View Full Version : Lightning at night, lower levels in lean to?
gregpphoto
06-17-2011, 18:18
Hi all, I'm pretty familiar with lightning safety, the lightning position, all that, but I was wondering what is the recommended advice for when you are already at lower elevations but are in a lean to, especially at night trying to sleep? I know shelters provide no protection and can in fact be worse than open ground as lightning can arc across the entrance much like a small cave (also not advised). If something is close, mile or less, do I get out of the shelter with my pad and into the lightning position?
I would not, been there done that. Stay in the shelter, falling trees is another issue.
WingedMonkey
06-17-2011, 19:59
Yes you should. Hikers never get enough reasons to laugh.
Wise Old Owl
06-17-2011, 20:10
Hi all, I'm pretty familiar with lightning safety, the lightning position, all that, but I was wondering what is the recommended advice for when you are already at lower elevations but are in a lean to, especially at night trying to sleep? I know shelters provide no protection and can in fact be worse than open ground as lightning can arc across the entrance much like a small cave (also not advised). If something is close, mile or less, do I get out of the shelter with my pad and into the lightning position?
Greg- Welcome to WB and everything that you said here is just way off or you don't post well. The most important reason for a hard shelter is lightening and then wind. Raining branches can be large enough to crush a truck, so being in a hard shelter is the right thing to do. You stay in the shelter until the storm is well past. I kid you not on this - this is straight out of the playbook for the Boy Scouts.
Yes you should. Hikers never get enough reasons to laugh.
NOW THAT WAS FUNNY, I DON"T CARE WHO YOU ARE.....lol
4eyedbuzzard
06-17-2011, 20:37
Hi all, I'm pretty familiar with lightning safety
Not to be nasty, but based upon your statements, you're not.
I know shelters provide no protection and can in fact be worse than open ground as lightning can arc across the entrance much like a small cave (also not advised).
Absolutely wrong. Shelters provide a much higher degree of protection than being in the open (or in a tent or anywhere else in the woods) by being raised above the ground and by providing overhead protection from both lightning and falling trees / limbs.
If something is close, mile or less, do I get out of the shelter with my pad and into the lightning position?No.
IMO, I think he means "shelter" in the basic sense of the word; in this case, his "lean-to" is the shelter he is referring to. He mentions the possibility of lightning arcing across the entrance, so I imagine that he's picturing two poles for the lean-to as the arc points for the lightening.
Or not(?).
err..."lightning" not lightening
gregpphoto
06-17-2011, 23:19
Hmm. Then why does it say the following on the NY State dept. of health website under lightning safety tips?
"Avoid small sheds and lean-tos or partial shelters, like pavilions."
http://www.health.state.ny.us/environmental/emergency/weather/lightning/
Ohhh, maybe look into stuff before flaming me!! Shelter is a synonymous term for lean to.
gregpphoto
06-17-2011, 23:21
Plus for petes sake I even used the word lean to in my OP. A simple google search would have showed that I am correct.
Sarcasm the elf
06-17-2011, 23:52
Hmm. Then why does it say the following on the NY State dept. of health website under lightning safety tips?
"Avoid small sheds and lean-tos or partial shelters, like pavilions."
http://www.health.state.ny.us/environmental/emergency/weather/lightning/
Ohhh, maybe look into stuff before flaming me!! Shelter is a synonymous term for lean to.
With a bit of luck, the lightning might keep the killer black bears at bay.
gregpphoto
06-18-2011, 00:04
With a bit of luck, the lightning might keep the killer black bears at bay.
Hopefully it keeps elves away as well.
Sarcasm the elf
06-18-2011, 00:17
Hopefully it keeps elves away as well.
Nope, not worried about lightning or bears, if I was I'd just stay at home. :D
Seriously though, part of the beauty of backpacking is learning to let go of your fears, particularly those that are fairly low ranking on the actuarial tables.
But of course, hike your own hike. I'll poke fun at things on this site from time to time, but a the end of the day, do what's right for you.
According to ATC guidelines, in the event of lightning you should assume the fetal position in the corner of the shelter and rock back and forth. If no shelter is available you should shake your fist at God.
Sarcasm the elf
06-18-2011, 00:35
Plus for petes sake I even used the word lean to in my OP. A simple google search would have showed that I am correct.
To better explain our disconnect on the subject:
http://xkcd.com/795/
:banana :banana:banana
Trailweaver
06-18-2011, 01:43
O.K. children, play nice!
gregpphoto
06-18-2011, 06:45
Nope, not worried about lightning or bears, if I was I'd just stay at home. :D
Seriously though, part of the beauty of backpacking is learning to let go of your fears, particularly those that are fairly low ranking on the actuarial tables.
But of course, hike your own hike. I'll poke fun at things on this site from time to time, but a the end of the day, do what's right for you.
I'm not afraid of bears or snakes or any of the objective hazards. Rather, I show a healthy respect to the forces that could kill me in an instant. The fact that you'd all rather make fun of me rather than actually help shows you people dont give a flying F about anyone but yourselves.
Good day.
Toolshed
06-18-2011, 08:09
C'mon. lighten up on the guy.... Greg, we are all not this bad, but if you truly don't want to take some heat or criticism, then you have to post in the women's forum.... LOL.
Greg,
You are somewhat safe in a lean-to or shelter, given that most are built in locations where there are taller trees everywhere around it (not just next to the shelter) and shelters are usually not right on the water. You don't want to be in a clump of the tallest trees, but if you are in a forested area and much lower than all the trees around you and your shelter is not made of metal, then I think you are pretty safe (though no one is ever completely safe).
If it were a shelter on an outcropping with no trees around it, or sitting in an open meadow, with no trees around it, or it is in a large meadow in a small cluster of tall trees, then I would consider alternative measures.
From:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/ploutdoor.htm (http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/ploutdoor.htm)
LIGHTNING SAFETY TIPS
AVOID: Avoid water. Avoid all metallic objects. Avoid the high ground. Avoid solitary tall trees. Avoid close contact with others - spread out 15-20 ft. apart. Avoid contact with dissimilar objects (water & land; boat & land; rock & ground; tree & ground). Avoid open spaces.
SEEK: Seek clumps of shrubs or trees of uniform height. Seek ditches, trenches or the low ground. Seek a low, crouching position with feet together with hands on ears to minimize acoujstic shock from thunder.
KEEP: Keep a high level of safety awareness for thirty minutes after the last observed lightning or thunder.
hikerboy57
06-18-2011, 09:13
avoid the outdoors.be afraid.
Sarcasm the elf
06-18-2011, 09:49
I'm not afraid of bears or snakes or any of the objective hazards. Rather, I show a healthy respect to the forces that could kill me in an instant. The fact that you'd all rather make fun of me rather than actually help shows you people dont give a flying F about anyone but yourselves.
Good day.
Greg, I can assure you that no offense is intended. There are a number of thread topics that appear on this site time and time again and we like to have a bit of fun with them... It's all in good fun as long as you don't make the mistake of asking for peoples opinions about dog leashes ;)
Since you asked your question in earnest, here's my two cents on the subject:
If you are in a forested area, I would think that a shelter would be the safest place to be during a thunder storm. In my experience I have never seen anyone have a close call with a lightning strike while under tree cover. I have seen several people have close calls (disturbingly close calls) with trees and branches being blown down by the wind accompanying a thunderstorm. Because of this, I would say that a structure with a solid roof would be your beat bet. The only time I would really be worried about lightning is if I were caught on an exposed ridgeline during a storm.
topshelf
06-18-2011, 09:54
I'm not afraid of bears or snakes or any of the objective hazards. Rather, I show a healthy respect to the forces that could kill me in an instant. The fact that you'd all rather make fun of me rather than actually help shows you people dont give a flying F about anyone but yourselves.
Good day.
Sorry greg, you asked an honest question because there were contradictory statements from a pretty reliable source and you ran into the know-it-all dirt bag group who was never new to hiking and never had things to learn. They were born with all the knowledge they needed to hike. These are the people you avoid on the trail.
I have been out with guides, as a kid, who have suggested doing the same thing whether being in a shelter or a tent. Running into lightning in a shelter is not as common as running into lightning mid-afternoon when you are still hiking and away from any shelters. Especially when the trail is following the spine of a ridge. If you are in a shelter and lightning is extremely close I would advise getting to the back of the shelter and stay away from metal objects. You should be fine.
Now I will wait for my torching from the WB know-it-all group
hikerboy57
06-18-2011, 10:09
There are so many perceived threats on the trail that sometimes we do have a little fun with them.The only time Id be overly concerneed about lightning is on a ridgeline.Redeyes advice about getting to the rear of the shelter is good advice, as you are much better off in a shelter than anywhere outdoors when heavyv storms are around. If you are above treeline with lightning around and cant get lower, make yourself as small as possible, get away from any metal objects(jewelry, watch, knife).
Blissful
06-18-2011, 13:00
I'd take precautions about lightning above treeline. Other than that you could be killed walking along the trail by a large limb that falls from a gust of wind. Or killed in your car driving to the trailhead. Don't worry about it unless you worry about dying, then that is another subject... :)
I try and pitch my tarp under a tree, but use smaller trees if there is lighning. Still basically in the woods though, not in the open. Once in the woods, but not under the tallest trees, I think the form of shelter doesn't matter so much.
Take it from an idiot that did not frequently check forecasts and ended up in the middle of a storm between Abingdon Gap shelter and Damascus. The wind and falling branches were way more scary than the threat of lightning. Stay in the shelter.
ALLEGHENY
06-18-2011, 21:53
So a Hammock Hanger shall during a lightning storm. 1) hang in a shelter. 2) only tie off to shorter trees in low areas with taller trees all around. 3) never hang in open ground with sparse amount of trees.:-?
Now I will wait for my torching from the WB know-it-all group..............
No such group or person here :D.
I'd take precautions about lightning above treeline. Other than that you could be killed walking along the trail by a large limb that falls from a gust of wind. Or killed in your car driving to the trailhead. Don't worry about it unless you worry about dying, then that is another subject... :)
Your signature line borrowed from Muir says it all (of course, he used to climb to the tops of tall trees during lightning storms :rolleyes:). I guess they just didn't know as much as we enlightened modern folks know about lightning (or possibly more about God's care for His people ;)).
Jersey Tim
06-18-2011, 23:59
I just want to thank all participants in this thread for numerous good hearty laughs. Between statements, retorts, general attitude, and other statements which suggest that certain parties will pretend they're going away and aren't going to lurk and read on, this has been a good one. As for my constructive contribution, I'd take any general published list of lighting safety guidelines that advise against lean-tos -- such as the good, thorough one linked to by the OP -- with a big grain of salt; considering that their primary advice is "get to a real building", they obviously weren't written with distance hikers in mind, so I'll take my advice from hikers who've been through it, thanks.
Wise Old Owl
06-19-2011, 00:41
Un Believable.
Sarcasm the elf
06-19-2011, 01:17
Un Believable.
Which part? :-?
Not sure if it's something going on with the weather, or possibly the upcoming solstice, but it's been a very interesting few days on WB. Maybe we've finally all gone mad? Come to think of it, that might not be such a bad thing.
Thank you for a fantastic Fathers Day chuckle.
Giggles
Yet another 24 year old expert, who quotes the experts, who comes to a forum of experts to ask a question he believes he already knows the answer.
Yep, that couch and tv are great, nice and safe if you can avoid the heart disease.
nice troll, caught a bunch of suckers.
http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm
are you really worried about a 1/10000 chance of being struck by lightning in your life time? i find that really hard to believe, otherwise, how could you ever leave the house. and *** is the lightning position? is there really such a thing? i hiked through many thunder storms in my life, and can't say i've ever worried about being struck by lightning. if you're struck and die from it, then it was just your time. period. if this bothers you this much then you should just stay at home, really.
Life is short, don't spend it worrying about what hazard is around the next corner. :-)
Toolshed
06-19-2011, 11:05
So a Hammock Hanger shall during a lightning storm. 1) hang in a shelter. 2) only tie off to shorter trees in low areas with taller trees all around. 3) never hang in open ground with sparse amount of trees.:-?
Every hammock hanging jacka$$ (and I'm one of them) knows you tie on of these to the bottom before you go to bed.....
http://members.cox.net/ylosk/private/Antistatic/antistatic.jpg
Wise Old Owl
06-19-2011, 14:28
Which part? :-?
Not sure if it's something going on with the weather, or possibly the upcoming solstice, but it's been a very interesting few days on WB. Maybe we've finally all gone mad? Come to think of it, that might not be such a bad thing.
Honest - conflicted I am... He was a new troll and I got suckered, the best part is when he backed it with .gov handout. Yea next storm I going to walk out of the shelter and curl into a ball and kiss my feathers good bye.
We should move this to the Humor troll thread.
The other part is that Chester County looses a few kids to 11 kids each year to lightening. It's really under reported, one so far this year.
Toolshed - could you send me a set of those - I need one for each tree strap.
gregpphoto
06-23-2011, 09:39
If you are referring to me then you are an ******* of the highest caliber. I asked a serious question and only when I got dickheaded replies did I whip out the cited source (I could offer up more if needed, not just a .gov site). However, morons like you aside, I want to thank those who took the time to give a serious answer to a serious threat. Lastly, I would find nothing more poetically humorous than if you were to one day get struck. I don't want you to die, just to feel the burn and maybe lose whatever few remaining brain cells you have left. Schmuck.
Honest - conflicted I am... He was a new troll and I got suckered, the best part is when he backed it with .gov handout. Yea next storm I going to walk out of the shelter and curl into a ball and kiss my feathers good bye.
We should move this to the Humor troll thread.
The other part is that Chester County looses a few kids to 11 kids each year to lightening. It's really under reported, one so far this year.
Toolshed - could you send me a set of those - I need one for each tree strap.
TheRaven
06-23-2011, 16:43
You want fun....try riding a motorcycle in a thunderstorm....that really sucks. Generally two choices...ride or get off into a ditch. Neither one is all that preferable. I'll take hiking in a t-storm in the woods with wind any day over that.
jazzmessenger8
08-10-2011, 16:34
Do not ask questions on these forums. Almost all of the members are arrogant, belittling asses.