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jmtnewb
06-07-2011, 03:29
I stumbled across this site tonight as I start serious preparation for a JMT trip this year with my 11yo daughter and my sister. I've done some Sierras hiking before (maybe 15-20 nights total, mostly around New Army pass, Whitney summit from behind, Cottonwood lakes region, and a bit up by Mammoth), mostly in late August. My daughter went over New Army pass last year as her intro to the Sierras and is several inches and a pounds heavier now! She only had 3 nights total, but the last day was 14 miles out through Cottonwood pass and she finished strong and happy. My sister has done lots of hiking in Australia, but none in the Sierras yet.

We have permits for early August for an 18 day trip, departing from Yosemite Valley. I figure we'll take it easy at first (~8 mile days) and gradually ramp up to 12-15 MPD. We'll resupply at every reasonable opportunity and try and keep pack weight really light (< 20lbs + food).

It looks like there is heaps of experience here, so thanks in advance for any advice you might have!

I had a bunch of random questions that I haven't seen answered in a couple of hours browsing - apologies if I missed some of the more common answers!

Questions:

0) any alarm bells ringing already? My wife isn't excited about this trip, and maybe my enthusiasm for it is blinding me to actual problems.

1) any overall advice for hiking the JMT with a near-teen? She's motivated, but niave about what she'll face I'm sure (as am I perhaps!). Last year I worked hard to keep her pack light (~15% body weight / 11 lbs) and frequently fed (2-3 hrs) and rested (every hour) and that seemed to work out pretty well. This year, that will be more of a challenge due to the food requirements of course, aiming for a 15 lb base packweight for her this year to start with.

2) how much leeway is there in our exit date? If we hit Whitney a couple of days late, will we be stopped from summiting?

3) Is asking about walking poles likely to trigger a religious debate? I've always found them to be cumbersome, but others swear by them.

4) Any general guidelines for fitness preparation? I'm 47 and fairly active (bike ~100 miles/week). My daughter is less so. I've been concentrating on getting out for weekend hikes with her in all weather, wearing the gear we plan to take, with the primary goal of identifying badly fitting/peforming items, as well as getting used to them. We've done a couple of 10 mile days with 2k altitude gain, but nothing with full packs yet. We have a shakedown hike in Australia for 5-6 nights in July (winter there) which will almost certainly be wet and cold and I plan on taking all the sierras gear (including bear canisters!) to make it as real as possible -- it will be our first hike with the 3 of us.

5) What questions should I be asking!

I was going to ask about snow in August, but reading about the weather this year, it sounds like its too early to (usefully!) speculate.

Again, many thanks in advance!

Dogwood
06-07-2011, 04:27
220 miles of JMT 18 days alloted time. That's about an avg of 12 MPD everyday for 18 days straight.

Understand you and everyone in your party is making a leap from 3 day outings to now an 18 day outing. You are hiking with a woman and girl. Making some judgements but they don't typically like bugs, dirt, etc. Take bug dope and do laundry, if not for you than them! When hiking with newbies and/or children I really tend to ratchet everything back. I take on a different focus. I'm the trip leader. I'm out there not just for myself anymore! Some newbies and youngsters are ready for longer treks. Some need to be stimulated a bit more to not get bored on 18 day outings. Take your time and be ready to take a day off here or there! They call that a "zero" as in zero mileage day. Mix up the trek! Keep everyone interested. Listen to the members in your party. Feel for where they are at. That's one of your goals! One of my tactics is to informally teach things at a simple level related to botany, geology, trail history, etc. Get your minds and bodies off hiking for a day here and there! Possibly, take a "zero' in Mammoth Lakes off trail, at Vermillion Valley Resort, and/or Muir Trail Ranch, etc. Take along cameras and possibly small UL fishing equipment. Soak in one of the hot springs near the JMT, do laundry, take showers, possibly go for a swim, eat at a restaurant, etc.

Is the 18 days alloted because that's all the time you have or can that time be extended? Here's why I ask. If you need an extra couple of days Rangers are usually flexible. Thay are not usually hard ases. They will let you summit Whitney IF they do happen to examine your permit.

Trekking poles, when usd properly, can take some stress off bodies.

I'm not getting any alarms. But different folks are ready for 18 day length hikes and some are not.

I don't care what anyone might tell you, snow levels on the JMT in Aug, even this yr, is not going to be an issue!

If you can contact Helmuth Fishmonger, I know he is not set up for PM's though here on WB, he has hiked the JMT with his kids. He can offer some solid hiking with kids and a woman advice.

Captain_Slo
06-07-2011, 06:42
220 miles of JMT 18 days alloted time. That's about an avg of 12 MPD everyday for 18 days straight.

Understand you and everyone in your party is making a leap from 3 day outings to now an 18 day outing. You are hiking with a woman and girl. Making some judgements but they don't typically like bugs, dirt, etc.
:eek:

wow.

I'm sure there are lots of women and girls (god forbid) out there who could outhike you.



In my experience hiking with 8-13 y/o girls, they're more capable than you expect. My group could probably pull off 12 mile days, but they'd def. want a zero day here and there.

Sounds like your daughter already has some good trips under her belt. You know her capabilities etc the best.

fiddlehead
06-07-2011, 07:56
Since you're starting with a huge uphill. (the first 2 or 3 days?)
I'd concentrate on getting to Toulumme and possible taking at least a half day off and maybe a full there and re-evaluate.
Or maybe in Red's Meadow. a day or two later.
Break up the trip a little.
it's a huge endeavor for an 11 year old and she may come away from it all hating backpacking if you are not careful here IMO.
I don't envy the problems you are going to have to solve on this trip as you yourself know are most likely going to happen. Mostly people slightly ticked off with the physical stress that you might find enjoyable. It's not for everyone of course.
BUt then again, it is the best hiking in the lower 48 and the raw beauty just might compensate for all the negative vibes from the huge climb you have to start out with.
Try to keep that climb fun somehow and don't let them get discouraged.
Maybe reward their efforts at Tuolloume with a night in a cabin or hotel of some kind with a good restaurant if you can afford it.
Then start again, in shape, acclimated, and ready for the rest of the trip.
Good luck, sorry to rant and get carried away but, i think you will have to be on your toes to make this long trip successful for all.

bigcranky
06-07-2011, 08:14
We took our daughter on 2-3 week hikes when she was 10, 11, and 12. They were on the Southern AT, which meant we had a lot more support, resupply, and bailout options. But anyway I do have some experience with this.

If you start with 5 days at 8 miles per day, that's 40 miles. That leaves you 180 miles to do in 13 days, which is ~13 miles per day. That's not terrible. But....

The biggest red flag that jumps at me is that your schedule doesn't provide much time for a couple of zero days. I like to take one zero for every six days of hiking, and I would plan to be able to take more with a very young hiker. With an 18 day schedule, any short or zero days that you take will just increase the daily mileage required for the hiking days.

This has the potential to be an awesome hike. Just be flexible about the planning and the execution -- and the finish line. My worst tendency as a hiker dad is to set a goal for the day (or the hike) and try to stick to that goal no matter what. That sort of thing motivates me when I am solo, but with my family it tends to turn into a death march. Not fun.

Jim Adams
06-07-2011, 09:08
Too much mileage for days spent. Relax your pace, take time off here and there and enjoy the sites. If you stop and snack everytime you have an incredible view....you will gain weight and only make about 30 miles LOL...just take your time, your daughter can probably hike twice as hard as you think she can but that is not the point here...the point is how much fun she will have. IMO, I would adjust the mileage to make her trip as good as it could be. As Fiddlehead stated, don't make her hate backpacking just because of the pace.

geek

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-07-2011, 10:30
:eek:

wow.

I'm sure there are lots of women and girls (god forbid) out there who could outhike you.




yeah, my daughter probably outhiked him at age 10

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-07-2011, 10:38
Late august is going to be safe, with weather either perfect or just a little chilly at night, depending on the general trends. Your pace is probably fine. The JMT isn't difficult - it's a horse trail. You barely feel the incline. Elevation is the only real issue and if you take some time up front to acclimate (hang in Tuolumne Meadows, or at Reds Meadow, or at Cottonwood Meadows campgrounds for 2-3 days doing warmup hikes), you won't really notice the elevation much, especially when heading southbound like 85% of the rest of the JMT hikers.

My kids have done 20+ mile days at 11 years old, and usually average 15-16 miles per day on the JMT. They did the big distances over the big passes such as Forester. They aren't special, they carried big packs for their size, and at best they were motivated by the big burgers waiting at the end of the trail. Kids are amazing at this, and just because you don't see many of them on the JMT, you shouldn't think they aren't capable to do these things.

Check out the info I have on my web site about the JMT hikes wiht my kids http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/Muir2009/index2010.html

We're heading out again in late July to do a variation of the Sierra High Route (the are 13 now and looking for something a little more challenging than the JMT - teenagers can be so "been there done that" :))

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-07-2011, 10:39
here's what my kids did last summer at age 12

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/Muir2009/calendar/log2010.html

jmtnewb
06-07-2011, 11:33
Wow - what a wonderful mixture of encouragement and real world advice. Thanks all!

I hear you all re distance and timing. I absolutely want to leave the trail with my daughter still loving hiking. Although this will be my first JMT, I'm not (too!) invested in completing it. My sister has done long hikes, so I'm not too worried about her (she's a school teacher and incredibly organized and motivated). And she has heaps of experience with kids this age, which I hope to leverage - though the Aunt-niece relationship will play in there too :-).

We have some buffer - we could extend up to 5 days if need be. Knowing that the rangers are unlikely to kick us off Whitney for being late is a huge relief -- completing the entire distance and summitting is a huge part of this for my daughter (something about bragging rights <g>).

So, I'll pencil in a zero day for Vermillion, and we'll take our time getting to Toulumne and not worry too much about the mileage or lingering there. We have an extra night in the valley to start with, to hopefully kick off acclimation and we'll re-supply at Toulumne to keep pack weight down while getting up the hill.

Thanks all for the links and Helmuth for your encouragement. Yes, I was amazed at what she did last summer. It blew me away how she breezed over New Army pass (esp after some of the complaining on the way up to Muir Lakes the day before, lol) and then doing that long day from Soldier Lake back out to Horsecamp via Cottenwood pass was amazing. I hope(!) that if we take it slow to start with, that her youth and enthusiasm will adapt her far faster than miles of pre-prep walks could, and I expect that by the end she'll be leaving me in the dust! (Which will be when I start putting more weight in her pack, heh heh).

Keep the advice and encouragement coming! I'll share this thread with the crew - only 2 months before we get started and I can hardly wait!!

jmtnewb
06-07-2011, 11:53
Helmuth, wow, I'm nowhere near done browsing through your site, but what a great source of information and inspiration! I'm encouraged by the many similar gear decisions - though still stunned by the mileage!

Did the SPOT work out well for you? That's a non-negotiable add-on from my wife -- and smart too I agree. Did you use the GPS addon? She'd like us to be able to text daily updates (other than the canned "We're ok" button) and I understand the GPS-Spot combo allows that. Is that what you had? Was battery life ok?

thx!

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-07-2011, 13:38
Helmuth, wow, I'm nowhere near done browsing through your site, but what a great source of information and inspiration! I'm encouraged by the many similar gear decisions - though still stunned by the mileage!

Did the SPOT work out well for you? That's a non-negotiable add-on from my wife -- and smart too I agree. Did you use the GPS addon? She'd like us to be able to text daily updates (other than the canned "We're ok" button) and I understand the GPS-Spot combo allows that. Is that what you had? Was battery life ok?

thx!


Spot worked to keep mom happy. We just had the tracking option and turned that on every day. Left a decent online track record for the outside to see what we were up to. Never pressed the OK button, and you don't need a GPS for that. It has it's own GPS. We used the GPS to record out tracks and to do some motivation games to reach milestones, etc. Never really use it for the mapping, because it is virutally impossible for me to get lost on a trail I have done more than a dozen times.

About the only reason I'd bring a SPOT is the tracking and to calm down people at home, because I heard too much about screwups in their relay of location info to Search and Rescue to rely on a rescue actually happening. I realy want more than the one-way only communication without any feedback on your end that a message is being sent or received. My daughter fainted once while sitting down on a rock, and I just caught her from hitting something hard. That's when I REALLY would have liked to talk to a nurse to find out if it's just dehydration or if there's other stuff I should check for.

You don't hit the 911 button for anything but life threatening situations, so what do you do with the in-between stuff? Sometimes a call to a doctor can answer questions you may have and save the trip. Therefore I am going to a sat phone as soon as I can make up my mind between Iridium and the new Inmersat option. I'll still bring the SPOT as long as I have a contract for it, but I won't renew next year.

If you need to motivate the kids - check the book links on blurb below - got a reasonably priced downsized version of the big book we made in 2009 listed there:

paperback http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/2115826

$$ big hardcover version http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/1047557

You can also just page through them online, except they make the preview so small, you can't readn anything but the headlines. Not really an essential addtion to the info you can get on my web site. In fact, if you look at the photo gralleries, you probably get most of the information contained in the books. I'm actually about to make a 2010 book in the coming weeks, again, mosty as a motivator for the kids. The are pretty proud of what they did once they hold a book in their hands that is about their adventure. Grat bragging material to take to a show and tell at school :D

Note that a girl named Sierra hiked the JMT last summer. She celebrated her 7th birthday at Evolution Lake with us. We had a hard time keeping up with her after the Muir Ranch resupply made our packs heavy.

this is her crossing mono creek wtih her mom

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100717/slides/DSC_1407.jpg

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-07-2011, 13:46
Knowing that the rangers are unlikely to kick us off Whitney for being late is a huge relief

even if they did - where are they gonna send you but down the trail you're going to hike anyway? ;)

Permits issued in Yosemite are so vague, you can pretty much go anywhere with them. It states entry trailhead (the one and only thing they really care about), entry date, exit trailhead, anticipated exit date. You can be early and late, and where you go between the two trailheads is totally up to you. Unlike Inyo rangers, they don't seem to want to know your planned route.

Feral Bill
06-07-2011, 14:04
Did the Wonderland Trail with my daughter at barely 10 and small, with a 20 lb pack. At a leisurely pace she had plenty of energy at each days end. Have fun, Take pictures, report back.

FB

tuswm
06-07-2011, 14:20
I just wanted to comment that it looks like at least for the first half of the trail there is plenty of exit points. By half way you will have a good feel for everyones level of enjoyment.

skinewmexico
06-07-2011, 14:38
I just wanted to comment that it looks like at least for the first half of the trail there is plenty of exit points. By half way you will have a good feel for everyones level of enjoyment.

+1. Hike from exit point to exit point, and re-evaluate. Just be prudent.

Dogwood
06-07-2011, 14:47
Absolutely Captain Slo. Females can do just about everything a male can. ABSOLUTLY, hiking capabilities ARE NOT determined by gender! I get outhiked by many woman and even some very young girls. I LONG ago learned when a skinny Pippy Long Stockings looking 12 yr old girl with blazing red hair in pigtails and knee high rainbow colored stockings bebopped by me down the trail like I was standing still, I was not, nor will ever be the fastest hiker nor were hiking capabilities stictly determined by age or gender! I don't have a problem with people, young or old, male or female, going UL or going weighted down with everything from the kitchen with a lit cigarette clenched between their teeth, hiking faster or slower than me or simply out hiking me. I admit I'm not the fastest hiker and I'm not trying to be that! Yeah, Helmuth your 10 old daughter might outhike me. So what! That does not bother me. Let me be crystal clear, I DO NOT HIKE with a competion or male chauvinistic based mindset. INDEED, one of my goals in hiking is to NOT hike out of or with an ego!

My comment was not competion or sexist based. I REALLY was not making my comment about hiking with a woman and 11 yr old from a male chauvinistic pt of view. At the heart of that comment, if you will accept it, and not be offended, is the pt that the trip leader, who ever that may be, male or female, it's my opinion that the trip leader, and in this case it seems Jmtnewb is the trip leader, should be sensitive to the needs, abilities, desires, experience level and experiences of everyone in the hiking party. Examine the substance of my comment. Don't take what I was attempting to convey the wrong way!

BTW, it's not just males or adults who can entertain that competion driven hiking mindset or have HUGE hiking egos. Females and adolescents can adopt that hiking attitude too! I've witnessed it many times! AND, sometimes, it's those who are quick to finger pt who have ego issues themselves!

Let's move on!

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-07-2011, 15:34
At a leisurely pace she had plenty of energy at each days end.

day's end energy:

remember the following things:

2008 - following a nasty day with 6" of hail and life-threatening temps, they both set up a "bowling alley" at 9800 feet and did some glacier polish boulder bowling between marmots for a few hours

2008 as well - chasing dogs and playing resupply bucket frisbee at the Muir Ranch

2010 - with the 6 year old hiker, doing stretching and other gym exercise moves they remembered from back home. Adults were dead, kids kept bouncing around for hours!

add ot that stuff like collecting shiny rocks, rusty horse shoes, and oversized pine cones, carving pencil hoders at camp, fly fishing, etc - they never stop moving. Only mention we are at legal fire altitude and my son will build a bonfire in half an hour. Every time I head out on my own, I really miss their extra-curricular activities. We adults are too darn focused. Gotta learn to play again.

Dogwood
06-07-2011, 16:05
Good advice being given!

I absolutely want to leave the trail with my daughter still loving hiking. - Jmtnewb

This is the goal for not only your daughter but for everyone in your hiking party, including yourself! Always keep it in mind as you plan the hike and execute it! Keep it fun for everyone! I advse you connect the hike with nature and the wilderness and eliciting a greater appreciation, knowledge, and respect of it! Doing this for people at a young age will provide benefits to them throughout their lives!

As everyone is saying, break up the consecutive days of hiking stretches by doing something where your trip is not so focused on MPD/boots on the ground thinking! Sometimes trips need that breath of fresh air where the goal of the day is not centered around MPD but when the main goal is to just have fun, bask, rest, explore, seek adventure, catch a fish, take pictures, become a better photgrapher, converse with people outside your hiking party, look at plants, engage in cloud formation surveys, watch the birds and bears frolic, pehaps a fox too, etc! But, at the same time be sensitive that some in your party may enjoy hiking and hiking and hiking day after day after day.

I REALLY like what SLY, a Triple Crowner thru-hiker, stated here on WB, so accurately, which was obviously gained with an enormous amount of thru-hiking and insightful LIFE experiences, "thru-hiking is not just about hiking!" That statement is HUGE! It can lead to greater creativity and inspiration, IF YOU LET IT!

I'm actually about to make a 2010 book in the coming weeks, again, mosty as a motivator for the kids. The are pretty proud of what they did once they hold a book in their hands that is about their adventure. Great bragging material to take to a show and tell at school :D - Helmuth

I like the idea of a small book for kids, and perhaps adults will enjoy it too!, with lots of colorful pics, showing and describing their trail adventures. GREAT IDEA!

That pic of Sierra on her mom's back is priceless!

The VVR or MTR experience can be a real breath of fresh air on a JMT thru-hike. I've only stopped at MTR twice but have been to VVR 5-6 times. Here's what I like about it and I think all in your party might apprecate. You hike a short spur trail to the Lake Edison shoreline from the JMT tread. You meet up with a ferry(usually a pontoon boat) that whisks you across the lake, which is quite a change from that boots on the ground mentality that develops on a hike. You might see some Bald Eagles or Ospreys on your boat ride. Do you think that may be exciting for everyone in your hiking group! You get to VVR, where you can resupply by buying food(can be pricey!) or picking up a shipped ressupply package. You, and everyone in your party, has the opportunity to shower, do laundry, sit around, check gear, check themselves, re-group, check the internet( be careful though it's pricey!, IMO), make a ph call(also can be pricey!), sleep on a cot in a big canvas tent erected on wooden platforms, make a campfire, fish, rent a boat to take out on the lake, eat some fresh REAL(not dehydrated or freze dried) well prepared(there's a real chef/cook on staff) hiker sized portion meals, watch TV, get a ride down to Mono Hot Springs for a well deserved soak(MHS also has a USPO where you could have sent a resupply package), talk to others outside your party that are vacationers, hikers, and fisherman, etc. The first night is free in the canvas tents to JMT thru-hikers! but spots in the canvas tents are not guaranteed. Aug can get busy. It's my guess if you called ahead of time and explained your situation and that you were with your 11 yr old daughter Jim would try to accomodate you in any way he could! Eat a huge b-fast before taking the ferry back to the JMT in prep for the climb over Bear Mountain.

There are also hot springs at/very near MTR. Some are free. I think some of the hot springs you need to be staying at MTR to use. Although I think Mono has the better hot springs. There's also a warmish spring fed pond tucked away into a willow grove near MTR. Depending on how you arrange your hike stopping at MTR might make for a quicker in and out resupply. It's within a very short walk of the JMT proper or you can take a slightly alternate JMT route to resuply there. You can ship a resupply bucket there. Assuming you could get reservations at MTR I think MTR would probably provide less of that "fun" factor though.

Enjoy the JMT! It's world class GREAT!

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-07-2011, 17:47
Lots of fun to be had on that trail:

bowling at age 10, somewhere below Donohue Pass

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2003/slides/061_bowling_at_11000_feet.jpg

baking mountain no-bake cookies with our neighbors at Reds Meadow campground - yummie

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2005/slides/009_waxpaper_tray.jpg

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2005/slides/008_yummie.jpg

Rainy day layover at Reds - goofing off all day age 10
http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2004/slides/002_goofing_around_with_ali.jpg

get your butt wet during river crossings

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2007/slides/032_whoops.jpg

build fires at 8999 feet sharp:

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2007/slides/040_more_fuel_for_flames.jpg


gummi bears as daily snack, what kid could resist that?

Bucket lid frisbee at the Ranch

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2010/slides/001_bucket_lid_frisbee.jpg

meeting Sally:

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2010/slides/002_meet_sally.jpg

Chasing trout in Evolution Lake

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2011/slides/035_just_before_the_rod_broke.jpg

coolest place for a 10 year old to wake up at:

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2012/slides/042_there_is_life_in_those_bags.jpg

and to have a hot chocolate...

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2012/slides/044_hmm_excellent_steam.jpg

Then they go chasing frogs

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2012/slides/068_the_frog_whisperer.jpg

then there's the always popular snowball fight in July

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2014/slides/018_snowball_fight_taboose_pass.jpg

and nothing beats a day in the pool at the Dow at the end of a long journey

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2008/Day%2015/slides/030_dow_villa_motel_life_is_good.jpg

that was their first big mountain hike, and they did come back. In fact. they were the ones who suggested we go for a JMT yo-yo at age 11...

didn't ever finish the yo-yo, but we had a great time each year we did attempt it.

Dogwood
06-07-2011, 17:58
Those were some great pics! Is that you Helmuth sporting the young Moses in the wilderness look?

If those pics don't stimulate people to take kids out on the trail and connect with wilderness I don't think they will ever get it!

tuswm
06-07-2011, 18:16
:eek:

wow.

I'm sure there are lots of women and girls (god forbid) out there who could outhike you.



I have the same worries, My GF can out hike me any day of the week BUT she never wants to. she would be happy doing 5MPD while I like 20 MPD in the winter. She likes summer. I like UL. She like luxury. Its about how to compromise so that everyone enjoys the hike.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-07-2011, 18:35
Those were some great pics! Is that you Helmuth sporting the young Moses in the wilderness look?



negative - that's one of the many friends we made that year. I think his name was Abdul, "bouncing around on the PCT" for a few weeks.

And Helmuth isn't really my name, but then that's a long story.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-07-2011, 18:38
Is that you

the gang in 2009, now 11 years old, seeking exhileration and inspiration :D

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0719/slides/IMG_1397.jpg

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-07-2011, 18:40
and 20 years earlier, on Mather Pass on my 2nd JMT

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT1989/day%2013/slides/JMT_1989_1622.jpg

jmtnewb
06-07-2011, 18:46
Wow! A flood of info and encouragement and pictures!

@Dogwood - I think I took your original post the right away and it was much appreciated. Others in my party will be looking for different things than me, and I shouldn't forget that. In fact, I think I'll have them all, myself included, write down what it is we hope to get from the trip. It might get us through a rainy day or snowy pass - and make us more mindful of the others in our group.

@Helmuth - thanks for your continued posts. Those pictures are inspiring! Your kids (and you!) are inspiring! Please let them know that my daughter will soon be getting a copy of their (regrettably paperback) book real-soon-now, and I expect her to enjoy it even more than she did Zero Days (about a 10yo girl doing the PCT). (Though she'll have to fight me to read it ;) ).

@skinewmexico @tuswm - Yes, lots of exit points early. That was definitely part of my planning. That generally translates into lots of re-supply points early also, which means less weight while we're getting our trail legs.

@fiddlehead @Jim Adams - I'll be working out where to put zero days. We were thinking in and out at Vermillion, but maybe we'll do two nights, or one of the earlier points -- or decide how we feel when we get there!

@Captain_Slo @bigcranky - good to know there are other "crazy" people out there like me who would even consider taking their young children on such a risky hike! (tongue in cheek - but its what I hear from others sometimes)

@anyone I missed - overwhelmed (in a good way!) by all this feedback. Thanks again!

Dogwood
06-07-2011, 19:23
I got one request Helmuth with a period Fishmonger - consider shortening your trail name! It's too damn long for me to continually type out! LOL For now, it's HF or Helmuth!

Again, good pics of your kids HF. You, I'm not so sure about. Your kids must get their good looks from their mom. LOL!

Good stuff HF!

Captain_Slo
06-07-2011, 20:26
@jmtnewb I take Other Peoples' young children :) I'm a Scout leader. So does that make me DOUBLE crazy? or only HALF as crazy?

jmtnewb
06-07-2011, 23:03
@jmtnewb I take Other Peoples' young children :) I'm a Scout leader. So does that make me DOUBLE crazy? or only HALF as crazy?

It makes you TWICE as VALUED! My sister is a Girl Guides leader (whatever they're called here in USA), and I get a sense from her just how much dedication is needed for that!

It was partly my experience in Scouts and Sea Scouts in Australia as a kid that got me hooked on hiking (tho I always had plenty of encouragement from home too). Hats off to you and your fellow leaders for the service you provide to the next generation of kids!

Dogwood
06-07-2011, 23:11
It took me a while to grasp, but HF you look like that Canadian professional poker player Daniel Negreanu.

Wait, I just did a player profile search. It says here that he also likes to backpack in the Sierras. Who knew? We have a professional poker player in our midst!

ChinMusic
06-07-2011, 23:18
It took me a while to grasp, but HF you look like that Canadian professional poker player Daniel Negreanu.

With the name of The Brat.......

lori
06-07-2011, 23:24
Several things to add:

Has she hit puberty yet? If not, that might ... remote chance... happen out there. If she has, gotta have supplies and figure out how to handle it, have some wet wipes handy, etc.

Start out slow - ascend a couple thousand feet and stay a night, do it again, get to TM and resupply, then stay a night in the backpacker camp (they are loose in that one - thru hikers often stay a night rather than just strictly the day before/day after type permitted backpackers) and walk around for a day, taking in the meadow, getting burgers at the grill. Get a good hearty breakfast at the grill before you get going the next day. Push on up Lyell and camp midway up to Donahue, somewhere in the neighborhood of the headwaters. By the time you hit 10,000 feet acclimation should be a cinch. Learn the symptoms of high altitude sickness and watch for it - better to know what to do and not have it happen, than not know and have a woman or a girl or you, suffering headaches, nausea, or worse and not understand that it could be serious and you need to descend.

After about 4-5 days on the trail you will be doing more miles and doing them easily. The body adjusts. Make sure you have all taken the gear you will use for overnight trips and worn the packs for some 8-10 mile days to make sure they will do the job. Shoes need to be comfy with mileage too - sometimes a problem doesn't make itself known until mile five or so (had that happen with gear).

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-08-2011, 00:35
I got one request Helmuth with a period Fishmonger - consider shortening your trail name! It's too damn long for me to continually type out! LOL For now, it's HF or Helmuth!

Again, good pics of your kids HF. You, I'm not so sure about. Your kids must get their good looks from their mom. LOL!

Good stuff HF!

what is a trail name? purpose? I never understood that part of the long trail hiking crowd.

They do call me Fish around Lone Pine, though - guess that was easier, and since they didn't know the real name from the forums, oh well, I guess it stuck. Not that I care to fish at all - the kids do that. I used that name in a silly online game 10+ years ago for the first time. Now it probably already has a social scurity number

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-08-2011, 00:41
It took me a while to grasp, but HF you look like that Canadian professional poker player Daniel Negreanu.

Wait, I just did a player profile search. It says here that he also likes to backpack in the Sierras. Who knew? We have a professional poker player in our midst!

I suck at poker

jmtnewb
06-08-2011, 01:19
Several things to add:
Learn the symptoms of high altitude sickness and watch for it - better to know what to do and not have it happen, than not know and have a woman or a girl or you, suffering headaches, nausea, or worse and not understand that it could be serious and you need to descend.
.

Lots of great advice in there Lori (apart from the quote above), thanks! IIRC, altitude sickness can happen to anyone, but tends to affect the same people repeatedly. Fingers crossed that there's a genetic component - so far I've always been ok, my daughter was ok last year at 12300 (after nights at 9k and 10k). The only truly unknown is my sister who doesn't get much chance to go to altitude in Australia (its a very flat country)! We'll definitely take it slow going up. A day of burgers at TM sounds good too! (Hmm, where is all that time budget going...)

thanks again!

Buffalo Skipper
06-08-2011, 09:24
I suck at poker

I've heard that from others before. Don't play with him, he's trying to hustle you! ;)

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-08-2011, 12:08
back to the subject - some moments from 2010, now "big kids" at age 11 going for a "yo-yo" of the JMT

Reds Meadow breakfast of champions

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0706/slides/IMG_0415.jpg

one of those moments with twins (he wasn't sharing the big old log he was throwing into the creek)

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0706/slides/IMG_0429.jpg

he's still dominating that log, typical "big" brother pose (he is 2 minutes older after all...)

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0706/slides/IMG_0430.jpg

in the evening, with mashed potatoes and a camp fire, everything was fine again

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0706/slides/IMG_0489.jpg

creepy discovery of some alien bones (at least that was their conclusion after seeing the "skull")

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0707/slides/IMG_0545.jpg


and the "skull" :D

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0707/slides/IMG_0542.jpg

"I dare you" games that get the hair washed

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0708/slides/IMG_0602.jpg


snapping photos of a discovery in Lake T Edison with his phone

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0708/slides/IMG_0615.jpg

Chasing and chatching a blue-bellied Western Fence Lizard while waiting for the ferry

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0708/slides/IMG_0619.jpg

and a boatride is always fun

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0708/slides/IMG_0623.jpg

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-08-2011, 12:16
making more friend, this time at VVR

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0708/slides/IMG_0635.jpg

walking across a big dam at sunset is quite the adventure - I certainly never did that at that age, especially when it appears not to be allowed :D

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0708/slides/IMG_0640.jpg

on slow days you have time to practice how to skip stones across Bear Creek

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0709/slides/IMG_0648.jpg


then you pose as if you're scared to cross creeks on big logs

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0709/slides/IMG_0668.jpg

bringing their favorite foods always helps -

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0710/slides/IMG_0692.jpg

All she needs to be happy is a few horses nearby - "dad, can I get a summer job here?"

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0710/slides/IMG_0722.jpg

Later that day we fixed this sun dial

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0711/slides/IMG_0735.jpg

Collecting wild onion to kick up the ramen noodles a few notches later that evening (these are STRONG - if you use them, don't overdo it...)

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0711/slides/IMG_0735.jpg

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-08-2011, 12:25
oops - here is the onion shot

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0712/slides/IMG_0776.jpg

and once in a while the hike itself becomes the most spectacular thing you can do

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0712/slides/IMG_0816.jpg

idle hands are the...

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0716/slides/IMG_1147.jpg

oh - and don't ever forget to bring their best buddies along - this is Mousie, and I have been to many places with Mousie by myself so that the kids have at least one of their best friends accompany me on my solo trips

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0717/slides/IMG_1166.jpg

Alfalfa, her small pony, also has been to many high places

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0717/slides/IMG_1210.jpg

And then there's the trip itself - places like this soon become their favorite memories

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0717/slides/bighorn_plateau_stitch.jpg

and a the end there's this waiting for them

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2009/0719/slides/IMG_1404.jpg

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-08-2011, 12:37
now some from 2010 - starting another yo-yo attemt with the hike to Yosemite Valley from Tuolumne and back up. Day one was perfect for the first camp fire:

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100709/slides/DSC_0206.jpg

then we met this teddy bear somewhere near Clouds Rest Trail turnoff

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100710/slides/DSC_0293_crop.jpg

which was pretty exciting, but they've seen so many bears by now, they know they aren't really a big deal. The rattle snake lounging right on the trail a little higher up was a much bigger "woah!" moment

On their third JMT, they are now old pros with stuff like "douse it, stir it, touch it" - the rangers would be proud of them

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100710/slides/DSC_0313.jpg


How many kids their age already find it normal that deer walk past them on a daily basis, this close?

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100711/slides/DSC_0343.jpg


Her new friend Harley, working to clear the trail over Cathedral pass for the season

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100711/slides/DSC_1031.jpg

then they were building miniature shelters during a rain delay

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100712/slides/DSC_1058.jpg

now old enough to run the kitchen below Banner and Ritter

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100713/slides/DSC_1164.jpg

and you can't beat a cool camp site like Island Pass, even if it got freezing cold at night

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100714/slides/DSC_1178.jpg


and another root beer breakfast at Reds... now it's tradition

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100715/slides/DSC_1241.jpg

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-08-2011, 12:49
back to our skeleton site at Lake of the Lone Indian

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100717/slides/DSC_1339.jpg

gummi bears on Silver Pass

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100717/slides/DSC_1363.jpg

a little later that day it paid of to be experienced - the crossings down from Silver Pass were all more than a rookie would want to deal with, at any age

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100717/slides/DSC_1396.jpg

On the same section they made friends with a much younger JMT hiker
http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100717/slides/DSC_1420.jpg

exchanging trail notes?

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100717/slides/DSC_1412.jpg

too much energy

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100718/slides/DSC_1459.jpg

On Selden Pass he invents the Gatorade Slushy

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100719/slides/DSC_1487.jpg


at MTR, Sally the dog still enjoys a game of bucket lid frisbee

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100720/slides/DSC_1509.jpg

Those big crossings still aren't their favorite moments
http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100720/slides/DSC_1551.jpg

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-08-2011, 13:05
Big fires are useful to warm back up after a cold crossing

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100720/slides/DSC_1559.jpg

water coming right out of the side of the mountain is always welcome for a quick drink

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100721/slides/DSC_1600.jpg

this happens even to old pros once in a while

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100721/slides/DSC_1633.jpg

early season adventure again - where did that trail just go?

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100722/slides/DSC_2049.jpg

this one wants to get back to his 1 million buddies in the lake nearby

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100722/slides/DSC_2066.jpg

Mousie was part of the team again in 2010
http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100723/slides/DSC_2099.jpg

and they have pretty opionated bear canisters...

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100723/slides/DSC_2284.jpg

pigging out on Glen Pass

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100726/slides/DSC_2407.jpg

later this summer we'll be walking on the ridge behind him in this 2010 photo from below Forester

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100727/slides/DSC_2473.jpg

show of hands

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100727/slides/DSC_2514.jpg


on top of the crest with Mousie, just before the storms rolled in

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100728/slides/DSC_2563.jpg

and this time it was a Mooseburger for the boy -and he ate the whole thing!

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/gallery/JMT2010/20100728/slides/DSC_2585.jpg

ChinMusic
06-08-2011, 13:08
Great family pics there HF. Taking my daughter this summer......but she is 27.

You have convinced me to bring a fill flash.

Blissful
06-08-2011, 13:12
The pictures are great but suggest posting them in the photo gallery and link back b/c of bandwith issues etc. for this site. Or check with an administrator on that.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
06-08-2011, 14:56
The pictures are great but suggest posting them in the photo gallery and link back b/c of bandwith issues etc. for this site. Or check with an administrator on that.

they are hosted on my server.

want to see them all (this is just a tiny fraction) check here:

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/index.html JMT is in the middle of the page somewhere, still gonna add a few more whenever I get through the old slides from the 80s and 90s.

English Stu
06-08-2011, 16:01
I would certainly visit VVR if finance allows.We camped very near the pontoon so got the ferry early, there can be queue. Had our only zero day there .Managed 2 good meals and breakfast next day before leaving. Ask them to shuttle you to the Bear trail at the end of the Dam.Visit the very close hot springs behind MTR. A bit muddy but there is a clear pool adjacent.Go to MTR to check out the hiker buckets.Check out the YahooJMTgroup for latest info,I understand there is still lots of snow this year and the stream crossings are deeper than usual right now.

Dogwood
06-08-2011, 16:28
I wish you would set up to receive PMs or email Fish.

I would like to ask you some questioins or make some comments but not particularly pertaining to this thread. I would prefer that this excellent thread stay on topic for those wishing to hike in the Sierras with young hikers without expoloring in depth tangents.

But, here goes. It's one of my life goals to get folks more connected with nature, hiking, and the outdoors. Enriching and establishing that connection at a young age seems very important. Tell me more about that book to motivate kids to get outdoors and hike! How is it being formulated? with lots of outdoor and hiking pics with captions like you are sharing here? Feel free to PM or email me.

"I'm actually about to make a 2010 book in the coming weeks, again, mosty as a motivator for the kids. The are pretty proud of what they did once they hold a book in their hands that is about their adventure. Grat bragging material to take to a show and tell at school :D" - Helmuth.Fishmonger

BJStuart
01-13-2012, 16:52
they are hosted on my server.

want to see them all (this is just a tiny fraction) check here:

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/outdoor/index.html JMT is in the middle of the page somewhere, still gonna add a few more whenever I get through the old slides from the 80s and 90s.

Love your pictures - just showed them to my daughters. We're planning to do the JMT in 2014, when they'll be 11 & 13. Till then we'll make do with the AT ;)
Quick question - how do your kids like the Osprey packs? Are they the 35l or 48l versions? I'm thinking that those would be good for my girls.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
01-19-2012, 00:32
Love your pictures - just showed them to my daughters. We're planning to do the JMT in 2014, when they'll be 11 & 13. Till then we'll make do with the AT ;)
Quick question - how do your kids like the Osprey packs? Are they the 35l or 48l versions? I'm thinking that those would be good for my girls.

The Ospreys were their choice among several packs we ordered. It beat out an REI brand pack, a North Face Pack and a Gossamer Gear bag (won't really call that a pack). It's a bit small once the Bearikade goes in, but for a summer trip with me carrying the bulky parts of the tent, it wasn't a problem, and I bet even now that they are 14, we'll be using these for their next trip. They are the 48L model, tough little packs, light and still rigid enough so you don't have to mess with a foam pad to keep the bag from collapsing, etc.

We may be out next summer again - to do either the Sierra High Route, or a custom route from north to south using our own variations of the JMT to see places we haven't seen yet, or simply to visit old favorites again. Last summer turned out to be rather dull - first time since 2007 they didn't do a JMT hike.