Dummy load for 5-day hike...

[tlbj6142]

I'm putting together this newbie guide to the AT thingy for this site. I want to describe to readers how much weight and space 5-days worth of food would consume just for the purposes of determine pack volume and frame load transfer.

Using the 2# per day standard, I'd end with 10# of food, but how much volume does the "typical" 10# re-supply take up? What about a 15# (3# per day) re-supply which might be needed for thru-hiking planing after your "hiker hunger" has kicked in?

Originally I was thinking about 10# (or 15#) bag of potatos, but the volume seems to be a bit high. Any suggestions?

Maybe it would need to be a 2-step process? Use 10# weight for load testing, but use a X" by Y" stuffsack filled with a pillow for volume testing.

BTW, I hope to have a first draft tomorrow or Tuesday which all of us and tear apart.:D

[ACH05]

Would a bag of flour accurately simulate the weight/volume of trail food?

[chris]

Would a bag of flour accurately simulate the weight/volume of trail food?

Too compact and uniform.

A weekend supply of food for me usually takes up half my food bag, which is a standard large silnylon food bag.

The best test would be to gather up the food and take photos of it in a food bag. Food doesn't squish down in volume like a pillow will.

[The Solemates]

[QUOTE=chris]The best test would be to gather up the food and take photos of it in a food bag. [QUOTE]

yea, how hard is this? go buy some candy bars and pasta and give it a go. hiker food isnt expensive and you can eat it on your next hike.

[The Solemates]

whups...oh well

[Moose2001]

I've always found that 5 days of food fills a #4 OR Stuffbag. Here's the listing from OR's webpage on sizes and volumes.

Hydroseal Stuff Sacks
Size Dimensions Volume
in. cm cu. in. liters
#1 6 x 11 15 x 28 300 4.9
#2 7 x 13 18 x 33 500 8.2
#3 8 x 15 20 x 38 750 12.3
#4 9 x 17 23 x 43 1100 18.0
#5 11 x 18 28 x 46 1700 27.9
#6 13 x 19 33 x 48 2500 41.0
#7 7 x 20 18 x 51 800 13.1
#8 7.5 x 28 19 x 71 1250 20.5

[tlbj6142]

What if you don't have your gear yet? I guess its sort of a chicken and egg thing.

We often tell newbies to take all of their gear to the shop and load up a pack to help them determine volume, load transfer, etc. So, what do they use on their pack buying trip? Or do we expect them to decide what food they'll need for 5-day trip before they go on their first overnighter?

Its not a big deal. Just something I'm stuck on at the moment.

[The Solemates]

What if you don't have your gear yet? I guess its sort of a chicken and egg thing.

We often tell newbies to take all of their gear to the shop and load up a pack to help them determine volume, load transfer, etc. So, what do they use on their pack buying trip? Or do we expect them to decide what food they'll need for 5-day trip before they go on their first overnighter?

Its not a big deal. Just something I'm stuck on at the moment.

Do it all in the store. Get pack, gear you want, etc. Bring stuff you already have to the store with you. Bring food. whatever. outfitters dont care, and will be happy to help, especially if youre a newbie who needs all new stuff.

[tlbj6142]

I've always found that 5 days of food fills a #4 OR Stuffbag.
#4 9 x 17 23 x 43 1100 18.0
1100ci for food? That would be one-third of the "typical" 3000-3500 ci bag they most folks recomend for AT hiking. And given that a pack's volume includes outside pockets, etc. It is probably more like one-half of the "main bag".

I have a tough time with this one as I get all of my gear (including 5-days worth of food and 2 qts of water) in 1800ci. But, then, I don't carry 2-3# per day like a "thru-hiker" needs to.

[tlbj6142]

Do it all in the store. Get pack, gear you want, etc. Bring stuff you already have to the store with you. Bring food. whatever. outfitters dont care, and will be happy to help, especially if youre a newbie who needs all new stuff.I don't understand this...

[The Solemates]

1100ci for food? That would be one-third of the "typical" 3000-3500 ci bag they most folks recomend for AT hiking. And given that a pack's volume includes outside pockets, etc. It is probably more like one-half.

I have a tough time with this one as I get all of my gear (including 5-days worth of food and 2 qts of water) in 1800ci. But, then, I don't carry 2-3# per day like a "thru-hiker" needs to.

I would say that 1/3 of my pack is food (if Im carrying for a 5 day trip). For sure. In fact, on a thru-hike, it may be more than 1/3 because thru-hikers are hungry people. then again, I dont really carry a whole lot else other than food besides the basics, so...Im an exception. I only carry something if I use it every day.

[The Solemates]

I don't understand this...

Bring every thing you currently own and are going to take on a thru-hike to the store. Gear that you do not have yet and need to purchase, grab from the store. Put your gear and "borrowed" gear into the pack you are thinking of buying.

whats not to understand?

[tlbj6142]

OK, 1/3 it is. But that would be 1/3 of the main bag, correct? With, or without, extension collar?


I can see 1/3 of the "typical" 3000-3500 (~50-55L) pack's main bag without using the extension collar.

[tlbj6142]

whats not to understand?There is the problem. Most of the outfitters I go to do not sell food. Maybe just mountain house meals.

OK, given this, how many mountain house meals would be a good "dummy load" for 5-days worth of food? 10? That might be enough volume, but no way that's enough weight.

[tlbj6142]

Am I making this too difficult?

[The Solemates]

Am I making this too difficult?

Yes. Go the grocery store and buy food for 5 days. Take that food to the outfitter.

[chris]

If a newbie wants someone to tell him what to do, then here it is: Buy a large silnylon stuff sack. Make it work.

By the way, my food bag is usually about 1/3 the volume of the rest of my gear. In terms of weight, it is usually around 60-75% of my baseweight (12 lb base, another 7-9 lbs of food).

[tlbj6142]

Yes. Go the grocery store and buy food for 5 days. Take that food to the outfitter.I guess the problem I have with this approach is that food (at least for me) is one of those things that took several trips (6-7) before I ever "got it right". And on those first few trips I always had too much food and assumed it would take up far less space in my pack. Furthermore, food tends to be a highly personal piece of "gear". I may eat 20 packs of ramens every day, you might like 1.5# of hard cheese.

Most of us think of this as a trival task because we have already gone through this process. Think of someone who has never gone hiking. What food should they buy before they go to the outfitters? I know if I had took that apporach, I'd would have felt justified in purchasing an Arc'Teryx Bora 80! :D

[The Solemates]

I guess the problem I have with this approach is that food (at least for me) is one of those things that took several trips (6-7) before I ever "got it right". And on those first few trips I always had too much food and assumed it would take up far less space in my pack. Furthermore, food tends to be a highly personal piece of "gear". I may eat 20 packs of ramens every day, you might like 1.5# of hard cheese.

Most of us think of this as a trival task because we have already gone through this process. Think of someone who has never gone hiking. What food should they buy before they go to the outfitters? I know if I had took that apporach, I'd would have felt justified in purchasing an Arc'Teryx Bora 80! :D

For a five day trip, purchase:
Breakfast
6 packs of oatmeal (2 per day for 3 days)
4 pop-tarts (2 per day for 2 days)
3 hot ciders (for the days when you cook oatmeal)
2 large honeybuns (for the days when you eat pop-tarts)

Snack 1
5 granola bars

Lunch
2 7 oz. packets of tuna
2 bags of Ritz crackers
1lb bag of sour candy
1lb bag of fruit chews
2 packs of peanut butter crackers
1lb of raw nut mix
2 pita slices
5 small candy bars

Snack 2
5 large candy bars

Supper
small pack of spaghetti noodles
small pack of dry spaghetti sauce
box of mac-n-cheese
2 Lipton's pasta sides
1 Uncle Ben's rice
5 packs of hot chocolate

Mix and match as necessary.

[tlbj6142]

Interesting list, but at least its a list.

For now I'm leaving food out of the document. And just going to reference other works.

[ToeJam]

Can't wait to see it! I'm looking forward to having all of these beginning basic kinda things up here! :)

Also, I do like to look at other ppl's food lists, altho it's even better with weights etc. I'm sure there must be lots around here but I haven't found them yet, besides Sarge's on his website.

I have to ask tho - hot cider? Is there a dry mix for that must be? I had no clue but it does sounds kinda yummy for a cool night! Or morning for that matter...

[dje97001]

Hey Yellow Jacket, I'd been weighing all of my gear, and then realized that since food takes up such a large chunk of the pack weight, I should probably spend more time looking at various foods. I started buying things that might find themselves in my foodbag and then built this spreadsheet with the items that I've catalogued so far. Of particular importance is calories/weight and carbs, fats, proteins, COST...

I would say that something like this--filled out by anyone with a scale and some camping food (have people take turns adding to it)--posted on the website would be EXTREMELY useful for people planning menus/meals.

I tried to attach it, but the "directory is not writeable." So instead I uploaded it to a geocities account. Here is the link:

http://www.geocities.com/derrick_john/food.xls

[ToeJam]

Very nice! I have something kinda similar but hadn't gotten into nutritional and cost so much since just section hiking for now... I think that would be GREAT for anyone to use! Hmmmmm, that would be great if it could be added onto as we went by WB's for reference for all, but not sure how that would work besides having it up online and ppl submitting new entries to someone willing to keep it up to date. Quite a bit of work but a very useful tool I think!

[chris]

The nutrional information is on the back of packaged food sold in the US. You can simply read it off from there. Cost is usually printed on the packaging as well, or somewhere near by.

I think this is a good idea, but I think it is making an easy thing a little too difficult. Spreadsheets and lists are not going to be super useful in the end, even if it does make people feel more secure. So, with this in, mind here is my method:

Breakfast: Anything not cooked totally 400-500 calories.
PopTart Exception: Due to massive sugar, you need to eat more of these: 2 sleeves per breakfast.

Snack through out the day to the tune of 3000 calories (for example, 6 king size snickers bars).

Dinner: Anything over 1000 calories. If using olive oil, need only hit 800 calories.

Dessert for snacking in camp: 300-400 calories.

Knowing that you need 2 ramens to make a dinner is simply a matter of looking on the back of the ramen package.

In terms of what you buy, just buy what you like to eat normally. If you are buying as you go, and you don't like something, you're not stuck. Just buy something else at the next town.

This isn't rocket science.

[ToeJam]

Hmmm, seems as tho nutritional info would be helpful tho, looking at it from a nutrients vs. weight aspect etc.? And help people to make the best choices for their weight (and money if that is a consideration) - whether they are sneding mail drops or resupplying along the way, they can make better choices (and concessions for things that might not be the best deal but that are worth the hit)

As for buying what you eat normally, that doesn't seem to make sense, to me. Maybe for some (I like to eat Idahoan mashed all year round), but most people are to some extent concerned abotu weight and pack volume so I, even tho newr at this than many, think this info IS and would be helpful to newbies as well as ones who have been out there awhile. For those who have their own system and menu 100% in place, they could and would probably skip it. :)

[dje97001]

Chris, what I think you are missing is that nothing we talk about on this site is rocket science. Every single question covers something that someone on here rolls their eyes at. But that isn't the point. We specifically come here to feel more secure in the decisions we make (or to help others feel more secure in the decisions they make).

Of course anyone can look at the back of the food package to figure out the amount of fat, calories, etc., but the point of these kinds of guides is to give people--who just starting out--information that a number of people on here will think is ridiculously easy, but would nonetheless require a subtantial amount of leg work to collect if they were to try on their own. Hence the notion of a "primer."

For instance, in your post, 3000 cal/day in snacks? 6 king sized snickers... okay, what other options do I have? Yes I could go find out myself from a supermarket, but how awesome would it be to have a collection of all of this information in one place? We all have our favorites and sharing that is something that could be of tremendous value to many people on here.

It isn't rocket science, but you make it sound worthless--which I guarantee it would not be. Who knows, maybe you would even learn something.

[chris]

I disagree. Somethings are rocket science. For example, a technical discussion of the mechanics of a open design alcohol stove vs. a sealed design involves quite a bit of fluid mechanics. Also, things that are not rocket science are not inherently worthless. Going for a walk is not worthless, and certainly isn't rocket science. I like going for walks. I like learning new things too, but try not to clutter my limited brain with assorted junk.

The problem I have with the food list is that it is putting more structure on a problem that doesn't need it. I'm trying to emphasize flexibility and mobility rather than a particular form or algorithm to a solution. So, I gave calorie amounts and general meals, rather than specifics. I included the 6 king size snickers bars as an example. Other options are up to you. Like smoked oysters? Bring smoked oysters. All the nutrional information is already available at the grocery store or gas station where you get your food. Having it in another place might make people feel more secure with taking that first step, but I do not think it actually helps matters.

However, in a more positive note, I would make the suggestion that what would be helpful would be the following: Cooked meal recipes that dehydrate (and rehydrate) well, along with total calories contained. For example, I could list my Bengali Red Lentils Recipe along with total calories. It is a little more difficult to calculate calories totals in this case where you have multiple ingredients and cannot simply read the back of the box. But, since I've stopped dehydrating my own meals, I probably wouldn't get too much out of it.

[dje97001]

I disagree. Somethings are rocket science. For example, a technical discussion of the mechanics of a open design alcohol stove vs. a sealed design involves quite a bit of fluid mechanics. Give me a break.


The problem I have with the food list is that it is putting more structure on a problem that doesn't need it. I'm trying to emphasize flexibility and mobility rather than a particular form or algorithm to a solution. Well, by my estimation, a general food reference list enables extreme flexibility--offers you options?? Anyway, it doesn't matter. If you don't think it will help you... and you don't think that it would help your fellow hikers (because that is after all, all that we are here... hikers)... then don't contribute to it. I would have thought that was obvious. Nothing against you personally, I just think you are assuming that everyone thinks that the way you do things is the best way... people learn and think differently. If it isn't your style, then don't use it.