a jug of ice water at the Shippensburg Rd trail head. I actually sat there for a while with it but had to run back to my house. When I returned to get the jug it was gone and a note told me that I was littering. Ironically they did not take the chair and the towel that I had placed over the jug to keep it cold. The note said that there was plenty of water at the shelters.... yeah, but it does not have ice in it..... lol

It's nice for you to want to provide ice cold water for hikers, but come on, it's only 7 miles.

Lone Wolf
05-30-2011, 20:22
It's nice for you to want to provide ice cold water for hikers, but come on, it's only 7 miles.

plus there's plenty of water and road crossings on the AT. folks just don't carry much any more cuz it weighs too much. i've never counted on jugs and coolers at roads. i took responsibility for myself

emerald
05-30-2011, 20:22
The important general policy discussion on this topic occurred long ago and ATC wrote a position paper to guide those who insist upon providing so-called trail magic. Unfortunately, the redesign of their website has resulted in much useful information becoming unavailable.

I would think common sense would lead one to inquire with local trail maintaining clubs about their related policies. The more local clubs do to clarify their expectations and the more consistent they are in implimenting them, the fewer misunderstandings are apt to result.

Even people who may claim to be affiliated with PATC surely realize they can't have it both ways, not even when trolling online.

weary
05-30-2011, 21:37
Attention All Hikers on the A.T.

I would like to inform the hiking community that the TRAIL POLICE from the P.A.T.C. have informed me that I cannot leave jugs of ICE WATER at trailheads on hot summer days. According to Chris Firme (PATC) this is considered to be littering and he removed the jug of ICE water but left the chair and the shirt that was covering it. If any true outdoorsman sees this as offensive and a gross abuse of some perceived power that some members of the trail patrol think they have. I ask all to e-mail the PATC a voice our opinion. By the way there will no longer be any cold water or drinks provided by me at any place on the A.T. because I do not want to go to PRISON,,,,
Okay. For starters, you are in no danger of going to prison. Some trail maintainer simply informed you of a non-enforcible rule that has been in place for decades, i.e. stuff left unattended on the trail is litter.

I was told this when I took over as a trail maintainer 4 + decades ago. I've been reminded of this again and again ever since. Chris Firme I'm sure wanted to remove all the litter you had left. Probably there was only so much he could carry out on one trip.

This is a long narrow trail, stretching 2,000 + miles. People leave all kinds of stuff along this trail. The thousands of volunteer maintainers can't be charged with deciding which is valuable, and which isn't. Hikers rather are charged with making those decisions and carrying in everything they are likely to need, and carrying out everything they don't need.

No other policy makes sense. Ice water certainly is appreciated by some hikers. Some hiker or other may appreciate everything found along the trail. But the fact is 99 percent of stuff that people leave "to be helpful" ends up having to be carried out by maintainers as garbage.

Yes, occasionally, a warm jacket left behind on a hot summer day, is valuable, to someone on a fall trip. But more likely the jacket will end up as a nest for shelter mice, which eventually will be carried out by a maintainer.

Every maintainer of sections easilly reached by roads and well-meaning trail magic purveyors deal with this again and again.

Trail magic which fails to appreciate these basic facts, are providing magic, but not the good kind. Their magic is best described as PITAS. (pain in the anal sections)

restless
05-30-2011, 22:10
Reading thru this thread, it seems that there is an attitude developing within the trail community by some of it's members. That attitude is one that holds in total disregard what is best for the trail as a whole and only sees as acceptable what benefits "me". Trail magic, while appreciated when it occurs, more often results in litter left on the trail, unless the provider is around for the whole event. Birchy, while you may take offense to what the PATC overseer did by removing your "magic", it was plain and simple, abandoned trash left in the woods to be carried away by animals or carried out by some person. I find it somewhat surprising that you took offense at this. Your avatar shows you as being a trail maintainer and I'm sure you know as I do, the problem with trash, not just along the roadsides, but also in the backcountry. You could have taken the water with you, as well as the chair and towel, and simply brought it back with you when you returned. In that manner, your trail magic would have been able to continue unhindered. I also find your attitude towards PATC, or any other trail maintaining organization bothersome. I assume that as a trail maintainer, you are involved with the PATC. If not, I would encourage you to become involved, if nothing else as a volunteer, especially if they have responsibility for the section of trail you claim to be maintaining. It seems that it is becoming a hobby on this site to bash various clubs and at times even ATC or the NPS. The truth is, is that behind each one of these organisations is a solid volunteer base that tirelessly put in many hours each year to keep the trail in great shape. And Birchy, I would say that neither you, nor anyone else here on WB, should do anything to undermine the efforts of these volunteers. If we can't appreciate the efforts put forth by these volunteers, whether we agree with their actions or not, perhaps then we should find another trail....or another hobby. ' Nuf said.

Cookerhiker
05-30-2011, 22:15
This is exactly why we should feel free to ignore anything the PATC has to say about anything.

The PATC does more for the Trail than you could even dream of in 100 years.:(

k.reynolds70
05-30-2011, 22:43
Cookerhiker is right!

PATC has done wonderful things for not just the trail, but people's lives.

I wonder if Moldy has ever had some great times at a PATC cabin..?

Bucketfoot
05-30-2011, 22:47
Amen to what cookerhiker said. many hike the trail but how many do the work to make sure the trail continues to even exist. Thank you to every trail maintaining organization!

Many Walks
05-30-2011, 22:58
We always carry plenty of water, but when we went through PA it was so dry several water sources were no longer running. If we hadn't come upon some of these water caches we would have been in a real hurt. The extremely nice local folks would leave water jugs at the trail head and there was absolutely no other trash around there, which indicated these good people came back to refill the jugs and kept the area clean. One man and his daughter even hiked miles to a shelter each night with water so hikers would have some. We very much appreciated all of this and wished we knew who to thank at the time.


Birchy, if we got water you left, we give you a huge THANK YOU for watching out for hikers.


In general, rules based on common sense can be helpful, but rules intended to control every situation based on one narrow perspective will always miss the mark in some way. I'm against leaving anything that can become trash in the woods, shelters or privies. I see no issue with someone providing water for thirsty hikers at a trailhead, especially when they clean up trash. This is a really nice gesture that should be appreciated and not smacked down by a blanket policy.


If I was the PATC member that came upon Birchy's setup I believe I would have waited around awhile to talk about what was going on. If that didn't work I would have left everything with my phone number so we could discuss it. In the end, no harm no foul and I believe PATC might even see value in someone watching over the trailhead. Yes, Trail Maintainers and volunteers do a tremendous amount of work and do a lot of good for the trail, which should be appreciated. I also believe there are a lot of other good folks who do a lot to support the trail and provide good will to both the AT and the hiking community. These folks do the good deeds anonymously and are never recognized for their effort, but should be equally appreciated.

Skyline
05-30-2011, 23:58
Birchy, instead of slamming PATC and one of its volunteers on a public website, why don't you become a PATC volunteer yourself? Your location so close to the AT makes you a perfect candidate. Then you will be able to see the other side. You'll meet some of the people you are ranting against, and you may even become friends.

But most of all, you will learn how you can best help the Trail and the hikers who use it. You may even find a better way to supply hikers with ice water.

It's called a win/win.

Wolf - 23000
05-31-2011, 03:39
Lyle,

First let me say thank you for your hard work as a trail maintainer. It is a thankless job especially not working on the AT.


I can see your point about trail litter because it is extremely annoying for an official or non-official maintainer to have to take out someone else trash. More than just the act of carrying out the weight, it is aggravating to know that you are doing extra work because someone was too lazy to carry out their own trash.


With that said, birchy represent what many trail angle have done over the years - lending a helping hand to many long distance hikers. In my years on the trail as both a hikers and unofficial as a part time trail helper for a couple of years, all trail helpers that I know of will collect trash around the area. It is like a small area that becomes adopted.



Years ago the ATC had some policy that really needed to be changed. Thankfully some pressure was put on them to update their policy for the better. Having enough water on a hot day can become a safety issue. It sucks being on a hot day and out of water. It also shows that there really are good people left in the world that would do something to help others out of the goodness of heart. Maybe the PATC needs some pressure put on them as well.

Wolf

birchy
05-31-2011, 03:51
WOW... I'm surprised at the varying opinions which this thread has produced... God bless AMERICA. For all those that actually got the point..THANK YOU. For all those who only saw this for what they wanted, well you know. First! The PATC does do an excellent job, however, some members believe that they have a right to make policy. The good lord teaches us to be thoughtful and kind to others, and that is the primary policy in life. I walk this trail everyday, I live within eyesight of this trail everyday, I interact with hikers everyday. That my dear friends has been one of the most fulfilling aspects of my backwoods life. Trust in this, my trail magic, and my love for this trail will not change over one incident. However, what is changing is my attitude about the people who claim to protect this trail. When a trail patrol member from another state comes 75 miles for 1 day out a month, and tries to change or interfere with the way thinks have been here on this mountain for decades, then YES... I do take some offense, but he had just as much right to take the water jugs as I did in leaving them. I promise you this, I will be here doing what I do long after many of my critics are gone.... GOD BLESS....and HAPPY TRAILS

d.o.c
05-31-2011, 07:27
Well if you lived within 500 feet of the A.T. for half you life I bet you would have picked up every piece of trash like I do. The A.T. is very dear to my heart, and so are the people that use it. If you do not like trail magic it is probably because you never received any. I can see the trail head from my house, CAN YOU
yes and i agree i think this fancy shirtd PATC dude was haven him self a lil bit of a power trip to me...... or he filld his water bottles up and was justifing taking all the water for himself....... i leave stuff at trail heads and clean up after the fact to..... i think the PATC was wrong here..

Migrating Bird
05-31-2011, 09:25
I agree totally with Wolf's statement above.

Additionally, if the well intentioned trail maintainer saw the jug of water as trash then whatever he left his phone number on is also trash and should be considered littering un-less written in the dirt or with sticks & rocks? Strikes me as a power trip, he is stupid or just plain mean. Why leave the chair & towel? Remove all or none. Does this mean "anything" left un-attended, regardless of how long is to be considered trash and is subject to removal? With the weather this weekend and all the "non-prepared" hikers out on the trail, this water could have been a real life saver. It is my understanding that the AT was not established for the sole use by experienced, long distance hikers with a higher tendency to manage their water needs.

If the OP has been doing this for many years and the maintainer knew his section then the maintainer should have had the knowledge that this was not litter. Taking the water is more a kin to stealing IMO.

Cookerhiker
05-31-2011, 09:53
plus there's plenty of water and road crossings on the AT. folks just don't carry much any more cuz it weighs too much. i've never counted on jugs and coolers at roads. i took responsibility for myself

Excellent point Wolf. If someone can't make it 7 miles between water sources because they choose to bring only one small bottle to save weight, let them live with the consequences.

d.o.c
05-31-2011, 09:55
the PATC guy really should have moniterd it if it was there for a while then get it outherwise he was just bein kind of rude.. there is currently some magic near boblets gap if its not gone soon and is empty i will get it if its not aready been snagd but i doubt that jug was empty when the guy took it and left the note.. and since their is a chair there and towel what made the PATC dude think it wouldnt be cleand up?

sarman
05-31-2011, 10:09
SOME ridgerunners have a better than thou attitude. It CAN come with the territory. I was one 32 years ago on the Glenwood Ranger District. I just spent the weekend doing trail magic in SNP's Loft Mtn campground. Put signs up on the AT. When I went out to take them down Sunday night, someone had removed one from the concrete AT marker. Yes, I know I was not supposed to put it there.

Was a great weekend. At least two dozen hikers and three dozen meals. Nine actually spent a night at our camp.

sarman
05-31-2011, 10:17
Oh yeah, I'm a life member of PATC. Keep doing trial magic, birchy.

restless
05-31-2011, 10:18
SOME ridgerunners have a better than thou attitude. It CAN come with the territory. I was one 32 years ago on the Glenwood Ranger District. I just spent the weekend doing trail magic in SNP's Loft Mtn campground. Put signs up on the AT. When I went out to take them down Sunday night, someone had removed one from the concrete AT marker. Yes, I know I was not supposed to put it there.

Was a great weekend. At least two dozen hikers and three dozen meals. Nine actually spent a night at our camp.

And the ridgerunners, caretakers, trail overseers,__________, are the ones who are wrong for removing things that aren't supposed to be there in the first place? Quitcherwhining. If something is placed or left where it shouldn't be to begin with, there should be no expectation for it to be left there. Ever heard of "Leave No Trace"? Trail magic is not exempt.

sarman
05-31-2011, 10:20
Oh, and I just finished Damascus to Waynesboro three weeks ago. Trail Magic was my favorite experience by far. Nothing more than fried chicken, sodas, chips, and snacks.

sarman
05-31-2011, 10:23
was not whining. was only stating a fact with no attitude. and will keep doing responsible trail magic. sorry if you don't like.

sarman
05-31-2011, 10:26
And the ridgerunners, caretakers, trail overseers,__________, are the ones who are wrong for removing things that aren't supposed to be there in the first place? Quitcherwhining. If something is placed or left where it shouldn't be to begin with, there should be no expectation for it to be left there. Ever heard of "Leave No Trace"? Trail magic is not exempt.

I rest my case

Panzer1
05-31-2011, 11:13
If your on the trail and need water, its not liter.
If your on white blaze its liter.

Panzer

leaftye
05-31-2011, 11:23
If your on the trail and need water, its not liter.
If your on white blaze its liter.

Panzer

I prefer to think in terms of fluid ounces instead of liters.

Panzer1
05-31-2011, 11:28
If your on the trail and need water, its not liter.
If your on white blaze its liter.

Panzer

OOPS :o

If your on the trail and need water, its not litter.
If your on white blaze its litter.

Panzer

Lyle
05-31-2011, 11:35
OOPS :o

If your on the trail and need water, its not litter.
If your on white blaze its litter.

Panzer


Or, it could be:

If you're on the trail and need water, it's liter.
If you're on White Blaze, it's litter.

:)

weary
05-31-2011, 11:35
..... Years ago the ATC had some policy that really needed to be changed. Thankfully some pressure was put on them to update their policy for the better. Having enough water on a hot day can become a safety issue. It sucks being on a hot day and out of water. It also shows that there really are good people left in the world that would do something to help others out of the goodness of heart. Maybe the PATC needs some pressure put on them as well. Wolf
The second edition of the "Appalachian Trail Fieldbook," published in 2003 by the AppaLACHIAN Trail Conservancy, is the bible for trail maintainers.

Among the "basic maintenance tasks" is "pick up and pack out litter along the trail and at overnight areas...." (see page 21.) The message is emphasized on page 43, "Remove all litter on each work trip."

And again on Page 45: "Litter encourages hikers to leave more litter. All trash should be packed out and a 'carry in/carry out' policy implemented. A clean site is more likely to stay clean."

And on page 46: "Litter is the bane of Trail maintenance and management -- one of the most discouraging signs of hiker inexperience or thoughtlessness. But few things are more satisfying than restoring a littered area to its pristine condition.... Don't allow litter to remain along the AT or its facilities."

There's more in the pocket-sized, 96-page manual, but you get the idea. MATC provides copies to all its maintainers, and I assume other maintaining clubs and PATC do also. Others can buy copies from the ATC Trail Store by opening up its web site.

sarman
05-31-2011, 12:24
I do know that some shelter overseers leave jugs of water in shelters. Is that littering, restless? It's not LNT.

Lone Wolf
05-31-2011, 12:28
who the hell would drink out of an open jug anyway? no way i would. if you get to a road and need water that bad, start walking the road to a house or store, etc

Pedaling Fool
05-31-2011, 12:40
I've often wondered when we would hear of a person getting sick from tainted water left on the trail; it seemed only a matter of time. I've also wondered about people following others on these social networks and tracking them down, but I thought the tainted water trick would happen before that:-?

Jim Adams
05-31-2011, 12:53
I've often wondered when we would hear of a person getting sick from tainted water left on the trail; it seemed only a matter of time. I've also wondered about people following others on these social networks and tracking them down, but I thought the tainted water trick would happen before that:-?

If you are worried about "tainted" water or drinking from an open jug then don't even think about hiking the PCT or the CDT. You can't survive some areas on those trails w/o a water cache.

Lots of closed minded lack of common sense on this thread.
I praise all of the trail maintainers out there and thank them for their work however, removing a jug WITH water in it is stupid!

birchy, next time take about 10 of the filled water jugs, lace them all together with a piece of nylon cord and tie them to a tree. Instant NON-LITTER. The empties won't blow away and will remain in 1 spot so that clean up is easy and obviously shows that it is a MAINTAINED CACHE.

Don't pay any attention to the idiots on here that think that Pennsylvania is over flowing with water.:rolleyes:

geek

weary
05-31-2011, 12:55
The basic policy is simple. Hikers should carry everything they need for hiking the trail. And carry out stuff they no longer need. Nothing should be left along the trail for use by other hikers. Most of the stuff left for hikers ends up as trash, tons of which are carried out by maintainers or other hikers each year.

Pedaling Fool
05-31-2011, 13:12
If you are worried about "tainted" water or drinking from an open jug then don't even think about hiking the PCT or the CDT. You can't survive some areas on those trails w/o a water cache.

Lots of closed minded lack of common sense on this thread.
I praise all of the trail maintainers out there and thank them for their work however, removing a jug WITH water in it is stupid!

birchy, next time take about 10 of the filled water jugs, lace them all together with a piece of nylon cord and tie them to a tree. Instant NON-LITTER. The empties won't blow away and will remain in 1 spot so that clean up is easy and obviously shows that it is a MAINTAINED CACHE.

Don't pay any attention to the idiots on here that think that Pennsylvania is over flowing with water.:rolleyes:

geek
Just a thought that I've had since my first time thru that area (2006), so I never drank from them jugs. No being closed-minded, just practical; there may be a shortage of water thru Pa, but there's no shortage of a$$holes everywhere, including Pa. Now who's being closed-minded:cool:

BTW, I took offense to your remarks; I may lack common sense, but I'm not closed-minded:mad:




:D

leaftye
05-31-2011, 13:19
Don't pay any attention to the idiots on here that think that Pennsylvania is over flowing with water.:rolleyes:

geek

I see you didn't pay attention to birchy's second post in which he states that it's 7 miles between water sources. If you can't carry enough water to walk a mere 7 miles, then you really shouldn't be doing more than day hikes. In a city park.

I'll make a big assumption that birchy did not feel that there's a lack of water, but wanted to provide a nice cold refreshing drink on that hot day. Not because it was necessary, but because hikers would appreciate it. If that's true, little was lost when the water was taken away. Except for the hikers with entitlement issues, hikers didn't lose anything.

Jim Adams
05-31-2011, 13:22
[QUOTE=john gault;1166622]Just a thought that I've had since my first time thru that area (2006), so I never drank from them jugs. No being closed-minded, just practical; there may be a shortage of water thru Pa, but there's no shortage of a$$holes everywhere, including Pa. Now who's being closed-minded:cool:

BTW, I took offense to your remarks; I may lack common sense, but I'm not closed-minded:mad:]

Sorry that you took offense but I was referring to those on here that don't think extra water is needed in Pa. On my thru in 2002, a very dry year, there were two stretches in Pa. without water...1 was 30 miles, the other 37 miles....hoped every step of the way that there would be water jugs at the road crossings...walked to the closest house when there were no water jugs.
1990 there were jugs of water at the Pawling, NY Shelter placed there by the local maintainer due to dried up sources....got to meet the guy, nice fellow.

geek

RGB
05-31-2011, 13:55
Keep doing what you're doing. I think I speak on the behalf of the majority of hikers that ice cold water is a very welcome gesture. I've been picking up litter long enough to know that people aren't going to stop littering and that this was an unnecessary measure to prevent it.

mweinstone
05-31-2011, 14:11
people are doomed. they have no lives. they argu about arguing about arguing. they rant rants about ranters ranting. people are week and small. i have lost faith in people. how many of you care more about others than yourselves? who even belives thats sane? who has any belife system at all? raise your hand. we have become dead. their will be a breif innermission before the end of the world. i recomend shutting up and praying for normality to return. it did live here once ya know. back in those days? we gathered round and spoke of grand things like love and children and god and marrage and the future and goodness. nowadays? we sit shoulding strangers . we have a should for each and every thing. you should not should folks so much. let them fail and learn. stop hovering over folks shoulding them to death. we are governed, moderated, sickened by the food and water. who even trusts the words comming from our own mouths? not me. i know im incapable of anything but sin. this is my only hope. and who told me so.

Lone Wolf
05-31-2011, 14:15
people are doomed. they have no lives. they argu about arguing about arguing. they rant rants about ranters ranting. people are week and small. i have lost faith in people. how many of you care more about others than yourselves? who even belives thats sane? who has any belife system at all? raise your hand. we have become dead. their will be a breif innermission before the end of the world. i recomend shutting up and praying for normality to return. it did live here once ya know. back in those days? we gathered round and spoke of grand things like love and children and god and marrage and the future and goodness. nowadays? we sit shoulding strangers . we have a should for each and every thing. you should not should folks so much. let them fail and learn. stop hovering over folks shoulding them to death. we are governed, moderated, sickened by the food and water. who even trusts the words comming from our own mouths? not me. i know im incapable of anything but sin. this is my only hope. and who told me so.that's all well and good. just don't leave jugs unattended at road crossings

snorz
05-31-2011, 14:19
I agree with birchy,nice to see magic occasionally. I also pick up litter at some shelters .If I find an empty water jug, it is not too hard to crush and pack out. Dont we all do that?

leaftye
05-31-2011, 14:24
birchy, next time take about 10 of the filled water jugs, lace them all together with a piece of nylon cord and tie them to a tree. Instant NON-LITTER. The empties won't blow away and will remain in 1 spot so that clean up is easy and obviously shows that it is a MAINTAINED CACHE.

That's not a bad idea. If he had his chair out there at the time, it'd be even better to tie it to that because then it'd be obvious that the bottles weren't going to become litter.

weary
05-31-2011, 14:27
Keep doing what you're doing. I think I speak on the behalf of the majority of hikers that ice cold water is a very welcome gesture. I've been picking up litter long enough to know that people aren't going to stop littering and that this was an unnecessary measure to prevent it.
Well I agree that many will welcome jugs of ice cold water. Many would also welcome a paved trail, free food at every shelter, and free shuttles that would make carrying a pack unnecessary.

But some find that among the pleasures of backpacking is the sense of being self sufficient in a challenging environment. We few go to the trail to partially escape artifacts of civilization.

The trail shouldn't necessarily cater to the majority. The primary recreation of the majority is their big screen televisions. A few still walk the trails providing they are well marked, lack roots and rocks, and are populated with "angels" carrying goodies.

And there remains a tiny enclave of walkers who hope to find tiny outposts of wildness here and there. We should, perhaps, leave little corners of wildness, as long as there is still a tiny minority that appreciates a natural trail unpopulated by hiker feeds and jugs of ice water.

restless
05-31-2011, 14:32
If you can't hike without trail magic and leftover watter bottles, methinks you should go home. But then, what am I saying? A lot of people can't even hike without their cell phones and iPad's. So much for the wilderness ethic.

sarman
05-31-2011, 14:48
And the ridgerunners, caretakers, trail overseers,__________, are the ones who are wrong for removing things that aren't supposed to be there in the first place? Quitcherwhining. If something is placed or left where it shouldn't be to begin with, there should be no expectation for it to be left there. Ever heard of "Leave No Trace"? Trail magic is not exempt.


If you can't hike without trail magic and leftover watter bottles, methinks you should go home. But then, what am I saying? A lot of people can't even hike without their cell phones and iPad's. So much for the wilderness ethic.

the holier than thou attitude I mentioned earlier.

Lone Wolf
05-31-2011, 14:50
the holier than thou attitude I mentioned earlier.

restless is spot on

restless
05-31-2011, 14:52
the holier than thou attitude I mentioned earlier.

If by "holier than thou" you mean that I don't want to see trash left unattended on the trail and that I think a lot of hikers have a messed up sense of entitlement, than yes...I'm holier than thou.

max patch
05-31-2011, 15:00
If you are worried about "tainted" water or drinking from an open jug then don't even think about hiking the PCT or the CDT. You can't survive some areas on those trails w/o a water cache.



Other than some short sections - nothing over 30 miles - I haven't hiked the PCT or CDT. However, I read a book about thru hiking the PCT back in the day when the hikers left at least one area carrying 50 pounds of water. So I suspect if you wanted to hike the PCT without a cache you could do it. Like I said, based on a book I read. Agree or disagree?

Jim Adams
05-31-2011, 15:22
Other than some short sections - nothing over 30 miles - I haven't hiked the PCT or CDT. However, I read a book about thru hiking the PCT back in the day when the hikers left at least one area carrying 50 pounds of water. So I suspect if you wanted to hike the PCT without a cache you could do it. Like I said, based on a book I read. Agree or disagree?
Hiked 1000 miles of the PCT...no you can't hike the southern part w/o water caches. I had 8 liters at the most but that is alot of weight on top of a 35lb. pack

geek

Jim Adams
05-31-2011, 15:51
I see you didn't pay attention to birchy's second post in which he states that it's 7 miles between water sources. If you can't carry enough water to walk a mere 7 miles, then you really shouldn't be doing more than day hikes. In a city park.


It's 96* here today in Pa. Yes, the water sources are 7 miles apart...that doesn't mean they are flowing or exsist today. Leave the water.
geek

Lone Wolf
05-31-2011, 15:52
It's 96* here today in Pa. Yes, the water sources are 7 miles apart...that doesn't mean they are flowing or exsist today. Leave the water.
geek
it's a choice to be out there. not a need. plan accordingly

mweinstone
05-31-2011, 16:04
ah to be a trailcop. imagine the bribes and stash possibilitys. man,...to be a trailcop on the take would be sweet. first thing id do is hunt down baltimore jack and bust his ass hard. prolly have to drum up some chump charges, hes kinda sweet and dosnt break laws. but id kick his ass for fun. cause i could. oxoxoxmatty?

Lyle
05-31-2011, 16:15
I agree folks shouldn't be counting on this water. Especially in a year as wet as this one has been, and this early in the year. It is a nice gesture when you find it though.

The AT, particularly in PA is NOT a wilderness trail, not even close. Leaving a jug of water is not destroying the wilderness experience. You can get down the mountain to a house or business if necessary. My understanding though, is that the ATC frowns on hikers pestering homeowners for water.

I have hiked late in the summer, during a very hot stretch, when I did make use of a cache of water left by a kind sole. It was at the Bake Oven Knob Shelter. All three of the springs were bone dry, it was 96 degrees out. No, I was not at risk for succumbing to dehydration. But it sure was a pleasure to find that water cache. I ended up hiking on to the next shelter north, filling some of the cache bottles at that spring, then hoofing them back to Bake Oven on my way back to my car. We divided the water among the hikers there making a dry camp. It was much appreciated. They wouldn't have died either, but would have been less than comfortable.

Panzer1
05-31-2011, 16:22
terminology question
true or false

jugs of water = trash (T/F)
jugs of water = water(T/F)

Panzer

Panzer1
05-31-2011, 16:28
It would be a good day to find jug of water/trash on the trail.

Panzer

http://www.weather.com/outlook/weather-news/news/articles/record-heat-tracker-tue-wed-thu_2011-05-30

mweinstone
05-31-2011, 16:29
"My understanding though, is that the ATC frowns on hikers pestering homeowners for water. "

this is whats wrong. a drunk with power organizations frowns being responded to at all. no . i wont be careing. and ill knock when the mood strikes me. if that makes me a hiker unwelcome, then screw the atc.

mweinstone
05-31-2011, 16:37
our trail is being over handled by handelers who are not welcome by this hiker. you do all realize that without any oversight whatso ever, and with only un organized volenteers unpaid, and with no government money or any sort of rule of law, that if the trail was left to its own demise, that it would be a thousand times more fun and better in each and every single way. wait, none of you know that. and the reason is because you all belive in building things up and protecting them with laws and maintaining them in a way that satisfies the groupe concensus. but thats all fine to a point. we passed that point. now we are looking at the simple equation of ruination by trampelling. when the governments of the world fall in a month or two, and money and innernet dont exist, then you wont be doing much talking about magic vs litter. and why not/ because it will have been the simple things, like talking in these ways, that will be reconized as what brought us all down. once you overide nature and decide to have 7 billion babies, your done. without allowing nature to rule, by tammeing it, it dies. then us. and finally, our high ideals.

Tennessee Viking
05-31-2011, 16:41
Depending on the local maintaining club, water caches for thru hikers are welcomed and sometimes not.

Some clubs will only allow caches when they are located at roadside at major road crossings for easy clean-up.

In addition to the litter rule, some clubs are wary because caches can be seen as possible prank opportunity and can be easily tainted.

Just contact the local AT club, and ask if it is allowed and what spots might be need water.

mweinstone
05-31-2011, 16:44
how many of you actually belive that in say,...3 years, life will still be mostly like now? and who welcoms the destruction of what we have? i do. had the trail not been mr benten mckeys idea, had no funding ever been secured. had bob peoples and miss janet and restless never been born,....do you belive no trail would exist? a trail would or wouldnt but it would have been one that could last forever had it been created in a world without burokrosy and foolishness. you see my dears, burakrosy and foolishness are what nature gets rid of and prevents when allowed to be. but tammed nature does what ever you want. right up to the point whee youve used it all up too quick and wrongly. then we die.

Dogwood
05-31-2011, 17:11
... it was about 7 miles between water sources- Birchy

I understand your good intentions Birchy. Nothing wrong with that. However, SOMETIMES, with those good intentions, one of the results of water caches and trail magic is trash being left behind, although not saying this is the situation with your water cache or trail magic.

LOL. I wish it was only 7 miles between water on some of my hikes! It doesn't seem all that far apart to me between water sources.

PennyPincher
05-31-2011, 17:18
I for one, have at times, been caught in a position where despite my best planning, I have been short of water. Not dangerously short, but uncomfortably short. Short enough that I knew my decisions and attitude were suffering but I could carry on to the next watering hole. Asssuming that watering hole would be available. Along with running short of water while hiking, I notice I will eat less since most/all of my food requires/needs water (including a simple builder's bar). If I found a jug of water I would be much appreciative.

I think if the OP wants to continue doing what he/she does, then so be it. Possibly create a sign that lets others know you will be back to clean up any trash left behind would be good. That would remove the questions of it being litter.

Someone also suggested you contact the local maintaining club. I agree. Then you could let them know what you are doing and that you will be responsible for cleaning up after and leave them your contact info, just in case. they can then pass it on to the individual maintainers to leave the water cache in place.

keep up the magic.

LDog
05-31-2011, 20:49
that's all well and good. just don't leave jugs unattended at road crossings

Bwa, ha, ha, ha, ha!

LDog
05-31-2011, 20:50
our trail is being over handled by handelers who are not welcome by this hiker. you do all realize that without any oversight whatso ever, and with only un organized volenteers unpaid, and with no government money or any sort of rule of law, that if the trail was left to its own demise, that it would be a thousand times more fun and better in each and every single way. wait, none of you know that. and the reason is because you all belive in building things up and protecting them with laws and maintaining them in a way that satisfies the groupe concensus. but thats all fine to a point. we passed that point. now we are looking at the simple equation of ruination by trampelling. when the governments of the world fall in a month or two, and money and innernet dont exist, then you wont be doing much talking about magic vs litter. and why not/ because it will have been the simple things, like talking in these ways, that will be reconized as what brought us all down. once you overide nature and decide to have 7 billion babies, your done. without allowing nature to rule, by tammeing it, it dies. then us. and finally, our high ideals.

best . rant . ever !

Lone Wolf
05-31-2011, 21:12
I agree folks shouldn't be counting on this water.

My understanding though, is that the ATC frowns on hikers pestering homeowners for water.



the ATC shouldn't promote "thru-hiking" then. section hikers are self sufficient

mweinstone
05-31-2011, 21:16
allrighty lwolf. what would you do if you were trail tszar? aside from makeing me sargent at arms and makeing gypsy trail godess i mean....

Panzer1
05-31-2011, 21:19
I for one, have at times, been caught in a position where despite my best planning, I have been short of water.


Yea, hikers are always running out of water. The only way to avoid running out completely is by rationing it. You cut your consumption in half then half again if necessary. It's not bad planning, it's just the way it is on the trail.

Panzer

Lone Wolf
05-31-2011, 21:24
allrighty lwolf. what would you do if you were trail tszar? aside from makeing me sargent at arms and makeing gypsy trail godess i mean....

i would advise walkers to dewimpify and quit expectin' stuff at all roads. a little thirst ain't no biggie. jugs and stuff... pfttttt :rolleyes:

modiyooch
05-31-2011, 21:40
MY 2 cents:
Pa is not Damascus. You don't have the elevations, the natural springs, or the feeling of remoteness. 96 degrees in Pa is not like 96 degrees anywhere else.
I certainly welcomed the family that brought in cases of water. I didn't depend on them, but I definately partook.
since we are hiking thru peoples yards, and roadways etc, why not just install spigots. plenty of road to do it.

Although, I don't think that this was Birchy's point, I think the best bet for him would be to blue blaze to his house, or list his home in the companion.

I like and agree with this statement: "Litter encourages hikers to leave more litter"

Panzer1
05-31-2011, 21:40
i would advise walkers to dewimpify and quit expectin' stuff at all roads.

roads is where hikers get all their "stuff" from.

Panzer

restless
05-31-2011, 21:51
roads is where hikers get all their "stuff" from.

Panzer


That's the problem. Hikers have come to expect it. It's nice when it happens, but what would happen if there was no "trail magic"? Methinks there would be less people completing the trail. Hiking used to be all about having everything you need on your back and everything you want in the next town. Now hikers expect other to bring it to them.

Blissful
05-31-2011, 21:59
Oh honestly, here we go again about people who want to hang out with others by having some food and THAT no longer constitutes "wilderness." This is getting old and petty

Gosh neither is the AT "wilderness" going through the middle of towns or road crossings or bridges or whatever....

emerald
05-31-2011, 22:06
I thought this thread was about water caches, not hiker feeds. Anyone else care to introduce another topic?:welcome

Blissful
05-31-2011, 22:07
I thought so too. But as usual trail magic of any kind is dragged into topics like this. #79, #80

emerald
05-31-2011, 22:09
I think wilderness would be a good topic.:)

Blissful
05-31-2011, 22:12
Which the AT is "mostly" not, let's face it.

:)

Lone Wolf
05-31-2011, 22:13
Which the AT is "mostly" not, let's face it.

:)
then no need for water jugs then

Blissful
05-31-2011, 22:15
Ok we are BACK on topic. Thanks LW

:)

kolokolo
05-31-2011, 22:48
It seems to me that there is some over-reaction here on both sides.

Surely those interested in providing water at trail crossings can appreciate that the trail maintainers want to prevent litter from accumulating.

Surely trail maintainers can appreciate that providing water or other 'trail magic' can be a positive thing and build a sense of unity and goodwill in the hiking community.

It seems to me that a little give and take is in order here, rather than hyperbole and hard and fast positions.

Just my humble opinion...

emerald
05-31-2011, 23:05
That's all reflected in ATC's TM guidelines I would have posted at the top of page 2, if not before, but they can't be linked at this time. Had I been able, some may have taken the time to read them, but before long everyone would have just been making noise anyway like always.

SassyWindsor
05-31-2011, 23:12
"pack-it-in, pack-it-out" should apply to everyone, including those generous trail magicians. If containers are to be left unattended (and picked up later by the same person, so as not to become litter) then it might be a good idea to relay this info to the local trail club and/or trail-runner(s). Anything that is taken onto the trail will eventually have to be removed by someone, don't have someone else remove your litter. I personally would enjoy setting up a table with ice cold bevs, but would stay and greet hikers as they came thru.

weary
05-31-2011, 23:31
"My understanding though, is that the ATC frowns on hikers pestering homeowners for water. "

this is whats wrong. a drunk with power organizations frowns being responded to at all. no . i wont be careing. and ill knock when the mood strikes me. if that makes me a hiker unwelcome, then screw the atc.
Mattie. Try to deal occasionally with facts. ATC is not drunk with power. It has been struggling for a decade or more to raise the money needed to keep up with the demands that the trail puts on it.

ATC has been grossly underfunded for decades. Its revamped its board, its organizational structure, and its staff -- all without success. Mostly, I suspect, because as a recent White Blaze thread suggests, hikers as a group are mostly free loaders. We mostly hate taxes, hate government, and hate being asked to donate.

The only overwhelming praise we offer any group or institution seems to be trail angels. There are notable exceptions, but as a group, it seems, we are takers, not givers.

I've never had much much routine contact with AT, other than to pay dues and attend their biennial conferences from time to time, but I hadn't heard that the group frowns on hikers pestering homeowners for water.

But I can understand why they might take such a stand. The trail is a narrow corridor through mostly private land. A major ATC goal, I suspect, is to avoid conflicts between the trail and its neighbors. Few homeowners are likely to resent an occasional knock on a door from a hiker asking for water. But a steady stream of hikers during drought periods might eventually pose less happy responses.

mweinstone
05-31-2011, 23:44
never knocked on a door in my adult life. and all people are drunk with power. and the trail is definatly in the wrong hands these days and hikers neither exspect, nor care if magic exists. you all seem missinformed about general things. i watch and listen to the drunk with power handlers of our trail every damm day. yo, listen very carefully, ive been on this trail longer than most of you. so my perspective has been shifted by what ive seen over decades and decades of obseving and serving. let me tell you something, this trailand its modern ways are an abomination to what it once was. and hikers havent changes so much as the organization of the trails orgs have. but they have changed enough to ruin the exsperience. it suck walking our trail anymore if you compare it to what we had once. you dont know. or you would agree. these aint hikers, yall aint organizers, and yes, you all are drunk with power and snobby about the trail. im from the original years. back when their were a hundred starts a year. you have no idea the comradery and espri decorps and the level of volenteerism that went on. no idea. what transpires in hostels and buissnesses and on trail and in towns is an abomination to hiking, volenteerism and appalachia. only the continued destruction of the exsperience will prove this out to yall. blind and closed minded is what we got here. you simply dont understand things, let alone this trail and who loves it.

WingedMonkey
05-31-2011, 23:53
Yea, hikers are always running out of water. The only way to avoid running out completely is by rationing it. You cut your consumption in half then half again if necessary. It's not bad planning, it's just the way it is on the trail.

Panzer

That's one of those bits of wisdom that Panzer sometimes comes up with. Stop think...do I need to take action? Do I need to think more than two hours ahead? What are my options.
;)

mweinstone
05-31-2011, 23:59
agreed. but i worry his knowlage depends too heavily on media outlets selling discounted storys fabricated in china and asembled in veitnam.when you tell panzer to turn off the gps cause you can see your own house, he mutes it and slides it under his leg but never can turn her off. ??????

Panzer1
06-01-2011, 00:54
agreed. but i worry his knowlage depends too heavily on media outlets selling discounted storys fabricated in china and asembled in veitnam.when you tell panzer to turn off the gps cause you can see your own house, he mutes it and slides it under his leg but never can turn her off. ??????

Matty, do you remember the time you were with me and we couldn't find Duncannon? We just kept driving down the wrong road in the dark and rain?. That was before we had a GPS. Bye the way, do you remember we got lost twice on the way to Duncannon and ended up taking forever to get there. :D

Panzer
"WE": definition: you and me

Dogwood
06-01-2011, 01:02
Aside from all these points of contention, some with obvious merit, and some well made excellent perspectives, and with no direspect to the OP, it's 7 miles between documented water sources. LOL! What, are hikers going to die because they go 7 miles without water IF IF IF they have FAILED to properly ration or make themselves aware of the last known water source before that 7 mile waterless stretch? LOL! You'll a bunch of spoiled AT hikers. No water for 7 miles is probably the WORST case scenario! Gotta be kidding.

RGB
06-01-2011, 03:05
I don't really think it's a question of if hikers are "counting" on the magic or not. It's pretty damn simple. It's a hot day, cold water is refreshing on hot days, birchy left some refreshing cold water. Yeah it wouldn't have changed the hike that much, but it would be...magical...to find something like that after a few hot miles. The only thing that would have rectified the situation at all is if birchy had been present with the water. I don't understand the hair-splitting (by the transitive property, I don't understand Whiteblaze). Definitely a no good deed goes unpunished scenario.

Johnny Thunder
06-01-2011, 03:39
ah to be a trailcop. imagine the bribes and stash possibilitys. man,...to be a trailcop on the take would be sweet. first thing id do is hunt down baltimore jack and bust his ass hard. prolly have to drum up some chump charges, hes kinda sweet and dosnt break laws. but id kick his ass for fun. cause i could. oxoxoxmatty?

choice #1 for my hypothetical cop-hood: I'd want to be robocop.

choice #2: time cop

choice #3: trailcop.

Wolf - 23000
06-01-2011, 03:53
The second edition of the "Appalachian Trail Fieldbook," published in 2003 by the AppaLACHIAN Trail Conservancy, is the bible for trail maintainers.

Among the "basic maintenance tasks" is "pick up and pack out litter along the trail and at overnight areas...." (see page 21.) The message is emphasized on page 43, "Remove all litter on each work trip."

And again on Page 45: "Litter encourages hikers to leave more litter. All trash should be packed out and a 'carry in/carry out' policy implemented. A clean site is more likely to stay clean."

And on page 46: "Litter is the bane of Trail maintenance and management -- one of the most discouraging signs of hiker inexperience or thoughtlessness. But few things are more satisfying than restoring a littered area to its pristine condition.... Don't allow litter to remain along the AT or its facilities."

There's more in the pocket-sized, 96-page manual, but you get the idea. MATC provides copies to all its maintainers, and I assume other maintaining clubs and PATC do also. Others can buy copies from the ATC Trail Store by opening up its web site.

Weary,

I have not read the Field Manual but don't doubt that it is there. When things are obviously trash then of course we all need to do are part to pack it out. At the same time I also believe in the law of common sense. There are many things on the trail that are not part of nature but serve a purpose to hikers such as signs, blazes, shelters, privies and in some areas trash cans.

A blaze on the trail doesn't encourage graffiti, at the same time I don't believe a clean or messy site makes any different in the way hikers treat it. A water jug that is doing a service for hikers, most hikers can see as someone doing something nice. It is different than just trash.

Finally, it is always nice to come into a nice and clean site but a lazy hiker is just that, a lazy very hiker who doesn't care. They are going to leave litter or pack it out regardless of if the site is clean or not.

Wolf

Wolf - 23000
06-01-2011, 04:01
it's a choice to be out there. not a need. plan accordingly

Lone Wolf,

We have gone back and forth on the issue of helping out hikers in trouble. Your position being to help out hikers when they are in trouble regardless. Someone leaving water for hikers who need water, isn't that helping hikers something you are for?

Wolf

trailangelmary
06-01-2011, 04:11
I have only scanned this thread so I apologize for any repitition ibut can tell you, Birchy, that although your intentions are good (been their done that) you will not win any battle you may try to fight with the ATC and NPS. The facts are that both of these trail organizations have policies that must be adhered to. Trail magic may not be unattended and water unattended on the trail is ony allowed during drought conditions.
Modify your kindness to suit is my best advise.

trailangelmary
06-01-2011, 04:24
I would like to say that in my 10 years being associated with the trail and living in PA that hikers do not expect magic when they have made it this far. 90% of the time that have not happened upon any magic!

bfayer
06-01-2011, 05:50
I would like to say that in my 10 years being associated with the trail and living in PA that hikers do not expect magic when they have made it this far. 90% of the time that have not happened upon any magic!

Thank you Mary for what you do. It's sad if any hikers EXPECT trail magic.

birchy
06-01-2011, 06:00
Ok... People, i thank you for all your input. I have seen many sides of this story and every reply has been read, for those who kept on topic and provided constructive feedback thank you for the others that want to hike in russia, planes leave everyday. A water jug with ice in it is not litter, and should have been left alone at a busy trailhead. It is only may and pennsylvania is in the 90's.... I bet the attitudes will change come august and there is no water.... But guess what? I'll still be freezing jugs of water and leaving them at road crossings... Happy trails

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 06:47
Lone Wolf,

We have gone back and forth on the issue of helping out hikers in trouble. Someone leaving water for hikers who need water, isn't that helping hikers something you are for?

Wolf

nah. i'd help out anybody in real trouble. being hot and thirsty is part of long distance hiking so hikers aren't in trouble, just a little uncomfortable. if you wanna pamper hikers at road crossings, do it in person. never leave anything unattended. it's real simple

Old Hiker
06-01-2011, 07:05
Weary,


A blaze on the trail doesn't encourage graffiti, at the same time I don't believe a clean or messy site makes any different in the way hikers treat it. A water jug that is doing a service for hikers, most hikers can see as someone doing something nice. It is different than just trash.

Finally, it is always nice to come into a nice and clean site but a lazy hiker is just that, a lazy very hiker who doesn't care. They are going to leave litter or pack it out regardless of if the site is clean or not.

Wolf

Broken window syndrome.

Lemni Skate
06-01-2011, 08:53
Obviously, the person who took the jug and left the water knew it wasn't litter. If they truly thought it was litter, why bother leaving the note? The note would also be litter. So the note was a lie.

The note should have said, "We have a policy against leaving unattended water jugs on the trail so I took the jug. We do not have a policy against leaving unattended chairs, towels and notes on the trail so I left them."

emerald
06-01-2011, 09:36
Birchy claims to have read what's posted, but the most important points apparently got lost somewhere in the mountain of information because they didn't register with him. He needs to realize he does not own the land or make policy related to its management.

He needs to reread Mary's 1st post. When he realizes his caches should not be unattended and stops fighting a fight he cannot win, there will no longer be a problem.

WingedMonkey
06-01-2011, 10:54
I have only scanned this thread so I apologize for any repitition ibut can tell you, Birchy, that although your intentions are good (been their done that) you will not win any battle you may try to fight with the ATC and NPS. The facts are that both of these trail organizations have policies that must be adhered to. Trail magic may not be unattended and water unattended on the trail is ony allowed during drought conditions.
Modify your kindness to suit is my best advise.

You have both learned and taught so much. Glad you can adjust and keep on trucking.

weary
06-01-2011, 10:55
never knocked on a door in my adult life. and all people are drunk with power. and the trail is definatly in the wrong hands these days and hikers neither exspect, nor care if magic exists. you all seem missinformed about general things. i watch and listen to the drunk with power handlers of our trail every damm day. yo, listen very carefully, ive been on this trail longer than most of you. so my perspective has been shifted by what ive seen over decades and decades of obseving and serving. let me tell you something, this trailand its modern ways are an abomination to what it once was. and hikers havent changes so much as the organization of the trails orgs have. but they have changed enough to ruin the exsperience. it suck walking our trail anymore if you compare it to what we had once. you dont know. or you would agree. these aint hikers, yall aint organizers, and yes, you all are drunk with power and snobby about the trail. im from the original years. back when their were a hundred starts a year. you have no idea the comradery and espri decorps and the level of volenteerism that went on. no idea. what transpires in hostels and buissnesses and on trail and in towns is an abomination to hiking, volenteerism and appalachia. only the continued destruction of the exsperience will prove this out to yall. blind and closed minded is what we got here. you simply dont understand things, let alone this trail and who loves it.
I was hiking the trail and observing the trail 20 years before you were born. You are right, however. The trail and hikers have changed and not for the better. We used to strap on a pack with the supplies we needed for at least a week, and called home every week or so when we hit a town with a pay phone.

Today no one dares to leave home without means for instant communication so they can call for rescue if they get a blister. Most hikers stop every two or three days to resupply, because they think it is a badge of honor to not carry more than 12 pounds. And look forward to free food and jugs of ice water at every intersection.

Though the modern hiker loves to take gifts of food and water. They abhor the thought of paying a fee or donating themselves. As a result trail maintianing clubs are often starved for the funds needed to keep the trail properly maintained.

mister krabs
06-01-2011, 10:57
Birchy claims to have read what's posted, but the most important points apparently got lost somewhere in the mountain of information because they didn't register with him. He needs to realize he does not own the land or make policy related to its management.

He needs to reread Mary's 1st post. When he realizes his caches should not be unattended and stops fighting a fight he cannot win, there will no longer be a problem.


He could also completely ignore what he's been told by those with different beliefs than his, do what he wants to do and take the occasional loss of a water jug in stride.

That's the option that I'd choose.

weary
06-01-2011, 11:06
Weary,

I have not read the Field Manual but don't doubt that it is there. When things are obviously trash then of course we all need to do are part to pack it out. At the same time I also believe in the law of common sense. There are many things on the trail that are not part of nature but serve a purpose to hikers such as signs, blazes, shelters, privies and in some areas trash cans.

A blaze on the trail doesn't encourage graffiti, at the same time I don't believe a clean or messy site makes any different in the way hikers treat it. A water jug that is doing a service for hikers, most hikers can see as someone doing something nice. It is different than just trash.

Finally, it is always nice to come into a nice and clean site but a lazy hiker is just that, a lazy very hiker who doesn't care. They are going to leave litter or pack it out regardless of if the site is clean or not.

Wolf
Believe or not. Those of us who have spent decades taking care of trails and campsites know that a clean campsite tends to stay clean. A dirty site quickly collects ever more trash.

Lauriep
06-01-2011, 12:18
Someone referenced ATC's "Suggestions for Providing Trail Magic." Since they haven't yet made it onto our redesigned website, I'm posting them here.

Input was provided by ATC, ALDHA, A.T. land-managing agencies, trail-club volunteers, and folks here on WhiteBlaze.

Laurie Potteiger
ATC



Trail Magic, defined as an unexpected act of kindness, is a quintessential part of the Appalachian Trail experience for many long-distance hikers. The suggestions below incorporate Leave No Trace practices (www.LNT.org) to help those providing trail magic have the most positive impact on hikers, the Trail, its plants and wildlife, and the volunteers who maintain and preserve it. The Appalachian Trail Conservancy and the Appalachian Long Distance Hikers Association endorse these suggestions.


Help conserve and maintain the Trail. The most essential service you can perform is to volunteer to maintain the Trail and overnight sites, or to monitor boundaries and resource conditions. Visit www.appalachiantrail.org for more information, or check with your local trail-maintaining club to find out how or where you may assist.


Locate events in developed areas on durable surfaces. Large gatherings in the backcountry can lead to trampling of plants, soil compaction, and disturbance of wildlife habitat. Trail towns and local parks are better locations. Keep events small. Consider whether your event may be contributing to an overabundance of trail feeds in the local area or region. Some hikers come to the Trail to seek solitude and contemplation.


Prepare and serve food safely. If you will be cooking or preparing food, check with the landowner to find an appropriate area and learn what food-safety or other regulations apply. Permits may be required. Charging a fee or asking for donations may not be allowed.


Be present if you provide food or drink. Unattended items—including their packaging—can harm wildlife that consume them, or hikers, when unrefrigerated products grow bacteria or become contaminated. Unattended items are considered litter and their presence detracts from the wildland character of backcountry environments. Dispense food and drink in person, and carry out any trash or leftovers.


Restore the site. Leave the site as you found it—don’t create a burden for Trail volunteers whose time is better spent in other activities.


Advertise off-trail. Advertising—even noncommercial—is prohibited on the A.T. Publicizing a “feed” in advance can lead to clumping of long distance hikers, causing overcrowded conditions and avoidable impacts at shelters and campsites.

Forgo alcoholic beverages. Don’t risk the legality and liability associated with serving minors, over-serving adults, or the safety issues associated with intoxicated hikers.


Be hospitable to all. While many long-distance hikers will likely appreciate trail magic, be sure to make all trail users and volunteers feel welcome.

medic mullins
06-01-2011, 12:25
thanks for the help birtchy p.s u might save a life by bringing water out there u never know

emerald
06-01-2011, 12:59
He could also completely ignore what he's been told by those [in a position of authority], do what he wants to do and take the occasional loss of a water jug in stride.

It's this kind of thinking that has led to a polarized America on exhibit here almost daily.

The carefully-crafted NPS/ATC position takes into consideration all points of view and is what's best for the Appalachian Trail, but some think they know better.

AT enthusiasts can do without the animosity it generates, the result of which will be a trail without maintainers. The day will soon come when all the hikers tapping on their keyboards who espouse this kind of approach will wonder what happened to their beloved trail.

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 13:06
Be present if you provide food or drink. Unattended items—including their packaging—can harm wildlife that consume them, or hikers, when unrefrigerated products grow bacteria or become contaminated. Unattended items are considered litter and their presence detracts from the wildland character of backcountry environments. Dispense food and drink in person, and carry out any trash or leftovers.




imagine that

Wolf - 23000
06-01-2011, 14:06
nah. i'd help out anybody in real trouble. being hot and thirsty is part of long distance hiking so hikers aren't in trouble, just a little uncomfortable. if you wanna pamper hikers at road crossings, do it in person. never leave anything unattended. it's real simple

Lone Wolf,

First, I know you do help a lot of hikers. It shows what a good man you are. With that said, most of the Search and Rescues are just hikers being uncomfortable. I for one can say many of the Rescues that go on are not hikers in real trouble. Many of the rescue that go on, I've been there too, maybe had a rough night but still got my butt out.

Leaving water for hikers is pampering hikers and it is always better to do it in person, I agree. Sometimes it is not always possible because of work or other of life task that go on. For a few years when I live by the trail, I drove pass the trail almost every day to work. It only took a few minutes to stop by and fill jugs, leave sometimes little treats. I couldn't sit around waiting for a few hikers that would pass by but it was still nice to be a part of the trail even if I couldn't hike long distance any more.

Wolf

emerald
06-01-2011, 14:27
Visit www.appalachiantrail.org (http://www.appalachiantrail.org) for more information, or check with your local trail-maintaining club to find out how or where you may assist.

It doesn't require 10 characters!

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 14:34
Lone Wolf,

First, I know you do help a lot of hikers. It shows what a good man you are. With that said, most of the Search and Rescues are just hikers being uncomfortable. I for one can say many of the Rescues that go on are not hikers in real trouble. Many of the rescue that go on, I've been there too, maybe had a rough night but still got my butt out.

Leaving water for hikers is pampering hikers and it is always better to do it in person, I agree. Sometimes it is not always possible because of work or other of life task that go on. For a few years when I live by the trail, I drove pass the trail almost every day to work. It only took a few minutes to stop by and fill jugs, leave sometimes little treats. I couldn't sit around waiting for a few hikers that would pass by but it was still nice to be a part of the trail even if I couldn't hike long distance any more.

Wolf
i help a lot of section hikers with shuttling. i pretty much have nothing to do with thru-hikers except when i run them out of the hostel for blatantly breaking rules. i've lived here 10 years and have never hung out at road crossings or left anything at crossings for self-sufficient walkers on vacation

sarman
06-01-2011, 17:28
Obviously, the person who took the jug and left the water knew it wasn't litter. If they truly thought it was litter, why bother leaving the note? The note would also be litter. So the note was a lie.

The note should have said, "We have a policy against leaving unattended water jugs on the trail so I took the jug. We do not have a policy against leaving unattended chairs, towels and notes on the trail so I left them."

One of the few intelligent replies. The note WAS LITTER ITSELF!!!!

sarman
06-01-2011, 17:37
i would advise walkers to dewimpify and quit expectin' stuff at all roads. a little thirst ain't no biggie. jugs and stuff... pfttttt :rolleyes:

nowhere in this discussion was any hiker expecting TM. The issue was one of wanting to provide TM. My experience is that giving TM is even more enjoyable than partaking of it. Maybe that is not your experience.

WingedMonkey
06-01-2011, 18:21
nowhere in this discussion was any hiker expecting TM. The issue was one of wanting to provide TM. My experience is that giving TM is even more enjoyable than partaking of it. Maybe that is not your experience.

That's why you do hiker feeds, and that's why someone else has to take your signs down. Because you don't care if goes against ATC standards, as long as it makes you happy.

Many Walks
06-01-2011, 19:56
Dang, this thread is starting to wind down. I think the hikers with poles liked the water and the ones with dogs didn't....or was it the ones with guns who didn't like it, but the one's who don't treat water did. Maybe the ones who stay at shelters liked it, but the ones who sleep with their food didn't. Hmmm, not sure. More importantly, how long does cheese last on the trail?

WalkinHome
06-01-2011, 21:25
never knocked on a door in my adult life. and all people are drunk with power. and the trail is definatly in the wrong hands these days and hikers neither exspect, nor care if magic exists. you all seem missinformed about general things. i watch and listen to the drunk with power handlers of our trail every damm day. yo, listen very carefully, ive been on this trail longer than most of you. so my perspective has been shifted by what ive seen over decades and decades of obseving and serving. let me tell you something, this trailand its modern ways are an abomination to what it once was. and hikers havent changes so much as the organization of the trails orgs have. but they have changed enough to ruin the exsperience. it suck walking our trail anymore if you compare it to what we had once. you dont know. or you would agree. these aint hikers, yall aint organizers, and yes, you all are drunk with power and snobby about the trail. im from the original years. back when their were a hundred starts a year. you have no idea the comradery and espri decorps and the level of volenteerism that went on. no idea. what transpires in hostels and buissnesses and on trail and in towns is an abomination to hiking, volenteerism and appalachia. only the continued destruction of the exsperience will prove this out to yall. blind and closed minded is what we got here. you simply dont understand things, let alone this trail and who loves it.

Matti, I love you man but as far as Maine is concerned (can't speak to any other club), you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here. Having a hand in preserving historical documents for the MATC I can assure you that your position here is not based on fact. I will bring a CD containing all of the club's newsletters to the "feed" in July. This will give you historical accounts of work trips, massive relocations, etc. See ya in July.

Jim Adams
06-01-2011, 21:53
More importantly, how long does cheese last on the trail?

...obviously longer than a gallon of water.:-?

it's also pretty clear after reading this thread that other than Lone Wolf, people who actually hike like the water drops and people who don't like it type on computers instead of hiking.:D

geek

restless
06-01-2011, 21:58
...obviously longer than a gallon of water.:-?

it's also pretty clear after reading this thread that other than Lone Wolf, people who actually hike like the water drops and people who don't like it type on computers instead of hiking.:D

geek

Actually, just scanning thru the list, it seems that both those that are for AND those that are against have thru hikes under their belts. And I doubt that anyone was hiking while they were typing their responses. Just an observation.

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 22:00
nowhere in this discussion was any hiker expecting TM. The issue was one of wanting to provide TM. My experience is that giving TM is even more enjoyable than partaking of it. Maybe that is not your experience.

water at road crossings is not "trail magic" it's "hiker enabling". if you're gonna do it, stay on scene, dispense it then pick it all up and leave. what don't y'all understand?

restless
06-01-2011, 22:00
Actually, just scanning thru the list, it seems that both those that are for AND those that are against have thru hikes under their belts. And I doubt that anyone was hiking while they were typing their responses. Just an observation.

I also noticed that the OP has never thru hiked. Nor have I for that matter.

WingedMonkey
06-01-2011, 22:05
Does hauling booze up to a shelter count as hiking?

:sun

restless
06-01-2011, 22:06
Does hauling booze up to a shelter count as hiking?

:sun

Just so long as you don't leave the empty in the fire pit:D

Jim Adams
06-01-2011, 22:09
It has nothing to do with thru hiking...it is about getting out there and actually hiking. The more you get out there and hike, the more you appreciate the water available.....only 7 miles between water sources is not a problem until you get there and it is dry...and so is the next one...and the one after that.

geek

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 22:10
...obviously longer than a gallon of water.:-?

it's also pretty clear after reading this thread that other than Lone Wolf, people who actually hike like the water drops and people who don't like it type on computers instead of hiking.:D

geek

honey, i've hiked more miles on the AT than you ever will and hiked "back in the day" when all this entitlement crap and pampering never happened. i'll never forget the time at fontana when you and your pal were giving "trail magic" to thru-hikers only. eat my dust kid :cool:

Panzer1
06-01-2011, 22:27
this thread goes on and on because neither side can come up with an argument compelling enough to convince the other side.

Panzer

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 22:30
honey, i've hiked more miles on the AT than you ever will and hiked "back in the day" when all this entitlement crap and pampering never happened. i'll never forget the time at fontana when you and your pal were giving "trail magic" to thru-hikers only. eat my dust kid :cool:

plus you bring in your booze and stuff to low gap shelter each year which is totally not cool

Jim Adams
06-01-2011, 22:31
honey, i've hiked more miles on the AT than you ever will and hiked "back in the day" when all this entitlement crap and pampering never happened. i'll never forget the time at fontana when you and your pal were giving "trail magic" to thru-hikers only. eat my dust kid :cool:

That is why I didn't include you in that bunch in my response. I have alot of respect for your ability and your miles hiked...always have.
....and that wasn't me doing trail magic at Fontana...never have. That was 2002 and I was thru hiking.

geek

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 22:35
....and that wasn't me doing trail magic at Fontana...never have. That was 2002 and I was thru hiking.

geek

it was totally you there that day. you're buddy, the one time hiker was more or less in charge

Jim Adams
06-01-2011, 22:39
it was totally you there that day. you're buddy, the one time hiker was more or less in charge

Nope, wasn't me. He came out to see me and do some magic. I was just there on my thru....and yes, I do go to Low Gap every year...haven't had a complaint yet by anyone actually there for St. Patrick's Day.

geek

RGB
06-01-2011, 22:42
I think it's safe to say that this thread has ran its course. Mods?

Sierra Echo
06-01-2011, 22:46
I think it's safe to say that this thread has ran its course. Mods?

What? You want the Mods to post? :rolleyes:

weary
06-01-2011, 22:55
....and yes, I do go to Low Gap every year...haven't had a complaint yet by anyone actually there for St. Patrick's Day. geek
And you won't. The fact that you -- amd hundreds of others -- are there and elsewhere, offering their goodies, has changed the nature of the trail. It no longer is a walk with nature, but a 2,000 mile-long party walk for many, perhaps most hikers these days.

You didn't plan for that to happen. You just wanted a feel good reminder of your walk by offering food to hikers. But a trail with periodic hiker feeds, is a different thing than a trail through a natural landscape, where one carries their own gear and food, and communes with what little wildness may be left in the woods and hills.

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 23:19
Nope, wasn't me. He came out to see me and do some magic. I was just there on my thru....and yes, I do go to Low Gap every year...haven't had a complaint yet by anyone actually there for St. Patrick's Day.

geek

ok. i concede. your buddy, by not offering us section hikers anything, set the stage of elitism. me and johnny reb started at springer with most of the hikers chowin' down on burgers. funny thing is we had steaks and a small toss away grill that your elitist bud didn't see :) it's the principal. hikers don't NEED any of this crap. but like bears these days, they expect it

k.reynolds70
06-01-2011, 23:22
I think it's safe to say that this thread has ran its course. Mods?

I haven't visited this post early on, and now that I'm back, I can't believe it's still here:-?

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 23:25
I haven't visited this post early on, and now that I'm back, I can't believe it's still here:-?

why not? just some discussion goin' on

birchy
06-01-2011, 23:26
You people need to get jobs or get out in the woods because U have too much time on your hands

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 23:28
You people need to get jobs or get out in the woods because U have too much time on your hands

i have 3 "jobs" and live on the trail and have hiked/hike more than you ever will :)

k.reynolds70
06-01-2011, 23:31
hey come on fellas, its 1130. Im drinking beer, i dont know about you.
Lone Wolf hope things are well down there in Damascus. I drove thru Glade Spring the last time I was in Damascus...good god, man. Hope you didnt know anyone out that way...

k.reynolds70
06-01-2011, 23:33
The weather was so bad the week I was in town (early the week after TD) I didnt stop by and have a beer with you. But I was pretty blow away by Glade Spring.

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 23:34
hey come on fellas, its 1130. Im drinking beer, i dont know about you.
Lone Wolf hope things are well down there in Damascus. I drove thru Glade Spring the last time I was in Damascus...good god, man. Hope you didnt know anyone out that way...

i'm drinkin' wine
glade is a mess. i knew a few but they just had damage, no injuries or death.

Lone Wolf
06-01-2011, 23:39
The weather was so bad the week I was in town (early the week after TD) I didnt stop by and have a beer with you. But I was pretty blow away by Glade Spring.

i made a comment about instead of hardcore doin' trail work they should organize the 100+ hikers that volunteer and shift the focus to Glade Springs for the clean-up effort, etc. fell on deaf ears. lotsa folks still sufferin' and needin' help.

k.reynolds70
06-01-2011, 23:45
i made a comment about instead of hardcore doin' trail work they should organize the 100+ hikers that volunteer and shift the focus to Glade Springs for the clean-up effort, etc. fell on deaf ears. lotsa folks still sufferin' and needin' help.

Funny you should mention that:
Im going to be with Konnarock in early July doing the New River relocation outside P-burg, I'll have some time off afterward (after the 11th) I'll give you a shout. Looking forward to heading back to SW...

birchy
06-02-2011, 07:56
Originally Posted by Lemni Skate http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1166970#post1166970)
Obviously, the person who took the jug and left the water knew it wasn't litter. If they truly thought it was litter, why bother leaving the note? The note would also be litter. So the note was a lie.

The note should have said, "We have a policy against leaving unattended water jugs on the trail so I took the jug. We do not have a policy against leaving unattended chairs, towels and notes on the trail so I left them."
One of the few intelligent replies. The note WAS LITTER ITSELF!!!!


sarman, you are spot on with that comment

Jonnycat
06-02-2011, 08:49
water at road crossings is not "trail magic" it's "hiker enabling".

I to call it trail welfare, and there is nothing magic about that.

"Magic" is the random person stopping to pick you up when you are hitchhiking, a person who 10 seconds before they stopped had no intention on picking up a hitchhiker, but somehow, something about you standing there made them slow down and give you a lift. That's magic.

What many people see as trail "magic" is nothing more than hiker co-dependency, and severely undermines the self-reliance and independance which long distance hiking would otherwise foster. This "magic" encourages more people onto the trail with an entitlement mindset and behaviors which give the rest of us a bad name.

There is a reason we are not to feed the bears, although not too long ago this was not common knowledge, as images from the last century will attest soon. Perhaps in years to come people will come to their senses and realize that it is no different with hikers.

mister krabs
06-02-2011, 09:30
It's this kind of thinking that has led to a polarized America on exhibit here almost daily.

The carefully-crafted NPS/ATC position takes into consideration all points of view and is what's best for the Appalachian Trail, but some think they know better.

AT enthusiasts can do without the animosity it generates, the result of which will be a trail without maintainers. The day will soon come when all the hikers tapping on their keyboards who espouse this kind of approach will wonder what happened to their beloved trail.

Holy Hyperbole Horace!

You sure see a lot of slippery slopes, Emerald. That my attitude could mean a trail without maintainers gives me rather grandiose notions! The trail has always been a study in the actual workings of the tragedy of the commons. As long as the trail is considered by it's users as common property rather than an open access resource it will continue.

Not everyone shares your unquestioning fealty to those who are appointed to determine what is best or what points of view are worthy. Those in authority put their pants on one leg at a time and personal responsibility for personal decisions on ethical questions remains between the actor and his conscience.

Having said that, I'm sure that Birchy is sorry he ever came on here to vent and wished he had kept it to himself, as he is likely to do with his future activities. I doubt that the considerations of fiat authorities has much to do with that decision.

LDog
06-02-2011, 09:31
There is a reason we are not to feed the bears, although not too long ago this was not common knowledge, as images from the last century will attest soon. Perhaps in years to come people will come to their senses and realize that it is no different with hikers.

If this continues, hikers will soon associate road-crossings with water and food. At those locations where they find nothing, they will likely move down the road, knock on doors and yogi for food and water. Soon residents will be complaining to trail police about hikers knocking over trash cans at night, and eating their pets. Nuisance hikers will eventually have to be either relocated to wilderness areas, or put down.

Sad, and so preventable ...

weary
06-02-2011, 10:45
....I'm sure that Birchy is sorry he ever came on here to vent and wished he had kept it to himself, as he is likely to do with his future activities. I doubt that the considerations of fiat authorities has much to do with that decision.
Birchy came on here with criticism of the largest and hardest working trail maintaining club for following the commonsense rules adopted as a result of 80 plus years of experience with the trail and its users.

The Appalachian Trail was created over many decades by thousands of volunteers, dedicated to creating a haven of wildness along the ridgeline of peaks that traverse the crowded east. That haven is being gradually destroyed by well-meaning do gooders who have no appreciation of the fragility of eastern wildness, nor of its importance.

Panzer1
06-02-2011, 11:13
this thread has turned ugly

Panzer

birchy
06-02-2011, 11:29
Originally Posted by emerald http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1166981#post1166981)
Birchy claims to have read what's posted, but the most important points apparently got lost somewhere in the mountain of information because they didn't register with him. He needs to realize he does not own the land or make policy related to its management.

That is where you are wrong... WE ALL OWN THE LAND, it was our tax dollars that purchased it, and it is located in the middle of a State Forest which as a Pennsylvania resident, makes it my land, but not mine alone. If I leave my tent at a campsite while I go somewhere does that give a trail maintainer the right to take the rain fly because it may blow off and become LITTER

jrwiesz
06-02-2011, 11:36
water at road crossings is not "trail magic" it's "hiker enabling". if you're gonna do it, stay on scene, dispense it then pick it all up and leave. what don't y'all understand?


If this continues, hikers will soon associate road-crossings with water and food. At those locations where they find nothing, they will likely move down the road, knock on doors and yogi for food and water. Soon residents will be complaining to trail police about hikers knocking over trash cans at night, and eating their pets. Nuisance hikers will eventually have to be either relocated to wilderness areas, or put down.

Sad, and so preventable ...


There ya have it.

If' ya don't have enough water for a seven mile stretch; "Stay thirsty my friend". :sun

jrwiesz
06-02-2011, 11:42
Birchy came on here with criticism of the largest and hardest working trail maintaining club for following the commonsense rules adopted as a result of 80 plus years of experience with the trail and its users.

The Appalachian Trail was created over many decades by thousands of volunteers, dedicated to creating a haven of wildness along the ridgeline of peaks that traverse the crowded east. That haven is being gradually destroyed by well-meaning do gooders who have no appreciation of the fragility of eastern wildness, nor of its importance.


Spot on; weary wisdom. :sun

BFL
06-02-2011, 11:49
Originally Posted by emerald http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1166981#post1166981)
Birchy claims to have read what's posted, but the most important points apparently got lost somewhere in the mountain of information because they didn't register with him. He needs to realize he does not own the land or make policy related to its management.

That is where you are wrong... WE ALL OWN THE LAND, it was our tax dollars that purchased it, and it is located in the middle of a State Forest which as a Pennsylvania resident, makes it my land, but not mine alone. If I leave my tent at a campsite while I go somewhere does that give a trail maintainer the right to take the rain fly because it may blow off and become LITTER

When you get stopped for a ticket do you tell the cop "I'm your boss?"

Really- you think you are doing the right thing; the official trail maintenance organization says differently. In this case, its opinion controls, so please stop littering.

Simple enough to stay with whatever you wish to provide.

Carbo
06-02-2011, 13:20
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone. - Thoreau


Let's all go for a long, long walk.

brian2o0o
06-02-2011, 21:14
Wouldn't that be trading trash for trash? They took your water jug and left a note written on paper...?

weary
06-02-2011, 22:25
Wouldn't that be trading trash for trash? They took your water jug and left a note written on paper...?
My suggestion is to seriously read this thread. You may find your comment doesn't really address the issue. It's just an attempt to avoid a real issue.

napster
06-03-2011, 07:46
I personally carry 2-3 liters of water while hiking. Thirsting for water is a constant for me due to med side effects. While I believe it would have been better for Birchy to have stayed with the water maybe the circumstances at the time didn't permit him. Lesson learned. There have been some good, bad, and ugly ideas discussed in this thread.
I would like for "Hikers Only" of WB to ask themselves these questions. "Have I ever borrowed or has someone given me, while on the AT, stove fuel, aqua mira,tp, batteries, trash bags, twine, cell phone, tampons, bug repellant, duct tape, maps, super glue, Vitamin I, pen/paper, coffee, a drink of corn, money, or a beer?"The list can go on...
That generous hiker who obliged you with an item out of the kindness of their heart enabled you to become a SUPPORTED hiker in some way, so can one truly say "I was unsupported while I hiked the AT?" I am only being real. I believe most seasoned hikers are well prepared today but there was a time we all were tenderfoots.
I also believe the day we choose to stop learning we are dead but some people are just plain UNteachable or they believe they know everything. Some like a good debate and some folks are just like an ex-spouse or a bad neighbor. What I mean is we are all just human. We make mistakes.There are no super hikers and no one is perfect. Birchy came on here to share his frustration. Pretty much, we all have vented like some flea-bitten dog's ass infested with log cabin WB fever and acted worse then deputy Fife himself.
How about the rest of the day you try to understand you ain't no damn Trapper John having hiked many thru hikes or sections from Georgia to Maine totally UNsupported. Think about how to improve your post so the information can be helpful for fellow hikers or just be quiet and listen to others give positive feedback.
My words to Birchy are thank you for all your work and time and don't let this isolated incident knock you over.I like the idea to chain the water jugs to the tree then go back and get everything later if you can not hang around

d.o.c
06-03-2011, 07:54
I personally carry 2-3 liters of water while hiking. Thirsting for water is a constant for me due to med side effects. While I believe it would have been better for Birchy to have stayed with the water maybe the circumstances at the time didn't permit him. Lesson learned. There have been some good, bad, and ugly ideas discussed in this thread.
I would like for "Hikers Only" of WB to ask themselves these questions. "Have I ever borrowed or has someone given me, while on the AT, stove fuel, aqua mira,tp, batteries, trash bags, twine, cell phone, tampons, bug repellant, duct tape, maps, super glue, Vitamin I, pen/paper, coffee, a drink of corn, money, or a beer?"The list can go on...
That generous hiker who obliged you with an item out of the kindness of their heart enabled you to become a SUPPORTED hiker in some way, so can one truly say "I was unsupported while I hiked the AT?" I am only being real. I believe most seasoned hikers are well prepared today but there was a time we all were tenderfoots.
I also believe the day we choose to stop learning we are dead but some people are just plain UNteachable or they believe they know everything. Some like a good debate and some folks are just like an ex-spouse or a bad neighbor. What I mean is we are all just human. We make mistakes.There are no super hikers and no one is perfect. Birchy came on here to share his frustration. Pretty much, we all have vented like some flea-bitten dog's ass infested with log cabin WB fever and acted worse then deputy Fife himself.
How about the rest of the day you try to understand you ain't no damn Trapper John having hiked many thru hikes or sections from Georgia to Maine totally UNsupported. Think about how to improve your post so the information can be helpful for fellow hikers or just be quiet and listen to others give positive feedback.
My words to Birchy are thank you for all your work and time and don't let this isolated incident knock you over.I like the idea to chain the water jugs to the tree then go back and get everything later if you can not hang around
agreed.......

max patch
06-03-2011, 08:28
]I would like for "Hikers Only" of WB to ask themselves these questions. "Have I ever borrowed or has someone given me, while on the AT, stove fuel, aqua mira,tp, batteries, trash bags, twine, cell phone, tampons, bug repellant, duct tape, maps, super glue, Vitamin I, pen/paper, coffee, a drink of corn, money, or a beer?"

Sure, people have given me stuff on the trail.

They handed it to me.

They didn't throw it on the ground and wait for me to go come by and pick it up.

WingedMonkey
06-03-2011, 12:49
Lets get real. He lives right off of the trail and has opened his house to get visitors. He goes to the shelters on a regular basis to see visitors. He tried to put in a blue blaze to his house (the PATC said no) to get visitors. He parks water on the trail to get visitors.
Some people love to visit...some don't

:)

Nean
06-03-2011, 13:40
Maybe you should leave a note saying I'd be back in a few...:)

Maybe the popo was thirsty and was to proud to say thank you...:p

Maybe its nothing to worry about....;)

weary
06-03-2011, 18:16
Lets get real. He lives right off of the trail and has opened his house to get visitors. He goes to the shelters on a regular basis to see visitors. He tried to put in a blue blaze to his house (the PATC said no) to get visitors. He parks water on the trail to get visitors.
Some people love to visit...some don't :)
I guess one interesting question is who is Birchy. He joined last month, and either has a hostel or is promoting another hostel that apparently opened June 1. So far most of his 38 posts consists of criticism of PATC, a pioneer AT promoter, and spam for a trail business, whether the business is profit or nonprofit is unclear.

birchy
06-03-2011, 18:34
Hey Weary & Wingedmonkey.... take a look in the mirror. Worry about yourself not everyone else

max patch
06-03-2011, 18:36
I guess one interesting question is who is Birchy. He joined last month, and either has a hostel or is promoting another hostel that apparently opened June 1. So far most of his 38 posts consists of criticism of PATC, a pioneer AT promoter, and spam for a trail business, whether the business is profit or nonprofit is unclear.

Good detective work, Weary. His one and only post at Trailplace is also plugging the hostel.

birchy
06-03-2011, 18:43
Trailplace is an AT resource website, and they asked for the info to put in the thru-hikers handbook... bet u don't work for the FBI any more

weary
06-03-2011, 19:11
Hey Weary & Wingedmonkey.... take a look in the mirror. Worry about yourself not everyone else
Birchy. These days I mostly worry about trails, not myself. Just tell us about your trail business, if any. If you are opening a hostel just say so. Trail magic is a standard method of attracting business. Many newcomers to the business patrol the intersecting roads each afternoon recruiting customers. Some provide other trail "magic" as they seek to let the world know they are around and that they welcome hikers to stop.

Some hostels charge fees, some seek donations, and some are free. Which are you? There's no shame either way. We are a multiple business society in case you haven't noticed.

Mags
06-03-2011, 19:12
This thread ran its course...