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shades of blue
02-02-2005, 08:48
I just read the stealth thread, so I want to make this clear...I'm not trying to be illegal here.
I hope to be going through the Whites this summer and am curious about the options other than the huts. Are there places to camp/hammock other than the huts with the regulations of the whites? Are there certain stretches that it will be unpractical to camp except using pay sites/huts? I know that if there are other sites, you may not want to list them because of not wanting the AMC to know about theses places. If you would, please PM me through White Blaze if you know, and are willing to share sites.

On a side note, if I am starting at Pine Grove Furnance in Penn. and I am up to hiking speed by the whites, what is a good average to expect/plan for through the whites? The ATC says to expect 8 to 10 miles per day, is this accurate?

Thanks!

rickb
02-02-2005, 09:46
In the Whites you can camp:

!.. At Huts
2. At a designated site with shelter, tent platforms and caretaker
3. At a legal off trail site, typically 1/4 Mile from a road, hut or caretaker site and always below treeline (Where trees are less than 8 feet tall
4. At an illegal site off trail

Logistically, the area is a bit more difficult than elsewhere, but more than anything else its confusing. The formal rules are here:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/white/recreation/land_above/backcountry_rules.html

These rules are difficult to absorb even if you have been camping in the area for decades. For example, in the written brochure, the blanket 200 foot from a trail or water rule is clearly a LNT suggestion and not a regulation. With the online version you really need to read carefully to come to that conclusion. In any event, with the exception of the rule about not camping above treeline, most of the "Forest protection areas" are marked by a sign. In other words, you will pass a FPA sign at the 1/4 mile mark before any road or hut or formal campsite.

Its easy to not stay at most huts--you will always be welcome to stop in during the day, however. Many thru hikers consider a hut stay a must part of their experience, and will do a "work for stay".

There is one hut which proves rather attractive for logistical reasons-- Lakes of the Clouds. Since it is in the middle of the longest stretch of Trail above treeline (Basically between Mitzpah and Maddison), it can be very tempting to stay there-- especially if the weather is bad. Many don't, but they need to plan thier starting point and ending point carefully for a long and magnificent day above tree line. While Wolf has found a stealth near the Hut, don't count on it! Being aboove treeline, you might find yourself walking a long way down hill for a spot.

Even that hut can be bypassed with a bit of planning on where you will stay that day, however. The Perch to the North is a great option for thru hikers-- even though it is off trail quite a ways, it is a magnificent walk.

The caretaker shelter/tent platform sites can be avoided as well. I almost never stay in them. As a thru hiker who want to make miles, carrying water to your site would probably be neccessary, as would a bit of creativity to find a flat enough spot in some stretches-- a hammock camper must have a lot of advantages. It can be a real challenge to find a good tentsite in some places. Note that said "good" spot. Flat, attractive places along the trail which comply with LNT guidelines can take some work to find in places. I liked the pay shelter/tent platforms as a thru hiker-- they are in some great locations and have water. I woud keep my options open and have $8 a night budgetted as an optional expense.

Between route 2 (I think), Gorham and Maine (the stretch with Mahoosuc Notch), the Trail is a very thin corridor, and camping is illegal everywhere except at the designated campsites.

As for pace, I think 8 to 10 miles a day in the Whites sounds about right. Its an area that should be enjoyed, and does not walk all that fast.

RIck B

hungryhowie
02-02-2005, 10:05
As far as where you can camp, Rick already covered that, but as far as mileage, 8-10mpd is not unreasonable by any means.

My hiking days were between 16-20 most days before the whites. When I hit the Whites my mileage dropped to about 10-14 per day. It was a noticable and sudden drop. It get's a bit easier after the Whites, and you get stronger too. By central Maine I was back up to about 15-18 per day. I probably could have managed my old 16-20mpd by that point, but it's so beautiful I just felt like spending more time in the woods, so I slowed down a bit.

-howie

Mouse
02-02-2005, 10:09
I could not help noticing that all of the "Protected areas" were surrounding a hut or campsite, giving the impression that the only thing really being protected was the profit margin of the AMC. (Of course that is only an impression, but....)

poison_ivy
02-02-2005, 10:32
Your question has been well covered by Rick... I just wanted to add that there are legal stealth sites that are just over a 1/4 mile away from at least some of the huts (I know of spots near a couple of them...) that are easy to find if you know where to look. The best thing to do is ask other hikers (or even staff at the huts... the staff at one hut directed me to one legal campsite) if they know of any sites while you're out on the trail.

The only hut I've ever stayed in is Carter... & that's because it's self service and a lot cheaper than the others, but I usually stay at the designated campsites. I'm not sure if you want to avoid the huts & campsites because you don't want to pay or whether you want more solitude. If you're concerned about the money... note that the designated campsites often offer work-for-stay for thru-hikers as well. (You just don't get the free meal like you do at the huts.)

- Ivy

rickb
02-02-2005, 11:24
Another thought is that having a map in the Whites is probably extra important for those who will be camping off trial. Apart from treeline considerations, there are a number of places where you could paint yourself into a corner-- best to see it coming.

For example, if a NOBO timed things to have dinner and a shower at the AMC's Pink Notch visitor center, he couldn't just walk north a 1/4 mile and pitch a tent after desert. The AT parallels the road then goes up a very steep route. To be legal, you would either have a long hard pull out of the notch, hitchhike into Gorham (not a bad idea, but you might want to wait a couple days), rent an expensive AMC room, or have to walk back the way you came (and we know that's not an option).

A map would make that obvious.

It's the kind of situation where a thru hiker might be glad his tent were not bright yellow, and one example of why even the most concientious of hikers might be tempted to camp in a Forest Protection Area (the PC name for the former term of Restricted Use Area)

Rick B

The Old Fhart
02-02-2005, 11:32
Mouse-"I could not help noticing that all of the "Protected areas" were surrounding a hut or campsite, giving the impression that the only thing really being protected was the profit margin of the AMC." If you read rickboudrie's excellent reference you will notice that these are White Mountain National Forest (USFS) rules, not the AMC’s. The huts operate by Special Use Permit within the WMNF and have to obey these rules just like everyone else.

If you read rickboudrie's reference (http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/white/recre...ntry_rules.html) you will see that there is an exhaustive list of restricted areas, not just around the huts. The fact that thru hikers only see a miniscule piece of the whole WMNF when they pass through gives them a distorted view of what the purpose of the rules are. What follows is an summery of the rules that affect thru hikers. I edited out about 90% of the rules because even though they are in the WMNF, thru hikers probably wouldn’t go there. Obviously the usual above tree line restrictions also apply.
+++++++++++++++++++
No Camping, Wood or Charcoal Fires within
1/4 mile of:
* Any hut, shelter, tent platform, cabin, picnic area or campground except at designated sites
* Any trailhead
The following special areas:
* The former site of the Beaver Brook Shelter on the AT (Rt. 112)
* Carter Dome at Zeta Pass
No Camping, Wood or Charcoal Fires within 200 feet of:
The following trails:
* Ammonoosuc Ravine Trail
* Appalachian Trail from the summit of Mt. Moosilauke to the Connecticut River (except at shelters)
* Falling Waters Trail
* Liberty Springs Trail
* Valley Way from its intersection with the Scar Trail to Madison Hut
* Wild River Trail from Wild River Campground to 1 mile south
Restrictions in Congressionally Designated Wilderness:
Great Gulf , Presidential/Dry River, Pemigewasset
* No motorized equipment or mechanical transport (wheelchairs are an exception)
* Hiking and camping group size must be limited to 10 people or less
Great Gulf , Presidential/Dry River
* No camping, wood or charcoal fires within 200 feet of any trail except at designated campsites
Additional regulations for the Great Gulf Wilderness:
* No wood or charcoal fires at any location
* No camping from the intersection of the Great Gulf and Sphinx
* Trails in the direction of Spaulding Lake
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My suggestion is to be open-minded and enjoy a work-for-stay at one of the huts, it is a positive part of the thru hiking experience for many.

shades of blue
02-02-2005, 13:46
A lot of good information...thanks! I have just a few more questions. One post mentioned dinner and a shower, then moving on to camp (why you need a map, no legal sites near there). Are you allowed to eat dinner and shower without staying at the huts. If so, is it very expensive?

Part of my reasoning is money, but a lot of the reason for wanting other sites is that I am a solo hiker, and not really used to crowded bunkrooms. That may change with this Long Distance hike with staying in more hostels. My past hikes were 1 to 3 weeks long, this one will be 12 weeks long.

The mileage issue, is me trying to think logistics for food through the whites. I want to enjoy the whites, but I don't want to carry too much extra weight. Just trying to get an idea of what I'll need.

Two more questions. I've read that most people pick up there cold weather gear right before the whites. If I'm passing through there in Late July, early August, how cold should I prepare for? My hammock gear down to 15-20 degrees? Hammock gear 35-45 degrees? I figure I'll carry my cold weather clothes, but the hammock gear is the difference in 3 pounds or so. Do you drop your cold weather gear after the whites, or keep them to Katahdin? I hope to summit (if I'm that fortunate) by Aug 20, or it will have to wait till next year.

rickb
02-02-2005, 15:40
"One post mentioned dinner and a shower, then moving on to camp (why you need a map, no legal sites near there). Are you allowed to eat dinner and shower without staying at the huts. If so, is it very expensive?"
___________

Sorry for the confusion. The short answer is don't sweat the details, everything will be real clear as you get there.

The long answer goes something like this.

You can check out what the Huts look like at www.outdoors.org. If you decide to stay at one, it will probably be a "work for stay", since they are ungodly expensive. Usually, that option is limited to just two thru hikers so you wouldn't want to count on it.

The huts all have common bunk rooms and either flush toilets or the next best thing, a Clivis Multrum. Too much detail? None have showers and they don't serve meals unless you are staying overnight. They will sell candy bars and soup and such and may have leftovers-- but best not to count on that. All are in the backcountry, and all are on great real estate.

The AMC also has two full service roadside vistor centers. These will sell you lunch and dinner even if you aren't staying there. Dinner offers a good value, but isn't cheap at all, and is only served on thier schedule. The first of the full service centers (Highland Centeer) that a NOBO might come to is off the trail-- either by a hitch or a blue blaze. It has a hostel with clean sheets, shower and a great breakfast for about $20 bucks. The second is in Pinkham Notch and does not have a hostel-- only more expensive lodging. It is a frickin' beehive of activity, but is unique in that it offers a pay shower to anyone who wants. This is the place I spoke of. The only problem with this center-- which you walk right past-- is that there are no nearby legal camping spots to its North. To the South you have to walk a ways and camp on the right side of the trail (I think). Which might explain why Wolf stealth camps in view of the front door, or why others will make a hitch into Gorham from there. (Note: You can also hitch into Gorham 2 Days dows the AT)

If you were planning your day with a map,, the reason you have limited camping options would be obvious. Just North of the Pinham Notch AMC center, the trail is too close to the road for legal camping, and where it turns away from the road it gose straigt up! I exagerate, but it seems like it.

But thats just a detail. Truth is camping off trail can be a bit of a pain from Liberty Springs on to the border. For example if you were to pass Liberty Springs late in the day you would be walking past dense narled trees, and might be wondering wher the F to set up camp and its getting dark and treeline is just ahead and.... Or some variation of that.

A map is going to give you some indication of that.

By the same token a map showing a perfectly flat trail along the stream between Zealand Falls Hut and Ethan Pond Campsite might suggest that there are plenty of free camping alternatives in the section. And you would be right.

But those are just minor details. The one section of the Trail which really requires planning is that between Mitzpah/Nauman and Osgood (free) tentsite. In that stretch you should know where you will be staying before you head out in the AM. Id start thinking of that at least a couple days in advance.

YMMV.

Rick B

rickb
02-03-2005, 12:07
"Hammock gear 35-45 degrees? I figure I'll carry my cold weather clothes, but the hammock gear is the difference in 3 pounds or so. Do you drop your cold weather gear after the whites, or keep them to Katahdin? I hope to summit (if I'm that fortunate) by Aug 20, or it will have to wait till next year."

Looks like you will be getting to the Whites before the pack

I have no experience with hammocks, but if you can be less than miserable at 35 - 45 degrees a few nights, I just can't see any problem. No doubt you will have some cool nights and summits, but my guess is that heat will be much more of a factor on your way to Maine.

That said, it has snowed every month on Mount Washington. People get in trouble with exposure with some regularity. Be smart.

Having extra clothes that will keep you dry and toasty is a good idea, it can get cold on top-- but even those cloths may well stay in your pack much more than you think. The most important thing, IMHO, is to pack such that you can be 100% sure to have dry & reasonably warm clothing when need it.

YMMV,

Rick B

shades of blue
02-03-2005, 13:18
Rick and everyone else...thanks for the info. I'm excited about this trip, and planning is part of the fun. I know that most plans fly out the window when reality sets in, but it's still good to have some idea of what you need.

Thanks again!

Youngblood
02-03-2005, 15:37
Two more questions. I've read that most people pick up there cold weather gear right before the whites. If I'm passing through there in Late July, early August, how cold should I prepare for? My hammock gear down to 15-20 degrees? Hammock gear 35-45 degrees? I figure I'll carry my cold weather clothes, but the hammock gear is the difference in 3 pounds or so. Do you drop your cold weather gear after the whites, or keep them to Katahdin? I hope to summit (if I'm that fortunate) by Aug 20, or it will have to wait till next year.
I think the conventional wisdom for nobo's is to carry cold weather gear past Roan Mtn and pick it up before the White Mtns. I would pack 20 degree hammock stuff for cold nights and be aware that this 'above tree-line' stuff can be bad news when you are wet and it is windy and cold. I saw a couple of folks in Maine get hypothermal at mid-day in July because their rain jackets failed and they didn't have rain pants (or maybe any long pants for that matter) or adequate hand/head protection. I had those things and I was fine. You might not need it but for a day or so, but when you need it... you need it.

Youngblood

MOWGLI
02-03-2005, 16:07
I think the conventional wisdom for nobo's is to carry cold weather gear past Roan Mtn and pick it up before the White Mtns.
Youngblood

You got a short memory Buddy. Don't you remember me freezin my arse off after sending my winter gear home in Pearsiburg?

Oh yeah, thanks for the sleeping bag liner. :D

shades of blue
02-03-2005, 16:43
Youngblood...
Would the 20 degree hammock gear apply to Maine as well? Thanks for the info by the way.

Youngblood
02-03-2005, 18:32
Youngblood...
Would the 20 degree hammock gear apply to Maine as well? Thanks for the info by the way.
Please realize that I'm not an expert on Maine like some of the other folks on here... I've only hiked it once. But it seems like your choice is a 40 degree setup or a 20 degree setup and if that is correct, I would take the 20 degree setup because I think the 40 degree setup is a little light. For my hiking in the southeast I consider a 20 degree setup as my winter setup, in the northeast I think a 20 degree setup is a three season setup.

Youngblood

rickb
02-03-2005, 18:50
I hope more people will chime in. Keep in mind that SOB's plan was to finish on August 20th-- that changes the equation some.

Peaks
02-03-2005, 19:06
Youngblood...
Would the 20 degree hammock gear apply to Maine as well? Thanks for the info by the way.

That all depends on when you get there. Most NOBO's arrive in Maine in September. And, in September you need to be prepared for below freezing nights.

shades of blue
02-03-2005, 21:07
Rick...you don't think people on the trail will shorten my trail name to "SOB" do you? My girlfriend probably wouldn't like that. :cool:

rickb
02-04-2005, 11:22
Here is a link showing temps on Mount Washington, by month.

http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/normals.html

weary
02-04-2005, 11:54
A lot of good information...thanks! I have just a few more questions. One post mentioned dinner and a shower, then moving on to camp (why you need a map, no legal sites near there). Are you allowed to eat dinner and shower without staying at the huts. If so, is it very expensive? ....
Except at Pinkham Notch, which is on a highway, the huts do not have showers. The fees for the high ridge huts are for meals and a bunk. Some sell soup and snacks during the day. I've never noticed prices for meals only. But the huts are mostly run by college kids and some are more flexible than others. It would do no harm to ask, but I wouldn't plan on it.

The only time I've ever stayed at the full service huts was on my walk north in 1993. I found it kind of fun and not terribly expensive, given the overall cost of a thru hike. A severe storm kept me at the Lake of the Clouds hut an extra night. I envied those who were working for their stay. The kitchen was the only warm spot in the place.

Weary

shades of blue
02-04-2005, 15:07
Weary...being from Maine and all, would you recommend cold weather gear through Maine in August(mid to early)? I've looked at the different links on weather (rick's and the ATC average), but I know that a low average of 54 or so can sometimes change to drastic drops. I'm from the South, and have a general idea of what to expect from summer weather in our mountains. This will be my first hike North of WV.
Thanks.

weary
02-04-2005, 15:53
Weary...being from Maine and all, would you recommend cold weather gear through Maine in August(mid to early)? I've looked at the different links on weather (rick's and the ATC average), but I know that a low average of 54 or so can sometimes change to drastic drops. I'm from the South, and have a general idea of what to expect from summer weather in our mountains. This will be my first hike North of WV.
Thanks.
Not really cold weather gear. But you could run into some chilly nights on the higher ridges. I usually carry a light down jacket or middle weight fleece for use on chilly evenings and to augment my 45 degree sleeping bag if needed.

Weary

shades of blue
02-04-2005, 16:00
Thanks Weary!

Peaks
02-04-2005, 18:23
Not really cold weather gear. But you could run into some chilly nights on the higher ridges. I usually carry a light down jacket or middle weight fleece for use on chilly evenings and to augment my 45 degree sleeping bag if needed.

Weary

I'll agree if it's in July & August. Later than that, and expect frosty nights and frosty mornings.

Mr. Clean
02-04-2005, 20:13
The only places to worry about in the summer months are Franconia ridge and the Presidentials, maybe Moosilauke. Some days are spectacular, others are dangerous. If inclement weather during your Presidential traverse, I'd consider staying at Lake of the Crowds hut, even though it's kinda expensive.