View Full Version : hmmmm. is this legal?
Lone Wolf
06-10-2011, 15:29
http://www.trailplace.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3800
Hmmm... it says its an organized event, so I'd wager they aren't compliant with current regulations. I'm certain they would need permission from the Forest Service or something along those lines. But I'm just speculating - I have no idea if its legal or not.
Yes, I agree...It does sound "Organized" and probably should be looked at from the stand-point of permit eligibility. Though the nature of the cause might be a just one. However, I wouldn't want to see this kind of event with a large group scheduled regularly on the A/T. Are we as hikers supposed to "give way" when they approach? I hope that I am wrong but, the runners probably won't have any concern for anything but the "Race" and ignore the rights-of-way of others who use the trail. Step aside?
mweinstone
06-10-2011, 16:15
i like it. a fine use of trail. and no, they wont make u step aside. the law is whoever has a pack in that situation goes first. sounds exstremly respectable and silly suggestions they need a permit or permission would be easily answered by asking them. i doubt they organized knowing they could be stopped. rather, im sure their all responsible adults being respectful of all. how can i know this? duh. they have a run for kids with troubles. duh. sheesh. that actually makes them saints working for saints. you messin wit dat?
mweinstone
06-10-2011, 16:17
i think somebody named lwolf needs a kiss.
Cookerhiker
06-10-2011, 16:20
Don't think it's necessarily illegal but I wouldn't give this group any special treatment or consideration beyond that afforded any other trail users.
And I note they're running all night. I'd be pretty PO'ed if they disturbed hikers/campers while sleeping, whether at shelters or camped in tents/hammocks. Common courtesy dictates they should slow down and go quietly when approaching shelters in the dark.
Also while their cause is admirable, I'd be more impressed with them if they gave back in some way e.g. donated a token portion of their proceeds to the GATC. But I'm not holding my breath on that one. I may be pessimistic but they strike me as the types who take the Trail for granted.
If one of them falls and gets injured, I sure hope we don't hear whining about trail conditions, especially Georgia which is one of the best-maintained sections in the entire AT corridor.
blueridgetreks
06-10-2011, 16:30
i like it. a fine use of trail. and no, they wont make u step aside. the law is whoever has a pack in that situation goes first. sounds exstremly respectable and silly suggestions they need a permit or permission would be easily answered by asking them. i doubt they organized knowing they could be stopped. rather, im sure their all responsible adults being respectful of all. how can i know this? duh. they have a run for kids with troubles. duh. sheesh. that actually makes them saints working for saints. you messin wit dat?
5 people, good cause, let 'em run, we have enough bureaucracy!! 100's of runners, different story, starts affecting the Leave No Trace Principals.
mweinstone
06-10-2011, 16:31
Don't think it's necessarily illegal but I wouldn't give this group any special treatment or consideration beyond that afforded any other trail users.
And I note they're running all night. I'd be pretty PO'ed if they disturbed hikers/campers while sleeping, whether at shelters or camped in tents/hammocks. Common courtesy dictates they should slow down and go quietly when approaching shelters in the dark.
Also while their cause is admirable, I'd be more impressed with them if they gave back in some way e.g. donated a token portion of their proceeds to the GATC. But I'm not holding my breath on that one. I may be pessimistic but they strike me as the types who take the Trail for granted.
If one of them falls and gets injured, I sure hope we don't hear whining about trail conditions, especially Georgia which is one of the best-maintained sections in the entire AT corridor.
id give em the shirt off my back. or anyone. for any reason. any time. your not pessimistic. i dont know what weve become. but why aint this about the suffering in the world and how our trail has been healing for decades? i know my friend paragrin who wrote dead men hike no trails agrees with me. i know the kids agree. their parents are happy. why so glum over here on a site where hikers hang out?
Normally, an organized event would require a permit, but 5 people running is probably below the threshold.
I've run with a group of 5 people from Springer to Neels before and we hardly considered it an organized event.... just a few folks out for a trail run.
On the other hand, the JFK 50 miler which is the largest 50 mile race in the Country, uses a part of the AT and I'm pretty sure they have to get a special permit. I would not want to be a hiker in the area when the JFK race is going on.
Dances with Mice
06-10-2011, 18:06
Legal? Sounds like it and if its not then which laws are being broken and who should enforce them? The Sheriff of Union County ain't going out to bust no trail runners, I guarantee that.
Ain't a commercial use. Won't disturb anyone at nite unless the runners detour through a shelter area since all GA shelters are set back from the Trail.
Last year, or was it 2 years ago?, a Company of soldiers hiked in formation on the GA AT. 5 runners won't do no harm.
Thanks Matty for your sober response!!!!
kayak karl
06-10-2011, 20:24
5 people, good cause, let 'em run, we have enough bureaucracy!! 100's of runners, different story, starts affecting the Leave No Trace Principals.
what is the magic number you stop them from doing this????????????
Wise Old Owl
06-10-2011, 20:26
Don't care either way.
Skidsteer
06-10-2011, 21:02
Camp Twitch and Shout. I love that name.
I hope they have a great run, and the kids that benefit have an awesome camp.
I'm just going hiking on the AT by myself, for myself this weekend.
Chubbs4U
06-10-2011, 22:32
From what I have read it seems some of "us" think the trail is "theirs" and that others cant use it. I dont get that at all. Why would it be illegal for some people to "run" on a trail that is public property? Isnt running just faster hiking? Were still in America right? Someone said I hope they dont disturb people in the shelters? Why would they do that? Are "trail runners' the new Hells Angels? I think its great that more and more people are experiencing the trail. As long as they arent destroying the trail then whats the problem?
Illegal? Perhaps, if the group decided to mine for quartz along the way.
Since when is eating Crispy Cremes a humanitarian cause?
I think this crosses a line.
it says there will be a "A handful of runners ".
dosen't sound like trouble to me.
Panzer
Cookerhiker
06-11-2011, 11:52
From what I have read it seems some of "us" think the trail is "their's" and that others can't use it. I don't get that at all. Why would it be illegal for some people to "run" on a trail that is public property? Isn't running just faster hiking? We're still in America right? Someone said I hope they don't disturb people in the shelters? Why would they do that? Are "trail runners' the new Hells Angels? I think it's great that more and more people are experiencing the trail. As long as they aren't destroying the trail then what's the problem?
As the "someone" who referred to "disturbing" hikers in shelters, let's set the context: I never even hinted that they'd deliberately a la Hells Angels harass or disturb hikers. Nor did I aver that it's "my" trail and they had no right to it. Of course they do; as you said, they're just "fast hikers." Fine - nothing wrong per se.
These folks are running all night including when hikers are likely sleeping. It's just inevitable that when a group even as small as 5 happens upon a shelter at 1 AM, they will disrupt the scene however unintentionally unless they make an effort to keep quiet. Have they thought of this?
Rain Man
06-11-2011, 12:00
If they really want to do the right thing, the right way, they'll ask the ATC if any sort of permit or permission is required, up front. Maybe, maybe not.
Rain Man
.
what is the magic number you stop them from doing this????????????
From a LNT perspective, if I'm not mistaken groups of more than 25 are frowned upon. Legally, I would think it's up to the forest manager.
why would it be illegal?
What, no imagination?
max patch
06-11-2011, 12:20
So the guy who openly breaks the rules in the GSMNP has a problem with 5 guys running the trail? Give me a f'n break.
Outrageous. Five guys running the trail for a cause. Book em Dano.
IMO hardly stands up as a permit type event. This is national forest. As long as it is not commercial, there aren't too many rules.
So the guy who openly breaks the rules in the GSMNP has a problem with 5 guys running the trail? Give me a f'n break.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with your first statement, but haven't seen any one in this thread oppose the run.
WILLIAM HAYES
06-11-2011, 15:56
another cause-give me a break-there are other places to run
No one will hear these guys passing through in the night. They'll be focused on the run and very little conversation. You'll never know they were out there.
I can't imagine h0w this would be illegal, however I am not a bureaucrat with nothing but time & imagination to figure out how to empower myself through the loss of liberties of the populace.
Lone Wolf
06-11-2011, 16:11
So the guy who openly breaks the rules in the GSMNP has a problem with 5 guys running the trail? Give me a f'n break.
what guy?.....
......IMO hardly stands up as a permit type event. This is national forest. As long as it is not commercial, there aren't too many rules.
Actually it's a National Park. I don't know the regulations, but I doubt if either agency has regulations that would make the proposed activity illegal. But national parks and forests have sharply different functions and many differing regulations.
The AT is perennially short of the funds needed for proper maintenance and managagement. Personally, I only support fundraising efforts that use the trail if the funds go to ATC or to one of the 30 maintaining clubs.
Apparently childhood obesity isn't one of their causes.
why would it be illegal?
Well, to start with, did they complete an environmental impact statement? Obtain the necessary local, state, and federal permits? Hire a law firm and obtain liability insurance? Is it open to Hispanic-Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and arthritic left-handed Albanians? What about the course? Is it handicapped accessable? Is the money in a proper interest-bearing account and subject to public audit? Do they have Sierra Club approved Port-A-Potties? Did they check with Emerald to make sure the course won't disturb the nesting grounds of the migrating Yellow-Bellied Fruit Sucker? What about law enforcement? Has everyone been checked and approved by Homeland Security to make sure there are no terrorists racing? Medical care available every 200 yards? Will the race cross any county or state lines and how to handle that should one of the runners be carrying a concealed weapon?
Sorry I think I misread the article. I somehow got the impression they were being sponsored by Krisy Kremes etc. My bad. Still, I don't think a high daily calorie burn is ever a licence for poor nutrition. Its always ironic that when promoting one cause people often endorse one or more vices in the process. I still think they are going about this the wrong way. Would have been better to get some of these Tourettes kids out on the trail for some simple hiking and picnicing. Simple natural and healthy living. That is what should be promoted. People seem to use these causes just to draw attention to themselves. Misguided, at best, in my opinion. Not what nature trails should be used for. Sends the wrong message.
Skidsteer
06-11-2011, 16:48
Well, to start with, did they complete an environmental impact statement? Obtain the necessary local, state, and federal permits? Hire a law firm and obtain liability insurance? Is it open to Hispanic-Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and arthritic left-handed Albanians? What about the course? Is it handicapped accessable? Is the money in a proper interest-bearing account and subject to public audit? Do they have Sierra Club approved Port-A-Potties? Did they check with Emerald to make sure the course won't disturb the nesting grounds of the migrating Yellow-Bellied Fruit Sucker? What about law enforcement? Has everyone been checked and approved by Homeland Security to make sure there are no terrorists racing? Medical care available every 200 yards? Will the race cross any county or state lines and how to handle that should one of the runners be carrying a concealed weapon?
Now that was funny.
Nothing wrong with the cause, or trail running. I just think they are promoting themselves, instead of their cause, or the trail. Maybe instead they should consider a Stations-Of-The-Cross-A-Thon, and fuel their run with Chocolate Easter Bunnies.
generoll
06-11-2011, 18:32
Actually it's a National Park. I don't know the regulations, but I doubt if either agency has regulations that would make the proposed activity illegal. But national parks and forests have sharply different functions and many differing regulations.
Pretty sure this is National Forest land down here.
Carl in FL
06-11-2011, 18:56
Now that was funny.
Yes it was. Darn near wet myself with that Yellow-Bellied Fruit Sucker thing.
assuming there regulations about these things, can anybody cite the regulation that would make this illegal?
Panzer
better yet, can anybody state a reason why we should give a shiznit?
Sierra Echo
06-11-2011, 19:59
One of em pooped out at Neels Gap today. I saw it happen with my very own eyes. That means less impact on the trail from Neel's Gap to wherever they were heading, I forget!
One of em pooped out at Neels Gap today. I saw it happen with my very own eyes.
Geez, you think they would have used a privy. :D
Sierra Echo
06-11-2011, 20:11
Geez, you think they would have used a privy. :D
LMAO~! Thats horrible, Sly!
Well, to start with, did they complete an environmental impact statement? Obtain the necessary local, state, and federal permits? Hire a law firm and obtain liability insurance? Is it open to Hispanic-Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and arthritic left-handed Albanians? What about the course? Is it handicapped accessable? Is the money in a proper interest-bearing account and subject to public audit? Do they have Sierra Club approved Port-A-Potties? Did they check with Emerald to make sure the course won't disturb the nesting grounds of the migrating Yellow-Bellied Fruit Sucker? What about law enforcement? Has everyone been checked and approved by Homeland Security to make sure there are no terrorists racing? Medical care available every 200 yards? Will the race cross any county or state lines and how to handle that should one of the runners be carrying a concealed weapon?
John. I greatly doubt if very many of your sacastic comments are even remotedly likely to be reflected by regulations, if any, dealing with non profit groups sponsoring trail runners as a way to raise money.
Even sacasm needs at least a little in the way of evidence, unless you are deliberately trying to spread false impressions about the National Park Service, the Sierra Club and other groups, individuals, and agencies.
I think it was meant to be humor Weary. :p
Lighten up Francis.
I think it was meant to be humor Weary. :p
Lighten up Francis.
Some people find sacasm about groups that are commonly being attacked in public forums by the ignorant to be humorous. I don't.
Skidsteer
06-11-2011, 22:28
Well, to start with, did they complete an environmental impact statement? Obtain the necessary local, state, and federal permits? Hire a law firm and obtain liability insurance? Is it open to Hispanic-Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and arthritic left-handed Albanians? What about the course? Is it handicapped accessable? Is the money in a proper interest-bearing account and subject to public audit? Do they have Sierra Club approved Port-A-Potties? Did they check with Emerald to make sure the course won't disturb the nesting grounds of the migrating Yellow-Bellied Fruit Sucker? What about law enforcement? Has everyone been checked and approved by Homeland Security to make sure there are no terrorists racing? Medical care available every 200 yards? Will the race cross any county or state lines and how to handle that should one of the runners be carrying a concealed weapon?
Even sacasm needs at least a little in the way of evidence, unless you are deliberately trying to spread false impressions about the National Park Service, the Sierra Club and other groups, individuals, and agencies.
You mean evidence like liability insurance, handicap accessibility regulations, and equal opportunity?
mweinstone
06-12-2011, 07:08
if a tree falls on the appalachian trail, do hikers blog about it?.....yes they do.
weary, if somebody pisses in your wheaties every morning, maybe you should just stop eating wheaties. just sayin'.
Wise Old Owl
06-17-2011, 20:22
if a tree falls on the appalachian trail, do hikers blog about it?.....yes they do.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=tree+falls+on+tent&view=detail&id=7611C8E325494FF447B69AC73BF01692AFCFD818&first=0&FORM=IDFRIR
http://www.salem-news.com/stimg/june222007/tree_limb_on_tent.jpg
It sounds legal. Unless there is a group number overuse provision. Usually race organizers register and notify the USFS,
highway patrol or whoever to avoid problems and for traffic control at road junctions if needed. I was involved in adventure racing here in MO in conservation area and USFS land and we notified everyone and sought their assistance. Also for GPS coordinates and landing areas if racers got injured. We hiked on the SHT after a marathon last fall the day after the marathon on the SHT and maybe found one piece of trash. Racers were very responsible. Having been an adventure racer, I can tell you there is no way I would run over a backpacker. Racers give way around hikers, families and horses, etc. They do not want to get injured or injure others and understand that the trail is not exclusive to the race. If not, they should.
Karl Meltzer
12-06-2011, 18:02
I think it can be organized, however, if the group is running/hiking, the trail and these folks pay someone for support, (like a race), then they need a permit to "have a race". If I got together say 100 of my friends and we "raced" down the AT, I would think it's totally legal if noone spends a dime, even if we are crewed, because these "runners", such as myself are "hiking/running" the AT just like anyone who thru-hikes. The said 100 runners would end up separating quite fast, making multiple solo attempts. When I ran the AT in 2008, I did approach the ATC, they didn't say much. Then when the National Park Service got wind of it, they contacted me about what I was doing. I simply asked them if I was violating any policies, or if it was ok to run the AT on my own? they said, "yes", you can hike the AT alone, there are no "closed" areas or private land etc. Sometimes trails and FS regulations say that we can only have "groups" of 12 or maybe 25 without a permit. How do we get around that? We all start 1 minute apart, then we have 100 people starting close to the same time, but not together.
Impact wise, there is less impact with "runners" than backpackers while on the trail. The key is for the "crew" to not create impact. I think that's where there is a fine line. I guess I'm saying, if the trail is NOT closed, then it's open to everyone. Look at how many folks doublecross the Grand Canyon....alot, and there are no issues with impact. We just can't organize a race on it, which is fine by me. It's all mumbo jumbo, hike or run your own hike/run. That's what it's all about.
http://www.trailplace.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3800
Normally, an organized event would require a permit, but 5 people running is probably below the threshold.
I've run with a group of 5 people from Springer to Neels before and we hardly considered it an organized event.... just a few folks out for a trail run.
On the other hand, the JFK 50 miler which is the largest 50 mile race in the Country, uses a part of the AT and I'm pretty sure they have to get a special permit. I would not want to be a hiker in the area when the JFK race is going on.
Then just dont hike when JFK is going on because they have a very fixed schedule.
From what I have read it seems some of "us" think the trail is "theirs" and that others cant use it. I dont get that at all. Why would it be illegal for some people to "run" on a trail that is public property? Isnt running just faster hiking? Were still in America right? Someone said I hope they dont disturb people in the shelters? Why would they do that? Are "trail runners' the new Hells Angels? I think its great that more and more people are experiencing the trail. As long as they arent destroying the trail then whats the problem?
Great point of view.
As the "someone" who referred to "disturbing" hikers in shelters, let's set the context: I never even hinted that they'd deliberately a la Hells Angels harass or disturb hikers. Nor did I aver that it's "my" trail and they had no right to it. Of course they do; as you said, they're just "fast hikers." Fine - nothing wrong per se.
These folks are running all night including when hikers are likely sleeping. It's just inevitable that when a group even as small as 5 happens upon a shelter at 1 AM, they will disrupt the scene however unintentionally unless they make an effort to keep quiet. Have they thought of this?
You are not serious ,are you?
What disturbance is running to campers along the way?
even if any disturbance happens it would be just a second. they are not out of control herd of buffalos for god sake!!!
Well, to start with, did they complete an environmental impact statement? Obtain the necessary local, state, and federal permits? Hire a law firm and obtain liability insurance? Is it open to Hispanic-Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and arthritic left-handed Albanians? What about the course? Is it handicapped accessable? Is the money in a proper interest-bearing account and subject to public audit? Do they have Sierra Club approved Port-A-Potties? Did they check with Emerald to make sure the course won't disturb the nesting grounds of the migrating Yellow-Bellied Fruit Sucker? What about law enforcement? Has everyone been checked and approved by Homeland Security to make sure there are no terrorists racing? Medical care available every 200 yards? Will the race cross any county or state lines and how to handle that should one of the runners be carrying a concealed weapon?
Daer John B
I am just hopeful that you are not an AT official and other ATC members do not think like you.
Wise Old Owl
12-06-2011, 21:05
Thanks Matty for your sober response!!!!
Nah mate - he finally figured out how to install spell check - wait a little later in the night...:rolleyes::D
Yes I am kidding.....
Wise Old Owl
12-06-2011, 21:08
Some people find sacasm about groups that are commonly being attacked in public forums by the ignorant to be humorous. I don't.
And you live in Maine? Wow - I get it.
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Throw another log on the fire - lets chew on this....
Alpine Jack
12-06-2011, 21:47
Karl and matthewski (legends in their own ways) finally brought some common sense to the discussion. Lighten up, less bureaucracy please.
Wise Old Owl
12-06-2011, 21:53
Erin this is an old thread - Why did you dig it up again? just asking.
Erin this is an old thread - Why did you dig it up again? just asking.
Six month old thread. Time to let it go back to sleep.
http://sleepzine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/homer_sleep.gif